My Holocaust education

Israel/PalestineUS Politics
on 287 Comments

I’m writing my Senior Research Paper (at Cal State Northridge) on the Palestinian Right of Return, and my professor suggested I examine the precedents of compensation and repatriation set by the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust.

I started investigating the Claims Conference stuff, and I decided to delve deeper into the actual stories. The more I read the more I was horrified.

Horrified that humanity could watch this and do nothing. Horrified by the parallels between Nazi treatment of Jews and Israeli treatment of Palestinians.

And furious at the exploitation of these innocent victims to justify dehumanizing and oppressing other people.

Before this, about all the Holocaust education I’d ever gotten was watching Schindler’s List in my 8th grade History class. I put together a list of statements about the Jewish condition then that resonated to the Palestinian condition today:

"The Jewish quarter is separated from the rest of the city by walled-in streets, windows, doors and empty lots, fire and partition walls having been incorporated. The walls are 3 meters high (The West Bank wall is 6-8 meters high" B’tselem); another meter is added by a parapet of barbed wire. Furthermore, surveillance is provided by police patrols on horseback and in motor vehicles."

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"An internal Jewish police force was created which maintained ‘law and order’ and squelched Jewish resistance in the interest of, and at no expense to, the occupation forces."

"Following the occupation of Warsaw the German authorities had created a blatantly inequitable exchange system between the ghetto and the outside world. In return for the ruthless expropriation of Jewish finances, services and goods, this cunning mechanism provided only for grotesquely inadequate food supplies; its aim was the slow starvation of the ghetto"

"Jewish survival increasingly hinged on one dangerous recourse: smuggling…Smuggling was a dangerous business, pursued by courageous men constantly risking their lives."

"The Gestapo, SS and regular German troops made frequent forays into the ghetto, indiscriminately harassing, plundering, interrogating, arresting, beating and shooting the population. Even when they refrained from such incursions, they still were busy sealing off and starving the ghetto."

"The semblance of such a (autonomous communal) structure did exist, except that it was far from autonomous, primarily serving to camouflage the true intentions of the Nazis."

"…a tendency to blame the Jews for moral shortcomings which — if they existed at all — were ultimately the product of German repression."

To say that Israelis are "doing the same thing to Palestinians which was done to them" by the Nazis isn’t true. You can’t compare 2/3 of European Jews to the number of Palestinian deaths.

But it’s not about body count comparisons. It’s about dehumanization. The dehumanization is what is truly disturbing, the utter dehumanization both Nazi Germany and Israel have taken part in. Their victims are simply less than human, and they deserve to die in the street.

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The Warsaw Ghetto in Photographs

When I was confronted with utter Jewish vulnerability, it made me wonder what happened to these people between their liberation and the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948.

The tables turned.

Jews are now the ones segregating "the other" into ghettoes, imprisoning them inside huge concrete walls.

Jews are now the ones who capture land through aggressive war.

Jews are now the ones who lavish praise on the ghetto elite (Palestinian Authority and their Security Forces).

Jews are now the ones racially classifying “the other” by law.

Jews are now the ones banning intermarriage to maintain the “purity” of their “race”.

Jews are now the ones forcing "the other" to carry identifying symbols.

Jews are now the ones inciting pogroms on "the other".

Jews are now the ones enacting specific laws governing social activities with "the other".

Jews are now the ones expropriating "the other’s" land and property.

Jews are now the ones banning books from "the other’s" schools.

Jews are now the ones trying to destroy another peoples’ way of life.

This is the tragedy of Zionism.

After reading about the history of the Warsaw Ghetto, I found myself feeling sorry for Jewish people. What a concept.

Due to Israel’s actions, I’ve never known a world where Jews were David not Goliath.

For the obvious reasons, I constantly felt guilty during my visit to Israel last December. At times, I felt a sort of Jewish pride and identification.

I’m not gonna lie; sometimes it felt good. But guilt would snap me back to reality.

I think I like learning about the Holocaust so much because I get to connect to my Jewish identity, whatever that may be, without feeling guilty.

The last time I felt this guilt free Jewish connection, was during a long conversation I had with Stefanie Fox of Jewish Voice for Peace.

What was done in the Holocaust is much worse in scale than what’s being done to the Palestinians. It’s not the same.

But, comparing the Holocaust to Israeli treatment of Palestinians doesn’t take anything away from the Jewish suffering of the Holocaust.  In fact, it does something better.

It de-Zionizes the Holocaust, and lets it stand on its own. Why can’t Holocaust curiculum be introduced into Palestinian schools? Why can’t Holocaust curiculum be introduced into American schools for God’s sake?

Why can’t the "Museum of Tolerance" on Mamilla cemetery be scrapped, and instead launch a Holocaust museum in the Old City of Jerusalem next to a Nakba Memorial with the ribbon cutting being done by Hedy Epstein and Ghada Karmi?

A shared monument of tragedy– I can’t think of a better way to launch a bi-national state for all its citizens.

287 Responses

  1. Shmuel
    May 7, 2010, 5:05 pm

    I think I like learning about the Holocaust so much because I get to connect to my Jewish identity, whatever that may be, without feeling guilty.

    There are many more options than Zionism or Holocaust, perpetrator or victim. My own Jewish identity is guilt-free and is defined neither by the Holocaust (although my family was deeply affected by it), nor by Zionism (although I was raised in Israel).

    • zamaaz
      May 7, 2010, 8:07 pm

      [The tables turned.
      Jews are now the ones segregating "the other" into ghettoes, imprisoning them inside huge concrete walls.
      Jews are now the ones who capture land through aggressive war.
      Jews are now the ones who lavish praise on the ghetto elite (Palestinian Authority and their Security Forces).
      Jews are now the ones racially classifying “the other” by law.
      Jews are now the ones banning intermarriage to maintain the “purity” of their “race”.
      Jews are now the ones forcing "the other" to carry identifying symbols.
      Jews are now the ones inciting pogroms on "the other".
      Jews are now the ones enacting specific laws governing social activities with "the other".
      Jews are now the ones expropriating "the other's" land and property.
      Jews are now the ones banning books from "the other's" schools.
      Jews are now the ones trying to destroy another peoples' way of life.]

      Yes the Table turned – in accordance to which side of justice a person at:

      In the holocaust, the genocide committed by the Nazis were primarily based on prejudice against the Jews, between 1914 to 1936 (which year progroms (public or mob attacks against the Jews) started as early as this) there was no highlighted events that Jews:

      a) resisted to recognize Germany as a independent state or nation [Palestine refused to recognize Israel]
      b) widely agitated nor struggled to build an entire nation to overtake Germany [Palestinians (Gaza under Hamas) have recognized among themselves the struggle for such]
      c) Acted to attack Germans on continued basis [Palestinians has made 1,310 rocket attacks against Israel from Jan-Dec 2008 (link to huffingtonpost.com)]

      Thus, the aggression against the Jews were mainly acts of racial persecution. On the other hand ;

      a) the Gaza conflict is clear at the outset is a war of attrition…And as recognized form of resolve among independent states as acts for self preservation, security, and consolidation of covered or captured territories after or ‘within’ a state of war, of which above mentioned actions are deemed eventual realities of conflict…These issues are only resolved permanently if there is no more conflict between two peoples…
      b) The distinction of peoples are expected results when the other party is not citizens, nor covered by the provisions of rights of citizens provided under the same constitution. These situations happen like what the world has experienced during the WW1 and WW2, or even during ancient times… These are actually the TRAGEDIES of war and conquest, when two peoples were in a ‘virtual’ state of war (or continued conflict). [We can never demand other countries in a state of war to have the ‘natural basis’ to do this, and Israel cannot! ]
      c) Banning of information that are expected (if not intentionally designed) to trigger and inflame racial antagomism is a natural act to avoid conflict. And every state has the mandate to do that. No country on Earth will allow publishing potential subversive documents in all circumstances. [We can never demand other countries in a state of war to have the ‘natural basis’ to do this, and Israel cannot!]
      d) Expropriating land and property within the bound of national territory is a natural right of very state on Earth as every square inch of land is conventionally recognized as part of national domain. However. In terms of legal rights, the ownership over the land of the parties involved must first be established legally whether they have recognized land titles or not. Even so, in a state of war (in World Wars experiences) such right are automatically rendered void as such, as the former state that issued said land rights ceased to exist. Sad to say these are the results of previous Isreael-Arab wars 1967, and 1973…

      Therefore no one on this Earth has ever the right to fault Israel, nor the Zionists, only against history….

      • zamaaz
        May 7, 2010, 8:21 pm

        Look, what did the British do during their middle east conquest…They even enjoyed tinkering with like toys the regional territories, national identities, and cultures among Arabs, and Iraqis… Even a major part of the original Arab tribes (the ancient tribes of Ishmaelites, Arabians, Idumeans, Horites, and Edomites (1Kings 10:15) became the hereditary property of the House of Saud… Who made kings among these peoples?

        I also suspect, this outstanding anti-semitic feeling of many prominent British liberals could the offshoot of then national subconscious desire for ‘atonement’ before the middle east nations…

        • zamaaz
          May 7, 2010, 8:25 pm

          Nevertheless, history has been made, and we, including the Brits, must respect whatever the outcomes of their ‘sinful’ historic acts… Let us leave the Saudians at peace, and the rest of the Arabs among themselves…

        • Chaos4700
          May 7, 2010, 8:26 pm

          Until Israel needs more lebensraum from the neighbors, at any rate, huh.

        • Shingo
          May 7, 2010, 8:27 pm

          Your posts are completely incoherent Zamaaz.

          Do yourself a favor and put down your Bible znd pick up a book on the English language.

          I hope they allow English 101 in the cult compound you reside in.

          Try andget your head around basic grammar before trying to participate on political blogs. No one will bother to try and decipher your delusional diatribes until you can master basic writing skills.

        • yonira
          May 7, 2010, 8:29 pm

          your idea of lebensraum is highly inaccurate, Since 1981 the amount of land controlled by Israel has diminished significantly.

        • Chaos4700
          May 7, 2010, 8:34 pm

          True or false, yonira, Israel has taken land in excess of the UN partition?

        • Les
          May 7, 2010, 9:32 pm

          Do you accept that ending the settlements in Gaza and turning it into a free fire zone, a la Operation Cast Lead, and starving out the Gazans is ceding control?

          Did the Nazis give up control when they ceded the Warsaw Ghetto to the Jews?

          Why oh why does such beneficence go unrecognized?

        • Shingo
          May 7, 2010, 9:48 pm

          “Since 1981 the amount of land controlled by Israel has diminished significant”

          Based on what evidence?

          The map of Palestine showing Israeli controlled territory hasn’t shrunk since 1981.

        • yonira
          May 7, 2010, 9:56 pm

          how big was the sinai shingo? how bout southern lebanon?

          link to mideastweb.org

        • Shingo
          May 7, 2010, 10:04 pm

          “how big was the sinai shingo? how bout southern lebanon?”

          Israel occupied Southern Lebanon and was kicked out, so it hardly controlled it.

          It’s true that Israel held the Sinai for about 10 years, but that hardly proves that Israeli expansionism hasn’t continued since and please, don’t pretend that Israel does not control Gaza.

        • Richard Parker
          May 7, 2010, 10:19 pm

          Sinai wasn’t ‘given up’. It reverted to Egypt from Israel in return for a highly valued peace treaty, which Israel hoped would would enable them to make ‘peace’ with other Arab countries at the time.

          There’s an old Arab story about Kissinger’s ‘shuttle diplomacy’ during the Suez negotiations. At a critical point, Anwar Sadat asked his wife (a very beautiful woman) to undertake a secret mission to Israel and meet Moshe Dayan, to discuss critical points. Meanwhile Sadat and Kissinger would spend the weekend at Sadat’s winter home in Aswan.

          Which she did, but went a little too far. She asked her imam for advice, and he told her to go and wash her private parts in the river Nile, to cleanse herself of sin, and gain absolution.

          As she was doing so, the next morning, she turned and saw her husband desperately washing his backside.

        • Sumud
          May 7, 2010, 10:38 pm

          RP thanks [NOT] for making me think of Kissinger sperm.

        • annie
          May 8, 2010, 1:34 am

          lol, go shingo. poor joseph is probably scratching his head over
          z man’s extraordinary attempts at brainwashing.

        • Joseph Glatzer
          May 10, 2010, 8:16 pm

          lol I’m scratching my head over several extraordinary attempts on these comments.

      • traintosiberia
        May 8, 2010, 10:48 am

        Same vapid repitition! same abused juxtapostion of sacttered facts and events to support of party line and group menatlity.

        Palestine was not for the persecuted German Jews .Ways and means are and were not valid by any method of imagination or legality that have been employed to sanitize the ferocity inflicted on Palestine the ideas that have been employed to get the German Jews there or the ideas that grew out in the temple of Herzl or Weizmann or Ben Guiron or Sliver or Brandeis or the Jews in Truman adminsitartion or in the agitprop employed in the streets of Madsion square to ramp up support for atrocities against Palestinian . Neither were the menas of obtaining arms from US from 1940s to Jews terrorists in Palestine including B 27 bombers in 1948. ( to do that someone has to bypass a lot of checkpoints !)
        Having said that one question arises why Hitler managed to get to the postiton where he got. Can same happen in another country where Jews enjoy prosperity ,safety,power ,and privilege?
        Was Balfour decalration was quid pro quo for Britain with US coming to war aginst Germany in ww1?
        Didn’t Jews power in Britain convinced Britan that an independent israel would safeguard its interest in India and Singapore and in Indian ocean?
        Was Shamir bluffing Hitler when he promised to Hitler of safeguarding German interest and values ( by building similar racist nation ) in Arab in exchange for supports? Didn’t the Jews zionist satrt collaborating with Germany instead of fightingthe oppressor?

        The only glimmer of hope for Israel is to start thinking that the power and determination in its gene is also present in all oppressed people as are the cry for justice. The problem Israel faces is not going to come from a viable Palestine state but from losing the ambience and atmosphere of abnormality and militacny .That would rob Israel of billions it gets from US, of opportunitites deprive it of opporotunities of spying the trade and business secret from Germany/Denmark/UK/USA, of profiteering from illegal export advantage to US and getting freebies like Dolphin subamrine from Germany.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 10:06 am

          Traintosiberia, you’re English is not too good, but many of here realize you make accurate historical points. Thanks.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 9, 2010, 10:11 am

          interesting additions to the received/conventional wisdom, Traintosiberia. thanks.

  2. Citizen
    May 7, 2010, 5:05 pm

    RE: “Why can’t Holocaust curiculum be introduced into Palestinian schools? Why can’t Holocaust curiculum be introduced into American schools for God’s sake?”

    Israel needs to introduce Nakba curiculum into Isaeli schools. The US needs to do so too. It introduced Holocast curiculum into US public schools long ago. So I don’t understand Mr Glatzer’s experience. What US schools did he attend?

    • Psychopathic god
      May 7, 2010, 6:41 pm

      are we supposed to celebrate this kid? why?

      We need to take holocaust studies OUT of US schools, and if Jews were one/tenth as smart as they like to think they are, they would realize the damage they are doing to themselves by their adoration of holocaust, by their perpetuation of victimhood.

      Hear this and hear it well, Joseph Glatzer: we don’t give a flying fart about your holocaust. We didn’t do it.

      If you really want to accomplish something with your exhumation of holocaust cadavers, try this exercise: figure out what Jews did that so enraged Germans that Germans turned into monsters.

      Maybe then you will be able to speculate on what is turning Jewish zionists into monsters today.
      But so far, your vaunted research project is an exercise in self-adulation.

      You recite conflicting emotions on visiting Israel, little Glatzer: guilt and pride. I suggest you taste the spicy thrill of being the victimizer. You have to repeat, “It was worse for the Jews,” as if there is some aristocracy of suffering and the ‘worseness’ you ascribe to Jews with whom you identify anoints you as among the aristocratic.

      You are taking baby steps along the same path of psychopathology that Israel has designed for most of its Jewish Israeli citizens, little Glatzer: you are wrapping identity as a human being in identity as a Jew with identity as a holocaust aristocrat.

      I say, CLOSE the holocaust museum at America’s front door; take holocaust studies OUT of US schools: you may be celebrating your dabble in holocaust identity psychopathology as part of your jewish identity, young Glatzer, but most American school children are not jewish, and do not need to be injected with victimhood to establish a sense of identity. What in the world would make you think the rest of the human race that is not jewish cares two figs about exploring your jewish victim identity?

      Not impressed.
      Next?

      • yonira
        May 7, 2010, 6:46 pm

        I saw this post coming from a mile away.

        • yonira
          May 7, 2010, 6:49 pm

          figure out what Jews did that so enraged Germans that Germans turned into monsters.

          That is totally OK to say here on Mondolies, but the questioning hatred of Islam by the majority of the world, is off limits.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 7, 2010, 7:17 pm

          trying to parse that sentence: “but the questioning hatred of Islam by the majority of the world, is off limits.”

          are you saying it is “off limits” to question why the “majority of the world” hates Islam?

          check out “Reel Bad Arabs.” You’ll find that no one seems to have felt restrained from inciting hatred of Arabs.
          If you need a more concentrated version of incitement to hate Islam, read the first chapter of Mike Evans’ “The Final Move Beyond Iraq: The Final Solution While the World Sleeps” (the book cover was only 9″ wide; Evans had to excise “fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here they hate us for our freedom they can’t stand democracy.”)

        • aparisian
          May 7, 2010, 7:23 pm

          yonira, are you trying to say here that Zionists are in war with Islam thats why they act like Nazis?

        • Taxi
          May 7, 2010, 7:39 pm

          yonira, just out of curiousity:
          How do you explain German Aryan hatred towards German jews?

          How was it explained to you as a child and have you done your own investigations into this?

        • yonira
          May 7, 2010, 7:50 pm

          Good question Taxi. what do you think? I don’t know i guess from what I’ve researched much of it stems from Germany’s loss off WWI and blaming that on Jewish subterfuge.

          Much of it I equate w/ historical conspiracy theories which culminated w/ the protocols. I don’t know, perhaps there were jews in society which took advantage of germany’s misfortune.

        • Taxi
          May 7, 2010, 11:34 pm

          yonira,
          So you don’t know the exact reasons why the German aryans hated the German jews? Ever asked a German pacifist this question? Ever read European and American newspaper articles about the goings on in Germany written say between 1933 and 1838? You know before the ‘history’ of the period was written by after-the-fact historians. 1933-1938 when events were still unfolding raw and bespectacled journalists were the only recorders of human strife and protest. Plenty of archives on the net to choose from.

          I gotta say yonira, it boggles my mind and it makes me worry for you that you don’t have a clear answer to my question.

          Surely you’ve thought long and hard about it, no?

        • yonira
          May 7, 2010, 11:48 pm

          so are you blaming it on those Jews taxi?

        • Chaos4700
          May 7, 2010, 11:57 pm

          Why should he, Taxi? Getting a serious answer to that question makes it harder for him to attach the anti-Semite label to people. I mean, if he can always frame “Jewish” activity (Zionist only as far as yonira’s context extends) as blameless, then anything anyone does to work at cross purposes becomes anti-Semitism.

          Not, you know, that Nazism wasn’t flagrant anti-Semitism at its deadliest, but as you say, the selection of the Jewish minority wasn’t altogether arbitrary. Kind of like how the racism against Arabs in the US isn’t altogether arbitrary, despite being ugly, unfair and motivated by a cynical, immoral agenda.

          Consider it the Abe Foxman stratagem, as an adjunct to Goering’s philosophy.

        • Chaos4700
          May 7, 2010, 11:58 pm

          See what I mean, Taxi? Were that he blamed the Jews for the Holocaust the way yonira blames the Palestinians for the Nakba, then at least no one could accuse him of being a hypocrite and a racist.

        • yonira
          May 8, 2010, 12:16 am

          that was more uncomprehendable than normal Chaos. not sure what you were trying to say.

          Taxi, explain the hatred of Jews to me between 33-39. Mein Kampf was written before that time period, Hitler already had those ideas ingrained in him, i don’t get your time line.

        • Chaos4700
          May 8, 2010, 12:28 am

          “Uncomprehendable?” You didn’t, per chance, mean incomprehensible, did you?

          How’s that for irony.

        • Taxi
          May 8, 2010, 8:09 am

          yonira,

          Why is it that more words are spent on how Hitler did it and not why?

        • Shingo
          May 8, 2010, 8:18 am

          With all due respects Taxi, even if we were to find out why, it could never in this word be any justification for what he did.

        • Taxi
          May 8, 2010, 8:58 am

          Of course there’s NEVER a justification, Shingo. But how else is the world jewish community going to positively ‘transcend’ the holacaust and it’s profound damages if after some sixty plus years, they collectively don’t seem to understand why things happened the way they did – having been focused soley on the death-cult-victimhood all this time.

          It’s unsettling that the question of ‘why’ isn’t addressed and explored in the name of healing both jew and goy.

        • Shingo
          May 8, 2010, 9:09 am

          That might be true in other cirsumstances, and you’re welcome to try to explore those avenues, but I cannot fathom a “why” that would ever be satisfactory or remotely adequate.

          I wouldn’t suggest there is anything wrogn with you for looking into it however, but personally speaking, I can’t imagine being inside the mind of someone who did what he did, anymore than I can imagine babies lying next to their dead mothers after an Israeli attack or children being cooked from the inside while Israel delayes or blocks the arrical of Red Cross relief workers.

        • Taxi
          May 8, 2010, 9:49 am

          Shingo: “That might be true in other cirsumstances…”

          I don’t see why the holacaust should be untouched by our studies of the human condition.

          My inquiry is not to ‘go into’ the devil’s mind to dissect it layer by layer (yikes, who the hell needs that?!) – rather my inquiry is regarding the holocaust’s actual ’causes’. As you know, Shingo, ’cause-and-effect’ is a universal law that applies to everything under the sun.

          The idea is to stop future holocausts of any ethnicity by understanding and learning to recognize with immediacy the ‘conditions and atmospheres’ that breed, promote and over time lead to such diabolical events. If we’re clear on the why’s and conditions that enable holocausts, we just might be able to ‘nip them in the bud’, if you’ll forgive my horticultural example.

          I refer to this as practicing ‘preventative’ action, instead of ‘deffensive/offensive action.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 10:11 am

          “yonira May 7, 2010 at 6:49 pm
          figure out what Jews did that so enraged Germans that Germans turned into monsters.

          That is totally OK to say here on Mondolies, but the questioning hatred of Islam by the majority of the world, is off limits.”

          Gee, I think that, unless you believe that all actions and opinions are caused by mental disease, the cause and effect analysis of history is a
          good thing.

        • Julian
          May 9, 2010, 10:40 am

          aparisian, are you trying to say the French are at war with Islam with their anti Hijab laws or is it because large sections of France have been turned over to Arab gangs.

        • Chaos4700
          May 9, 2010, 10:58 am

          That’s the problem with neocons. The only see in black and white.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 11:09 am

          Yonira, Hitler himself said in Mein Kampf that he originally had the notion that Jews were just another people who had their own religion, and that he favored tolerance of same. What he then said in Mein Kamp was that he figured out Jews were more a warring ethnic tribe with all others since antiquity. He then sought to
          bring a tribal opponent against this tribe. Why wouldn’t he? The current question remains, why would a Palestinian recoginize Israel as Israel defines itself, and as Israel implements itself? And the question for Americans, is, what will you do to implement your own stated values?

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 11:25 am

          Taxi, you’re right it is unsettling that the “Why” is not really addressed except by saying anti-semitism is a mental disease.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 11:28 am

          Julian, please look at the difference between rights afforded to all French citizens, and those afforded to non-Jewish Israeli citizens.
          Thanks.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 12:00 pm

          I agree, Julian, if jews can wear little saucer hats, arabs should be able to wear full faced masks. Happy?

      • yonira
        May 7, 2010, 6:51 pm

        Zionists the world around applaud you for your hatred of Jews psycho, it gave them Israel and assures Israel’s existence for a long time to come.

        Are you blaming all of WWII on the Jews here or just the war in Europe?

        • Psychopathic god
          May 7, 2010, 7:07 pm

          Only god is an uncaused cause, yonira.
          I am saying what I have said before: if people really mean “never again” when they say never again, then they will be eager to find out, with accurate scholarship, “what drove a culture mad; what huge imago made a psychopathic god.”

          Your immediate resort to the extreme/generalization indicates that you are among those who will tolerate telling only one side of the story, solving only one side of the equation: to suggest that there is another side of the story is to incur the wrath you so rapidly heaped. Predictable.

          Tell me, yoni, who “hates” jews more, someone who demands that jews grow up and form integrated characters and personalities, or someone who remains wrapped in an infantile cocoon of victimhood, so thoroughy brutalized that you are unfazed even as your citizen soldiers spray pepper spray from 1″ away into the forced-open eyes of a manacled young person, decapitate babies; bulldoze teenagers then laugh at her martyrdom?

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 10:16 am

          RE:
          “yonira May 7, 2010 at 6:51 pm
          Zionists the world around applaud you for your hatred of Jews psycho, it gave them Israel and assures Israel’s existence for a long time to come.

          Are you blaming all of WWII on the Jews here or just the war in Europe?”

          I see the Palestinians really do have a reason to hope.

      • Donald
        May 7, 2010, 7:11 pm

        Yeah, that was pretty sick. In fact, it’s report abuse time. Though I’m also not sure what you mean by “questioning hatred of Islam by the majority of the world”. It’s not written very clearly, but it sounds as bad as psycho’s comment.

        The problem that you are always going to have with a blog on the I/P conflict is that it’s going to attract some real, honest to goodness anti-semites, people who are interested in this topic for the wrong reasons.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 7, 2010, 7:21 pm

          by all means report abuse, Donald. words are dangerous things.

          better to drive a bulldozer over somebody’s 50-year old olive trees than express in no uncertain terms that some are behaving in a brutish fashion.

          if I had been a Jew in Germany I would have totally restrained myself from expressing the vilest epithets I could imagine at German soldiers.

        • aparisian
          May 7, 2010, 7:25 pm

          Donald, i strongly disagree with Psychopathic god but i still believe that freedom of expression is important, can’t see why these issues are taboos?

        • Donald
          May 7, 2010, 7:32 pm

          “by all means report abuse, Donald.”

          I just did. Thanks for the encouragement.

          There are Arabs fighting for Palestinian rights who can’t stand anti-semites and don’t want them associated with their movement. As’ad AbuKhalil, for one. I also see them at Richard Silverstein’s blog, proud anti-Zionists who despise the sort of crap you spout. I know that on the internet there’s a lot of stupid macho posturing, but in the real world people who care about human rights don’t talk in sneering tones about the murder of 5-6 million people.

        • Donald
          May 7, 2010, 7:38 pm

          “i still believe that freedom of expression is important”

          I don’t think people should be jailed for expressing their opinions, but it’s up to Phil to decide who and what he will have posted on his blog. I don’t see any value at all in psycho’s post, except that it lets us know part of what motivates him. Now if the comment section here became known as a place that was friendly to psycho’s POV, it would be the best possible way to discredit what Phil is trying to do. I’m thinking of numerous people I know in real life who aren’t obsessed with the I/P conflict the way we are here. If they came to this blog and saw a lot of comments like his, they wouldn’t stick around very long.

        • yonira
          May 7, 2010, 7:39 pm

          emotions I guess Donald, that was one of the most disgusting comments I read, I was trying to rationalize it in my head I guess. My attempt at rationalization was to say something equally as irrational which in retrospect was the wrong idea.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 7, 2010, 8:03 pm

          I truly don’t get it.
          It’s okay for IDF to destroy the homes and lands and eyes and lives and souls of Palestinian people, not 60 years ago but yesterday, but it’s NOT okay to get so angry at the brutality of those acts that I scream my head off, STOP IT.

          Just STOP IT.

          yonira, what a self-satisfied little comment you made below, “woo woo woo I was just trying to rationalize….so upset…my my my” You have posted dozens of comments here with the deliberate intent to enrage and distract. How do you like it when the tables are turned? zionists NEED to understand that people are ANGRY with them! Jews need to understand that those people who are angry with zionists CANNOT MAKE THE DISTINCTION between zionists and Jews; that puts you all at peril.

          What you refuse to recognize is that I am NOT from that soon-to-explode mob; I’m the canary: I’m sane and sober and in control of my emotions. If I were not in control of what I feel and think and do, and if I understood the things that I have come to understand from Phil’s blog, I would be out-McVeighing Tim.

          You appear to be blissfully unaware of the toll it takes on a person’s life to be aware of the enormous crime that is taking place and to be torn between trying to do something to make it stop, and wishing with all your powers that you could have a normal life, working in your shop, tilling your soil, loving your friends. To be aware that somewhere, your tax dollars are supporting a soldier who will destroy a child or kick a woman is a heavy, heavy burden. To know that to talk about these crimes against humanity to even your spouse, much less your friends or neighbors is to risk being branded an antisemite. What do you do? What do you do with that knowledge, those pictures of man’s inhumanity to man that reside in your head, that you dare not let out of your head? The only defense I know is to so thoroughly dilute that epithet that it is rendered meaningless. Avigail Abarbenal has explained that Jewish Israelis relieve their psychic pressures by contemplating war, planning war, waging war. I relieve the pressure by waging war on the sick psychology of zionism. Your howls of outrage at my antisemitism suggest to me that an arrow has hit a tender target. good; I’ve got your attention. think about; make some changes.

          The huge, huge mistake Jews make is thinking that silencing the rage that people feel will make it go away; it does NOT make it go away, it merely pressurizes it.

        • Chu
          May 7, 2010, 10:44 pm

          Donald, what was pretty sick. Can you elaborate what was wrong?

        • David Samel
          May 7, 2010, 11:54 pm

          As usual, I find myself in agreement with Donald. Psycho’s single sentence about the Jews provoking the Holocaust (and that is not an unfair paraphrase) really cannot be explained as a heated reaction. It is simply inexcusable.

          I’m not surprised that yonira jumped all over it in glee. And psycho’s defense is awfully lame: “It’s okay for IDF to destroy the homes and lands and eyes and lives and souls of Palestinian people, not 60 years ago but yesterday, but it’s NOT okay to get so angry at the brutality of those acts that I scream my head off, STOP IT.” PG, neither of your clauses is true. For many of us, the IDF’s destruction of Palestinian lives is not OK – we’re as upset about it as you are. And we’re not upset about you getting angry at the brutality of those acts that you scream “STOP IT.” You know what you said that was offensive, and that wasn’t it.

          That being said, the sentiments expressed by yonira and even more explicitly by eee and others are far more dangerous than PG’s. There is no danger that the notion that the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves by turning the Germans into monsters will catch on. And the Holocaust ended 65 years ago and the bad guys were defeated. The only effect of that statement is to embarrass the person who said it. On the other hand, defenders of Israeli atrocities are helping to perpetuate an ongoing human rights disaster. They are insisting on Israel’s right to promote the rights of the worldwide Jewish community over indigenous Palestinians.

        • David Samel
          May 8, 2010, 12:03 am

          Thinking about this a little more, there actually is a striking similarity between PG’s outburst and traditional hasbara lines that have been uttered ad nauseum by yonira and others. It is a fundamental hasbara principle on a macro and micro level that the Palestinians have brought their suffering upon themselves. To me, it is absolutely clear that they have been targeted simply because they were unfortunate enough to be born in land desired for the Jewish State. Taking the position that they brought this disaster upon themselves by provoking the Jews to anger is no less offensive than what PG said, and as I said before, far more dangerous because that line is widely accepted discourse.

        • zamaaz
          May 8, 2010, 12:59 am

          Good! Samel… Yes, I agree, your position hovers closiest next to what is ‘perceived’ realities… go forward… expound more your ideas…

        • aparisian
          May 8, 2010, 3:33 am

          I don’t think people should be jailed for expressing their opinions,

          You are trying to silence the other opinion Donald just think about it.

          If they came to this blog and saw a lot of comments like his…

          People who come here should read comments like psycho and our disagreement with his comment, not just some mind selected ideas. I would love to report you Donald as well for trying to silence the others opinions. LOL

        • aparisian
          May 8, 2010, 3:34 am

          yonira, you are a troll. Get out of this discussion, its not for you.

        • Donald
          May 8, 2010, 6:17 am

          “You are trying to silence the other opinion Donald just think about it.”

          Yes, I am trying to silence the other opinion at this blog–it requires no great amount of thinking for me to realize this, because it is what I had in mind. There are times when I think this blog would be improved with no comment section at all, though only on really bad days.

          “People who come here should read comments like psycho and our disagreement with his comment, not just some mind selected ideas.”

          What people will see if they come to this blog is typical internet tribalism. They’ll see people like Witty getting ripped to shreds by the regulars, which as one of the shredders I support, though we can go overboard and spend too much time on that activity. They’ll also see the occasional utterly vicious anti-semitic remark and much less shredding and even some people not seeing what was so disgusting. Now the reason for that is mainly psychological, I think, not actual sympathy for anti-semitism. Psycho is very critical of Zionism, as are most of us and so he is seen as being on “our side”. Plus we all know that the charge of anti-semitism is commonly leveled at anti-Zionists. (Harold Bloom labels the entire English intelligentsia anti-semitic in the NYT Book Review section today for precisely that reason.) But anyway, it’s natural, I suppose, for people here to become less quick to jump on real anti-semitism when it appears. It’s natural, but it’s wrong and a bad mistake.

          Also, hate speech shouldn’t be outlawed, but blogs are like someone’s home and Phil can set the rules he wants. And if you allow hate speech, haters gradually start flocking in. The Angry Arab blog used to have a comment section and it was a total piece of shit because of that.

          ” I would love to report you Donald as well for trying to silence the others opinions. ”

          I would gladly ban myself if I could take several others around here with me. Call it a suicide banning.

        • Donald
          May 8, 2010, 6:24 am

          “And if you allow hate speech, haters gradually start flocking in. The Angry Arab blog used to have a comment section and it was a total piece of shit because of that.”

          To be clear, As’ad AbuKhalil isn’t a hater himself, but he didn’t police the comment section at all, AFAIK. So it became like some sections of usenet–a vast wasteland of screaming morons.

        • aparisian
          May 8, 2010, 6:49 am

          Donald,
          Part of my family are Jews who suffered from the Nazi cruelty, but that when i was young i usually asked myself the same question asked by Psy god so i can’t understand whats wrong with that? he was not calling jews any names, his argument was not Jews are responsible for what happened but why it happened.

          Donald i think the angry Arabs as you call them have their own reasons to hate Zionists who call them Jews, i totally understand this.

        • Donald
          May 8, 2010, 7:16 am

          “i think the angry Arabs as you call them ”

          I don’t call “them” that. I was referring to a blog–

          link to angryarab.blogspot.com

          The host of the blog is extremely anti-Zionist, but has zero tolerance for anti-semites. It’s a viewpoint I’ve seen among other Arabs and it’d be nice if people would adopt it here. His comment section was taken over by anti-semites and anti-Arab racists.

          As for what psycho meant, a child could ask “why did the Holocaust happen? Did the Jews do something wrong?” but when it comes from an adult it has an altogether different flavor.
          There might be “reasons” why Germans hated Jews, but there’s no possible thing that could have been done by “the Jews” that could explain in any way whatsoever what happened in the 30′s and 40′s. And anyway, psycho went well beyond that with his sneering contempt for any remembrance of the Holocaust. Yes, it is used in nasty ways to justify Israeli atrocities. That’s no reason to be an insensitive creep.

          Anyway, screw this. If you want to link anti-Zionism with nauseating comments about the Holocaust, that’s your decision.

        • thankgodimatheist
          May 8, 2010, 7:32 am

          Donald
          Since you seem to be familiar with the Angry Arab blog you sure do remember the hate speech was mainly but not exclusively from the zionist trolls who used to flock in droves. For someone like myself with no prior experience of blogs it was staggering to see the level of unbridled hate poured at the Arabs, invariably called sand monkeys, Paleos and cockroaches to be gassed, rats etc..It was there and then that I became accustomed to all the hasbara trash, talking points, arguments and all sorts of tricks like the adoption of Arabic pseudos or the diversion and deflection techniques that we see here practiced by the likes of eee and julian, though in milder version. For every anti-Semite in the crowd one could count at least five of the vilest, meanest and the most abject zionist trolls that I ever seen.

        • David Samel
          May 8, 2010, 8:42 am

          TGIA, what do you conclude from that? Don’t you think that mean, vile expressions of anti-Arab hate are likely to turn off reasonable people who are tuning in but don’t know much about the conflict? I think the same is true of psycho’s truly outrageous line. There are so many who think that anti-Zionism is a thin veneer for anti-Semitism, and although that is not true for 99% of us, a comment like psycho’s really hurts us all. That’s why yonira claims to have seen this coming a mile away.

          I’m not as regular a comment-reader as some, and I think this is a rather anomalous statement by someone who often makes good points. But I also think it is so offensive that it’s hard to pass off as a single intemperate remark. yonira is already misinterpreting it as Jews causing WWII, but suggesting that Jewish behavior provoked the Holocaust is quite bad enough.

          Finally, Donald is not banning anyone. He may be trying to, but it’s not his call. There is nothing inherently wrong with bringing it to Phil’s attention. I know he hates shit like that, and it’s his blog and his decision.

        • thankgodimatheist
          May 8, 2010, 9:21 am

          David
          I absolutely agree and I see no problems in calling out on someone if he/she occasionally or regularly for that matter, crosses the line. But that was not what my comment was addressing, rather the part which was in relation to the Angry Arab blog where hate speech was abundant from both side but in a far bigger proportion from the Zionist side. I just thought that Donald might have forgotten that detail. That was not to say that I was dismissing Donald’s concern about P.G post. I think he will understand that.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 8, 2010, 9:23 am

          Let’s set the tone: here’s my purpose, goal, inspiration, motivation:

          SEPTEMBER 1, 1939
          by W.H. Auden

          Accurate scholarship can
          Unearth the whole offence
          From Luther until now
          That has driven a culture mad,
          Find what occurred at Linz, [at Deir Yassin, at Sabra and Shatila, at Qana…]
          What huge imago made
          A psychopathic god:
          I and the public know
          What all schoolchildren learn,
          Those to whom evil is done
          Do evil in return.

          (notice the line at the center of the stanza)

          Here’s my statement:

          figure out what Jews did that so enraged Germans that Germans turned into monsters.

          Here’s David Samel’s paraphrase:

          Psycho’s single sentence about the Jews provoking the Holocaust (and that is not an unfair paraphrase) really cannot be explained as a heated reaction. It is simply inexcusable.

          David, you excised about 50 years of history pregnant in MY statement and went immediately to the narrative that validates your pov.
          The poet wrote: You don’t have to be a Nobel laureate to know that if someone pisses you off you react angrily (not an unfair paraphrase):

          I and the public know
          What all schoolchildren learn,
          Those to whom evil is done
          Do evil in return.

          If you want to interrupt that cycle (“Never again,”) you better figure out what sets it in motion, and work to eliminate that behavior.

          I maintain that it is critically important to understand what events, behaviors, stresses turned Germans into monsters: if for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, what were the actions that set events in motion that resulted in such a horrible reaction.

          You appear to prefer Goldhagen’s thesis, that monstrosity was inherent in the German psyche; that the laws of physics were suspended: NO action took place that caused an equal and opposite reaction, the reaction was caused “magically.”

          Even if you do wish to accept that thesis, I submit that it fails to provide sufficient information for fair minded people to attempt to ensure that the same thing will “never again” occur.

          We know how important it is to apply the difficult effort of “accurate scholarship” — ruthlessly objective truth-telling — to the task of finding out “what drove a culture mad” so that we can prevent it happening in the future.

          You argue (against yourself, imo) that a similar “hasbara” is applied to Palestinians, that they cause their own misery. You wrote:

          “it is absolutely clear that they have been targeted simply because they were unfortunate enough to be born in land desired for the Jewish State.

          It’s telling that you twist in the wrong direction (your ‘scholarship’ is ‘inaccurate:’) you do NOT argue that actions of Israelis are pissing off Palestinians and incenting them to react, violently at time, you argue that the hasbara is wrong. You soft-pedal the causality and shift the burden from the actor — zionists, to the acted upon — Palestinians, who were “unfortunate.” It’s all very passive, very magical. You let zionism off the hook for stealing what they had no right to steal, and embue the ‘inaccuracy’ with nobility by applying the rhetorical bandaid, “unfortunate.”

          Surely you know of Izzeldin Abu Laish, the Palestinian doctor and peace activist whose daughters were killed by IDF in Gaza while Abu Laish was working in a hospital in a Jews-only Israel city. There are videos of a Jewish crowd shouting at Abu Laish: “your house had weapons in it.”

          One of the most discussed reactions came from Levana Stern, whose three sons were soldiers in Gaza.

          She pushed past the reporters interviewing the doctor a day after the shelling, and yelled: “Who knows what weapons you had in your house. … If there hadn’t been fire coming from the house they wouldn’t have fired on it.” She lashed at the reporters, calling them “crazy” for listening to his “propaganda.”

          The doctor dropped his head in hands and cried: “They don’t want to know the truth; they don’t want to know the truth.”

          Larry Derfner, an American-Israeli columnist at the Jerusalem Post, said that the truth is too painful for Israelis to accept, so some just refuse to believe that innocent civilians were killed.

          “The worse it gets, the harder you have to defend it,” he said. “There’s too much to admit, there’s too much guilt to take on.”

          We call this ‘cognitive dissonance’ in our field of conflict resolution, borrowing it from social psychology. It means that people cannot cope with the reality of this doctor and his slaughtered family. His identity as a peace loving Palestinian strips away all of their rationalizations for the killing of his children, for the actions of their sons and husbands in the war. It is unbearable, and so they must demonize him or dismiss him in some way. link to marcgopin.com

          Dr. Abu Laish visited my community; I went to hear him speak. I was in the room when four of the seven audience members who were able to ask questions of Izzeldin some variant of Levana Stern’s outburst. My neighbors, my community members said to this man whose daughters had been killed: “I am a holocaust survivor….that Palestinians are refugees is their own fault. …It is your fault for acting violently…”

          Magical thinking. No cause-effect, no action-reaction; you are miserable because you are miserable people. Zionism has no involvement in your misery.

          My neighbors do not want to know the truth.

          Yonira, too, misconstrued my statement. Here’s how y. twisted it:

          Are you blaming all of WWII on the Jews here or just the war in Europe?

          I was not blaming ALL of ANYTHING on ANYBODY. Which is a direct contrast to most Jews – or at least Jews who command certain spotlights, like Deborah Lipstadt, Trudi Rubin, Alan Dershowitz, Abe Foxman… whose preferred narrative is to blame ALL of the holocaust on the evilness of Hitler. To do so vests way too much power in one man, and it fails to create a rational means to analyze patterns of acting in order to change behaviors so that the same catastrophic outcomes are not repeated. I know without a doubt that you or others here will accuse me of justifying Hitler; I’m not, but somebody will sling that accusation. Knock yourself out.

          The intellectual and logical mistake that is made by blaming ALL of the holocaust on the evilness of Hitler is exemplified in recent declarations by the president of the Jewish and democratic state that “Ahmadinejad is Hitler and it’s 1938.”

          Clearly, Ahmadinejad is not Hitler and the same fact-patterns that marked 1938 are not in evidence in 2010: Ahmadinejad has no power over Iran’s military; Iran does not have expansionist ambitions; Iran is not resentful of the Jews in its midst – quite the contrary, Iranians feel quite protective of Iranian Jews. The final irony is that the name, Iran, is derived from “Aryan,” the “noble ones,” the name has identified Iran for over 3,000 years, since the first Aryans migrated from the Scythian steppe to the land of the Medes and Pars.

          But the most stunning aspect of this controversial conversation involved Taxi’s question of yonira and yonira’s response:

          Taxi May 7, 2010 at 7:39 pm
          yonira, just out of curiousity:
          How do you explain German Aryan hatred towards German jews?
          How was it explained to you as a child and have you done your own investigations into this?
          yonira May 7, 2010 at 7:50 pm
          Good question Taxi. what do you think? I don’t know i guess from what I’ve researched much of it stems from Germany’s loss off WWI and blaming that on Jewish subterfuge.
          Much of it I equate w/ historical conspiracy theories which culminated w/ the protocols. I don’t know, perhaps there were jews in society which took advantage of germany’s misfortune.

          “I don’t know”
          “I guess”
          “conspiracy theories”
          “protocols”
          “I don’t know”
          “perhaps”

          Yonira has no notion what the “truth” is, but y energetically seeks to silence others who might present “accurate scholarship” leading to “truth,” and y is intent on sustaining zionists in their situation in Israel, where similar patterns of behavior seem to be “driving a culture mad.”
          Yonira clamors adamantly, “Never again.”
          But yonira “Does not want to know the truth.”

        • thankgodimatheist
          May 8, 2010, 9:25 am

          I mentioned above some tricks that many zionist favor which is the adoption of Arabic names. Curiously enough I was reading an old post on Mondo by Alan Sobersky and was checking the comments and I found an example of that deceptive manoeuvre. Here it is:——————-

          Mohammed al Sarafi July 12, 2009 at 8:39 pm

          ” Why do most anti-zionists and members of the radical left have absolutely no interest in Darfur, where hundreds of thousands of civilians were murdered brutally by hordes of arab militias? because there is no way to blame it on the jews! Zionism is a legitimate and necessary ideological movement, not because Jews are superior to non-jews, but because the non-jews try to wipe out the jews every few decades.”

          Eloquent enough I guess!

        • thankgodimatheist
          May 8, 2010, 9:48 am

          Correction Alan Sabrosky not Sobersky

        • David Samel
          May 8, 2010, 9:49 am

          A lengthy and lame response, PG. Just digging yourself deeper. You appear to argue that since Israelis have acted monstrously toward Palestinians, Jews must have enraged Germans. Blaming all the evil on one man, Hitler? No, he wasn’t the only one. Certainly he had help from other Nazis. But blaming any of it on the Jewish victims? I don’t recall seeing such vile nonsense from you before, but maybe I just didn’t notice. In any event, I have no intention of getting embroiled in a discussion over whether Jewish behavior was one of the reasons for the Holocaust. This is truly repulsive.

        • Mooser
          May 8, 2010, 9:56 am

          Good! Samel… Yes, I agree, your position hovers closiest next to what is ‘perceived’ realities… go forward… expound more your ideas…

          You stupid fruitcake!

        • Mooser
          May 8, 2010, 10:01 am

          It does not take any kind of extraordinary events to turn people into monsters. It can be done by any annoyance.

        • Chaos4700
          May 8, 2010, 10:05 am

          A very sad but a very insightful and unfortunately, profoundly true observation, Mooser.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 8, 2010, 10:13 am

          Here, David Samel, take this soft chair. Something to drink? — coffee? tea? vitamin water? Comfie?

          Alright, let’s remain calm now, no one will hurt you here, you are safe, do you understand that? No one will hurt you here. Just relax. Relax. Very quiet….

          our goal is to find causal factors so that we can try to make sure the same things don’t happen again. what happened was very evil; you were harmed by it; people you loved were harmed by the very evil thing that happened. why did it happen? now now now, relax…breathe in, deep cleansing breath, that’s good…. why did it happen? what made germans so angry? are they vicious angry people? if we assume that, and we pursue your line of thought that forms comparisons with palestinians, we must assume that israelis are viscious angry people. i don’t think you want to contemplate that conclusion, and it doesn’t contribute much to solving the ultimate problem, does it? so, again, what were causal factors that ‘drove a culture mad’ in germany: what “A” came before “B” ? who did “A”? why did they do it? how was it understood by the persons who were impacted by “A”? see, those are the kinds of questions some people think are important to ask and answer if you really, really hate the occurrence of “B” behavior, and you want to make sure it never happens again. More coffee?

        • Donald
          May 8, 2010, 10:14 am

          “It does not take any kind of extraordinary events to turn people into monsters. It can be done by any annoyance.”

          Dang, that’s good. I might have to steal that.

        • John Smithson
          May 8, 2010, 2:27 pm

          For what it’s worth – I’m with Psychopathic God on this one and the reason I have been following this crapola since 9/11 is first to try and determine the ‘best interests of the US’ and how to best proceed from a foreign policy perspective, and also to try and avoid a major anti-semitic backlash.

          Looking into pre-Holocaust events may prove useful in trying to help avoid a second Holocaust and does not imply any sympathy with Nazi ideas or actions. Just as looking into why people are suicide terrorists does not imply sympathy with suicide terrorism (this discussion occurred a while back on this blog).

        • demize
          May 8, 2010, 11:08 pm

          Very well argued. I think there is a reflex reaction in regards to certain ideas and the way they are expressed. This is unfortunate. If you have read Psycho-G’s posts as I have, his altruism is evident. I guess each person must rely on their own judgement to discern what is and isn’t said in good faith or bad, or in a true sense of intellectual inquiry.

        • David Samel
          May 9, 2010, 9:18 am

          No, I think PG’s backtracking and defenses have misled some of you. His original remark was that we should “figure out what Jews did that so enraged Germans that Germans turned into monsters.” That has now become we should figure out why the Germans turned into monsters. I am not opposed to studying why the Germans (and lots of other cooperating Europeans of different nationalities) acted barbarously, but I am opposed to investigating what the Jews did to provoke the Germans. There’s a world of difference between the two.

        • Chaos4700
          May 9, 2010, 9:26 am

          You know, a lot of people are unhappy with me for dogging the trolls here, but at least I’m not prone to bouts of friendly fire. Has trying to label PG as anti-Semitic really helped forward any discussion here?

        • Psychopathic god
          May 9, 2010, 9:57 am

          I am not backtracking in the least, and I do not exempt from the calculus examination of what Jews did that enraged Germans. As I stated elsewhere, Hitler did not speak in terms of broad-brush anti-Judaism; he most frequently used the term, “Judeo-Bolshevism.” Jews has lived in and among Germans for centuries if not millenia by the time of German unification in 1871. Relations between Jews and Germans began to fray when hundreds of thousands of Russian Jews fled Russia in the aftermath of the Russian revolution and the assassination of the Tsar and his family. German Jews in Germany were almost as distressed with that migration of Russian Jews as were German non-Jews. (Around this same time, Russian Jews were migrating to the US in large numbers, where they were similarly despised by German Jews who had been established in the US for over 100 years). Dimitri Simes speaks of the ideological bent of a segment of those Russian Jews (who

          You insist on all or nothing. A perspective about Germany is that the entire war was a bid to exterminate Jews; I think that is a false narrative, just as false as is the implication of your statement,

          “I am opposed to investigating what the Jews did to provoke the Germans.”

          That makes as much sense as telling your physician, “I want you to figure out why I am sick, but don’t ask me if I’ve been eating only poptarts and drinking only cheap gin for the past 6 months.” Jews were not the ENTIRE target of German war efforts, but obviously they were part of the agenda.

          WHY? “What drove a culture mad?” The blanket charge, “they were antisemitic” conveys no useful information. The very notion that “Wilhelm Marr invented the notion of antisemitism….” is historically inaccurate; as scholars of the dismantling of Andalusia have demonstrated, the term antisemite was applied to the attitude of the Ferdinand and Isabella as they expelled Jews AND MUSLIMS from Spain, as Isabella sought to reclaim God’s favor for Catholicism in all of Western Europe’s effort to break the monopoly that (predominantly Turkish) Muslims had on trade and commerce in the Mediterranean.

          There were religious factors, but the ‘Christkiller” notion had been long abandoned; it had very little currency. Similarly, the “blood libel” was a relatively minor flare-up centuries before the WWII era. German Christians were examining the life of Jesus in a very new way. Many German Jews objected to a new understanding of Christianity that did not center on Torah as its base. (Bart Ehrman is among those scholars who argue that the earliest followers of Jesus sought to function in a new way, unconnected to the Jewish tradition. There were many religious traditions current and acceptable in the Roman empire at the time; to gain acceptability — and ‘market share’ — a new religious system had to link its lineage to some distant tradition, the more distant the better: Roman gods tracked to ancient Greek gods, for example. Thus, the early Christians who ultimately prevailed, forged a link between the way of Jesus and ancient Judaism (Jews were respected by Roman authorities and had been granted concessions no other religious tradition had been granted).

          There were also economic factors besetting Germans, and the causal agents of those troubles were attributed to a few Jewish financiers. Rothschild was extremely powerful in that era; his wealth could sway kings and rulers.

          I think it is not only legitimate but important to examine all of these threads of tension between the German and Jewish communities, and to examine them critically from BOTH ends of the thread.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 9, 2010, 9:59 am

          the quote from Dimitri Simes fell victim to bad htm. but I’ve written enough already; perhaps the editor god has prevailed.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 10:21 am

          So, Donald, what do you think of eee’s and Witty’s posts for example; would your less obsessed friends stick around after looking at their posts?

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 10:28 am

          RE: “As usual, I find myself in agreement with Donald. Psycho’s single sentence about the Jews provoking the Holocaust (and that is not an unfair paraphrase) really cannot be explained as a heated reaction. It is simply inexcusable.”

          I thought Psycho was merely asking a question, which was, essentially, if anti-semitism is not a mental disease, shouldn’t we look into jewish-gentile relationships to better ascertain
          the sources of conflict, the better to overcome them? Although Freud said anti-semitism was a mental disease, so far the DSM has not listed it in its Sears catalog for drug companies.

        • David Samel
          May 9, 2010, 10:32 am

          Chaos, your criticism is noted. To the extent it targets me, I don’t engage in friendly fire often. I had a big spat with Avi, but that involved my defense of his attack, which I think was unfair. I think I may have carried it too long, but I did not initiate it.

          In general, I do not consider myself to be part of any thought police, and do not over-criticize other commenters. Do I think there is any value in attacking PG for what he said? Yes, I do. He made an outrageously anti-Semitic comment, one that I think serves the purposes of those who wish to discredit this website as a sounding board for anti-Semitism. (That’s surely not PG’s purpose, but could be used that way, and was, by yonira.) I thought it was important to show that some regular commenters vigorously distance themselves from this trash.

          I think your question was reasonable, but I am comfortable in my answer. I am not one to find anti-Semites under every tree — I don’t agree with those who claim that Ahmadinejad, Arafat, Meshal, Nasrallah, etc. are anti-Semites — but PG’s comment was beyond the pale.

        • David Samel
          May 9, 2010, 10:47 am

          No, citizen, PG was not simply asking, “shouldn’t we look into jewish-gentile relationships to better ascertain the sources of conflict.” He said, “figure out what Jews did that so enraged Germans that Germans turned into monsters.” To me, that’s like saying, “figure out what black Africans did that made slave-traders kidnap them.” Nazis not only exterminated the Jews of Germany, both those who were responsible for the crimes PG accuses them of and the millions who weren’t, but also millions of other Jews throughout Europe. If you want to examine the causes of this mass-murdering madness, fine, but if you ask what “the Jews” did to deserve it, that’s not fine.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 10:55 am

          PG, thank you for taking the time to think about this thread dispute, and sharing your thoughts about it. The idea that Hitler’s rise, and his obsession against the jews, was all due to a mental affliction (or, some say, he had one ball), gets us nowhere if we are of the mindset to adhere to “Never Again!” as a progressive humane activity to apply to all of humanity. If we can look into the
          causes of the US Civil War, we can look into the factors influencing
          the rise of Hitler and his POV. And we can look into the factors influencing the establishment of the state of Israel, and into Israel’s history since 1948.

        • Chaos4700
          May 9, 2010, 10:56 am

          No offense but I don’t see you jumping in so quickly and being so persistent when there have been anti-Arab or even anti-homosexual posts by comment makers here, Mr. Samel.

          How come when people do that, the prevailing attitude is supposed to be, “Oh don’t feed the trolls,” but even the slightest perceived attack on Jews (and I don’t think PG’s statement was any sort of attack) and that’s when you get bothered enough to come down from your ivory tower?

          I was of the understanding this blog was supposed to be common ground, not merely an outlet for Jewish thought and perspective at the expense of anything else. Was that a wrong impression? Is the comfort of Jews supposed to take precedence over everything else, here? That’s something of a contradictory notion for someone who’s anti-Zionist to take.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 11:00 am

          DS: Re: “In any event, I have no intention of getting embroiled in a discussion over whether Jewish behavior was one of the reasons for the Holocaust. This is truly repulsive.”

          What do you mean? If you think Hitler’s reaction was over some boundary, which I would agree with, don’t you think the Palestinians have equal claim?

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 11:22 am

          PG, I agree with your approach completely. I guess the only tactical lesson here is be very precise in your language. Your call for people to contemplate the aggregate causes of the Shoah (so that it would not happen again, to any people) beyond saying the cause was a mental disease not even mentioned in the DSM, was quickly used to attack you as an “anti-semite” messenger.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 11:37 am

          RE DS: “I am not opposed to studying why the Germans (and lots of other cooperating Europeans of different nationalities) acted barbarously, but I am opposed to investigating what the Jews did to provoke the Germans. There’s a world of difference between the two.”

          Gee, DS, would that “world of difference” be called Reality 101?
          You use the term “barbarously,” so please define who is the barabarian and why. Thanks.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 9, 2010, 12:12 pm

          David Samel, I don’t see the word, “deserve” or the construct “what did the jews do to deserve it” in anything I have written.

          Perhaps you can point it out to me.

          Regarding your example, of slaves and slave traders, it misses a certain nuance, in my opinion.

          Showering after a workout, it occurred to me that the South Africa-apartheid model, and curative BDS, is both the wrong model and the wrong cure. I suggest that a more apt comparison is Rwanda, and the more appropriate resolution lies in a Truth and Reconciliation initiative.

          Similarly, for your example regarding slavery and the relationship between Jews and Germans in Germany 65 years ago, and between Jews and Arabs in Middle East (Palestine as well as Iran), the apt comparison is the Hutu-Tutsi conflict that resulted in the Rwandan genocide. One side felt they were imbued by some mystical force that made them superior to the other, and gave them the right to maintain dominance over the other. Amos Elon’s “The Pity of it All,” suggests that something of that mindset prevailed among Jewish elite in Germany in the great wars years. Is it hard to imagine that a German native who had, perhaps, sacrificed and suffered in the FrancoPrussian war or in WWI, would be resentful to be told that his German efforts were inferior; ‘step aside, we Jews know better….’

        • Psychopathic god
          May 9, 2010, 12:20 pm

          Thank you Citizen, especially for the corrections and suggestions.

          the writing that goes into a forum like this is off-the-top-of-the-head stuff, not mulled and revised and refined for days on end. I’ll try to be more careful. I will NOT attempt to stop pushing the boundaries.

        • David Samel
          May 9, 2010, 12:39 pm

          Chaos – it’s hard to say whether your perceptions about my participation are accurate or inaccurate. The fact is I do not get involved in running arguments as much as other people. I do not consider myself any sort of policeman of this site with an obligation to say something when I see something, and make comments only when I have time and I’m motivated. In general, I consider anti-Arab racism and anti-gay hysteria to be much, much bigger problems than anti-Semitism. I certainly do not engage everyone who utters such anti-Arab or anti-gay sentiments, or even everyone I see doing so. Often, there already are several others doing so, and/or the remarks are so shamefully biased that they are obvious. But I often don’t engage anti-Semitic remarks as well. In any event, I have no trouble defending things that I’ve written, but I really don’t want to be held responsible for failing to react to other things. I don’t think that’s fair. I used to make frequent comments in frontpagemagazine and was constantly, constantly exposing and refuting anti-Arab bias. I sometimes do the same thing on haaretz.

          As you know, I have written about eight articles on this website. If you’re interested, you can search for them and see whether they were more concerned with anti-Jewish or anti-Arab racism. I think you probably already know the answer. In fact, unlike Phil, I rarely bring my Jewishness into this discussion. I think that your accusation that in my opinion, “the comfort of Jews [is] supposed to take precedence over everything else” is most definitely inaccurate. Indeed, when I started commenting on PG’s remark, I was seconding Donald, who is not Jewish.

          citizen, you are much farther off the mark. You talk about “the idea that Hitler’s rise, and his obsession against the jews, was all due to a mental affliction” as my idea. No it’s not. I’m not suggesting that it is worthless to explore the rise of anti-Semitism to the point where millions of Jews were killed, or to dismiss it as a mental defect, or to accept the Goldhagen thesis, as PG suggested. I am simply declaring that accusing European Jews of having provoked their own destruction (that is what PG did) is offensive, stupid, and anti-Semitic, akin to saying that black slaves brought their misery upon themselves. What does PG suggest as a basis for this claim? That many Jews were Bolsheviks? That doesn’t explain killing the Bolshevik Jews, much less killing millions of others for simply being Jewish.

          citizen, you ask me, “If you think Hitler’s reaction was over some boundary, which I would agree with, don’t you think the Palestinians have equal claim?” I don’t even know what you mean by the first part of that, but more importantly, what gives you the impression that I take Palestinian claims any less seriously than you do? Can you cite a single thing I’ve ever written here dismissing or discounting Palestinian claims?

          Finally, you say, “You use the term “barbarously,” so please define who is the barabarian and why.” Again, I don’t understand the question. I used that term in the following sentence: “I am not opposed to studying why the Germans (and lots of other cooperating Europeans of different nationalities) acted barbarously.” Obviously, I am describing the Nazis and their collaborators who participated in the Holocaust. Wasn’t that abundantly clear?

        • Psychopathic god
          May 9, 2010, 8:44 pm

          David S – in my household we used to say, in an argument, the little lady always gets the last word. Anything after that is the start of a new argument.
          I don’t wish to start a new argument, but it troubles me to be called an antisemite. I think I see a pattern in your statements that accompany that charge; the pattern is this: You said:

          [PG] accusing European Jews of having provoked their own destruction (that is what PG did) is offensive, stupid, and anti-Semitic,

          It might be offensive and stupid if I had said that, but I did not — there’s the pattern forming: you skip a step: SOMETHING made the German’s furious. What was it? Was it deliberate? Was it something that was misunderstood, misinterpreted? Cynically manipulated? By whom? To what purpose? Are similar manipulations taking place today in the course of foreign policy initiatives regarding Palestine, Iran, Iraq, Russia? Can the study of history help us figure out what influential players are doing and why?

          Do I think Jews were blameless in the bringing about the war (please note, I wrote, the war, not holocaust)? No, I do not think Jews were blameless in bringing about the war. But that is a different question, and a different answer, from you repeated charge that “PG said Jews provoked their own destruction.”

          Accuracy matters: “Accurate scholarship will unearth the whole offence….”

          With regard to your (distorted) charge that PG implicates Jews in “their own destruction,” you say:

          What does PG suggest as a basis for this claim? That many Jews were Bolsheviks? That doesn’t explain killing the Bolshevik Jews, much less killing millions of others for simply being Jewish.

          again, nothing JUSTIFIES wholesale killing.
          However, I stated at least four factors that were all in play in the wars period, not solely that Jews were bolsheviks, therefore they were killed.

          Regarding your last statement to Citizen, you said you’re describing “Nazis and their collaborators…”
          Yesterday I listened to Norman Davies discuss his book, “No Simple Victories.” Davies described the utter disregard for life displayed by Stalin and the Russians. He said that Russians killed the creme of Polish society and of its army, but that Germans took relatively good care of Polish prisoners of war, returning most of them alive. I found a list of the numbers killed in the war, by ethnicity, nationality, and status (civilian/military). Far more Jews were killed in Poland than in Germany. So maybe we’re heaping disproportionate venom on the wrong bad actor (once again, no, I am not saying that what happened to Jews in Poland was alright or that it exonerates Germans). I will say, however, that it is likely that there were far different factors playing out in Poland than in Germany. And that is worth examining.

        • David Samel
          May 10, 2010, 9:08 am

          PG, I consider myself to be rather careful before I accuse people of offensive conduct. I don’t think I’ve been unfair to you, although you are right that I exaggerated your claim that the Jews provoked the Holocaust to the Jews deserved the Holocaust. My formulation was inaccurate and turned your highly offensive statement into an even more disgusting one.

          Your original statement was “figure out what Jews did that so enraged Germans that Germans turned into monsters. Maybe then you will be able to speculate on what is turning Jewish zionists into monsters today.” That sums it up. You’re saying that Jews were responsible for inciting Germans to monstrous behavior, and that today’s Jewish Zionists are committing similar behavior today. You’re implying that there is something in the Jewish psyche that is consistent between the Jewish victims of the Holocaust, who provoked their own destruction, and Israeli Jews who persecute Palestinians today. Sorry, but in my book, that is not only absurd, it is anti-Semitic.

          Now you say, “SOMETHING made the German’’s furious. What was it? Was it deliberate? Was it something that was misunderstood, misinterpreted? Cynically manipulated? By whom?” But originally, you clearly said that Jews did that something that brought about their own destruction. And just as bad, you compared the European Jews of the 1930′s and 1940′s with Israeli Jews of today, as if there were a strain of malicious behavior or intolerable arrogance running through Jews.

          You want to know what made Germans, and other Europeans, engage in mass murder on an unbelievable scale? Fine, but it wasn’t the victims’ behavior. And Germans are not the only ones (a la Goldhagen); similar events have taken place in central Africa and Cambodia, for example. There, it was not the victims’ fault, either. Not even a little bit. You say you don’t like my slavery analogy, but you don’t show me why it’s wrong. Black Africans were not at fault for being captured and transported to the US for slavery, and Jews were not at fault for being massacred in Europe. Not even a little bit.

          I know you don’t like being called “anti-Semitic” and it may very well be that your statements here are an aberration, that you are not an anti-Semite but a decent guy who uttered an anti-Semitic remark. But the character of that remark seems quite plain to me.

          I told Chaos earlier that I think anti-Arab racism and homophobia are much greater problems in the world today than anti-Semitism. I mean it. I think anti-Semitism is greatly exaggerated, and as a middle-aged Jew, I don’t think I have ever felt threatened by it at any time. I don’t feel threatened by what you said. Nevertheless, I am quite surprised by it, and do worry about the effect that such published sentiments have on this website. I think they are manna from heaven for those who wish to portray anti-Zionists as anti-Semites. I disgree with virtually everything yonira says, but when he exulted over your remark, I did not fault him.

      • Donald
        May 7, 2010, 7:13 pm

        Speak for yourself. I despise the use of the Holocaust to justify Palestinian oppression, but I wonder why you care about the suffering of the Palestinians if you care nothing about the suffering of Jews under Hitler?

        • Psychopathic god
          May 7, 2010, 7:28 pm

          don’t know who you’re talking to Donald, PG or yonira.

          If to PG, then here’s why: why must there be an equation between the suffering of the Palestinians and the suffering of Jews? Is every person alive under some obligation to care about Jews? Why? The world — at least my world — does not revolve around Jewish sensibilities, and the holocaust is over. I didn’t do it; I can’t change what happened, I had no part in it.

          I AM implicated in the suffering of the Palestinians; that makes me care about it, what it is doing to corrupt my soul and my government. It is happening NOW, and to the extent I do nothing to try to stop it, I am one of those German soldiers, I am an IDF robot. I reject those identities

        • yonira
          May 7, 2010, 7:40 pm

          you were trying to blame the holocaust and all nazi actions on the Jews, this is unacceptable, at least in my world.

        • Donald
          May 7, 2010, 7:45 pm

          “Is every person alive under some obligation to care about Jews? Why? The world — at least my world — does not revolve around Jewish sensibilities, and the holocaust is over. I didn’t do it; I can’t change what happened, I had no part in it.

          I AM implicated in the suffering of the Palestinians; that makes me care about it, what it is doing to corrupt my soul and my government. ”

          There is no way you are going to help the Palestinians by taking that line about the Holocaust. It doesn’t make any sense. Do you think it helps the cause of peace by associating pro-Palestinian activism with rude boorish anti-semitic comments about the Holocaust? I doubt it.

          Even arguing about this is a waste of time.

        • Chaos4700
          May 7, 2010, 7:56 pm

          The double standards of Jewish Zionism:

          Regarding the Nakba, 62 years ago: “That was so long ago. Why don’t we just forget about it, put the past behind us and move on?”

          Regarding the Shoah, 65 years ago: “NEVER FORGET!”

        • MRW
          May 7, 2010, 7:56 pm

          No, PG was not, yonira. PG wrote: figure out what Jews did that so enraged Germans that Germans turned into monsters.

          He should have written: “figure out what Jewish Zionists did.” And they did do something, which is recorded in aching detail in the 1984 edition of The Transfer Agreement by Edwin Black. This is the book that Abe Foxman had re-written with the very latest edition having his name added as an author to it. Not so the original.

          Black was one of the first writers in the USA to make use of the FOIA, and it is a treasure trove of documents about what happened from 1933 to 1939. He was the only son of Holocaust camp survivors who wouldn’t talk to his about it. So he investigated it himself. When he was finished, his parents swore to disown him on the obituary page if he ever published it, and his mother said she would never speak to him again for the rest of his life. His book and his findings implicated the Zionists in the demise of Jews in a devastating way.

          It took two years before his parents relented. The book was published. All copies were bought. Only library editions remain. Those are now being sold off on used book sites to be replaced by the revised Abe Foxman version. There was another version with another editor named Carol in the 90s. The original version was MacMillan Press 1984 and it is the only one with photographs in it.

          If you ever want to read it, you’ll have to go to the Library of Congress.

        • yonira
          May 7, 2010, 8:01 pm

          If you ever want to read it, you’ll have to go to the Library of Congress.

          convenient.

        • Chaos4700
          May 7, 2010, 8:08 pm

          Heaven forbid you ever step into a library, yonira. (That’s where the public keeps books, by the way. I know you’re not into the whole “big government” thing where the government does anything other than shoveling money at greedy contractors, but still.)

        • yonira
          May 7, 2010, 8:16 pm

          you really don’t have a clue what i am into chaos. it’s fun to see you conveniently mold em into this personification of evil.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 7, 2010, 8:22 pm

          I disagree completely, Donald: the only thing that WILL help the Palestinians is to confront what Avigail Abarbenal calls the “irrational fanatic position” of imminent annihilation that affects “not just the lunatic fringe” but “mainstream Jewish culture.”

          Abarbenal is not alone. Ian Lustick described the same holocaust-focused “death cult” (Lustick’s words) that is at the core of Israel’s “hysteria” (Lustick’s word) aimed at Iran; he says the persistent re-traumatization of Jews with Holocaust is forcing Jews into a PTSD-like state; he says it “is very dangerous.” Listen for yourself: www dot edmaysproductions.net/webvideo/irannuke.wmv
          At a recent J Street conference, not one, not two, not three but almost every person in the room who had been to Israel recently stated or concurred in the observation: Israeli culture is sick.

          Echoing Ian Lustick, I suggest to Mr Glatzer that it is “very dangerous” to tread the path of holocaust victimhood/identity, when a path in exactly the opposite direction is the one that must be pursued if Palestinians are to be ‘helped,’ and if Israelis are to be released from their self-inflicted trauma.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 7, 2010, 8:30 pm

          I take Blue line to Capitol South. short walk. Be careful with the NW and NE and SW and SE streets; they all seem to meet RIGHT THERE.

        • MRW
          May 7, 2010, 8:37 pm

          Convenient? Try Amazon Used or AbeBooks, but verify that it is a 1984 first or second edition with photographs.

        • zamaaz
          May 7, 2010, 8:47 pm

          [Echoing Ian Lustick, I suggest to Mr Glatzer that it is “very dangerous” to tread the path of holocaust victimhood/identity, when a path in exactly the opposite direction is the one that must be pursued if Palestinians are to be ‘helped,’ and if Israelis are to be released from their self-inflicted trauma. ]

          For sure every Jewish Israeli dreamt of forever forgetting the tragedy (national trauma) of the holocaust, that their lives can move forward, but by the fact the regional antagonism against them haunts them a ghost (think of 1,310 rockets in 2008-2009 conflict plus the over a thousand rockets over Lebanon)…they have no other choice to be conservatively defensive, just to be sure being alive intact…

        • Shingo
          May 7, 2010, 9:00 pm

          “think of 1,310 rockets in 2008-2009 conflict plus the over a thousand rockets over Lebanon)”
          Why not also think of the 14,617 artillery shells IDF fired into Gaza in 2005-2007 or the 100,000 rockets and 100,000 cluster bombs Israel dropped on Lebanon?
          Is that no enough defensive enough for you, you fascist and derranged pig?

        • MRW
          May 7, 2010, 9:04 pm

          The original book has an evergreen cover with the full title in gold lettering: The Transfer Agreement—The Untold Story of the Secret Pact Between the Third Reich and Jewish Palestine and, at two inches, is thicker than all subsequent versions.

          Abraham Peck of the American Jewish Archive; Yoav Gelber of Yad Vashem, Israel Holocaust Museum; and Arthur Schweitzer, author of Big Business and the Third Reich, gave it rave reviews. Schweitzer called it “morally disturbing.”

          Black for the founder of Chicago Monthly, and wrote for The Chicago Trib.

        • Sumud
          May 7, 2010, 11:00 pm

          “you were trying to blame the holocaust and all nazi actions on the Jews, this is unacceptable, at least in my world.”

          Meanwhile you have no problem blaming Gazan suffering, on Gazans

        • thankgodimatheist
          May 7, 2010, 11:40 pm

          Out of curiosity I checked the book and yes it seems that in the new edition Abe Foxman is a contributor but also I found this excerpt by Blake:

          What has changed in 25 years?

          Assets are now part of almost every Holocaust discussion. Zionists are compared to Nazis everywhere by anti-Semites and opponents of the existence of the State of Israel. Holocaust remembrance has become a business. The survivors have become quaint 20th century Jewish Aboriginals whose recovered or restituted assets have been expropriated by national and international organizations claiming to speak for them and then pretending to pay homage to them. Hence, we witness the spectacle of thousands of survivors in Brooklyn and Miami living at or near the poverty level. My Dad in Palm Beach has nothing but a roof over his head. But the well-heeled movers and shakers of communal remembrance travel first class, create vibrant websites, and talk the talk… all on their “fair share” of the diverted recovered assets or restitution of the actual survivors. Every day the survivors, in their newsletters and online exchanges, rail against the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum for sequestering their access to the all-revealing Bad Arolsen archives while tiny Luxembourg with few survivors just gained a full copy. No one listens.
          link to thecuttingedgenews.com

        • zamaaz
          May 8, 2010, 1:02 am

          So if you are vehemently against the acts of the Nazis, and the IDF, what ideas can you proposed to satisfy both conflicting parties except to say STOP IT?

        • MRW
          May 8, 2010, 1:25 am

          thankgodimatheist, thanks for the heads up on that. Scroll down and see my post at May 7, 2010 at 7:21 pm.

          When I bought the book over 25 years ago, I pre-ordered it from a bookstore on Fifth Avenue. The book buyer (Jewish) was surprised I even knew about it. She was breathless. She said It’s the most important book of the 20th C for Jews. Then she said, It’s a good thing you’re pre-ordering it because it will probably be just you and the libraries that will own a copy: the ADL and B’nai B’rith issued an APB to buy up all the copies and pulp them after the review came out in [Kirkus or Publishers Weekly — can't remember]. So I ordered two copies.

        • thankgodimatheist
          May 8, 2010, 1:31 am

          Thanks MRW. In that link I posted it says that the book was translated to 61 languages but I’m not sure if they’re talking about the original version or the “new”. Any ideas? I was thinking of ordering it in French.

        • thankgodimatheist
          May 8, 2010, 1:38 am

          “what ideas can you proposed to satisfy both conflicting parties except to say STOP IT? ”

          You must be joking zamass. People on this blog have been talking about it for quite some time (I’ve been here) from different perspectives of 2 states solution or one bi-national (one state) state.

        • thankgodimatheist
          May 8, 2010, 1:42 am

          MRW: “Scroll down and see my post at May 7, 2010 at 7:21 pm.”

          I don’t see any posts/comments in that link. Do you have one to your post, thanks..

        • zamaaz
          May 8, 2010, 2:05 am

          [You must be joking zamass. People on this blog have been talking about it for quite some time (I’ve been here) from different perspectives of 2 states solution or one bi-national (one state) state. ]

          Yes, I am aware of that also but, to realize that these are not supposedly issues when there is no long-running wars between them… Remove first the ‘pattern of antagonism’ (Obama’s expression), and they can talk anything of peace and governance under the sun!

          Otherwise, in a regime of distrust, there is nothing of ‘state’ in whatever form to talk about…

        • zamaaz
          May 8, 2010, 4:35 am

          [Why not also think of the 14,617 artillery shells IDF fired into Gaza in 2005-2007 or the 100,000 rockets and 100,000 cluster bombs Israel dropped on Lebanon?]

          LOL! What do you expect from Israeli response? sling shots? That is exactly my point of response to PG… This trauma of Israel can never be cured under such circumstances… Violence begets violence… Horrible trauma takes very long time to heal… but quick to revive…

        • Psychopathic god
          May 8, 2010, 10:30 am

          I think I made clear what I think should be done to STOP IT: first the perpetual retraumatization (see Avigail Abarbenal, see Ian Lustick, in links elsewhere) with holocaust narrative has to stop — close the holocaust museum, stop teaching it in US public schools, stop glorifying victimhood. That’s why I think young Glatzer’s quest to identify with holocaust is so tragically misguided.

          Next, the traumatized Israeli culture needs therapy. imo the greatest threat to the Middle East is the psychological state of the Israeli people. That psychological state is self-induced and self-perpetuated, aided and abetted by Israeli government as well as US government. Until Israeli thinking patterns are changed, nothing will change.
          I’ve formed a working hypothesis that BDS is a wasted effort. I suggest that as part of the therapy that Israeli culture needs to undergo, and using Rwanda as a model, skip BDS and move directly to a Truth and Reconciliation programme. I mean brutal truth, 12-step, down to the bone truth-telling.

          when you’ve all finished shrieking over these suggestions, I’ll pop in again to take your questions and absorb your rage.
          til then,
          ciao

        • MRW
          May 8, 2010, 2:49 pm

          thankgodimatheist, here’s the link.

          link to mondoweiss.net

        • MRW
          May 8, 2010, 3:04 pm

          thankgodimatheist, re your link to mondoweiss.net

          Je ne sais pas. The value of that first book is the bibliography, which of course relates to body text. I remember making a comparison of mine and the 1990s version and noticed many footnotes removed. You see, as soon the FOIA came out in the 70s, Black started to collect docs on three continents. He eventually accumulated researchers and translators to go through this stuff for him. He was able to get suppressed docs and stuff that no one was putting a consequential value on at the time. He took two years to write the book, and it sat waiting for his parents to relent for another two. The JDL put a contract out on his life, and he had to hide out. [That's how I heard about the book before it was published. I knew the person who was hiding him.]

          See if you can get a used copy off Amazon, Abebooks, or some of the others. Lots of libraries are dumping their books to the Salvation Army, etc, who are selling them for pennies on the dollar.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 11:52 am

          RE: “Donald May 7, 2010 at 7:13 pm
          Speak for yourself. I despise the use of the Holocaust to justify Palestinian oppression, but I wonder why you care about the suffering of the Palestinians if you care nothing about the suffering of Jews under Hitler?”

          Who, Donald are you speaking to? The whole point so many have made on this blog is that we have learned the moral lesson of Auschwitz, and the events leading up to it, and we say “Never Again!”–sorry if you don’t think that applies to all of humanity–gee, even including the stunted Pals. BTW, why does the ADL not call the genocide of the Armenians just that? Why doesn’t the US congress? And, how many crypto Jews were involved in that genocide by the “young turks.”?

        • Donald
          May 9, 2010, 11:56 am

          I was speaking to psycho. As for the “Never again” crowd who whitewash the crimes committed against the Palestinians, Armenians, and others, they’re vicious hypocrites.

          “sorry if you don’t think that applies to all of humanity–gee, even including the stunted Pals.”

          Is that aimed at me? If so, you’re lying and you know it.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 12:09 pm

          Donald, a really weak response; I urge all readers here to look at your comments and judge for themselves if you are lying and know it.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 9, 2010, 12:25 pm

          time out, gentlemen.
          peace.

      • Les
        May 7, 2010, 9:37 pm

        Zionists worship the state of Israel much the way their ancestors worshiped Baal. That should not be confused with concern for any of the people who live in Israel.

        • zamaaz
          May 8, 2010, 2:12 am

          Yes, Zionist worship, but the former is within the bounds of, and the latter is against the Divine will (read the Scriptures)… That makes the complete difference…

        • Shingo
          May 8, 2010, 2:32 am

          “Yes, Zionist worship, but the former is within the bounds of, and the latter is against the Divine will (read the Scriptures)”

          The Scriptures are fiction and they explicitly Ban worship of pagan dieties .  The scripture make no mention of worshiping Israel.

          So you admit you are not a Christian at all, but a pagan cultist.

          At last, you demonstrate some honesty.

        • zamaaz
          May 8, 2010, 4:42 am

          Shingo these zionists are not fool either to worship a nation…they know that… but the context of this words:

          [Zionists worship the state of Israel ]

          suggest these zionist people takes the rebuilding of Israel as one ‘embodiment of this worship’… this is ‘statement’ of passionate faith in the Almighty for the capacity in doing such.

      • LeaNder
        May 8, 2010, 6:42 am

        If you really want to accomplish something with your exhumation of holocaust cadavers, try this exercise: figure out what Jews did that so enraged Germans that Germans turned into monsters.

        this is utter nonsense.

        • LeaNder
          May 8, 2010, 6:44 am

          Well, can you give us examples beyond this rather abstract statement?

        • Shmuel
          May 8, 2010, 7:04 am

          LeaNder,
          I think we are familiar with the “explanations” of Jewish responsibility for their own dehumanisation and murder. I don’t see any point in dragging them out again here.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 8, 2010, 11:01 am

          yonira had few answers, admits to having little knowledge of the causal factors that eventuated in holocaust, but yonira did gesture toward dire outcomes of WWI.

          That’s a frequent point of departure, but I think it does not go back far enough in time and history, and it suggests some monocausality when, based on my reading, I believe there are multiple threads of stresses.
          wrt to ‘starting point,’ I suggest you have to start with the Franco-Prussian war.

          The ‘multiple threads’ must include:
          1. newly won German unification;
          2. the impact on German economy of several major Jewish financial figures who caused a housing bubble based on predatory lending practices that resulted in destabilizing German economy. (sound familiar?)
          3. new Biblical criticism (a new understanding of Jesus as a man/person, an understanding Thomas Jefferson developed 30 years before Germans embarked on the quest).
          4. An understanding of Russian history of the period, of the impact of Bolshevism, of the strands of Bolshevism (see Dimitri Simes on this. Jacob Heilbrunn identifies today’s neocons as heirs to the Trotskyites who were the “apocalyptic, messianic conquer-the-universe Judeo-Bolsheviks Simes warns today’s USA to beware of).
          4. Hitler was not a ‘blanket antisemite;’ early on he wrote a paper about the danger to German culture of “Judeo-bolshevism.”
          5. read this: To Be A German Jews have dominated the narrative for the past 60 years. The Jewish version of Germans as monsters has been painted in the same broad brush that Jews so frequently accuse non-Jews of applying to ‘all’ Jews. Germans were human beings. Germans ARE human beings. We raised our sons with the repeated rubric: “There is no such thing as a bad person; there are people who do bad things.”
          To find out why people do bad things is the first step to changing that behavior.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 12:12 pm

          Great comment, PG. Keep it up! Your observations are so true.

    • Joseph Glatzer
      May 7, 2010, 10:19 pm

      Thank you everyone for your comments. This seems to be a popular sentiment on the comments, “They do have Holocaust education in schools, but they need Nakba education in schools”.

      Obviously, I agree that Nakba education needs to be in the schools here, but I took it for granted that the readers would assume I thought that. I’m speaking about my experience, which is I didn’t learn anything about the Holocaust or anti-semitic laws in Europe or pogroms in my entire public or private school education; aside from watching Schindler’s List in Junior High or maybe it was high school.

      I also learned nothing of Cesar Chavez and I still don’t among other crucial subjects.

      Also, I should explain my thinking in teaching Palestinian Holocaust history. I think it would empower them to combat Israeli propaganda, because they would be able to much more powerful advocates for their rights if they knew the full history of Jewish suffering. It effectively neutralizes the “holocaust card” from being used against them. It also de-Zionizes anti-semitism, which is something very important for all of us, in my opinion.

      • Citizen
        May 9, 2010, 12:21 pm

        Joseph Glatzer, my son is age 32. He learned about the Shoah in school, before he went to college. Additionally, there are at least three history cable chanels that continually show the Shoah. Further, he was continally taught about anti-semitism and white racism since he was in kindergarten. Where did you go to school? My son was in the Chicago metro area. BTW, he still does not know about the Nakba.

        • Joseph Glatzer
          May 10, 2010, 8:27 pm

          Citizen: I’m 25, and I’m simply telling my experience. I don’t watch TV so I don’t know about this cable channel special. I went to school in Orange County, California. If you think I’m lying about this there’s nothing I can do.

  3. Avi
    May 7, 2010, 5:20 pm

    Horrified that humanity could watch this and do nothing. Horrified by the parallels between Nazi treatment of Jews and Israeli treatment of Palestinians.

    And furious at the exploitation of these innocent victims to justify dehumanizing and oppressing other people.

    My thoughts exactly. This summarizes it all.

    Why can’t Holocaust curiculum[sic] be introduced into Palestinian schools? Why can’t Holocaust curiculum[sic] be introduced into American schools for God’s sake?

    Why should the Holocaust be taught as a unique Jewish experience?

    In Palestinian school textbooks – under the PA – students are taught about the events of WWII to include the extermination committed by Nazi Germany of Ukrainians, Poles, Jews, Gypsies, Gays, Greeks …etc.

    As for US schools, I have to echo Citizen’s sentiments. Which US schools do not include the curriculum in question?

    • MRW
      May 7, 2010, 5:45 pm

      I agree with Citizen and Avi: US schools are full of Holocaust study. Ditto movies to the point of perverse nausea. The reverse is not true. The Naqba is not taught as a consequence…and it was a consequence, like a physical reenactment of Simon Says played over 60 years. And I defy you to name one US movie, TV series, or Special, where Muslims, and especially Palestinians, aren’t depicted as smokey, swarthy, devious characters plotting the end of the chosen who have been so good to them, and who are obviously a superior race (remember that Nobel Prize count).

      That said, I really liked your post, Joseph. I felt like I was inside your head discovering it with you. And as a Jew, lucky you that you can write this and get it published without being labeled anti-semitic like the rest of us often are.

      • MRW
        May 7, 2010, 5:46 pm

        damn, those html endings. sorry, again.

      • yonira
        May 7, 2010, 5:48 pm

        There was nothing that could be construed as anti-semitic in this post. I thought it was very telling of his feelings along with being a very raw and truthful expression of his thoughts.

        • eljay
          May 7, 2010, 6:11 pm

          >> There was nothing that could be construed as anti-semitic in this post. I thought it was very telling of his feelings along with being a very raw and truthful expression of his thoughts.

          I agree. But why stop at suggestions of teaching the Holocaust to Palestinians. Why not push for teaching the Nakba to Israelis? Or, better yet, why not push for teaching that ALL “holocausts” are horrible events (without one being “the best of them all”)?

          >> Why can’t the “Museum of Tolerance” on Mamilla cemetery be scrapped, and instead launch a Holocaust museum in the Old City of Jerusalem next to a Nakba Memorial with the ribbon cutting being done by Hedy Epstein and Ghada Karmi?
          >> A shared monument of tragedy– I can’t think of a better way to launch a bi-national state for all its citizens.

          Nicely put.

        • MRW
          May 7, 2010, 6:58 pm

          Yonira,

          I have said these things and been accused of being anti-semitic:

          Jews are now the ones segregating “the other” into ghettoes, imprisoning them inside huge concrete walls.
          Jews are now the ones who capture land through aggressive war.
          Jews are now the ones who lavish praise on the ghetto elite (Palestinian Authority and their Security Forces).
          Jews are now the ones racially classifying “the other” by law.
          Jews are now the ones banning intermarriage to maintain the “purity” of their “race”.
          Jews are now the ones forcing “the other” to carry identifying symbols.
          Jews are now the ones inciting pogroms on “the other”.
          Jews are now the ones enacting specific laws governing social activities with “the other”.
          Jews are now the ones expropriating “the other’s” land and property.
          Jews are now the ones banning books from “the other’s” schools.
          Jews are now the ones trying to destroy another peoples’ way of life.
          This is the tragedy of Zionism.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 7, 2010, 7:39 pm

          yonira wrote:

          There was nothing that could be construed as anti-semitic in this post.

          why, thank you yonira. I knew you would understand.

        • yonira
          May 7, 2010, 7:42 pm

          psycho, what you said about Jews causing WWII was the most reprehensible thing I have heard on here for a while.

        • demize
          May 7, 2010, 8:08 pm

          Excuse me I don’t think he was espousing a direct causality, but inquiring as to whether there was any casual relationship. This blog attracts those like myself because it deals with questions of Jewish Identity and its relationship to Zionism and world affairs in general. If that is true than these questions are not out of bounds, are they?

        • Chaos4700
          May 7, 2010, 8:09 pm

          Keep beating up on that straw man, yonira.

        • Psychopathic god
          May 7, 2010, 8:33 pm

          I’m not sure if I would have used the word ‘reprehensible,’ but inasmuch as I said nothing like what you said I said, the matter is moot.

          Reading the actual words is your friend.

      • Joseph Glatzer
        May 10, 2010, 8:28 pm

        I’m half Jewish, and for the record I’ve been called a Nazi and anti-Semite numerous times for my articles.

  4. syvanen
    May 7, 2010, 5:34 pm

    I have always avoided equating Zionism with Nazism because there is no comparison between them with the holocaust. But the holocaust began in 1943. When one compares Germany, 1933 – 1943 the parallels can be shocking.

    Joseph, sounds like you haven’t read Finkelstein’s work on the holocaust industry, might be a good source for you.

    • yonira
      May 7, 2010, 5:40 pm

      What exactly does Finkelstein’s book have that would make the Holocaust any less horrible?

      What exactly did you mean by your comment?

      • tree
        May 7, 2010, 5:51 pm

        Wow, you are quick to jump to bizarre conclusions, yonira.

        From Glatzner’s post:”… my professor suggested I examine the precedents of compensation and repatriation set by the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust.”

        Finkelstein’s The Holocaust Industry deals with that subject matter. Its utterly logical that syvanen would recommend it on the topic. The book does not diminish the Holocaust. It ouly exposes those who have exploited it for their own gain.

    • William Boot
      May 7, 2010, 5:47 pm

      Historians debate the starting point of the Holocaust, but it is pretty clear that it was underway by late June 1941, after the Germans invaded the Soviet Union and the Einsatzgruppen began massacring innocent Jews by the thousands. By 1943, sadly, most of the killing had been completed.

      • syvanen
        May 7, 2010, 5:58 pm

        That is true about late June 1941, but the mass killings of Jews did become industrial scale until later. Most of the deaths occurred in the last 30 months of the war.

      • tree
        May 7, 2010, 6:03 pm

        By 1943, sadly, most of the killing had been completed.

        I’d call that sentence a classic example of bad phrasing.

        In the concentration camps, the death rate was at its highest
        between 1943 and 1945.

        From the US Holocaust Memorial Museum website:

        It has been estimated that nearly half of the total number of concentration camp deaths between 1933 and 1945 occurred during the last year of the war.

        link to ushmm.org

        • MRW
          May 7, 2010, 6:50 pm

          It has been estimated that nearly half of the total number of concentration camp deaths between 1933 and 1945 occurred during the last year of the war.

          That’s exaggerated. There have been absolutely no reports, ever, that they found 3 million corpses (1/2 the number) or even 1 million (1/3 of 1/2) in the last year, and there would had to have been. No US Army reports. No Red Cross reports. it’s a physical impossibility to cremate 3 million people in a year, even with seven death camps (and the majority were closed then), and if you gas them or shoot them, you have all the bodies remaining.

          Follow the links here: Jennifer Rosenberg link to history1900s.about.com

          Look at the dates the camps were closed.
          link to history1900s.about.com

      • MRW
        May 7, 2010, 6:20 pm

        The rounding up was before 1943.
        The Germans lost, what, 80% of their forces in the Battle at Stalingrad? Hitler was running that operation and he gravely miscalculated in his obsession to take the city. He underestimated the size of Zhukov’s Red Army and he grossly underestimated his brilliance. The Luftwaffe couldn’t get supplies in, his men starved, and they didn’t have materiel to fight. Then there was the Russian winter.

        Zhukov surrounded the 6th Army and slaughtered them. When you look at a map and see where Stalingrad is and realize that Zhukov reached Auschwitz, on foot, by January (?) 1945 — and I can’t remember the date for Berlin — that Russian machine was bearing down on the German army and its allies with a five million-man army that Hitler could not contain. Zhukov left Stalingrad (now Volvograd) around Feb or Mar 1943, and fanned out from the bottom of Finland all the way down to the top of Georgia and mowed his way to Germany like a cow-catcher on the front of a train. [just look at a map to grasp the scope of it]

        Germany was in retreat with no supplies. They didn’t have time to pick up huge groups of people to take them to Auschwitz after Stalingrad. You’re talking about an area the size of Cleveland to San Francisco and the Canadian border to San Antonio, and the German army was in retreat.

        • syvanen
          May 7, 2010, 8:39 pm

          MRW you make a good case that the Germans were rounding up the Jews and placing them in enclosures (the Warsaw ghetto and various concentration camps) before 1943. That is probably quite true. But what I referred to is that the industrial level extermination program began after that time. Herding Palestinians into enclosures is not the same thing as exterminating them.

          It is interesting that you mention the Battle of Stalingrad. From my reading of this history (and the thinking of Nazi leadership) is that they began to realize after that devastating defeat that they were going to lose the war. . It seems they then really started to think in terms of the final solution: sort of like ‘well if we are going down, then let us make sure that all of these Jews we have captured will go down with us”.

          Having said this Boot’s initial point is still valid. The German army in Russia was killing Jews at levels that even the worst Cossack pogroms from the 19th century could not match. Especially the German 6th Army as it moved through the Ukraine is a good example. You mention “Einsatzgruppen” killer teams at that time but they were exterminating Jews at the tens or hundreds of thousands; this is not the millions of killings that began after 1943.

          One last point. It was the German 6th Army that moved through the Ukraine (Babi Yar anyone) that was surrounded at Stalingrad. 95,000 German troops were surrounded in that battle: after the war about 5,000 POWs finally returned to the father land. That must remain one serious defeat.

        • RoHa
          May 8, 2010, 12:46 am

          MRW,

          Volgograd.

          Volvograd is the town where the Russians make cars for the Swedes.

        • MRW
          May 8, 2010, 1:04 am

          ;-) ;-) god. What was I thinking? I know it’s Volgograd and that it’s on Volga River. Hell, I’ve even crossed it. Thx.

        • Tobias
          May 8, 2010, 10:15 am

          … “They didn’t have time to pick up huge groups of people to take them to Auschwitz after Stalingrad” …

          MRW you are forgetting about Hungarian Jewry? In May and June 1944, well after Stalingrad, Eichmann found time and trains to transport over 450,000 Jews – 75% of these poor unfortunates to their death – mostly in Auschwitz.

      • Bandolero
        May 7, 2010, 6:33 pm

        @William
        The holocaust started 20 January 1942:

        link to en.wikipedia.org

        It needed some time to build up the desired killing kapacity.

        @Joseph Glatzer
        No need to feel guilty for what you personally haven’t done. You didn’t harass Palestinians. You don’t have to feel guilty. I didn’t harass jews. So I feel not guilty.

        I think, the important point is to make it better today.

      • LeaNder
        May 8, 2010, 7:20 am

        thanks, saves me one comment. Basically one has to include the whole range of prewar anti-Jewish laws, 1938, the heightened preparatory stage for the propaganda films … that was to accompany the “final” solution starting about the same time as the war. The Wannsee conference is just one date among many that come to mind.

        And don’t forget some camps were built immediately after the Nazis seized power. Wise Jewish Germans left early and many did.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 12:27 pm

          LeaNder, what’s your point? Why don’t you give us a chronological sequence of events, beginning with the mass headline that world jewry was boycotting Germany? Thanks.

    • Sumud
      May 8, 2010, 12:07 am

      “I have always avoided equating Zionism with Nazism because there is no comparison between them with the holocaust. But the holocaust began in 1943. When one compares Germany, 1933 – 1943 the parallels can be shocking.”

      syvanen that’s a rather odd thing to say. How do you describe what occurred in Germany 1933-43, if not Nazism?

      • syvanen
        May 8, 2010, 12:48 am

        Sumed sensibly asks:

        syvanen that’s a rather odd thing to say. How do you describe what occurred in Germany 1933-43, if not Nazism?

        The holocaust remains a unique crime against humanity. The Israelis have not come even close to that crime. My point is that before that happened many of the things that the Nazis did before WWII parallel what the Israelis are doing today. I guess Nazism is today defined by the holocaust, it is not what Israel has yet done. But there are terrible similarities between what the nazis did between 1933 and 1943 and what Israel has been and is doing in Palestine today.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 12:30 pm

          Syvanen, do you think that Israel would do the same as Nazi Germany if they were not so dependent on the US (and before that France and before that England)? If not, why?

  5. eljay
    May 7, 2010, 5:42 pm

    >> I think I like learning about the Holocaust so much because I get to connect to my Jewish identity, whatever that may be, without feeling guilty.

    I’m curious:
    i) Why would you feel at all guilty about “connecting to your Jewish identity”; and
    ii) Aside from providing the soothing balm of victimhood, how exactly does learning about the Holocaust reduce the guilt of “connecting to your Jewish identity”?

    I’m first generation Canadian, raised Roman Catholic. My dad was Croatian; my mother, Italian. I spent many years “being” Croatian and/or Italian – and a good Catholic – until I finally realized that I’m Canadian and I don’t believe in all the gawd bullshit. I love my country (for better or worse), I value reason (and I make an effort to pursue it) and and I have no need to try to “connect” to identities that seem quaint but are completely unnecessary to my person or my life.

    You may want to do yourself a favour and strive less to “connect” to these identities and more to simply be who you are.

    • MRW
      May 7, 2010, 5:47 pm

      My dad was Croatian; my mother, Italian Good eats in that household ;-)

      • eljay
        May 7, 2010, 5:51 pm

        >> Good eats in that household ;-)

        Damned straight! But…the parents are gone and my several-generations-Canadian wife and I are vegetarian, so the eats ain’t quite what they used to be. :-(

        But they’re still pretty good, so there aren’t really any regrets. :-)

    • Citizen
      May 7, 2010, 5:49 pm

      What’s really amazing is that Mr GLATZER thinks US school kids are not taught about the Shoah. OTH, he does seem to think they should be taught about the Nakba too. Truth is, US school kids are taught endlessly about the Shoah, and absolutely nothing about the Nakba. Hollywood follows the same script.

    • Avi
      May 7, 2010, 5:51 pm

      You may want to do yourself a favour and strive less to “connect” to these identities and more to simply be who you are.

      The effort to “connect” may be the product of peer pressure, that is to say, socially enforced norms by the Jewish community in which Joseph grew up.

      And I agree. In matters of personal identity, it’s far healthier to just allow one’s self to be, to let things fall as they may, without forcing them onto one’s self.

      • eljay
        May 7, 2010, 5:55 pm

        >> The effort to “connect” may be the product of peer pressure, that is to say, socially enforced norms by the Jewish community in which Joseph grew up.

        Yeah, I do know that it’s easier said than done. My best friend is a pretty “lax” Muslim, but he still can’t quite free himself from (perceived) familial / religious / communal obligations because they’re all so tightly inter-woven. It’s a shame: He’s a smart guy, hobbled by the expectations of those around him.

    • tree
      May 7, 2010, 6:05 pm

      Gotta agree with eljay’s advice here.

    • Psychopathic god
      May 7, 2010, 8:36 pm

      God is a Concept by which
      we measure our pain
      I’ll say it again
      God is a Concept by which
      we measure our pain
      I don’t believe in magic
      I don’t believe in I-ching
      I don’t believe in Bible
      I don’t believe in Tarot
      I don’t believe in Hitler
      I don’t believe in Jesus
      I don’t believe in Kennedy
      I don’t believe in Buddha
      I don’t believe in Mantra
      I don’t believe in Gita
      I don’t believe in Yoga
      I don’t believe in Kings
      I don’t believe in Elvis
      I don’t believe in Zimmerman
      I don’t believe in Beatles
      I just believe in me…and that reality

      The dream is over
      What can I say?
      the Dream is Over
      Yesterday
      I was the Dreamweaver
      But now I’m reborn
      I was the Walrus
      But now I’m John
      and so dear friends
      you’ll just have to carry on
      The Dream is over

  6. Citizen
    May 7, 2010, 6:06 pm

    Anyway, I’d like Mr GLATZER to address the total absence of US public school instruction on the Nakba. I also want to hear from him that he never learned in the US public school system anything about the Shoah. I also would like to point out to him that the three cable channels devoted to history all have major programs on the Shoah, but none on the Nakba.

  7. Chu
    May 7, 2010, 6:16 pm

    “Jews are now the ones segregating “the other” into ghettoes, imprisoning them inside huge concrete walls.”

    -From another point of view, Israeli’s have created their own expanding ghetto. They’re despised by all their neighbors and they’ve walled themselves in by a giant barrier wall.
    Do they feel a closer bond as Israelis, contained within this enclosure and surrounded by enemies?

    • Avi
      May 7, 2010, 6:42 pm

      Do they feel a closer bond as Israelis, contained within this enclosure and surrounded by enemies?

      As a matter of mental construct, the peace treaty with Jordan, for example, eased the overwhelming sense of imprisonment of one’s own creation, much in the same way the treaty with Egypt did. I remember the very first time I traveled outside of Israel, by plane, to Europe, I was enthralled by the open borders, by the sense of endless and boundless frontiers, and that was in the days before the open borders of the EU.

      So, in a way, Israelis do realize that they are living in a cage of their own making, but at the same time refuse to summon the sensibilities and the courage to resolve that predicament, i.e. to accept a pan-Arab peace proposal.

      Mind you, Israelis will tell you that they are motivated by fear, but nothing will stop an Israeli from getting a “good deal” if it requires sneaking into an area controlled by the Palestinian Authority to do some shopping. This was the case in Jericho recently where an Israeli family was sent back to Israeli-controlled territory. The same happened during and before the first Intifada. Israelis wanted to have access to the occupied territories of the West Bank to purchase clothing, vegetables and fruits, but cared little for the plight of the population under occupation. When the Palestinians rebelled against the occupation, Israelis were indignant.

      • Chu
        May 7, 2010, 7:08 pm

        Avi, thanks for taking the question seriously.

        To me they continue to steal from their neighbors and then are outraged when they are retaliated against. It just seems so ridiculous that they are living in a cage of their own making, as you so nicely put it.

  8. thankgodimatheist
    May 7, 2010, 6:35 pm

    “Horrified by the parallels between Nazi treatment of Jews and Israeli treatment of Palestinians.”

    WHOOP! WHOOP! WHOOP! THE N… WORD!

    • zamaaz
      May 8, 2010, 4:56 am

      [But there are terrible similarities between what the nazis did between 1933 and 1943 and what Israel has been and is doing in Palestine today. ]

      Let us always remember these two peoples are still in a state of war (of attrition) inasmuch as no permanent peace was signed yet. These are realities of war… Unless peace is mutually declared ‘anything can happen…’, and that is beyond the control of critics…

  9. Psychopathic god
    May 7, 2010, 6:57 pm

    perhaps I was a tad harsh w/ Mr Galtzer. but just a tad. the world’s a tough place; suck it up.

    Glatzer opened the article with the statement that he was researching “compensation and repatriation.” I was looking forward to reading about how Israel had extorted billions and billions from Germany, from Switzerland, from Poland, from USofA, and as we speak is creating laws to extort money from Arab states.

    I figured he would factor in the expense Americans have incurred for fighting wars for Israel — with a dangling participle (do equations have participles?) for each American life lost in fighting, and another variable for each innocent Iraqi or Afghani, and another number for Iranian children routinely terrorized by Israeli threats of war on their home, and yet another for opportunities foregone by American taxpayers who have wasted treasure on war rather than education or art or productive capacities.

    Then, I surmised, Glatzer would add all those billions, calculate a per capita figure, and apply it to each Palestinian. I was eager to see the result of his calculation.

  10. My Holocaust education linked to this.
  11. MRW
    May 7, 2010, 7:21 pm

    I was looking forward to reading about how Israel had extorted billions and billions from Germany, from Switzerland, from Poland, from USofA, and as we speak is creating laws to extort money from Arab states.

    Like Bronfman lifting $8 billion off the Swiss for the Holocaust survivors in Israel. Oh yeah. Then he put it into a foundation for them. The real ones, the ones who got out of the camps, (not the ones who call themselves Holocaust survivors because they lived in Germany or Poland) they are still living on subsistence wages in Israel.

    Let me tell you the dirty little secret of US foundations. If you put your money into a US foundation (like Elie Wiesel), it’s all tax-free. You’re called a great philanthropist (bullshit).

    You are only required to spend 10% per annum on whatever your foundation is about.

    The remaining 90% is for you to run your foundation on (you), buy your buildings (Gate’s 11,000 sq ft ‘apartment’ is inside his ‘office’) on teh shores of a lake, and invest the rest to make more dough. And only 10% of that income is necessary to spend.

    In effect, a 10% tax. Not too baggy.

    • MRW
      May 7, 2010, 7:24 pm

      Contd.

      Think of this in terms of Haim Saban’s Foundation. He has one issue, so he says: Israel. So he spends 10% on Israel every year, and keeps the remaining 90% without paying on red cent to the US Treasury.

      Think about it.

    • MRW
      May 7, 2010, 7:29 pm

      Contd. again.

      Or this: Bill Gates got all sorts of omigod press a few years ago when he announced that he was leaving almost nothing to his only daughter Jennifer. Some people were incensed.

      He said he was leaving 99% of his money to his foundation.

      She’ll be running that foundation and nothing will have changed. She’ll pay a few bucks on the few bucks Gates left her, and be a tax-free billionaire for the rest of her life.

  12. Chaos4700
    May 7, 2010, 8:01 pm

    Would this be a good time to point out that Zionists actually lobbied to make it illegal in Europe to compare the actions and policies of Israelis to Nazis merely because most Israelis are Jewish? It’s actually been defined as “anti-Semitsm” in Europe — compare the ethnic cleansing practices of one specific nation to the ethnic cleansing practices of another specific nation, and that’s supposed to be “anti-Semitism.” And you can even get convicted for doing it in Europe, from what I hear.

  13. NormanF
    May 7, 2010, 8:03 pm

    I am outraged and deeply offended by this perversion of Jewish history to justify an inappropriate comparison of Israel as a Nazi-like state. It is just in bad taste. Israel’s acts of self defense against Arab fascist terrorism and mass murder of Jews do not even come close to what the Nazis did to the Jewish people. Its says a lot about the character of the editors who run this website that they allowed this drivel of Holocaust Denial to be posted – and another form of Holocaust Denial is denying the uniqueness of Jewish suffering and torment during the Second World War.

    • Chaos4700
      May 7, 2010, 8:11 pm

      Case and point.

    • Chaos4700
      May 7, 2010, 8:13 pm

      Arab fascist terrorism and mass murder of Jews

      How many Jews were slaughtered in 1948, versus the number of Palestinians who were killed? Refresh our memory. And which “fascist” regime? And “terrorism” more so than, say, bombing hotels and assassinating non-Zionists, Jew and non-Jew alike?

      Nazi Germany claimed land to its east in order to resettle the “reinrassig” population. What’s Israel doing to its east, again?

      • yonira
        May 7, 2010, 8:20 pm

        link to mahalo.com

        These numbers seem pretty accurate.

        • Chaos4700
          May 7, 2010, 8:24 pm

          According to those numbers, at least two Arabs were killed for every Zionist Jew. If what the Arabs did was mass murder than by golly, what Israel did was damn near a genocide!

        • Psychopathic god
          May 7, 2010, 8:42 pm

          Benny Morris has researched it, written it, says Israel::Arab kill ratio is heavy on the Israel side. BUT, he says, “our backs were to the wall.” And anyway, says Morris, “Zionists had better weapons; Arabs were not well organized, so they couldn’t kill as efficiently.”

          link to c-spanvideo.org

        • yonira
          May 7, 2010, 8:44 pm

          it was war chaos. with pretty small numbers compared to those in WWII, in D-Day alone over 550K soldiers died.

        • syvanen
          May 7, 2010, 9:07 pm

          yonira claims:

          D-Day alone over 550K soldiers died

          Not even close. Where do you come with this BS?

        • yonira
          May 7, 2010, 9:15 pm

          link to doinghistoryproject.tripod.com

          operation overlord i guess. sorry too much vicodin.

          link to wiki.answers.com
          real DD numbers.

        • syvanen
          May 7, 2010, 10:24 pm

          yonira those numbers given on those pages are total nonsense. The US did not suffer 135,000 casualties on D day, not even close. Where do you come up with this shit?

          Before posting this nonsense, please keep in mind there are a number of us that have a good sense of what happened then, and you, poor boob, have no idea at all what was going on.

    • eljay
      May 7, 2010, 9:00 pm

      >> I am outraged and deeply offended by this perversion of Jewish history … the uniqueness of Jewish suffering and torment during the Second World War.

      “Uniqueness of suffering”? Bullshit! What is it with this glorification of suffering, anyway? “Gawrsh, we had us the bestest genocide of ‘em all folks!” Fuck that!

      The Armenians, the Cambodians, Nanking (Nanjing), the Iraqis over the past 20 years, the Palestinians over the past 60 years, et cetera – there’s enough suffering to go around without this “ours was the best of the worst and don’t you dare say otherwise!” bullshit mentality. Fuck you and your pity fest.

      If you believe that murder and starvation and brutality are wrong, don’t do it to other people. And don’t justify it with meaningless, one-sided garble such as destabilization, maximalism, ‘the other’, knots, and ‘better arguments’.

      “We” are supposed to be better than “they” are, yet every day I read about how “we” are fucking “them” over in myriad ways and calling it freedom/democracy/justice. And then “we” are surprised when “they” don’t like it.

      Someone asks: “Where are the peaceful protests?” And when the peaceful protests materialize and the protesters get shot at, it’s their fault for being “destabilizing”.

      Someone asks: “Where is the Palestinian Gandhi?” And when he materializes and is imprisoned or assassinated, it’s their fault for not having another one on hand to take his place.

      Someone argues: “But the Native Americans were shafted 250 years ago!” Jeezus, that one’s just too stupid to even address.

      The Palestinians have done wrong. The Israelis have done wrong. Both sides have been aggressors, both sides have been victims. Both side – to use a stupid phrase – need to “present themselves as human beings instead of victims”.

      The Holocaust was suffering. The Nakba was suffering. Neither one trumps the other – there is no “bestest” suffering. And neither is an excuse to evade dialogue or to avoid compromise.

    • Sumud
      May 8, 2010, 12:25 am

      “I am outraged and deeply offended by this perversion of Jewish history to”

      Funny that, I’m not even jewish and I’m deeply offended at the continuous exploitation of jewish suffering in WW2 to justify the land grabbing murderous terror state of Israel.

    • Avi
      May 8, 2010, 1:11 am

      Arab fascist terrorism

      You really need to make up your mind.

      Sometimes you claim it’s “Arab fascism”, other times you claim it’s “Islamic fascism”.

      The problem with your allegations is that they are baseless, that is to say that you are completely ignorant of the simple fact that some of the staunch Palestinian resistance leaders have been and continue to be Palestinian Christians.

      And I find it quite telling that so many are quick to jump down PsychoticGod’s throat for being an alleged “anti-Semite” (which I don’t believe he is as his native language is not English. There’s clearly a misunderstanding.) while letting an outspoken bigot like you off the hook. They know who they are.

    • eGuard
      May 8, 2010, 3:40 am

      NormanF: inappropriate comparison of Israel as a Nazi-like state
      So as long as Israel hasn’t killed over 5.999.999 Palestinians, the comparision is not allowed. The problem is: how do we know Israel will stop at that number?

    • Citizen
      May 9, 2010, 12:37 pm

      NormanF: 66 million Christians died during the red revolution. Care to speak about that? Surely you know that revoltion was led by a very disproportionate number of Jews? You can start with those individuals who killed the young Romonov girls. Please name names.

  14. VR
    May 7, 2010, 8:29 pm

    I think that actually all pretension to be something other than what we really are is just a denial. We create all of these distractions which reduces us from the essential, that we are all the same. All of us are here for a short time, and we do not have the time to be distracted by the delusions of some, or to be exploited by a few who think they are some sort of grand masters of humanity. It is because we are all the same that all is equally precious and that others are not to be disenfranchised while some preen about with the delusion that they are superior. If this vision of truth were grasped by humanity there would be no time for these atrocities, and each would contribute to the other – we all meet the same end

    REALITY

  15. Richard Witty
    May 7, 2010, 8:35 pm

    My holocaust education occurred with marrying into a family of survivors, real people, not pictures, not abstractions, not an ideology, not a fraud.

    The weren’t herded into walled ghettos. But, they were not permitted to hold professions (even serving the Jewish community) – Not occurring among Palestinians. There are Palestinian universities, Palestinian hospitals, Palestinian accountants, lawyers, etc.

    They were permitted NO free movement. West Bank Palestinians have the option of Jordanian passports, which permits them to travel internationally.

    Jews in Hungary were citizens of Hungary. Their property was taken without due process within the country that they were citizens.

    And, they were later shipped to death camps.

    Hungarian Jews had a relatively “easy” time compared to German, Polish, Rumanian, Austrian, Dutch, Belgian, French Jews.

    Gazans are restricted by passage through Israeli borders AND through Egyptian.

    Palestinians in the West Bank, in some ways have more rights and mobility than Palestinians that have lived three generations in Lebanese refugee camps.

    I get your outrage.

    But, the remedy for the outrage is not a single state, but reform.

    • Chaos4700
      May 7, 2010, 8:39 pm

      God, this post is so full of blatant lies I don’t even know where to begin, and I’m pressed for time. Can somebody else handle this? Shmuel? tree? I know you find interacting with the Wittypocrisy to be distasteful, Donald, but please?

      • yonira
        May 7, 2010, 8:41 pm

        what were the lies, please elaborate Chaos….

      • zamaaz
        May 7, 2010, 8:51 pm

        [God, this post is so full of blatant lies I don’t even know where to begin,..]

        There are only three sides for this situation; a) you are absolutely correct, b) you knowledge is insufficient, or c) you’re mentally blind… its one’s taking a choice…

        • thankgodimatheist
          May 8, 2010, 1:20 am

          “There are only three sides for this situation;”

          Ouch! That’s some very poor English zamass. Even by my standards.

        • zamaaz
          May 8, 2010, 1:39 am

          LOL! But that reaction is OK!… That poor English is my indistinguishable weapon…

        • Shingo
          May 8, 2010, 2:03 am

          “LOL! But that reaction is OK!… That poor English is my indistinguishable weapon…”

          Maybe, if you’re trying to be a comedian.

          So long as you’re OK with the fact you’re soiling the already hideous reputation of Christian Zionists.

          What about your stupidity and ignorance?  Are they secret weapons also?

        • thankgodimatheist
          May 8, 2010, 3:12 am

          “That poor English is my indistinguishable weapon…”

          Have you been drinking zamass because that doesn’t make sense. If what you wanted to say is ‘hidden weapon’ move a finger..

      • Shmuel
        May 8, 2010, 3:20 am

        Not “distasteful”, Chaos, pointless. In the case of comparisons between the Holocaust and Zionist treatment of Palestinians, it is particularly pointless, because the two are really not the same. It is a perfect opportunity for people like RW to say “but the Palestinians are not forced into hiding, not worked to death, not murdered on sight; they have some rights, protections, assistance, possibility of dignified life”. All of this is true and untrue, but mostly imprecise and irrelevant, in other words a goldmine for “live and let live” obfuscators like RW.

        • Richard Witty
          May 8, 2010, 3:42 am

          Shmuel,
          We both state that the parallels are false, and I certainly do not deny the maltreatment of Palestinians.

          It is not an “excuse” for anything, or “pointless”, unless your only window is political litmus testing.

          “Live and let live” is a value, a goal, not an observation of current reality.

          By urging “live and let live” I am BOTH supporting the rights of Palestinians, AND supporting the rights of Israelis, particularly to self-determine.

        • Chaos4700
          May 8, 2010, 9:58 am

          Which is a fancy way of saying, “I never want Israel punished for the crimes committed in 1948.”

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 12:46 pm

          Right, Dick Witty, let’s live and let live, and when there’s a real problem Israel has US paid-for-tanks, and F-16s w/WP, and the Pal kid has a tiny stone to throw. Let’s all go watch Song Of The South. Pancakes anyone?

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 12:54 pm

          Here you go, for those who don’t know my reference:
          link to en.wikipedia.org

      • tree
        May 8, 2010, 5:09 pm

        Chaos,

        Pointless in refuting Witty for Witty’s sake. His filter is always in place. However there are a few items in his above post where he whitewashes the situation for the Palestinians (Israeli citizens and the occupied subjects) that are worthy of countering for the sake of others.

        “Jews in Hungary were citizens of Hungary. Their property was taken without due process within the country that they were citizens.”

        Palestinian citizens of Israel have had their land expropriated without due process for over 60 years. And in addition, 750,000 Palestinian citizens of Mandate Palestine were expelled from their homes with the birth of Israel on Mandate Palestine soil. According to the UN Partition Plan which Zionist apologist like to claim that Israel “accepted”, all residents of the land that was to become the Jewish State were full citizens of that state, regardless of religion or ethnic background. However, Israel not only expelled these citizens and prohibited their return with “shoot to kill” orders, but it expropriated all their property, land, houses and businesses without compensation.
        Even those Palestinians who were either not expelled, or managed to return to their homes nonetheless, were put under military rule and prohibited from leaving their villages without permit or permission, and have suffered from continual land expropriations by Israel made to benefit Jews only.

        “But, they were not permitted to hold professions (even serving the Jewish community) – Not occurring among Palestinians.”

        There are courses of study that Palestinian citizens of Israel are unofficially prohibited from pursuing in Israel, and Arab teachers are subject to Shin Bet approval (not so for Jewish teachers). And there are numerous jobs that are not open to Palestinian citizens of Israel, under the excuse that they are “security” related, or are available only to Israeli citizens who are “subject to conscription” in Israel. “Subject to conscription” equals not Palestinian ( Except for the Druze.) A Palestinian citizen could volunteer for the military –although, of the few that do, the majority are rejected by the IDF– however, since he/she volunteered and was not “conscripted” he/she will not qualify for the privileges that being “subject to conscription” allow.

        They were permitted NO free movement. West Bank Palestinians have the option of Jordanian passports, which permits them to travel internationally.

        West Bank Palestinians have been subject to recurring curfews and numerous internal checkpoints that have choked off their economy and way of life, and severly restricted their freedom of movement within their own land. There are Palestinian towns and villages that are entirely surrounded by Israeli walls and fences, with the Palestinians obliged to wait for Israeli jailers to unlock the gates to their lands to access them.

        There was what I considered a very thoughtful article about the comparisons of the condition of Jews in pre-World War II Germany and the treatment of Palestinians, written in 1991. I’d suggest it as reading for all. Some of the info is outdated, but for the most part things have worse, not better.

        link to ameu.org

        • Richard Witty
          May 8, 2010, 5:26 pm

          Again, Tree,

          My points were relative to the question of the parallel of naziism to Israel/Palestine.

          The comparison is emotional rather than objective.

          Subjectively,
          There is an important theme relative to survivors and descendants of survivors of the holocaust, which is “what do you derive from that experience”?

          The majority of themes that I’ve heard are goods in the real survivors and descendants of survivors that I’ve known well. That is two features:

          1. NEVER AGAIN, will we submit to a subordinated and potentially persecuted role in society.
          2. The golden rule, of don’t do unto others what you would not have done unto you.

          That is different than the form that that takes for the state of Israel.

          The reality of terror, and accompanying condemnation and ridicule, is that fear has multiplied in a traumatized people to the point that the first is pre-eminent, and the second is a luxury.

          In the west, for young Jewish people that have not experienced persecution particularly, the concept of “never again” isn’t particularly relevant.

          For the majority of Israelis, “Never again” is taken for granted, its in the culture, its the water that people live in, and not often discussed skeptically or critically.

          The bridge is knowledge of European Jews’ experience. Those that are fully aware of that, don’t adopt the dismissal of the importance of the holocaust in collective psychology.

          Avram Burg’s approach is to suggest that Jews should move past the holocaust as psychological fixation (not by dismissal, but by some catharsis and choice) to present relations.

          That contrasts with Finkelstein’s presentation who also says that Jews should move past the holocaust, but runs it through the political prism, rather than assisting psychological transformation.

          I contest that much of Finkelstein’s methodology is what KEEPS the holocaust as a trauma theme, in the condemnation and judgementalism of his approach, and his followers.

        • sherbrsi
          May 8, 2010, 5:33 pm

          The comparison is emotional rather than objective.

          Just like your labeling of “reptile” Witty.

          For how long will you dehumanize in the name of supporting humanization?

        • tree
          May 8, 2010, 5:44 pm

          Richard, you stated falsities, and whitewashed the conditions that Israel forces upon its Palestinian citizens and subjects. I was correcting your falsities.

          It is you who are reacting with emotions rather than objectively. The rest of your post is your usual mumbo-jumbo signifying nothing. I leave it to sherbsri to poke the holes in your bloviations.

        • Richard Witty
          May 8, 2010, 6:04 pm

          What specifically are falsehoods. You use that term a lot, but don’t specify.

        • Richard Witty
          May 8, 2010, 6:07 pm

          So, you believe that the Palestinian status is parallel to Germany’s relative to Jews, pick a date? Factual, not emotional.

          Or, that the issues of potential lessons learned from the holocaust aren’t relevant?

          Which of those are falsehoods?

        • Chaos4700
          May 8, 2010, 6:14 pm

          The notion that Gazans are not prisoners to the whims of Israel, for starters. Israel exerts control over the Rafah border, and technically Europe is supposed to be monitoring the crossing, before you blame “the Arabs” Egypt exclusively, again.

          And then there are the assaults, attempted sinkings and piracy by the Israeli navy in international waters off of Gaza.

        • Chaos4700
          May 8, 2010, 6:21 pm

          And then there’s the fact that Israel will literally “deport” Palestinians from the West Bank to Gaza. Can you explain that, Witty?

        • tree
          May 8, 2010, 6:39 pm

          Richard, I get it that you can’t understand my posts because its in your emotional interest not to, but I clearly stated in my first post (time stamped 5:09pm) what your falsities were. You can lead a “liberal Zionist” to water…..

          I also made clear what my time frame was. Please don’t further waste my time reiterating what has already been said because you lack read comprehension skills.

        • Richard Witty
          May 8, 2010, 6:48 pm

          I read your post. You didn’t address my points. How can you conclude that your comments disclosed falsities?

          Do you think that the relationship of Israel to Palestine is parallel to Germany to Jews, at any date?

          Or that the lessons of the holocaust aren’t relevant (say Burg’s approach)?

        • Shingo
          May 8, 2010, 6:59 pm

          “Do you think that the relationship of Israel to Palestine is parallel to Germany to Jews, at any date?”

          Obviously we do Witty. Why doyou need the answer r
          robe reapeated multiple times.

          Think Gaza – Warsaw Ghetto.

        • Shingo
          May 8, 2010, 7:02 pm

          Of course,Finkelstein has a very apt photo montage comparing Isteal to Nazi Germany if would rather look at pictures than read Witty.

        • Richard Witty
          May 8, 2010, 7:08 pm

          The question was for Tree.

          I think there are similarities in very early persecutorial laws: passes, roadblocks.

          For Gazans, if the restricted borders were only by Israel, then I might agree with your parallel more, but I think Hamas Gaza has offended and violated much that results in their being severe border restrictions both from Egypt and from Israel.

          The movement to improve Palestinians’ lives is not served by that exageration. It offends as much as it communicates. It makes you look like an over-dramatizer, a misrepresenter.

          It is a staggering image. “You are like your former persecutors”.

        • Shingo
          May 8, 2010, 7:10 pm

          “It offends as much as it communicates.”

          You mean it offends you while communicates to others Witty.

          “It makes you look like an over-dramatizer, a misrepresenter.”

          Comming from the master of misrepresentation, over-dramatization and conflation.

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 1:00 pm

          Re Witty’s POV:
          1919 
For the first time, a European Nation comes to be led by a full-blooded Jew. 
Jew Bela Kun (Aaron Cohen) founds the world’s second communist government in 
Hungary after returning from a visit with his ethnic cousins in Russia. For 
one hundred and thirty-three days, from March 21st to August 1st, Bela Kun 
and his associates hold the Hungarian people in a state of abject terror 
that has rarely been surpassed for cruelty and horror. Hungary has often 
suffered at the hands of foreign invaders, but her worst suffering was at 
the hands of a Jewish countryman. Next time the Jews are whining about 
Hungary’s anti-semitism — or running for political office as an 
”American” — say the words “Bela Kun.” More information here: 
http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/kun.htm, and here 
http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/hat/hungary/fhungary1919a.htm. The 1919 
Yearbook (Dodd, Mead, Co., page 587) states that “Bela Kun’s government was 
made up almost entirely by Jews, who also made up the bulk of the ranks in 
the bureaucracy. At first the communists worked together with the socialists 
who were not extreme radicals, but more resembled social democrats and union 
members in other countries. However, Bela Kun would not find his staff among 
their ranks, but instead turned to the Jewish population to establish an 
almost completely Jewish bureaucracy.”

        • Citizen
          May 9, 2010, 1:04 pm

          Witty’s at the counter? Next!
          We all don’t like Witty’s soup,
          AT the very least, we don’t like his taste.
          So, sue us Witty.

    • eljay
      May 7, 2010, 9:03 pm

      >> But, the remedy for the outrage is not a single state, but reform.

      Be sure to pass that information along to the Israelis and not just the Palestinians.

    • syvanen
      May 7, 2010, 11:11 pm

      Witty strike again with:

      My holocaust education occurred with marrying into a family of survivors, real people, not pictures, not abstractions, not an ideology, not a fraud.

      The weren’t herded into walled ghettos.

      Mine too.

      But, they were not permitted to hold professions (even serving the Jewish community)

      Not my in laws. They did quite well.

      – Not occurring among Palestinians. There are Palestinian universities, Palestinian hospitals, Palestinian accountants, lawyers, etc.

      WTF does this have to do with your in laws difficulty in finding jobs.

      They were permitted NO free movement. West Bank Palestinians have the option of Jordanian passports, which permits them to travel internationally.

      Are you telling us that Palestinians have more rights of international travel then do your Israeli in-laws?

      Jews in Hungary were citizens of Hungary. Their property was taken without due process within the country that they were citizens.

      And, they were later shipped to death camps.

      Yes Richard I thing we all agree that the holocaust was really a bad thing.

      Hungarian Jews had a relatively “easy” time compared to German, Polish, Rumanian, Austrian, Dutch, Belgian, French Jews.

      Are you really saying that the Hungarian Jews did better than the German Jews? Sorry Richard Witty, I know, they experienced the Nazi extermination campaign as bad as did the German Jews.

      So now Richard Witty completes his essay with:

      Gazans are restricted by passage through Israeli borders AND through Egyptian.

      Yes what is the subject you want us to respond to?

      So RW goes on to say:

      Palestinians in the West Bank, in some ways have more rights and mobility than Palestinians that have lived three generations in Lebanese refugee camps.

      I get your outrage.

      But, the remedy for the outrage is not a single state, but reform.

      I give up. This is total nonsense. My good friends I will never again try to make sense of RW’s ravings, somehow I thought I could tonight.

      • Joseph Glatzer
        May 8, 2010, 12:19 am

        West Bank Palestinians with Jordanian passports are yellow passports which differentiate them from regular Jordanian passports. The requirements to travel with it renders it almost unusable. It is really a fantasy to suggest Palestinians who have Jordanian citizenship have freedom to travel internationally.

        • Chaos4700
          May 8, 2010, 12:35 am

          And if the Jordanian passport thing is fantasy, than the idea of Gazans having even a modicum of freedom to travel is sheer epic mythology.

        • Richard Witty
          May 8, 2010, 3:44 am

          They have freedom to travel internationally from Amman, which they can get to, maybe not through Tel Aviv.

          Your parallel was black/white Joseph, a partially accurate, partially innaccurate summary.

        • eGuard
          May 8, 2010, 3:52 am

          Witty, a Jordanian passport is not a reason for deportation from the West Bank?

        • Richard Witty
          May 8, 2010, 3:58 am

          Whats your point?

          I’m not saying that Palestinians are free. (Such knee-jerk).

          I’m saying that the parallel with nazi Germany may feel emotionally accurate in the sense of “something is wrong here”, but is nowhere near parallel, nor anywhere near as a extreme by a few powers.

          Liquids and gases are both considered fluid physically, but wtter flowing is a very very different phenomena than gas expanding/exploding.

          Accuracy in “advertising” is important.

        • eGuard
          May 8, 2010, 5:41 am

          They [Witty's family, survivors] were permitted NO free movement. West Bank Palestinians have the option of Jordanian passports, which permits them to travel internationally. If a West Bank Palestinian obtains a yellow passport, he might be deported or denied reentry by Israel.

        • eljay
          May 8, 2010, 9:03 am

          I’m saying that the parallel with nazi Germany may feel emotionally accurate in the sense of “something is wrong here”, but is nowhere near parallel, nor anywhere near as a extreme by a few powers.

          Liquids and gases are both considered fluid physically, but wtter flowing is a very very different phenomena than gas expanding/exploding.

          Accuracy in “advertising” is important.

          Hmmm…and yet the Free Gaza movement, accord to Mr. Witty, is “directly parallel to the efforts of determined Zionists following WW2 to conspicuously and dramatically land refugees in Israel”. I guess both are “emotionally accurate”, given that ships are/were involved, but the former is an attempt to break an on-going, illegal blockade of a besieged populace, while the latter was the promotion of illegal immigration to Mandate Palestine.

          So much for “accuracy in advertising”.

        • Joseph Glatzer
          May 10, 2010, 8:36 pm

          Palestinians of West Bank descent living abroad have the yellow Jordanian passports. My friend’s family is from Beit Jala, and they got Jordanian citizenship. However, she lives here in America because her father got a work permit. They have a green card application but it takes up to 6 months. She can’t leave the country without the temporary American travel document. If she gets that by the end of the Summer, she can then worry about the Jordanians. She has to update her “family book” for them to even let her into Jordan. For this, her mother has to fly with her to Amman.

          Witty: maybe you can pitch in the money for the extra flight since you think it’s so free and fun? And this is no guarantee she can even get into the West Bank, because Israel controls the crossing over the Allenby Bridge. What’s partially inaccurate about this terrible situation?

        • Richard Witty
          May 10, 2010, 9:27 pm

          There are other routes from Palestine to Amman, I’m told.

          I’m sure its more than inconvenient, but you don’t need to get malicious towards anyone that states something different than your exagerated parallel of naziism to Israel/Palestine.

    • thankgodimatheist
      May 7, 2010, 11:59 pm

      You don’t even warrant a response, Richard, so abjectly stated is your drivel. Too many lies and not enough time but the TFOOH of the day goes to your pathological zionist mind..Snake!

  16. homingpigeon
    May 8, 2010, 1:04 am

    A robust discussion indeed. I would agree that there is nothing to be gained except confusing and outraging people when we bluntly compare the Nazis to the Israelis or the Nakba to the Holocaust. Zionists are correct to complain that they have not yet established extermination camps as did the Nazis. We find ourselves in useless arguments about degrees of suffering. As long as it can be argued that the Israelis are not as bad as Nazis then they are vindicated it seems.

    However a more thoughtful approach would ask at what point did Nazi ideology become evil? I don’t think it was with the death of the six millionth extermination victim. Was it with the opening of the first concentration camp? With Krystallnacht? With the first laws discriminating against Jewish citizens? With the first drunken meeting of overgrown German boy scouts in a beer hall? With the publication of Mein Kampf? I would ask a Zionist to choose. Pick a date. Any date. Then compare what was happening with the Nazi movement at that time – actions, speeches, writings, laws, whatever, – with Zionism.

    “Discuss among yourselves.”

    • zamaaz
      May 8, 2010, 1:08 am

      That moment Adolf Hitler dreamt of power to rule Germany…

      • Chaos4700
        May 8, 2010, 1:34 am

        It’s too convenient to blame one man, or to remove responsibility for the conditions and the attitudes both inside and outside Germany that made Nazism possible.

        Granted, each person is responsible for exactly what they choose to act; Hitler deserves every bit of blame for what he chose to do. But that doesn’t let other people off the hook.

        • zamaaz
          May 8, 2010, 1:56 am

          Yes, on this point I agree with you;

          [It’s too convenient to blame one man, or to remove responsibility for the conditions and the attitudes both inside and outside Germany that made Nazism possible.]

          I just wanted to resply to homingpigeon’s question. In fact what I saw is that, Hitler and Nazism did not create the Germany national crisis to raise him up to power, but its the national crisis that made Hitler and Nazism rise to power. The Jewish issue was only a fodder to their ambitions… and that idea evolved into an evil obsession…

    • thankgodimatheist
      May 8, 2010, 1:26 am

      That’s a very thoughtful comment homingpigeon.

  17. annie
    May 8, 2010, 1:47 am

    joseph, a tad OT but when you mentioned compensation and repatriation set by the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust it occurred to me you might be interested in Yehouda Shenhav’s (Department of Sociology and Anthropology Tel Aviv University)excellent essay re Nationalism and Ethnicity Examined Through the Compensation Question.

    What do Palestinians and Arab-Jews Have in Common?

    reflect how jewish survivors were contemplating their own compensation they were simultaneously considering how they would settle the compensation issue wrt the land they were colonizing in palestine. it is quite creative actually but ethically challenged.

    more from Shenhav.

    ps, don’t feel guilty about anything, really. you are not to blame.

  18. Eva Smagacz
    May 8, 2010, 5:19 am

    figure out what Jews did that so enraged Germans that Germans turned into monsters.

    I accept that this sentence came out wrong. But it makes perfect opening to a number of deadly serious points. Nobody believes that Shoah came ex machina ; and if it was not God’s personal intervention, then cause and effect laws apply.

    Could Jewish community do something differently to modify outcome of Shoah? If you allow argument that they could, then you must allow argument they unwittinly participated in the Shoah as it was, rather than as it could have been. The difference may have been minimal, and lives saved may have been few, but there were strategies and tactics that they tried and lost or they never tried them at all. It means that Jewish European community caused (in logical, not moral) sense some of the Shoah deaths.

    This thinking is constant, but un-acknowledged companion of many in Jewish American community.

    Anger at Mondoweiss is directed at his publishing information and facts that show actions and attitudes of Jewish-Americans, Israelis and Zionists. In a negative light. People comment that he is endangering Jews in America. The logic goes that when Americans will find out negative things about Jews, the racist accidents will increase, this will cause breakdownnof law and order, anti-Jewish pogroms and may, in extremis require massive emmigration to Israel.

    Therefore open knowledge of misdeeds of Jewish minority in a their country of residence is a cause that may turn Americans into monsters.

    When everyday people turn into monsters, and attack other people is the question of how society is to act so as to change the outcome totally out of bounds?

    Is question how not to enrage the mob out of bounds?

    These are universal sociological questions and can apply to number of minorities: problems come big and small: Catholics have been accused of condoning priest abuse of minors and of mistreatment of unmarried mothers. French revolution came after perfect storm of financial crisis, political attacks on queen accused of dual loyalty, obscene income ineqality and machinations of one female fraudster that caused one set of lurid headlines after another. Deaths of lowly banking emploees in Greece came after riots caused by financial crisis caused by obscenely rich international bankers.

    There is always cause and effect.

    What could have Jewish minority in Germany do to prevent Shoah, or to save themselves from Shoah, or to modify severity of Shoah – these are important questions. We know that common wisdom on this blog is not to antagonise Americans with Jewish- amerian or Israeli misdeeds. Would not antagonising Germans with Jewish and Jewish-German misdeeds modify history somewhat?

    Is it racist or anti-Jewish to even ask?

    Why are Zionists angry about Philip publishing unvarnished truth

    • Richard Witty
      May 8, 2010, 7:44 am

      I’m not angry at Phil for publishing truth.

      I’m angry at Phil for publishing only partial truth, say during the period after the cease-fire ended, ignoring the resumption and then escalation of rockets fired from Gaza at civilians.

      Or, for not skeptically inquiring into the relationship between advocacy for a single-state and BDS.

      Or, on the history of the region that includes both the establishment of Jewish self-governance replacing persecution and genocide and the tragedy of displacement for Palestinians.

      BOTH. Not either/or.

      • eljay
        May 8, 2010, 8:06 am

        >> I’m angry at Phil for publishing only partial truth …

        You must get pretty angry at yourself for speaking only partial truth.

        • Chaos4700
          May 8, 2010, 10:04 am

          No dice. Witty has proven he has absolutely no shame or self awareness.

  19. Eva Smagacz
    May 8, 2010, 5:24 am

    Sorry wrote it on iPhone, editing is difficult. Wish comments had edit button

  20. Ismail
    May 8, 2010, 10:00 am

    Thanks, Joseph, for your enlightening piece. Any chance you can provide the sources for the quotations?

  21. Mooser
    May 8, 2010, 10:06 am

    Didn’t the Shoah take place in the context of a barbaric facist government in Germany and a world war? Why, yes, I think it did! As a matter of fact, two world wars, if you want to get sticky about it. That’ll turn people into monsters, right quick.

    Wow, am I glad I missed this one. Nothing like a completely irrelevant discussion on a beautiful day. And you all could have been riding your motorcycles.

    • Eva Smagacz
      May 8, 2010, 1:05 pm

      Mooser, other genocides took place in different geopolitical circumstances. Some minorities are attacked often, other less so. PsychopaticGod posed a question if minorities can have input into circumstances that culminate in majorities turning violently against them.

  22. Citizen
    May 8, 2010, 10:34 am

    RE: “Nobody believes that Shoah came ex machina.”
    I disagree. I’ve met many people who simply attribute the Shoah to a mental disease known as “anti-Semitism,” which, last time I looked wasn’t in the latest edition of the DSM. (The DSM-5 will be introduced in 2012.) Freud savagely attacked Christianity, while at the same 
time exalting Judaism and Zionism, in his book “Moses and Monotheism.” He 
also suggested that “anti-Semites” are mentally ill. If memory serves that was back in 1939?

    People get their half-baked notions from somewhere. People have always extrapolated from their own personal bad and good experiences, and people were reading way back; certainly in those decades before the 20th Century. Darwin was big, survival of the fittest, etc–and race theory. Politics has always scape-goated. What else might have affected their thoughts? What was it like living in the time leading up to Shoah?

    What if you read the May 1907 edition of National Geographic magazine?
    “…the revolutionary leaders nearly all belong to the Jewish race and the 
most effective revolutionary agency is the Jewish Bund.The government has 
suffered more from that race than from all of its other subjects combined. 
Whenever a desperate deed is committed it is always done by a Jew and there 
is scarcely one loyal member of that race in the entire Empire.” [From 
"National Geographic Magazine," May 1907, article titled "The Revolution In 
Russia", written by William E. Curtis, p. 313.]

    What if you read in 1918 Russia about the brutal murder of the Romanovs?
    The Last Days 
of the Romanovs by Robert Wilton, London, Thornton Butterworth Limited, 
1920: “The murder of the Tsar, deliberately planned by the Jew Sverdlov… 
and carried out by the Jews Goloschekin, Syromolotov, Safarov, Voikov and 
Yurovsky, is the act not of the Russian people, but of this hostile 
invader.”

    In 1919, during U.S. Congressional hearings, led by Senator Lee Overman, concerning 
liquor sales in Europe, testimony was given that the Russian Revolution is 
being led largely by Jews ( “Brewing and Liquor Interests and German 
and Bolshevik Propaganda,” report and hearings of, Vol. 3, 66th Congress, 
1st session, S. Docs. v.4, n.62, sworn testimony before U.S. Congress; 
dates: Feb. 11, 1919 to March 10, 1919, S. Res. 439/469).
    In Europe, people paid some attention to the one hundred and thirty-three days, from March 21st to August 1st, Bela Kun 
and his associates held the Hungarian people in a state of abject terror 
that had rarely been surpassed for cruelty and horror by foreign invaders. (The 1919 
Yearbook (Dodd, Mead, Co., page 587) states that “Bela Kun’s government was 
made up almost entirely by Jews, who also made up the bulk of the ranks in 
the bureaucracy. At first the communists worked together with the socialists 
who were not extreme radicals, but more resembled social democrats and union 
members in other countries. However, Bela Kun would not find his staff among 
their ranks, but instead turned to the Jewish population to establish an 
almost completely Jewish bureaucracy.”

    In 1920, on Feb 8, 1920, Winston Churchill warned the world about dangerous political and 
cultural impact of collectivist Jews in his article “Zionism vs. Bolshevism: 
A Struggle for the Soul of the Jewish People” (Feb. 8, Illustrated Sunday 
Herald, London). In it, Churchill said matter of factly that jews were 
behind a “world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization.”

    A 1926 national geographic article portrayed the very disproportionate Jewish domination of German roles of influence and power in Germany. Historians have documented this since very well.

    In 1929 
Germany, Kurt Tucholsky, a jew, published Deutschland, Deutschland uber Alles, attacking the churches, the police, the legal system, Hindenburg, 
the Social Democrats, trade union leaders, the industrious German middle 
class, and the military’s highest officers while he celebrated pacifism and 
sexual promiscuity. (Tucholsky was a notable of the Jewish Weimar 
satirists but he was far from the only one.) Tucholsky expressed contempt for 
German tradition and culture while he lived off of the wealth and tolerance 
that culture and tradition had built. The Weimar 
satirists were a catalyst in the alienation of the German people.

    The book “Communism In Germany” published in 1933, depicts a Germany under seige by 
Jewish Communists prior to Hitler taking power, going back to 1919. It says Jewish Marxists 
would often start riots in the major German cities which would last 3 or 4 
days.

    
March 24, 1933 Britain’s “Daily Express” (#10.258; Mar 23, ’33) reported Jews 
declare “War” on Germany at The International Jewish Boycott Conference, 
held in Amsterdam, designed to bring Germany to its knees financially.

    And so on.

    In 1933 the ADL, openly lobbied to stifle the sale of a book (“Conquest of a 
Continent” by Madison Grant (then well-known president of the New York 
Zoological Society) that failed to serve “Jewish interests.”

  23. Walid
    May 8, 2010, 1:15 pm

    The question raised by PG has been on my mind for many years and there is nothing sinister about him asking it here; what was it that the Jews had done to provoke so much unnatural hate in the Germans. At least PG is not denying it happened and he is asking why. The Center for Jewish History in its timeline on Jews in America wrote that in 1933, the year that Hitler made it to the top, “the American Jewish Congress declared its attention to organize a boycott on German goods to protest the anti-Semitic policies of the Nazi regime. Other organizations, such as the Jewish War Veterans and a new organization called the American League for the Defense of Jewish Rights, also initiate boycott activities. Some mainstream Jewish organizations were reluctant to follow suit, fearing a backlash against German Jews and anti-Semitic responses in America, but the boycott was endorsed by the American Federation of Labor.”

    Maybe this early version of Zionist boycotting of German goods played a part in the cause of the hate and vile actions of Nazis. I once asked a former WW II German officer what was it that the Jews had done to them to have deserved such a cruel punishment and he said that it had been nothing personal against the Jews but they were in Hitler’s way to do whatever he wanted to do because they controlled the banks, the press, radio and so on. I’m sure it wasn’t as simple as he made it sound but this too must have been another contributing factor. 1933 was 77 years ago and that control is still evident today.

    The 1938 Evian Conference at which the US and 40 other countries turned their backs on the German Jews and gave Hitler the green light to do with them whatever he wanted surely didn’t help. The Palestinians were made to pay for this.

  24. Citizen
    May 8, 2010, 3:58 pm

    RE: ” I once asked a former WW II German officer what was it that the Jews had done to them to have deserved such a cruel punishment and he said that it had been nothing personal against the Jews but they were in Hitler’s way to do whatever he wanted to do because they controlled the banks, the press, radio and so on. I’m sure it wasn’t as simple as he made it sound but this too must have been another contributing factor. 1933 was 77 years ago and that control is still evident today.”

    It is evident in the USA today?

  25. Brewer
    May 8, 2010, 4:38 pm

    Context.

    Always a ticklish subject.
    Whilst Israel supporters have no hesitation in sheeting responsibility for Israeli aggression home to the Palestinians’ election of Hamas and the actions of a few extremists, any suggestion that there were any legitimate grievances against any Jews in the early twentieth century carries a strong taboo.

    My reading of History indicates that anti-Jewish feeling in pre-war Germany did not arise at the instigation of the Nazi Party. There were pre-existing conditions that were used by the Nazi Party for political gain, but anti-Jewish sentiment had found expression well before Hitler came to any sort of power and influence.

    Bolshevism was regarded as the number one enemy of the majority of Germans and, as other posters have pointed out, it was widely perceived to be a Jewish invention and a Jewish aspiration. Germany’s Jewish population was regarded, in some circles, as a fifth column dedicated to the spread of the Bolshevism throughout Europe. Given the tumultuous circumstances in the newly formed Soviet Union, this was probably not entirely an irrational fear.
    Then, as today, over-representation of Jews in the media, academia and the arts was subject to much debate, not just in Germany but throughout Europe and, to some extent, the U.S. Lindberg, Ford, Friedman etc. were castigated for expressing such views.

    International Jewry was not entirely powerless however and a raft of figures such as Chaim Weitzman, Steven Wise, Louis Brandeis, Walter and Victor Rothschild, to mention a few, were not averse to influencing politics in the U.K. and U.S.
    The “Focus Group” (formerly the Anti-Nazi League) in Britain was founded and headed by Samuel Untermyer in the 1930s. It promoted and funded Churchill who became pro-War after joining. Some would say that this brought Britain into a War which Hitler had tried to avoid. No less an Historian than Basil Liddell Hart insisted this to be the case and diplomatic correspondence between Ribbentrop and Hitler confirms it.

    Steven Wise’s boycott of Germany (symbolized by the 1933 Daily Express of London’s “Judea Declares War on Germany” headline) was taken very seriously in Germany and the Transfer agreement forged between Germany and the Zionists was just one result. Public sentiment grew decidedly anti-Jewish, not just in Germany but also in Britain:

    “There are twenty thousand German Jews in England — in the professions, pursuing research, in chemical operations, etcetera. These all work against such an accommodation [with Germany].” “The Jews have got a big position in the press here. . . At last I am shaken. The Jews may drive us into war. I do not mean with any conscious purpose of doing so. They do not mean to do it. But unconsciously . . . their political influence is moving us in that direction.” – Lord Beaverbrook, March 1938 (Beaverbrook Papers, House of Lords Records Office).

    Nothing can explain or excuse racially based oppression and slaughter if we ignore the political realities of those who manipulate public opinion. European Jews were the victims not just of the Nazis but, like ordinary people everywhere including the Palestinians, they were the victims of powerful people, both of their own kind as well their enemies.

    Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.

    • Brewer
      May 8, 2010, 4:41 pm

      Damn. Forgot to close the Italics again which should have ended after the Beaverbrook attribution.

  26. Tobias
    May 8, 2010, 4:47 pm

    Whatever power a relatively small Jewish elite held in Europe pre and post WW1 and no matter the contribution or influence Jewish intellect had in and on the Bolshevist revolution and post WW1 Communist agitation, surely this cannot be reason for the barbarism of the Holocaust. Isn’t this just the Goldhagen thesis in a sense? Germans with a grudge, genocide with a reason? And besides to tar all Germans with the broad brush of Holocaust responsibility ignores the fact that the last election in 1933 with Hitler already in power, and despite all the intimidation, the violence and arrests, the Nazis still couldn’t get a majority, with only 43% of the electorate voting Nazi. Stalin and Mao murdered millions of people. Have you spent as much time wondering what their victims did to deserve why?

    • Chaos4700
      May 8, 2010, 4:52 pm

      I think you’re missing the point. This isn’t about assigning blame — it’s pretty clear who was responsible for the mass murders, and nothing justifies those.

      This is about learning history so that it doesn’t repeat.

      • Tobias
        May 8, 2010, 8:13 pm

        Chaos, I wish I could believe that but my sense is that this whole question – what did the Jews do to upset the Germans so badly – is nothing but anti-Semitic rubber necking, masquerading as historical investigation? If it is clear who was responsible for the mass murders? And it is. Then the case is closed. Period. The idea that history has overlooked the behavior of various elite Jews, which so enraged the Nazis, provoking the Holocaust and what is being posted here is an effort to prevent a future one doesn’t square. I think it speaks volumes that some would cut and pasted the drivel – that maybe – the Jews brought on their own misfortune. And forgive me if I am reading this wrong but in the context of what was the Jews role, the suggestion that this is ‘about learning history so that it doesn’t repeat’ has a sinister undertone; when the Jewish is identified, it will need be corrected or else another may occur. That sounds like a threat. I’m not suggesting you wrote with such malevolence but isn’t that the logic

        • Tobias
          May 8, 2010, 8:16 pm

          meant to write …. when the Jewish role is identified, it will need be corrected or else another holocaust may occur …

        • John Smithson
          May 10, 2010, 4:55 pm

          OK – So we are shut out of considering any role that Jewish or Zionist actions or efforts might have had in creating an environment where ordinary people did extraordinarily evil things. So its ‘all the german’s fault’ – we can assign blame only there?

          So Jews and Zionists could not have had any historical role simply because they were victimized? Well that will suit the Palestinians quite well in today’s environment, won’t it.

          I’ll take the truth (as far as we are able to find it) over what suits anyone’s political or racial agenda. Taking time to consider various causes of the Holocaust – any cause – can’t hurt, and might help.

          I still feel this is just like the thread on suicide bombing – some just never got past the idea that suicide bombing is ‘BAD’ and couldn’t begin to consider as valid a study of why and how it tends to occur.

        • Tobias
          May 10, 2010, 9:02 pm

          John, there is every reason to investigate and understand suicide bombing and what leads people to carry them out; and ultimately to try and rectify the root cause of such hopeless rage and anger.
          I think though this is totally different to the study of the Holocaust, which by the way is hardly a forlorn subject. I’m all for historical scholarship but my gripe is that the “historians” here are more political than professional, much more interested in scoring points than in revealing truth.
          I view the Holocaust as THE ultimate collective punishment with Jews undeserving of their Nazi cast role.
          In the same vein – while hardly the same league – I abhor modern day collective punishments, like those Israel regularly visits on Palestinians – particularly in Gaza.

        • John Smithson
          May 13, 2010, 10:49 am

          Couple thoughts. As a native born Catholic Irish kid from Chicago (who had nothing to do with the Holocaust nor the creation of Israel), seeing my country reacting to 9/11, etc and ending up in Iraq for unclear reasons (but now knowing that many made concerted efforts to get the US into war in order to further the interests of Israel), hearing my representative say ‘they’re getting their licks in while Bush is in office’ during the Gaza offensive last year (and knowing I am paying for it with money and my freedoms), taking my shoes off before flights, and seeing Jewish men lead Goldman Sachs and the Fed, and Treasury – with the current debt problems (now hearing GS sold debt to Greece and shorted it) – I remain sanguine, but am concerned what Joe six pack will do when he figures out ‘what all these Jews have been up to’.

          Our boys were sent to war, our money goes overseas. The Taliban and Khalid (KSM) tell us they hate us because of our policy vis a vis Israel-Palestine, but that signal is degraded/filtered…why? by whom?

          I think your blinders regarding what triggered Nazi actions remain on your head at your own peril – potentially. It’s not an attractive truth, but whatever the truth is – it should be argued out in the full light of day.

  27. Eva Smagacz
    May 8, 2010, 7:10 pm

    If I could speculate, I would argue that Jews in Germany were feared because Russian Soviet Revolution destroyed very fabric of Russian Society. Soviet Union abolished private property, everything, but the clothes on people’s backs, became nationalised. Soviets disbanded all the ministries, abolished justice system. It was a real fear.
    It is hardly a truism that Government is impotent if it does not control country’s money, and if it is muzzled and unabled to reach people via mass media.
    The first issue tackled on Anger Management courses is to challenge the perspective that violent person allways carries with them, and it is conviction that people feel superior. I guess any minority that openly looks down it’s collective noses at the majority, can be guaranteed violence sooner rather than later.

    Next, I think that the insular the minority is much less able to count on the goodwill of it’s neighbours.

    Finally, Politicians who don’t have at least some access to the public media would try to reach electorate using populist arguments. And what better argument than blaming everything on immigrants and foreigners!

    • lyn117
      May 9, 2010, 1:38 am

      “If I could speculate, I would argue that Jews in Germany were feared because Russian Soviet Revolution destroyed very fabric of Russian Society.”

      I have to disagree. The Jews in Germany were feared mainly because right-wing ideologues played to people’s fears, thereby raising the fear level. Bad as the bolshevik excesses were, communism had a clear anti-elitist message of working-class empowerment, equality, brotherhood and internationalism. I’m sure even if prominent in the leftist and communist circles the German Jews were even more prominent in the bourgeoisie, from lower-middle-class shopkeepers to bankers and major capitalists. Thus, a part of the elite, and as elites even more of a target for people who’s inferiority complexes make them susceptible to political manipulation, demagogues telling them they’ve been dealt an injustice or that the elite has somehow stolen their rightful inheritance. Which is what, in fact, oppressive governments and capitalists in their less benign mode often do… but anyway

      Of course, it’s telling that the Nazis went after the communists and leftists first, those (at least in word) opposed to labor exploitation, rather than anyone who would have been profiting from wretched working conditions. I don’t mean to praise the Stalinists either.

      Blaming everything on immigrants and foreigners may be a great populist tactic for a demagogue (I agree with you there), but the German Jews weren’t foreigners or immigrants. They weren’t particularly insular either.

  28. wondering jew
    May 8, 2010, 7:24 pm

    A discussion of the causes of Jew hatred is appropriate if handled with sensitivity. To expect such sensitivity from many of the participants of this comments section is ludicrous.

    • Shingo
      May 8, 2010, 7:41 pm

      It’s not at all ludicrous, because Jew hatred is not tolerated, norshould it be.

    • Eva Smagacz
      May 9, 2010, 5:14 pm

      Wondering Jew,

      You wrote:
      A discussion of the causes of Jew hatred is appropriate if handled with sensitivity .
      Causes of Jew hatred should be divided into two categories: Racism, and here I don’t really believe in need to be sensitivite, and Antagonising Actions, Beliefs and Behaviours, which, I can understand, can be a sore point – Think dual loyalty, feelings of tribal superiority, tribal nepotism, anti – goy attitudes, etc……, which I totally agree must be handled appropriately, without sweeping generalisations, which would land them in Racism category. Also note, that we are discussing some of the Jewish communities, not all the Jewish communities. Some host countries had displayed less hostility over millenia towards their Jewish minorities.

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