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	<title>Comments on: Just what the world needs&#8230; more walls!</title>
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	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/just-what-the-world-needs-more-walls.html/comment-page-1#comment-124180</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 08:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>V, 
Just my way of complimenting you on your keen observations regarding the inner workings of Israeli academia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>V,<br />
Just my way of complimenting you on your keen observations regarding the inner workings of Israeli academia.</p>
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		<title>By: VR</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/just-what-the-world-needs-more-walls.html/comment-page-1#comment-124046</link>
		<dc:creator>VR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Shmuel,  sorry for the delay replying but i have been very busy.  I have done some post doctoral studies but not a stint at an Israeli university like you.  Most of my studies have been spread out through the states and in Europe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shmuel,  sorry for the delay replying but i have been very busy.  I have done some post doctoral studies but not a stint at an Israeli university like you.  Most of my studies have been spread out through the states and in Europe.</p>
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		<title>By: tree</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/just-what-the-world-needs-more-walls.html/comment-page-1#comment-124010</link>
		<dc:creator>tree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You might also want to read this from Hass, written in 1999, well before the second intifada.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/376&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ethnic discrimination against Palestinians must end&lt;/a&gt;

Here&#039;s a snippet:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Ever since 1995, Amnesty has been protesting the demolition of homes all over the world - actions taken simply because of the inhabitants&#039; political belief or identity, including ethnic identity, in such countries as Burma, Turkey, the former Yugoslavia, and in the territories occupied by Israel. According to the present report, Israel&#039;s policy of development in the territories it captured in 1967 can be boiled down to ethnic discrimination. Nothing new, of course, yet this international human rights organization expresses shock over this fact. Moreover, the authors of this report are not overly impressed by the promise of a change in the mentality underlying the Israeli occupation, a promise that many Western governments believed would emerge from the Oslo agreements.

Since 1987, Israeli authorities have demolished at least 2,650 Palestinian homes in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem). As a result, 16,700 Palestinians, including 7,300 children, have become homeless. The report points out that the annual number of demolitions has not diminished since the declaration of principles made in 1993 and in fact has even somewhat increased to 226, despite the fact that Israel now has jurisdiction over only one-eighth of the population that was under its civilian control in the past. According to the report, Israel has manipulated, and continues to manipulate, existing procedures, laws and comprehensive construction plans in order to carry out its policy of discrimination.

Ancient Mandatory comprehensive construction plans have been used as a pretext for preventing the erection of structures in Palestinian agricultural zones. Military orders have been issued to enable extensive construction for Jews only. An Ottoman law from 1855 has been distorted in order to permit the confiscation of uncultivated land: The original law spoke of the transfer of land to other inhabitants of the same village so that they could cultivate it, yet Israel has automatically taken hold of these lands for itself, that is, for its Jewish inhabitants.

According to Amnesty International, the Oslo accords have created an &quot;archipelago&quot; of 227 islands (cities and villages) under civilian Palestinian control (areas A and B), within a sea of Israeli control (area C, which includes more than 70 percent of the West Bank). In this archipelago, there are 190 &quot;islands&quot; measuring less than two square kilometers and they comprise, more or less, the built-up area of each village. Only 40,000 Palestinians live within area C; however, all Palestinians live within six or less kilometers of it. One of the lawyers quoted in the report states that, since Oslo, all of the 200 applications for building permits submitted to the CA have been rejected. During that same period, Amnesty learned, 79 building permits were issued for area C. In Amnesty&#039;s eyes, this policy is tantamount to paralyzing any possibility of legally authorized expansion. Even if we forget for a moment that area C is an integral part of every Palestinian community on the West Bank, the natural increase alone of the population in area C would necessitate the granting of 1,200 - not 79 - building permits during that four-year period.

There is no connection, the report indicates, between planning considerations and the demolition of homes. On the West Bank and in East Jerusalem, building permits for Palestinians entail bureaucratic mazes that are - deliberately - impossible. In Jerusalem, the Israeli authorities&#039; goal, &quot;since then has been to transform the ethnic character of the annexed area from Arab to Jewish.&quot;  &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might also want to read this from Hass, written in 1999, well before the second intifada.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/376" rel="nofollow">Ethnic discrimination against Palestinians must end</a></p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a snippet:</p>
<blockquote><p>Ever since 1995, Amnesty has been protesting the demolition of homes all over the world &#8211; actions taken simply because of the inhabitants&#8217; political belief or identity, including ethnic identity, in such countries as Burma, Turkey, the former Yugoslavia, and in the territories occupied by Israel. According to the present report, Israel&#8217;s policy of development in the territories it captured in 1967 can be boiled down to ethnic discrimination. Nothing new, of course, yet this international human rights organization expresses shock over this fact. Moreover, the authors of this report are not overly impressed by the promise of a change in the mentality underlying the Israeli occupation, a promise that many Western governments believed would emerge from the Oslo agreements.</p>
<p>Since 1987, Israeli authorities have demolished at least 2,650 Palestinian homes in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem). As a result, 16,700 Palestinians, including 7,300 children, have become homeless. The report points out that the annual number of demolitions has not diminished since the declaration of principles made in 1993 and in fact has even somewhat increased to 226, despite the fact that Israel now has jurisdiction over only one-eighth of the population that was under its civilian control in the past. According to the report, Israel has manipulated, and continues to manipulate, existing procedures, laws and comprehensive construction plans in order to carry out its policy of discrimination.</p>
<p>Ancient Mandatory comprehensive construction plans have been used as a pretext for preventing the erection of structures in Palestinian agricultural zones. Military orders have been issued to enable extensive construction for Jews only. An Ottoman law from 1855 has been distorted in order to permit the confiscation of uncultivated land: The original law spoke of the transfer of land to other inhabitants of the same village so that they could cultivate it, yet Israel has automatically taken hold of these lands for itself, that is, for its Jewish inhabitants.</p>
<p>According to Amnesty International, the Oslo accords have created an &#8220;archipelago&#8221; of 227 islands (cities and villages) under civilian Palestinian control (areas A and B), within a sea of Israeli control (area C, which includes more than 70 percent of the West Bank). In this archipelago, there are 190 &#8220;islands&#8221; measuring less than two square kilometers and they comprise, more or less, the built-up area of each village. Only 40,000 Palestinians live within area C; however, all Palestinians live within six or less kilometers of it. One of the lawyers quoted in the report states that, since Oslo, all of the 200 applications for building permits submitted to the CA have been rejected. During that same period, Amnesty learned, 79 building permits were issued for area C. In Amnesty&#8217;s eyes, this policy is tantamount to paralyzing any possibility of legally authorized expansion. Even if we forget for a moment that area C is an integral part of every Palestinian community on the West Bank, the natural increase alone of the population in area C would necessitate the granting of 1,200 &#8211; not 79 &#8211; building permits during that four-year period.</p>
<p>There is no connection, the report indicates, between planning considerations and the demolition of homes. On the West Bank and in East Jerusalem, building permits for Palestinians entail bureaucratic mazes that are &#8211; deliberately &#8211; impossible. In Jerusalem, the Israeli authorities&#8217; goal, &#8220;since then has been to transform the ethnic character of the annexed area from Arab to Jewish.&#8221;  </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: tree</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/just-what-the-world-needs-more-walls.html/comment-page-1#comment-124006</link>
		<dc:creator>tree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10997#comment-124006</guid>
		<description>Correction, yonira:

&lt;blockquote&gt;If there were checkpoints pre-2002 there’d be 5 US students who instead of being in coffins would be living a normal life. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

contains a falsehood. There were numerous checkpoints prior to 2002.
  
   Israel instituted a closure system in the occupied territories starting in 1991, prior to Oslo, more than ten years before the suicide bombing at the university. This system got ever more restrictive during the Oslo years, leading to economic distress and frustration on the part of Palestinians which culminated in the initial outbreak of the  second intifada in October 2000 .  This was met immediately by Israeli militay violence, the firing of over one million IDF bullets in the first few weeks of the uprising, an increase in checkpoints, and  a military seige of most Palestinian towns well before the first suicide bomber struck in February of 2001.  Checkpoints, closure, land confiscation, house demolitions, restrictions on water, etc,  was going on for decades in the occupied territories before the first Palestinian  suicide bomber struck Israel.

  Its much more likely that those 5 US students wold have been alive  today if there HADN&#039;T been checkpoints, and the other oppressive restrictions on the rights of the Palestinians.

  Amira Hass has a very detailed history of the origins of the policy here:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://dominiquedubosc.org/TEXTES/PALES/pales04uk.pdf?-session=natio:59BE5D7E8F54758535D28BE3C6FA29DE&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;
ISRAEL&#039;S CLOSURE POLICY: AN INEFFECTIVE STRATEGY OF CONTAINMENT AND REPRESSION&lt;/a&gt;   Its long but quite informative if you really want to understand the policy and its consequences.  I&#039;d recommend you read it, yonira.  It would go a long way towards explaining issues that could inform you. It was written in early 2002,  months before the July 2002 bombing, and explains how the Israeli closure system started in 1991 and was expanded during the Oslo years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction, yonira:</p>
<blockquote><p>If there were checkpoints pre-2002 there’d be 5 US students who instead of being in coffins would be living a normal life. </p></blockquote>
<p>contains a falsehood. There were numerous checkpoints prior to 2002.</p>
<p>   Israel instituted a closure system in the occupied territories starting in 1991, prior to Oslo, more than ten years before the suicide bombing at the university. This system got ever more restrictive during the Oslo years, leading to economic distress and frustration on the part of Palestinians which culminated in the initial outbreak of the  second intifada in October 2000 .  This was met immediately by Israeli militay violence, the firing of over one million IDF bullets in the first few weeks of the uprising, an increase in checkpoints, and  a military seige of most Palestinian towns well before the first suicide bomber struck in February of 2001.  Checkpoints, closure, land confiscation, house demolitions, restrictions on water, etc,  was going on for decades in the occupied territories before the first Palestinian  suicide bomber struck Israel.</p>
<p>  Its much more likely that those 5 US students wold have been alive  today if there HADN&#8217;T been checkpoints, and the other oppressive restrictions on the rights of the Palestinians.</p>
<p>  Amira Hass has a very detailed history of the origins of the policy here:<br />
<a href="http://dominiquedubosc.org/TEXTES/PALES/pales04uk.pdf?-session=natio:59BE5D7E8F54758535D28BE3C6FA29DE" rel="nofollow"><br />
ISRAEL&#8217;S CLOSURE POLICY: AN INEFFECTIVE STRATEGY OF CONTAINMENT AND REPRESSION</a>   Its long but quite informative if you really want to understand the policy and its consequences.  I&#8217;d recommend you read it, yonira.  It would go a long way towards explaining issues that could inform you. It was written in early 2002,  months before the July 2002 bombing, and explains how the Israeli closure system started in 1991 and was expanded during the Oslo years.</p>
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		<title>By: James Bradley</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/just-what-the-world-needs-more-walls.html/comment-page-1#comment-124005</link>
		<dc:creator>James Bradley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10997#comment-124005</guid>
		<description>Yonira your so full of ---- its ridiculous. 

I&#039;ve been to Israel, lived there for a few months actually. I&#039;ll admit that Tel-Aviv is a nice city and the attitude of the people there is far different from that of Israelis in places like Jerusalam or even Haifa. BUT that difference is more due to apathy and a hedonistic attitude rather than a feeling of good will towards the people they are subjugating. It reminded me of my visit to Khartoum, where the Sudanese people living in the capital acted like they had no idea about what was going on in Darfur. 

In any case &quot;Arab-Israeli&#039;s&quot; are treated like animals in Israel. The lucky ones are allowed to do manual labor type jobs like pick up your trash, clean your homes, or sit on the corner begging for any type of work. 

Israel is easily the most racist country I&#039;ve ever visited in my life, and I&#039;ve seen quite a few countries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yonira your so full of &#8212;- its ridiculous. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been to Israel, lived there for a few months actually. I&#8217;ll admit that Tel-Aviv is a nice city and the attitude of the people there is far different from that of Israelis in places like Jerusalam or even Haifa. BUT that difference is more due to apathy and a hedonistic attitude rather than a feeling of good will towards the people they are subjugating. It reminded me of my visit to Khartoum, where the Sudanese people living in the capital acted like they had no idea about what was going on in Darfur. </p>
<p>In any case &#8220;Arab-Israeli&#8217;s&#8221; are treated like animals in Israel. The lucky ones are allowed to do manual labor type jobs like pick up your trash, clean your homes, or sit on the corner begging for any type of work. </p>
<p>Israel is easily the most racist country I&#8217;ve ever visited in my life, and I&#8217;ve seen quite a few countries.</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/just-what-the-world-needs-more-walls.html/comment-page-1#comment-124004</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10997#comment-124004</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t worry about it, Danaa.  I&#039;ve been called that and worse :-)

To use your wonderful metaphor, while at HU, I was kind of groggy, just before my first cuppa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t worry about it, Danaa.  I&#8217;ve been called that and worse :-)</p>
<p>To use your wonderful metaphor, while at HU, I was kind of groggy, just before my first cuppa.</p>
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		<title>By: LeaNder</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/just-what-the-world-needs-more-walls.html/comment-page-1#comment-124002</link>
		<dc:creator>LeaNder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10997#comment-124002</guid>
		<description>He lives in Italy, if memory serves me well.  Although it strictly doesn&#039;t matter. Gone again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He lives in Italy, if memory serves me well.  Although it strictly doesn&#8217;t matter. Gone again.</p>
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		<title>By: Danaa</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/just-what-the-world-needs-more-walls.html/comment-page-1#comment-123999</link>
		<dc:creator>Danaa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=10997#comment-123999</guid>
		<description>Shmuel - my mad ramble above about traitors and such does not apply to you, just in case you wonder. Yonira&#039;s comment caught me before my first morning coffee. Some posters should never be glimpsed at certain times of the day..

Your stay at the university will qualify you as &quot;witness for the persecution&quot;, when the time comes. Sounds like you know first hand the seduction that apartheid can be for the class that benefits. BTW, at the time you studied there, did you already have the opinions you have now or were you still in a state of blissful slumber ?(maybe I shouldn&#039;t ask - no need to answer. I realize there are humans who never slumber...alas, I have to admit I did. For quite a while too. Maybe that&#039;s why the occasional vehemence - it&#039;s like before that first coffee, spiritually speaking).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shmuel &#8211; my mad ramble above about traitors and such does not apply to you, just in case you wonder. Yonira&#8217;s comment caught me before my first morning coffee. Some posters should never be glimpsed at certain times of the day..</p>
<p>Your stay at the university will qualify you as &#8220;witness for the persecution&#8221;, when the time comes. Sounds like you know first hand the seduction that apartheid can be for the class that benefits. BTW, at the time you studied there, did you already have the opinions you have now or were you still in a state of blissful slumber ?(maybe I shouldn&#8217;t ask &#8211; no need to answer. I realize there are humans who never slumber&#8230;alas, I have to admit I did. For quite a while too. Maybe that&#8217;s why the occasional vehemence &#8211; it&#8217;s like before that first coffee, spiritually speaking).</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/just-what-the-world-needs-more-walls.html/comment-page-1#comment-123996</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>No, Yonira.  I am not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, Yonira.  I am not.</p>
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		<title>By: yonira</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/just-what-the-world-needs-more-walls.html/comment-page-1#comment-123994</link>
		<dc:creator>yonira</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Shmuel,  are you still in Israel?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shmuel,  are you still in Israel?</p>
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