Comments on: Two-state solution needed, and fast– for U.S. and Israel! http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/two-state-solution-needed-and-fast-for-u-s-and-israel.html The War of Ideas in the Middle East Tue, 14 Feb 2012 03:55:37 +0000 hourly 1 By: 2 state solution needed in a hurry, for U.S. and Israel http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/two-state-solution-needed-and-fast-for-u-s-and-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-142719 2 state solution needed in a hurry, for U.S. and Israel Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:27:22 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=13237#comment-142719 [...] have a new mantra: Two State Solution Needed for U.S. and Israel. I’m going to keep repeating it till I’m blue-and-white in the face. (Get it?) Where do [...] [...] have a new mantra: Two State Solution Needed for U.S. and Israel. I’m going to keep repeating it till I’m blue-and-white in the face. (Get it?) Where do [...]

]]> By: Shingo http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/two-state-solution-needed-and-fast-for-u-s-and-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-138236 Shingo Wed, 06 Jan 2010 20:22:28 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=13237#comment-138236 No Witty, Israel didn't heen to have responded passively to the shelling from December 17 -27th, because Hamas had already proposed a return to the ceasefire by the 14th and Israel rejected the offer. Of course, Israel coudl have saved themselves the naguish and stuck to the ceasefire in the first place, but you insist on ignoring that very incovenient fact. The ending of the cease-fire on November 4 is a fact that is not disputed by the number of rockets. How many rocekts were fired has NOTHING to do with the fact that it was a vilation of the ceasefire or that fact that Israel violated it. You are desperately clutching at straws to comflate the facts. Hamas offered to retunr to the cease-fire on November 14, not siply extend it so stopo lying. Obviously Israel did not regarded the cease-fire as still in effect at that moment, otherwise they would not have requested teh US to veto such calls at the UN. The international urging of a cease-fire occurred after the 10 days of shelling, and extended into the period of Israeli retaliation. "The dichotomy, according to Wondering Jew, is of either/or - either Israel started it, or Hamas started it. My formula is different than that'" Your formula is eviscerated byt he facts and the fact that no one, here and no pundit or articel written anywhere suports youe whacky thesis. Hamas could not possibbly have initiated the war because Israel had long ago, initiated an act of war with the blockade. Your dismissisal fo the rais as s a skrimish that does not qualify as an act of war demomnstartes your insufferable hypocrisy and doubel standards. Only 2 Israelis soldefirs were killed in the 2006 skirmish with Hezbollah, yet that qualified as an act of war didn't it Witty? You must hate the fact you continue to be caught in your own hypocritical trasp. The guerillas hid because Israel cotionued to pound Gaza fromthe air. No Israeli soldier would have entered Gaza with air support. The IDF are not that brave. No Witty, Israel didn’t heen to have responded passively to the shelling from December 17 -27th, because Hamas had already proposed a return to the ceasefire by the 14th and Israel rejected the offer.

Of course, Israel coudl have saved themselves the naguish and stuck to the ceasefire in the first place, but you insist on ignoring that very incovenient fact.

The ending of the cease-fire on November 4 is a fact that is not disputed by the number of rockets. How many rocekts were fired has NOTHING to do with the fact that it was a vilation of the ceasefire or that fact that Israel violated it. You are desperately clutching at straws to comflate the facts.

Hamas offered to retunr to the cease-fire on November 14, not siply extend it so stopo lying. Obviously Israel did not regarded the cease-fire as still in effect at that moment, otherwise they would not have requested teh US to veto such calls at the UN.

The international urging of a cease-fire occurred after the 10 days of shelling, and extended into the period of Israeli retaliation.

“The dichotomy, according to Wondering Jew, is of either/or – either Israel started it, or Hamas started it. My formula is different than that’”

Your formula is eviscerated byt he facts and the fact that no one, here and no pundit or articel written anywhere suports youe whacky thesis.

Hamas could not possibbly have initiated the war because Israel had long ago, initiated an act of war with the blockade. Your dismissisal fo the rais as s a skrimish that does not qualify as an act of war demomnstartes your insufferable hypocrisy and doubel standards. Only 2 Israelis soldefirs were killed in the 2006 skirmish with Hezbollah, yet that qualified as an act of war didn’t it Witty?

You must hate the fact you continue to be caught in your own hypocritical trasp.

The guerillas hid because Israel cotionued to pound Gaza fromthe air. No Israeli soldier would have entered Gaza with air support. The IDF are not that brave.

]]> By: Richard Witty http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/two-state-solution-needed-and-fast-for-u-s-and-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-138229 Richard Witty Wed, 06 Jan 2010 19:50:35 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=13237#comment-138229 You're still rationalizing, listening to yourself rather than considering alternative interpretations. I don't know if Israel could have or should responded passively to the shelling from December 17 -27th. I don't see the decision to respond forcefully as irrational. And, your interpretation of the cease-fire ending on November 4, does not bear out by the numbers of rockets, Palestinian deaths, or pattern of degree of attacks. That Hamas offered to extend the cease-fire on November 14 (on terms according to their interpretation, not the interpretation of the mediators, or Israel - claimed to have agreed to originally), indicates that they regarded the cease-fire as still in effect at that moment. The international urging of a cease-fire occurred after the 10 days of shelling, and extended into the period of Israeli retaliation. The dichotomy, according to Wondering Jew, is of either/or - either Israel started it, or Hamas started it. My formula is different than that. My conclusion is that Israel reasoned that Hamas was initiating war (as distinct from skirmishes, in which six dying is a consistent number), and responded in turn. In retrospect it was excessive. Guerillas hid, and Israel continued much longer than it needed, much longer than it had legitimate war targets. At initiation it was not excessive in scale. You’re still rationalizing, listening to yourself rather than considering alternative interpretations.

I don’t know if Israel could have or should responded passively to the shelling from December 17 -27th. I don’t see the decision to respond forcefully as irrational.

And, your interpretation of the cease-fire ending on November 4, does not bear out by the numbers of rockets, Palestinian deaths, or pattern of degree of attacks.

That Hamas offered to extend the cease-fire on November 14 (on terms according to their interpretation, not the interpretation of the mediators, or Israel – claimed to have agreed to originally), indicates that they regarded the cease-fire as still in effect at that moment.

The international urging of a cease-fire occurred after the 10 days of shelling, and extended into the period of Israeli retaliation.

The dichotomy, according to Wondering Jew, is of either/or – either Israel started it, or Hamas started it.

My formula is different than that. My conclusion is that Israel reasoned that Hamas was initiating war (as distinct from skirmishes, in which six dying is a consistent number), and responded in turn.

In retrospect it was excessive. Guerillas hid, and Israel continued much longer than it needed, much longer than it had legitimate war targets. At initiation it was not excessive in scale.

]]> By: Citizen http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/two-state-solution-needed-and-fast-for-u-s-and-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-138192 Citizen Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:22:57 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=13237#comment-138192 Hey, the Pals could be more efficient if Uncle Sam supported them like he does Israel. Just don't expect any Israeli to be grateful. Or any Palestinian... Hey, the Pals could be more efficient if Uncle Sam supported them like he does Israel.
Just don’t expect any Israeli to be grateful. Or any Palestinian…

]]> By: Citizen http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/two-state-solution-needed-and-fast-for-u-s-and-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-138188 Citizen Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:20:25 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=13237#comment-138188 Just remember Witty has said that he is a humanist first before being an American, and a humanist second, after his allegiance to Israel. I forget the exact word he used in the latter context, but "allegiance" is the correct extract. You could also substitute addiction. He said it a couple days ago--anybody got the exact verb he used to show his loyalty priority? Just remember Witty has said that he is a humanist first before being an American, and a humanist second, after his allegiance to Israel. I forget the exact word he used in the latter context, but “allegiance” is the correct extract.
You could also substitute addiction. He said it a couple days ago–anybody got the exact verb he used to show his loyalty priority?

]]> By: Citizen http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/two-state-solution-needed-and-fast-for-u-s-and-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-138186 Citizen Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:14:37 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=13237#comment-138186 Mooser, ok, a cheap joke; do you even know what an entrenching tool is? Have you ever been dependent on the other guy in your machine gun trench? I doubt it. But I'd still rather have you in it, than Witty. You might actually be as concerned about my continuity as your own. Every grunt likes that. Mooser, ok, a cheap joke; do you even know what an entrenching tool is? Have you ever been dependent on the other guy in your machine gun trench? I doubt it.
But I’d still rather have you in it, than Witty. You might actually be as concerned about my continuity as your own. Every grunt likes that.

]]> By: Citizen http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/two-state-solution-needed-and-fast-for-u-s-and-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-138184 Citizen Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:08:30 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=13237#comment-138184 Witty, if all US aid in all forms to Israel was cut off, Israel would be nothing at all in terms of world influence. Get a grip. Your square peg is your own mental box; outside of it, reality prevails. Witty, if all US aid in all forms to Israel was cut off, Israel would be nothing at all in terms of world influence. Get a grip. Your square peg is your own mental box; outside of it, reality prevails.

]]> By: Citizen http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/two-state-solution-needed-and-fast-for-u-s-and-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-138183 Citizen Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:03:59 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=13237#comment-138183 Witty, please clarify what you mean when you say "idiotic question." You are merely name calling. We expect more of your pretense. Take a pill, sleep, wake up afresh and show us what your adjective "idiotic" means. Be helpful, not just someone tossing slurs at the messenger. Witty, please clarify what you mean when you say “idiotic question.” You are merely name calling. We expect more of your pretense. Take a pill, sleep, wake up afresh and show us what your adjective “idiotic” means. Be helpful, not just
someone tossing slurs at the messenger.

]]> By: Shingo http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/two-state-solution-needed-and-fast-for-u-s-and-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-138108 Shingo Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:57:03 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=13237#comment-138108 Yesm, with Hamas shelling, it's Hamas, but Hamas are not the only group that has shelled. Israel has never commited to prosecute those that commit crimes against Palestinians becasue those crimes were ordained from the government itself. There is no point focusing on some etherial notino of upliftment, when the realities are that no upliftment will ever take place while the stae fo Israel keeps it's boot on their jugular. You don't like political definitions because they represent a reality that threatens you and your beloved Israel. If the settlements were to reamain then the most extreme elements of Zionist society would have to agree to live under Palestinian governance adn they are to militant and radical to ever accept that arrangement. Yesm, with Hamas shelling, it’s Hamas, but Hamas are not the only group that has shelled. Israel has never commited to prosecute those that commit crimes against Palestinians becasue those crimes were ordained from the government itself.

There is no point focusing on some etherial notino of upliftment, when the realities are that no upliftment will ever take place while the stae fo Israel keeps it’s boot on their jugular. You don’t like political definitions because they represent a reality that threatens you and your beloved Israel.

If the settlements were to reamain then the most extreme elements of Zionist society would have to agree to live under Palestinian governance adn they are to militant and radical to ever accept that arrangement.

]]> By: Richard Witty http://mondoweiss.net/2010/01/two-state-solution-needed-and-fast-for-u-s-and-israel.html/comment-page-1#comment-138107 Richard Witty Wed, 06 Jan 2010 13:42:32 +0000 http://mondoweiss.net/?p=13237#comment-138107 With Hamas shelling, it is not the renegades, but the agency of the government. Israel has committed (reluctantly and half-assed) to prosecute those that commit crimes against Palestinians in the West Bank. Its a tragedy for Palestinians that your focus is not on their upliftment, but solely on political definitions, especially those that demonize rather than those that reconcile. Back to nazi parallels I see. I stay in one place. I've lived in the same couple towns for 23 years. I've never resided outside of the US, though I have traveled for at most 5 months in 1986. I've been to Israel twice, seen it and the West Bank both, in different historical settings (not recent). I correspond with a couple Israelis regularly also from multiple settings and perspectives, none in the high-tech field directly, though I have corresponded with some Israeli innovators in fields that I am associated (sustainable economic development and transition). "I don't give a crap whether Israel is highly developed". Another statement that conflicts with your prior assertions. As Fayyad has indicated, the settlements can remain, integrated, as Palestinian citizens if they choose, complying with Palestinian law. That sounds reasonable to me. With Hamas shelling, it is not the renegades, but the agency of the government. Israel has committed (reluctantly and half-assed) to prosecute those that commit crimes against Palestinians in the West Bank.

Its a tragedy for Palestinians that your focus is not on their upliftment, but solely on political definitions, especially those that demonize rather than those that reconcile.

Back to nazi parallels I see.

I stay in one place. I’ve lived in the same couple towns for 23 years. I’ve never resided outside of the US, though I have traveled for at most 5 months in 1986.

I’ve been to Israel twice, seen it and the West Bank both, in different historical settings (not recent). I correspond with a couple Israelis regularly also from multiple settings and perspectives, none in the high-tech field directly, though I have corresponded with some Israeli innovators in fields that I am associated (sustainable economic development and transition).

“I don’t give a crap whether Israel is highly developed”. Another statement that conflicts with your prior assertions.

As Fayyad has indicated, the settlements can remain, integrated, as Palestinian citizens if they choose, complying with Palestinian law. That sounds reasonable to me.

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