Earth Day in Israel: Apartheid Showing Through the Greenwash

on 261 Comments

On April 22, as part of the global Earth Day celebrations, homes, offices and public buildings in 14 Israeli cities turned out the lights for one hour in an effort to "increase awareness of the vital need to reduce energy consumption." The Earth Day celebrations included scenes of green fields, wind generators and rainbows projected on the walls of the Old City in Jerusalem, the Green Globes Award ceremony recognizing "outstanding contributions to promote the environment" and a concert in Rabin Square in Tel Aviv powered by generators running on vegetable oil as well as volunteers on 48 bikes pedaling away to produce electricity.

The irony was not lost on the 1.5 million residents of Gaza who have been living with daily power outages lasting hours on end for nearly three years due to the Israeli siege on the coastal territory. The Israeli Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (COGAT) reports that over 100 million liters of fuel were allowed into Gaza in 2009, however as Gisha points out, that amounts to only 57% of the need. As summer approaches bringing peak demands, spare parts and tools for turbine repair are in dire need. There are currently over 50 truckloads of electrical equipment awaiting approval by the Israeli authorities for entry to Gaza.

The constant power outages have led many families in Gaza to rely on low quality generators running on low quality fuels, both brought in through the tunnels from Egypt, causing a sharp increase in accidents resulting in injury and death. According to the UN agency OCHA, in the first three months of 2010, 17 people died in generator related accidents, including fires and carbon monoxide poisoning.

The mayor of the central Israeli city of Ra’anana, of which 48% is reserved for city parks, vowed to plant thousands of trees as part of the city’s sustainable agenda. Palestinian farmers from the West Bank village of Qaryut near Nablus had their own tree planting ceremony in honor of Earth Day, only to find the 250 olive tree saplings uprooted by Israeli settlers from Givat Hayovel. Another 300 were uprooted during the night of April 13 outside the Palestinian village of Mihmas by settlers from the nearby Migron outpost. The Palestinian Land Research Center estimates that over 12000 olive trees were uprooted throughout the West Bank in 2009, with Israeli authorities responsible for about 60%, clearing the land for settlements and construction of the wall, and Israeli settlers the rest.

Earth Day in Gaza brought armor plated bulldozers escorted by Israeli tanks that proceeded to rip through fields of winter wheat, rye and lentils at Al Faraheen near Khan Younis in the Israeli imposed buffer zone, destroying the livelihood of a Palestinian family because, as Max Ajl, who filmed the entire shameful episode, explained, "They could."

But that’s not all that was being dug up in Gaza. The UN Mine Action Service uncovered and removed 345 unexploded ordnance, including 60 white phosphorus shells, left over from the Israeli assault on Gaza. Approximately half were found under the rubble of destroyed buildings.

As the Israeli Ministry of Environmental Protection was launching its "Clean Coast 2010" program for Earth Day, somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 million liters of raw or partially treated sewage was being pumped into the Mediterranean sea from Gaza’s overworked, under funded and seldom repaired sewage treatment plant. Damage from Israeli air strikes and lack of electric power and spare parts due to the siege make it impossible for the plant to meet the demands of Gaza’s 1.5 million residents, with the daily overflow creating serious health hazards.

In addition to the Green Globe awards, the Ministry of Environmental Protection had it’s own award ceremony last month recognizing Israeli Defense Force units, soldiers and commanders who "exhibited excellence in protecting the environment, environmental resources and the landscape." The theme for this year’s annual competition was water and included projects related to the "protection of water sources" and "water savings."

For Palestinians living in the West Bank, this "protection of water sources" was documented in Amnesty International’s October 2009 report Troubled Water: "The Israeli army’s destruction of Palestinian water facilities – rainwater harvesting and storage cisterns, agricultural pools and spring canals – on the grounds that they were constructed without permits from the army is often accompanied by other measures that aim to restrict or eliminate the presence of Palestinians from specific areas of the West Bank."

The Amnesty International report also notes that for decades, Israeli settlers have instead "been given virtually unlimited access to water supplies to develop and irrigate the large farms which help to support unlawful Israeli settlements." And nowhere is this more evident than the Jordan Valley where 95% of the area is occupied by Israeli settlements, plantations and military bases and where "Israeli water extraction inside the West Bank is highest."

One such company helping to sustain the illegal settlement economy is Carmel Agrexco, Israel’s largest fresh produce exporter. By its own admission the company, which is half owned by the State of Israel, exports 70% of the produce grown in the West Bank settlements. Europe is by far its biggest market, though its produce arrives as far as North America and the Far East. Agrexco promotes itself as a green company, with a focus eco-friendly packaging and organic produce, though one could argue that transporting organic bell peppers from Israel to the US is hardly ecological. Even the self-proclaimed "green ships" used to bring fresh produce to Europe are named Bio-Top and EcoFresh. "

But there is nothing green about occupation and colonization, nothing ecological in violating human rights and dignity. And that’s why an international coalition supporting the Palestinian call for boycotts of Israeli products has set its sights on removing Carmel Agrexco produce from supermarkets – and ports – across Europe.

The original Earth Day was about grassroots mobilization, public protest for change and political awareness of the issues. In Israel’s Earth Day celebrations, its Apartheid system is showing through the greenwash.

Stephanie Westbrook is a U.S. citizen who has been living in Rome, Italy since 1991. She is active in the peace and social justice movements in Italy and traveled to Gaza in June 2009. She can be reached at [email protected].

For more information on the boycott campaigns targeting Carmel Agrexco in Europe, see:
UK –
Italy –
France –

261 Responses

  1. Chaos4700
    April 25, 2010, 12:55 am

    There is also the staggering amount of ecological damage Israel caused to Lebanon in 2006, when they littered the countryside with cluster bomblets and caused massive destruction in Beirut, including an attack on the power plant there that caused a fuel spill into the Mediterranean.

    And of course, the average Israeli uses five times as much water as the average Palestinian, yet pays significantly less for what they use.

    In fact, Israel could not support its exhorbitant, wasteful water usage if it weren’t stealing a significant portion of its water from outside its Green Line borders, from occupied territory.

    • eljay
      April 25, 2010, 8:55 am

      >> “The Israeli army’s destruction of Palestinian water facilities – rainwater harvesting and storage cisterns, agricultural pools and spring canals – on the grounds that they were constructed without permits from the army is often accompanied by other measures that aim to restrict or eliminate the presence of Palestinians from specific areas of the West Bank.”

      Palestinians shouldn’t be building maximalist, anti-semitic water facilities. They need to adopt a more conciliatory approach – for example, a puddle here, a bucket there and, if need be, the occasional high-speed gas canister to the head. This way, they can show themselves to be human beings instead of just victims or proponents of water facilities-based aggression.

      Remember the Holocaust!

  2. Shmuel
    April 25, 2010, 2:02 am

    Great article, Stephanie. In Israel, the environment is another weapon in the arsenal of occupation and dispossession – both directly (“green” zoning, “green” patrols, etc.) and indirectly, to demonstrate how “normal”, “western” and “evolved” Israel is. Greenwashing in Israel thus takes on an added dimension that cannot be ignored. BDS.

    • Chaos4700
      April 25, 2010, 2:34 am

      Well, and we’ve already seen how slimeballs like yonira try to use gay rights as a canard to delegitimize the Palestinian people (which I find doubly infuriating, for reasons which should be obvious at this point).

      I find this notion that everything in society, politics and culture can be weaponized and used against the Palestinians to be degrading. We’ve seen many of those tactics imported and adapted here to be used against Muslims in general in the US. It’s abhorrent.

  3. potsherd
    April 25, 2010, 3:22 am

    Nothing irrational about it. Hating this is the only moral thing to do.

  4. sherbrsi
    April 25, 2010, 4:12 am

    It’s acts like these which make me more cynical of the conflict.

    The Israelis are not only committing such heinous acts, but are pretending to be the “civilized” actors of the entire conflict, claiming to champion every socially progressive issue to whitewash, pinkwash, and now greenwash.

    It comes across as doubly offensive, first the reprehensible act itself, and then the propaganda cover-up.

  5. Richard Witty
    April 25, 2010, 4:13 am

    Green efforts, tangible and cultural, are still important.

    In all earth day celebrations there is a lot of fantasy and self-congratulation.

    The environment actually represents an opportunity for real social change in Israel/Palestine, particularly in the recognition of “loving the land” requires collaboration. It cannot be an either/or proposition, no matter how distrustful of the other the parties are.

    In every setting where space is finite, water is finite, other resources etc. there will be fights as to use. (That is how water in the world is now an “economic good” in most locales, meaning that it is no longer free, no longer managed commons even, but a marketed commodity with a market price.)

    Even after there is political reconciliation and clarification of rights and boundaries, there will be class conflict related to the new priced minimum necessity (water) and cultural conflict between the “ecological ways” of a community is sparsely populated and few downstream are affected in a traditional society, and the “ecological ways” of a densely populated society that must be managed and regulated far more than previously.

    It would be helpful if the parties were peers, rather than one dominant over and the other subordinated.

    • Richard Witty
      April 25, 2010, 4:17 am

      The ecologically concerned in Israel are among the most willing to collaborate with Palestinians, and are most aware of and sensitive to their experience and needs.

      One feature of “successful” BDS has been and can be, the breaking up of those collaborative relationships by forced isolation, rather than the enhancement of those relationships.

      “You work with Israelis on water use issues. They oppress us with water. We don’t trust you.”

      • sherbrsi
        April 25, 2010, 4:31 am

        The ecologically concerned in Israel are among the most willing to collaborate with Palestinians, and are most aware of and sensitive to their experience and needs.

        Being liberally oriented they are also the most likely to understand and support the non-violent peace initiatives of the BDS.

        One feature of “successful” BDS has been and can be, the breaking up of those collaborative relationships by forced isolation, rather than the enhancement of those relationships.

        Right. Still going with your anti-BDS crusade, I see.

      • Richard Witty
        April 25, 2010, 4:39 am

        I don’t know what activists and more productive ecologists think there.

        I do know that one consequence of the intifadas was isolation of one community from the other, when contact is what is needed.

      • sherbrsi
        April 25, 2010, 4:43 am

        I do know that one consequence of the intifadas was isolation of one community from the other, when contact is what is needed.

        8 Israeli peace groups did not support the two intifadas. Neither did prominent Rabbis and Zionists.

        The difference is that with BDS they are.

        If the goal of the BDS is to isolate then they it has already failed miserably, considering that the two previous intifada’s had none of the Zionist and Israeli support the BDS does.

      • Julian
        April 25, 2010, 7:06 am

        Successful BDS? The first 10 years of BDS has caused the Israeli economy to double.
        BDS won’t bring peace. What will bring peace is the Palestinian realization that they can’t have 2 Muslim States with the Jews in Israel living as dhimmis.

      • Shingo
        April 25, 2010, 7:27 am

        ” The first 10 years of BDS has caused the Israeli economy to double.”

        …yet Israel still relies on the world’s biggest welfare cheques from the US, as well as loan guarantees (ie. loans that Istael doesn’t repay), nor does it pay gorit’s own weapons.

        And re the lie about wanting 2 Islamic states , you might want to give that kne up. No one is buying it.

      • sherbrsi
        April 25, 2010, 7:51 am

        > The first 10 years of BDS has caused the Israeli economy to double.

        It has already been pointed out to you that the BDS campaign started 5 years ago.

        At this point your obstinacy just seems to be the repetition of talking points.

        Tell me, if BDS is so insignificant, why do you have to constantly remind us of that here? If it’s so irrelevant, hell, if it has a positive effect like you claim, isn’t it best left alone, to its own devices?

        But the very fact that I see concern from the likes of the status-quo supporters here, affirms my belief that there is something in the BDS campaign which has the prospect of bringing change, which is why you Zionists are so perturbed by it. From Witty’s crusade to redefine the BDS along his lines, to your continued suggestions of the BDS’s irrelevancy, and far more importantly the squirming of Israeli officials and right-wing think-tanks uncomfortable just thinking that the world might impose international laws and conventions on Israeli policy in some way, is enough to drive my support for it if I am feeling against it.

      • Richard Witty
        April 25, 2010, 7:56 am

        There is no definition of what the BDS campaign entails, or what its actual goals are.

        My perspective is fear based, that the actual purpose of BDS is the elimination of Israel from the map.

        It is almost parallel to the thinking of Arabs residing in Palestine in 1929, reading some Zionist literature and concluding that ITS goal was to take over, to remove them.

        What is the real goal of BDS? Why the use of the maximalist terms, if the intention is not that?

      • Richard Witty
        April 25, 2010, 7:58 am

        And, then in response to a movement that might have remained limited, they attacked, invoking a chain of reactions to reactions to reactions to reactions to reactions, ending in fearful subordination, rather than consented integration or consented separation.

      • Richard Witty
        April 25, 2010, 8:02 am

        The rabbis that “support BDS” only support very limited BDS.

        They don’t support the isolation of Israel than many proponents of BDS do support.

        Some supporters of BDS still support armed struggle. Some supporters of armed struggle, support BDS as a temporary tactic.

      • sherbrsi
        April 25, 2010, 8:06 am

        The rabbis that “support BDS” only support very limited BDS.

        You state that “the actual purpose of BDS is the elimination of Israel from the map.”

        So by supporting BDS are the rabbis (and the Israeli peace groups) “partially” supporting the elimination of Israel?

      • Richard Witty
        April 25, 2010, 8:15 am

        I state that I fear that the goal of BDS is the elimination of Israel.

        And, to the rabbis that are mentioned that I have any contact, I express my fears that the foot in the door is the message, and that the movement might reach a point where their influence is less than nill in moderating it.

        It depends on the sensitivities and power of the actual leadership. If it links up with the right (that includes the Ron Paul “libertarians” including those of them that are really David Duke libertarians), then the far right becomes prominent, a peer in the movement. If it defers to militant Palestinian cadre (as many people here regard Hamas as kind, sweet, accommodating), then the movement will eliminate the moderate as its permanent goal.

      • Shingo
        April 25, 2010, 8:18 am

        “I state that I fear that the goal of BDS is the elimination of Israel.”

        Yes, you have stated this even thought there is no evidence to suggest there’s any reality to this fear.

      • sherbrsi
        April 25, 2010, 8:19 am

        I state that I fear that the goal of BDS is the elimination of Israel.

        Wrong. You state that the “actual purpose” of BDS is the elimination of Israel.

        It’s one thing to claim a paranoid repulsion to it. It’s not a credible position but at least somewhat defensible. But you are deliberately trying to malign the BDS campaign, by assigning it violent goals and ill intentions. By hoping to discredit its very ideological base, even inventing outright lies in the process.

        You are the maximalist Witty. As much as I hate the term and your overuse of it, it describes you to to the tee.

      • Richard Witty
        April 25, 2010, 8:25 am

        The fear is real, and palpable.

        I’m conveying information to you, of what is perceived, and why.

        You can ignore that in your bullish zeal or not.

        So long as the single-state question is a question prominently asserted by leading dissenters at all, it IS on the radar.

        The “goal” is a moving and vague target. The leadership of BDS, that the American “leadership” defers to, does include prominent Palestinians that advocate for a single-state through the suppressive BDS campaign, advocating for maximalist interpretations of right of return for example.

        Don’t play coy.

      • Richard Witty
        April 25, 2010, 8:28 am

        You face a dilemma. Either you appeal to western sensitivies and sympathies, which do NOT generally subscribe to the concept “Zionism is racism” and will not, as they regard prohibition from self-government on ethnic association basis, as racism.

        As I’ve said, “anti-Zionism is racism” as well.

        Or, you appeal to purist politically correct positions that “inspire” but also contort to avoid the conflict nature of the conflict.

      • sherbrsi
        April 25, 2010, 8:34 am

        The fear is real, and palpable.

        If so why are you the only one privy to it? Apparently a lot of Rabbis and peace groups are blind to it, not to mention the many other advocates of the BDS campaign.

        What is the fear of? What does it pose fear too? Is it any different than the fear of the British colonialists against Gandhi’s struggle of non-violence?

        You never answer specifically, simply revel in fantasies of a “maximalist violent BDS” and convince yourself. Alone. While the rest of the blog is left questioning your integrity and sincerity.

        You have the chance of putting all that to naught but you consistently choose the path of deception and double-talk.

      • sherbrsi
        April 25, 2010, 8:34 am

        > As I’ve said, “anti-Zionism is racism” as well.

        No more than hating Nazi bigotry, is a form of bigotry in itself.

      • LeaNder
        April 25, 2010, 8:36 am

        My perspective is fear based, that the actual purpose of BDS is the elimination of Israel from the map.

        yes, obviously. I almost forgot your immediate distrust of me when we first met, interestingly based on a misreading of what I meant. I didn’t feel like belonging into your fear triggered preconception box then. I was reminded of this in your exchange with The Magnus Zionist, by the way. The same air of suspicion, I hadn’t noticed this for a while.

        Richard I have been boycotting Israeli produce since it could be produced in the occupied territories. I have no chance to boycott only produce from the West Bank, since the labels do not make a difference here in Europe. There has a demand that this happens for a long time, but since it didn’t happen I strictly can’t tell if the farm products are from the West Bank or from inside Gaza.

        There you go. I would love to only boycott West bank farm products but I can’t, since they are given neutral Israeli labels, and I strictly can’t tell. There are ends to your maximalist and targeted boycott, if the Israeli state deliberately obscures the ability of the buyer to know the place of origin.

      • homingpigeon
        April 25, 2010, 8:37 am

        Some points of important info:

        Libertarians are not the “right.” We are the future.

        There is no reason to put libertarian in quotation marks regarding Ron Paul unless you are a libertarian purist objecting to his continued membership in the Republican Party.

        David Duke is not a libertarian. We are not ethnocentric nor do we admire primitive tribal obsessions.

        Live and vote Libertarian. Try it. You’ll like it.

      • LeaNder
        April 25, 2010, 8:37 am

        This is just one example why the strict rules you demand do not and cannot work.

      • homingpigeon
        April 25, 2010, 8:39 am

        Bugger, this was supposed to go after Habibi Richard’s comments above.

      • LeaNder
        April 25, 2010, 8:42 am


        There has been the demand that this happens for a long time, but since it didn’t happen I strictly can’t tell if the farm products are from the West Bank or from inside Israel.

        Freud made Gaza slip into the sentence above. I started to look at the products place of origin really much more carefully since then.

      • homingpigeon
        April 25, 2010, 8:46 am

        The goal is not shifting. Different players may have different goals. Some would like to rein in Israel and facilitate a two state solution. Some would like to transform it into one country where all have equal rights. Since you like the two state solution, may I recommend that you support BDS until a peaceful settlement is achieved between two states, and then you can stop supporting BDS. Until then there should be nothing to disagree about on this matter.

        As always I must remind good readers to support the boycott of Democrats and Republicans (except for Paul and Kucinich) and vote for the third party of choice, preferably libertarian.

      • potsherd
        April 25, 2010, 9:08 am

        Julian’s record is broken.

        In the first place, there hasn’t been an effective BDS movement in place for 10 years, and there is no causal relationship between BDS and the temporary uptick in the Israeli economy.

        When the Israeli economy collapses and the secular Jews get tired of supporting the vast hordes of welfare parasites, they’ll all leave of their own will and the land will revert to the rightful owners. The Palestinian Christians will return and Palestine will be a state that tolerates all religions, even if it doesn’t tolerate chair-throwing and spitting from Jewish fantatics.

      • Polly
        April 25, 2010, 12:30 pm

        Richard, if the existence of Israel means the destruction of another people, the total compromise of the US congress and the complete endangerment of the rest of the free world from a global conflict resulting from its neverending push for regime change in every country that surrounds it – then why should ANYBODY support it’s existence?
        Yet despite this I’ll bet If Israel was to make an ATTEMPT at some concession re the Palestinians, I’m guessing most posters here would probably forgive (almost) everything that has transpired so far.
        You can’t keep basing your actions NOW on what happened in the past. The need for a safe haven for Jews is an ANACHRONISM. The world has moved on – 40 odd years ago blacks were still being sent to back of the bus and Australia still had a “White Australia policy”.
        Israel may have been a necessity once (though I seriously doubt it) but now it is simply a DESIRE.
        Some Brooklyn Dodgers fans still DESIRE that their beloved “Bums” would return to Brooklyn and guess what, it ain’t happening because it doesn’t mean SHIT to anyone but them!

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 12:35 pm


        its not a lie, with full ROR there would be a Palestine and an Israel with Palestinian majority.

      • Sumud
        April 25, 2010, 2:51 pm

        Yonira – if that majority is a problem for Israel it needs to make a compelling offer to the Palestinian refugees in order that they consent to give up their right of return – or rather that they limit that ROR to the future state of Palestine. Continuously trying to prevent the emergence of that Palestinian state really doesn’t help.

        In the longer term without resorting to another round of ethnic cleansing or outright genocide Israel can’t control the altering demographics. If I were a Palestinian Israeli I’d start a family and aim to have LOTS of children. Were my people living in peace and security, fully independent and prospering in their own state, I wouldn’t bother.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 2:53 pm

        all good points and I totally agree with everything you said Sumud.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 1:28 pm

        No. What will bring peace is the US ending it’s tax support of Israel and UN support of Israel, right or wrong. Time for the US
        to see the world writing on the wall, time for the US to live up
        to its highest values, universal basic human rights for all. It can’t do this until it stops allowing Israeli exceptionalism.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 1:31 pm

        The main BDS agenda is to end Israeli occupation and seige. That you don’t see this Witty, is testament to the large zionist mote in your eye.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 3:05 pm

        Homingpigeon, yes, Paul and Kucinich do stand out as long term incumbents in congress who are very different from all the others;
        they actually put “we, the people” first, and always strive for more than powerful special interests. They don’t even wait until their political career is over to say what’s needed to said. Imagine that.

  6. thankgodimatheist
    April 25, 2010, 5:16 am

    Settler sewage inundates Bruqin village

    The sewage crisis in Bruqin village is acute, the mayor said, with wastewater from the nearby Ari’el settlement pumped into groundwater and contaminating crops.
    link to

  7. VR
    April 25, 2010, 9:43 am

    The “greening” aspect in Israel is nothing but the attempt to claim normalcy above the noise of the ever encroaching occupation. However, Israel cannot even do that greening process without the real goal being the divestment of the indigenous population. It is like Nazi Germany’s claim to great scientific achievements while in the process of genocide, or like the USA’s establishing “parks” after they have cleansed the indigenous populations.

  8. VR
    April 25, 2010, 9:52 am

    As an example you can look at original indigenous population maps, and than lay over the establishment of parks on that land. What was done was the movement of the indigenous to wastelands outside the fertile lands, all you have to do is an overlay of the maps –


    Israel is involved in the same process, all settler colonial processes are the same.

  9. VR
    April 25, 2010, 10:15 am

    Global Earth Day cannot be celebrated by some Palestinians –


  10. rachel
    April 25, 2010, 10:40 am

    Israel is a leader in environmental technologies and alternative energy. Always has been. Most rational people acknowldege that. No amount of rhetoric can hide that fact. First to use solar panels to heat water in homes for instance. The place has no natural resources so there is little to steal. Unless you can complain that Israelis stole ingenuity and creativity too.
    YOU want to make everything about the occupation but the fact it is about development. The more developed the country, the more environmentally aware its citizens are.
    Go ahead and advocate BDS if you want too but don’t invent excuses to do so.
    Actually ecological concerns are embeded in Judaism. Every seven years for instance the fields have to lay fallow to rest. A lot of jewish rituals involve nature’s bounty. I am not a bible expert but I am sure there are specific examples some people can come up with.
    While we are at it let’ s quote the book of fairy tales. Every school kids know that there are messages in tales and fables.
    “When the Holy One Blessed Be He created the first man, He took him and warned him about all the trees of the Garden of Eden, saying: ‘See My works, see how beautiful and perfect they are, and all I created – I created for you. Beware lest you spoil and destroy My world, for if you will spoil it, there is no one to repair it after you.'” (Ecclesiastes Rabbah 7:13)

    • Chaos4700
      April 25, 2010, 10:45 am

      A shoddy array of Zionist jingoism peppered with exaggerations and bald-face lies, mixed in with the hijacking of the Judaic faith in order to justify what is, basically, an ethno-theocratic military expansionist power.

      link to

      “Environmental stewardship”?
      link to

    • potsherd
      April 25, 2010, 10:47 am

      What’s at issue isn’t Israel’s environmental technology but its cynical and hypocritical use of projects labeled as environmental to divide Palestinians from their land. Beginning with the “plant a tree in Israel” projects that just happened to eradicate Palestinian villages and render them ininhabitable. Not to mention the fact that these artificial forests were planted with ecologically-inappropriate non-native Ashkenazi trees.

      • rachel
        April 25, 2010, 10:56 am

        non-native Ashkenazi trees
        You are a fucking idiot!
        There are pine trees in the Middle East & North Africa
        I drove throughTucson Arizona and saw a local specie.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 11:03 am

        Is Arizona in the Middle East, or Northern Africa? I forget.

      • Danaa
        April 25, 2010, 12:36 pm

        rachel, the tree expert: quiz for you:

        1. are there or were there native pine trees in the land of Palestine, now refered to (by some) as israel at the turn of the century? if not, why not? please elaborate (you can use Wikipedia. I don’t mind)
        2. were are pine trees mentioned in the bible and in what connection/locations? (ask Shmuel, it’s OK – this is a take-home quiz)

        Hint: the areas north of the Litani river are not considered part of palestine (not even of the greater israel).

        For extra credit: Re Arizona (which is also not part of the greater israel, at least to the best of my knowledge), can you please elaborate on where and what those “local” pine tree species you saw are? also, if you could, please explain “local”.

        Test administered courtesy of the agricultural/environmental department of mondoweiss. A perfect answer will net you 5 Mondocredits.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 12:55 pm

        you people are so condescending on here its ridiculous. Oh hail the genius lefty Israel haters who know all!

        what a joke, this is probably the rudest group of know it all pricks (the most fitting term) i have ran across on the internet. Well you guys are comparable to the settlers I quabble with on pro-Israel sites. You’d be surprised at how similar you guys are, LOL!

      • potsherd
        April 25, 2010, 1:29 pm

        yonira and rachel – all invective, no facts.

        You guys should join the Flat Earth society to display your scorn at the true believers who think there were astronauts up on the moon.

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2010, 8:15 pm

        “this is probably the rudest group of know it all pricks (the most fitting term) “

        How the hell can you say that on a day when I’m not posting? And after all I’ve done for you, offered to play at your wedding, letting you “roll your own” and all that?

        Well, that’s Zionist appreciation and manners for you!

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 8:17 pm

        roll my own? i missed that one….. really? can i use a dollar bill?

      • Cliff
        April 25, 2010, 8:18 pm

        More bullshit from the wannabe ‘Jewish exceptionalist’.

        Tell me yonira, what do you do when you’re not polluting this blog w/ your lame histrionics?

        How about you actually make an argument instead of whining about antisemitism (more or less).

      • Cliff
        April 25, 2010, 8:22 pm

        You know this does not need to be said, since it’s so obvious.

        However, I really think if we followed the same commenting rules on blogs such as ‘Jews Sans Frontiers’ we would force douchebag trolls like yonira to either make an argument are get the fuck off the forum.

        There are other forums I discuss I-P at, as well as with friend IRL and you simply cannot TROLL like he does when you’re held accountable.

        Scumbags like him and the settler freaks may be able to do so when they rig the game, but in any sincere debate does ANYONE take these cultists seriously?

        Of course not. I don’t know why Phil allows the commentary to get this bad.

        You have to swift through all the trolling from eee/yonira/Dick Witty/the settler freak UNIX to get to the interesting posts.

        It’s always been this way too. These people need to go outside and get a fucking life.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 8:29 pm

        LOL, you are a joke Cliff.

        talking about getting outside, what did you do this weekend? how is your parent’s basement and your PS3 treating you?

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 8:32 pm

        Cliff? This is Zionism. If we enforced anything more than rudimentary moderation here, we’d pretty much all just end up preaching to our own choir.

      • RoHa
        April 26, 2010, 6:34 am

        To Danaa

        “Re Arizona (which is also not part of the greater israel, at least to the best of my knowledge),

        You right. It isn’t.

        Not yet.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 3:21 pm

        Yeah, yonira, we’re all Arizona pine trees.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 3:26 pm

        How’s your “rolled your own” girl friend, yonira? Still living in your grandparental basement with you?

      • Shmuel
        April 25, 2010, 11:23 am

        From an environmental perspective, the main problem with JNF forestation stemmed from its insistence on pine monoculture (with serious environmental ramifications). Although some native species were used as well, the choice of pine monoculture was obviously due to (European) aesthetic considerations. Potsherd is thus absolutely right in referring to them as “Ashkenazi trees”.

      • eee
        April 25, 2010, 11:57 am

        The JNF also planted plenty of Eucalyptus trees because they were fascinated with Aborigine culture.

      • Shmuel
        April 25, 2010, 12:21 pm

        LOL. The eucalyptuses were planted in different areas from the pines and for different purposes.

      • eee
        April 25, 2010, 12:26 pm

        Yes, but the fact is that many were planted despite being “Aborigine” trees, not “Ashkenazi” ones.

    • Richard Witty
      April 25, 2010, 10:49 am

      Beautiful sentiment.

      There is a vision of sustainability that is a romantic wish for a forgotten past. As the population was small, the ecological footprint was small. The earth could absorb poor water management, burning of fields or even forests, biome overhunting.

      It can’t now. Sustainability now means a combination of preservation of wilds and commons by regulation largely, AND optimal technical and social application of sustainable systems.

      Its a big cultural clash everywhere, not just in Israel/Palestine.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 10:52 am

        Beautiful. And utterly false.

        But then again, you’re going to oogle that “jewel” of yours no matter how much paste went into making it, aren’t you?

        “Big cultural clash.” Those of us who actually know Palestinians, know better.

    • Shmuel
      April 25, 2010, 11:39 am

      Israel is an environmental disaster area, due to a combination of technological hubris, capitalist/consumerism, corruption and an ideology of dispossession through “facts on the ground”. Israeli environmental practices cannot be detached from the Israeli colonial project, and the Palestinians themselves are no less a part of the ecology of Palestine than the ancient olive trees they have chosen as the symbol of their tragedy and their struggle.

      • eee
        April 25, 2010, 11:55 am

        That is why, it is essential to have 5-7 million Palestinians exercise their right of return. That will of course solve Israel’s environmental problems.
        Does the ROR make sense from an environmental point of view? Of course not, it is the worst possible thing for the environment. Yet you advocate it.

      • Shmuel
        April 25, 2010, 12:33 pm

        For anyone who missed Abu-Sitta’s article on The Feasibility of the Right of Return the first time I linked to it.

      • eee
        April 25, 2010, 12:53 pm

        Since when is Abu-Sitta a recognized environmental expert?
        He is a biased partisan. Of course he would claim something ridiculous such as doubling the population of Israel overnight would have limited environmental consequences.

      • Shmuel
        April 25, 2010, 1:13 pm

        Unlimited Jewish immigration is not an environmental concern, but Palestinian return is. As I wrote above, in Israel, the environment is another weapon in the arsenal of occupation and dispossession (and propaganda and distraction and obfuscation).

      • eee
        April 25, 2010, 1:27 pm

        Yeah Shmuel, there is no winning with you. If an Israeli voices a serious environmental concern, then he is using a “weapon”.

        And who said unlimited Jewish immigration is not potentially an environmental concern? Of course it is. If a few million Jews wanted to make aliyah to Israel all in the same year, it would be an environmental catastrophe. Israel would not be able to allow this despite the Law of Return.

      • potsherd
        April 25, 2010, 1:34 pm

        They would also not be able to stop it because of the Law Of Politics.

        They could, however, withdraw subsidies, which would probably dampen the Zionist ardor of most of the would-be immigrants.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 1:36 pm

        LOL, the government still controls the law of return, there is still an immigration process. you make it sound like you bring your jew card to BG and you are automatically a citizen. There is a lot of red tape and Israel bureaucracy is a daunting obstacle.

      • Shmuel
        April 25, 2010, 1:38 pm

        I’ll rephrase: Phased, unlimited Jewish immigration is not an environmental concern, but phased Palestinian return is.

        If you are opposed to ROR due to “serious environmental concern”, I’m a kugelager, but if that is indeed your concern, phased return (of the relatively few Palestinians who would actually be interested in returning) is perfectly acceptable to most Palestinian advocates of ROR.

      • Shmuel
        April 25, 2010, 1:50 pm


        There has never been any attempt by an Israeli government to limit Jewish immigration due to environmental or other “absorption” concerns. On the contrary, unlimited, unrestricted Jewish immigration is one of Israel’s most “sacred” principles. If your “Judaism” meets the Nuremberg-like criteria of Israel’s Law of Return, the bureaucratic procedure is pretty straightforward.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 1:53 pm

        yes, i am quite aware shmuel, my point was simply there is a process, you can’t just show up at the airport and be let in.

      • eee
        April 25, 2010, 3:31 pm

        Well the Hebrew word is meisav. And if the Palestinian position about ROR is similar to yours, they are not very good about explaining it.

      • Shmuel
        April 25, 2010, 3:41 pm

        Thanks for the rega shel ivrit, 3e. As for the Palestinian position on ROR, you obviously never really cared enough to listen to what the Palestinians had to say (as if it would have made any difference).

        From the PLO Negotiations Affairs Department:

        The Palestinian side proposes to develop, in coordination with the relative parties, a detailed repatriation plan that includes the modalities, timetables and numbers for a phased return of the refugees.

      • Avi
        April 25, 2010, 6:29 pm

        Thanks for the rega shel ivrit, 3e.

        eee dresses up in a bright colored shirt every purim, dons glasses and pretends to be Avshalom Kur.

        By the way, eee, Higia Zman Lishon.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 3:32 pm

        And Israel uses American taxpayers (97% non-Jewish) to pay for it, e.g., the giant wave of immigration of Russian Jews accompanying the fall of the USSR.

    • David Samel
      April 25, 2010, 12:33 pm

      rachel, your praise of Israel’s advancements in environmental technology may be accurate, or may not. (Certainly I wll grant that Israel is very far advanced in nuclear and conventional weapons technology.) To me, it is a matter of tangential interest, just like Israel’s supposed achievements in women’s rights, gay rights, etc. To paraphrase Clinton’s 1992 campaign motto, “It’s the occupation and discrimination, stupid.” (And no, I didn’t just call you stupid.) Israel wishes to present itself to the world as this bastion of progress in a sea of backwardness. Its claims in this regard are no doubt exaggerated, whether or not they contain even a kernel of truth. But it is all beside the point. None of Israel’s claims to liberal-sounding achievements can justify its insistence on exercising military rule over millions of Palestinians, or organizing a society around the principle of supremacy of Jewish over non-Jewish citizens. If apartheid South Africa had been truly a bastion of equality and progress and liberation for all whites, and a technologically advanced country (e.g., pioneering heart transplants), would that be any justification for apartheid? This is precisely the implication of Israel’s self-congratulatory Earth Day celebration and your approval of it.

      It recalls an article appearing a few months ago in mondoweiss:
      link to Michael Oren was asked about an Amnesty International report that disclosed that in the Occupied Territories, Israeli settlers’ water consumption was more than four times per capita that of the Palestinians. (The questioner did not even include the uncomfortable fact that the Israeli settlers were living there in violation of international law.) Oren’s response:

      “First of all Israel categorically rejected the findings of this Amnesty report, in fact Israel’s supply to the Palestinians exceeds its obligations under the Oslo Accords. We have a problem with Palestinians digging illegal wells down to the aquifer, not treating their sewage. Israel leads the world in terms of its sewage treatment. A greater percentage of our water is reclaimed then any other country in the world. And, Israel is cooperating with Jordan, and very productively, in water sharing. So if the Palestinians have a problem, I would say it’s overwhelmingly self inflicted.”

      A full analysis of this answer would take more time than I’m willing to devote, but it suffices to note here that even if Israel is a world leader in water reclamation (I see no reason to credit Oren’s claim, but assuming it is true), how can anyone possibly justify such brazen, inequitable distribution of resources? Oren is essentially saying: “We’re an advanced civilization at the forefront of this or that, and that gives us license to treat the indigenous population like shit.” Stephanie Westbrook’s article brilliantly exposes that this is Israel’s morally bankrupt claim, solar panels notwithstanding.

      • potsherd
        April 25, 2010, 1:40 pm

        Israel does have advanced techniques of desalinization, but this is an expensive process that can’t, alone, meet the needs of the population.

        Israel’s problem with water is the profligate waste in agriculture, caused by piping it from the WB and Jordan river to irrigate that famous blooming desert. A large percentage is lost through leakage. Because of political corruption, the urban population has to support the wasteful agricultural sector, which pays water rates that don’t cover the cost of delivery. These artificially low rates give no incentive to Israeli farmers to conserve water.

        And of course the water is Palestinian water.

      • Richard Witty
        April 25, 2010, 2:36 pm

        As Rachel referred, Israel innovated in photovoltaics (no longer leading by any stretch), in solar water heating, drip irrigation (preserving water thereby getting more food output per the same limited supply of water), building with natural earthen building materials, recycling, now experimenting with electric car service models.

        Its not everything, and like all innovations, it serves the affluent first.

        And, its not nothing by any stretch.

      • Avi
        April 25, 2010, 2:47 pm


        You’ve hit the nail on the head there. Your response shows that you are quite familiar with some of the real and complex problems at issue here, certainly not the kind of information anyone can glean from an article or two and then regurgitate with a broad brush.

      • Psychopathic god
        April 25, 2010, 6:51 pm

        you forgot the tomatoes! don’t forget the tomatoes, witty; israel invented them, right?

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 3:43 pm

        Just less than nothing by any stretch when applied to obuscate what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people, and has been doing for many decades. The Germans of the Nazi period gave the world many wonderful innovations, especially in technology, the fruits of which enhance and/or protect all our lives today–does that discount Auschwitz? Look to Gaza 7 the West Bank, next to Israel per se. Not a sight to thrill universal human rights and life.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 3:45 pm


    • Psychopathic god
      April 25, 2010, 5:45 pm

      yes, Israel stole ingenuity — from Iran. Iran’s geography is extremely challenging, yet hundreds of years ago Iranians figured out how to extract water from the desert, how to keep their buildings cool by building wind towers. With no outside sources of energy Iranians make ice in a 120 degree climate, channel scarce mountain streams to green their cities, build parks and gardens to refresh the souls and bodies of the Iranian people.
      Iran is noted for its beautiful gardens and roses. Iranians use rosewater to flavor their foods, refresh their homes, and scent their bodies. Many, many private homes in Iran feature a walled garden, frequently with a pool or pond to cool the atmosphere and refresh the spirit.

      In a conference last December,
      Ian Lustick explained what it is about Iran that so infuriates Israel. Boiled down, Israel cannot stand that Iranians are smart — perhaps smarter than Israelis, and the extent to which Iran has been able to meld western qualities and Middle Eastern values.

      Israel has a major identity problem: Israelis furiously denounce “anti-Semites,” — you know, characterizing Semites, for being Semites, but Israelis fancy that their unique mission is to westernize the Middle East — ie. the Semitic people. It is intolerable to Israelis that Iran can thrive culturally on its own terms, preempting Israel’s grand scheme to bring salvific western values to the “benighted” Middle East — that is doing well enough with them.

      • rachel
        April 25, 2010, 7:20 pm

        I disagree that Israelis hate Iranians. I think they have great respect for their culture. It is the ayatollas they don’t like. And I also think that ordinary Iranians have no animosity towards Israelis.

      • potsherd
        April 25, 2010, 7:27 pm

        They don’t hate Iranians, but they’re frothingly eager to kill them, regardless.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 7:45 pm

        You do know that the plight of the Palestinians are very probably the biggest foreign issue for activism in Iran, right? And we’re not talking merely the government of Iran — the people of Iran as well.

        You know how you guys keep parroting “Guns! Missles! Iran is arming Hamas!” I don’t doubt that weapons are being sent to the Palestinian resistance to the occupation, but the real reason Israel targets Iran so strenuosuly is that it one of the most prominent donor countries donating relief supplies to the imprisoned Palestinian population. Food, medicine, toys, school supplies, etc.

        I love it how Zionists go around shouting “lolz u r stoopid” and then they show themselves to be completely clueless when it comes to actual knowledge of anything outside of their own backyards.

      • Psychopathic god
        April 25, 2010, 8:37 pm

        Rachel, it would be comforting to believe that; too many bits of evidence stand in the way of right now, not least, potsherd’s on-point comment. The comments of the drunken kids on the Max Blumenthal video can be discounted.

        You say Israelis don’t like the ayatollahs; and in another item on this forum recently Chuck Schumer said Palestinians deserve their fate since they voted for Hamas. So Israelis apparently do not draw a line between leaders and the people who allow them to be in power. Thus, it’s not reassuring that Israelis don’t like ayatollahs. Besides, as most observers are aware, power is increasingly devolving from Iran’s clerics to the military — maybe Israelis will get along better with an Iran run by military.

        The American people make a similar distinction — between the Iranian people (we like ’em, especially Greens, ya, greens) and their government. I’ve made the same distinction myself.

        Another distinction occurs to me, tho: The Iranian people do not harbor hatred towards Jews or Israelis; in my experience, it is inconceivable that a photo like this one link to could have been captured in Iran. It is my impression that many people among the Israeli public are capable of a frightening level of hatred. That’s the difference between the Israeli public-government and the Iranian public-government dualities.

      • Psychopathic god
        April 25, 2010, 8:46 pm

        yea, Chaos, that’s the litany: “Iran is the world’s biggest baddest state sponsor of terrorism; Iran kills American soldiers; Iran supports Hamas and Hezbollah.” ora pro nobis

        My understanding is that there is some tension between segments of the Iranian public and the government: Public says, hey, spend the money on the home folks, never mind Palestine. The ayatolllahs and the military think sponsorship of Hamas and Hezbollah is strategically useful.

        Somewhere I read that Israel was hyperventilating because Iran had funded hospitals in Gaza. Terrorism 101.

      • rachel
        April 25, 2010, 9:09 pm

        I happen to live in Toronto, a city with a huge Iranian diaspora. I have friends in that community and we discuss all of these issues. This is a middle class community. Very westernized. Not religious. May be not very representative of Iranians as a whole. Some still pine for the Shah. Neverthless, I can safely say that the I/P conflict is not high priority for them. Furthermore, they distance themselves from the Arab world ( out of snobisme cause they believe Iranians are more evolved) and they grumble about the money the governement spends on Palestinians. They believe that Iran has many social and economic problems of its own that needs urgent attention.
        Haters are everywhere. You probably would never associate Canada with haters, but there are plenty of them here too. You think Israelis are bigger haters based on some pictures and videos. It is your right to believe whatever you want but I am afraid you are mistaken.
        Israel as you know used to have a good relationship with Iran prior to the Revolution. There is no earthly reason for Israel to hate Iran. It is the meddling in Lebanon and Gaza & Ahmadinejad eliminationist pronouncements that are currently creating the current crisis. I hope Israel does not bomb Iran. That will be crazy!!! That will be the end of the world as we know it.
        Hopefully, it is just sabre rattling.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 9:10 pm

        Some still pine for the Shah.

        Uh… yeah. Not representative at all.

      • Psychopathic god
        April 25, 2010, 9:41 pm

        It is always amazing when the Ahmadinejad card is played: ‘everything was peachy keen between Israel and Iran, until Ahmadinjad.’

        A was elected to presidency in 2005; before that, he was off the radar. Nobody in international community knew anything about him.

        YET, according to Keith Weissman, who was an AIPAC operative at the time, in 1995 Israel set its sights on Iran and AIPAC went to work on the US government to roll out the first set of sanctions to ‘punish’ Iran. Perhaps Chuck Schumer KNEW that Iran would elect a useful idiot 10 years down the road, and was preemptively punishing Iranians just as he justifies punishing Palestinians for electing Hamas.

        Regarding that ‘good relationship’ between Israel and Iran: my mistake to have read Ronen Bergman’s book on how Israel swindled Iran at every turn while the shah was in power and Israelis were Iran’s preeminent arms merchant. When that gravy train dried up (only after Israel continued to sell arms to Iran thru the Iraq-Iran war), Israel started killing Iranian diplomats, in a bid to recover Rod Arad.

        “eliminationist pronouncements” — whazzzat mean? you mean Ahmadinejad’s spot-on predictions that zionism would tear itself apart? I wonder if Ahmadi is the kind of guy who’d say, “I told you so….”

        re “just sabre rattling,” check this out: Sociopath Nation

        Why don’t I think the Iranians see their predicament with the US to be a “game”? Oh right- cause unlike the Time’s editorial writers and virtually all Americans- a war with the US will be fought on their soil and it won’t be a “game” for them. Unlike our political elite- war has consequences for Iran’s leaders. It isn’t a sick pastime for them like it is for our leaders. It is life and death for millions of their citizens.

        it makes me sick to the bottom of my soul to think that so many of my countrymen and so many of America’s leaders do not see the heinous nature of the crime they are committing against the Iranian people just by threatening them, “all options are on the table.”

        I believe you, Rachel, that Iranians in Toronto have diverse opinions, and I thank you for communicating your first-hand experience.

      • potsherd
        April 25, 2010, 9:44 pm

        “There is no earthly reason for Israel to hate Iran.”

        No, they only want to destroy it. This strategy has nothing to do with Lebanon and Gaza and Ahmadinejad. It predates these crises and is purely a matter of power politics.

        Israel cold-bloodedly decided to switch the label of “primary threat” during the Iran-Iraq war from Iraq to Iran. This was because it foresaw that Iran would win the war and become the stronger state.

        During the war, before this switch, Israel sold arms to Iran to use against Iraq. They would not have done this had they believed these arms were likely to be used against them.

        The Israeli doctrine is very simply that whatever Mideast state appears to be likely to become the most powerful is by definition a threat and must be destroyed.

        It will thus solve nothing for Israel if they succeed in destroying Iran, just like it solved nothing when they succeeded in getting the US to destroy Iraq. The next-powerful state will automatically become the next “threat” with all the force of Zionism deployed to demonize it.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 9:48 pm

        If this is the case Potsherd, then why didn’t the ZOG government of the US invade Iran instead of Iraq?

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 9:53 pm

        Easy target, obviously. You can’t just drop troops into a country like Iran — it’s too well-defended and unlike Afghanistan and Iraq, has a large and comparatively loyal military force.

        It’s no coincidence that Iran is now flanked on two opposing borders by deployed American troops.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 9:54 pm

        Well — the neocons thought Iraq would be an easy targets. Remember Rumsfeld and his “I doubt it’ll last months” speech?

      • Donald
        April 25, 2010, 10:00 pm

        ” You think Israelis are bigger haters based on some pictures and videos.”

        Some of us (or maybe most of us, but I couldn’t say) are not interested in proving that Israel would win a gold medal in the cruelty Olympics. We just want people in the US to know what they should know about Israeli behavior towards Palestinians, since we’re always hearing pleasant fairy tales about Israel and many of our politicians seem to line up to praise Israel with as much enthusiasm as if they were a Fourth of July speech about the virtues of the Founding Fathers. And this has an effect, at least in my experience. I could tell stories about well-educated friends of mine (most of them liberal) who say things about the conflict which are just ludicrously one-sided in favor of Israel–things which are common knowledge to us are totally unknown to them (though maybe the Gaza War has opened some eyes).

      • rachel
        April 25, 2010, 11:05 pm

        Well Donald, may be your intentions are good. I can’t say the same for many here. I believe you are one of the more “normal” people posting here. You are probably recoiling as you read this. Ha! And I am still tickled to bits you paid me a backhanded compliment by comparing my 4th rate writing to Maureen O’Dowd at her worst=:) (I only learned English as an adult)
        Your friends are not idiots. They can access the same info as you. May be they chose a side, just like you did. Or may be they just don’t care! It is a far away conflict.
        Let’s face it between the extreme demonization and the pleasant fairy tales lies the truth about Israel. I did not approve of the Gaza operation either and I am still a “rabid zionut”.
        OK. Time for bed.

      • Psychopathic god
        April 25, 2010, 11:21 pm

        Donald, I don’t know if we’re saying the same thing??

        What was stunning about the photo linked seemed to embody Arendt’s “banality of evil” phrase: a youngster — maybe 10? — wearing Jewish headgear– the youngster is kicking a woman who is wearing dress indicating she is likely Muslim. This is more than just one photo from a collection, it is emblematic of an attitude and a mindset — the mindset that says, I have a right to abuse Palestinians.

        So I think we’re saying the same thing.

        Quite honestly, it might be easier to solve the Palestinian problem than it will be to reform that Israeli mindset.

        yonira said some of us come here to rant, and maybe that’s true. I just listened to Reza Aslan explain in a nonchalant manner that he didn’t think Israel would attack Iran because, “If Israel wants you dead, your dead.” *
        And a civilized nation not only tolerates but supports such a value? god damn you, I don’t support that shit. don’t you goddamned israelis tell me that you share my country’s values; stay the hell in your own shitty little hellhole with your murderous sick minds. god i’m so angry.

        * not to worry, tho; Ilan Berman, or should that be Ilan Vermin, quite confidently advised that Israel was procuring weapons and materiel most likely intended for an attack on Iran, and Vermin proudly boasted that “Israel has the distinction of neutralizing two nuclear states.” Trifecta here we come.

        I have never in my life wished anyone dead, but if that piece of crap berman had an encounter with the wheels on a very large bus, the world would be a better place. what a hateful piece of crap he is.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 3:54 pm

        There is a growing parallel movement in the USA, the Public increasingly saying, Public says, hey, spend the money on the home folks, never mind Israel. The US congress and the military (starting to break) think sponsorship of Israel is strategically useful–at least, for Israel. Much worse than in Iran, because many US congress members actually think US and Israeli interests are always the same–this won’t change until US campaign finance laws are changed at the root, which is not in the cards. Not until US grassroots adds that issue to its tea parties.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 4:01 pm

        Yeah, still pining for the Shah, and they resent Canadian money going to the Pals, and have apparently nothing to say about the huge US dole to Israel. I’d say they know just what to say to friend rachel. Imagine what they say about her behind her back.

    • Citizen
      April 26, 2010, 3:17 pm

      What’s your point, rachel? Everybody here knows Germany was at the very apex of Western culture, art, and technology, a veritable font of Western civilization–when it introduced leaders like Hitler, Himmler, Goering, Goebbels, Speers, Rosenberg etc. The world powers milk the
      product of German science advanced during the NAZI period down to this day. So we should all support the Israeli regime?

      PS: Nazi Germany did it all in the face of any aid from the West; in contrast, Irael has always been dependent on the West for its achievments; most especially on all the enmeshed aspects of the “special relationship” it has had with the USA for so many decades.

      • Chaos4700
        April 26, 2010, 3:25 pm

        Moreso, Nazi Germany accomplished what it did under conditions of extreme financial collapse brought about by punitive demands from the Allied powers after the first World War.

  11. rachel
    April 25, 2010, 10:42 am

    Yikes–every school kid knows. Typing too fast.

  12. Richard Witty
    April 25, 2010, 10:50 am

    Somehow caring is no longer a virtue to solidarity. Political agitation is the only possible content in the world.

    • Chaos4700
      April 25, 2010, 10:53 am

      How many corpses of burnt Gazan children did you have to trample, metaphorically, in your mad rush to condemn the Palestinian cause?

      • VR
        April 25, 2010, 11:43 am

        Don’t you know Chaos4700? They feel that if they enrich the soil with enough dead Palestinian bodies that they have fulfilled their “environmental mandate.” They use all organic methodologies…

      • VR
        April 25, 2010, 11:47 am

        Than remember the ink and paper that they save, by not including their atrocities in their “historical” books. Perhaps a couple of centuries down the road they will have to admit what they have done, but just think of the environmental savings in the meantime, eh?

  13. eee
    April 25, 2010, 11:45 am

    The Iraqi Insurgency Celebrates Earth Day

    BAGHDAD (AFP) – Despite the hundreds of Iraqis killed in suicide bombings in recent days, Major Adam Warner is smiling. While it may be too early to completely validate the recent trend, Major Warner, CENTCOM’s officer in charge of environmental issues, is confident that the Iraqi Insurgency has gone green. According to Major Warner, in the lead up to Earth Day, all cars used by the insurgents in the bombings were hybrids. Major Warner is also investigating the possibility that one of the cars was a complete electric one.

    “We are very happy to see that environmental concerns are taking the fore in Iraq. This is a sign of significant progress and proof that Iraqis are on their way to building a environmentally friendly state”, said Major Warner.

    Sources close to the Iraqi insurgency confirmed the facts and stated:”We hate Shiites, Jews, Americans, Europeans ,the UN and many others. But we love the environment. The Toyota Prius is da bomb.”

    • Shmuel
      April 25, 2010, 12:12 pm

      Using fake “news” reports to change the subject now?

      • eee
        April 25, 2010, 12:20 pm

        I am not changing the subject. Israel has a right to pursue environmentally friendly strategies just as the US does, even if in certain cases the security measures it takes are not environmentally friendly.

      • potsherd
        April 25, 2010, 2:21 pm

        You are always changing the subject. That’s what Israel propagandists do.

        The subject is not Iraq, or Israel’s technology, or its “right to pursue environmentally friendly strategies.”

        The subject is the way Israel uses the pretense of environmental projects to the disadvantage of the Palestinians. Even if the projects should turn out to be genuinely green, they are still conducted to the disadvantage of the Palestinians.

        This is the fact you are attempting to divert attention from with all your clownish antics.

    • Danaa
      April 25, 2010, 12:23 pm

      eee, you, as supporter and inciter to murder of over 1 M Iraqis have no right to pipe in with your ghoulish sense of “humor”. I realize that being an Israeli means to hate all things arabs and the vaunted hebrew “culture” is replete with intense hatred for all things muslim and Arab and disdain for all things not ashkenazi (whatever that is). But just because someone learnt to mumble torah verses and juggle platitudes does not mean they have miraculously acquired a soul. After all, chimps can also be taught to mumble – and to juggle – and some would say, with better rythm too. You, eee, have the soul of a serial murderer. I have it good authority that Chimps are kind of offended to share this much DNA with the likes of you. All this evolution – millions of years – and for what? to bleet like an eee?

      I have a message for you from god, BTW. The powers that be are not happy to see torah turned into idol worship. Not happy at all. Now go contemplate what that means.

      • Shmuel
        April 25, 2010, 12:26 pm

        I agree. 3e’s attempt at “humour” was in very poor taste.

      • eee
        April 25, 2010, 12:34 pm


        I am not sure I understand your incoherent ramblings. Perhaps since you are a patent writer you can limit yourself just to the claims.

        I am an atheist Jew. Your God “speak” is really wasted on me.

        In recent days hundreds of Iraqis have been killed. That is a an issue that as an American liberal should be at the fore front of your concerns. Who has the soul of a serial murderer? It is you, the person that ignores the hundreds of dead in Iraq to focus on Israel, a small and insignificant country.

      • Danaa
        April 25, 2010, 1:05 pm

        eee, the Iraq invasion was done at the behest of israel, supported and abetted by israel and accomplished through its neocon plants in the US who infiltrated the once grand conservative party, and cowed the democratic opposition through machinations of which the devil himself would be proud (since you don’t care for god, maybe devils and demons would be more up your alley?). israel – and israelis – therefore stand guilty of the destruction of Iraq – just as much as America does. This was a war for Israel, a ploy hatched by zionistas and friends, using american soldiers as cannon fodder, and exploiting the dysfunctional state of its governmenance and the gullibility of its citizens. What israel is guilty of is not some “unintended” consequences but very much intended ones – including the death and disspossesion of so many.

        To help you understand: on some level, this is not unlike what Goldman sachs is guilty of – shorting junk assets they assembled and rated AAA, then crying “gevalt”, when short selling was caught in its full nakedness. The bogus gold rating wturned out to be part of the proverbial golden calf (oops, there I go biblically again).

        Of course, I realize that the US neocons, just like israel, just like financial “wizzards’ have sprayed “plausible deniability” all over the fields to cover up burial grounds of their the victims of their crimes. That does not mean that we – as in the people – stop calling war crimes and/or financial high jinx crimes by their true name – crimes. or that we fail to see the serious character failures that allow either.

        Was this analogy too incoherent for you?

        Seeing how god-speak doesn’t cut it with you, I’ll try some patent-speak next time. Maybe you should go bone up on that most obscure of all languages in the meantime? not that it would solve the challenge of incomprehension, which, in your case, I suspect, is too deeply embedded to be cured by resort to any simpler lingua franka ( also known as “frank speak”?)

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 1:07 pm

        ahhh the world of lefty conspiracies and patent law intertwined into one lunatic’s mind.

      • eee
        April 25, 2010, 1:12 pm


        You are perpetuating a blood libel with zero proof.
        The Iraq invasion was not at the behest of Israel. It was a joint decision of both the Democrats and the Republicans.

        If Israel can really “infiltrate” the GOP and “cow” the Democrats, why do you even bother fighting against us? The fact is that Israel obviously does not have any of the powers you attribute to it.

        I am beginning to wonder in what sense are you even a liberal if you are willing to claim Israel is behind the Iraq invasion when you have no proof of that. That is pure and simple irrational Israel hatred.

      • potsherd
        April 25, 2010, 2:13 pm

        Rational Israel hatred

      • VR
        April 25, 2010, 2:40 pm

        I have always said that what happened in Iraq was a confluence of interest, and it happened under an AIPAC watch. There wasn’t one media siren of neo-con that was not going full blast to support the war, and to call it necessary – mandatory. So whereas there were many interests which were served, including Israel’s, the chief engine of the war was definitely filled with neo-con fuel.

        The war was fought as a matter of power, hegemony over the region. It was not oil, because to be frank, oil can be brought up from any part of the earth. That which has merely escaped above the mantle is besides the point, all one has to do is frill into the mantle to get at almost unlimited oil – the Russians taught us this lesson a number of years ago. So all of the “resource” wars are merely excuses to project imperial power over the far reaches of the planet.

        Israel’s part in the “war on terror” is merely to bring unrest, and the Iraq war helped to insure its regional hegemony. Why not have unrest since most of the industry of note in Israel is war related, making it an engine for endlessly getting the war on – a new enemy, “we gotta get them terrorists.” So Israel did play a large part in the confluence of interest that bought on the war in Iraq.

        Now try to call me a nut eee, laden with “conspiracy theory.” The reality is that there are wars going on, over a million people have been killed, and this has indeed kept the military industrial complex in the USA humming and the Israeli one singing the chorus. The only hope of stopping this process is breaking the back of the whole of elite interest, I have my sight set and know exactly where to deliver the peoples payload.

      • Avi
        April 25, 2010, 2:51 pm

        I am an atheist Jew. Your God “speak” is really wasted on me.

        That’s not the only thing wasted on you. Seriously.

        You are perpetuating a blood libel with zero proof.

        You’re blind to the world around you.

      • VR
        April 25, 2010, 3:07 pm

        How else to you keep the murderous machine running? For the 2010 fiscal year, the president’s base budget of the Department of Defense rose to $533.8 billion. Adding spending on “overseas contingency operations” brings the sum to $663.8 billion. What some forget, however, is that intelligence is also part of the complex, the department of energy, homeland security, “other international programs,” space, veterans affairs, and other black hole activities which stretch into the billions – all mixed into the military budget (not to mention education which has long been complicit for research projects, etc.).


        Some say it is at 30% of the budget, actually it is a little over 50%.

      • Danaa
        April 25, 2010, 3:32 pm

        OK, VR you said it like it is (was). Today is not a good-nuance-day for me – more like a 2×4 smash-the-nuisance day. Off now to look for more things to smash – maybe, if I’m lucky I’ll find something really brittle?

      • kapok
        April 25, 2010, 5:16 pm

        You’re a pagan; you worship Dis

      • Psychopathic god
        April 25, 2010, 6:21 pm

        How Chalabi Conned the Neocons

        …Ahmed Chalabi will be among those judged most responsible for the Bush administration’s decision to invade Iraq and topple Saddam Hussein. More than a decade ago Chalabi teamed up with American neoconservatives to sell the war as the cornerstone of an energetic new policy to bring democracy to the Middle East — and after 9/11, as the crucial antidote to global terrorism. It was Chalabi who provided crucial intelligence on Iraqi weaponry to justify the invasion, almost all of which turned out to be false, and laid out a rosy scenario about the country’s readiness for an American strike against Saddam that led the nation’s leaders to predict — and apparently even believe — that they would be greeted as liberators. Chalabi also promised his neoconservative patrons that as leader of Iraq he would make peace with Israel, an issue of vital importance to them. A year ago, Chalabi was riding high, after Saddam Hussein fell with even less trouble than expected.

        Now his power is slipping away, and some of his old neoconservative allies — whose own political survival is looking increasingly shaky as the U.S. occupation turns nightmarish — are beginning to turn on him. … At least one key Pentagon neocon is said to be on his way out, a casualty of the battle over Chalabi and the increasing chaos in Iraq, and others could follow.

        “Ahmed Chalabi is a treacherous, spineless turncoat,” says L. Marc Zell, a former law partner of Douglas Feith, now the undersecretary of defense for policy, and a former friend and supporter of Chalabi and his aspirations to lead Iraq. …

        Zell, a Jerusalem attorney, continues to be a partner in the firm that Feith left in 2001 to take the Pentagon job. He also helped Ahmed Chalabi’s nephew Salem set up a new law office in Baghdad in late 2003. Chalabi met with Zell and other neoconservatives many times from the mid-1990s on in London, Turkey, and the U.S. Zell outlines what Chalabi was promising the neocons before the Iraq war: “He said he would end Iraq’s boycott of trade with Israel, and would allow Israeli companies to do business there. He said [the new Iraqi government] would agree to rebuild the pipeline from Mosul [in the northern Iraqi oil fields] to Haifa [the Israeli port, and the location of a major refinery].” But Chalabi, Zell says, has delivered on none of them.

        US Pentagon employee Douglas Feith, a zionist, told lies in order draw the US into war in order to gain advantages for the Israel, not the American people who paid his salary. Feith spent the treasure and blood of the American people in a scheme he and his Jerusalem-based law partner cooked up to gain trade and oil pipeline advantages for Israel.

        eee, based on this “proof,” I am assuming you will demonstrate the integrity of a zionist and recant your intemperate remarks to Danaa.

      • VR
        April 25, 2010, 7:38 pm

        Psychopathic god, with all due respect, everyone got involved for their own purposes – as well as Israeli interest. Unless of course, you think the USA is perpetually trapped by one solitary interest, the wars served purposes of many different interests – they always do.

        The Israelis did not build this massive military industrial complex in the USA, they just took advantage of it, along with others. This country (the USA) has had a major war every twenty years since its inception. On the grand chessboard (to use Z. Brzezinski terminology) of having accepted the mantle of imperial power from the Europeans. It has had a major war every twenty years since its inception, and whereas it was not all for Israel in all of these instances, it was for other elite interest. This has always been the function of this government, to serve elite interest and to be run by the “responsible class” – that is why anyone who is ruthless enough to rip off the people has been in charge, and why it was easy to infiltrate for other interests. War is endemic to capitalism plain and simple.

        Lest you think this is an incorrect picture of the history of the USA, just take a look at all of the military activity outside of the world wars (and you can count them also) –

        The US government has been involved in covert actions, in proxy mercenary wars (run by proteges of the School Of The America’s in some instances) – training, equipping, paying, advising, via the Pentagon, the CIA, and the US National Security State against popular revolutionary governments in Cuba, Angola, Mozambique, Ethiopia, Portugal, South Yemen, Nicaragua, Cambodia, East Timur, Western Sahara, Egypt, Lebanon, Peru, Iran, Zaire, Figi Islands, Afghanistan ( which is another woefully lacking list). Us forces with direct aggression and invasion have attacked in recent years Vietnam, the Dominican Republic, North Korea, Cambodia, Yugoslavia, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Libya, Iraq, Somalia, with invasion or aerial assault – once again a short list.

        Millions of people killed by both direct and indirect aggressive actions.

        All through the Middle East, popular movements, workers movements, unions, student movements, farmer collectives – all of them destroyed and shattered by US aggression in Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon. In Saudi Arabia that filthy rich, corrupt family would not be able to survive if they did not have US support.

        Twenty one countries in Africa have had enormous amounts of US arms, and bribes, to put in the most oppressive, retrograde, and corrupt rulers in to destroy every popular and democratic movement. Those in Africa are perfectly capable (contrary to racist propaganda, taught in US schools and spread by corporate media) of democracy, viable production, and have the ability to organize their own markets and labor – they are not allowed to do it!! Because of the destruction of the economic infrastructure, the impoverishment of the people, and the destruction of their future – they have killed the future of these nations. Drowning them in debt, tying their viability to foreign capital, and spiriting the wealth away from the people.

        Anyone who dares to question these atrocious actions is called a rogue state. There is no rogue state, no terrorist movement, no communist threat, that has this kind of record! This record of murder, destruction and violation of international law solely belongs to the US leadership. This is a matter of public record, it’s just that it does not get voiced in the corrupt media in the US.

        It is not good enough to just say that this is happening, we have to ask WHY is this happening. People have to know why these atrocities are going on – as long as they believe the lies that they are being protected nothing will happen. They do not care what their leaders are doing as long as they think they are protecting them. The leadership drums it into their heads that people are out to get them, the communists – someone in south/central America – someone from the moon – the terrorists, etc. I mean every year it is something else, it is really sickening.

        They do it because they want it all, they want to do whatever is necessary to fill the pockets of the few, the elite. They get rich while the people pay the price. The so-called war on terrorism is the elites ticket to carte blanch destruction of other countries without end – because it is a “new war,” and it is one that will “never end.”

        The struggle has always been between those who think the land, the labor, the resources, the markets, the technology, and the capital of the world are there for the capital accumulation and enrichment process of the few, as opposed to those who think those things are there for the needs and the social betterment of the many. That is the struggle that goes on to this day.

        If you think what I am talking about is a recent development you are sadly mistaken, in 1907 listen to what Woodrow Wilson said: “Since trade ignores national boundaries, and the manufacturer insists on having the world as a market – the flag of the nation must follow him, and the doors which are closed against him must be battered down. Concessions gained by finance must be safeguarded by ministers of state. Even if the sovereignty of the nations are outraged in the process. Colonies must be obtained and planted in order that no useful corner of the world may be overlooked or unused.”

        Now it is time to wake up, and understand that even though these current wars are of elite interest it is nothing new – there is nothing new about the activity. The American people have been set through cycles of impoverishment since its inception (about some 12 times severely), over and over again, because it is the same story of elite interest. Now suck it up and face the truth – by all means stop this relationship between the few and a government that says it represents a people, recognize there are some Jews involved and they have dual loyalties, but understand that it is nothing new. Set your sights on what causes the disease, instead of the mere symptoms – otherwise you will think you have cured it by going after this round of elites, and will have not solved anything substantive.

      • VR
        April 25, 2010, 8:13 pm

        To be frank I am getting tired of reminding everyone about the above. If you refuse to acknowledge what I have posted you are open to the charge of “conspiracy theories,” and they will come as you have seen.

        Do you think what I am saying is novel? Here is someone else to tell, right in the belly of the beast, listen to him –

        “War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small ‘inside’ group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.”

        “I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”
        U.S. Marine Major General Smedley Darlington Butler

        If you acknowledge this than your only reply can be – “well, at least some of the earlier elites had American interest involved and the people got something.” Really, you think there is some benevolent elite waiting in the wings? Than you know zero about history, or perhaps you just do not like it because Jews have a piece of the so-called pie.

        Than you have those who say that we cannot have it any better, and you are stuck with this perpetual war between the people and the few. That sometimes you gain ground and sometimes not, but it always ends with the eventual commiseration of the people – this has happened EVERY time. Some say, “oh, all we need is some reform,” bullshit, complete bullshit. If you embrace any of these views you know nothing about the beast you face, and are completely ignorant.

        Let me give you a glimpse at what is faced –

        WHAT WE FACE

        Here is a hint, it has not changed under Obama. Now it has come home again, this is because you cannot bifucate “foreign policy” form “domestic policy,” they always merge. So in short what we are facing is not something new, it is not something alien to the “American process,” and the remedy will not be had by new elites or reform.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 9:24 pm

        And of course no mention of Chalabi’s association with Iran. Great commentary….

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 9:25 pm

        Chalabi’s association with Iran is comparatively recent. It has nothing to do with the pre-invasion narrative.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 9:32 pm

        Chaos, Iran benefited from the the invasion just as much as Israel did. Iranian and Shiite influence has run wild within Iraq since the invasion. Chalabi’s association with Iran could have started well before the invasion.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 9:36 pm

        Oh yes, yonira, Iran totally benefited from being flooded by displaced Iraqi refugees and thousands of American troops on two opposite borders.

        Shi’ite influence has “run wild?” Do you have anything other than a Saturday morning cartoon-level perception of what really goes on in the Middle East?

        Do you have any actual plausible evidence to back up this “could’ve” conspiracy theory of yours?

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 9:42 pm

        You are clueless Chaos, how about trading between the two nations:

        link to

        You are aware that the Bathist were Sunnis yes? And the fall of the Bathist regime allowed for the Shiite majority in Iraq to gain representative power yes? Chalabi was from a prominent Shiite family yes?

        This might be a little too academic for your taste, but give it a try

        link to

      • potsherd
        April 25, 2010, 9:46 pm

        3e has no idea what a “blood libel” is, other than a term with which to smear anti-Zionists.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 9:50 pm

        “You are aware that the Ba’athist were Sunnis yes?”

        The Ba’athist were in their majority from Sunni tribes, because the political elites of Iraq have been from Sunni tribes. Ba’athism itself is not an exclusively Sunni phenomenon — in fact, it is a secular political philosophy with routes in Pan-Arabism.

        This is like saying the Democratic Party is a Jewish because most Jews belong to the Democratic Party rather than the Republican Party.

        Like I said, Saturday morning cartoon-level understanding.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 9:58 pm

        you didn’t address a thing i said chaos. you are a joke man, you never answer something directly you always find something you believe to be weak in a person’s argument and then pretend your proving your point by attacking that. while the basis of the argument where you are proven wrong isn’t addressed at all.

        lets try this again

        were the sunnis not in control of iraq? were the shia not the majority w/ zero power in the iraqi government. has iran-iraq cooperation not multiplied 10 fold since the invasion? do shia parties not have more control in iraq than the sunnis?

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 10:02 pm

        Ha! So now that I showed you don’t have a clue what “Ba’athist” really means, you drop it from your phony argument.

        Do you even know what the difference between Sunni and Shi’ite Islam actually is?

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 10:07 pm

        again more deflection, you are a joke. are you saying the bathist party in iraq wasn’t majority sunni? again you think you are proving something when you in fact are just making an ass out of yourself.

        link to

        divert all you want, maybe this is why i refuse to bring anything to the table on this blog because of this exact reason. you are a peon who thinks he has a clue. but in all reality you are a wikipedia whore, who thinks he knows everything b/c he can google.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 10:12 pm

        Goddamn but you are an idiot.

        “are you saying the bathist party in iraq wasn’t majority sunni?”

        What I said:

        The Ba’athist were in their majority from Sunni tribes, because the political elites of Iraq have been from Sunni tribes. Ba’athism itself is not an exclusively Sunni phenomenon — in fact, it is a secular political philosophy with routes in Pan-Arabism.

        This is like saying the Democratic Party is a Jewish because most Jews belong to the Democratic Party rather than the Republican Party.

        And how am I diverting? You’re the one who’s now lurched drunkenly into an attempt to spin some sort of idiotic conspiracy that Iran was behind the US Invasion of Iraq all along. We wouldn’t even be talking about what Ba’athists or Sunnis or Shi’ites are except Mr. Five-Year Probationary Jew is blasting us with worthless neoconservative commentary.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 10:15 pm


        you are a like the god damn hoover dam. keep on back-tracking. you are pretty deep right now but you can go deeper.

        this is why you aren’t worth debating because you can never really stay on track. get some aderall from your meth deaer. I am sure he’ll give you a discount for services rendered.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 10:17 pm

        and where did I say that Iran was behind the invasion, i merely brought up the plausibility of Chalabi’s ties to Iran pre-invasion. you are a fucking lying idiot. again are you just delusional or do you know you are lying? I honestly think you are delusional from the meth use.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 10:19 pm

        Yes, yonira, default to your “you’re a meth-snorting pedophile neo-Nazi fag” defense. It’s nice to see you haven’t lost even one ounce of your cogency. I think I’d be disturbed to see what an impossible, negative quantity of that quality would look like.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 10:21 pm

        i merely brought up the plausibility of Chalabi’s ties to Iran pre-invasion

        What, because Chalabi’s a Shi’ite, and Ahmedenijad is a Shi’ite, and that’s the extent of your “theory?”

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 10:22 pm

        you are the one who equates pedophilia with homosexuality. you have an obsession with naziism. the meth-snorter is speculation but it is the drug of choice in the gay and neo-nazi communities, so I don’t think its that much of a stretch.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 10:23 pm

        lol, u are impossible, are you really this stupid?

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 10:29 pm

        Hear that guys? Obviously Chalabi was a sleeper agent for Iran all along, and obviously I use methamphetamines.

        That’s Zionism for you. Trying to write rhetoric with one fist coiled tightly around a crayon.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 4:09 pm

        Eee, glad to hear you don’t believe the jews have had a contract with G-D since G-D does not exist. So, tell us, since you also have said you don’t believe in race theory, what are your credentials for being a Jew? Trot out a few, hopefully something more than your favorite comfort foods.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 4:21 pm

        Eee, wake up; try starting by googling PNAC and “Clean Break.” There is way more than zero proof that American neocon scribblers, stink tanks, MSM pundits, all aiding and abetting each other, along with the AIPAC-bribed US congress, fraudulently got the US into Shrub’s attack on Iraq. Now in its 8th year of draining the blood and treasure of Americans–to preseve Israel’s hegemongy in the Middle East.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 4:27 pm

        I think the US Marine general, Smedley, said all this truth long ago.

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2010, 8:22 pm

        “But just because someone learnt to mumble torah verses and juggle platitudes does not mean they have miraculously acquired a soul”

        What, hasn’t 3e announced to you that he is an “atheist Jew”? He’s very proud of that. Thinks it makes him better than all the dumb Jews like me who believe in God.
        God just gets in the way of Israel, and he’s not having that.

      • VR
        April 25, 2010, 8:54 pm

        “God just gets in the way of Israel, and he’s not having that.”

        If that were true Mooser things would be a lot harder. Unfortunately these deities never talk, it is the “faithful” that write and talk for them (here is nothing better than mute god’s who need someone to speak for them). So whatever interest there is, among the “faithful,” pick up their deity and become ventriloquists – he says this, and he says that.” He wants you to steal, lie, and go to war – he becomes the divine realtor. In fact, the simple of idea of a “divine mandate” is enough to move an entire people, and an elite wields it like a “benevolent” whip (look at the freakish fanaticism in Israel today, and the Manifest Destiny of yesteryear and actually for some really thick kuckers, today) –

        WHAT “GOD” WANTS

  14. rachel
    April 25, 2010, 12:18 pm

    With all due respect Shmuel, although I do find many of your posts thoughful and interesting, you are not the last word on everything Israeli. It was not a monoculture, the JNF planted many trees native to the Middle East such as oaks, carob, redbud, almond, etc. I even worked on a banana field when I spent time on a kibboutz as a teen.

    • Shmuel
      April 25, 2010, 12:24 pm

      With all due respect to Ruth, bananas were not planted by the JNF and are a commercial crop, not a forestation effort. In recent years the JNF has shifted toward native species, but ask anyone who knows anything about the environment in Israel and they will tell you that the JNF’s earlier pine monoculture policy has been disastrous in terms of diseases, pesticides and forest fires.

    • Mooser
      April 25, 2010, 8:23 pm

      “I even worked on a banana field when I spent time on a kibboutz as a teen.”

      I was always, always, and will always be glad I avoided that little bit of Zionist brainwashing. Do they still wear shorts and sandals and dance in a circle(shudder)?

  15. NormanF
    April 25, 2010, 2:47 pm

    Like the Gaza Arabs who trashed the greenhouses left for them and proceeded to pollute their own coast and went into the business of building bombs and rockets. For some reason, the Left isn’t exercised about Palestinian Arab lack of ecological awareness and a preference for things militarism over things Green.

    • Avi
      April 25, 2010, 2:53 pm

      […]proceeded to pollute their own coast

      How did they pollute their own coast?

      • potsherd
        April 25, 2010, 3:48 pm

        By putting their sewage treatment plant right where the IAF was going to drop its bombs.

      • Avi
        April 25, 2010, 4:00 pm

        By putting their sewage treatment plant right where the IAF was going to drop its bombs.

        Isn’t that typical of Palestinians? They’re always in the wrong place at the time. ;)

      • Shmuel
        April 25, 2010, 4:07 pm

        By putting their sewage treatment plant right where the IAF was going to drop its bombs.

        And their flour plant and their chicken farms and their dairy plant and their homes and their civilians. Bunch of anti-Semites.

    • Shmuel
      April 25, 2010, 3:28 pm

      Helen Cobban on the immortal greenhouse talking point:

      … Basically, the story was that the greenhouses (for which the departing settlers received a $14 million payment from the American group) were handed over to the Palestinians in far worse shape than the Palestinians had been led to expect. The Palestinian Investment Fund then spent $30 million to get them up and running, and to grow the first crop and get it to market. But at that point– just after Hamas’s election victory– the Israelis closed the Karnei freight crossing and the entire crop– strawberries, peppers, cut flowers, etc etc– had to be trashed. (The other option would have been to dump it on the Palestinian market and depress prices for the many other existing Palestinian growers.)

      “The Palestinian took the greenhouses under pressure,” he said. “Originally they didn’t want to take them because they knew that they only point of this operation would be to raise export crops… The Palestinians didn’t need more greenhouses for their own domestic consumption– they already had 12,000 greenhouses for that. But they knew that exporting these products would always be something completely at the whim of Israel, because of the problem of access to the markets… Sadly they were proved right. But they lost a lot of Palestinian money trying to make it work.”

      A similar account, by Greg Myre, appeared in the NYT.

    • Shingo
      April 26, 2010, 4:28 pm

      “Like the Gaza Arabs who trashed the greenhouses left for them and proceeded to pollute their own coast and went into the business of building bombs and rockets. For some reason, the Left isn’t exercised about Palestinian Arab lack of ecological awareness and a preference for things militarism over things Green.”

      That was completely debunked by Akiva Eldar and Edith Zitel in their study of the Gaza Withdrawl, “Lords of the Land”. It was the settlers that adopted a scortched earth policy as they withdrew.

    • Citizen
      April 26, 2010, 4:30 pm

      Yeah, NormanF, those American paid for Caterpiller D-9s, they really purify the air and
      smooth over the terrain, huh?

  16. NormanF
    April 25, 2010, 2:54 pm

    Rachel is correct: Israel is a leader in Green technologies long before they became fashionable in the West: to name but a few: drip water irrigation, desalination and solar energy. All of which has improved the quality of life for millions of people around the world. And the care for G-d’s things is found in the Torah and in Jewish tradition. I just thought I’d correct the record on here.

    • potsherd
      April 25, 2010, 3:46 pm

      Rachel is also irrelevant. Whether Isreal is a leader in Green technology is beside the point. The point is that Israel uses its purported concern for the environment as an excuse to oppress the Palestinian population.

    • Psychopathic god
      April 25, 2010, 6:26 pm

      I recall in Sunday school reading Torah accounts of how Jews invented cherry tomatoes.

      i think it was in the garden of eban.
      or was that Abba.

      no, those were Swedish meatballs, not tomatoes.

    • VR
      April 25, 2010, 6:57 pm

      “…drip water irrigation…” Norman, dip ship, this has been going on for over a thousand years in the ME, and it had nothing to do with Israelis. Where do these imbeciles come from?

    • Mooser
      April 25, 2010, 8:26 pm

      “And the care for G-d’s things is found… “

      Yes I’ve heard white phosphorus is a preservative.

  17. NormanF
    April 25, 2010, 2:57 pm

    The raw sewage dumped off Gaza for one thing. One would like to see Western peace groups bash Israel less and try to get the Arabs to move from hatred of Israel to improving their own lives.

    Incidentally, Israel treated the daughter of the Hamas Interior Minister in an Ashkelon hospital before allowing her to be transported to Jordan for treatment. One had pressed to think of a case in history where such mercy has been shown to an enemy.

    • Avi
      April 25, 2010, 3:07 pm

      The raw sewage dumped off Gaza for one thing. One would like to see Western peace groups bash Israel less and try to get the Arabs to move from hatred of Israel to improving their own lives.

      1. Israel pumps raw sewage into the Mediterranean, some treated, some not.

      2. Israel bombed a sewage treatment facility in Gaza, causing it to pollute the beaches and nearby water, including fresh water.

      Incidentally, Israel treated the daughter of the Hamas Interior Minister in an Ashkelon hospital before allowing her to be transported to Jordan for treatment. One had pressed to think of a case in history where such mercy has been shown to an enemy.

      link to

    • Avi
      April 25, 2010, 3:18 pm

      By the way, those Arabs you speak of, they’re called Palestinians.

    • potsherd
      April 25, 2010, 3:43 pm

      One would like to see Western peace groups bash Israel less and try to get the Arabs to move from hatred of Israel to improving their own lives.

      Since Israel constantly ruins the lives of “the Arabs”, it is right and proper to bash them for it. There is no reason that Israel should be immune from criticism.

      Perhaps you missed this insightful report from a member of Yesh Din:

      Palestinian villages are increasingly unprotected by the IDF, which does provide extensive protection for Jewish settlements. At the same time, however, Palestinians are not allowed to possess weapons; the IDF arrests people caught with knives or guns in their possession. Settlers, on the other hand, are permitted by law to carry weapons.

      Meanwhile, the IDF is acting according to increasingly draconian orders to suppress non-violent demonstrations against the occupation that are organized and led by grassroots Palestinian movements. Leaders of popular resistance organizations are dragged from their beds during night raids, arrested and jailed – often indefinitely. The villages in which demonstrations take place on Friday mornings have been declared closed military zones. Those who violate the army’s orders and come out to demonstrate are regularly shot at with rubber bullets, doused with skunk gas, beaten and arrested.

      For Palestinians in the West Bank, the sense of helplessness and frustration must be enormous. When they are attacked, they can almost never hope for justice within the framework of the legal system. Nor are they allowed to defend themselves. Nor can they expect the IDF to protect them. And even when they protest these injustices using nonviolent methods – marching, chanting and waving flags – they are punished with arrests and violence, with dehumanizing skunk gas and beatings. So what happens when there is no legal recourse or justice for the injured and no real civic structure, and when the moderates are systematically crushed?

      • Avi
        April 25, 2010, 4:02 pm

        Exactly. And when the Palestinians dare defend themselves, they’re labeled “terrorists” and hauled off to jail or executed at gun point.

    • Psychopathic god
      April 25, 2010, 6:32 pm

      Bam 6.6

      Bam 6.6 follows the experiences of Adele Freedman, A Jewish-American woman who was vacationing in Bam with her fianc�, Tobb Dell’Oro, when the earthquake struck. Adele, who is forced to face Tobb’s tragic death alone in the crumbling city, halfway around the world, finds surprising comfort when the Muslim citizens of Bam reach out to her. The film interweaves Adele’s experiences with the experiences of Iranian survivors, who provide a painful reality of the earthquake’s devastating toll on their community. Adele and her family quickly discover that falling bricks and collapsing walls do not distinguish between Jew, Christian, or Muslim, between American and Iranian.

      03/05/10 Bam 6.6 screened at US Naval Academy in Annapolis

      www dot payvand dot com/news/10/mar/1038.html

      • Psychopathic god
        April 25, 2010, 6:37 pm

        Adele Freedman spent weeks in a hospital in Iran, where her treatments and fees were all free of charge. Her parents stayed with her in Iran as guests of the people of Iran. Iranian nurses cried with Adele and surrounded her with love and support as she absorbed the news of the death of her fiance.

        Bam 6.6 is one of the most powerful films I have seen. I am pleased that it has been screened at the US Naval Academy.

  18. Shmuel
    April 25, 2010, 3:14 pm

    See Ch. XIII of the Report of the United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, art. 962-974.

    974. Notwithstanding the possible military advantage offered to the Israeli armed forces by the plant’s location, the Mission cannot find any justification for striking the lagoon with what must have been a very powerful missile, sufficient to cause a breach 5 metres deep and 22 metres
    wide. It is highly unlikely that Palestinian armed groups could have taken up positions in or around the lagoon after the initial occupation of the area by Israeli armed forces: any such groups would have been exposed in the open area. The fact that the lagoon wall was struck precisely there where it would cause outflow of the raw sewage suggests that the strike was
    deliberate and premeditated.

  19. VR
    April 25, 2010, 3:25 pm

    There is not one act of “mercy” performed by the Israeli government that does not have multiple cameras going for the publicity value. When you highlight an act of “mercy” while covering up all of the other atrocities it is called PR. It is just like when you highlight the acts of violence of the Palestinians while leaving out the settler colonial murderous process which pushes people to such lengths. Show me another card trick –


    • VR
      April 25, 2010, 3:32 pm

      Of course, in the above link the only difference what Israel is doing is not entertainment, but results in massive destruction and death.

      • Avi
        April 25, 2010, 4:14 pm

        […] is not entertainment

        I know what you mean. But, sardonically one might say, “that’s arguable”, given the writings on the walls left by Israeli soldiers in Palestinian homes after the Gaza massacre and the subsequent shirt printing trend.

        link to

        link to

  20. rachel
    April 25, 2010, 5:05 pm

    1. I am not playing.
    2. Take your quizz and do the proverbial thing with it.
    3. I don’t give shit what you think. Don’t respond to my posts.
    3. put your quizz on the couch and psycho-analyse like you do with everything. You silly Freud wannabe.
    4. You are a kook, you know.
    5. As for Arizona, haha. You know very well that I know where it is. Is this all you have on me? I drove from Montreal to Arizona many times. My in laws used to winter there.
    7. Oh, I forgot, fuck off. Is this nuanced enough for you?

    • Mooser
      April 25, 2010, 8:29 pm

      My, there’s one thing you can always count on Zionist supporters for, they get mean when you mess with their ziocaine high!
      Watch out, they bite like poodles.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 4:53 pm

        Yeah, rachel’s racist to the core, and proud of it. She’s got a tin home trailer mindset. A regular jewish hillbilly gal.

  21. rachel
    April 25, 2010, 5:08 pm

    I forgot 6. Here it is
    6. Stop exploiting your Israeli connection. That was like 80 years ago. You have no clue.

  22. rachel
    April 25, 2010, 5:10 pm

    Oh Damn. I have two number 3. Chaos is right. Full blown dementia.

    • Danaa
      April 25, 2010, 5:44 pm

      Looks like I found something brittle after all. Thanks. That felt good.

  23. Danaa
    April 25, 2010, 5:34 pm

    rachel/ruth, so, a little quiz is all it takes to unhinge you? and you then suggest that it is I who is well over 100 years old now? I hope the long trip from Montreal to the famous pine trees state has not been too rough on you.

    BTW, if I am indeed somewhere upward of the magic 100 year mark, me thinks I am doing pretty well. Chimps must be quite pleased with at least some of their DNA mutations.

    ps The next quiz will be on number theory (since you seem to dislike psychology and the environmental sciences are apparently in need of too much remediation). It does look like you could use a brush-up on some number basics. Not to worry, we won’t get as far as calculus. Arithmetic should be plenty, it seems.

    • Avi
      April 25, 2010, 6:12 pm


      You’ve certainly hit a nerve. The behavior displayed above is reminiscent of the likes of these. Every time she posts, that image pops in my head.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 6:16 pm

        Rachel/Ruth has proved herself to be solely one big nerve — with no brain tissue at either end of it.

      • Cliff
        April 25, 2010, 7:40 pm

        Settler freaks. Get out of Palestine!

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 7:56 pm

        Genius cliff, you blew my mind with that one.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 7:59 pm

        You can’t blow a vacuum — it only sucks.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 8:10 pm

        ok, now that was lame. i guess you can’t be on all the time…..

      • Cliff
        April 25, 2010, 8:17 pm

        Thanks yonira, it’s always an honor to be complimented by someone as intelligent and well-read as you.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 8:24 pm

        debating you is like debating a settler cliff, self-absorbed know-it-all i am better than everyone prick.

      • Cliff
        April 25, 2010, 8:31 pm

        What debate? You don’t debate, you cry and whine.

        If Phil moderated the blog commentary, to filter out ‘point-scoring’ as defined by the Hasbara Handbook, and the other intellectually dishonest rhetoric Zionist douchebags use to hijack discussion on this issue – then we’d have a debate.

        What we have here is a bunch of interesting and intelligent people, like Shumel or Danaa for example, and inanely idiotic trolls like yourself, eee, the fascist settler freak UNIX, etc. etc.

        The post/anti/non-Zionists here debate. Wondering Jew – the only respectable Zionist there is on this blog and perhaps I’ve come across in online discussion – debates.

        You do not debate. You troll.

        The end.

        Call me any number of names you want. I treat you this way because from one of your posts to the next, you’re as bad as you were the first day you got here. From that disgusting post you made about Gazan children, to framing Anna Baltzer’s success through the Zionist lens of ethno-religious ‘exceptionalism’.

        It’s not that I may be a ‘know it all’ – it’s that you’re a know-nothing douchebag and self-centered Jewish supremacist.

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2010, 8:31 pm

        Yonira, how dare you hate on settlers! Those settlers are the backbone of our Zionist efforts! They are laying down their lives for you, and what do you do? You compare them to Israel-criticisers! You better watch out I don’t tell the head Rabbi, or No. 1 Israeli, or… say, yonira, come to think of it, who is the king of the Israelis?

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 8:34 pm

        So you’re saying Cliff’s basically a version of you who can use the Shift key, and go more than two consecutive evenings without blogging in a drunken stupor?

        I disagree.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 8:34 pm

        please explain this disgusting comment about gaza children and anna baltzer, you bring them up repeatedly but never explain what you are talking about.

        israel hating freak!

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 8:34 pm

        you and cliff sound like settlers.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 8:36 pm

        Seriously, dude. Enter a twelve-step program. This is getting embarrassing.

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2010, 8:55 pm

        What’s so wrong with settlers? Gosh durn it, they are the spine, the backbone, the heart of Zionism. The tradition of “settling” is what made Zionism what it is today. How dare you criticise them, Israel hater! And oh yeah, anti-Semite! Most of those settlers (except for the atheists, of course) are Jews. How dare you criticise them!

      • Cliff
        April 25, 2010, 11:55 pm

        I have explained it OVER AND OVER in the past you fucking liar.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 4:59 pm

        Yeah, next thing we know, you will be criticizng The Mythos Of The 20th Century, by Rosenberg! And trotting out his map of the world!

  24. rachel
    April 25, 2010, 6:15 pm

    Touche! You got me there girl! Damn! You win this round! I knew you will exploit it when I saw my errors. Ah well. Curse my hastiness in pressing that submit button! Enjoy your “victory” you earned it fair and square.
    P.S. Please, do go easy on me in the next round of quizzes =:)

    • Chaos4700
      April 25, 2010, 6:16 pm

      We’re not playing a game, you psychotic bitch. We’re trying to save the Palestinians from a mortal threat to their existence.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 6:51 pm

        You don’t give a shit about Palestinians, you just want an end to Zionism because a few Israelis were rude to you in some online fantasy world.

      • potsherd
        April 25, 2010, 6:54 pm

        In the absence of facts, insult the opposition.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 7:04 pm

        Somebody? The rachel’s dog needs to be taken for a walk outside again. It’s whimpering.

      • sherbrsi
        April 25, 2010, 7:19 pm


        Chaos you really put yonira the tool in his place.

      • Cliff
        April 25, 2010, 7:39 pm

        Hey yonira, do you really believe the bullshit you continually pollute this blog with?

        With all the crimes that shitty little Levantine country has done to the Palestinians, do you honestly think we ARBITRARILY care about Israelis and Zionism MORE than we do about the Palestinians?

        Fuck you loser. We couldn’t care less about your self-worshiping cult. Keep your pathological narcissism to yourself, nutcase. Don’t project it on others.

        It’s funny. Phil has reported on countless Zionist crimes. You rarely if ever, deal w/ the content of the topic. Same as with that Zionist witch Rachel. You people are sick. Delusional sadists.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 7:54 pm

        Yes Cliff, I honestly think that you, Chaos, and all of the arm chair activists could give a shit about the Palestinians. It’s all about Israel the great Satan.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 7:59 pm

        Noun, verb, anti-Semite. The foul mouth semi-Jew continues to bleat on. Don’t worry, I’m sure he’ll become to intoxicated to read the screen within a few more hours, and then we’ll have some peace.

      • Cliff
        April 25, 2010, 8:14 pm

        Whatever you say, psycho. Keep deluding yourself.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 8:21 pm

        you’ve never been w/ a guy, are u semi-gay?

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 8:28 pm

        I can tell you right now I’ve been gay for much longer than merely five years.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 8:32 pm

        didn’t answer my question, have you had the equivalent of a mikveh and bar mitzvah in the homosexual realm?

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2010, 8:34 pm

        “You don’t give a shit about Palestinians, you just want an end to Zionism “

        So you admit in order to care about the Palestinians, Zionism must be dismantled. Oh well, that’s your choice to make, and you’ve made it.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 8:38 pm

        So now yonira’s been reduced to giving me the Spanish Inquisition about my sex life as some sort of “rebuttal.”

        On an article about Earth Day and Israeli apartheid.

        I think we can consider this debate concluded, right?

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2010, 8:53 pm

        And once again, I’m sure thousands of Mondoweiss readers came away impressed with the Zionist-supporters reasoning skills, rhetoric, and manners.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 8:58 pm

        Mondoweiss readers had their minds made up before they started visiting this site Mooser. It is a fairly close minded group you have here.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 8:59 pm

        you bring up my judaism i bring up your man love.

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2010, 9:03 pm

        Your Judaism? The kind that denies that Judaism descends through the Mother? The kind that thinks any old convert can be a Jew? Or is that part of this new atheist Judaism 3e belongs to?

        You your very own self said that most Jews in Israel would consider you trafe. What the hell do you know about Judaism, beyond self dealing, land stealing and murder? Sure those are an important part of some religions, but it’s not the whole thing, you know.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 9:14 pm

        what are you blathering about? smoke em if you got em i guess.

      • zamaaz
        April 25, 2010, 9:31 pm

        Yonira, I have been reading the entries here since yesterday, and I am really entertained by the way the Jews (?) exchange barbs…I was so amused, and I was lost… I can hardly find solid arguments, its full of funny personal insults…By the way, I would like to ask, as much as possible, to avoid the issue of homosexuality, because it completely deprives the opposite party the ‘intellectual chance’ to argue…We do recognize that homosexuality is an outward manifestation of spiritual, physical, emotional, and psychological perversion or abnormality…take it or leave it…it is a self conflict… hoping for you consideration.

      • yonira
        April 25, 2010, 9:37 pm

        you’re gonna get some flack for that one Zamaaz. Homosexuality is not a psychological perversion or abnormality. That is a ridiculous thing to say, are you a baptist? do you protest at US soldier’s funerals?

        You sound like this freak: link to

        Not to be outdone:
        link to

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 9:38 pm

        …and there you have it, folks. Zionism!

      • VR
        April 25, 2010, 9:41 pm

        “It is a fairly close minded group you have here. ”

        No yonira, for the most part, it is a very clear thinking group. That is something you are not used to, all the lies and subterfuge will not permit clear thinking. There are times I thought of giving you the nick name “yoni the yoyo,” but why say it when you repeatedly prove it with your posts…lol

      • zamaaz
        April 25, 2010, 9:50 pm

        The fact that the effeminate is included here;
        [ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (1Corinthians 6:9)]

        It implies that during the creation there was no third sex:

        And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. (Genesis 2:22)

        And that solemnity of marriage is only between man and a woman… I cannot find a room for third sex here…

        [Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (Genesis 2:24)]

        In fact this sodomy was one of primary causes the twin city of Sodom and Gomorrah was obliterated by the Divine act:

        [And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. (Genesis 19:5)]

        Know: (Hebrew yada` ) lie by man.

      • zamaaz
        April 25, 2010, 9:54 pm

        It does not require to be a baptist if one searches the scriptures…

      • zamaaz
        April 25, 2010, 9:56 pm

        But they can be one of the baptists (to be fair with the baptists) after all these searches in the scriptures…

      • VR
        April 25, 2010, 10:20 pm

        Well zamaaz, thanks for “quoting” from the Genesis poem. Yes, you heard me right, in the Hebrew it is a poem set in couplets. So your tales have little to do with human relations, and your disdain for different sexual orientation. This is the primitive way, what is not understood is vilified and banned, condemned.

        However I do not expect you to understand these matters, because of your penchant for literalism and a goyish understanding based on the improper use of what you term scripture. Hell, the first eight chapters of the bible (as you know it) are nothing but borrowed religious stories based on other traditions. That is another thing I do not expect you to understand, but what else is new?

      • Shmuel
        April 26, 2010, 2:39 am

        Z: By the way, I would like to ask, as much as possible, to avoid the issue of homosexuality, because it completely deprives the opposite party the ‘intellectual chance’ to argue…

        I’m not quite sure how that applies to homosexuality, but it is exactly what I have been saying to you about revelation-based arguments ever since you got here: they completely deprive the opposite party of the ‘intellectual chance’ to argue

      • Mooser
        April 26, 2010, 2:31 pm

        You tell ’em zamaaz! How can Israel possibly prevail if it’s full o perverts and stuff. zamaaz, I think you may be the man to save the Jews!

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 5:02 pm

        So, yonia, what’s your excuse? Not enough dead palestinian kids from US paid-for white phosophorous? Your Wall needs more Ameican bucks? You don’t like those Russian immigrants with only one Jewish grandparent?

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 5:06 pm

        Mooser is asking, yonira, on what basis, what credentials, what litmus test, do you consider yourself a Jew (another issue is what
        leadership role have you been elected to, to speak for all Jews)?

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 5:15 pm

        Mooser wants to know, yonira, what is your litmus test for being a real jew?

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 5:22 pm

        Zamaaz, no wonder you can not find solid arguments here–nobody thinks the bible is anything but a fable, itself cobbled together from older fables (sans proper accreditation). That is especially so regarding Torah.

  25. Mooser
    April 25, 2010, 9:00 pm

    Well, at any rate, it’s nice to know that Yonira, eee, Julian, UNIX and Rachel all look up to Richard Witty as a senior Zionist, an elder skatesman (he skates out of every argument) and a regular guy.
    It’s good that you guys get together with Richard and prepare your responses together. Zionism cannot survive without unity! UNITY! Everybody can’t be there own Magnet Zionist, some of us have to be the little filings which they line up in patterns.
    And for you guys, Witty is the head magnet, a positive influence!
    It’s so nice to see. Zionism must have respect for its elders.

  26. Richard Witty
    April 25, 2010, 9:39 pm

    Well, in that odd potshot from our liberated model.

    I am confident in my convictions, and your comments if anything confirm them, that Zionism still remains a necessity for the Jewish people, even if the form of the necessity has changed since its founding.

    And, that in order to preserve Israel as Israel, it is necessary for Israel to entirely drop any expansionist objectives anywhere, even a few acres. And, that Israel should afford Palestinians and other minorities within Israel, full and equal civil rights. And, that Israel should expand its basis of citizenship to include location of birth, and primary relationship to a person whose citizenship is by birthplace. And, that Israel should give every Palestinian dispossessed in 1948 or subsequently, within Israeli sovereign borders their day in court to assert title claims.

    And, then with those provisions in place, recognize the sovereign state of Palestine (whether defined as the West Bank, and/or Gaza per Palestinian definition), and seek to be a good neighbor.

    And, following that just basis of reconciliation, stand with a strong backbone, knowing that it has met all of the legitimate bases of objection to its existence and security.

    Specifically, if a state indicates that it is warring with Israel by repeated aggressive actions, then it will be a war between contending states, with no opportunistic pretense of immunity from accountability by stating “we are resisting occupation”, or “we are not a state”.

    • Chaos4700
      April 25, 2010, 9:44 pm

      And, that in order to preserve Israel as Israel, it is necessary for Israel to entirely drop any expansionist objectives anywhere, even a few acres.

      Israel has been nothing but military expansionism. That is what it was from day one in 1948 when it was founded with bloodshed and theft and the forced removal of half the country’s non-Jewish population (overwhelmingly, the actual natives) and the ethnic cleansing hasn’t let up for even a day.

      Witty, there are bulldozers at work on Palestinian homes and farms very probably right this minute.

      I find that some small consolation, Witty, that your inability to comprehend that Israel is nothing but the occupation, that your insistence on pursuing that scalding hot boiling pot of gold at the end of the phosphorescent rainbow, you’re essentially helping us rid the world of Zionism anyway.

    • zamaaz
      April 25, 2010, 10:10 pm

      Richard Witty a value your intent but there is a technical legal problem here:
      [And, that Israel should afford Palestinians and other minorities within Israel, full and equal civil rights. ]
      Which Palestinians do you refer? Inside or outside Israel sovereignty? Sad to say, outside its sovereignty, Israel can’t do anything about rights…only to response accordingly to preserve its sovereignty….this is the reason why accusations of Apartheid cannot ‘hold water’ and irrelevant…Inside, no problem….

      • Richard Witty
        April 25, 2010, 10:21 pm

        I was referring to within Israel perse.

        Its application of its primary law is inconsistent. It guarantees equal rights to minorities, but does not follow through consistently on it.

      • Chaos4700
        April 25, 2010, 10:22 pm

        Guarantees equal rights to minorities? What, you mean insofar as any non-Jewish property can be seized by the state and summarily doled out to Jewish immigrants?

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 5:27 pm

        Witty, you see that zamaaz doesn’t hear you, that for him “Inside, no problem….”? How would you like to live as a non-Jew inside Israel per se? You gotta admit, you rather say here in the USA, even though it’s 97% non-Jewish. The proof is in the pudding. Where do you live?
        Near Vermont, right?

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 5:28 pm

        Ooops, typo: I mean you rather stay here in the USA.

    • Citizen
      April 26, 2010, 5:12 pm

      Err, dick witty, is that state you mentioned warring with Israel with its own army, air force, navy? It not, why is that? Is it alternatively, a state like the Vatican, with only a few guards holding ancient axes? Is that a sovereign state such as any of those recognized by the UN?

  27. potsherd
    April 25, 2010, 10:20 pm

    It’s past time for a new thread

  28. rachel
    April 25, 2010, 10:26 pm

    “The Israeli doctrine is very simply that whatever Mideast state appears to be likely to become the most powerful is by definition a threat and must be destroyed”

    And this is based on what evidence exactly? Potsherdism? Wishful thinking?Gut feeling? Investigative journalism? Research?

    • potsherd
      April 25, 2010, 10:34 pm


      • Avi
        April 25, 2010, 10:44 pm



        That reminds me of this joke:

        Sergeant: Private, did you scale the side of the building or did you hold your rooftop position?

        Private: Yes!

        Sergeant: Yes what?

        Private: Yes, Sir!

      • Polly
        April 26, 2010, 1:03 am

        Walked into that one eh Rachel?

    • Avi
      April 25, 2010, 10:36 pm

      It actually comes from the Dayan Center at Tel-Aviv university when in the late 1980s, that think tank came up with three spheres of threat in the Middle East. Israel categorized neighboring countries into three categories, first, second and third. Iraq was in the second sphere, Iran was categorized as part of the third sphere. The idea was, that once all three spheres are dealt with, Israel would have regional dominance for decades to come.

      • potsherd
        April 26, 2010, 7:24 am

        Exactly. But shortly afterward, Iran got designated as a higher-level threat, even though it would have been happy to continue with semi-normal relations with Israel.

        But Iran is now playing for regional dominance itself and thus is a threat to US/Israeli hegemony.

      • Citizen
        April 26, 2010, 5:32 pm

        The record shows that Israel would have preferred Shrub to attack Iran before Iraq, but Israel jumped on Shrub’s bandwagon once assured the US would deal with Iran after it dealt with Iraq. It was hard to overcome Shrub’s annoyance at Saddam’s attempt to kill his daddy.

  29. LanceThruster
    April 27, 2010, 1:14 pm

    I always hate to say that “I really enjoyed this article” when it is about such a troubling set of circumstances because it sometimes seems to me that I am saying that I take some sort of pleasure from these troubling circumstances…but I really enjoyed this article.

    The only thing missing from the irony of the hour of darkness would be if they used white phosphorus for illumination and then disposed of it in an ecologically responsible manner.

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