Will the absurdity of Mamilla open people’s eyes?

Israel/PalestineUS Politics
on 208 Comments

Before going to Rashid Khalidi and Michael Ratner’s talk on the Mamilla Cemetery at Columbia University last week, I had a drink with a friend who is completely ignorant about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict — not even on his radar.

I gave him the elevator pitch on the situation: "It’s an ancient Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem that an American Jewish group is building a ‘Museum of Tolerance’ on top of."

The irony was not lost on my friend. He was shocked. "Really?" he asked, and turned to a friend to repeat it.

Khalidi emphasized the absurdity at the lecture: "Just the facts: They are building a ‘Museum of Tolerance’ on the oldest Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem. You say that enough times, it should stop them."

Lots of people are trying, but it doesn’t work. Where’s the disconnect?

Khalidi said that the government of Israel is notoriously deaf to international public opinion, but the government of Israel isn’t building the museum. Rather the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center, a 501(c)(3) organization, is the one subverting international law — remember UN resolutions place Jerusalem as an international city, and protect sites of interest — with tax-exempt U.S. dollars.

As noted in an earlier post,, Khalidi put the affair within the context of the whole of Jerusalem. So did Center for Constitutional Rights head Michael Ratner. CCR is spearheading a petition to block further desecration on behalf of families like the Khalidis, whose ancestors are buried in Mamilla.

"What you have to conclude is that they want to take this spot," Ratner said, "then the next spot. It’s clear they want to eradicate any presence of Muslims in Jerusalem."

The Wiesenthal Center and its Israeli allies seem indeed to have nefarious intentions here, evidenced by the exploitation of the "everybody knows" meme on final status issues of a peace agreement. Those in the U.S. — from where dollars fund, as Ratner put it, "huge bulldozers and earth moving machines just destroying the ground" (the graves, that is) — who don’t see the patent absurdity are willfully blind.

But thanks to Ratner, Khalidi and other activists, more and more people are seeing what’s right in front of them. I told my friend, he told his. And Khalidi says it’s bringing other things to the fore: the disproportionate Israeli protection of antiquities (all 137 sites Israel has designated are Jewish) and the destruction of mosques and churches in Arab villages whose occupants were driven out in 1948. Most importantly, it raises issues about all of Jerusalem.

"Israel has done more than just damage this cemetery," Khalidi said. "Israel has opened up a can of worms by allowing this to happen."

It’s a can of elephants. They’re in the room. Let’s see who notices.

208 Responses

  1. UNIX
    April 18, 2010, 10:34 pm

    Yet nothing is said of the burning of Jewish synagogues in Gaza. Nothing is said of the Jordanian Waqf preventing Jews from praying at the temple mount.

    Name one Islamic country with a Museum of Tolerance.

    • Chaos4700
      April 18, 2010, 10:39 pm

      Islamic countries, by and large, do not raze graveyards.

      As has been pointed out NUMEROUS times, Jews were never barred from the temple mount. ISRAELIS were, naturally enough, but Jews themselves? Not barred. Tree has spoken of her family’s own personal experience.

      Synagogues burnt in Gaza huh? Can you provide some factual information about this? Like if it happened before or after the Lavon affair, for instance?

      • UNIX
        April 18, 2010, 10:58 pm

        The above comments are untrue, Jordanians destroyed Jewish graves in Jerusalem, Jewish graves are vandalized in Yemen and in many other places.

        The above comments are false and a lie. Synagogues were burnt in Gaza.

        The above poster is an anti-semite

      • Chaos4700
        April 18, 2010, 11:15 pm

        No evidence? Check.
        No links? Check.
        Categorical denial of well-documented Israeli state terror (ostensibly against other Jews, indirectly)? Check.
        Calling someone an anti-Semite merely to silence them? Check.

      • Avi
        April 18, 2010, 11:26 pm

        The above comments are untrue, Jordanians destroyed Jewish graves in Jerusalem, Jewish graves are vandalized in Yemen and in many other places.

        The above comments are false and a lie. Synagogues were burnt in Gaza.

        The above poster is an anti-semite

        You never support your claims with credible sources. When pressed for proof, you disappear.

      • Taxi
        April 18, 2010, 11:51 pm


        I wager approx 80% of unix’s posts contain the vile accusative label of anti-semite – used instantly and immediately when ANYONE disagrees with her/him.

        Please report his/her abuse and slander, even when she/he uses it unfairly on others.

        I suspect he/she’s been paid to come here and do exactly this: so as to diminish the true value of mondo’s posting activities in the eyes of the non-posters/casual visitors.

        Please report this kind of abusive behavior immediately and relentlessly.

        She/he are here to smear and sabotage with paycheque to boot.

        I’m serious bro.

      • VR
        April 19, 2010, 12:43 am

        This is an excessively abusive troll (UNIX) that has come under different names on different sites. TGIA tried to warn you about him, he is a freak that obsessively tries to upset anything that will stop the total wiping out of Muslims – Arabs, etc. A consummate racist, on other sites he has appeared as sweden1975, he should be summarily dismissed with prejudice.

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 19, 2010, 12:53 am

        An additional element which makes me think UNIX is Sweden1975 is that the later could never get sarcasm! It used to baffle me!

      • VR
        April 19, 2010, 1:25 am

        I think you hit the bulls eye again TGIA, after all you had plenty of experience with this persistent troll. He was particularly pernicious when the Angry Arab originally had his blog interactive, it is like dealing with an abusive retard. Now he thinks he can appear as “Jewish” and it is going to give him staying power, and he will verbally defecate all over the site.

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 19, 2010, 2:07 am

        I might as well cite some of his “famous” quotes, starting with the one about oriental Jews:
        “I’d rather hang myself than be an oriental Jew”

        On the Arab and the oriental Jew:
        “They’re ugly, unlike the German type, tall and beautiful.”

        “The definition of the word Arab is beggar. Check it out it’s in Merriam-Webster”

      • Shingo
        April 19, 2010, 3:00 am

        “You never support your claims with credible sources. When pressed for proof, you disappear.”

        Just like Witty does. Are we seeing a pattern with the basis on which Zionist talking points are based?

      • Citizen
        April 19, 2010, 6:54 am

        UNIX, please provide some support for your allegations. Also, please refrain from bigoted comments such as calling someone an “anti-semite” simply because they question some of your statements.

      • aparisian
        April 19, 2010, 9:29 am

        good point Shingo.

        Maybe Witty and UNIX come from the same Zionist school? I must say Witty is far more sophisticated still. Yonira and UNIX keep abusing the “anti-Semitic” label. Yonira called Shlomo sand an anti-semite LOL he is nuts.

      • Mooser
        April 19, 2010, 11:59 am

        Taxi, I report, I report.

        It would help if maybe somebody (like Phil) would explain where the “report abuse” button goes to.

        Does it go to the blog’s owners, the comment host, or both? Are reported comments judged by their offensiveness or the likelyhood of liability?
        In any case, I report ’em.

      • RoHa
        April 18, 2010, 10:58 pm

        Don’t confuse him with facts. Reality is irrelevant. He gets his knowledge froma higher source.

      • UNIX
        April 18, 2010, 11:01 pm

        RoHa, I appreciate the help.

        What we should focus on is enabling massive Jewish settlement of Ramallah and Jerusalem.

      • Chaos4700
        April 18, 2010, 11:16 pm

        Why do you hate Arabs, UNIX?

      • Avi
        April 18, 2010, 11:30 pm

        RoHa, I appreciate the help.

        What we should focus on is enabling massive Jewish settlement of Ramallah and Jerusalem.

        I support massive settlement of non-Palestinian Arabs in Brooklyn, Oakland, New Jersey, Brookline and Florida, especially in Boca Raton and Miami.

      • DICKERSON3870
        April 19, 2010, 7:33 am

        RE: “Don’t confuse him with facts. Reality is irrelevant. He gets his knowledge from a higher source.” – RoHa
        MY CONTRIBUTION: “Sticks and stones may break our bones, but facts will never sway us.” ~ Neocon Creed

      • aparisian
        April 19, 2010, 9:31 am

        UNIX hate brown goys because they are not as tall nor beautiful as the Germans. UNIX is a bug.

  2. Chaos4700
    April 18, 2010, 11:23 pm

    I’d wonder if it was racism, but upon relfection it’s merely a case of one person of Polish/German descent hating another person of Polish/German descent. ;)

    • Chaos4700
      April 18, 2010, 11:27 pm

      Never mind. I guess the comment I was responding to was so offensive it got removed pretty much right away.

  3. Keith
    April 19, 2010, 12:07 am

    WHAT’S CHANGED? Talk of peace while building “facts on the ground,” while destroying “facts on the ground.” Liars with a single minded goal. Over 100 years and counting.

  4. Taxi
    April 19, 2010, 12:17 am


    I don’t think the word ‘absurdity’ in your headline is apt.

    The word ‘lunacy’ is more of a bullseye.

  5. Eva Smagacz
    April 19, 2010, 12:53 am

    Americans are building “Museum of Tolerance” on the millenium ols cementary in Jerusalem.


    • VR
      April 19, 2010, 1:12 am

      Yes Eva, and what they cannot do on tribal land (recently) they try to do abroad. It is this old split between domestic and foreign policy, as if the two never meet and one cannot affect the other – complete nonsense. However, you must understand that everyone involved in this disgusting process is “special,” and the special can do anything they want – and still keep their charitable status, with tax exemption.

    • Chu
      April 19, 2010, 8:16 am

      Barbaric and immoral. Historians will look back into this new millenium and see why the great American empire was on it’s way out.
      Weisenthal should be spending it’s construction budget on a project in the US, but instead they send the capitol to illegally occupy another people. For the Palestinians, it’s humiliating to take this standing up, or any sane group of people. Can you imagine if the Paul Revere cemetery in Boston was destroyed by a foreign power?

      Let’s say the British were destroying a centuries old Celtic cemetery to make way for a new shopping mall, do you think this may be an important story in the mainstream television news in the US? I would definitely say so…

      • Cliff
        April 19, 2010, 8:22 am

        Fear. Internalization of Jewish suffering, not for universality but for the sake of identity politics.

        Scum like Richard Witty, who place the life of a Jew above all others. Who straw man international law as ‘political correctness’ – these polite fascists erode democracy. Look at who Witty’s allies are: the Nazi settler UNIX/BSD, the village idiot yonira, the cowardly IDF soldier eee who wants Palestinians to be defenseless so he can murder them at a ratio greater than 100 to 1, and even WJ – who will say that an IDF soldier was justified in sniping a Palestinian 10 year old because, said Palestinian child stepped on the poor IDF soldier’s shoes.

        Zionism, Jewish supremacy, imperialism, etc. etc. IDENTITY POLITICS – regurgitating these labels like ‘Jew hater’ and the like. Framing criticism in terms of ‘antisemitism’ or talking about ‘balance’ when you talk about Zionist crimes.

        It’s all corrupt. These people are Stalinists. Hive-minded and will justify anything to perpetuate their cult.

      • Chu
        April 19, 2010, 9:35 am

        I have to agree with you on Witty. The way he avoids directly saying he is for this desecration is weak at best, and a disgusting position to hold.
        But Cliff, we should feel sorrow for poor Israel. The Jewish people have had such a tough run for 2000 years, it’s only fair to destroy the towns and villages of people who just didn’t belong in the scope of Jewish History. I mean, good lord, it’s in the bible, so it must be so.

      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 12:23 pm

        you are a joke cliff. why are you so angry? how is med school?

      • Cliff
        April 19, 2010, 12:55 pm

        Anyone who knows the truth, and not the MSM-bullshit about that ‘shitty Levantine country’ should be angry.

        I’m a joke – why? None of my descriptions are inaccurate. You’re an idiotic sycophant – sucking up to the latest troll, rehashing tired/stale hasbara.

        I’m on one week Spring break. Med school is fine. How are you, sunshine?

        It’s funny, the other day I was talking to my Aunt about why our country and press is so one-sided about Israel-Palestine. I’ve mentioned this before – but she replied ‘because of the Jewish lobbies’. My Aunt is an OBGYN, well-established, own practice, etc. etc.

        Even she ‘gets it’. I had to spoon-feed this stuff to my cousin, who bought into the whole – ‘Islamic extremism, global shariah’ bullshit.

        Thanks to idiots like you, who decontextualize the ME conflict into one of ‘Western democracy’ vs. barbarism.

      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 9:40 pm

        I am good thanks Cliff.

        These new Hasbara trolls are even getting on my nerves a little bit. I am one of them, but they are a little too hardcore for me. Other than Ruth, she is really whooping you guys lately. It’s good to see actually. Keep you guys on your toes. I think your movement has a better chance when you can debate with ppl instead of driving them away.

      • zamaaz
        April 19, 2010, 11:56 pm

        Cliff, this is a very poignant and the best so far tribute to these guys defending Israel and Jews…but can we tone down and refocus our response on arguments and views purely and not personal biases?

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 12:26 am

        Thank you for you blunt but precise recognition. But is seems you run out of argument!…Seek for much solid position. Rationalities that ‘holds water’ one that is anchored on realistic pragmatism….presentable to the reasoning of people of profound maturity….

  6. Richard Witty
    April 19, 2010, 12:54 am

    It will open people’s eyes on the absurdity of the attempt to erase Islam from Jerusalem, and the absurdity of attempting to erase the history of Judaism from many many locales in the world.

    And, also the absurdity of taking up so much land with untouchable graveyards.

    Anyone driven through the portion of Queens and Brooklyn that is cemetery land?

    Volcanos don’t honor cemeteries. Floods don’t. Glaciars don’t.

    • James Bradley
      April 19, 2010, 1:01 am

      And, also the absurdity of taking up so much land with untouchable graveyards.

      Anyone driven through the portion of Queens and Brooklyn that is cemetery land?

      Volcanos don’t honor cemeteries. Floods don’t. Glaciars don’t.

      Seriously pick one stance and stick with it.

      And is this seriously your argument?

      Also don’t forget that nearly half the population under Israeli jurisdiction is Muslim, and I highly doubt they would take kindly to watching their history be erased by a bunch of Americans.

      Lets also not forget the irony of a “Museum of Tolerance” being built on one of the oldest cemeteries.

      Its almost Orwellian in its surreality.

    • VR
      April 19, 2010, 1:07 am

      “Volcanos don’t honor cemeteries. Floods don’t. Glaciars don’t. ”

      Acts of nature are not equivalent to rational human beings, with the capacity of decision. The other points are just as ridiculous – these are people with hundreds of years of residence, who the hell are you to tell them where to put their cemeteries? You can decry the idea of wiping Palestinians (which are not just “Islam”) from Jerusalem, but the main point is what you decry – big and too many cemeteries, what arrogant bullshit!

      • Richard Witty
        April 19, 2010, 5:15 am

        Its a comment on absurdity and vanity.

        Every community that I’m aware has shrines to the dead. We pass. Our teaching is forgotten (except through the intimacy of familial teaching). All of our intellectual achievements pass (especially lost in the world of commercialism in which culture just dissolves).

        Graves are a way of marking that familial memory. Yes, our ancestor actually did live.

        If the graves are actually honored and revered, then make a big deal out of it. If they are just a means to stimulate being pissed off, then let it go.

      • Citizen
        April 19, 2010, 7:51 am

        So Witty, do you think the graves under the proposed Museum Of Tolerance land are “actually honored and revered”? You didn’t say.

      • Chu
        April 19, 2010, 7:56 am

        This story is symbolic of Israeli diaspora aiding the destruction of sacred property to obtain more of Jerusalem. How ironic it is to build a museum of tolerance on top of a historic graveyard…

        Imagine this graveyard as Jewish, would there be a problem in it’s destruction? let’s say it makes way for a Muslim center of technology.

        Also, I missed your analogy about the cemetery land in Queens. Can you clarify? [Mount Zion cemetery is right below the BQE.]

      • Citizen
        April 19, 2010, 8:23 am

        For readers here who want to see the pros and cons of using US tax-exempt dollars to enlarge the Wiesenthal Musem of Tolerance project by extending the California franchise to Mamilla:
        link to imemc.org

        Note that while the mission statement speaks in terms of furthering general humanitarian tolerance for all, the only specifics exclusively pertain to the Shoah, and part of the mission is to “stand by Israel,” which is code for supporting Israel right or wrong.

        It’s kinda like reading the Zionist’s state’s declaration of Independence in that respect.

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 12:33 am

        Let us not forget this matter is under the authority of the State of Israel, nobody else! In any government the people may have their individual concerns, and they may have the best of arguments, but in finality, regarding matters of use of land this is domain of the state. That is why there is this principle of land titles, and expropriations…

    • Cliff
      April 19, 2010, 8:22 am

      Stop equivocating, Dick, no one is buying what you’re selling.

      • Richard Witty
        April 19, 2010, 3:37 pm

        I don’t know how important the grave is.

        If its actually important to Rashid Khalidi, I would value his opinion.

        The point about graves is still, and contrary to Jewish principles.

        Its close to home. My aunt, through whom I know Phil, decided to be cremated, and the only memorial event that the family had was a large formal event (that Phil spoke at). My cousins had a very private ceremony, no cousins even to disperse her ashes. I didn’t get a chance to mourn, or now to remember. My memories are real, but I get the significance of the marker, say for my children that were very young when my aunt died.

        Jews revere the caves of machpelah in Hebron and Rachel’s Tomb outside of Nablus, and the tombs of Safed mystics. There is an alienation for those for whom that access is important, a being cut off from one’s home.

        I expect that is the import of the grave in question.

        I hope it is not an exageration, like some of my friends that are Native Americans that held up the construction of a commercial building when bones were discovered, at which point someone said that it was a possible ancient burial ground. (No one knew whose bones, or the circumstances, and it was the third construction project on the physical site.)

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 3:49 pm

        Really? Then explain eee’s accusatory tone farther down the thread, if you don’t mind. I know you didn’t write it, but you agree with him often enough and even pick up his lingo when it suits you, so I dare say you could give us some insight, considering.

        I hope it is not an exageration, like some of my friends that are Native Americans that held up the construction of a commercial building when bones were discovered, at which point someone said that it was a possible ancient burial ground.

        My what a sensitive advocate you are for Native American rights and sanctity, Witty.

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 12:17 am

        What is important in the issue over cemeteries is not the cemetery site. It only a piece of land – its the people buried therein! If the government wants to build a monument to give honor in one way or another- they can do it. Like other cities of governments. They simply help the families claim and remove the bones and transfer it somewhere of their preference. Those unidentified remains were transferred to a common commemorative graveyard. Then they government proceed to the plan. So whats the problem?

  7. thankgodimatheist
    April 19, 2010, 5:41 am

    link to haaretz.com Barak : Israel needs to recognize the occupation must end
    Defense Minister Ehud Barak voiced concern Monday over Israel’s deep rift with the United States over its settlement policy, saying Israel needs to recognize that “the occupation must end.”

    “The alienation that is developing with the United States is not good for Israel,” Barak said during a Memorial Day radio interview. “We have strong ties with the United States, a bond, long-term friendship and strategic partnership. We receive three billion dollars from them each year; we get the best planes in the world from them.”

    For all these reasons we must act to change things,” Barak said, while voicing doubt that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu would soon enjoy the same warm ties with the White House as his predecessors did when President George W. Bush was in office.
    link to haaretz.com

    • thankgodimatheist
      April 19, 2010, 5:46 am

      Akiva Eldar: Israel uses Independence Day to turn its back on the Arab peace plan
      In its 62nd year of independence, as it has every year since March 2002, Israel is taking advantage of its independence to turn its back on the Arab Peace Initiative. This year, too, it is ignoring a plan that offers it normalization in return for a withdrawal from the occupied territories and a just and agreed resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194.
      link to haaretz.com

    • Citizen
      April 19, 2010, 7:56 am

      Here, let’s save UNIX et al some trouble:
      Israel should cut off ties with the USA, and the USA should acknowledge
      this decision by letting Pollard fly away to Israel. Israel should develop a replacement special relation ship with China. After all, US aid to Israel is peanuts anyway.

    • zamaaz
      April 20, 2010, 12:39 am

      Diplomatically (or publicly) it ‘appears’ negative to relationship with Israel, but deep personally among these key personalities, it builds among them self-respect to the headlong pursuit of achieving the general aspirations of the Jewish people as a nation…

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 12:47 am

        It just like the situation in any court of justice, all the legitative protagonists fiercely attack the arguments of their opponents and defend their case, but deep in the hearts among these lawyers lay deep respect among them, to the strength of will of each of them lawyers to fight for their respective clients.

  8. hophmi
    April 19, 2010, 5:51 am

    Yeah, except for one thing. This cemetery was never a big deal until the Jews started building something on it, and even then it wasn’t a very big deal until Islamic leader decided to make a big deal out of it for world media.

    Sorry, but you guys are being massive tools here, and you are being played for fools by some of the Muslim leaders who want to score political points in the fight over Jerusalem.

    The spot where they’d like to build the museum is – a parking lot. It is NEXT TO the cemetery. But the museum brought the media, and the media brought an opportunity to protest.

    In 1945, there were plans by the Muslims to build a commercial center on top of the cemetery. So the idea that the place has always been sacred to Muslims and thus must be preserved at all costs is a modern fiction.

    link to en.wikipedia.org

    • yonira
      April 20, 2010, 12:22 am

      How long will we let them cry wolf. Another fabrication!

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 20, 2010, 4:39 am

        You don’t fall for such an evident fabrication do you yonira? I mean a “commercial center” in 1945? Are you kidding me? Maybe in the US but certainly not in Palestine my friend! We KNOW better.
        Besides, did you read the wiki entry? It mentions an article from 1954 but it’s no where to be read or seen!! Strange isn’t it?

    • zamaaz
      April 20, 2010, 12:56 am

      [In 1945, there were plans by the Muslims to build a commercial center on top of the cemetery. So the idea that the place has always been sacred to Muslims and thus must be preserved at all costs is a modern fiction.]

      Yes, what actually we are confronting here is not actually the muslims as persons, but the mindset of muslim leadership to pursue, pick up, or raise any issue under the sun simply to oppose against, as ‘Great Adversary’, raise intrigue and embarrass the Jewish government and the people…

    • thankgodimatheist
      April 20, 2010, 4:36 am

      What a strange load of horseshit! I read this wiki article which talks about an “article” but no article is to be seen or read! I clicked on the blog where it refers to it being published and guess what? Again no where to be seen? Where is it possible to read this article. Wiki says it was published in the Palestine Post(now Jerusalem Post) yet strangely enough The JP does not publish it. Why? Additionally, the idea of building a “commercial center” in 1945 when such things were unthinkable at the time is a give away. This looks like yet another fabrication by the tireless and unscrupulous zionist PR hacks!
      Better back it much better that! Show me the alleged published article!

  9. Walid
    April 19, 2010, 7:13 am

    Richard Witty, yes the cemetery story is being blown out of proportion and it’s diverting attention away from the more pressing problem of the systematic wiping out of the Palestinian presence from Jerusalem. It would be futile to save the cemetery while failing to stop the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Jerusalem. Destroying cemeteries is not new for Israel, the first being at Deir Yassin in 48. There had to be cemeteries in almost every one of the over 400 villages dynamited or bulldozed for the building of Jewish towns on several of them such as Qiryat Yam on the ruins of Arab Ghawarina, Ben-Ami on those of Umm al-Farraj or the shameful Canada Village built with tax-exempt Jewish money from Montreal and Toronto on the ruins of Nuba, Yalu and Imwas. So I agree with you on this but not for the same reason that you are using. I can imagine how you would react to someone proposing to bulldoze the main Jewish cemetary in Beirut to put up a museum. But fear not, plans are almost ready to restore that cemetary to coincide with the Magen Avraham Synagogue renovations that are currently underway. If you look carefully, you’d see bridges being built to reach out to Jews in various Arab countries while Jews in Israel are busy destroying whatever little is left of Palestinian-Arab vestiges there. It should tell you something.

    • potsherd
      April 19, 2010, 7:32 am

      I think Ali Gharib makes a good point in the title to this piece. What stands out in the Mamilla case is the absurdity, the perverseness of it. Even people who can’t work up outrage over human suffering can see that this project just doesn’t make sense.

    • zamaaz
      April 20, 2010, 1:10 am

      This developments are tragic indeed, but the word ‘tragic’ is never suffice to satisfy the sorrows and pains of the affected community. But we must also remember that these are the outcome of wrong political path taken by Palestinian leadership which their own people have to carry the brunt….The people took the risks and thus they have the consequences…

    • wondering jew
      April 20, 2010, 1:19 am

      Walid- There are 100 Jews left in Beirut. The synagogue is being renovated as a public relations ploy. If you’d look carefully you’d see that the bridges being built elsewhere were public relation ploys as well.

      This quote below and the information that I have is from the Jewish virtual library. If you have alternate information, please provide it.

      “In the mid-50’s, approximately 7,000 Jews lived in Beirut. As Jews in an Arab country, however, their position was never secure, and the majority left in 1967.

      Fighting in the 1975-76 Muslim-Christian civil war swirled around the Jewish Quarter in Beirut, damaging many Jewish homes, businesses and synagogues. Most of the remaining 1,800 Lebanese Jews emigrated in 1976, fearing the growing Syrian presence in Lebanon would curtail their freedom. Most Jews went to Europe (particularly France), the United States and Canada.

      In the mid-1980’s, Hizballah kidnapped several prominent Jews from Beirut — most were leaders of what remained of the country’s tiny Jewish community. Four of the Jews were later found murdered.

      Nearly all of the remaining Jews are in Beirut, where there is a committee that represents the community. Because of the current political situation, Jews are unable to openly practice Judaism. In 2004, only 1 out of 5,000 Lebanese Jewish citizens registered to vote participated in the municipal elections. Virtually all of those registered have died or fled the country. The lone Jewish voter said that most of the community consists of old women.

  10. pabelmont
    April 19, 2010, 7:16 am

    My sense is that there is a sudden accelleration of really awful stuff going on RIGHT NOW. Mamilla, stealling water pumps from a Palestinian farmer (West Bank), threatening deportation of jail to 10,000 people with wrong paper-work.

    Israel always overplays its hand, always overreaches (like the Republicans here) but this is getting WAY out of hand. It’s as if to say: “Because you — USA — might punish me for a small crime but would never punish me for a really big crime, I’d better increase the tempo and do a really big crime.”

    • Chu
      April 19, 2010, 8:37 am

      …this sudden acceleration may be pushing for a violent uprising. If historic and sacred sites were being destroyed in my country, I would be working with others to take down this power with great violence and force. Although this action against the invader would only be an excuse to expand their illegal occupation. It’s a real pickle…

      But it’s up to the US to stop whitewashing criminal behavior. I wonder if we could have a comment from Pelosi on this cemetery desecration? I would think this could be a great political issue, if there was some backbone in this decaying system of corruption.

      Cemetery desecration is an issue to the majority of the US population is against. Where is the left in Israel? The dream of Israel has become a nightmare. It’s like fascism crushed the opposition.

      link to commondreams.org
      Plan to Build ‘Tolerance’ Museum Near Muslim Cemetery Draws Fire

  11. thankgodimatheist
    April 19, 2010, 7:36 am

    Where’s Witty?
    Obama hints that Two-State Solution may be Impossible
    Juan Cole
    link to juancole.com problem Obama faces is that the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, a coordinating body for the Israel lobbies, has successfully mobilized both houses of Congress against him with regard to putting further pressure on far rightwing Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to stop building settlements. Congress decides on how much money to give Israel annually, and how many weapons to sell it. Obama cannot effectively threaten Netanyahu with a reduction in the billions of dollars a year in aid, trade privileges, loan guarantees, and military equipment sent to Israel by the US. Those goods are in the gift of Congress, and Congress typically yields to AIPAC and its colleagues. As John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt have demonstrated in The Israel Lobby, these lobbies cultivate congressmen and senators from the beginning of their careers. The Christian Zionists, who form a significant movement within US evangelicalism, probably number some 10 million, and it is not hard to get them to write their senator on behalf of Israeli expansionism. Pro-Israel organizations and individuals are disproportionately politically active and likely to give to political campaigns.
    link to juancole.com

    • zamaaz
      April 20, 2010, 1:17 am

      I told you before, the true Christians (Gentiles) are ‘natural’ Zionist by faith, very much strongly zionist than any half-cooked Jew, and that appeal would not happen… However, there are approaches and arguments regarding Israel laid in the Bible acceptable to Christians…but it is for every interested party to seek…

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 1:53 am

        I will tell everyone here straight! As long as you use the word ‘Occupation’ against the Jews… No, not a single one out of tens, hundreds, or hundred of millions of true Christians all over the world, will ever give credence to that cause! This ‘position’ remains indefinitely…

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 20, 2010, 4:28 am

        Are you saying that Christian Palestinians (20% of the population) don’t have the right to Palestine either? Enlighten me moron!

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 9:14 am

        No I do not ignore the plight of the Christian Palestinians… But they should have separated their cause from violent path of Hamaz… I do not know why they could not have been warned;
        [Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. (Matthew 15:14)]
        And besides there are so many paths in the Bible that leads to Peaceful resolution. I hope sooner they will find that.

      • Chaos4700
        April 20, 2010, 9:16 am

        No I do not ignore the plight of the Christian Palestinians… But they should have separated their cause from violent path of Hamaz…

        See, this will always be one of the big downfalls of Christianity. Some Christians will always find a reason to burn other Christians at the stake.

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 20, 2010, 9:27 am

        I hope you don’t mind me standing behind you Chaos. I don’t want this THING called zamass to be talking to me! I don’t understand what he says..

    • zamaaz
      April 20, 2010, 1:25 am

      As I have mentioned before Pro-Israel Lobby in foreign countries had been existing more than 2500 years since the days of Daniel (Babylonian government) 6th century BC, then Nehemiah then Ezra (Persian government), so on. The lobby in the US is not a new thing…

  12. Walid
    April 19, 2010, 7:39 am

    TGIA, the Arab Peace Plan is intended to make the Arabs’ 62-year old migraine go away and not necessarily to help the Palestinians, so it’s not a wow proposal. It has been watered down already by conceding that Israel would not return fully to the 67 line and that there would be some swap or other for those large cross-border settlements that aren’t going anywhere. The 2002 initial proposal was already a fire-sale deal for Israel because it recognized that not all Palestinians would return, that those who would are to do so over a period of several years and that the actual number of returnees will have to be mutually agreed to by the parties; in other words, Israel could go on refusing to consider the numbers until the last of the ’48 Palestinians has died away which is about 10 years away at most based on current life expectancy. Israel has been playing a stalling game all these years with that objective in mind and the Arabs compounded the problem by dampening the Palestinians’ nationalistic drive.

    • Julian
      April 19, 2010, 7:49 am

      Where was the Palestinians’ nationalistic drive when the land was controlled by Egypt and Jordan?

      • Shingo
        April 19, 2010, 7:58 am

        “Where was the Palestinians’ nationalistic drive when the land was controlled by Egypt and Jordan?”

        They had homes stolen, and were enthnically cleansed under Egypt and Jordan?

      • Citizen
        April 19, 2010, 8:03 am

        So when did Egypt and Jordan bomb Gaza with white phosporous? How many Palestinian villages did Egypt and Jordan wipe out and rename over decades? And it it not a characteristic that tribal solidarity increases when there is a constant common oppressor?

      • Citizen
        April 19, 2010, 8:09 am

        There are even those who made or make a reasonable case, e.g., Zionist founders and advocates of the proposition of “silent holocaust”, that anti-semitism is needed to assure Jewish continuity.
        To such people any means justifies the end of retaining nationhood.

      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 9:45 pm

        You should study more about the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank by Egypt and Jordan. From a day to day aspect the occupation under their Arab brothers was much more brutal and suffocating. Higher education was outlawed until Israel took over the WB and Gaza, which was the birthplace of the resistance.

      • James Bradley
        April 19, 2010, 9:51 pm

        That’s simply not true Yonira. The Egyptian and Jordanian occupation while not good for the Palestinians was nothing compared to the terror that is the Israeli occupation.

        Furthermore, even “if” the Egyptian or Jordanian occupation was worse, it doesn’t give Israel the right to subject the Palestinian population under its control to a brutal military occupation, a suffocating siege, or apartheid.

      • yonira
        April 20, 2010, 12:28 am

        No it doesn’t James, the occupation is horrible any occupation is horrible.

        Remember one of the occupied was responsible for the assassination of King Abdullah I, I am sure things weren’t pretty after that.

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 20, 2010, 4:25 am

        From a day to day aspect the occupation under their Arab brothers was much more brutal and suffocating. Higher education was outlawed until Israel took over the WB and Gaza, which was the birthplace of the resistance.
        Oh dear dear! This is some despicable fabrication. Anything to back it up, yonira?

      • Shmuel
        April 20, 2010, 4:32 am

        From the Birzeit University website:

        1953: Birzeit offers first-year university-level courses in arts and science

        1961: Birzeit College offers second-year university-level courses in arts and science; grants first associate degrees the following year.

      • Shmuel
        April 20, 2010, 4:34 am

        From the website of An-Najah National University:

        An-Najah National University was established as An-Najah Nabulsi School in 1918. In 1941 it became An-Najah College, and by 1963 it was functioning as a two-year community college.

      • tree
        April 20, 2010, 5:08 am


        I don’t think yonira knows enough about the West Bank to realize that the info you posted about Birzeit and An-Najah just proved that that his “source” for study just told him a big fat whopper. What was your source, yonira, for the lie that “higher education was outlawed until Israel took over the West Bank and Gaza”?

      • Shmuel
        April 20, 2010, 5:28 am


        Mostly, I think his Hasbara handbook is out of date. The “enlightened occupation” (kibbush na’or) argument went out of vogue some time in the early 90s.

      • Richard Witty
        April 20, 2010, 5:36 am

        My understanding is that it was reluctantly but actually attempted.

        MANY Palestinians and Israelis speak of the “good old days” when Palestinians could travel freely in the West Bank and relatively freely in Israel, and vice-versa.

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 19, 2010, 8:28 am

        Where was the Palestinians’ nationalistic drive when the land was controlled by Egypt and Jordan?
        Oh, bother! This is primitive stuff! UNIX quality stamped all over it. Sir, you too ARE an idiot! Lobotomy material!
        Where are the Jordanian/Egyptian settlements? Where was the ethnic cleansing, the deportation. Where did the Egyptians or the Jordanian byuilt apartheid walls?
        Back up your assertions or STFU..

    • thankgodimatheist
      April 19, 2010, 8:22 am

      TGIA, the Arab Peace Plan is intended to make the Arabs’ 62-year old migraine go away and not necessarily to help the Palestinians, so it’s not a wow proposal.
      I don’t disagree with your analysis..But the plan is there with the unique virtue of showing in broad light that Israel is the rejectionist here not the other way around. 8 years this plan has been on the table and Israel didn’t bother responding either way..For the neutral observer this is hard to explain..

    • zamaaz
      April 20, 2010, 1:43 am

      Yes, Walid, Yes……

      I may appear before you ‘merciless’ in defense of this ‘Jewish Nation’, but donot say your argument does not reach me…

  13. Julian
    April 19, 2010, 7:47 am

    Here you go. There are literally thousands of links about Arab destruction of Synagogues and cemeteries.
    link to nytimes.com
    In May 1948, shortly after the Old City fell into the hands of Jordanian forces which along with other Arab armies had attacked the newly independent Israel, Hurva was one of 29 synagogues destroyed.
    link to cnsnews.com

    After 1948, Jordan was able to take control of all the holy places inside the old walled city, and contrary to the terms of the agreement, Israelis were denied access to Jewish holy sites, many of which were desecrated.
    link to en.wikipedia.org

    Actually destruction by Muslims of other religions houses of worship and holy sites is pretty typical.

  14. eee
    April 19, 2010, 9:02 am

    When it is done in America it is not a problem:
    link to phillyarchaeology.org

    But if something can be used to bludgeon Israel, why not use it?

    I know from first hand experience that the Jordanians violated Jewish graves. My grandfather brought his aged mother from Europe before WWII and she died within a year. She was buried in the Mt. Olives Jewish cemetery. In 1967, my grandfather could not find her grave even though he knew the exact location. The whole Jewish cemetery in Mt. Olives was just rubble.

    I am not arguing that Israel should treated Muslim cemeteries like Jordanians treated Jewish one. My argument is simple. The living have precedent over the dead. Everywhere in the world such problems occur and are solved pretty much as they are solved in Israel.

    • Chaos4700
      April 19, 2010, 9:06 am

      In 1967, my grandfather could not find her grave even though he knew the exact location. The whole Jewish cemetery in Mt. Olives was just rubble.

      Because the graveyard couldn’t possibly have been damaged by Israeli military action as they invaded East Jerusalem, huh?

      Did that even occur to you?

      • eee
        April 19, 2010, 9:12 am

        No, it didn’t occur to me because no battle was fought on Mt. Olives.
        How do you explain the fact that none of the churches on the mount were damaged during the war?
        Care to show that indeed a battle was fought there?
        Maybe you want to try another of your lame excuses?

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 9:19 am

        Israel has an established precedent of shelling locations even if there are no military personnel to be had there, and your military has an established doctrine of taking elevated ground so that you have a platform from which to fire artillery strikes.

        So why didn’t the vicious marauding Muslims raze the churches as well? Hmm? You guys keep saying how Islam is a threat to the rest of the world. Doesn’t sound like the case.

        How old was this graveyard, in actuality, for that matter? Your Polish grandfather buried her in an exclusive Jewish graveyard? And what was that graveyard doing on Mt. Olives? Was there an established Jewish graveyard up there that had native Palestinian Jews in it at all?

        And why should we believe your being truthful at all? We know Israelis have lied about what went on in East Jerusalem under Jordanian rule — we have non-Israeli Jews who can tell us from their visits under Jordanian occupation. How do we even know there was even a graveyard up there at all? Got any evidence? Documentation? Anything?

      • Chu
        April 19, 2010, 9:41 am

        Remember, this is the guy with the heavy Israeli accent! What a crock…

    • Chaos4700
      April 19, 2010, 9:10 am

      Anyway, how does the American government allowing an American graveyard be relocated even compare to a colonizing Israeli government moving a native Palestinian graveyard that has existed for centuries? Not that I think that its right, mind you, but a better example would have been the US government razing a Native American graveyard.

      Couldn’t find a contemporary example of that, could you, eee?

      • eee
        April 19, 2010, 9:19 am

        Yeah right, one cannot compare the US to Israel. Even when Israel acts exactly like the US, Israel is wrong and the US is right. As long as you can bludgeon Israel, everything is fair.

        By the way it seems many Native American burial grounds have been developed in the US:
        link to ibsgwatch.imagedjinn.com

        But of course, you will explain to me that there is a huge difference.

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 9:24 am

        I continue to find it amazing that your argument isn’t “Israel isn’t bulldozing Muslim graveyards,” or “It’s wrong to bulldoze graveyards,” but “Well YOU all did it so we’re going to raze graveyards too, fuckers!”

        I continue to be amused that in order to find links in American history to justify present day Israeli policy, you have to go back to Civil War era examples. That list you just posted? Most of the examples document crimes, not government sanction actions.

      • eee
        April 19, 2010, 9:40 am

        No, my argument is simple. Israel is acting according to norms acceptable all over the world. Israel has “bulldozed” Muslim, Jewish and Christian graves on different occasions as it was deemed that the needs of the living require it. But of course, though all countries do this, you bludgeon Israel and give your own country a free pass.

        Did Phil when talking to his friend tell him about the parking lot being built in his own backyard on a graveyard? Of course not. Talk about propaganda. What a distorted one sided view.

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 9:41 am

        Did that graveyard on Mt. Olives even really exist? Tell us more about it.

      • aparisian
        April 19, 2010, 9:43 am

        Exactly Chaos4700.

        eee, btw you should read the AIPAC advices for Hasbararists. This is what they say:

        “DON’T mention that Israel is being singled out (don’t mention crimes committed by other countries). Don’t suggest divesting from other countries. It is a weak argument and implies that Israel has committed war crimes.”

      • eee
        April 19, 2010, 9:47 am

        How many times do I have to explain that I am not using the “two rights make a wrong” argument? I am making a positive argument that what Israel is doing regarding the museum is the norm worldwide and it is the RIGHT thing to do. I am not justifying a wrong based on the fact others do it.

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 9:51 am

        Here you are, American Jews! Israeli Jews think that razing cemeteries that have existed for hundreds of years is the right thing to do.

        I guess all you liberal Jews who stood up against odds and advocated for Native American rights? Israeli Jews say you were wrong to do that.

        Does Israel really represent the Jewish faith? Does it? Ask yourselves that.

      • eee
        April 19, 2010, 9:57 am

        Hey my fellow American Jews, now according to the BDS movement Elie Wiesel is a criminal. Don’t believe that this not fundamentally a anti-Jewish movement.

      • sherbrsi
        April 19, 2010, 10:11 am

        eee not only are you racist but also severely logically challenged.

        Read your own statement:

        I am not justifying a wrong based on the fact others do it.

        Israel is doing regarding the museum is the norm worldwide and it is the RIGHT thing to do.

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 10:15 am

        Do you really think being a Holocaust survivor gives you carte blanche immunity against criminal prosecution, eee? Do you really seek to exploit the Holocaust in that fashion such that the victims of the Holocaust can commit crimes and atrocities of their own and not get treated as equal under the law?

      • Chu
        April 19, 2010, 11:44 am

        eee “As long as you can bludgeon Israel, everything is fair.”

        Can you tone it down? This is exploiting victim hood for self-interest. It’s a stale sideshow that’s been festering for weeks with you.
        If this was a Jewish Cemetery you would be crying antisemitism.
        The need to always say the US is guilty of the same crime, is also an ineffective tactic. Were not the same.

      • Mooser
        April 19, 2010, 11:55 am

        “eee” you are right, Americans are fundementally anti-Semitic. In fact, they would like to exclude the Jews from America right now, today! Only problem is, our court system couldn’t handle all the divorces. Pretty tricky, those Gentiles, huh, “eee” (that does not sound like a Jewish name to me)? I mean, you know, marrying their sons and daughters to us, just to show how much they hate us!

        You see, “eee” maybe Jews in Israel live in a hell of self-created paranoia, but Jews in America don’t.

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 2:11 am

        [You see, “eee” maybe Jews in Israel live in a hell of self-created paranoia, but Jews in America don’t. ]
        Jews in the US may have entirely different upbringing…Take note that US is not a Jewish state…consider the social environment that the Jewish children were brought up there…activism, liberalism, atheism, agnosticism, satanism, etc… That is a solid recipe for a ‘half-cooked’, ‘salad’ or ‘rare’ Jewry! That is why the spiritual and cultural gap between these Jewish communities and generations! This is even reflected in this webpage now!

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 9:26 am

        Mooser, I think if all the Americans with Jewish blood (at all percentage level based on DNA determination) including families are expelled out of the US and allowed to carry all their properties to Israel, with the full US guarantee in Dollars plus interest or penalty charges on default…, that could be very exciting and interesting scenario…They, the Jews could still reclaim and own the USA…

    • thankgodimatheist
      April 19, 2010, 9:15 am

      Yes eee. You said it many times before. You need to modernise. We understand. Your Euro/American uncles need room, need parking space!! Let’s do away with worthless monuments and lousy archaeology and cumbrous cemetries especially when all pertain to the backward, unwashed and defeated “Arab”.

      • eee
        April 19, 2010, 9:41 am

        How many aboriginal sites has your illegal government bulldozed? Are you an Aborigine? If not, what are you doing in Australia? Get out you colonialist!

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 9:48 am

        I find it uproariously amusing that the only tactic at your disposal is to compare Israel to the Australia of a hundred or so years ago. Although equating Israel to a British penal colony full of criminals impinging on the native population is… poetic, after a fact.

      • eee
        April 19, 2010, 9:51 am

        Australia of a hundred years ago? Why, have the European Colonialists left? Has Australia been returned to its native people? Has there been “justice” there? Or, do you accept facts on the ground in Australia but not in Israel/Palestine?

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 9:54 am

        eee, what happened in Australia happened before the end of WW2 and before the treaty arrangments that were designed to prevent things like that from happening again.

        You really want to go back to the age of the world wars, don’t you, eee? You want to go back to the days when might makes right — what, in spite of the fact that your ancestors were being ground under the wheel?

        You are an insult to Holocaust survivors worldwide, eee, with your cavalier attitude toward violating human rights.

      • eee
        April 19, 2010, 10:02 am

        What happened in Australia can still be fixed. The European settlers should all return to Europe and the land should be returned to the Aborigines. Who cares when laws were enacted? Justice is justice! If the right of return is feasible, then sending back 20 million Australians to under populated Europe is no big deal.

        I still do not understand why you accept facts on the ground in Australia, Canada, US, Finland etc. etc. but insist on not taking them into account in Israel. Irrational Israel hatred anyone?

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 10:13 am

        Well, at least we have you confessing that Israel is basically a barbaric, pre-modern country.

      • Mooser
        April 19, 2010, 10:14 am

        “Irrational Israel hatred anyone?”

        So frickin what? Where did you get the idea that they send you to jail for not liking Israel? Hell, you’re the one who is always complaining about anti-Semitism.

        It gets hard to believe in all this persecution of Jews when the first thing Zionists do is call for authorities to punish anyone who takes the wrong emotional stance on Israel.

        And I’ll tell you again: People are allowed to dislike any state they please, even irrationally. Even if it’s filled with Jews.

        Or are you expecting the Zionism Police to swoop down and close this blog? Yup, we can see how scarred you are by anti-Semitism.

      • eee
        April 19, 2010, 10:19 am

        “Well, at least we have you confessing that Israel is basically a barbaric, pre-modern country.”

        Not at all, Israel is a modern state like Australia, US and Canada.
        It certainly has flaws and needs improvement, but which state doesn’t? Success is relative. I look at what Israel has accomplished in the last 62 years and it is nothing short of a miracle when you compare us to any of our neighbors in our rough part of the world.

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 10:23 am

        There’s nothing modern about Israel’s attitude toward its native population. Both the US and Australia have made reparations and conciliatory agreements toward their native populations — not nearly enough, mind you, but they were doing so even before international treaties made colonialist behavior illegal.

        Israel, meanwhile, continues to perpetrate its own Trail of Tears that is six decades long and running.

      • eee
        April 19, 2010, 10:44 am

        Once Australia is returned to the Aborigines, and the US to native Americans, come talk to me about the right of return. Until then, you are nothing but a hypocrite.

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 10:49 am

        So let me get this straight — if my grandfather stole a car, that makes it impossible for me to confront you when I see you stealing someone else’s car?

      • eee
        April 19, 2010, 11:04 am

        No, if your grandfather stole a car, why do you not return it instead of claiming my grandfather stole a car and only asking me to return it? Why are you not leading by example? Return your grandfather’s car and then come preach to me. Otherwise, you are just a hypocrite.

      • eljay
        April 19, 2010, 2:16 pm

        >> … if your grandfather stole a car, why do you not return it instead of claiming my grandfather stole a car and only asking me to return it? Why are you not leading by example?

        Why are you stealing cars (and killing passengers) in the first place? Theres not much point to claiming moral superiority if you use the immorality of those around you to justify your immoral actions.

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 19, 2010, 9:03 pm

        How many aboriginal sites has your illegal government bulldozed?
        Yawn! One trick donkey!
        Australia was colonised more than 200 years ago, I was too young to remember anything.
        Ya hmar!
        The total population of Australia is 22 million. The Aboriginal population a mere half a million ( 517,200 ) representing about 2.5% of the population (22,000,000).
        The issues the Aboriginals are facing are multifaceted but, unlike the case with the Palestinians, the loss of land is not the most pressing . Actually a reverse cycle is taking place where once they were dispossessed of their lands, now they’re slowly getting it back. And remember Australia is 22 times the size of France. It’s hardly an issue of land..
        BTW, I’m glad that you do admit that Israel is a criminal, rogue state founded on THEFT and ongoing ethnic cleansing but you just do not like others, who are “hypocrites” to say it. Thank you for FRANKLY admitting your crimes!

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 19, 2010, 9:21 pm

        And I’d rather be a “hypocrite” than a criminal like yourself (a fact you did NOT DENY!)

      • RoHa
        April 19, 2010, 9:22 pm

        1. Aborigines can travel all over Australia, and reside in any part of Australia, in the same way as any other Australian citizen can.

        2. We are well aware of how badly the Aborigines were treated by the whites, and are making efforts at reconciliation and at improving the lot of the Aborigines. How good these efforts are is a matter of political debate in Australia.

      • Sumud
        April 19, 2010, 9:56 pm

        thankgodimatheist has already mentioned Australia was settled two centuries ago, 1788 in fact.

        So eee fvck you.

        You need to know Israel is not a modern country like Australia, it is a barbaric, inhumane and deeply racist country with a crumbling veneer of liberal democratic values. I mean the country, not the people, and especially not those working to bring about positive change.

        If there’s a comparison to be made it is to an Australia of ages past: an era of terra nullius (the empty land), of total domination over the indigenous people – because we had weapons and they did not, because we as Europeans, knew better – and they did not, an era of herded people – forced to relocate to reservations or at other time simply massacred, an era of “the problem of aborigines”, and of being unable to recognise that the problem was in fact within ourselves.

        Can you imagine Netanyahu in the Knesset offering an apology to the Palestinians?

        Apology to the Stolen Generations of Australia : Part 1 [of 3]
        link to youtube.com

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 19, 2010, 11:19 pm

        “Why, have the European Colonialists left?”
        No one is asking them to leave no one! I speak with aboriginals, my students on a daily basis.. Not once have I heard such an absurd claim! Just admit you’re a loser with a loser’s arguments..

        “Has Australia been returned to its native people?”
        The pizza is huge, the diners are few and everyone has enough to his stomach’s fill.

        “Has there been “justice” there”
        Unlike in Israel, an official sorry was pronounced and numerous measures were taken to heal and repair even if the harm is largely done. Unlike Israel there’s no ethnic cleansing, no apartheid, no land theft and no wanton killing. No trees are pulled, no water sources poisoned, no homes destroyed, no checkpoints, nothing of all this! And yeah, unlike in Israel, ALL citizens are equal in rights.

        “do you accept facts on the ground in Australia but not in Israel/Palestine?”
        Never heard any claims made in that direction so the point is moot!
        But don’t get me wrong! I’m glad you admit to all the above mentioned crimes though! Not many do.

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 2:19 am

        eee, wait! the Palestinians are not aborigines in Israel… Biblically speaking, they are ‘people of the land. The Jews are the displaced aborigines returning back…History is miraculously making a correction with Israel which Australia, Canada, and US can never recover in any manner…

      • sherbrsi
        April 20, 2010, 2:20 am

        Biblically speaking

        Stopped reading there.

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 20, 2010, 4:13 am

        Stopped reading there.
        Why? You don’t enjoy comedy?

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 20, 2010, 4:19 am

        the Palestinians are not aborigines in Israel… Biblically speaking, they are ‘people of the land. The Jews are the displaced aborigines returning back
        Before the Jews there were the the canaanites, dumbass!
        From wiki

        “Canaan predates the ancient Israelite territories described in the Bible, and describes a land with different, but overlapping bounds.[6] The classical Jewish view, as explained by Schweid, is that “Canaan” is the geographical name, but this is not a view that is universally subscribed to; the renaming as “Israel” after its occupation by the Israelites is derived only from the Bible, and marks the origin of the concept of a Holy Land.[7]
        link to en.wikipedia.org

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 20, 2010, 4:56 am

        Christian Palestinians, collectively, spit in your face..Christian Palestinians who are the original/aboriginal Palestinians see you as an enemy. Christian Palestinians think that you’re nothing but a sorry excuse for a biped.

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 20, 2010, 4:59 am

        My mum, who’s a Christian, would have loved to say a couple of words to you scum of the earth!

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 5:15 am

        That is good atheist, your mum has hope and have faith to live on…how about you? Where you brought up away from her? I just wonder you have totally opposite views in life….

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 6:44 am

        We cannot explain to you about the breaking apart of the Mount of Olive as that has yet to come in the end days…But how can we say this incident a mere imagery: During the seige of jerusalem in about 701 BC after Sennacherib king of Assyria sent a letter to the Jews under Hezekiah king of Judah mocking God, that next morning Sennacherib he woke up shocked in his entire life (I cannot imagine his utter disbelief) all his officers and men able bodied Assyrian Army 185,000 lay cold dead before him:

        [And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses. (2kings19:35)]

        Cynics reject to story because the miraculous destruction of Sennacherib’s army by pestilence are not confirmed by Assyrian records. Of course, because in ancient practice, shameful events are removed, or hidden from the records. However, one must reckon, how come the Sennacherib’s Prism boast of his capture of 46 town of Judah, and the shutting of Jerusalem like a ‘bird in a cage’, yet returned home without the accolade of conquest bringing back Jewish captives? Of course because he was given the consolation of heavy loot (tribute) from the temple. But why did he accepted the token loot and not took the entire city with all its grandeous riches with his mighty army? Because there was no more might lift in him; and his flight home was sped up with the rumours of Ethiopean army coming to pursue him…

        By the way Sennacherib returned to Nineveh in utter shame…and later in 681 BC murdered by parricide exactly as prophesied by Isaiah:

        [Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and shall return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land. (2Kings 19:7)]

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 8:54 am

        After the Jewish exile in Egypt the Canaanites were conquered again by Israelites during the days of Joshua, and the Judges. In fact, the Canaanites were last mentioned in the Bible by prophet Ezra (460-380 BC). This follows that Canaan was by principle of attrition, occupied by the Israelites through conquest; and just like the Americas and Australia by the English settlers, the occupation after centuries past became a political and historical finality. . Thereafter, land of Canaan became the territorial dominion of Israel, the nation of the Jews until the present…

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 8:56 am

        After the Jewish exile in Egypt the Canaanites were conquered again by Israelites during the days of Joshua, and the Judges. In fact, the Canaanites were last mentioned in the Bible by prophet Ezra (460-380 BC). This follows that Canaan was by principle of attrition, occupied by the Israelites through conquest; and just like the Americas and Australia by the English settlers, the occupation after centuries past became a political and historical finality. Thereafter, land of Canaan became the documented territorial dominion of Israel, the nation of the Jews until the present…

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 20, 2010, 9:08 am

        Go away zamass. Please go away. I honestly pity you. I feel sorry for you as if you were an open festering wound.

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 20, 2010, 9:20 am

        Could someone carry this baboon away please?.. It’s talking to me!!

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 9:34 am

        How can you pity me, when I am not hopeless, nor desperate?
        I fact, I am smiling at your mental fuses busting out! Remember this is A WAR OF IDEAS IN THE MIDDLE EAST!
        Come, let us reason together… (extracted from Isaiah 1:18 )

      • Chaos4700
        April 20, 2010, 9:38 am

        My, how un-Christ-like.

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 10:03 am

        Why, what is your basis to say un-Christian? In Biblical discipline we are thought to follow the rules, law, and principles – right is right, rules are rules, black is black, and white is white. Everything must be viewed with discernment…in accordance to Christian principles. We do not cherish rebellion, we chose obedience to the rules than self-righteousness. We value charity be within the bounds of Divine rules…We do not give support to one by sacrificing another man’s life! We do not give right to one by depriving the other…if we walk an extra mile for another person, it is ourself’s not another man’s life…everything must be in context of faith and obedience…Shall we give favor to needy Palestinians by sacrificing the right of the wealthier Jews?…the Jews might be many times priveleged than the rest of the communities in the region but right is right! Shall we bind the Jewish government to exercise their right for prerogatives? The love that we give to one, is our own love, not the love of others…

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 10:09 am

        The real bottom line here in this issue of governing is judgment…dont you know that in Christian discipline, we do not help people who refused to help themselves?
        [For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. (2Thessalonians 3:10)]

      • Shmuel
        April 20, 2010, 10:21 am

        Enough of this, zamaaz. This is really not the place to debate theology, but here is what Christian leaders in Palestine have to say on the matter:

        From the Jerusalem Declaration:

        We categorically reject Christian Zionist doctrines as false teaching that corrupts the biblical message of love, justice and reconciliation.
        We further reject the contemporary alliance of Christian Zionist leaders and organizations with elements in the governments of Israel and the United States that are presently imposing their unilateral pre-emptive borders and domination over Palestine. This inevitably leads to unending cycles of violence that undermine the security of all peoples of the Middle East and the rest of the world.
        We reject the teachings of Christian Zionism that facilitate and support these policies as they advance racial exclusivity and perpetual war rather than the gospel of universal love, redemption and reconciliation taught by Jesus Christ. Rather than condemn the world to the doom of Armageddon we call upon everyone to liberate themselves from the ideologies of militarism and occupation. Instead, let them pursue the healing of the nations!
        We call upon Christians in Churches on every continent to pray for the Palestinian and Israeli people, both of whom are suffering as victims of occupation and militarism. These discriminative actions are turning Palestine into impoverished ghettos surrounded by exclusive Israeli settlements. The establishment of the illegal settlements and the construction of the Separation Wall on confiscated Palestinian land undermines the viability of a Palestinian state as well as peace and security in the entire region.
        We call upon all Churches that remain silent, to break their silence and speak for reconciliation with justice in the Holy Land.

    • eljay
      April 19, 2010, 9:19 am

      >> The living have precedent over the dead.

      Not that it would necessarily be more justifiable if it were a block of flats being built on the cemetary in question, but do “the living” *really* need a “Museum of Tolerance”? And couldn’t “the living” at least have picked a name that was less ironic and trite?

      • eee
        April 19, 2010, 9:44 am

        Right, only Americans need museums. Did you really need to steal all the land the Smithsonian is built on? Could you not have left some of it for the Native Americans?

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 9:49 am

        That “museum of tolerance” is being built by an American. Slick argument, Willy.

      • eee
        April 19, 2010, 9:53 am

        The museum is built FOR Israelis genius, and for visitors to Jerusalem.

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 9:55 am

        ….By Americans. With American money. Can’t you do anything on your own?

      • eljay
        April 19, 2010, 9:58 am

        Thanks, I’ll take that to mean “no” and “well, yeah, I guess they could have…”. :-)

      • Mooser
        April 19, 2010, 10:08 am

        eee, you need to talk to Yonira. At the rate he’s converting Native Americans to Judaism, there won’t be any left in short order.

      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 10:01 pm

        Sorry I am tainting your Jewish race Mooser. She’ll be converted in a Reform synagogue, don’t worry you don’t even have to recognize her Judaism.

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 10:16 pm

        You’re insisting she convert then, huh?

      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 11:33 pm

        no i am not insisting on anything, I would like her to explore Judaism (like I did) and make up her own mind.

        I would like to raise the kids Jewish while teaching them about their ancestors on both sides. If I do marry the Native that Mooser keeps bringing up, maybe we can work in the Israeli flag on his or her head dress ;)

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 11:44 pm

        Isn’t that kind of like working the Confederate flag into a Dutch wax pattern?

      • RoHa
        April 19, 2010, 9:23 pm

        In this context “Tolerance” means “everyone else tolerating whatever Israel chooses to do”.

  15. eljay
    April 19, 2010, 10:00 am

    Clarification: Post 76 addressed post 72 which, in turn, was a reaction to post 71.

  16. Chaos4700
    April 19, 2010, 10:17 am

    Anyone else note that eee has totally dodged the issue of whether this graveyard he claims was raised by Jordan ever existed in the first place? Light on facts and documentation, heavy on slander and false accusation.

    • eee
      April 19, 2010, 10:23 am

      You are such an ignoramus and an hater. The Mt. Olives cemetery is the “best” place for a Jew to buried since antiquity. Anyone who knows anything about Jews knows that, so proving that there is a Jewish cemetery exists on Mt. Olives is like proving that the sun exists.

      link to goisrael.com

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 10:25 am

        …so you cited an Israeli tourism site instead of an academic source? How many Palestinian Jews were buried there? How many still are, out of curiosity?

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 10:26 am

        And anyway, I thought you were an atheist Jew.

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 10:27 am

        Jews have sought since antiquity to be buried on the Mount of Olives, where according to the Bible (Zech. 14:4) the resurrection will begin when the Messiah comes.

        …Bible? As in, the Christian Bible?

      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 10:00 pm

        What does that even mean Chaos? Don’t you consider the Old Testament part of the Christian Bible?

        link to biblegateway.com

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 10:13 pm

        I thought Jews didn’t call it the “Old Testament.” Isn’t that actually vaguely pejorative? I was actually taught a more respectful name for the divisions of the Christian Bible in Sunday school but I’ve admittedly forgotten it.

        And anyway, how often do Jewish people turn to the Christian interpretation of writings for their ancient Jewish history? Out of curiosity?

      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 10:21 pm


        c’mon dude, thats what its call the Old Testament. If you claim it was called something, you are full of shit.

        Keep digging dude, you are about to China right now…..

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 10:23 pm

        I’m just befuddled why Jews can’t find the reference in Jewish scriptures. Seriously, do you guys even read those things any more?

      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 10:25 pm

        Thats what Christians call it anyways, it’s call the Tanakh in Judaism, consisting of the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings.

      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 10:26 pm

        reference to what?

      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 10:27 pm

        The Tanakh = the Old Testament.

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 10:30 pm

        Seriously. Was that so hard? Although I’m unclear if the citation is equivocal in both works.

      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 10:36 pm

        The citations aren’t equivocal between the NIV and KJV. the JPS is the standard for Jewish bibles in America (and possible world wide) it will differ from the NIV and the KJV, but the message is the same.

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 2:24 am

        The Old Testament of Bible is actually part of the Torah…They are one in context and content…

      • MHughes976
        April 20, 2010, 10:30 am

        ‘Ta/na/kh’ is an acronym for ‘torah, nebiim, kethubim’, ‘the Law, the Prophets and the Writings’, the Law/Torah being what Christians tend to call the Pentateuch, the first five books of the 24.
        The Catholic Bible divides some of these books and adds new material, with originals known only in Greek, making 46 books. The Protestant Bible keeps the Catholic divisions and order of books but removes the Greek materials, accepting the interesting concept of ‘veritas Hebraica’ / ‘Hebrew authentiticy’, so we make do with 39 books. Jewish Bibles end with the Books of Chronicles, which means that the last word concerns the Restoration of the Temple and a call for aliyah. Christian Bibles end with the Book of Malachi, which means that the last word concerns or can more easily be interpreted as concerning the universal kingdom of God.
        Translations sometimes accept the Greek witness, as with Ps.xxii/16 ‘they have pierced my hands and my feet’ rather than the Heb. ‘like a lion are my hands and my feet’. The Old Testament, if we may call it that, was in some ways a multicultural effort.

      • Chaos4700
        April 20, 2010, 10:34 am

        Pentateuch! That was the word I’d forgotten from Sunday school. Thanks!

      • Shmuel
        April 20, 2010, 10:37 am

        Chaos: I’m just befuddled why Jews can’t find the reference in Jewish scriptures.

        The reference in question is from the book of Zechariah (14:4), which is part of the Hebrew Bible (less pejorative term than Old Testament).

      • Shmuel
        April 20, 2010, 10:41 am

        As MHughes wrote, “Pentateuch” (the “Five Books of Moses”) refers only to the first part of the Hebrew Bible, known in Hebrew as Torah or Humash.

      • Chu
        April 19, 2010, 11:58 am

        Go Israel? Great source. (At least it ain’t the cartoon network.)

    • yonira
      April 19, 2010, 9:54 pm
      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 9:55 pm

        Your Catholic family must be up in arms about the desecration which took place by the hands of the Jordanians following 1948. It’s and important site to both Jews and Christians.

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 10:28 pm

        Why? eee pointed out that the churches weren’t touched.

        And anyway, what does this prove? That the Jordanian king was doing something just as bad as what Israelis did when they started erasing native culture by razing hundreds of villages, mosques and graveyards, fabricated Modern Hebrew and gave themselves phony Middle Eastern sounding names? Well, almost as bad, since Jordan’s government stopped short of the whole gaggle of lies.

        It was wrong when the Israelis did this sort of thing in 1948, it was wrong when Jordan did it after, and its wrong when Israel is still doing it today.

        Seriously, what ground do you guys think you’ve gained in this discussion, exactly?

      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 10:32 pm

        Chaos, you said it didn’t happen, I am proving it did. Any desecration of Holy sites is ridiculous. It is all wrong. The point is you find it impossible to blame anyone but Israel for any wrongs in the world. You were questioning if the Mt Olive existed, if it was important to Judaism, and if it was desecrated. That is what I was proving.

        EEEs argument is stupid, it is an argument that you and Shingo are notorious for also. It’s the well Israel does this argument whenever anyone says anything bad about any of her neighbors. It’s a ridiculous argument, coming from both angles….

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 19, 2010, 10:40 pm

        Did you say in another post that you converted to Judaism yonira? Or did I get it wrong (a possibility)?
        I don’t know why but to me converting from one faith to another is the most bizarre thing a human can ever do, unless forced of course!..The only logical conversion is to atheism. But that’s me.

      • yonira
        April 19, 2010, 11:31 pm

        My father was Jewish and my mother wasn’t, I converted to Judaism about five years ago. Mostly for the jokes.

        Many in the Reform movement would consider me Jewish w/ out he conversion, pretty much everyone in the orthodox movement doesn’t consider me jewish.

        I did it for myself and for the identity of my future children, (if i can dube a woman into marrying me)

      • Chaos4700
        April 19, 2010, 11:42 pm

        Wait a minute. So you’ve only been Jewish for five years? You know, some people are Jewish all their lives, yonira, and they never become foul-mouthed bigots.

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 19, 2010, 11:48 pm

        I did it for myself and for the identity of my future children
        Hang on a sec. It sounds like you’re taking a life insurance.. Do you realise how bizarre that is?

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 19, 2010, 11:50 pm

        And the whole lot of you will earn a right of return to a land where the indigeneous are denied!
        EXCUSE ME!!

      • yonira
        April 20, 2010, 12:02 am

        What does being Jewish have to do with being a bigot? Do you think all Jews are bigots Chaos? What exactly are you trying to say? Stereotype much? I could sink to your level right now, but i am better than that ;)

      • yonira
        April 20, 2010, 12:03 am

        whats wrong with raising a child with a strong identity and knowledge of their roots? if its a Native child they will have that identity also.

      • yonira
        April 20, 2010, 12:15 am

        hopefully the occupation is over by then. or else we ain’t going anywhere….

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 20, 2010, 2:15 am

        whats wrong with raising a child with a strong identity and knowledge of their roots?
        Nothing! But I’d prefer to raise her in the belief that we as humans, all came from somewhere in East Africa in the rift valley region 250,000 years when there were no Jews, Arabs or Guatemalecs. It gives her a wider and more broad perspective of our humanity.

      • zamaaz
        April 20, 2010, 2:34 am

        I am a Christian but I am wishing the ancient Christian churches removed from Mount of Olives. It would be much meaningful emotionally and spiritually to restore the place and its ancient trees just as it was visited by Jesus of Nazareth and His disciples just as in the days of the Romans when they prayed there… True faith after all is not found in churches nor in any building, but in every heart of men…

        [Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean : from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
        A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
        And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
        And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. (Ezekiel 36:25-28)]

      • thankgodimatheist
        April 20, 2010, 4:11 am

        I am a Christian
        A Christian zionist and a distinguished f##kwit! A moron of biblical dimensions..! Oh, yeah!

      • RoHa
        April 20, 2010, 6:01 am

        Roots? Children aren’t cabbages.

        Identity? What’s that?

      • Shmuel
        April 20, 2010, 6:24 am

        RoHa: Children aren’t cabbages. Identity? What’s that?

        Actually, our roots go much further than specific or even general human culture.

        In the words of the 14th-century Provençal Jewish scholar Joseph ibn Kaspi:

        And the Giver of the Torah was not satisfied with all of His commandments until he informed us in all of them that we are living organisms, that we might know that we and the vegetables, like the cabbage and the horseradish, are brothers, and we share a single father.

    • yonira
      April 19, 2010, 9:57 pm

      LOL Chaos, no the Mount Olives cemetary never exists. Jesus dude….. give it up!!!

  17. MHughes976
    April 19, 2010, 1:09 pm

    As for the Christian Bible, the resurrection of some of the saints as witnesses for the crucifixion of Jesus (Mt.xxvii, 52) echoes the passage in Zechariah, where the Mount of Olives breaks apart. Mt. does not specify the Mount of Olives but has bodies spilling out and some being revived. Terrifying imagery, great poetry.
    Mind you, if we are to take Jewish and Christian religious imagery with some degree of seriousness and accord some respect to practices based on it – and this without strictly believing the relevant texts – we should presumably accord to Muslims and whatever beliefs they have about burial grounds something of the same respect.

    • zamaaz
      April 20, 2010, 5:32 am

      All of us are ‘fools’ Hughes. You might think we are fool because we believe, you might also be fool because you have nothing to believe…We are the same; both going to the grave. For you, you believe there is nothing beyond death, and there is no other answer except the surety of rotting in the grave; from nothing to nothing…While we totally believe, there is eternal life after death…For us there is more than we perceive with our natural senses…and that reflects to us the things we believe.

      • eljay
        April 20, 2010, 10:44 am

        >> For us there is more than we perceive with our natural senses…

        The faithful believe there’s more – because that belief gives meaning to their otherwise meaningless lives – but there isn’t anything more. And the only certainty that exists is that they, like everyone else, will rot in their graves and be forgotten.

        So while they mope about waiting to die so that they can get to the “afterlife” they believe exists, atheists like me will do our best to live happy, fulfilling lives – the only lives we have – right here and now.

        Can I get an “Amen”?! ;-)

  18. Walid
    April 19, 2010, 2:07 pm

    Coming from the other side of the fence, I’d say there is a very good chance that eee’s grandfather was telling the truth. Picking on the dead is the easiest thing for the frustrated during times of war and none of these stories of Arabs or Jews desecrating graves is improbable; ugly stuff was committed by both sides. Most of the tombstone markings at Saida’s Jewish cemetery were removed in the early 80s by IDF soldiers during the invasion of Lebanon. It seems that some of the soldiers recognized the names of their ancestors from the Hebrew markings on the graves and had decided to take back home something that was somewhat of a relic for their families. This doesn’t mean that Lebanese vandals didn’t have a hand at damaging any of the graves. We shouldn’t lose sight of the event back in 1945 when some Muslims clerics were thinking of leveling the Jerusalem cemetery to make room for a business complex but for some reason, this project didn’t materialize. I liked what eee said about that the living having to take precedence over the dead. If I had to pick between losing either the Muslim cemetery or the Palestinian population of Jerusalem at the hand of the Israelis, I’d rather lose the cemetery. Regrettably Israel wants to get rid of both.

    • MHughes976
      April 20, 2010, 10:07 am

      Our graves are no more immortal than we are and graveyards have to be cleared from time to time. In the churchyard where my father is buried some of the older stones have been moved to make way for new ones. This is land that has been in religious use since at least the tenth century yet the oldest grave I have seen dates to the late eighteenth, so there must have been a fairly continuous process of clearance over the centuries. But it is important that this must have been done by a continuous community not by outsiders, still less invaders. Places of burial have a certain solemnity – they are marked off and are a place for certain communities and families. The Deuteronomic curse on moving a neighbour’s landmark applies strictly only to farmland but most people would feel some similar compunction about land in religious use.

  19. javs
    April 19, 2010, 4:04 pm

    there will never be an obsurdity like the, “god gave it to us” lie, passed and believed for so many years. The cultured people mainly from russia whom are raised to bring the bible and rifle and then have others as in the christain evangelicals doing the bidding too, it is a sad day in gotham city batman.

    • zamaaz
      April 20, 2010, 2:41 am

      javs, this bloody war suppressing hundreds of thousands of people of their peace, and pursuit of happiness is between those who believe, and do not….that is why we are killing each other…and that is the reality…

    • zamaaz
      April 20, 2010, 2:49 am

      I you tell us without any basis, nor proof we believe in a lie, that is a not a problem to us…we have the ancient scriptures and we totally believe on it…That gave us the strength, and graciousness to live in peace in the midst of chaos…This, in our dying moments, is the most important to us, that we lived and enjoyed life to the fullest…How about you? anytime you might die without any iota of hope, and worst, you and your name will just return to nothingness and be forgotten in eternity because you die just like any animal on this planet…

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