Netanyahu to Diaspora: You’re chopped liver

Israel/PalestineUS Politics
on 39 Comments

Netanyahu speaks to the Herzliya Conference in Jerusalem (Thanks to Ben White):

You are dealing with our people’s fate because it is clear today that the fate of the Jewish people is the fate of the Jewish state.  There is no demographic or practical existence for the Jewish people without a Jewish state.  This doesn’t mean that the Jewish state does not face tremendous challenges, but our existence, our future, is here.  The greatest change that came with the establishment of the Jewish state was that Jews became more than just a collection of individuals, communities and fragments of communities.  They became a sovereign collective in their own territory.  Our ability as a collective to determine our own destiny is what grants us the tools to shape our future – no longer as a ruled people, defeated and persecuted, but as a proud people with a magnificent country and one which always aspires to serve as “a light unto the nations.”

In order to continue ruling our own destiny, we must establish our collective ability in three main fields – in security, the economy and education.  I do not intend to expand on the security field today, other than to say that we must continue nurturing and strengthening our military force.  The weak do not survive in the geographically difficult space we live in, nor is peace made with the weak.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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39 Responses

  1. Mooser
    February 5, 2010, 11:23 am

    ” There is no demographic or practical existence for the Jewish people without a Jewish state.”

    Translation from ziocaine-speak:
    ‘Oh, for the old days when Jews lived in ghettoes, and “Jewish leaders” had all the Jews in the ghetto by the balls’

    • Citizen
      February 5, 2010, 11:46 am

      Huh? Israel is a giant ghetto. The world has just moved on from intra to inter in terms of Jewish Ghettos of the past. And Israel (thanks to American Jews) is allowed this special state status.

    • zamaaz
      February 6, 2010, 6:38 am

      Netanyahu’s speech desirable or not, is in over-all, correct and right for a people given internationally the legal character to survive…Ghetto on not, Israel attained its legal character to stand as an independent nation…There are tumults, sorrows, and tragedies along its way…but it cannot afford to lose its last chance to survive as a Jewish nation…so be it!

      • zamaaz
        February 6, 2010, 7:11 am

        If I were a Jew in Israel, you can call be a bullshit as much as you want! but we will never edge our right an inch…this was ‘our internationally’ recognized state. The Balfour Declaration was simply a freak of history…it was a product of an accumulated global ‘pressures’ (thanks to widespread European anti-Semitism) that has ‘forced’ the world particularly the British government to leave-off the Jews for Palestine…This chance was a miracle that could have happened only once in human history, and will never return again, nor will we ever deny our only chance as Jews to rebuild a Jewish nation… and we will defend ‘our’ endowed rights and lives at ALL COST!

      • Cliff
        February 6, 2010, 7:24 am

        The UN and the British had no right to give you any land. It was not theirs to divide up.

        The only reason there is a Jewish State is because you ethnic cleansed the indigenous population of Palestine.

        I’m sure Jews will fight against anti-colonial forces.

        No powerful entity gives up their power. But you’re confused if you think people want to commit another Holocaust and send all the Jews ‘back to’ wherever.

        Israel exists. It’s a fact. No one has to accept it’s ‘right’ to exist – because first of all, no State has an inherent and arbitrary ‘right’ to exist.

        Your State is a colonial-settler State. It is still stealing land and oppressing the indigenous population of Historic Palestine.

        You have no moral high-ground. You are nothing more than a colonist wanting to keep stolen goods.

  2. Mooser
    February 5, 2010, 11:26 am

    ” The weak do not survive in the geographically difficult space we live in, nor is peace made with the weak.”

    Gosh, a birthrate above the replacement level might be a good start.

    Wish I was a Zionist! Then I could collect money because the Jews are threatened, and when that flow slowed down, collect money so the Jews could threaten others.

    • Citizen
      February 5, 2010, 11:48 am

      Yeah, right. Hitler always worked for Die Deutsche Mutter–he even gave them a cross for pursuing many Aryan births.

    • Citizen
      February 5, 2010, 11:48 am

      Yeah, right. Hitler always worked for Die Deutsche Mutter–he even gave them a cross for pursuing many Aryan births.

  3. Citizen
    February 5, 2010, 11:33 am

    Opener:

    “You are dealing with our people’s fate because it is clear today that the fate of the Jewish people is the fate of the Jewish state. There is no demographic or practical existence for the Jewish people without a Jewish state.”

    As Phil sees, the lives of the Jewish diaspora have no practical existence, for example in the USA where they are so very oppressed you’d have to be blind to not see it. And, yes they are only, what 2% of the USA demography?

    So let’s move down to the closer:

    “The weak do not survive in the geographically difficult space we live in, nor is peace made with the weak.”

    This means, What’s Good For The Palestinians is of no concern. In fact, here Netanyahu
    is describing continued incessant persecution of the Palestinian people as an official Israeli
    policy, both domestic and foreign. The Palestinians are “put on a diet.”

    Netanyahu’s point: Gentiles are born with congenital mental disease; sooner or later,
    in every place outside Israel, the Gentile majority will start having anti-semitism fits
    simply due to their genetic propensity for same–it’s quite biological you see. So, given that, we Jews need a totally safe haven to run to when the mentally defective start attacking us, and the Palestinians are in the way. We Jews cannot afford to recognize Palestinians as fully human because to do so would weaken our safe haven from the inevitable anti-semitic herds.

    • Citizen
      February 5, 2010, 11:42 am

      And, BTW, as on American TV shows of all kinds (and in all Hollywood movies), no Jew is ever a bad guy, let alone any specific group of Jews. Imagine a TV show
      like the Sopranos, but it’s about Wall Street types, very sophisticated show. Cable TV could actually do this. It would take on its own ambient niche, like Frazier. This will never happen.

      • America First
        February 5, 2010, 12:31 pm

        In the movie Wall Street, the Ivan Boesky figure was given the name Gekko. Because there are so many Greek insider traders?

  4. William Burns
    February 5, 2010, 12:28 pm

    How long did the Jewish people survive without a state? Couple thousand years, give or take? And now the survival of the Jewish people is dependent on a state founded in 1948? Why would anyone take this bullshit seriously?

    • JSC
      February 5, 2010, 7:17 pm

      Zionists take it seriously because of their destructive entitlement (a phrase coined by Avigail Abarbanel) and the paranoia of anti-Semitism (that barely exists in a meaningful way in the U.S.) which has become a part of the personal identity of many Jews.

      It’s really a con, because Israel just wants more people so they can keep trying to outnumber the Palestinians, who are having far more babies.

      • Cliff
        February 5, 2010, 8:37 pm

        I recently read that a ‘lost tribe’ of Indian Jews had been found and are on their way to the West Bank.

        Guess, I’m a Zionist now!

  5. wondering jew
    February 5, 2010, 7:32 pm

    The essence of Netanyahu’s Diaspora negation is contained in the line: “There is no demographic or practical existence for the Jewish people without a Jewish state.”

    I think the statement vis a vis demography is more accurate than vis a vis “practicality”. The Diaspora intermarriage rate and the less than Zero Population Growth birth rate are facts that make Netanyahu’s statement accurate. Israel, where there is a large Jewish religious and traditional population, has a better than replacement birth rate and because of facts both admirable (tradition) and not admirable (laws, war situation, segregation) has a negligible intermarriage rate.

    But the attack on the practicality of the diaspora’s existence is far more problematic.

    Nonetheless, today the world Jewish population is about 14 million and the Israeli Jewish population is somewhere about 5 million. The number of people who speak a Jewish language (Ladino, Yiddish or Hebrew) as their first or competent second language in the diaspora is less than a million and in Israel is about 5 million. So the negation of the importance of the Jewish population that lives in Israel is certainly false.

    • JSC
      February 5, 2010, 7:45 pm

      Fair points all. But virtually no Jews spoke Hebrew except for a prayer or two for almost 2,000 years except for an educated few academics and rabbis, and yet Jews still lived. Ladino and Yiddish are just dialects of other languages, and they have some cultural value but there were Jews long before either language was invented and there will still be Jews after they become extinct.

      Not every group of Jews is shrinking; the Ultra-Orthodox in the U.S. and Israel are growing rapidly. At the rate we’re going, Jews won’t die out but in 60 years most will be wearing silly 18th century costumes.

      • wondering jew
        February 5, 2010, 8:04 pm

        I doubt the uneducated Jews in the time of Jesus spoke Hebrew either. The language at the time was Aramaic.

        And religious Jews did not pray just a prayer or two, they prayed constantly during the day- 3 times a day and after every meal and the vast majority of their prayers are in Hebrew, except for a meager few in Aramaic.

      • JSC
        February 5, 2010, 8:34 pm

        True, but many didn’t (don’t) know what they actually mean nor could they speak Hebrew conversationally. I say prayers but I don’t speak good enough Hebrew to really understand them past a basic level.

      • jimby
        February 6, 2010, 5:33 pm

        WJ, please accept apology for snide response yesterday. You do bring sustenance to the blog. I was in a bad frame of mind.

    • Danaa
      February 5, 2010, 8:21 pm

      WJ – here’s a question: if jewish survival depends on the combination of reactionary, backward-looking, fundamentalist lifestyles and ultra-nationalist, racist, xenophobic and paranoic mind-set that’s typical of Israel nowadays, is such survival even worth fighting for?

      To me it seems that Judaism itself needs to disassociate itself from that reactionary, pariah state that calls itself jewish (and is anything but), in order to preserve a tradition without compromising humanity of the people who wish to hold onto it.

      Unfortunately, the jewish state – as promoted by Netaniahu et al – is in the process of transforming into a state built on disregard of human rights – not just of non jews but of all but a small fraction of it’s citizens, jews and non jews alike. if so, if this is what’s become of the zionist dream (and it sure seems to be headed that way) then why would such a future be worth preserving? aren’t jewish diaspora efforts better directed at building up it’s own communities, rather than expanding them on behalf of distorted so-called “jewish’ project that is bound to doom judaism itself?

      To turn the question back to you, WJ, why not turn the fight into one for the soul of judaism – in your own back yard?

      Or, to paraphrase – why do you struggle so for an unworthy – and profoundly ungrateful – entity that seems on a collision course with the very things you hold dear?

      • wondering jew
        February 5, 2010, 8:50 pm

        There are 5 million Jews living in Israel, including more than a few that are personally dear to me. That’s why I support Israel.

        I am curious as to how you see the future unfolding? Do you foresee a major war that makes the wars of 48, 67 and 73 look like child’s play? Do you foresee a war with millions killed? Do you think millions of Jews will move out of Israel and then the leaders will hand over the keys to Hamas?

        I have no clear vision of the future. But you seem so sure of yourself, so maybe you do have a vision of the future. Or maybe you just hate antidemocratic forces so much that this overrides any doomsday future war that I might imagine. I don’t know. That’s why I’m asking.

      • Danaa
        February 5, 2010, 10:08 pm

        Since you ask, I shall answer.

        I do not actually foresee a great war or cataclism befalling israel in the near term. No matter how much sword rattling is in evidence, I just don’t see a great disruption in the cards – too much at stake – for them and for their patron, the US. At least not in the next decade. Rather, it is likely to be a long and bumpy ride into the heart of darkness. As the country’s demographic changes – quite radically – with the religious-nationalist/orthodox/haredi segment taking over, parts of the country will become increasingly inhospitable to the seculars, who will congregate more and more along the coast (which is already happening). I see the country becoming a patchwork of gated communities – to keep some out and some in. I said before that under such conditions, there will be new and hetherto unthinkable alliances, such as between palestinians and secular israelis who may just join forces to hold back the tide of fundamentalism. This will be a positive development; unfortunately, it’ll come too late. Future governments will be even more xenophobic than the current one because of the dysfunctional way the parliamentary system works in Israel. In the meantime, the exodus from israel will accelerate, even as the economy deteriorates (the haredi do not contribute much to the workforce, do they?), and more and more people will be left out in the cold, with less coming in taxes and expenditures rising. Right now, almost 1/2 of all elementary school children are haredi or arab. In another 5 years, this will rise to over 60%, and by the end of the decade this combined segment will rise even faster. Neither will be ready for 21st century challenges, whether because of too much faith (the haredi), or lack of opportunity (the arabs). leaving an ever decreasing proportion of those in productive jobs to support the rest, even as the people as a whole become even more cynical and disillusioned than they are now (if that’s possible). Obviously, there will be great deterioration in civil liberties as the religious garner more and more legislative powers, and corruption will get worse as the Russians make their way into the center in greater numbers. the battle for Intel to stay open on saturday is just the beginning of many more battles to come.

        As for the palestinians, alas, they are doomed to suffer even more, though as time goes on their battle will really transform into one for civil rights since there will be no other choice. This will drive most israelis nuts, so the discourse will get even coarser and ruder than it is now. I wish I had good words for the immediate future of palestine – gaza or west bank – but everywhere I look, I see more misery ahead. Their stead-fastedness will for sure be tested more than it ever has been.

        As all this happens, larger segments of american jewry (the liberal ones) will embark on a serious process of rethinking their devotion to the zionist enterprise – just as Phil and adam have. That’s probably where you’ll be mere 5 years down the line, when some of those you like over there will start asking for your help to get out. I field many such requests already, not that i can help with much other than advise.

        So there you have it – the ultimate irony in action: a slow – and very painful to watch – slide into feudal-like land of shtetls – all poised to quarrel with one another, all gated away from each other. A fundamentalist mini-Prussia between jordan river and the mediterranean, with a deteriorating environment, huge social gaps, declining education standards and population with hair trigger temper, locked into fortress mentality. A population that’s increasingly dependent on the military-industrial complex for employment, export and spiritual sustenance.

        Luckily, I cannot see much beyond a decade ahead – because things get very murky – not just for israel, but for the US; indeed for the entire world because of many more factors that are in play. Also, I said before that I agree with abigail abarbanel that the israeli collective is on collision course with insanity. So yes, there’s a finite chance of a cataclism of sorts, sooner or later, but i think that at least for the next 10 years america will continue to supply them with enough meds to keep the insanity from boiling over. After that, well, I can’t go there yet.

        You probably don’t like this projection – who could? unfortunately, I should warn you that my knack for forecasting has been right far more often than it’s been wrong. Besides, you can add up the sign posts yourself (if you can bring yourself to it – which is not easy) and see just how inevitable the scenario I painted looks.

  6. RoHa
    February 6, 2010, 12:20 am

    “There is no demographic or practical existence for the Jewish people without a Jewish state. ”

    This leads me to ask “Why should the Jewish people continue to exist? Why should there be Jews?”

    I’m sure some people here will be shocked by the question, and accuse me of wanting to kill all Jews. That is not what I am suggesting.

    I am asking why it would be a bad thing if the people who are now Jews were to give it up and just be ordinary people.

    • wondering jew
      February 6, 2010, 1:50 am

      Firstly, the true believers in the Torah are not going to give it up.

      Secondly you presuppose that everyone else in the world are ordinary people and only the Jews are not ordinary people. People are allowed to have Christmas or Ramadan, but not Passover? I don’t see the logic. If the entire world abandons religion then your question would apply, until then, not.

      On a nationalistic level, it is true that America to a large degree is post nationalistic and one can say the same regarding Western Europe. But where is this true about the rest of the world? Eastern Europe is certainly not post nationalistic. Why would you demand of the Jews to give up their identity, but not of other people?

      Certainly I understand from those who oppose Zionism that you might view Judaism or Jewishness as negative features. But there is a rich culture and a rich history and to give it up for ordinariness, which in many cases just means sitting in front of the t.v. or following the latest fad, then how is that an improvement? If individual Jews choose “ordinariness” that is their choice. There are culturally and emotionally rich lifestyles other than Jewishness that exist in America and elsewhere in the world. But if something has survived through thousands of years through incredible adversity, it certainly is natural to see it as something that should not be tossed into the garbage can without a second thought when all you are offering is ordinariness in its stead.

      • Citizen
        February 6, 2010, 7:57 am

        Are Christmas and Ramadan tribal holidays?

      • RoHa
        February 6, 2010, 8:11 am

        “Secondly you presuppose that everyone else in the world are ordinary people and only the Jews are not ordinary people.”

        No, that, it seems, is what Jews suppose. Many seem to have the sense of being superior, special, and different. That is certainly the impression they give.

        “People are allowed to have Christmas or Ramadan, but not Passover?”

        You seem to have reading difficulties. I am not saying Passover should be forbidden. I am simply asking why it would be bad if it were given up. Lots of religious ceremonies have been given up. No-one now keeps the Ludi Apollinares, and it doesn’t matter.

        “On a nationalistic level,”

        Jews are no more a nation than Parsees or stamp collectors.

        “Why would you demand”

        I am not demanding anything.

        “ of the Jews to give up their identity,”

        What is this “identity” stuff? Why is it so important?

        “ but not of other people?”

        If I knew what this “identity” thing was, I would probably be quite happy for other people to give it up as well.

        “But there is a rich culture and a rich history and to give it up for ordinariness, which in many cases just means sitting in front of the t.v. or following the latest fad,”

        And there we see that sense of superiority and specialness again.
        Buy “being ordinary” I mean giving up that idea of being special and different.
        The history books will not go away, but they will not be regarded as more important than any others. But the ordinary man will be able to take full part in the culture of the world.

        The Zionists thought that Jewishness brought with it a life of an incomplete or abnormal human being.
        link to gilad.co.uk

        If Atzmon is correct, the Coen Brothers seem to think that is still the case.
        link to gilad.co.uk

        Would it not be worth losing the little Jewsih culture to be free from all that?

        So try again, and tell me why it would be a bad thing for Jews to stop being Jews.

    • Donald
      February 6, 2010, 10:19 am

      This is anti-semitism. Did you stop for one nanosecond to think that many or most “ordinary people” also identify themselves as Christian or Muslim or Hindu or American or Japanese or Mexican or Democrat or Republican or any other of a very long list of possible identities, religious or national or ethnic or political? And it’s not going to change, no matter how much barroom philosophizing you do. But you single out Jewishness as something that should be given up.

      It’s comments like yours that give ammunition to people who (dishonestly) link the cause of Palestinian rights to anti-semitism. Congratulations.

      • RoHa
        February 7, 2010, 6:09 am

        “This is anti-semitism.”

        Too bad.

        “Did you stop for one nanosecond to think that many or most “ordinary people” also identify themselves as Christian ….”

        Yes, but they seldom go around talking of “the Christian people” or “the Democrat people”.

        “. But you single out Jewishness as something that should be given up.”

        No, I asked why it would be a bad thing if it were given up. And so far, I haven’t had a halfway useful answer.

      • RoHa
        February 8, 2010, 6:59 am

        I was a bit brusque in my previous post. Here is a slightly more detailed response.

        The cry of “anti-Semitism” has become so overused as to be meaningless. I intend to ignore it.

        Now for the substance of the question.

        The issue of the continuance of the Jewish people was raised. I asked why it was necessary for the Jewish people to continue.

        Consider this.

        There is, in Louisiana in the U.S.A., a group of people called “Cajuns”. The comic books (perhaps an unreliable source) inform me that they speak French, practice witchcraft to summon up Swamp Things, and eat a substance called “gumbo”.

        Now suppose all these people voluntarily gave up all those practices, and scattered abroad to live in Norway, Chile, and New Zealand. They forget about their ancestors, and become indistinguishable from the rest of the population. They assimilate. Their lives as Norwegians, Chileans, and New Zealanders will be no worse than the lives they had as Americans. They are no longer Cajuns. I such a case, the Cajun people would have ceased to exist.

        Would that be a bad thing? I can’t for the life of me see why it would be. I can’t see that the world would have become a worse place.

        So if anyone starts prating about the importance of the continued existence of the Cajun people, I ask “why is it important that there be continue to be Cajuns?”

      • Cliff
        February 8, 2010, 8:55 am

        I think Zionists want Palestinians to do the same though.

        They Palestinians to disappear, and to be forgotten. They even say that Palestine never existed, Palestinians don’t exist, and that they – ‘the Jews’ – have some unique link to a piece of land, that these ‘Palestinians’ have lived on for 100s if not 1000s of years.

        I don’t want Palestinians to give up their identity and their history/consciousness because of Zionism.

      • wondering jew
        February 8, 2010, 9:04 am

        In fact Cajuns are proud of their culture and wish to perpetuate it as well.

        All Jews have a choice of whether to perpetuate the Jewish people, through marriage and children or through communal participation, or not.

        I see you have quoted Gilad Atzmon who advocates the dissolution of the Jewish people and who himself has converted to Christianity. That was his choice. He may be shunned for his choice, but no law limited his choice.

        If you were truly asking why Jewish people might choose to continue the Jewish people, then you would have to ask ten different Jewish people who have chosen through marriage and procreation or through communal participation why they made their choices. I’m sure that you would get many different answers.

        But I sense that there is an arrogance to your question and a wish that Jewish people would just stop being Jews. Your question seems not to be asked out of mere curiosity in order to understand the urge to continue something that has existed for thousands of years, something that gave birth to the two major monotheistic religions of the world and has given birth to thousands of great individuals who have contributed to western culture in various ways. No not out of genuine curiosity of why Jews might choose to persevere, but from a wish that the Jews would just disappear.

      • Cliff
        February 8, 2010, 9:28 am

        Reasonable reply WJ.

        What about the Palestinians? Should they be pissed their land is being stolen? If it were happening to Jews, how would you advise them? Would you be upset at Jewish stone-throwers?

      • wondering jew
        February 8, 2010, 9:46 am

        Cliff- I realize that I/P is the primary topic being discussed on this web site, but sometimes your questions are superfluous.

        Here is my superfluous answer to your superfluous question:

        The Palestinians are entitled to feel pissed. If they want a letter from me asserting their right to feel pissed, I’m willing to send a note to the IDF.
        “Ahmed has a right to feel pissed. Please don’t be too upset when he throws stones at you.”

      • Cliff
        February 8, 2010, 10:20 am

        It wasn’t superfluous. We’re talking about whether ‘a people’ should hold on to the various things that bind them together. Culture, tradition, land.

        You went at length about how Jewish people should and even expressed indignation at that question:

        But I sense that there is an arrogance to your question and a wish that Jewish people would just stop being Jews.

        Now, I agree with you basically. However, in another thread you spewed the usual apologetics and hypocritical windbaggery about Palestinian resistance. It doesn’t matter whether it’s violence or nonviolence – and anything in between.

        There is no moral center to the things you write because you’re unable to give Palestinians the same humanity and dignity that you give to Jews.

        So a Palestinian throwing stones is trivial to you. It’s something to be mocked. And it’s illegitimate. You in your pompous narcissism, look down on Palestinian stone-throwing as ‘improper protest’.

        The Palestinians are entitled to feel pissed. If they want a letter from me asserting their right to feel pissed, I’m willing to send a note to the IDF.

        “Ahmed has a right to feel pissed. Please don’t be too upset when he throws stones at you.”

        How can you switch gears so quickly?

        Religion means nothing if it’s a club. If the principles aren’t universal, or if the message in it’s entirety doesn’t exude compassion – then I couldn’t care less.

        So if Jews are tribal, at once living for themselves and for Jewry and ‘contributing’ to the ‘world community’, when and how does a Jew decide to snap at ‘the other’?

        When interests conflict? There is no moral center then. It’s being Jewish, to be Jewish. To just ‘have’ an identity. I’d say the same for most religions actually.

        So here you are, lecturing that guy. Then you turn around and trivialize the Palestinian experience.

        Stone-throwing is a crime to you; an impudent nuisance – but it’s what the Palestinians do to resist – in their own way, pathetic yes, given the chasm of power.

        I don’t know? You’re kind of a dick.

      • wondering jew
        February 8, 2010, 10:32 am

        I guess I’m not allowed to comment on anything without answering for something I said elsewhere. That’s your right, Cliff.

      • RoHa
        February 10, 2010, 6:35 am

        “I think Zionists want Palestinians to do the same though”

        Ben Gurion had that idea. “The old will die, and the young will forget”.

        If the Palestinians were do it freely, voluntarily, and happily, then I would not mind.

        If they give up simply as a way of getting away from Israeli oppression, then it would be another sad victory for cruelty and injustice.

        But how many generations have to carry the load of misery that was dumped on the earlier generation?

      • RoHa
        February 10, 2010, 6:40 am

        “In fact Cajuns are proud of their culture and wish to perpetuate it as well”
        Irrelevant. The question is “Would it be bad if they gave it up?”

        “If you were truly asking why Jewish people might choose to continue the Jewish people,”

        I am not asking that. I am asking “Would it be bad if they chose not to, and if so, why would it be bad?”

        From all your evasions it seems as if you have no answer.

  7. Tuyzentfloot
    February 6, 2010, 6:37 am

    Robert Fisk was at Herzliya , and his report is here link to independent.co.uk . I’ uneasy with it, think I’ll chew on it a bit.

    • jimby
      February 6, 2010, 9:48 am

      I’ve been reading Fisk for years. I think he was giving the mindset at the convention not his personal opinion. It did seem unclear.

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