Post-Gaza massacre, it’s easy to see the changing discourse about Israel/Palestine across the country among Americans and American Jews.
The diverse coalition that supported the divestment resolution at U.C. Berkeley, including prominent Jewish voices like Judith Butler, Naomi Klein and Noam Chomsky, is but one indication of how Israel’s war crimes in Gaza and the ongoing blockade have shaken people to the core. It’s part of the “consequences” that Israel is dealing with after the world witnessed the “truth” in Gaza–one of the main points Norman Finkelstein makes in his latest book. As Finkelstein said at a recent lecture at New York University, most students are not going to run around defending a state that drops white phosphorus on a trapped and densely-packed civilian population. Over 300 dead children, the massacre of the Samouni family, the continued closure of Gaza from the outside world, the Goldstone report—that’s a big reason why dissent about Israel is growing.
The New York Times continues to ignore the gigantic elephant in the room named Gaza in a piece that ran yesterday titled, “On Israel, Jews and Leaders Often Disagree.” Instead, the Times points to the diplomatic spat between Obama and Netanyahu over the construction of illegal settlements in East Jerusalem as the reason why there are “serious questions about whether the traditional leadership of the American Jewish world is fully supported by the mass of American Jews.”
That’s probably true, but it’s certainly not the whole story.
It follows a pattern of corporate media when discussing Israel/Palestine: the emphasis is on the "peace process,” the leadership of the Palestinian Authority, and the Israeli government. There’s very little discussion about the people of Gaza’s suffering, the leadership of Hamas, and the deep divisions in Palestinian politics caused, in part, by the U.S. arming Fatah and trying to overthrow Hamas after the Islamist group won elections in 2006.
It’s as if the media is actively aiding the continuation of a “West Bank first” approach pushed by the Bush administration, and continued by Obama, where Hamas is ignored and isolated instead of being seen as an important player in Palestinian politics, and the Palestinian Authority is propped up by the U.S. and Israel.
The times may be a-changing at the grassroots, but whether it’s ignoring the Gaza massacre when discussing why some American Jews are sharply criticizing Israel and joining the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement, or ignoring the politics of Gaza when talking about a Palestinian state and the “peace process,” the Times is lagging behind.
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And note this claim that the NYT prints without any refutation from the other side–
““You know, the Israelis are not the ones launching rockets and placing fighters in houses with children inside.”
They are part of the dumbing down effort of pretty much the entire US media. From this echo chamber it won’t be long until we read that one party says the earth is flat and the other says not so. The media’s responsibility will be to report what both sides said without regard to facts that the media says would only confuse the addled public. Dumbing down can only lead to more dumbing down.
Phil. you really know how to read these things — reading for what it ways and for what it doesn’t say. Thanks.
Obama is supporting the idea of an indirect peace talk between I v P; Mitchell is playing shuttle Kissinger (Mr “Support the second Berlin airlift circa 1973 otherwise Jews will nuke goy people–to Nixon, the anti-semite).
The indirect peace talk currently advocated is decades behind the prior direct peace talks. Obama, what a lame fuck.
“decades behind” — that’s the sentiment I was just thinking about wrt J-Street: they’re frantic to get Two State Solution, the solution to the entire issue.
Except it’s not and J Street knows it, knows it very well: “Well, yes, 2 state, but whose version? whose idea of two-state? Who gets the water? What about the wall? the roads? the barriers? the Golan? But YES, PLEASE, write to your congressperson, pester the hell out of him/her to solve Israel’s problems: 2 state solution. And while you’re on the phone, call Obama, tell him to drop everything — health care, unemployment, deficits, Gulf Coast/Louisiana environmental disaster — not important: TWO STATE Solution! He owes it to Israel! Only the US can do it, Israel can’t do it….
I thought this part of the article was interesting:
With many of their children intermarried, they pondered what meaning Israel would hold for their grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
“Let’s face it, with each generation we are getting less and less Jewish,” said Irving Hershman, an insurance agent who was raised in an Orthodox home.
He predicted, with regret, that the bonds between American Jews and Israel would dissipate in 5 or 10 generations.
—————-
This is absolutely true, intermarriage while not bad, will inevitably lead to the disappearance of a significant liberal Jewish community in several generations in the US. This is something one just has to accept.
Yeah, romantic love is really lethal–why leave it to tribes? Romeo, Romeo… Hath not a Palestinian….? Timmy Mcveigh, I can hear you…
The discourse is meandering, not “changing”.
The complex, the knot, constructed by mutual aggression and hostility over an extended period of time, is not addressed by BDS nor by complaints about “the US fucks up everything”.
The key word in your post on the affects of US policy is the word “partially”.
It is still Hamas’, Fatah’s, Israel’s responsibility to reconcile rather than kill each other.
Hamas’ leadership prior to the near end of the cease-fire was laudable. They actually did organize the discipline to not shell civilians, to not undertake aggressive actions like abductions.
But, at critical points their “leadership” was not leadership in the slightest, and although Israel is to blame for phosphorous, Hamas is to blame for threatening to wipe the streets with Zionists blood (indicating that they were prepared and intended intense guerilla resistance). In response to those plausible threats, the IDF undertook a much more cautious strategy relevant for preparation for a massive land assault, which they undertook.
But, instead of defending the Gazan civilians, like heroic cadre willing to die for their people, they hid.
Maybe that was rational. But, general sequence of Israeli preparations and execution was also rational militarily.
Three hundred children didn’t die because Israel targeted children. Three hundred children died mostly because Israel executed a military response that was plausibly rational for the condition.
Hamas still hold Gilad Shalit, and is not satisfied with 600 prisoners in exchange. And, although noone can be sure, its widely reported that the holding of Shalit is the condition that holds up the relaxation of the border crossings.
Its a risk for Hamas. To give up Shalit is to have nothing, and Israel has been brutal and hates Hamas with a passion, much more of a passion than even for Al Aqsa Martyrs which willingly gave up their weapons to the PA police.
And yes, Gilad Shalit…. remember Horst Wessel? Now, didn’t he represent the Zeitgist?
“But, instead of defending the Gazan civilians, like heroic cadre willing to die for their people, they hid.”
How do an unarmed population fight drones / tanks / F-16s / Apaches?
“Three hundred children didn’t die because Israel targeted children. Three hundred children died mostly because Israel executed a military response that was plausibly rational for the condition.”
Right – we’re supposed to believe you actually read the Goldstone Report when you make idiotic statements like that. What was “plausibly rational”about herding the Al Samouni family into a house then bombing the house? What was plausibly rational about destroying or damaging ~ 50,000 civilian homes? Tearing up agricultural land? Killing tens and tens of thousands of *chickens*?
You’ll rationalise anything it seems you limp excuse for a human.
“Hamas still hold Gilad Shalit,”
And Israel still holds ~300 Palestinians in administrative detention. Your point?
“its widely reported that the holding of Shalit is the condition that holds up the relaxation of the border crossings.”
It was widely reported in 2008 that Hamas adhering to the cease fire would result in the end of the blockade – and we know how that went. The screamingly obvious fact is that Israel doesn’t want to and will not end the blockade.
The point is that Hamas has path to improve life for the civilians that they claim to be responsible for.
Israel reportedly offered 600 Gazan prisoners in exchange for Shalit, but Hamas turned it down.
Sumud,
You didn’t read my comments stating that the reason for the more “cautious” (for IDF personnel) approach than tit-for-tat, or for an exposed ground campaign, was Hamas’ assertions that they would “soak the streets of Gaza with the Zionists’ blood” (or something to that effect).
With the “success” of the Hezbollah fighting, Israel concluded on the basis of obviously faulty intelligence and of Hamas’ threats that they meant it.
So many speak of proportionality but always after the fact. Military planning isn’t after the fact, its anticipatory.
Because of Hamas’ bluster and indiscipline in initiating firing on civilians in the first place, the streets ran only with Gazan civilians blood. Blood that they didn’t deserve to have running.
Both were excessive, both were responsible. Name it already.
“The point is that Hamas has path to improve life for the civilians that they claim to be responsible for.”
Yes, they have done a great deal to pursue that path and Israel has demonstrated that path is a myth. For example, Hamas agreed to homor or prior agreements signed by the PA. They agreed to accept the Arab Peace Initiative. They agree to a 2 state settlement and they agreed to a ceasefire. Israel either rejected or violated all of these.
“Israel reportedly offered 600 Gazan prisoners in exchange for Shalit, but Hamas turned it down.”
No evidene of course, yiou jst feel it in your gut right Witty? Perhaps it was the tone Witty?
What evidence do you have that Hamas offered to accept prior agreements signed by the PA?
The offers for Shalit were referenced in Haaretz for months, years.
Hamas turned it down.
“You didn’t read my comments stating that the reason for the more “cautious” (for IDF personnel) approach than tit-for-tat, or for an exposed ground campaign, was Hamas’ assertions that they would “soak the streets of Gaza with the Zionists’ blood” ”
We’ve heard you make that claim before Witty, but you have never cited any sources which back up this claim. Frankly, ti reads like one of your baseless theories that you tend to pull out of your ass.
You’re just lying like you always do
“So many speak of proportionality but always after the fact. Military planning isn’t after the fact, its anticipatory.”
How do you know that Witty? are you an adviser to the IDF?
“Because of Hamas’ bluster and indiscipline in initiating firing on civilians in the first place, the streets ran only with Gazan civilians blood. Blood that they didn’t deserve to have running.”
False Witty. Israel fired on civilians from day 1. Israel promised Gaza they would visit a Shoh on Gaza.
“Both were excessive, both were responsible. Name it already.”
Only one side weer commited to carrying out a massacre.
Only one side started it. The same side that broke the ceasfire.
We read your comments Witty. We just don’t pay them any attentino becasue they are lies.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=125508§ionid=351020202
Tel Aviv late last year agreed to release 450 Palestinian prisoners demanded by Hamas.
But it offered to release four senior Palestinian resistance figures, Marwan Barghouti, Ahmed Sa’adat, Ibrahim Hamad and Abdullah Barghouti, only on the condition that the influential prisoners were deported to the Gaza Strip or a third country.
Hamas rejected the exile of the Palestinian detainees and vowed it would not give in to Israeli demands.
Sorry, I exagerated the number.
“What evidence do you have that Hamas offered to accept prior agreements signed by the PA?”
In 2005 Hamas signed the Cairo Declaration of 2005 and the National
Reconciliation Document, which, as interpreted by Haniyeh and
Maschaal, means that Hamas “fully respects” the previous agreements
between the Palestinians and Israel.
“The offers for Shalit were referenced in Haaretz for months, years.”
Rubbish. You can’t produce them becasue they don;t exist. Liar.
“Hamas turned it down.”
False.
BTW. In 2006, Prime Minister Haniyeh of Hamas wrote to Pres. George Bush
offering a 20 year ceasefire with Israel during which there could be
an exchange of ambassadors, in other words, official recognition of
Israel.
Somehow shelling civilian cities for 9 days is not an attempted mass murder?
Your denial is amazing. Hamas is not an innocent party here.
How do you deport someone from the land they were born on, Witty?
The Nakba continues, one Gandhi at a time.
And how many people died, Witty?
Please show some documentation, as you are so insistent of it from me.
Because over three hundred children died in Gaza, and you don’t consider that mass murder, do you?
How can there be an exchange of ambassadors if Gaza is not a state?
No Witty calls that collateral damage.
So Gaza is unoccupied sovereign land when you need the “land for peace” canard, but its not a state when you need the “there’s no such thing as Palestine” canard, huh.
The se reason it can have a president and a PM and not be a state.
Nice call Chaos. Witty gets entangled on hid own corn maize of propaganda.
Most likely a majority were collateral damage, put in the line of fire by negligent policies and actions by Hamas and cadre.
Any that killed negligently or intentionally, deserve accountability.
You quoted that Haniyeh signed some documents offering an exchange of ambassadors (no citation yet).
Was that before or after the civil conflict in Palestine? Before or after, Hamas assumed control over Gaza only?
Get that people?
Hamas attacks and no Israelis die. That is mass murder.
Hundreds of children die because Hamas put then right in harms way — in homes, in schools, in hospitals, etc. — and that’s not mass murder.
See your son at Nuremberg, Witty.
“Somehow shelling civilian cities for 9 days is not an attempted mass murder?”
You claim that firing rockets for 9 days is attemptedmass murder, but insist that bombing civilians and killing 1,400 is not.
Orwell was an amateur compared to you Witty.
“Was that before or after the civil conflict in Palestine? Before or after, Hamas assumed control over Gaza only?”
Cam you not read Witty? The dates are clearly mentioned. I know toy only ever read headlines, but at least make an effort.
Civil conflict, Witty? Do you mean this?
“Most likely a majority were collateral damage, put in the line of fire by negligent policies and actions by Hamas and cadre.”
Don’t blame drunk drivers for killing pedestrians, it’s the fault of the people who risk their lives by walking.
Again,
Before Israel responded in any militarily, Hamas and cadre shelled Israeli civilians for 9 days, escalating that shelling to greater volume of rockets, greater range, directed at larger cities, and occassionally with better accuracy.
The rockets were fired at civilian cities, a war crime (before there was a war), attempted mass murder, yes.
The rockets were fired with the permission of the central authority within Hamas (maybe reluctantly, maybe not).
Again,
With the assertions from Hamas officials that they would stick to Israelis that invaded by ground, Israeli became far more cautious and anonymous prior to ground assault. Conducting air campaigns is standard preparation for ground assaults in war.
It was warned that Israel would respond harshly if the shelling continued and Hamas’ response was to escalate.
And, again, Hamas cadre hid. Maybe they had to, likely most of the civilians had nowhere else to go.
Anger is a car hurtling downhill, a little drunk, in a projectile.
Witty reminds me if those lunatics who came out in support of Israel during the Gaza massacre. One guy said, they’re forcing us to kill their children.
Was that you Witty? Maybe that explains why Witty is so incensed by Max Bloomenthals’s video’s. Witty became a celebrity that day for all the wrong reasons.
The question remains. You mentioned the year. A lot happened in 2006.
Its not an entirely untrue statement.
“guy said, they’re forcing us to kill their children.”
But, in the present you are evading questions, particularly for specific documentation of the assertions and significance of the assertions that you describe Hamas as making.
How could Israel have response militarily when they initiated the war with the November 4th attack, which broke the ceasefire?
Perhaps you go used to having a second go when you could start the game again when you weren’t winning, but you don’t get to arbitrarily reset the clock once you break a ceasefire and pretend the scores are even.
“The question remains. You mentioned the year. A lot happened in 2006.”
The date reads 2005 you idiot.
“Its not an entirely untrue statement.”
I knew it was you. You’re a Kahanist in drag.
“But, in the present you are evading questions, particularly for specific documentation of the assertions and significance of the assertions that you describe Hamas as making.”
Are you too lazy to Google it Witty? I can do it for you when I get back to my desk, but you just don’t want to do you?
“In 2006, Prime Minister Haniyeh of Hamas wrote to Pres. George Bush
offering a 20 year ceasefire with Israel during which there could be
an exchange of ambassadors, in other words, official recognition of
Israel. ”
Still waiting for citations.
Witty demonstrates yet again that there is no such thing as a liberal Zionist. A liberal Zionist is a simply aZipnist extremist who talks genocide with a quiet voice.
“I knew it was you. You’re a Kahanist in drag. ”
Not in the slightest. It is a source of great anguish to us liberal Zionists, when Israel is forced into a warring setting (from a mix of Zionist fanatics and Palestinian fanatics escalating tensions, that civilians get caught in the middle of).
There is NO EXCUSE for the initiation and then escalation of shelling from Gaza. I get what stimulated it, but there is no excuse for it.
It was an initiation of war crimes, chosen.
A liberal Zionist is one that desires to live and let live.
In the event that unilateral aggression is directed at Israeli civilians, the only rational response is defensive.
“Still waiting for citations.”
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=safari&rls=en&q=In+2006,+Prime+Minister+Haniyeh+of+Hamas+wrote+to+Pres.+George+Bush+offering+a+20+year+ceasefire+with+Israel+during+which+there+could+be+an+exchange+of+ambassadors,+in+other+words,+official+recognition+of+Israel.&ei=-YTjS5SZC4SKlweVkaiTAg&sa=X&oi=revisions_inline&ct=unquoted-query-link&ved=0CBEQgwM
Tell that to the hundreds of children you describe as “collateral damage” instead of mass murder.
You really do value your own fingernail more than any number of Palestinian lives, don’t you?
Thanks for the google list.
You saved Shingo some work.
What was happening at the time? Do you think that Haniyeh felt that it was likely that George Bush would then put pressure on Israel on the basis of single reported letter?
“In the event that unilateral aggression is directed at Israeli civilians, the only rational response is defensive.”
In the real world Israel kills the bulk of the civilians and assumes it has the right to inflict violence whenever it wants and often does so. It also imposes a brutal blockade and is constantly stealing more land. Of course for the “liberal Zionist” of RW’s ilk, none of this matters in the slightest. Only Israeli lives are worthy of a violent response.
Not sure why RW doesn’t just put it like that. Why all the rhetoric about rationality and so forth? It’s very confusing.
Ahem.
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804
Um, Richard, there’s this thing called google. It’s very simple to use. Anyway, shouldn’t you be looking these things up for yourself, rather than throwing out endless requests, almost as if you’re some sort of troll? One would think you were here to waste time.
Most likely a majority were collateral damage, put in the line of fire by negligent policies and actions by Hamas and cadre.”
As usual, you admit to manufacturing bullshit.
“Any that killed negligently or intentionally, deserve accountability.”
Only to some extent right Witty? We can’t afford to hurt Israel’s feelings now can we?
There are aspects of Israel’s strategy and behavior that are irrational and excessive.
The decision as to the scope of the military campaign in Gaza was a contreversy from day one, but with rationally supporting basis for the scope that they pursued.
The hot adjective words make it difficult to discuss a contextual military decision process.
You’ve commented that you thought only a tit-for-tat approach would be proportional and hence “just”. Israelis, and most states don’t regard that as the appropriate or just response to terror directed at civilians.
I don’t either.
There is no rational way to hold Israeli behaviors as innocent, and there is no rational way to hold Hamas behaviors as innocent.
“Still waiting for citations.”
While refusing to give any.
“Haaretz has obtained a written message from Haniyeh sent to Bush via an American professor who met with Haniyeh in the Gaza Strip. Haniyeh asked Bush to lift the boycott of the Hamas government and pressure Israel to maintain stability in the region.”
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/in-2006-letter-to-bush-haniyeh-offered-compromise-with-israel-1.257213
Not in the slightest.
Yes, absolutely.
Your dialogue and ideology is indistinguishable from those lunatics.
“It is a source of great anguish to us liberal Zionists”
Yes, the liberal Zionists are the opes that cry while shooting, right Witty?
“…when Israel is forced into a warring setting”
Which hasn’t happened since 1973.
“There is NO EXCUSE for the initiation and then escalation of shelling from Gaza.”
If that is true Witty, then would you have demanded that Israel refrain from retaliation had Hamas sneaked in to Tel Aviv and murdered 6 Israelis during a ceasefire. If your answer is NO or you refuse to answer (also taken to be a NO) then clearly, there is an excuse.
I get what stimulated it, but there is no excuse for it.”
So your word is “stimulated”. not escalated or atacked.
“It was an initiation of war crimes, chosen.”
I thogh you said war crimes was a loaded statement Witty. Are you now comfortable with using it both ways, or do you reserve it exclusively for Israel’s enemies?
you post that link probably 3 times a week, what exactly are you proving with it? is that like your go to link, which will debunk all hasbara tactics?
you could at least explain what you think you are proving w/ your ‘go to guy’
“It was an initiation of war crimes, chosen.”
Yeah, it’s a shame Israel is constantly choosing to inflict violence on Palestinians. Land theft, unjust blockades, lawless assassinations even when arrests are possible, a constant backdrop of killing and injurying innocent Palestinians.
Maybe if Gore or Kerry had been president, the chain of events might have been different.
I don’t understand the views of Donald and Shingo, that with a couple public statements by Haniyeh (that conflicted with other public statements made by other Hamas officials), that the attitude towards Hamas would magically turn on a dime.
The effect of the terror campaigns and very violent civil conflict with Fatah was to isolate Hamas.
Here’s another oft-repeated relevant link that yonira can play stupid and not bother reading:
Re-igniting Violence: How do Ceasefires End?
Remember! Every time you click a link, a small amount of the proceeds is forwarded to the fund to fund literacy education for South Dakotans flavor of the day religious converts.
“You’ve commented that you thought only a tit-for-tat approach would be proportional and hence “just”. Israelis, and most states don’t regard that as the appropriate or just response to terror directed at civilians.”
Not what I said, but you don’t do very well interpreting others. As for what Israel and most states consider appropriate, I guess you think Palestinians should be equipped with the heavy weaponry needed for them to engage in a more than proportionate response to Israeli terrorism. I don’t agree, Richard–unlike you, I think a massive Palestinian response that would kill enormous numbers of Israeli civilians would be a war crime in itself. Two wrongs don’t make a right, Richard. Please, refrain from advocating such policies. It hurts reconciliation efforts if your emotional reaction to the injuries Israel has inflicted on the Palestinians leads you into advocating such horrific levels of violence.
Can you just go ahead and blame the Holocaust on Hamas? We know you want to. You blame them for damn near everything else. Charred babies’ corpses dropped by Zionists in fighter jets whose bombs, fuel, the planes themselves, are all provided by the US, care of AIPAC? Hamas’ fault, apparently.
It is a good effort to urge that Israelis moderate its defensive approach.
And, a good effort to humanize Palestinians, so that people and leaders will think hard and more than twice before undertaking harsh military efforts.
Its also a good effort to think realistically, so that your efforts actually affect change, rather than just condemn and alienate.
You often apply changes in identity to suggest a color-blind application of principles. I suggest the same of you.
Walk in the shoes of an Israeli government official, responsible for the safety of Israeli civilians.
We are in agreement that the background of blockade and suppression need to change.
But, also consider your response to repeated rocket assaults on Israeli civilians, including what it means as a precedent (“we’ve got them on the run”)
are you joking me Chaos. didn’t we go over this, if you forgot here is where the data comes from.
http://www.israelpolitik.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/gaza_fact_sheet.pdf
remember this? when you questioned my linking to that, but really I just baited the shit out of you. well i am baiting you again. isn’t that from the Israeli consulate in NYC?
I think the huffington post donates their money to the Gays of Gaza. you should move there and see how well your type are treated in Muslim countries.
“you post that link probably 3 times a week, what exactly are you proving with it?”
It’s posted 3 times a week because you morons don’t seem to get it.
“is that like your go to link, which will debunk all hasbara tactics”
Among other things, it does debunk Hasbara very well indeed.
“you could at least explain what you think you are proving w/ your ‘go to guy’”
The same as always, thatyou guys are liars. Nothing complicated.
“The effect of the terror campaigns and very violent civil conflict with Fatah was to isolate Hamas.”
Yes, Richard, the US-instigated civil war, where our government persuaded Fatah to try and overturn the results of a democratic Palestinian election, was a travesty and set back the cause of reconciliation between Palestinians, making peace that much more remote. I am glad that you agree with this.
“I don’t understand the views of Donald and Shingo, that with a couple public statements by Haniyeh (that conflicted with other public statements made by other Hamas officials), that the attitude towards Hamas would magically turn on a dime.”
I quite agree, Richard. The endless statements by Israel claiming that they want peace, coupled with their continued expansionism and daily violence and humiliation directed at Palestinians certainly don’t mesh well together.
I don’t get it. You keep posting the same thing, basically, that I am and that’s supposed to be your refutation or what I posted? “Ha! So you think 2 +2 = 4? Well look at this! This says 2 + 2 = 4! So you’re wrong!”
Seriously, yonira. I literally cannot fathom a method by which you could make yourself look more like a dumbass.
Yeah, we saw what Israeli moderates are capable of in 2006 and in 2008.
“Can you just go ahead and blame the Holocaust on Hamas? ”
Chaos, Chaos, you’re thinking too small. I for one blame Hamas for the Mongol conquests, the Black Death, the fall of the Roman Empire, and unreasonably high auto insurance rates. Anything less would be apologetics for terror. Don’t be an apologist for terror, Chaos. It prevents the process of reconciliation.
Fix your own damn country, Donald! FIX YOUR OWN DAMN COUNTRY! :)
lol, are you off your meds, remember we went through this 3 days ago and you said my link was hasbara propaganda, did you change your mind?
what is it proving!!! that is all i ask
are you joking me Chaos. didn’t we go over this, if you forgot here is where the data comes from.
“http://www.israelpolitik.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/gaza_fact_sheet.pdf remember this?”
Wow, a link from the Israeli government. How compelling!!
It even admits that the November 4th attack (which it falsely claims was to prevent an abduction), was the reason for the end to the ceasefire( it calls it a lull).
“I think the huffington post donates their money to the Gays of Gaza. you should move there and see how well your type are treated in Muslim countries.”
Why, so he can be bombed or incinerated by Israel?
Simple, simpleton. When there is peace, Israel ends it by murdering a Palestinian. Sometimes several. Not rarely, by the dozens.
You stated that an appropriate defensive response was limited to attacking the specific gun positions (unless they were in civilian neighborhoods, which almost all are).
The intention of a more involved military effort was to stop the shelling decisively, permanently.
I don’t know if you would have made the same or a different decision (of extent of military effort) if you were morally and legally responsible to uphold the obligations of your office.
I would hope that a more experienced and moderate Israeli government would have adopted a more moderate approach.
The Lebanon war was another conflict in which the narratives vary greatly, but the Lebanon war was a model (reformed tactically, if not morally). It was a model in both military strategy, and in political pattern.
The theme of “we’ve got them on the run” was one of the reasons that the Israeli military response in Lebanon was so intense.
An attempted abduction in the West Bank, a successful abduction of Shalit near Gaza, then another abduction in Lebanon. The left interpretation of the events was that Hezbollah was independant of Hamas and other abductions. The interpretation of the Israeli military and populace was of the urgent need to stop the trend before it became a repeat of the terror campaigns by multiple factions a couple years earlier.
The most important effort is turn down the heat, reciprocally, so that it does result in relaxation and elimination of institutions of suppression of Palestinians, AND elimination of violent threats towards Israelis.
For those that do not accept Israel’s existence fundamentally, that is not one of their efforts. A millenial “resistance” is urged, even if with temporary lulls.
“It is a good effort to urge that Israelis moderate its defensive approach.”
What about urge that Israelis end their aggressive approach?
“Its also a good effort to think realistically, so that your efforts actually affect change, rather than just condemn and alienate.”
Sure, you should try ti some time.
“Walk in the shoes of an Israeli government official, responsible for the safety of Israeli civilians.”
You mean like Tzipi Livni who told the wold that Israel rejected a long ceasefire because it was not in Israel’s strategic interests? Apaprently, the safety of Israeli civilians comes second to strategic interests.
“We are in agreement that the background of blockade and suppression need to change.”
Nop we’re not. You support the blockade and only suport change on Israel’s terms.
“But, also consider your response to repeated rocket assaults on Israeli civilians”
None of which were happeneing betwene July and November 4th of 2008.
Give it a year or so. I plan on joining either an activist group or an NGO after I’m finished with school.
good, in all seriousness, go to gaza as a homosexual and tell me how welcoming they are.
Then why did they attack the water treatment plant, Witty? Why did Israel attack various UN facilities? Why are fishing boats still being attacked off the coast?
It’s safer than going to Texas or Oklahoma. On that specific account, at any rate.
“I quite agree, Richard. The endless statements by Israel claiming that they want peace, coupled with their continued expansionism and daily violence and humiliation directed at Palestinians certainly don’t mesh well together.”
It always amuses me though, how the Zionist propagandists hold up inflammatory statements by Hamas et all as though they were carved in stone, but simultaneously dismiss moderate and peaceful statements as hiving no credibility.
Come to think of it, it’s a common theme with Israel and the US. Apply the fill force of the law on others, but hit the veto button when the laws are used againt us.
Chaos, be reconciliation. Wrap yourself in its soft embrace, savor its taste, breathe deep and inhale its aroma. Admit my greater wisdom, drink of the ambrosia of my learning, bow down to my greater guruism and wipe your head clean of the heresies of “dissent”. Only by beginning to blame Hamas for all that is wrong with the world can you achieve enlightenment.
Okay, this isn’t that accurate a copy of Witty, but I’m not doing a strict imitation here. More like an interpretive dance, really, only on a keyboard.
I’m still waiting for Witty to give me an answer asto whether he would oppose an Usraelivretaliation to an attack by Hsmas that lead to 6 Israelis being killed in Tel Aviv during a ceasefire.
Richard, I quite agree. Israel’s military is intimately entangled with its civilians, so I don’t quite know how precision strikes by Palestinians can completely avoid killing some Israeli civilians, but still, if we in the US provide them with highly accurate missiles they can put warheads of low explosive power on them and minimize the collateral damage. Until there is a just peace, that’s the only sort of violence that would be acceptable. Your suggestion that a Palestinian leader might wish to use much greater force to teach the Israelis a lesson once and for all (no more ethnic cleansing, no more occupation, no more blockade, no more random violence, unjust arrests, shooting unarmed protestors, etc…) is simply unacceptable to me. The cost in innocent Israeli lives would be enormous. Surely there must be a better way, some peaceful means one could use to end the threat of Israeli violence and oppression.
Donald,
serious question, do you consider hamas at all responsible for any suffering which happened or is happening in gaza?
yonira,
serious question, do you consider the warsaw uprising at all responsible for any suffering which happened in the warsaw ghetto?
“serious question, do you consider hamas at all responsible for any suffering which happened or is happening in gaza?”
Yes I do. I’ve said that to Witty on more than one occasion. He tends to forget it each time. I think Israel is fundamentally responsible, because they had no right to impose the blockade in the first place but the rocket fire was immoral and also, apart from its immorality as indiscriminate weapon fire, it also gave Israel an excuse to invade.
Hamas has also committed human rights violations against its own people–Human Rights Watch has written about this.
I’d talk seriously with a real liberal Zionist about the crimes of both sides and I have done so at other blogs and in real life, but for Witty’s views I’ve acquired a real contempt. Concessions of Hamas misdeeds are always accepted by him as what is natural, but when Israel’s actions are the subject he acts like a freaking defense attorney.
I agree with you also, even with the part about Israel being fundamentally responsible for the crisis.
“The intention of a more involved military effort was to stop the shelling decisively, permanently”
If that was ever an intention, Israel would not have broken the ceasefire.
“The Lebanon war was another conflict in which the narratives vary greatly, but the Lebanon war was a model (reformed tactically, if not morally). It was a model in both military strategy, and in political pattern.”
It was a model in terms of making no effort to hide the fact that Israel attacks civilians.
Tzipi Linvi stated that one of the goals of the Gaza attack was to restore Israel’s deterrence capacity.
“The theme of “we’ve got them on the run” was one of the reasons that the Israeli military response in Lebanon was so intense.”
Bullshit Witty. You’re improvising again with tyour own imaghinary themes.
“The left interpretation of the events was that Hezbollah was independant of Hamas and other abductions.”
Moslty beasue they followed abductions carried out by Israel. In the case of Shalit, Israle adduicted 2 Palestinians from Gaza city the day before.
“The interpretation of the Israeli military and populace was of the urgent need to stop the trend before it became a repeat of the terror campaigns by multiple factions a couple years earlier.”
False again. The way to stop the trend was to stop the cycle which they invariable always start, just liek stopping rocket atacks. You don’t a trend by perpatuating it.
“The most important effort is turn down the heat, reciprocally, so that it does result in relaxation and elimination of institutions of suppression of Palestinians, AND elimination of violent threats towards Israelis.”
But as Tzipi LIvni said, Israel rejects such an option. It has nothjign to do with accepting Israel’s existence, because Israel doesn;t care who accepts it’s existence, certainly not in the Middle East. If they did, they woudl have acepted teh arab Peace proposal a long time ago.
“I agree with you also, even with the part about Israel being fundamentally responsible for the crisis.”
You’re somewhat confusing to me, because you get into flamewars which I generally skip over and I gather you do say some pretty nasty things about the Palestinians, and yet I’ve also had that impression–that you’re more liberal than RW and would be considerably more critical of Israel’s actions than he would be.
Oh well. Not my job to figure out everyone around here.
“good, in all seriousness, go to gaza as a homosexual and tell me how welcoming they are.”
yonira – you’re speaking about issues which you have little to no knowledge – again.
I’m gay and have lived and travelled in various countries throughout the ME, without issue. Like chaos I am planning a trip to Gaza or the West Bank within the next year and in deciding to go/not go sexuality just isn’t an issue. Seeing Israel slaughter/abuse Palestinians with alarming regularity is.
Homosexuality is everywhere and arab/muslim countries are no exception. Arabic culture in general is very respectful of peoples privacy.
*Legally* the situation for the LGBT communities in muslim/arab countries is not dissimilar to that in western countries just a few decades ago – there is much work to be done. The gay liberation movement is even more recent than civil rights or feminism – and there’s very few countries where LGBT people have FULL equality, including the US. So you can get off your moral high horse, right about now.
Donald? Sometimes people think they see the Virgin Mary’s image in a burnt piece of toast.
Don’t more method into the madness than there is. With yonira, it’s like picking through vomit on the floor because you see Cheerios in it.
You know that is a lie Sumud,
http://ttthomas.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/to-be-gay-in-gaza-right-now/
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-116.html/
Don’t let facts or personal accts from actually people who live there get in your way Sumud. If you want real man on man action, visit Tel Aviv. You can felch all you want there!
Oh, yes, yonira, I’m sure your authority as a racist homophobic hick from the rural Dakotas who thinks homosexuals are characterized primarily as meth-snorting pedophiles carries a lot more weight than a gay man who’s actually traveled in the Middle East. The same way that a couple of hastily googled blog entries are supposed to be more credible than newswires or UN investigations.
I am not sure what nastiness you are talking about? Once I said i thought it was funny that Zionism was being blamed for striped donkeys in Gaza. anything else?
I hate Israel for the occupation, I hate Israel for its treatment of Gaza. This is why I wouldn’t consider making Aliyah. I want nothing more than peace, as time goes by I have even become more open to a bi-national state (although I would much prefer two states to begin with). Our opinions are not that much different.
But when I see ppl lie through their asses and accuse me of being a Nazi, telling Richard they can’t wait until his son is tried at Nuremberg, I get defensive. I get defensive when I open up and say I am dating a Native American girl and then have her degraded with jokes about sweat lodges. I get defensive when I talk about my choice of a conversion and then get accused of doing it for Jew money. I gave up any honest argument on here because of the disrespect me and other ‘Zionists’ receive on here for not thinking Israel is the great Satan.
I respect you Donald because you can admit that both sides have some responsibility in the mess, others would go to their graves before they admit anything other than Israel and the Jews as responsible for the entire mess.
show me a UN investigation that applauds gay rights in Gaza Chaos. Show me a newswire which does the same. you say some far out shit sometime.
You’re not defensive. Not even slightly. From day one you were slinging anti-Palestinian epithets and only now have you decided to take the stairs slowly instead of stumbling and rolling down them in a stupor. You know Witty does the crocodile tears act far better than you do, you foul-mouthed barely literate prevaricating pseudo-Jew.
Take your act to your girlfriend. I’m guessing she’s buying it, if she’s still with you.
Meanwhile, the rest of us are going to actually do something about stopping that terrorist state that is Israel.
Don’t I have to prove that we gays aren’t all meth addicts? I’m still working on proving to you that Palestinian children are neither terrorists nor military targets. Cut me some slack here, my bookmark file is full and you’re still Holocaust-denying the same links I bring up every time one of you liars spouts the same bullshit all over again.
like what Chaos? i have the utmost respect for Palestinians, its the terrorists i don’t like.
“There are aspects of Israel’s strategy and behavior that are irrational and excessive.”
” Three hundred children died mostly because Israel executed a military response that was plausibly rational for the condition.”
Make up your mind RW, will you?
I have yet to see you make any meaningful distinction. There isn’t a Palestinian I haven’t seen you slander and characterize as savage and brutal.
great answer, way to prove your point chaos.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I had to build a case. You’re all the evidence I need, just being fake-Jew you.
The prosecution rests.
Chaos, I have a certificate. why do you hate jews?
“You know that is a lie Sumud,”
*What* is a lie yonira? I’m speaking about my own experiences of living and travelling throughout the ME – and the fact that I have no fear of travelling to either the West Bank / Gaza because of my sexuality. I’ve stated ME countries have much work to do on LGBT rights. So where’s my lie?
And thanks for your generous offer to visit Tel Aviv but I’m not into sex tourism, which is basically the message of the Israeli campaign targeting the pink tourist dollar. Just another sign of desperation on Israel’s behalf..
Israel is only interested in vacuous shopping queens anyway – if you’re political and dare to criticise apartheid in Israel all the rhetoric about Israel being gay-friendly evaporates:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/anti-israel-group-could-cost-toronto-gay-pride-parade-its-funding-1.284697
“You didn’t read my comments stating that the reason for the more “cautious” (for IDF personnel) approach than tit-for-tat, or for an exposed ground campaign, was Hamas’ assertions that they would “soak the streets of Gaza with the Zionists’ blood” (or something to that effect).”
RW – I read your comments and reject it as absurd rubbish. Israel knew exactly the defensive capabilities of Hamas – nil.
“RW – I read your comments and reject it as absurd rubbish. Israel knew exactly the defensive capabilities of Hamas – nil.”
I couldn’t agree more Sumud. RW’s improvised BS is so lame, it leaves me shaking my head with my mouth open in bewilderment. He doesn’t even get this from reading, he makes it up, expecting not to be challenged on it. He’s figures that if he throw out enough lies. some will get through the net and permeate and eventually be accepted.
After 2 years of blockades, Hamas had no chance of arming themselves to any degree that posed a threat to Israel, and Israel knew this. It had only been 2 years since Isral had carried out it’s last massacre in Gaza and in addition, Israel had managed to con the UN (thanls to the US) into passing reasolutions demanding the disarmament fo Hamas and Hezbollah while giving itself immunity from such obligations.
The IDF still believes it is the same force it was in 1967, but has become a cowardly and the Israeli public have no stomach for death tolls. They’ve become so used to atatcking defenseless and poorly trained enemies, that they’ve forgotten how to deal with a true adversary. They even convinced themselves that the lob sided attack in Gaza has restored the deterrance capacity that was lost when they were humiliated by Hebollah.
Like you said, Israel attacked Gaza because it was easy pickings.
Shingo,
if that is the case, why all the provocation following November 4th? To use a favorite raped woman analogy on here, if a woman begs for rough sex and then claims she was raped afterwards, is it rape?
“if that is the case, why all the provocation following November 4th? ”
Let me ask you that with a question that Witty has refused ot answer on a dozen occasions that I’ve asked him’
If Hamas has snuck into Tel Aviv and bombed a building, and killed 6 Israelis, would you expect Israel to respond? Woudl you consider such an action to be “provocation” or retribution?
“To use a favorite raped woman analogy on here, if a woman begs for rough sex and then claims she was raped afterwards, is it rape?”
Except that this woman was saying no to sex. Then again, to a Zionist, no probably means yes.
yonira you homophobic prick are you going to answer me?
*What* lie?
BTW Yonira. To make matters worse, the Hamas attackers pull off this stung during a ceasefire.
Witty has insisted that Hamas should have sucked it up and offered the other cheek. Would you expect Israel to do the same under thf same circumstances?
“Like you said, Israel attacked Gaza because it was easy pickings.”
And they continue to attack Shingo – bored teenage girls operating playstations …oops I meant machine gun turrets on the Gaza border.
“IDF’s newest heroes: Women spotters on Gaza border”
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-s-newest-heroes-women-spotters-on-gaza-border-1.264024
This is, I presume, how 90+ Gazans were killed in the 12 months following the Gaza Massacre – during the same period that not a single Israeli was killed by Gazan action.
We saw from the recent Iraq wikileaks video (where cameras were mistaken for weapons) how well war by remote control goes. I don’t see anything even vaguely heroic about shooting basically *everything* which, if you read Goldstone, were the rules of engagement Israel employed in Gaza.
“Yes I do. I’ve said that to Witty on more than one occasion. He tends to forget it each time. I think Israel is fundamentally responsible, because they had no right to impose the blockade in the first place but the rocket fire was immoral and also, apart from its immorality as indiscriminate weapon fire, it also gave Israel an excuse to invade. ”
If you read back, I am talking about the question of what is rational, justifiable defense. I don’t know if Goldstone agreed with your assessment of what is rational and legal defense in the context. I don’t think he did, from the summaries that I’ve read here. I think he acknowledged that a larger scale effort was relevant, legal, given the circumstances of escalated shelling on civilians (the initiation of war, as distinct from skirmish).
I agree, Richard, that a larger military effort by Palestinians given the decades of brutality by Israel, ranging from petty sadism to outright murder, would have been justified. I question whether they could launch such an effort given the dismal state of their weaponry. This is why there is merit in your implied suggestion that we send highly accurate weapons systems to the Palestinians, so that they can target the Israeli military and other tools of oppression while keeping civilian casualties to a minimum.
““RW – I read your comments and reject it as absurd rubbish. Israel knew exactly the defensive capabilities of Hamas – nil.””
That is only known after the fact.
That is why it is called revisionism. It was known that Hamas could not fight an overt war against Israel. But, the assertion by Hamas that they were skilled at and prepared to conduct widespread ambushes was plausible, and Israel’s military preparation was designed to minimize ground damages to IDF.
It was big decisions by both Hamas and the IDF, decisions with enormous steps in consequences.
BOTH, but again started (or even just giving IDF credibility) by Hamas resumption of fire directed only at civilians.
So let me get this straight. Israel has enough intel to confirm that, not only are the Palestinians building a particular tunnel underground, but that particular tunnel is going to extend under the Israeli border (which it hadn’t yet) and was going to be used to kidnap one more Israeli soldier (instead of being used to move materials and people around Gaza itself, which is what the vast majority of the tunnels are for).
However, the Israeli military was not supposed to understand that the Gazans who have been under blockade for YEARS, didn’t have anti-air defenses, anti-tank defenses, bomb bunkers, etc.
You think you can keep constructing this house of cards that doesn’t collapse into overt racism? Every time Israel attacks, you assume the target is a viable military target. Every time the Palestinians attack, you assume the target is unequivocally a civilian target.
You don’t apply the same rules to both sides, Witty. The Israelis have military personnel dispersed throughout their settlements, especially those near Palestinian land. If you’re going to assume the presense of even one Hamas or Hezbollah militant makes an entire neighborhood subject to military attack, then you must apply the same rules to Israeli settlements.
Or else, your argument reduces to nothing more than racism.
The elephant in the room is the current condition and status of Gazan civilians.
Its hard to know which is the more stubborn.
One element of the discussion of Hamas in December 2008 that I find telling is that I have not heard a substantive disagreement with the observation that Hamas hid during the Israeli land invasion.
if you wonder why you are subject to constant ridicule, you should look to your consistently ridiculous commentary. really witty your passive-aggressive hostility is troubling. first your commentary regarding the Palestinian Gandhi in-waiting, whose legitimacy could only be proven to you by his or her willingness to commit suicide. now you insist that the Hamas ‘cadre’ should have confronted the IDF ‘kamikaze’-style, and by indirect reference you imply that the IDF is morally superior to Hamas. (this being the same IDF which has used Palestinian civilians as human shields as a matter of policy despite an Israeli High Court prohibition against such conduct.) and, for the record, do you condemn the use of guerrilla tactics such as the car bomb and booby trap by Zionists in British mandate Palestine when such Zionists were faced with better equipped British troops or Palestinian Arabs? or do you just reserve your taunt of ‘chicken’ for the Palestinians?
and, i forget, which branch of the military did you serve in?
If Hamas had stood and fought, the civilian death toll would have been even higher as Israel would have demolished any neighborhood where any Hamas fighters fired a shot–part of that IDF policy of sparing their own soldiers any risk. So not only is Witty engaging in childish macho posturing, he’s also being his usual hypocritical self, because if Hamas had stood and fought, Witty would say the civilian deaths were their fault.
But that’s RW for you–at some level he probably knows the Gaza massacre demolished any pretense the Israelis had of a morally superior military, so he spends much of his time here trying to pin most of the blame for Israeli crimes on Hamas.
Witty served in the US Marines. And subsequently, he served in the IDF–in the same support unit as Rahm. BTW he’s also given donations to his local police, and he packs a glock, just to let us all know that he’s a fierce individual. His son’s been in awe of him for years, and they do agree on Orthodox souls.
He is ridiculed because he doesn’t tow the line. There is a lot of ridiculous commentary applauded on here on a daily basis, because they agree with you. The hypocrisy on this site is reaching epic proportions. It’s enjoyable. l
He is ridiculed because of A) his rhetorical style [vague, equivocation, red herrings, ignorance - ex. When he disputed Saban's one-issue even though Saban stated it himself] and B) his persistence in spite of being refuted over and over.
What do you know? When do you ever debate here? You’re a suck up, loser. You latch on to those who share your narrow world-view.
Pick a topic, or deal w/ the subject matter and engage in sincere discussion. All you ever do is cheer-lead. Pathetic.
Saban was an Arab Jew who was forced out of his native country and given refuge and sucess in Israel. what should his one-issue be, Egypt?
His one issue should be America, especially if hes openly talking about corrupting news coverage (with millions of dollars) that doesn’t suit his ideological agenda.
Saban is a multi-millionaire who is open about his intention to corrupt our institutions and media to provide the American public with a bigoted and racist view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The fact that you don’t take issue to that is rather appalling.
Toe the line. Why is this so hard?
Not to worry, RoHa. It’s just another ad homonym.
Mooser will complain that you are stealing his schtick.
Yes, I know. He’s “working this side of the street”. Sorry, Mooser. I couldn’t help myself.
Yeah Richard, your schtick really sucks. No ones buying it any more. Frankly, it’s just weak altogether. Make a comment when it’s convincing, like you did last night.
The Israeli land invasion happened a few days after they’d tried to bomb the shit out of Gaza in any way they could, using drones, Apache helicopters and F-16s.
When the poor little IDF infantry finally got its act together, it ‘invaded’ over mostly empty agricultural land, conducted a few atrocities on outlying city suburbs, and then sat, for days. Hamas’ soldiers had already grouped for defence in the cities; but the IDF declined to go forward, fearing casualties in urban fighting.
Who are the cowards ? Hamas setting up a strong defence, or the IDF hesitating and then retreating?
Finally, they retreated, using their bulldozers, tanks, and plain explosives etc, to trash all the infrastructure of the border areas. The IDF is still doing this right now.
Well put Richard,
During the 2006 Lebanon war, one Israeli military observer stated that the reason Israel lostr was becasue IDF troops were not prepared to die for their country while Hebollah fighters were fierce and fearless.
LOL, yeah firing rockets and hiding in civilization structures is fearless.
Fearless:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbMYq8JkSMQ
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/jul/30/20060730-093558-9976r/
What’s your point? The US Army War College report refuted the claim that the reason for so many civilian casualties during the 2006 War, was the systematic usage of human shields by Hezbollah.
There was no systematic usage of human shields. Hezbollah fought like a conventional army, the report goes on to say. Etc. etc.
Try harder, idiot. Anytime you attempt to debate, you get stomped.
“LOL, yeah firing rockets and hiding in civilization structures”
All of which was based on Israeli sources that have been debunked by HRW and other reports.
There’s a good reason why the UDF violated the ruling of ghe Israeli Supreme Court and banned foreign journalists from entering Gaza.
Yes Yoni FEARLESS, which explains why Israel’s asses were handed to them.
yonira will cite the IDF or whatever scam internal investigation but will ignore all the international NGOs.
And then cry ‘bias’. As usual, pathetic.
Can’t debate. Can’t discuss sincerely. All this freak does is cheer-lead the other ZioCultists.
Grow a spine, you coward.
Israeli soldiers prefer to drop bombs and white phosphorus on kids.
They like picking on the Palestinians because they’re weak. And they’ve gotten so used to fighting kids throwing stones, that they’ve become an even worse fighting-force. It must be easy to control others when you’re the biggest welfare State.
Cry about Jewish suffering, get a billion dollars, guns, political cover, to steal more land and kill more Arabs.
And village idiots, who have never done anything in their life and won’t amount to anything, like yonira, get off on that. Freaks.
I show you proof, video evidence of rockets being fired from behind a civilian structure. You tell me about a report, you don’t bother to cite the specific report or give me any detail information. Then you claim you are stomping my argument….
Yep, i am the idiot Cliff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa5AGJLezMs
(its 10 minutes I am sure your ADD brain will struggle w/ the length)
This is good too. Maybe this is why the UN gets in the middle of Israeli fire. The enemy uses it to launch attacks from.
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50
Cliffy,
why couldn’t your daddy get you into a better med school?
“neighbor procedure”
* ahem *
Do you know what CONTEXT means, yonira?
The exchange begins w/ Shingo’s comment. Then your reply.
Yea, you got stomped. The US Army War College report stated, there was no systematic usage of human shields. Most of the civilians had fled. Hezbollah did make use of terrain some buildings I believe, but they were abandoned.
Furthermore, they wore traditional uniforms.
Based on interviews w/ Israeli participants, they said there was no MEANINGFUL intermingling w/ civilians.
I don’t know how many times it may have happened. But it happened so little, that an Establishment report concluded to the contrary of traditional Zionist claims about it’s enemies (human shields, etc.).
1000+ Lebanese died in the war. You had Israeli military officials saying they punished the Lebanese. Tom Friedmann, who first pushed the Zionist lie about human shields, then went on to say that the Israelis ‘educated’ the Lebanese w/ the heavy civilian death toll and destruction of infrastructure.
The bottom-line, you hopeless brainwashed idiot, is that the only reason people bring up human shields is because it absolves Israel of blame for the large civilian death toll.
I mean, if the ‘enemy’ is using their own people as shields, then no wonder so many innocents died – right?
Well, thats what Israel often argues about Hamas or Hezbollah or whoever it’s fighting at the moment.
In this case, an Establishment report concluded no such evidence existed of meaningful/systematic human shielding. No meaningful intermingling w/ civilians was observed. The report is available online.
The case is closed. The allegations by your side were utter BS. Just like everything else they cry wolf over.
In terms of courage? Israel is the regional superpower. It regularly butchers innocent people, ruins their lives, destroys their homes, etc.
So yea, stomped. Once again, you cannot debate sincerely because you are ignorant. Not well-read. Just a mindless cheer-leader. In any public debate, morons like you are laughed out of the room if the audience is full of non-ethno/religious nationalists.
Try harder, loser.
Neoucom is one of the top schools on the East Coast actually. It’s very difficult to get in.
You didn’t even know WHERE I went to school. Damn, you’re sad, man.
I have not once met a Zionist in person, so thanks for letting me know what people like you are like. Freaks.
keep telling yourself that cliff, what are gonna be a pharmacy tech
“I show you proof, video evidence of rockets being fired from behind a civilian structure.”
Yes it shows nothing Yonira, and what’s more, there is nothing in that video to prove it was from the 2006 Lebanon war. Israel have been busted repeatedly recycling old video and claiming it to be something it’s not.
Notice how Amnesty and HRW both debunked this trash?
Amnesty and HRW Claims Discredited in Detailed Report
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/amnesty_and_hrw_claims_discredited_in_detailed_report
Human Rights Watch: Troubling Report
http://www.nysun.com/opinion/human-rights-watch-troubling-report/46037/
Israeli ‘human shield’ claim is full of holes
http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090113/FOREIGN/591536290/1002
“This is good too. Maybe this is why the UN gets in the middle of Israeli fire. The enemy uses it to launch attacks from.”
Did you notice how no evidence is provided?
I guess you never thought to ask that question right Yoini?
Very well put Cliff. The fact is that Friedman’s comments are pefectly consistent with Israeli policy as Ze’ev Shiff poonted out.
“The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.”
Ze’ev Shiff (Israeli journalist and military correspondent for Ha’aretz. )
“I show you proof, video evidence of rockets being fired from behind a civilian structure.”
Yes it shows nothing Yonira, and what’s more, there is nothing in that video to prove it was from the 2006 Lebanon war. Israel have been busted repeatedly recycling old video and claiming it to be something it’s not.
Notice how Amnesty and HRW both debunked this trash?
Human Rights Watch: Troubling Report
http://www.nysun.com/opinion/human-rights-watch-troubling-report/46037/
Israeli ‘human shield’ claim is full of holes
http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090113/FOREIGN/591536290/1002
“This is good too. Maybe this is why the UN gets in the middle of Israeli fire. The enemy uses it to launch attacks from.”
Did you notice how no evidence is provided?
I guess you never thought to ask that question right Yoini?
this is why debating you assholes is worthless. when it gets down to it i can debate claims like, oh you can’t prove this was even Lebanon, or look a zionist publication or zionist conspiracy. its always the same bullshit with you guys.
whatever though, have fun learning how to split pills in 1/2 and asking patients if they need to consult w/ a pharmacist on their new medication.
yonira, did the Israeli high court prohibit the IDF’s policy of using human shields or did it not? Did the IDF file briefs and argue before that same court that it should be permitted to continue to use palestinian civilians as human shields or did it not? Did/does the IDF continue to pursue that policy of using palestinians civilians as human shields even after the high court prohibition?
i would love to see a brief where the IDF argued before this court in favor of their using human shields. more lies.
“this is why debating you assholes is worthless.”
Yes, it is worthless having a debate, when limp wristed propagandists like yourself try to participate in a debate without any facts or knowing what you;re talking about Yoni
“when it gets down to it i can debate claims like, oh you can’t prove this was even Lebanon,”
Given that Israel have been repeatedly busted using footage from previous events and using it to make false claims, it’s a perfectly reasonable request. You’re just pissed off that you don;t have that evidence.
“or look a zionist publication or zionist conspiracy. its always the same bullshit with you guys.”
Yes, we’ve come to expect bullshit and lies from you, so excuse us when we don’t accept your BS at face value.
“whatever though, have fun learning how to split pills in 1/2 and asking patients if they need to consult w/ a pharmacist on their new medication.”
just remember Yoni, your shrink prescirbed the white pills in the blue bottle not the blue pills in the white one.
Don’t know if I can find a brief, but a quick google produced the B’Tselem summary in the link below.
Yonira, are you arguing that the Arab side violates the laws of war, or are you arguing that Israel is mostly innocent? If you are arguing the former, sure. The human rights groups agree. If you argue the latter, then you’re with all the other ideologues who go into denial when their favorite country is criticized. I can’t tell with you, because you get so caught up in your flamewars here.
link
The link didn’t work. Try again.
link
Okay, I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong–I usually post links successfully, so I’ll just paste the web address.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Human_Shields/Index.asp
IDF to appeal human shield ban
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm
got any proof Shingo?
Actually Israel has been shown to issue propaganda videos, especially on their YouTube channel.
This was clear evidence, the Israelis said, of how accurate their strikes were and how well justified. A special unit it has set up to coordinate its informational plan put the video onto YouTube as part of its effort to use modern means of communications to get Israel’s case across.
The YouTube video has a large caption on it saying “Grad missiles being loaded onto the Hamas vehicle.” As of Saturday morning UK time, more than 260,000 people had watched it.
Different version
It turned out, however, that a 55-year-old Gaza resident named Ahmed Sanur, or Samur, claimed that the truck was his and that he and members of his family and his workers were moving oxygen cylinders from his workshop.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7809371.stm
The fact is that there is very little evidence to suggest that Hezbollah or Hamas used human shields during the Israeli bombardment of both Lebanon and Gaza.
On the contrary there is significant evidence and video footage of Israelis using Palestinian civilians as human shields to the point of literally tying Palestinian children to the front of IDF military jeeps and to placing assault rifles on the shoulders of Palestinian civilians as they marched those civilians forward firing from behind them (like cowards).
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-war-crimes-guardian
Nonetheless, even if there are a few remote instances of Israel killing Palestinian civilians as “collateral damage” it does not change the fact that the vast majority of proven Israeli strikes struck areas that had zero “enemy combatants” present.
Lets not forget that Israel unilaterally struck Gaza, broke the truce, and continues to blockade the Gaza strip. Also, lets not forget that Israel is the country that decided to drop 1-2 ton bombs on one of the most densely populated areas on the planet.
Its no wonder that thousands of civilians were killed or maimed.
Nor should it be any surprise that nearly half of the pitiful infrastructure in Gaza was destroyed (while Israel continues to deny the Palestinians the ability to rebuild what Israel destroyed).
i think it was adalah which had filed briefs in support of the high court prohibition. they had links in english to all the briefing materials and high court orders. i’ll try to locate in the morning. as i recall the IDF never denied the policy, just that it saved lives.
http://www.adalah.org/eng/humanshields.php
there’s the link. in black and white. the IDF acknowledging its policy of using civilians as human shields. quite different than the US Army War College, HRW, AI, etc. finding no such policy or practice by Hizbollah during Lebanon 2006 despite Israeli propaganda.
I spoke to John Ging from UNRWA during the Gaza war and he explained that the UN had given the IDF the precise GPS coordinates of all UN buildings shortly PRIOR to the extensive bombing. Yet UN buildings were repeatedly targeted even after Ging called the IDF during the bombing to again warn them.
Furthermore, research the Dahiya doctrine which was formulated by IDF and other senior military researchers. The doctrine applies to a Shia suburb of East Beirut that was basically carpet bombed during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon war. The basic philosophy behind the doctrine was that civilian infrastructure would be heavily targeted in any future confrontations to make the civilian population and military adversaries pay a very heavy price for conflict with Israel.
Before the IDF embarked on the Gaza campaign its legal department verified and approved the targeting of civilian infrastructure connected to the Hamas authorities and turned international law on its head.
http://heathlander.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/the-dahiya-doctrine/
http://www.countercurrents.org/heard191009.htm
The IDF did show a video of armed fighters firing from a UN compound to journalists during the Gaza war. However, said video was actually several years old and occurred about two years prior to the Gaza bombings at an abandoned UN facility which had already been vacated.
When this was pointed out by journalists to the IDF spokesman there was deafening silence and they stopped using the video for propaganda purposes.
Thank you for the links Miss Dee Mena.
Tough talk from the western yoga warrior. If their were apache helicopters over your house in the rolling Mass hills, would you be outside with your AK, ready to defend the nation?
But yeah, it’s tough fighting the ‘good’ war when the IDF is above you firing wiley-pete into the crowds of cilivians.
Yep, Witty, and you don’t hide at all in your own very special “Vermont?”
but the intrepid witty is stabbing away at his keyboard right now, citizen, risking a fatal blow to his ego with every slight, every ridicule heaped on him. i mean look at the poor fellow dabbing his tear-stained cheeks in the glow of his $2000 laptop, in between gulps of chocolate milk. it is incredible. for a self-described liberal jew he spends an inordinate amount of time fantasizing over the deaths of palestinians and striking his patented jesus christ pose. ‘oy yoy yoy’, as my babcha would say.
“One element of the discussion of Hamas in December 2008 that I find telling is that I have not heard a substantive disagreement with the observation that Hamas hid during the Israeli land invasion.”
If hiding troubles you so much Witty, then why do Israelis citizens have bomb shelters and why do the IDF hide inside Merkava Tanks and F-16 and Apache Helicopter cockpits?
Why did the IDF have to soften up Hamas before undetaking their ground invasion? Why did the groud troops have to hide inside Israel?
I would acknowledge that Hamas floated feelers to Israel to see if there was a limited reconciliation possible.
I don’t know if that was in fact sincere, or to what extent or under what conditions, or if it violated the component of the Oslo agreements to regard the PLO as the “sole representative of the Palestinian people”.
In contrast, let’s see the full measure of Israeli sincerity.
How Israel led Hamas into false sense of security
I take it using relief supplies donated to a starving population as bait for a military offensive is kosher by your standards too, Herr Witty?
Witty, this is very profound:
Which could be more stubborn; their condition or their status?
Witty is the resident self-styled philosopher. Less hit, more miss.
The condition of the people is the elephant in the room.
Both proponents of Zionism, and opponents of Zionism forget that in their political zeal.
The proponents of Zionism are RESPONSIBLE for the condition of those people, Witty.
The elephant in the room being getting people like you to treat them like human beings with full rights under the Geneva Conventions.
Is there a Jewish equivalent to “Islamist”? (not a rhetorical question)
What exactly does “Islamist” mean? (not a rhetorical question)
:)
I get the sense that a lot of non-English words have been adopted into the English vocabulary, mostly for purposes of propaganda. Consider, for example, the use of Fatwa, or Jihadist. How come, unlike Yiddish, most of the Arabic words known in the so-called West have negative connotations? There’s Mazel Tov, and then there’s Allahu-Akbar.
I encourage all my friends to call each other Habibi or Habibti.
I like Habibi. What does it mean?
Friend.
I like Habibi. What does it mean?
——————
Generally it’s a term of endearment or affection, . It could be ‘darling’, ‘ ‘Sweetheart’, ‘honey’ ‘my beloved’ or ‘my love’ etc.
There’s hardly ever an Arabic song without the word habibi or habibti, hobb in it.
Israelist? (notice how it just misses reading, Is realist.)
Is realist?
Well, Mazel Tov; :Good Luck, doesn’t quite have the ring of Allahu Akbar; God is Great, although I’m sure God is Great has an equivalent in Hebrew that perhaps has gone out of fashion, probably since the Torah was written down. El Shaddai (almighty God) probably has a similar meaning.
One Arabic equivalent of Mazel Tov is Sakhte’in – Good Health to you I misstated it once, and that got me into trouble.
I agree with you about the misuse of Fatwa and Jihad. There is no way the original words meant the same extreme as when they are regularly trotted out by Western journalists.
What you are really complaining about is the demonisation of Muslims in America. Hint: whenever you read American Muslim, substitute Baptist throughout.
How about the abuse of the word “intifada”?
If you recall Debbia Almontaser was forced to resign her position as director of a New York school (which she founded) because of a loose association with an arab womens media group who produced t-shirts reading “Intifada NYC”. The Almontaser connection was that she was a board member of a Yemani/American group which shared office space with the media group responsible for the t-shirts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Almontaser#Criticism_of_Almontaser
Not bad interviews with Almontaser and Daniel Pipes who objects even to a halal menu for the school cafeteria:
http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2008/04/28/nyt-article-and-open-letter-debbie-almontaser-and-the-arab-culture-school-victims-of-the-proxy-battle-over-israel-and-palestine/
The good news is Almontaser had her day in court recently and won:
http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/03/13/eeoc-finds-bias-in-nyc-firing-arab-school-principal-almontaser/
One of the comments on the Silverstein article refer to a further distortion of the arabic language by the anti-muslim gang: madrassa – which has been characterised as schools dedicated to islamist education – but is in fact much more mundane, meaning just plain old “school”.
are non-Jewish Americans allowed to have an opinion on this “spat” and whether it’s healthy for America, or do you have to be missing certain parts of anatomy to participate?
Phil highlights the reactions of American Jews:
How do you say ‘Frankly my dear I don’t give a damn’ in Hebrew? I’m concerned about the deep economic doo doo and debt that the US is in. You American Jews created this fubar, solve it yourselves. Or aren’t you smart enough, rich enough?
This “giant elephant” the Left is defending are Islamist fascists who put women in burqas and have brought back crucifixion as a form of capital punishment.
Three cheers for the Left on Gaza. There are truth and consequences for their vocal support for Hamas.
RE: “Islamist fascists who put women in burqas…” – NormanF
SEE: ‘Modesty patrol’ suspected of spilling acid on teenage girl, Neta Sela,06/05/08, Ynet News (Israel)
Religious tensions at boiling point in Beitar Illite as 14-year-old girl attacked by member of town’s ‘modesty guard’
A 14-year-old girl from Beitar Illite was taken to the Hadassah Ein Kerem Hospital in Jerusalem after an unknown person spilled acid on her face, legs and stomach, causing light burn wounds. The act has been attributed to a representative of the so-called ‘modesty guard’ in this town where religious and secular residents are increasingly at bitter odds. MDA received the call just before midnight on Wednesday and paramedic Dror Eini who arrived on the scene to treat the girl also managed to calm her down enough so she could explain what had happened….
… An ultra-Orthodox teen from Beitar Illite who is in contact with the girl’s family spoke with her sister who described the incident. According to the boy, the attacker stopped the girl and first asked her for directions. Then, after confirming her surname, he spilled a bottle of acid on her….
ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3552461,00.html
RE: “Islamist fascists who put women in burqas…” – NormanF
FROM YNET NEWS – Rabbi Aviner: Women must not wear pants even when alone , 05/02/08
One of Religious Zionism’s most prominent leaders defines trousers as a ’self-prohibition,’ says women ‘must dress modestly also when alone and in the dark’
(EXCERPT) Women must not wear pants even when they are home alone, Rabbi Shlomi Aviner has ruled.
Aviner, Beit El’s rabbi and one of Religious Zionism’s most prominent leaders, was asked in a cellular Q&A session published in the “Small World” bulletin, “When a girl goes to relieve herself at night, is she allowed to say the ‘Asher Yatzar’ (’he who formed’) prayer while wearing a short-sleeved shirt and trousers?”
The rabbi replied that it is permitted to say the prayer in such a case, but added that “in general, a woman must always wear modest clothes even when she is alone and in the dark, because the Holy one blessed be he is everywhere. And yes, trousers are a self-prohibition even when a woman is alone.”…….
ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3538781,00.html
VIDEO / Ultra-Orthodox ‘Modesty Guard’ suspected of beating Jerusalem woman, By Haaretz Staff and Channel 10, 08/07/08
A group of men who police suspect were hired by an ultra-Orthodox gang recently broke into a Jerusalem woman’s home and beat her because they deemed her immodest.
The so-called “Modesty Guard” is suspected of being behind the incident. The gang has been known to unleash extortion, mercenaries, violence and surveillance on less religious Jews they deem sacrilegious. They claim to do it all in the name of God.
The incident may be one of a string of signs of rising ultra-Orthodox violence. Last year, five Haredi Jews assaulted a woman and an Israel Defense Forces soldier because they sat next to one another on a Jerusalem bus.
SOURCE – http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009580.html
thanks, dickerson, you saved me the trouble of pointing to the hypocrisy of the budding theocracy in Judea and Samaria. you might’ve mentioned the phenomenon of the racialist chaperones though, protecting the chastity of young Israeli jews who might hook up with an (*gasp*) Ay-rab.
ope. beat me to it.
RE: “Islamist fascists who put women in burqas…” – NormanF
FROM YNET NEWS (ISRAEL): Jerusalem: Orthodox riot in protest of chastity squad arrest , by Neta Sela 08/26/08
Haredim burn garbage cans, block streets in protest of arrest of community member suspected of torching store that sells MP4 player. ‘Safeguarding Torah considered a crime in this country of Sodom and Gomorrha,’ they say
(EXCERPT) Ultra-Orthodox Jews rioted in Jerusalem on Monday in protest of the recent arrest of Shmuel Weisfish, a member of the haredi community’s chastity squad who was allegedly involved in the torching of a store selling MP4 players in violation of a ruling of the Orthodox Court of Justice. Demonstrators set garbage cans on fire on Shmuel Hanavi, Dvora Hanevia, Hanevi’im and Shivtei Yisrael streets in the capital…. …… Haredim recently distributed pashkevilim (informative ads or posters often plastered in the Jerusalem’s religious neighborhoods) against stores selling MP4 devices, saying “a terrible plague is upon us, claiming victims every day… these sinful devices were banned by all the great rabbis, but are still common in the haredi world… their devilish distributors want nothing more than to drive the people of Israel to sin through movies and other abominations……
ENTIRE ARTICLE –
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3587654,00.html
Well, the Ultra-Orthodox put their women in those ugly nylon wigs and scarves, strap a pram to their waist for 20 years, and make them bathe in a temple because they are ‘unclean’. Six of one….
“This “giant elephant” the Left is defending are Islamist fascists who put women in burqas and have brought back crucifixion as a form of capital punishment.”
Please link to an example of someone being crucified Norman.
You gotta love these right wing loons. As always, their prescription for liberating women who are treated badly is to bomb them.
What the hell is an Islamofacsist?
RE: “…Islamist fascists who put women in burqas and have brought back crucifixion as a form of capital punishment…” – NormanF
SEE: Israeli MP blames gays for earthquakes, ABC News (Australia), 02/21/08
(EXCERPT) A Jewish ultra-Orthodox MP yesterday blamed homosexuals for a recent earthquake that struck Israel and the region.
Shas MP Shlomo Benizri, speaking at a parliamentary committee on the country’s preparedness for quakes, lashed out at homosexuality, considered an abomination under Jewish law and in its religious text, the Gemara.
“We are looking for earthly solutions, how to prevent them,” Mr Benizri said. “I have another way to prevent earthquakes. The Gemara says that one of the reasons earthquakes happen, which the Knesset (parliament) legitimises, is homosexuality.”
“God says you shake your genitals where you are not supposed to and I will shake my world in order to wake you up.”…
ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/21/2168674.htm
SECOND SOURCE – http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1579424/Israeli-earthquakes-are-gays-fault-says-MP.html
Ha Ha, Norman, you’re my favorite.
You still have a lot to learn to rise to the level of the other geniuses, though, keep going !
“There are truth and consequences” … where do you copy and paste this stuff from?
I think that should be the name of the next bogus Israeli invasion – “truth and consequences” , such dire, grave wisdom ! ha ha
Ha ha – how about the “skirts for the messiah” movement growing in the ultra-orthodox community in Israel, where jewish women are donning the “frumka” in order to speed the coming of the messiah.
The frumka: Orthodox women find religion
http://blogs.jta.org/telegraph/article/2008/02/08/999793/the-frumka-orthodox-women-find-religion
Jewish Burqa Trend: The Frumka – pt 1 of 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRt0ZSdx4WE
And how do you feel about the gender segregated buses that run in the ultra-orthodox communities NormanF? A little fascist?
Or as Witty likes to call it, “Jewish self-determination.”
Wow Judith Butler, Naomi Klein and Noam Chomsky, signed on to your ‘diverse’ coalition. Who would have thought it possible that such staunch defenders of Israel would back this resolution? Shocking. simply shocking. We can only hope that Norman Finkelstein doesn’t sign up for this ‘diverse’ coalition.
Don’t forget Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Danny Glover, Howard Zinn (RIP), etc
crap, i almost forgot about danny glover and his pal mel gibson too!
RE: … but whether it’s ignoring the Gaza massacre…or ignoring the politics of Gaza when talking about a Palestinian state and the “peace process,” the Times is lagging behind. – Alex Kane
MY COMMENT: “Forget it, Jake. It’s Chinatown.” (the NYT, that is) Remember what happens to “nosy fellows”?
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=140671249769#!/photo.php?pid=743216&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=140671249769&aid=-1&oid=140671249769&id=1132268443
Aw gee, what’s the question for average Americans? Which fundamentalism they wish to support by sending ineffective contrary emails and phone calls, and snail mail to
US Congress?
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