Wonderful piece by civil rights activist Hagai El-Ad at Foreign Policy says that it's not about Israel's right to exist, but its defiance of international law. Israel is out of kilter, and Obama knows it. This is another sign that there are currents in Israeli society that want their country to be judged by international standards.
Netanyahu is correct in recognizing that for a country like Israel the loss of moral credibility (domestic as well as international) is no less a danger than strategic military threats. In that, he would seem to echo the words of then President-elect Obama in his victory speech on November 4, 2008:
the true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals: democracy, liberty, opportunity and unyielding hope.
Having agreed on this beautiful principle, the two leaders could not diverge more on how it is then applied in their respective circumstances. For President Obama this meant reviewing and at least being open to correcting existing policies that were dramatically out-of-kilter with America's own self-image and the role it seeks to play in the international arena.
For Netanyahu it seems to be all about the effectiveness of the cover up--hope nobody notices the gaping chasm between hype and reality and if that chasm is exposed then blame (and crush) the messenger. The actual policies that are undermining Israel's standing are not only left untouched, but accelerated and entrenched.
This in turn generates a greater need to suppress the whistle-blowers, the dissenting voices without whom there is no democratic accountability, the clamp-down produces its own egregious examples of un-democratic regime behavior and so the vicious cycle in which Israel is trapped (by design of Netanyahu's government) continues.
Netanyahu confuses (perhaps intentionally) the legitimacy of his government's particular policies with the very legitimacy of Israel's existence--but the two are not equivalent. Criticizing specific government policies that violate human rights and civil liberties is a far cry from questioning a country's core legitimacy; secondly, instead of addressing the real policy issues that are the basis for his loss of legitimacy, he is treating the matter as a PR problem, to be solved by going after those who dare point out his government's shortcomings.
Netanyahu cannot secure international acceptance for his policies.This is unsurprising given the measures that his government is taking to further sustain the 43 year-old occupation--one that Netanyahu shows no signs of ending--and given that he came into office following the erosion of Israeli adherence to international law and norms witnessed during Operation Cast Lead. True, the current government did not create the occupation nor was it in power during Operation Cast Lead; yet, it is under this government's watch that the following policies have been enacted or perpetuated: the insistence on not undertaking a credible independent Israeli investigation into Operation Cast Lead-something previous Israeli Governments did after past military operations; the ongoing blockade on Gaza, collectively punishing a million and a half human beings and depriving them of basic needs; the arrests of leaders of the emerging non-violent Palestinian campaign against the occupation; the removal of Palestinian families from their homes in Sheikh Jarrahin East Jerusalem; segregated roads (pdf) and separate legal systems for Palestinians and settlers in the occupied West Bank multiply;and the abysmal record for holding settlers accountable for acts of violence....
for those in Israel and Palestine who are steadfast in their commitment to the realization of democracy, human rights, social justice,and an end of the occupation: while the attacks against our values are becoming more and more aggressive, there is no reason for despair. For if our message did not resonate and even shame then it is unlikely that such efforts would be invested into silencing us. If our values were not so challenging we would not be so targeted. The fears of the past join hands with the shortsighted politics of the present, together fueling anti-democratic campaigns and prolonging an unsustainable, unacceptable reality.
“Netanyahu confuses (perhaps intentionally) the legitimacy of his government’s particular policies with the very legitimacy of Israel’s existence–but the two are not equivalent. ”
Indeed, see my The Four Israels.
well, i don’t think he’s too confused. he’s drowning in deceit.
Nahum Barnea: Under Obama, deceit on settlement expansion is no longer viable
i rec this article in the hebrew press. details are a must read.
Many of Israel’s policies in the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza, and some features of life within Israel conflict with American law and values.
Gaza Palestine and West Bank Palestine, and Lebanon, and Syria, and Egypt, and Jordan, are also out of sync with US law and values.
Palestinians that have been residents of Lebanon for three generations are not permitted to vote, or have rights of equal due process for example.
Its within Israel’s reach to be consistent with American and international values.
Is it within Hamas’ reach? Lebanon’s? Syria’s?
“Its within Israel’s reach to be consistent with American and international values.”
So you think Israel will embrace one man, one vote and become a genuinely secular, liberal democracy? Not in the near term, I don’t think.
Is it within Hamas’ reach? Lebanon’s? Syria’s?”
As for Hamas, Lebanon, and Syria, I am reminded of how often American politicians praise Hamas, Lebanese and Syrian values. One does get sick of hearing about it, sometimes.
That said, American values aren’t all they are cracked up to be–as Glenn Greenwald never tires of pointing out, Obama has successfully persuaded his robotic followers to move on and not look back at Bush’s war crimes (and not notice his own), while his Justice Department is interested in prosecuting whistleblowers from the Bush era.
Since Phil won’t take Richard Silverstein’s approach and limit Witty to two posts a day, I’ll limit my Witty responses to one a day. That’s it.
Here it is–
Israel is a secular democracy mostly within Israel proper. There is one-person one-vote.
Donald,
You still haven’t explored either a study or serious inquiry into the question of what would be rational and legal Israeli defense from Hamas shelling in December, 2008.
Its within Israel’s reach to be consistent with American and international values……..Israel is a secular democracy mostly within Israel proper. There is one-person one-vote.
setting up your own strawman witty? nobody is denying it is within israel’s reach, this is just a diversion as is addressing hamas or syria. the point is that they are not doing it. the point is
For Netanyahu it seems to be all about the effectiveness of the cover up–hope nobody notices the gaping chasm between hype and reality and if that chasm is exposed then blame (and crush) the messenger. The actual policies that are undermining Israel’s standing are not only left untouched, but accelerated and entrenched.
This in turn generates a greater need to suppress
maybe you could actually address the point instead of making useless comments containing facts and points no one is disputing.
Many of Israel’s policies in the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza, and some features of life within Israel conflict with American law and values.
this was your launching off place to divert the conversation to syria. try staying on topic and address the issue instead of playing the diversion game.
Further, of those countries Witty pointed to, how many get US UN diplomatic immunity by US Sec Council veto constantly, and billions of dollars annual free US tax money–and loan forgiveness always–all no strings attached. Egypt, as people on this blog know , get the next largest chunk of US foreign aid after Israel–all of it conditioned on Egypt’s continued rubber-stamping of whatever Israel does.
Donald, excellent policy re Witty. Now, if we could just get everyone else to follow…..
But then, you know what will happen – it’ll leave the likes of you and me to split hairs on the many shades of progressive dualism…..
“Israel is a secular democracy mostly within Israel proper. There is one-person one-vote.”
A complete lie RW. Several million Palestinian refugees – rightfully citizens of Israel – are denied any rights, voting or otherwise. Add to that the 4 million Palestinians in the Occupied Territories – outside your “Israel proper” – who have no vote despite the fact their lives are completely controlled by Israel.
You are a moral midget Richard.
“‘You still haven’t explored either a study or serious inquiry into the question of what would be rational and legal Israeli defense from Hamas shelling in December, 2008. “‘
That would be a purely hypothetical study of course, seeing as Israel was not defending itself, but launchined an unprovoked, cyniocal and callous attack to start the massacre that followed.
“You are a moral midget Richard. ”
And a pathological liar.
Annie and others,
The choice to get “diverted” was yours. My posts always contain content and context. If you choose to react to context aspects, and fail to respond to content, that is your choice.
In almost all of the “dissenting” posts is a theme “everything about Israel is evil”, which is ludicrous.
It, like every society, is a work in progress, that is enhanced by productive engagement moreso than rationalization for condemnation or isolation.
I believe that Obama is an important actor to realize great improvement in Israeli moral and political life. And, he does face idiotic adversaries including references to resumption of construction in East Jerusalem and tearing down of Palestinians’ homes in East Jerusalem that I posted this morning.
In calling people that are conscious at all of Palestinian suffering, and active at all in relieving, “racist”, or “moral midget”; and in ignoring the contrasting state of democracy in neighboring states and communities, you HINDER the movement that you propose to support.
You actively alienate far more than you inspire. Your application of “by any means necessary” is very slim, as it excludes respectful and direct persuasion.
Oh shut up your narcisistic bore.
Not only do you demadn that every thread become about you, but you even go so far as to delare what an awesome job and contribution you are making to the world. You are insufferable.
You only have a propbem with condemnation or isolation when it’s directed at Israle, otherwise, you are only to happy to let fly at Israel’s enemies.
You’re not the least bit conscious at of Palestinian suffering, you simply give lip service to it. In your derranged mind, the fear and inscurity that Israelis live under equally trageic as the massacre of 1,400 Palestinians. It would never even occur to you if they were living in fear, becasue all that matters is hat your beloved and precious Israel is pampered and indulged.
The idiotic adversaries you refer to include you Witty, because at the end of teh day, there is no daylight brtween you and those idiots. You sahre their didelogy and extremism, only you’re less honest about it.
We’re nto here for your benefit Witty. We’re not here to inspire you. As for inspiration, all you inspire is digust and dismay at Israel and Zionism. The only thing youre persuading, is for us to give up any belief that Israel is redeemable.
LMAO..damn Shingo you are so shy..tell us what you really think!
I post here. A thousand have visited and been utterly turned off by your either/or approach.
For those of us that regard Zionism and Palestinian health as important, my proposals for goal and method still represent some approximation of what is needed.
To go either/or with condemnation, is to ignore the vast majority, and the vast majority of supporters.
You should expand your skillset to actually address the rational arguments. Israel will not be isolated economically, culturally, politically.
The most that will change is to some accountability, which I support.
“I post here. A thousand have visited and been utterly turned off by your either/or approach.”
I guess you just made that up huh Witty? It’s not like you could possibly know that.
“For those of us that regard Zionism and Palestinian health as important, my proposals for goal and method still represent some approximation of what is needed.”
Your poropsal is a recipe for maintaining the statu quo, so your only concern is the health of Zinism.
“You should expand your skillset to actually address the rational arguments. ”
I have and concluded that they beat yours every time.
“Israel will not be isolated economically, culturally, politically.”
That is up to Israel, but it will and it is.
Its true. I can’t know a thousand. More than a dozen have communicated with me after reading here. (Some entirely supportive, some criticizing me for not being sufficiently pro-Zionist, some criticizing me for apologizing for the status quo but confirming their alienation at joining the more intense anti-Zionists).
I don’t seek to “beat” anyone. Is that success in political organizing?
So from 1000 to a dozen, that’s quite a difference Witty. Never one to shy away from hyperbole are we?
Does it matter? America isn’t chained to the hip to Hamas, Lebanon, or Syria. We are subsidizing Israeli ethnic cleansing and colonization with the blood of our people and financial handouts that feed a mounting budget deficit that has real-world consequences for Americans in terms of resources lost that could have been invested in American industry, education, healthcare, etc.
We give you our blood and money; we have every right to expect you to adhere to our social and political values when you spend them. We give Hamas, Lebanon, and Syria nothing, and therefore have no righteous expectation that they gravitate towards our social and political values.
Is it within Hamas’ reach? Lebanon’s? Syria’s? Who cares? You are on our dime and time. You get there first then we’ll talk.
Oh my G_d! Someone is criticizing Israel!! Quick quick! change the topic!!!
*invades Syria*
That’ll show ‘em. We’re a sovereign country, goddamnit! Now add one more zero to the back of that cheque and I can leave your sinful goyim land.
Has anyone ever claimed that Lebanon, Syria or Hamas were the “only democracy/ies” in the Mideast? Surely higher behaviour is expected of “the only democracy” in the Mideast? cough, cough, splutter
MDM, as you know, the ‘only democracy in the ME’ brand is advertising schtick trying to create a sense of shared values between israel and the west. i don’t see it. and that’s not an endorsement of western values, it’s just that life in israel does not appear to be much like life in the US or W-europe. frankly, given the choice I’d rather live in Lebanon or Jordan than Israel from what little I know. (well, if Israel could just restrain itself from bombing the shit out of Lebanon, of course.)
marc b were you mad when 150,000 Lebanese killed each other in the Lebanon civil war started by Arafat.
Or Arabs killing each other is no big deal to the left.
yes, ‘shamir’, arabs killing arabs does bother me, although i would take exception to your summary of the lebanese civil war. but ‘arabs killing arabs’ is not an excuse for israelis killing arabs.
i think we should come up w/some code for the diversion posts of the israel defenders to facilitate us staying on topic. lebanese killing lebanese is about as far from the topic as cats drinking milk.
it irks me no end when phil writes a post and it gets highjacked in seconds flat.
I think there is really only one Zionist on the internet. He just keeps changing names and spouting the same garbage.
Any killing is a big deal to the left and the right. Now I have my doubts about the neoconservative/fake right. I’m not sure how neoconservatives such as Elliott Abrams feel about it. After all, he was complicit in mass murder in Central America, so I’m merely extrapolating how he might feel about others. But I guess it’s not fair to brush all neoconservatives with such a broad stroke.
So if American values are now of the neoconservative kind, you’re right Shamir, maybe Israeli policies are in synch will ours. We invade, occupy and torture and kill people, so I guess we do have similar policies and values.
Shamir,
You have never read Moshe Sharett’s diaries, have you?
El-Ad’s dichotomy doesn’t really hold up. Israel’s entire existence is a violation of international law. It was born in violation and continues to violate more and more international laws as the occupation continues.
Does anyone really think that there would be an Israel anything like the criminal state we have today, if international law had been imposed on it?
It is international law that delegitimatizes Israel’s existence and cancels any right it might claim to legitimacy.
To all of those Zionists on this board who claim that Palestine did not exist: neener, neener, neener. You’re wrong, sports fans. From The Jerusalem Post today, Palestine extended from present day Israel to Turkey. It’s Eratz Palestine, not Eratz Israel:
link to jpost.com
The same international standards that condemn Israel for exercising its right of self defense, that turns a blind eye to the Iranian nuclear threat and that overlooks human rights abuses in all the Middle Eastern dictatorships.
THOSE international standards.
>> The same international standards that condemn Israel for exercising its right of self defense …
Since Israel’s “right of self-defense” includes expansionism, occupation and the on-going destruction of Palestinian land and livelihoods, the condemnation is merited.
>> … that turns a blind eye to the Iranian nuclear threat …
There is no Iranian nuclear threat. If the Iranians do end up with nukes, it will be out of defensive necessity, a response to the constant threats of attacks from Israel and the U.S. It has plenty of evidence in its own neighbourhood of what happens to weaker nations.
>> … and that overlooks human rights abuses in all the Middle Eastern dictatorships.
The human rights abuses of those nations are not overlooked. It must really suck, though, that the abuses carried on by Israel within and without its borders are increasingly falling under similar scrutiny.
“‘The same international standards that condemn Israel for exercising its right of self defense”‘
Israel has not denfended itself since 1973, which was the last time Israel was atacked. Israel has laucnhed every war since then.
There is no Iranian nuclear threat. There is no evidence of any Iranian nuclear wepoans program. Not only does Ehud Barakand Tzipi LIvni both agree even a nuclear armed Iran is no threat, but 80% of Israelis do.
“This is another sign that there are currents in Israeli society that want their country to be judged by international standards.”
Witty is not one of them.