Remember when this story came out earlier this year and Israel denied it? The Washington Report did a big piece about it, by Alison Weir, yet the Israel lobbyists said it was an anti-Semitic canard. Myself I say it’s further evidence of this great challenge in Jewish history, learning respect for the other.
From the Associated Press, Jerusalem: "Israel harvested organs in ’90s without permission":
Israel has admitted that in the 1990s, its forensic pathologists harvested organs from dead bodies, including Palestinians, without permission of their families.
The issue emerged with publication of an interview with the then-head of Israel’s Abu Kabir forensic institute, Dr. Jehuda Hiss. The interview was conducted in 2000 by an American academic, who released it because of a huge controversy last summer over an allegation by a Swedish newspaper that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to harvest their organs. Israel hotly denied the charge.
Parts of the interview were broadcast on Israel’s Channel 2 TV over the weekend. In it, Hiss said, "We started to harvest corneas … Whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family."
The Channel 2 report said that in the 1990s, forensic specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.
The Swedish journalists accusation is DIFFERENT than what you are reporting.
Please be more careful.
“So much for a canard”????
So has Israel been harvesting organs from Palestinians, or haven’t they?
A blood libel, even.
Because ANY SUGGESTION THAT A JEW WOULD EVER DO SUCH A THING must be pure anti-semitism.
Why should Phil be more careful? As usual he posted the article article without reading it. He’s told us many times that he’s a terrible reader.
Wow, Witty and OJ on the same side of a discussion mercilessly ripping into Weiss instead of talking about the fact that Israel has been harvesting organs from Palestinians. Who could have seen that surprising plot twist coming?
The article stated that Israeli scientists did the equivalent of grave-robbing, NOT of singling out Palestinians.
There is a difference, or do you not think so?
Now, why don’t you give us your opinion on the contents of the Weir article
Phil referenced for openers? So much for a canard. I suggest everyone read the Weir article if they haven’t yet. Note what the article says about relative
volunteer organ donation in various countries, and the reasons given for that.
So an equal opportunity grave robber is something to brag about? Obviously,
an Israeli grave “robbery operation” has more access to Palestinian corpses than
other non-Jewish corpses, whether dead and buried or just expired on the bench or in the morgue. Now when it comes to giving some living poor person in lands outside Israel a few bucks for, say a kidney, and then selling it for
many thousands of dollars–now there’s decent profit! OTH, if you just steal organs from a recently expired corpse–that’s ALL profit since you don’t have
to pay the corpse or his or her family anything…
…And now Witty’s trying to make excuses for organ harvesting. Wow. Yeah, no comparison to Goebbels to be made there, huh?
I mean, the Nazis did horrible medical experiments on homosexuals too! So I guess that somehow invalidates what was done to Jewish people during the Holocaust?
Witty, figure out who’s side you’re on. Seriously now.
Citizen, what are you blathering about?
Yonira? This isn’t exactly the best place if you’re an ESL student. Maybe brush up on your language skills and then come back, if you can’t follow the discussion.
Here, take a look at what the Swedish reporter said early in November–it’s really inspiring; note that Israel does not investigate organ theft involving Palestinians:
link to haaretz.com
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Facts count:
israel harvests organs from the near-dead and the dead … it does not ask permission nor compensate the families of the organ “donor”
this unspeakably reprehensible behavior is made worse in that they are even more devious and scummy about it when the bodies are Palestinian
let’s not forget, israel was founded by religious fanatics, terrorists and mafias, so an illegal organ racket is just par-for-the-course
“let’s not forget, israel was founded by religious fanatics, terrorists and mafias, so an illegal organ racket is just par-for-the-course”
Ouch! Harsh, man, whew, that’s harsh! Just a few well-choosen words (although there might be a better word than “mafia” for the Jewish criminal affiliates, but I don’t know it) but how much they say!
“Kosher Nostra”?
Good one, Koshiro
Which religious fanatics founded Israel?
That would be the ones who have been ethnically cleansing the Palestinians by the hundreds of thousands, minimum, over the course of sixty-odd years because they believe that Jews are meant to live apart from the rest of humanity. Those fanatics.
haha, ok Chaos.
See? This guy doesn’t actually give a flying fuck about people like Mohammed Alsaafin. Why are we giving yonira the benefit of the doubt when he proves to be a heartless Nakba-denying bastard every time?
I think the Nakba deniers should be treated the same way we treat the Holocaust deniers.
yonira, if you think America should be run by Christians only, and Jews reduced to a second-class status, you will find lots of company among Christian Dominionists. Most people call them fanatics, because they think their religious beliefs entitle them to something, and to judge others.
RW,
I think you miss the significance underlying the story. In August, the Swedish newspaper and Sweden itself was publically exoriated for raising the issue of Israel harvesting organs from Palestinians. Accustations of ‘anti-semitism’ were levelled that effectively closed all debate and precluded any further investigation into the matter. Now it turns out there was a lot more truth behind the concerns raised by the Swedish paper. Significance? Notice how quickly the Goldstone Report was dismissed and buried using the same tactics.
Hiss admitted to this years ago.
He did. Yet no one thought this fact relevant when the Israelis were all screaming “Blood Libel!”
Here’s a gap that I don’t understand:
From Ms. Weir’s article linked to by Phil …
“A very small but significant minority of Israelis, including military officers and governmental ministers, hold extremist supremacist views relevant to organ extraction. In 1996, Jewish Week reported that Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburgh, a leader of the Lubavitch sect of Judaism and the dean of a religious Jewish school in a West Bank settlement, stated: ‘If a Jew needs a liver, can you take the liver of an innocent non-Jew passing by to save him? The Torah would probably permit that.’ Ginzburgh elaborated: ‘Jewish life has infinite value. There is something infinitely more holy and unique about Jewish life than non-Jewish life.’”
Okay, one can accept this, but how can all of this go on then—meaning not just what was in that AP report but the additional kind of things regarding organ trafficking generally noted by Ms. Sheppard-Hughes such as stated in Ms. Weir’s article and of what was in the Aftonbladet article too—if indeed the number of those in favor of it in Israel are “small,” even if “significantly small”?
Clearly, without even talking about the taking of organs from Palestinians but instead just (“just”) that seemingly indisputable reporting of how Israel itself turns a blind eye towards organ trafficking, there’s some very different view in the whole of Israel concerning these matters than which prevails in most if not all of the rest of the world. So where does it come from if *not* from “extremist supremacist” views? Just pure need?
In any event does add a new dimension to understanding the Palestinian perspective: A captive population, going about terrified not just that they or their children or other loved ones are going to be killed, but then also that they may have their very bodies mutilated and organs cut out for use by their occupiers. Like some crop to be harvested….
I suspect Israel is going to move heaven and earth to see this story strangled; hard to view even Palestinian suicide-bombers in the same light when considering that this has now been validly shown to have been part of their perspective.
in the 90s? this article has the smell of steam being let out of the pot. what happened to the rabbinical harvesting crew in ny and nj and their ME ties, an ongoing criminal enterprise?
Organ harvesting may refer to number of things.
Firstly, it may relate to organs taken from living or brain dead donor, which can be transplanted whole to a living recipients. Here time is of essence.
Secondly, it may relate to skin, corneas, bone, cartilage from freshly dead donor.
Thirdly, it may relate to organs used for research and teaching – again can be taken from freshly dead donor.
First example is the one people think of about. Innocents snatched from the streets and killed for their organs which are, still steaming, passed over to recipients. It is very unlikely that people in occupied territories, unlike prisoners, could be use for this sort of organ harvesting. Logistics are difficult to arrange.
But there is nothing to special about the cases two and three. Case two has been admitted and is hardly news.
Case three has been common practice in pathology from always. It is only in the last ten – fifteen years that people started questioning ethics of removing organs from bodies and returning “incomplete cadavers” to families. Huge amount of research relied on ongoing access to diseased and healthy tissues and organs (especially if you had health history attached to samples).
What is remarkable about this story is not that organs were taken – they were. It was fact that rather than own up and say that it was unethical practice which has been stopped, there was this hysterical reaction as if accusation was a monstrous fabrication with no basis in fact.
What has not been proven is whether Palestinians have been killed on purpose to provide material for pathologists rather than simply provided material to pathologists after they have been killed for some other reason.
What has not been proven is whether Palestinians have been killed on purpose to provide material for pathologists rather than simply provided material to pathologists after they have been killed for some other reason.
Well, maybe not. But the facts are:
1. The Israeli army killed a number Palestinians, many unarmed.
2. Said Palestinians’ organs were then harvested, without permission by their families, for the benefit (among others) of the Israeli army.
Let’s just say that if the situation were:
1. The LAPD killed a number of illegal immigrants, many unarmed.
2. Said immigrants’ organs were then harvested, without permission by their families, for the benefit (among others) of the LAPD.
“What has not been proven is whether Palestinians have been killed on purpose to provide material for pathologists rather than simply provided material to pathologists after they have been killed for some other reason.”
Would any good Zionist or Israeli stand in the way of Israeli medical research, or hinder the work of Israeli medical industry? I think not! In fact, I’m sure they would help however they could.
I wonder if the tissue was paid for, you know, like a “scalp bounty” we had here in American west?
“What has not been proven is whether Palestinians have been killed on purpose to provide material”
… again, let’s assemble some facts:
It is been documented repeatedly that israel uses human shields (you can see the videos) and that sometimes these innocents snatched to take bullets instead of IDF soldiers end up, not surprisingly, dead … and if even one of these Palestinians used as a human shield ever had their bodies cut open to get any kind of tissue by israel for use for one of its favored jews, then, yes, israel kills Palestinians to harvest their organs.
the motivation and circumstances matter less than the result
case closed
Given the thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, if they wanted to do this they had a lot better opportunities than hoping for a lucky brain shot.
What they did was bad enough, and of course they cast the blame on the people trying to expose the truth.
An Internet petition calling for an investigation can be viewed at –
link to ipetitions.com
And now the AP has the story, amazingly enough. Anyone want to give odds on whether it shows up in the NYT?
link to google.com
I stand corrected: the NYT runs the story after all, believe it or not:
link to nytimes.com
I haven’t seen the print edition so I don’t know if this is only on the web, but either way the Op-ed page tomorrow should be interesting.
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To the accusation that Israel “harvested organs” of recently-killed Palestinians, there was a “hysterical reaction as if accusation was a monstrous fabrication with no basis in fact”.
We now know there was a “basis in fact” for the accusation. Now the ultimate issue of guilt: Did IDF personnel at any level know or believe of this ghoulish practice, and thus have foundation knowledge to motivate killings for organ harvest? In the absence of an admission of guilt (always rare), one of the rules of ordinary logic is that guilt may be presumed from (1) hiding the truth, and (2) lying.
This is sufficient reason to conclude Israel is guilty of pre-meditated murder to harvest organs. The IDF has the burden of rebuttal.
Even if IDF troops did not participate knowingly in this practice, Israel is still guilty because Hiss was just as much a servant of the Israeli state, and apparently retained his office after his activities were known.
“one of the rules of ordinary logic is that guilt may be presumed from (1) hiding the truth, and (2) lying.”
I’m not even gonna bother with that. I’ll just fix it: “one of the rules of ordinary logic is that guilt may be presumed ” I think that’s what you meant to say.
On the other hand, I gotta say, those Israelis are a bunch of bastards, and I wouldn’t put anything past ‘em.
That’s a pretty dangerous road to be walking, saying that “guilt may be presumed.” I defy the notion that any ordinary logic allows for that.
Why presume anything? Why not have a full investigation? Preferably via the ICC — this can be added to the already lengthy docket that can be assembled to put these cases on trial and determine innocence or guilt rather than merely presume it.
“The author of this book, who writes under the pen name of “Thomas Dalton,” is an American scholar who holds a doctoral degree from a major US university.”
You really were going pretty good til you got to that sentence! Yup, remind me to read a book by a US professer who won’t write under his own name. You don’t find that just the slightest bit discrediting? I know, I know, power of the Jewish Lobby, lose the position at the college, wife and kiddies hungry and gift-less at Hannukah.
But man, if the Holacaust revisionists are so afraid of their own findings, they won’t publish them under their own name, they aren’t going to be much trouble, are they. It’s like a classic Jewish joke, transfigured:
“This University sucks! It’s run by Zionists, completely under Jewish domination! They are forcing us to lie about the Holacaust!”
“Well, you have to tell the world! Let the people know how these people are ruining your life and perverting your scholarly findings!”
“What? And lose my job? You’re crazy!”
Dalton could have written under the pen name Pluto and it would matter if the book is accurate and well-researched. My understanding is that he intended to call himself George Orwell, but that name was already taken.
Chaos4700: I agree with you 100% that a full investigation, or even better a full trial, would be ideal. In the absence of complete evidence, presumptions are useful to reach preliminary conclusions and assign the duty to of rebuttal. What I am saying is, there is enough evidence to presume Israeli guilt. Israel may of course produce evidence (not just unsupported denials) to seek to rebut the presumption. Absent such rebuttal evidence from Israel, the preliminary conclusion is logical. That’s the difference between a shouting match and a trial.
Well, we do have an outright confession from an Israeli official, one supposes, so you have a point in that regard.
i googled your name MichaelSantomauro. w/ the radio show interviews about holocaust denial and articles on storm front it occurs to me perhaps you are not an unbiased participant in this conversation and have invested lots of time and energy aimed towards disproving the experts.
The allegation that the Nazis used Jewish skin to make lampshades and soap has been proven to be a lie”
Human skin was never used on the industrial scale. There were accusations that wife of the Commander of Buchenwald, Ilse Koch, was ordering killing of people with interesting tatoos to use their skin for decorative purposes. (These people were unlikely to be Jews, who’s culture and religion did not approve of tatouage.)
A number of pieces of human skin have been recovered from pathology department at Buchenwald concentration camp, but lampshades, gloves and book-covers have not been found and have not been presented at her trial.
Soap made from human fat has also not been produced on the industrial scale.
It was produced in Institute of Anatomy in Medical Academy in Gdansk by german Prof. Rudolf Spanner, on small scale, using by-product human fat recovered from cadavers that were treated to become skeletons for teaching purposes. There was no evidence that anyone was killed specifically for the purpose of production of soap. The soap was used to clean laboratories.
There are lots of stories that have taken a life on their own in the aftermath of second world war.
they are not denying it. i just read the nyt times AP article, starts out
Israel has admitted that in the 1990s, its forensic pathologists harvested organs from dead bodies
also
In a response to the TV report, the Israeli military confirmed that the practice took place. ”This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer,” the military said in a statement quoted by Channel 2.
chances are the idf (and then some) was aware of this when everyone was screaming blood libel this summer. i seriously doubt it stopped when they say it did. what’s established here is they lie until they are caught red handed. also, it’s called harvesting because the subjects are alive for vital organs.
Various body tissues — such as, namely, corneas, bone segments and skin — can retain vitality for some period after clinical death. (I’m not a doctor, so I couldn’t tell you specific time frames, but I believe it’s on the scale of hours, at least).
And I will have to agree with you — before this interview came out, Israel was denying it happened at all. We have this story; we have the organ trafficking ring whose bloody trial runs through the fingers of several New Jersey rabbis.
I think maybe there’s enough evidence here to demand a full investigation by international authorities to figure out just how long this has been really going on and how deep it stretches.
Israel has marked shortage of organs for transplants, research and teaching due to lack of donors.
In view of controversy, a full audit of organs used, similar to that performed in European pathology departments, and thorough investigation of their origin seems to be called for.
Any organs where origin cannot be traced back should, if they are still in existence, be sampled/biopsied for DNA; and any organs found should be returned to families for burial.
Families worried that their loved ones had organs stolen, should be encouraged to consent to autopsies.
This will stop speculation, and replace it with facts.
If trade in organs did occur it would have been very lucrative due to huge excess of demand over supply. I doubt very much that greed would have prevented terminating Jewish potential donors brought to hospital as opposite to Palestinian potential donors brought to hospital.
I have conducted many forensic investigations of things gone wrong in hospital, and the amount of data kept by hospitals is staggering. It is virtually impossible to leave no trace of wrongdoing, even if the only indicators of guilt or wrongdoing are the records that have been removed.
It is not as far fetched as it seems: In Poland there was a gang of emergency medicine doctors and ambulance drivers who helped many patients to die in exchange for kickbacks from funeral parlour.
People do really ugly things for money.
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