Dual loyalty is truly a problem

Israel/Palestine
on 105 Comments

Have you heard all the talking heads on Chris Matthews and elsewhere saying it’s time for Muslim Americans and Latinos to assimilate to the American way of life? I know, it is an issue, especially when our drones are killing Muslim civilians. Well, some affection for a foreign country is completely kosher. From Politico. Make sure you read the last paragraph.

Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.)… plans to introduce a bill that would amend a decades-old law aimed at yanking citizenship from U.S. citizens who fight for a foreign military.

“I’m now putting together legislation to amend that to [specify that] any individual American citizen who is found to be involved in a foreign terrorist organization, as defined by the Department of State, would be deprived of their citizenship rights,” Lieberman said Tuesday.

Such a law would potentially cover terror suspect Faisal Shahzad, a Pakistani-born American citizen charged in connection with the attempted car bombing in New York City’s Times Square. He was apprehended Monday night at the city’s John F. Kennedy airport after he boarded a flight to Dubai.

“If you have joined an enemy of the United States in attacking the United States and trying to kill Americans, I think you sacrifice your rights of citizenship,” Lieberman said.

There is one exception to the existing law: Americans are allowed to serve in the Israel Defense Forces without losing their citizenship.

105 Responses

  1. Leper Colonialist
    May 5, 2010, 1:31 pm

    Well, file that under the “This Should Come As No Surprise to Any Reasonably Aware Human Being” Department.

    Can Senator Lieberman spell “d-o-u-b-l-e s-t-a-n-d-a-r-d” any more blantanly and any more clearly?

    Well, he could try caps. And boldface. And italics.

    • DICKERSON3870
      May 5, 2010, 10:01 pm

      RE: “Dual loyalty is truly a problem” – Weiss
      SEE: Are Israeli Policies Entrenching Anti-Semitism Worldwide? Tony Klug, Tikkun Magazine, May/June 2010
      (excerpt) Even posing the question is painful, for after all the suffering anti-Semitism has caused the Jewish people over the centuries, the last thing we need or deserve is to have it become a permanent state of affairs. Nonetheless, the proposition that the State of Israel, which was conceived as a way of normalizing relations between Jews and all other peoples, might instead be normalizing anti-Semitism is not one we can simply close our eyes to in the forlorn hope that it will go away of its own accord.
      I realize I may be stepping near the knuckle here. As Lady Bracknell in The Importance of Being Earnest might have said, “To take on one controversial topic may be regarded as a misfortune; to combine two controversial topics looks like carelessness.” However, to my mind, the two topics (Israeli policies and anti-Semitism) are not separate and unrelated but ineluctably converging—an inference I draw reluctantly from my forty years of engagement on both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian divide. I believe that the danger signals are flashing and that it is important to be candid about these matters at these uncertain times….
      ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to tikkun.org

  2. Les
    May 5, 2010, 1:35 pm

    “There is one exception to the existing law: Americans are allowed to serve in the Israel Defense Forces without losing their citizenship.”

    Can someone fill us in on the origins of such a law?

  3. MarkF
    May 5, 2010, 1:58 pm

    Our (conservative) synagogue encourages it. One kid stood at the podium during high holidays a few years back saying he was joining the IDF because he didn’t want “a bunch of animals” ruining his home land. He didn’t make aliya. He was too valuable a tool for the yearly Israel bond drive.

    Anyway, I guess under this new proposed law we’ll have to expand gitmo.

  4. Richard Witty
    May 5, 2010, 2:07 pm

    Can Americans serve in the Canadian army and retain citizenship, Norwegian, French, Australian?

    Please bother to check it out before you single out Israel?

    “But doesn’t serving in a foreign army result in automatic loss of US
    citizenship?
    No. As explained above, essentially nothing causes automatic loss of
    US citizenship any more. If you join a foreign army, you can lose your
    US citizenship if you acted with the intent of giving it up.
    Otherwise, you can still keep it.

    Current US law says that foreign military service will result in loss
    of US citizenship if the person served as an officer (commissioned or
    non-commissioned) or the foreign military force is engaged in
    hostilities against the US; the service was voluntary; and (most
    importantly) the person intended to give up his US citizenship.

    Current US policy goes further. Unless a dual citizen is serving in a
    “policy level position” in a foreign government, commits treason
    against the US (e.g., by fighting the US voluntarily during wartime),
    or acts in a manner considered totally inconsistent with any possible
    intent to keep US citizenship, the State Department is unlikely to
    take any action. Further, the current policy statement on foreign
    military service recognizes that dual citizens sometimes find
    themselves legally obligated to participate in the military forces of
    their other country of citizenship, and can do so in such situations
    without endangering their US status.”
    link to richw.org

    “Voting in a foreign election, serving in a foreign army, or swearing
    allegiance to a foreign government used to be automatic grounds for
    losing U.S. citizenship. But a 5-4 decision by the U.S. Supreme Court
    in 1967 made it all but impossible for someone to lose U.S.
    citizenship unless he or she wants to give it up.

    The case involved a naturalized American citizen originally from
    Poland, who moved to Israel in 1950. Beys Afroyim tried to get his
    U.S. passport renewed in 1960, but the State Department turned him
    down. Afroyim had voted in Israeli elections, which meant he had
    automatically lost his U.S. citizenship, the department said.

    The Supreme Court said the 14th Amendment effectively elevated
    citizenship to a constitutional right and ruled that it can be lost
    only if renounced.”
    link to usbc.org

    “The basic point of Afroyim v. Rusk was that the 14th Amendment to
    the US Constitution — while originally intended mainly to
    guarantee
    citizenship to freed Negro slaves and their descendants — had
    effectively elevated citizenship to the status of a
    constitutionally
    protected right. Hence, Congress had no right to pass a law
    saying
    that doing such-and-so would deprive someone of his US citizenship
    against his will. Specifically, US laws mandating automatic loss
    of
    citizenship for voting in a foreign election, working for a
    foreign
    government, serving in a foreign army, or even swearing allegiance
    to a foreign country were invalid; said laws =must= provide for
    the
    possibility that someone could do one of these things and
    neverthe-
    less intend to retain his US citizenship.”
    link to siber.org

    “Thus, the court ruled, a section of the Immigration and Nationality
    Act mandating automatic loss of citizenship for voting in a foreign
    election was invalid. Other, similar provisions providing for loss of
    citizenship for serving in a foreign army, or even swearing allegiance
    to a foreign country, were similarly invalid unless the action was
    accompanied by an intent to give up US citizenship”
    link to richw.org

    • Richard Witty
      May 5, 2010, 2:12 pm

      The dual loyalty theme again is a very dangerous one, and if brought up must be addressed very carefully.

      There are MANY that condemn first, inquire later.

      • sherbrsi
        May 5, 2010, 2:15 pm

        There are MANY that condemn first, inquire later.

        Yes like you demonstrate on many occasions yourself.

        There is no reasonable argument to be advanced after calling someone a “reptile.”

        I hope you will reconsider and retract your condemnation, if only in the interests of mutual reconciliation and dialogue.

      • Mooser
        May 5, 2010, 2:43 pm

        “The dual loyalty theme again is a very dangerous one, and if brought up must be addressed very carefully.”

        Oh, I don’t know, Richard. The Zionists don’t seem to be at all afraid of it, nor do they feel at all obligated to do or even say anything which might dispel those suspicions.
        It’s all part of that grand ol Sovereign State game you Zionists were so eager to play with your religion.
        “Daul loyalty” in one form or another, will be a very effective charge to make, considering the actions (did you hear the word, Richard, a-c-t-i-o-n-s?) of many Zionists and their organisations.

        But of course, it’s us, as critics of Israel, who bear the responsibility to never make those charges. It’s never, ever the responsibility of Zionists to act, say, in a manner which will not be invidious or possibly harmful to other American Jews, or act in a way which leaves no question about their loyalties.
        Sure Richard. Hey, at least throw us a curve every once in a while. Don’t you want to get rid of those hobgoblins?

      • Richard Witty
        May 5, 2010, 2:54 pm

        Its a fascist theme is all. There is no way to present without invoking some “more equal American” comment.

        It is not against the law for an American to serve in a foreign military, simple.

        The way to make change is to make the better argument, not the better ridicule.

      • Citizen
        May 5, 2010, 3:07 pm

        It appears currently, that no US citizen can give up his or her citizenship by, for example serving in a foreign military, or voting in a foreign election. A US court would have to find by the civil proof standard of “clear and convincing” evidence that there was an intention to give up US citizenship, and that apart from any actions, such as the two I just gave. I makes an American wonder
        what the concept of disloyalty means. Only newly naturalized immigrants to the US actually have to swear a loyalty oath. The US is currently headed up by man who’s actual US citizenship is reasonably in doubt–the case is in SCOTUS now. And his right hand, RI, served in Israel in a supportive arm of the IDF. I just wonder what people like eee or Witty would think if the shoe was on the other foot.

      • Citizen
        May 5, 2010, 3:10 pm

        Eee, for example has called Goldstone a traitor.

      • eee
        May 5, 2010, 3:15 pm

        If an Israeli wants to serve in the US armed forces, I have no problem with that.

      • Richard Witty
        May 5, 2010, 3:18 pm

        The law provides for prosecution and loss of citizenship for serving in a foreign army for which the US is at war.

        The US is not at war with Israel, nor Canada, nor England. I don’t know what would happen if a US citizen joined the Iranian army.

        Its an interesting question.

      • marc b.
        May 5, 2010, 4:00 pm

        and if brought up must be addressed very carefully.

        Its a fascist theme

        ah, to be told to shut the f@ck up by witty. he’s so coy.

      • Danaa
        May 5, 2010, 6:43 pm

        An israeli serving in the US armed forces? that be the day, eee. Israelis do not give a hoot about America and have zero affinity for its values. They are way too selfish to support anything not strictly jewish, and even Judaism they define in such a way as to exclude the majority of American Jews. Some day, the jews will figure this out en mass.

        BTW, you do know that the percentage of american jewish people serving in the US military is well under 0.5%. I guess they are busy serving their country concocting deriviatives for Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan, hedging their bets on hedge funds, waxing on the opinion pages of NYT and WAPO; oh yes, and getting themselves elected to congress where the percentage of people of jewish descent is 13%. Then they wonder why the credibility of aipac-engineered resolutions to kill Iranians and invade other muslim countries have no national security credibility whatsoever to anyone who can read (and not just listen to fox or the dersh). Maybe because there’s a growing suspicion that there’s a strong element in the US for which it’s another country’s security they really care about?

        Just in case you are math challenged (I know rachel is) here is the ratio for you: a factor of over 26 more jewish people serve in the senate than in the US military. Now what could this possibly mean?

        And BTW, I do like Feingold ovwerall (I’d vote for him anyday). As for Lieberman, the israeli stooge, he needs to be sent into storage somewhere nice, like gitmo?

      • Citizen
        May 5, 2010, 6:57 pm

        Yep; and how about a US citizen who serves in the IDF, protecting Israeli settlers while those settlers (from the USA yet, often) are violating official US foreign policy?

      • Citizen
        May 5, 2010, 7:03 pm

        I wonder how many average Americans realize there is more arab/muslim young men and women in the US military ranks than
        jews? Perhaps the arab Americans should start pointing this out?
        OTH, who would allow such information on the public airwaves?

      • Todd
        May 5, 2010, 10:04 pm

        All this talk of dual loyalty and Jews serving in the U.S. military reminds me of an NPR program several years back where Jews were once again talking about being Jewish–I believe the program was Fresh Air. Anyway, Jewish kids (surprise!) were talking about their futures. Many spoke of going to Israel or joining the IDF, and several others said that they would join the U.S military because the skills they would learn would be useful when they joined the IDF. Great! Only idiots would feel so comfortable speaking in such a way. It’s hard to believe that NPR fills the airwanes with this stuff day after day. How smart is that?

        I live in a small town with few Jews and no Jewish community, and I often hear high school kids talking and acting like the Jews they see on television. They are clearly aware of Jewish influence on some level, and I have to believe that they also pick up on the condescending attitudes directed at them. These kids are heavily recruited by the military in the local schools, and I know quite a few who are going straight to the military as soon as they graduate. I’ll start asking kids who return from Afghanistan and Iraq what they think about Jews serving in the IDF, or those who serve in the U.S. military so they can help the IDF. I look forward to those conversations.

      • yonira
        May 5, 2010, 10:11 pm

        I live in a small town with few Jews and no Jewish community, and I often hear high school kids talking and acting like the Jews they see on television.

        what on earth does this even mean. how exactly do jews talk and act todd? do they speak jewbonics and wear kippah?

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 10:16 pm

        Yada, yada, yada, yonira. Stop being such a schmuck. They don’t teach kosher words until you’re sixth year or something? :)

      • yonira
        May 5, 2010, 10:20 pm

        whats w/ your english lately chaos, you are really slipping dude. it is your, not you’re

        when do they teach you not to share your smack needles w/ your boyfriend?

        and do you know what todd is talking about? king (or queen if you’d prefer) of irrelevancy….

      • yonira
        May 5, 2010, 10:22 pm

        the meth is making you dumb…..

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 10:29 pm

        Well, now that you’ve descended into the usual spewing of garbage, I’ll take that as a clear indication you have no intelligent response.

        I wasn’t exactly holding my breath in that regard, of course.

      • Todd
        May 5, 2010, 10:30 pm

        You must not be from the U.S., Yonira. When I hear kids that I know are not Jewish calling each other schmucks, using other Yiddish words, or making references to Jewish humor or culture that I know did not come from their homes or community, I understand that they are being influenced from the outside. Its hard not to be exposed to Jewish cultural references in the mass media. I resent it, and I suspect that many others will grow tired of the situation as well.

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 10:33 pm

        And incidentally? “You are fifth year” still works grammatically. I was equating it to a grade, and it is perfectly valid to utilize a linking verb to assign an attribute of ranking to a person or thing.

      • Todd
        May 5, 2010, 10:34 pm

        “and do you know what todd is talking about? king (or queen if you’d prefer) of irrelevancy….”

        I’d rather have your opinion about American Jewish kids openly talking of joining the U.S. military because they believe they could later help the IDF. How should an American take that bit of information, on NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO, no less!

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 10:39 pm

        Todd, I myself don’t resent it insomuch, but I do recognize that it is a direct result of the mass media being disproportionately held in Jewish hands. Which I wouldn’t consider necessarily a bad thing, if it weren’t being used as a tool by the Zionist power bloc that wields authority in the American Jewish community to perpetuate hateful stereotypes of Muslims and Arabs, to conceal the crimes of Israel and to fabricate phony excuses to drive the United States and the rest of the Western world into wars with countries with Muslim majorities.

      • yonira
        May 5, 2010, 10:42 pm

        jesus man, you are a so full of shit it’s funny. your boyfriend (when he is not passed out on a meth binge) must get really irritated with you always being right.

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 10:44 pm

        So, what exactly did you study in college, supposedly, yonira?

      • yonira
        May 5, 2010, 10:46 pm

        that is a pretty ridiculous thing Todd. The logic isn’t really there either. Upward mobility is much easier to achieve in the IDF than in the US military based on sheer numbers alone.

        Two of my good friends in college joined the IDF, one is still enlisted. I am sure neither of them thought of joining the US military first.

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 10:50 pm

        Upward mobility is much easier to achieve in the IDF than in the US military based on sheer numbers alone.

        Oh, so it’s all about ambition and pay scale as far as you and your friends are concerned, huh? That’s a pretty insightful thing to bring up on an article about the problems with dual loyalty.

      • Todd
        May 5, 2010, 10:54 pm

        I’m just relaying what I heard. If anyone has faulty logic, it’s the people who made the statements. Who knows, maybe they were Jonathan Pollard types? Either way, I resent their motives.

      • yonira
        May 5, 2010, 10:57 pm

        to fabricate phony excuses to drive the United States and the rest of the Western world into wars with countries with Muslim majorities.

        who perpetrated the 10 most recent terrorist attacks or attempted terrorist attacks in America Chaos, were they Jews? were they Christians? were the Hindu, were they Buddhist?

        Islamic terrorist are doing a pretty damn good job at creating the stereotypes themselves.

      • yonira
        May 5, 2010, 10:59 pm

        Todd,

        that is what i meant, the people who said that were dumb-asses i wasn’t talking about you or your logic. it wouldn’t make sense to join the US military in hopes of helping the IDF in the future.

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 11:04 pm

        You mean besides the the guy who flew the plane into the IRS building, the death threats against Congresspeople over health care reform, and the guns that Tea Party protesters are found of carrying when they march outside of venues where the President is speaking?

        Or does being white automatically disqualify someone from being a terrorist? Timothy McVeigh must be feeling retroactively relieved.

      • Todd
        May 5, 2010, 11:06 pm

        Okay, but it depends on what their actual intentions were. Maybe they planned to follow in the footsteps of Jonathan Pollard. Either way, I resent their loyalty to Israel.

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 11:08 pm

        Oh, I forgot the DC sniper and alarming trend of college campus shootings, too. You must be at least this Muslim to be a terrorist, yonira, huh?

      • yonira
        May 5, 2010, 11:13 pm

        you mean the DC sniper, John Allen Muhammed?

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 11:15 pm

        The African American who joined the branch of Islam that was founded in Detroit? Yeah, that one.

      • aparisian
        May 6, 2010, 8:18 am

        Keeping trolling and showing your true racist face, asshole yonira like most of your Zionists friends. One question yonira and think about it. Were Muslims behind the holocaust as well? Zionists are the white colonialists not Muslims.

      • MarkF
        May 5, 2010, 3:19 pm

        I agree it’s dangerous to bring up dual loyalty.

        I do take issue with those who join the IDF and serve in the West Bank advancing policies that are at complete odds with the stated policy of the government of the person’s citiznship. In my example above, the young man served protecting settlers in the Occupied Territories.

      • Mooser
        May 5, 2010, 3:33 pm

        No matter what the law is, why on earth would an American feel called upon to serve in the Israeli Army? America has a perfectly good Army, as those things go.
        Why does Israel need foreigners to serve in its Army?

        But just keep screeching “There’s no law against it”! That’ll go over real good.

      • eee
        May 5, 2010, 3:38 pm

        Why did Hemingway fight in the Spanish Civil War?
        Why did American pilots volunteer to fight in WWI, way before the US joined the war?

        Americans have always fought for just causes even if their government didn’t.

      • Mooser
        May 5, 2010, 3:59 pm

        eee, refresh my memory. Who had the “just” cause in WW1?

      • Citizen
        May 5, 2010, 4:01 pm

        Hopefully, Americans will soon join Hamas?

      • Citizen
        May 5, 2010, 4:04 pm

        Good question, Mooser, as to WW1. As to the Spanish Civil War,
        we had Gurenica. And now we have Gaza. Great paintings!

      • Mooser
        May 5, 2010, 4:06 pm

        “Americans have always fought for just causes even if their government didn’t.”

        Yess, eee, I get all misty-eyed and salute when I think of those gallant boys in grey, rallying to their just cause under the stars-and-bars! Ah! I hear the banjos strumming, soft and low!

      • eee
        May 5, 2010, 4:07 pm

        A couple of Brits did and were implicated in a suicide bombing. I recommend you join as you support their cause. Why not? That is better than BSing on a blog. Why don’t you organize a company of Americans to fight alongside Hamas in Gaza?

      • eee
        May 5, 2010, 4:09 pm

        “eee, refresh my memory. Who had the “just” cause in WW1?”

        I meant that Americans fought for causes they thought just even if their government did not think so. Which means that you should join the Hamas and take Citizen with you.

      • marc b.
        May 5, 2010, 4:10 pm

        careful, mooser. some people get all weepy about wwI, just like the civil war here in the states with dopes like ken burns going all sepia-toned daguerreotypey over ‘brothers killing brothers’, as if there were great honor it that. my polish grandfather fought in wwI and had a useless arm to show for it, a scar an inch wide running from elbow to shoulder. he couldn’t stop talking about what a swell time he and his buddies had sitting in the trenches, waiting to be gassed, or for some nitwit officer to decide it was time to go over the top. ah, now that was a war! and what, we couldn’t likely have enjoyed wwII without the first last great war. wadja say, a couple of beers and we can go bayonette a few bosch. for old times sake.

      • Psychopathic god
        May 5, 2010, 4:39 pm

        you’ve put your finger on it, eee: non-Israeli Americans tend NOT to serve in IDF because it’s not fighting for a just cause.

      • eee
        May 5, 2010, 4:44 pm

        Non Palestinian Americans do not serve in Fatah or Hamas thus proving that the Palestinian cause is not just.

      • Citizen
        May 5, 2010, 7:08 pm

        Gee, how many Americans fought in the jewish militia who terrorized the brits and arabs before the zionists declared themselves a state and got Russian arms via the enslaved Czechs?

      • Charles Turpin
        May 5, 2010, 8:12 pm

        Hemingway was a correspondent during Spanish Civil War. I do not believe that he served in any military unit.

      • thankgodimatheist
        May 5, 2010, 10:47 pm

        Arno Klarsfeld son of Serge and Beate Klarsfeld the “Nazi-hunters” served in the IDF before he served under Sarkozy( as a foreign minister) in 2005..Also in the Fillon gov’t in 2009.
        Although he was 10 years above the legal age to join the IDF( some zeal there!) he went on to become an officer and serve at checkpoints in the Ocuppied Territories! Oui Monsieur!
        Tfooh!
        Arno Klarsfeld militaire israelien (video)
        link to dailymotion.com

      • thankgodimatheist
        May 5, 2010, 10:48 pm

        Arno Klarsfeld French and Israeli citizen of course.

      • Chu
        May 5, 2010, 7:47 pm

        Great post Richard. Best one I’ve read of yours. If only more of your arguments could be this substantial, I would read them much more often.

        But laws can change if the State feels threatened by outside forces. And supporting an army who is in violation in international law is not helping the US (the US has enough dirty laundry to wash).
        Look at internment camps during WWII. I’m not implying it’ll be camps for questionable patriots, but it can change fast in times of uncertainty. The media’s cover up of Palestine is starting to rot in the daylight, with the open access to balanced information over the internet.

        “The Lieberman proposal is also very problematic. “-you said it about Lieberman. He is only hurting Jews with his ‘except the Jews’ clause when drafting laws. He is bad news for Jews, Democrats and the country. We’ll have to wait until the reelection cycle to see if the country favors Lieberman and his unique style of independence.

    • Ael
      May 5, 2010, 10:50 pm

      Richard is correct. I know several Americans who have served in the Canadian Armed Forces (and a couple Canadians who served in the American Army). I even know one dual citizen who served in both the Canadian and American armed forces.

  5. Richard Witty
    May 5, 2010, 3:22 pm

    The Lieberman proposal is also very problematic.

    • Chaos4700
      May 5, 2010, 6:22 pm

      You know, making one vague lukewarm statement after constructing a mile high straw man, Witty, is rather like trying to weigh down a hot air balloon with a pair of 2-pound physical therapy dumbbells.

      Believe me, you bring a lot more hot air to the discussion than you do gravity.

  6. Mooser
    May 5, 2010, 3:25 pm

    No one is talking about charging anyone for treason, yet. We are talking about the perception of disloyalty, and the way loyalty is judged in a political sense.
    And, as I said, Zionists don’t seem to be worried about it at all. It’s a win-win for them. They don’t care, and if it reflects badly on other American Jews, and impacts their life negatively, well, then they should make aliyah.

    • Richard Witty
      May 5, 2010, 3:36 pm

      “No one is talking about charging anyone for treason, yet. “

      • Mooser
        May 5, 2010, 3:41 pm

        Witty, people have at one time or another, committed treason against the US. Are you saying it would be impossible for an American citizen to commit treason against the US for Israel?

        Like I said, not yet. But the great degree to which Israel has decided to involve itself with and in the US military and STate apparatus makes the likelihood of the charge, warranted or not, more and more likely.
        In fact, it could be entirely trumped up, those things happen.
        This is the game you wanted to play with your religion, welcome to it.

      • Richard Witty
        May 5, 2010, 3:44 pm

        Treason is remote.

        The dual loyalty invocation is NOT about specific cases with sufficient burden of evidence. It is a generalization, an invocation of fear.

      • Richard Witty
        May 5, 2010, 3:44 pm

        A rationalization for a prejudice

      • Mooser
        May 5, 2010, 3:50 pm

        “A rationalization for a prejudice”

        I don’t know how you can live in AMerica, Witty, with all that anti-Semitism. How have you escaped the camps so far?

      • Mooser
        May 5, 2010, 3:55 pm

        “A rationalization for a prejudice”

        Oh, now I get it. Being afraid of Muslim-supremacist ethnic theocracies is just rational. But being afraid of Jewish-supremacist ethnic theocracies, well, that’s just a “rationalisation for a prejudice.”

      • Mooser
        May 5, 2010, 3:57 pm

        And like I said, those “prejudices” (which give rise to accusations of dual loyalty against Zionists) have been so extant in the US. Gosh, they used to round up and shoot Zionists by the score, didn’t they?

      • marc b.
        May 5, 2010, 3:58 pm

        yes a rationalization for ‘prejudice’. perhaps it’s time for a trip to the dictionary. american zionists have hitched their wagon to another country. ‘the jews’ are a nation afterall, and the nation-state is israel.

      • Psychopathic god
        May 5, 2010, 4:43 pm

        have no fear, Mooser; Foxman is here, er, in DC anyway, with a battalion of zionists demanding of the battalion of American bureaucrats & lawmakers that those Americans DO something about the “pandemic of anti semitism” that is sweeping…. sweeping somewhere….

  7. Mooser
    May 5, 2010, 3:30 pm

    “The dual loyalty theme again is a very dangerous one, and if brought up must be addressed very carefully”

    Remember, boys, you are fighting for this woman’s honor, which is more than she ever did for herself! (Marx- Duck Soup)

    You don’t want people to question your political or national loyalty, don’t divide them in a way which hurts your countrymen. No, I am not talking about eating gefilte fish instead of a MacDonald’s fishwich.

  8. Mooser
    May 5, 2010, 3:37 pm

    “The dual loyalty theme again is a very dangerous one…

    Sure Witty, the history of the Jews in America shows clearly that fears of Jewish Dual loyalty have plagued us since what’s-his-name helped finance the American Revolution.

    No, there was very little problem with it until Israel made it a problem.

    • Mooser
      May 5, 2010, 3:48 pm

      I never thought about that before, and I gotta admit, it’s a good one! Why can’t my life operate by these rules?

      Israel, or Zionism, can never be the source or cause of a problem! Any problems which arise over Israel or Zionism are always the result of longstanding anti-Semitism imposing itself on the situation.

      Thus, Israel, or Zionists don’t have to be careful of acting in a way which might engender perceptions of dual loyalty, or even be treasonous. Nope, we have to be careful not to mention those things, lest we rouse the monster of American anti-Semitism, which has consumed as many as, like, five(?) American Jews in two hundred years.

  9. Mooser
    May 5, 2010, 4:02 pm

    Oh wait, this is funny. Everybody is joining the IDF, but not our trolls here!

    I want to thank you, eee, Julian, Yonira, and the rest. Yes, no one will ever accuse American Jews of dual loyalty on your account!

    • Citizen
      May 5, 2010, 4:10 pm

      Gee, Mooser, you forgot Witty. I’m sure he feels neglected. Thank G-D Nixon banished the military draft. All we have left is neocon chicken hawks and those hot-blooded people out there in fly-over land that get bored flipping McDonald’s burgers and fries.

      • Mooser
        May 5, 2010, 4:56 pm

        Well, it’s just that IDF service, I thought was compulsory, starting at 18 with heavy reserve involvement into your 40s. I would think it would be a big part of Yonira’s, eee’s, and Julian’s life. And yet they never seem to mention it.
        Your military service, Citizen as I’m sure you’ll agree, was a pretty big life experience, took up a big chunk of life-time even if you didn’t stay for a full career (20-30 years?) and you, I’m sure, haven’t forgotten it.
        But our young Israeli lions never seem to mention their IDF service. I wonder why? As I’m sure eee would be the first to agree, we goddam sure can’t depend on God to defend the Jews. He doesn’t do squat, huh, eee? So we have the IDF.

      • Citizen
        May 5, 2010, 7:21 pm

        It just took up three years of my life, Mooser, but they were my last three teen years, so they did make an impression. I don’t deny it. I do understand what it means to young Israelis. I have very mixed thoughts about the pros and cons of Military Draft. It’s actually an important issue, as I’m sure you know. Where would the US have been without conscription during the Vietnam war, a useless war; OTH where are we now with a “volunteer” army? In a war approaching a decade that makes even less sense.

      • edwin
        May 5, 2010, 8:24 pm

        I hate to say it, but the draft was probably what ended the Vietnam war. White middle class American wasn’t going to sit there and watch their children die. I suspect that White middle class America will take a mite longer to get tired of poor white folk dieing and even a bit longer for poor brown skinned folk.

  10. Mooser
    May 5, 2010, 4:12 pm

    That’s another nice thing about being Jewish these days. So maybe I’ve grown up in a world which has been, in the main, entirely not just tolerant, but philo-semitic. Never known anything except that. But I still have the right to look very serious and say something like “I agree it’s dangerous to bring up dual loyalty”, like I just barely escaped the last pogrom!
    Who else gets to do that? Nobody!

    • Citizen
      May 5, 2010, 7:36 pm

      LOL. Mooser, you need to talk more with Witty. He’s an old soldier who’s been through the mill. Didn’t he use to work nights at a steel mill to pay his rent and put himself though community college during the day, after his war years, which took away his youth? I hear he’s got a Harley
      pig in his garage and he sits on it and reads Proust.

  11. Brett
    May 5, 2010, 5:52 pm

    There’s no way this is constitutional, particularly not with an exception carved out for one particular state.

    Wouldn’t that be kind of amusing in a dark way, though, if the Supreme Court held up the removal-of-citizenship – but removed the “Israel” exemption? Poor Rahm Emanuel and Jeffrey Goldberg would both lose their citizenship.

  12. Chaos4700
    May 5, 2010, 6:27 pm

    There is one exception to the existing law: Americans are allowed to serve in the Israel Defense Forces without losing their citizenship.

    Crap, man, a dual Israeli citizen can steal literally tons of classified information from our government and not have to put up with so much as an arrest warrant.

    Conversely, those same dual citizens could murder American activists and the State Department doesn’t lift a finger.

    That burning sensation we Americans are all feeling? It’s the dagger in our back going septic.

  13. rachel
    May 5, 2010, 7:18 pm

    “Just in case you are math challenged (I know rachel is) here is the ratio for you: a factor of over 26 more jewish people serve in the senate than in the US military. Now what could this possibly mean?”

    Huh… more Jewish people in the senate than in the army…..?
    Is this going to be on the test?

    • Citizen
      May 5, 2010, 7:48 pm

      Anyone in the US can read the names, ages, and hometowns of the expended cannonfodder in Iraq or Afghanistan. Often, they can see their pics too. No test involved. Further, anyone can dig up the history and pics of any UC congress person or governmental appointee or stink tanker. Again, no test involved.

      • Danaa
        May 5, 2010, 9:42 pm

        citizen – rachel likes tests. And I like to accommodate…if a test is what it takes, who am I to quibble?

    • Danaa
      May 5, 2010, 9:40 pm

      rachel – only ratios will be on the test. To one significant digit at the most so it won’t be too hard.

      Unfortunately, calculators will not be allowed on this topic.

      Important hint: the percentage of people of Jewish descent at IVY leagues has been covered earlier this quarter – right here at the Mondoweiss school – but may be a good idea to brush up (example: 35% at harvard – does that sound right?)

      Essay topics will be distributed ahead of time…emphasis will be on the last line in the sentence you quote: “what does it all mean?” in the following contexts (OK to pick just one): historical, geographical, spiritual, national, economical and, of course, my own favorite – mathematical.

  14. eee
    May 5, 2010, 10:57 pm

    “Just in case you are math challenged (I know rachel is) here is the ratio for you: a factor of over 26 more jewish people serve in the senate than in the US military. Now what could this possibly mean?”

    It means Phil, Danaa and Mooser and their ilk don’t want to serve their country. Why are are not more anti-zionist Jews joining the US armed forces?

    • Chaos4700
      May 5, 2010, 11:01 pm

      Seems like there are more non-Zionist Jews than Zionist Jews to be had in the US military, at any rate. Yonira explained rather nicely what dual loyalty does to the patriotic motivations of Zionist Jews:


      The logic isn’t really there either. Upward mobility is much easier to achieve in the IDF than in the US military based on sheer numbers alone.

      Two of my good friends in college joined the IDF, one is still enlisted. I am sure neither of them thought of joining the US military first.

      At least non-Zionist Jews have their home country (and presumably, not necessarily their pocketbooks in lieu of) as priority instead of a foreign country.

      • yonira
        May 5, 2010, 11:07 pm

        Not sure I understand what you are talking about, but if you think my friends were making $$$ in the IDF, think again. They were Zionists and made Aliyah, I don’t see where the dual loyalty is, their loyalty was to Israel and the moved their.

        Again, as usual Chaos, fucking clueless……

      • yonira
        May 5, 2010, 11:09 pm

        (btw, in case you are dense, i was mocking you w/ my inability to spell words correctly.) hope you got that….

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 11:10 pm

        Riiight. Sure you were.

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 11:11 pm

        Seems to me that either way, your friends turned their backs on the United States.

      • yonira
        May 5, 2010, 11:18 pm

        LOL, you just don’t get when you are being mocked do you? it must be a tough life dude!

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 11:28 pm

        Not even man enough to confront the fact that your friends effectively abandoned the United States, huh. When’s it going to be your turn to give the rest of us the proverbial finger on your way out?

      • yonira
        May 5, 2010, 11:46 pm

        They were my friends and I support them. much like I hope your friends supported you when you came out of the closet.

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 11:47 pm

        Yeah, but the difference between me and my friends, and you and your friends, is that you and your friends apparently couldn’t give two shits about the country you were born a citizen to.

    • yonira
      May 5, 2010, 11:07 pm

      Don’t ask don’t tell is part of it eee, chaos likes to flaunt it.

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 11:12 pm

        I take it then all of these gays who are being drummed out of the military for being open is just a barrel of laughs for you, huh, yonira?

      • yonira
        May 5, 2010, 11:16 pm

        don’t ask don’t tell is a disgrace, it needs to be repealed.

        Our military could learn a lot from the IDF regarding the treatment of gays in the military.

        link to jweekly.com

      • Chaos4700
        May 5, 2010, 11:16 pm

        Why not? Our military apparently learned a lot already from the IDF regarding the treatment of Muslim civilians.

    • Danaa
      May 6, 2010, 12:31 am

      hey eee, just so you know – I actually served in the IDF (what choice was there), which helped start me on the path to the cure from false patriotism and misconceptions about what Israeli “values” (like equality between genders, or equality between races, or the value of respect for one’s fellow humans, or the famous “shoot and cry” – them pilots liked nothing better than to shoot down some Arabs – they bragged about their bombing runs like well, the pilots in the wikileaks video – just more crudely). On the positive side, I assure you that my service brought grief to all my commanders – or those who tried to so be. Obeying orders was just never my forte, what can I say?

      I do regret though that I did not get to serve for the US military instead. Would have probably become a pilot the israeli air force wouldn’t let me be…..

      Why don’t you eee tell people here what the real purpose of having females in the IDF is? surely they might like to know……or would you like me to share what I know (and I do know stuff….)?

      • Citizen
        May 6, 2010, 9:50 am

        LOL, Danaa, It was the same for me with the US Army. Now, what is the real purpose of having females in the IDF? Wonder how much it really differs from the US Army…

  15. Chu
    May 6, 2010, 7:00 am

    Danaa,
    I’m interested to know.

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