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	<title>Comments on: Podhoretz likens Obama to false messiah who converted to Islam</title>
	<atom:link href="http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/podhoretz-likens-obama-to-false-messiah-who-converted-to-islam.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/podhoretz-likens-obama-to-false-messiah-who-converted-to-islam.html</link>
	<description>The War of Ideas in the Middle East</description>
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		<title>By: wondering jew</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/podhoretz-likens-obama-to-false-messiah-who-converted-to-islam.html/comment-page-1#comment-125549</link>
		<dc:creator>wondering jew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Phil Weiss- There certainly is a distance between worshipping the Merkava tank and advocating the dissolution of Israel.   Many defenders of Israel&#039;s right to exist do not worship the Merkava tank.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil Weiss- There certainly is a distance between worshipping the Merkava tank and advocating the dissolution of Israel.   Many defenders of Israel&#8217;s right to exist do not worship the Merkava tank.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: wondering jew</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/podhoretz-likens-obama-to-false-messiah-who-converted-to-islam.html/comment-page-1#comment-125546</link>
		<dc:creator>wondering jew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I am not an expert on Shabtai Zvi, but I think most experts agree that originally his conversion to Islam was not meant as a strategem but was merely the preference for life over death.  Later he developed the &quot;philosophy&quot; that the conversion was part of his work to descend into the depths of impurity and thus to purify those depths as part of his Messianic &quot;task&quot;.  Thus what Shabtai was really about can be divided in two: what he was really about before the conversion and what he was really about after the conversion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not an expert on Shabtai Zvi, but I think most experts agree that originally his conversion to Islam was not meant as a strategem but was merely the preference for life over death.  Later he developed the &#8220;philosophy&#8221; that the conversion was part of his work to descend into the depths of impurity and thus to purify those depths as part of his Messianic &#8220;task&#8221;.  Thus what Shabtai was really about can be divided in two: what he was really about before the conversion and what he was really about after the conversion.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: wondering jew</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/podhoretz-likens-obama-to-false-messiah-who-converted-to-islam.html/comment-page-1#comment-125543</link>
		<dc:creator>wondering jew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:52:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=11210#comment-125543</guid>
		<description>There are three commandments over which a Jew is supposed to die rather than commit: 1. Foreign worship, 2. murder and 3. adultery.

Whereas Christianity involves a lessening of monotheism involved in the doctrine of a trinity, the acceptance of Christianity is considered to be an abrogation in the commandment to avoid all foreign worship and therefore to die is preferred to conversion.  The acceptance of Islam is a different story because Islam is monotheistic and thus certain communities accepted Islam when confronted with the choice between the sword and conversion.

(As the leader of a Messianic movement, Shabtai Tzvi&#039;s &quot;obligations&quot; regarding accepting Islam or converting might have differed from those of ordinary Jews.)

The general law regarding the choice between conversion and abrogating one of these three sins can be found in Maimonides&#039; the laws of the Basics of the Torah (Hilkhot Yesodei Hatorah) in the Fifth chapter.

Obviously the fighting of wars in which innocents are killed raises questions about this supposed preference for death rather than abrogating these laws.

Orthodox Jews believe in heaven, but I&#039;m not sure if heaven is assured to one who chooses death over abrogating these laws; (does it outweigh a previously sinful life).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are three commandments over which a Jew is supposed to die rather than commit: 1. Foreign worship, 2. murder and 3. adultery.</p>
<p>Whereas Christianity involves a lessening of monotheism involved in the doctrine of a trinity, the acceptance of Christianity is considered to be an abrogation in the commandment to avoid all foreign worship and therefore to die is preferred to conversion.  The acceptance of Islam is a different story because Islam is monotheistic and thus certain communities accepted Islam when confronted with the choice between the sword and conversion.</p>
<p>(As the leader of a Messianic movement, Shabtai Tzvi&#8217;s &#8220;obligations&#8221; regarding accepting Islam or converting might have differed from those of ordinary Jews.)</p>
<p>The general law regarding the choice between conversion and abrogating one of these three sins can be found in Maimonides&#8217; the laws of the Basics of the Torah (Hilkhot Yesodei Hatorah) in the Fifth chapter.</p>
<p>Obviously the fighting of wars in which innocents are killed raises questions about this supposed preference for death rather than abrogating these laws.</p>
<p>Orthodox Jews believe in heaven, but I&#8217;m not sure if heaven is assured to one who chooses death over abrogating these laws; (does it outweigh a previously sinful life).</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/podhoretz-likens-obama-to-false-messiah-who-converted-to-islam.html/comment-page-1#comment-125475</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=11210#comment-125475</guid>
		<description>Shabbatai Tsvi was an embarrassment within Jewish history, for his conversion primarily. MANY felt betrayed by it. Many others stated &quot;I told you so&quot;. I don&#039;t know his teachings well enough to comment on any element of it.

The parallel is that Podhoretz is stating that the admiration of Obama is a drunkenness, the absence of sobriety.

Let him think what he wants.

Practically still, peace is possible only with acceptance of the other, and affirmation of that mutual acceptance in treaty, commitment to continue mutual acceptance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shabbatai Tsvi was an embarrassment within Jewish history, for his conversion primarily. MANY felt betrayed by it. Many others stated &#8220;I told you so&#8221;. I don&#8217;t know his teachings well enough to comment on any element of it.</p>
<p>The parallel is that Podhoretz is stating that the admiration of Obama is a drunkenness, the absence of sobriety.</p>
<p>Let him think what he wants.</p>
<p>Practically still, peace is possible only with acceptance of the other, and affirmation of that mutual acceptance in treaty, commitment to continue mutual acceptance.</p>
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		<title>By: MRW</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/podhoretz-likens-obama-to-false-messiah-who-converted-to-islam.html/comment-page-1#comment-125390</link>
		<dc:creator>MRW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=11210#comment-125390</guid>
		<description>The three guys who did the Armenian Genocide were Doenmeh Jews from Salonica as well: the Bey Boys. Ambassador Henry Morgenthau wrote about them to President Wilson in 1916, and detailed their study of medieval torture, and how they were “exterminating a people.” Copy available in the The London Times archives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The three guys who did the Armenian Genocide were Doenmeh Jews from Salonica as well: the Bey Boys. Ambassador Henry Morgenthau wrote about them to President Wilson in 1916, and detailed their study of medieval torture, and how they were “exterminating a people.” Copy available in the The London Times archives.</p>
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		<title>By: MRW</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/podhoretz-likens-obama-to-false-messiah-who-converted-to-islam.html/comment-page-1#comment-125386</link>
		<dc:creator>MRW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I found an accurate copy of Hillel Halkin&#039;s article written in  January 1994 here:
http://report-abuse.lahana.org/blog/SHEMA%20YISRAEL.htm

It is the same as the one you can buy from Highbeam Research, unlike other copies I&#039;ve seen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found an accurate copy of Hillel Halkin&#8217;s article written in  January 1994 here:<br />
<a href="http://report-abuse.lahana.org/blog/SHEMA%20YISRAEL.htm">link to report-abuse.lahana.org</a></p>
<p>It is the same as the one you can buy from Highbeam Research, unlike other copies I&#8217;ve seen.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: MRW</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/podhoretz-likens-obama-to-false-messiah-who-converted-to-islam.html/comment-page-1#comment-125385</link>
		<dc:creator>MRW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Podhoretz and his band of merry extremist right-wing Jews (a la the Republican Jewish Coalition in concert with Danny Ayalon) are the genesis of the Obama as Muslim meme and all those hideous emails during the primary.

They&#039;re a bunch of treasonous phucks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Podhoretz and his band of merry extremist right-wing Jews (a la the Republican Jewish Coalition in concert with Danny Ayalon) are the genesis of the Obama as Muslim meme and all those hideous emails during the primary.</p>
<p>They&#8217;re a bunch of treasonous phucks.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: MRW</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/podhoretz-likens-obama-to-false-messiah-who-converted-to-islam.html/comment-page-1#comment-125384</link>
		<dc:creator>MRW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=11210#comment-125384</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Shabbatai shattered all their illusions and converted to Islam&lt;/i&gt;

Bullshit. Podhoretz either needs to read history, or stop with the dininfo campaign to fool American Jews and all their supporters. That is not what Shabbatai was about. He was for deception. He recommended being Moslem on the outside and Jewish at home. They are known as Doenmeh Jews or crypto-Jews. Kemal Ataturk of Turkey was one; reason why he would not allow the Muslim religion as a state religion in Turkey.

Read Hillel Halkin&#039;s piece here about Ataturk. Halkin&#039;s first article about Ataturk was written in January 1994 for The Forward from Zichron Yaacov, when Halkin was their Israeli correspondent, but The Forward scorched it from its archives, and got Lexis-Nexis to remove it as well. You can only find the original on Highbeam Research for a fee. You might be able to get a copy of a copy if you search Google with the original title “When Kemal Ataturk recited Shema Yisrael.”

Halkin&#039;s July 25, 2007 piece in The New York Sun is here:
http://www.nysun.com/opinion/ataturks-turkey-overturned/58997/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Shabbatai shattered all their illusions and converted to Islam</i></p>
<p>Bullshit. Podhoretz either needs to read history, or stop with the dininfo campaign to fool American Jews and all their supporters. That is not what Shabbatai was about. He was for deception. He recommended being Moslem on the outside and Jewish at home. They are known as Doenmeh Jews or crypto-Jews. Kemal Ataturk of Turkey was one; reason why he would not allow the Muslim religion as a state religion in Turkey.</p>
<p>Read Hillel Halkin&#8217;s piece here about Ataturk. Halkin&#8217;s first article about Ataturk was written in January 1994 for The Forward from Zichron Yaacov, when Halkin was their Israeli correspondent, but The Forward scorched it from its archives, and got Lexis-Nexis to remove it as well. You can only find the original on Highbeam Research for a fee. You might be able to get a copy of a copy if you search Google with the original title “When Kemal Ataturk recited Shema Yisrael.”</p>
<p>Halkin&#8217;s July 25, 2007 piece in The New York Sun is here:<br />
<a href="http://www.nysun.com/opinion/ataturks-turkey-overturned/58997/">link to nysun.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mooser</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/podhoretz-likens-obama-to-false-messiah-who-converted-to-islam.html/comment-page-1#comment-125357</link>
		<dc:creator>Mooser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mondoweiss.net/?p=11210#comment-125357</guid>
		<description>Geez, Richard, and I thought you were gonna shoot me right down with &quot;Rabbi Ben Eliezer M&#039;chim Pim Shmya, &lt;i&gt;edicts of the Jewish Central Committee, 190-5 through 15,&lt;/i&gt; On the Necessity of Martyrdom  vs.  Conversion&quot;

I&#039;m sure the citation is unfamiliar to you, you &lt;i&gt;paskudnik!&lt;/i&gt;  Squatting on prayer rugs in Tebetan monasteries and chanting &quot;Ohm&quot; instead of &lt;i&gt;davaning&lt;/i&gt; and studying Torah!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geez, Richard, and I thought you were gonna shoot me right down with &#8220;Rabbi Ben Eliezer M&#8217;chim Pim Shmya, <i>edicts of the Jewish Central Committee, 190-5 through 15,</i> On the Necessity of Martyrdom  vs.  Conversion&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure the citation is unfamiliar to you, you <i>paskudnik!</i>  Squatting on prayer rugs in Tebetan monasteries and chanting &#8220;Ohm&#8221; instead of <i>davaning</i> and studying Torah!</p>
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		<title>By: Mooser</title>
		<link>http://mondoweiss.net/2009/11/podhoretz-likens-obama-to-false-messiah-who-converted-to-islam.html/comment-page-1#comment-125350</link>
		<dc:creator>Mooser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;“Why are Jews liberal” generally except when it comes to Israel . That is the question I have been asking friends for 35 years&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I bet you&#039;re a blast at parties. Don&#039;t forget to duck, there will be canards flying everywhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;“Why are Jews liberal” generally except when it comes to Israel . That is the question I have been asking friends for 35 years&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I bet you&#8217;re a blast at parties. Don&#8217;t forget to duck, there will be canards flying everywhere.</p>
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