Your arguments and posts have been simply masterful.

@ Witty

I have read your post Witty and find that you are either inattentive to the evidence I brought forth or have deliberately ignored it because it contradicts the modern Zionist claim of being the victim all the time. You make a rather interesting claim about the Caliphate: “Liveable, if you obeyed. If you didn’t, not so liveable” But isnt this the case for any people under any government. If you and I decide to not obey the loves of the USA, then we will find our lives quickly being not so liveable. Your argument seems more of a rhetorical flourish than an actual argument.

@ Shmuel

You also said something interesting (although not as far out as Witty’s, to be fair). You say: ” I could easily suggest a parallel model based on Jewish law, and I’m sure that someone versed in Canon Law could do the same. ” My answer to this is then please do. Show us a conceptual link where Jewish values expressed during Jewish rule led to results similar to the Caliphate. As for Christian canon law, it is debatable if Christians even have a scriptual-based legal system since Christianity is very secular in nature. “Give Caesar what is unto Caesar and Give God what is unto God (Gospel of Mark). Besides, when Christian canon law did rule , it resulted in something called the Dark Ages of Europe. As a matter of fact, Liberalism and Humanism were reactions againts this Christian rule. Also, is there not tension between your above statement and this other statement you made: “The late Prof. David Flusser sugested that had Judaism ever wielded the power that Christianity had, it would probably have been at least as brutal”. Assuming that you agree with Prof. Flusser, how can you say that you can easily give us a parellel model with that of the Caliphate’s?

Petrified–of wasting time. There’s nothing of any special interest to me in the history of Zionism as such or any other form of nationalism (including the Palestinian variety), though I have read some in both areas. And to be honest, much of it is boring. Political movements often are. I’m aware of the institution building aspect of the movement, the parts that are admirable, or would be if the question of Palestinian rights didn’t hang over the whole subject. What interests me in the subject, on both sides, are the human rights issues. Who did what to whom. Who killed, who stole, who oppressed, who lied about it afterwards. Needless to say there are killers on both sides. And, oh yes, it’s also interesting to read about the people who had good intentions, but I get a sense of that in books books I’ve already read. I doubt that anything in the Sachar book is going to fundamentally change one’s view of the conflict, unless one had a view of Zionists as all demon figures from some far left morality play, but then, the books I’ve already read don’t paint that picture anyway. And Sachar’s book isn’t going to change what I know already about 1948 or what happened later.

Seriously, why do you do this? I’m genuinely curious. There is no dearth of Palestinians here in the states.

I forwarded the exchange regarding “despicable” to you.

Ibish is a big boy and can handle being called despicable , he has called people much, much worse.

I don’t think I have to many “red lines” Phil, it’s not extreme to be appalled by someone who claims to speak for the Palestinian people on the one hand and then support criminal, undemocratic and corrupt people as leaders of the Palestinian people on the other–and that’s what Ibish does.

I can’t assume the responsibility of being the show case Arab though, I mean that I don’t want to be the “model” for how a Palestinian should behave in discourse with soft Zionists like Ibish. All that I want to be responsible for is my own opinion on the news in how it relates to Palestinians, nothing more.

I don’t mean to diminish the reality of discrimination against African Americans in America, but the parallel isn’t very convincing. Is there a Palestinian equivalent of Oprah Winfrey in Israel? Of Bill Cosby or the incredible number of black entertainers? Of black athletes? There is a large number of black millionaires in America, and a few billionaires. Is that true of Palestinians in Israel?

Black Americans aren’t represented proportionally in politics in America, though they are certainly far ahead of the representation that Palestinians have in “democratic” Jewish Israel. And they are way ahead of Palestinians as far as having representation in cultural “elite” circles. There’s simply no comparison.

Despite the enormous number of blacks living in poverty, there is nevertheless an incredible number of highly successful black Americans in business, media, the arts, education, etc. There is no comparable number of Palestinians living such a life in Israel. Would Israeli society embrace a Palestinian the way Oprah has been embraced by much of America?

There is an equally disastrous poor white population in America that parallels the poor black population (and Hispanic and others). America is very class-based, though it pretends not to be. The same is true in Israel: there are many poor Jews. The difference is that in Israel, there has been no effective civil rights movement for Palestinians like there has been for blacks in America, a movement that has allowed a large number of African Americans (and other communities, most notably Hispanic) to move into more “elite” circles. The Palestinians suffer a double whammy in Israel: class and ethnic/religious persecution.