Comments on: Nakba never ends

By: potsherd

potsherd — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 03:00:08 +0000

While I understand the temptation of moral equivalence, there is still the fact that the Palestinians were already inhabiting the land, and the Zionists came to take it from them by any means, including force.

By: Chaos4700

Chaos4700 — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 01:50:32 +0000

One thing to keep in mind, and it bears repeating: There were non-Israeli, non-Zionist Jews in Palestine before Israel. The Israel/Zionism phenomenon is primarily of European manufacture — the original Zionists of Israel were overwhelmingly Europeans, and immigration of other Middle Eastern Jews to Israel only came with inducements from Israel — which sometimes took the form of false flag attacks, like the Lavon affair.

So there isn’t a direct moral or philosophical equivalence between Palestinians and Jews. Palestinians comprise a traditional culture and national identity, analogous to those of any modern nation. Israelis, on the other hand, are by and large not unified by anything other than Zionism — realistically, they aren’t even unified by Judaism, considering the tensions between secular Israelis, Orthodox pro-settler Israelis, Haredim, etc. They don’t share family ties, generational ties to the land, an established culture and language, etc. the way Palestinians do.

So therefore, I’m not sure it is actually fair to equate Israeli and Palestinian attitudes.

By: MHughes976

MHughes976 — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 00:48:07 +0000

I’m sorry to see the abusive comments.
I would have thought that it’s the Palestinians who lack democratic – or any kind of political – voice that anyone listens to.
The basic proposition of Zionism, I think, is that sovereignty over the Holy Land belongs by right (s0me say God bestowed this right, some say there was a human process) only to Jewish people, to others only by concession. So it’s deeply desirable for others not to be there, or to be there only in small numbers, so that concessions are affordable. The Palestinians surely reciprocate this view: to them the Israeli Jews are usurpers, which means that it’s morally wrong for them to be there except perhaps as a small remainder, which means that their absence must be deeply desired, though no doubt the Palestinians would accept much less in those serious negotiations that never happen.
Most people in the West think that a solution through the mass transfer of either population just cannot be done, which is probably true. To assist ourselves with this problem of two groups who much desire, but cannot obtain, each other’s absence we Westerners seem to have convinced ourselves that both groups are present by right, though it’s quite hard to explain why there are two kinds of right, evidently in some conflict but both essentially valid.

By: Cliff

Cliff — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:53:47 +0000

Witty employs the all too typical Zionist tactic of emotional blackmail (poor poor Juice).

No it has nothing to do w/ thinking Jews are ‘unworthy’ you dumb yuppie.

It has to do w/ the fact that your Jewish country club only exists through atrocity and lies and ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population.

But yea, I’m sure the Palestinians stay up awake at night not because of the occupation and that Zionist thugs and Jewish fundamentalists terrorizing them daily – but because they think ‘the Juice’ are ‘unworthy’ of a democratic voice.

You’re such a fucking Nazi, it’s astounding.

You have to be superficial. Like the fucking weasel you are.

By: Colin Murray

Colin Murray — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:38:35 +0000

Cliff, calling people ‘Nazi trash’ is not acceptable.

By: Chaos4700

Chaos4700 — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 14:13:19 +0000

Wow, Witty and the rest of the Zionists blaming Palestinians for everything that’s gone wrong and never once confronting Israel’s ongoing ethnic cleansing? Gee, what a shocking twist.

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:23:09 +0000

That observation is undeniable. Only those that regard the Jewish majority as unworthy of a democratic voice, ignores that.

By: wondering jew

wondering jew — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 10:30:07 +0000

Whereas the first intifadeh opened the Israeli center to the possibility of a two state solution, the second intifadeh closed them to it. And the withdrawal from Gaza and the continued shelling of Sderot and environs proved the point.

Granted those who were pro Palestinian from the start view the second intifadeh and the withdrawal from Gaza from a different perspective. But the harm that the second intifadeh and the Gaza withdrawal did to the hardening of the worldview of the Israeli center is substantial.

By: Tuyzentfloot

Tuyzentfloot — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:26:52 +0000

People don’t want to be morally wrong – and they’re capable of coming up with the wackiest justifications to avoid this. So you get the following mechanics: the basic concept is “only us”, but that doesn’t sound right enough. Modified version: we have no problem with Palestinians at all, as long as they leave us alone. “leaving alone” means to be far away. You don’t want to expel them unprovoked because that would be morally wrong. This leaves -at least- two public tracks: the nice track is to make it easy and attractive for Palestinians to leave. A poll asking “wouldn’t it be nice if Palestinians left voluntarily” will get many votes. The angry track is that you wouldn’t use force normally but all the bad things they’ve done leave you no other choice – it’s self defence. Results of a poll then will vary wildly depending on whether these tracks are activated, whether responsibility is taken away. The task of the policymakers then is to take away responsibility.

There is a huge difference between “only us” and wanting to be accepted. I see no sign of any desire to be accepted by the neighboring countries.

By: Chaos4700

Chaos4700 — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 03:27:37 +0000

“Start?” There are already UN resolutions condemning deportations of Palestinians from their own country by the Israeli occupation. We’re already seeing it in progress, in East Jerusalem in particular and the West Bank in general, and we’re seeing the darker edge of the real stormfront over Gaza. The ethnic cleansing is already happening.

Otherwise I agree with you 100%. I’d love to see the same rules applied to the rest of the world applied to Israel. Dealing with Israeli pirates the way we’ve dealt with Somali pirates, for another.