I'm struck by the hysterical tone of Hirsh Goodman's piece saying that Israel must go to war against critical information. You'd think Goodman would be more worldly. He grew up in South Africa, was a reporter for many years, and is married to a New York Times correspondent. Yet he defends the murderous flotilla raid and the onslaught of Gaza in 08-09, and is angry that Israel is not getting its message out so as to maintain its image in the world, and its lifeline of international support.
The obvious response to Goodman is that this battle is lost. The world is tired of Israel shaping the news, the world is tired of miraculous battles with "terrorists" in which nine non-Jews are killed and all the Israelis survive, and the dispossession doesn't stop. Even in the U.S. public opinion is now in play. Every day in the West Bank, Jewish colonists run over Palestinians on the Jews-only roads, or Israeli soldiers shoot young Palestinians, or evict families from their homes. That's what the world is focused on.
Still: Goodman feels the walls closing in. Almost all Israelis seem to feel the same way.
I spend a lot of my day doing Palestinian solidarity, trying to put myself in another people's shoes. So what about solidarity with the Israelis? At a time when many people are clearly demonizing Israel (other states do bad stuff too; I was in Egypt last year, oppressive), why am I not on the side of the people I grew up calling my own, the Jews, and with them the Israelis, so many of them similar culturally to me?
This is a genuine challenge, morally, spiritually, politically.
I first heard it a year ago in Gaza. A psychotherapist said to my group, Please, please put yourself in the minds of the Israelis, you who are their friends. We are imprisoned but they are not free. They are gripped by fear; how else can you explain their wanton destruction of our society. Something must be done for these people-- and the therapist was calling on us to reach out to them and try and heal them.
The therapist felt, as I feel, that only greater bloodshed is likely to result until the Israelis overcome a psychosis. As Matthew Taylor wrote,
During my travels in Israel, I found many of the Israeli Jews I interviewed to be intensely scared to their deepest core, behind all of the bluster and tough talk about not giving an inch to the Arabs. We must remember: understandable, justifiable fear of anti-Jewish oppression was the most powerful motivating factor for the project of political Zionism from its inception 130 years ago, and I argue that fear still is the primary motivating factor whether it's justified fear or not
In a word, Hirsh Goodman.
The reason I do Palestinian solidarity is that there is no question about who is suffering and who isn't in Israel and Palestine. It is a grotesquely unjust situation with respect to human and civil rights, reminiscent of American slavery in the unfairness and the benediction granted the unfairness in Washington. Back then, I would have been a writer for an abolitionist newspaper; I'm proud to be doing this work.
As a Jew, I believe the only way to save my fellows from the despair of what Israel has become is not to justify Israel's actions, it is for American Jews to reclaim their tradition of liberalism and fight the Israel lobby in this country and convey their social/political understanding to the Israelis.
I use the word psychosis because Israeli society is conditioned by the Holocaust and the 6 million and the belief that Jews can trust no one else. As Norman Mailer said, Hitler's bitterest achievement was reducing Jews to the concern, Is it good for the Jews?
But not Mailer. And this is the sad truth about Zionism: it distilled distrust. Its nationalistic appeal sorted out Jews who were fearful about antisemitism from those who were not. It sorted out those who believe that Jews must look out for Jews from those who favor integration in western societies. It sorted out the ethnocentric, Is-it-good-for-the-Jews types, from Jews who think it's OK to marry non-Jews. And in that division, the fearful took power. They moved to Israel or manned the barricades of the Israel lobby, and the integrators married non-Jews or wrote books about jazz and checked out. The fearful were granted power by the rest of the community. It is no coincidence that Leon Wieseltier, one of the stalwarts of the Israel lobby in this country, is someone who has at times embraced paranoia (I think he called it anxiety) and was a member of the Jewish Defense League when he was in high school. Richard Perle and David Frum ("victory or Holocaust", sending us to Iraq) are probably just as bad. Jeffrey Goldberg concluded as a young man studying the Holocaust and the American response that the diaspora was the "disease" and Israel was the cure, and so he moved to Israel and served in a prison that oppresses Palestinians. All these men think that Jews must rely on themselves. And with that understanding, they are isolating the Jews of Israel from the world.
So I accept the charge. I am part of the Jewish community, and feel solidarity with the Jews of Israel. And the best thing I can do for them now is to convey to them firmly but kindly, this is not the way to deal with other people, and many, many Jews have reached that understanding. You are isolating yourselves from the world, it is time to listen. Please.
Should all Italians honor bonds of tribal kinship with the Sicilian mafia or should they declare the mafia an utter disgrace to all things Italian and vow to help destroy it?
Italians identify themselves more with their village, town, even local wine or cheese, more than they adamantly defend an Italian identity. Italy has been united for a shorter time than has the US. Unlike the US, Venicians and Florentines and Napolitanos had an identity and a deep and complex history for millenia before Italy became a unified entity.
So the comparison is not quite apt.
yes..I agree. Obviously, in a literal sense, the analogy is flawed. Nevertheless, the analogy can easily be adjusted for greater accuracy.The underlying point seems to me unimpeachable. A subset of any group behaving abominably should be singled out for condemnation, not enthusiastically embraced.
But we Jews haven’t got much to embrace and some will take what they can get. We can’t embrace our common language. We can’t embrace our shared religious convictions–smart Jews tossed these out ages ago. A desperate effort to bind us all together through genetics leaves no one convinced.
Luckily, there’s always Israel. We are united through our Jewish nation. It may be that giving up on Israel is really giving up on Jewishness. As a Jew, this bothers me not one whit. I could honestly care less. For many Jews, the thought is utterly intolerable.
Again, the problem is the pronoun: Who is the “we?” For the people in question the Judaic religion is gone, there’s no common language, so all that remains of their Jewishness is Israel and Hitler. Israel is an abomination, and one need not be Jewish to abhor Hitler. So why don’t they lay their burden down and join the rest of humankind?
“Sorry y’all. We were just kidding. Everyone knows there’s no such thing as a Jewish people. C’mon. It’s a crazier idea than the Easter Bunny.”
That just ain’t gonna happen. One reason is that so many benefits are attached to Jewishness. There’s nothing like it to turn the mediocre mind into something incredible. This point was neglected in Michael Chabon’s dreary and much talked about piece on Jewish identity in the Times. Chabon hadn’t the honesty to point out that the milking of Jewish identity allows perfectly average writers like him to rapidly ascend the social ladder. Go check out his site. A non-jewish writer putting fdown that sort of half baked crap would NOT have a career in letters, I can tell you that.
In apartheid South Africa, except for a mere handful of people, Jews were strong and long term supporters of apartheid to the bitter end. If any group of Jews claims authority to teach whites how to be a white racist it is these.
Yes, that isn’t pointed out quite enough. And as far as it goes Jewish integration into US. Southern Aristocracy. I don’t know how many time I had to point out that Judah P. Benjamin was the Vice President of the Confedaracy and a life long friend of Jefferson Davis. I would add my own unique upbringing and experience, but, my back is killing me, and I just wrote a long and well typed response to Menachem “Begin” and hit post and it friggen disappeared after asking me to log in which I was. Low on patiance, high on aggravation.
“I just wrote a long and well typed response ..;hit post and it friggen disappeared”
So that sort of thing doesn’t just happen to me!
Any time you are writing more than a paragraph in a browser window at Mondoweiss or anywhere else, I recommend you switch to a text editor. If you are writing more than a few paragraphs, I recommend you save the document as well along the way.
I even keep a keylogger on my primary computer for just-in-case scenarios.
Computers/technology are fragile. Protect yourself.
With all due respect for Les, a short look into Wikipedia will prove him wrong. We Jews can be blamed for much, but not for apartheid.
You are not paying attention. In his “Unspoken Alliance: Israel’s Secret Relationship With Apartheid South Africa,” Sasha-Polakow-Surnansky discusses Jewish unwavering support for apartheid. I hope you don’t use the excuse that you are Jewish for being the poor student you appear to be.
Sasha-Polakow-Surnansky presents conclusions which are disputed by other scholars; I suggest that you have decided which of them are correct without doing any research of your own, no matter how good a student you think you are or how bad a student I, in truth, may be.
Israel And Apartheid: By People Who Knew Apartheid
link to lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com
Why Would Anyone Think It’s Apartheid?
link to lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com
Well maybe you’d like to leave a link or offer a quote or a source, rather than simply asserting Les is wrong…
Sasha was quite astonished to discover that all but a handful of South Africa’s Jews were apartheid supporters and to the bitter end at that. His discovery is a fact. ariehzimmerman is obliged to supply facts that override Sasha’s. This is not a matter of having a disagreement about the interpretation of the facts which ariehzimmerman seems not to dispute.
That’s OK, Phil, Congress is on the job! link to ynetnews.com
link to thehill.com
In other words, the rest of the fuckers refused to sign on. The entire world compares the Free Gaza movement to the US civil rights movement, except the Congressional Black Caucus, that doesn’t give a damn.
..and Obama’s justice dept is going all out to throw the book at the guy who leaked the video of one of our air atrocities in Afghanistan to wikileaks, complete with the signature US Nazis laughing about the murders. To reiterate the obvious, no charges will be forthcoming against the killers–just the messenger.
Nothing ever changes in this vile craphole that poses as a nation.
Its another Kamm.
Taking a leak in public is again the law.
Black Agenda Report on CBC’s perpetual punk out. link to blackagendareport.com
or, said another way,
As Members of Congress, we must provide the world an IMMEDIATE visual image that we still firmly stand with Israel by inviting Prime Minister Netanyahu to address a joint session of Congress. The symbolism of both sides of the aisle standing together applauding the Israeli Prime Minister would be powerful enough to send the message that friends may
have disagreements, but they will still stand strongly with each otherkill their closest ally’s citizens, but they will still kiss that ‘friend’s’ ass, upon demand.I said it in response to Matthew Taylor’s blog. The sad fact is that Palestinians need to teach Israelis how to overcome their fear, how to be free, how to be just, and all that stuff. In a sense, Israeli salvation comes through Palestinian freedom – and I’m not talking about the racist two-state solution either.
Sam
Time to put this fiction to rest.
The Israelis don’t kick an elderly Arab woman from her home in East Jerusalem because they’re afraid of her.
They do it because they are Nazis.
A lot of what motivated the Nazis was fear. It may not have been a reasonable fear, but it was there.
It may not have been a reasonable fear, but it was there.
Lysias, it was not fear, it was indoctrination. The Jews were made scapegoats. They were manufactured to be the enemy.
That is not fear, that is propaganda.
decentjew and Sherbrsi,
that’s just silly. You don’t just become a label and you don’t just believe propaganda.
It’s not just fear, although that is a big part. You can’t reduce it to just one thing. In your logic then the solution would be to kill all the Nazis??
It’s not just fear, although that is a big part. You can’t reduce it to just one thing.
That is my point exactly. While fear may play some part in it, it is being made to be the sole reason, with the nuance being that fear may be reasonable or not. That doesn’t begin to encompass the issue. And like I said, I don’t give fear (whether legitimate or irrational) any credence in it, for the Palestinians pose little threat to the Israelis, the latter having brutally conquered the former for decades under a military occupation. Certainly not when used in any fashion to justify Israeli atrocities, for then you could easily claim that the Nazi’s justified their horrors under the grip of a national fear, when the problem was not the fear itself but the fear-mongering.
In your logic then the solution would be to kill all the Nazis??
Where does that solution come from, and who is advocating that?
That’s a non-sequitur.
Fear does not have to be of something real – you can fear an imagined threat. You fear the fantasy of what could be. That fantasy is very very real. You can’t dismiss that just because the Palestinians “pose little threat.” Well, you can, but you won’t get anywhere. Even the Palestinians acknowledge that Israelis have fear. it isn’t anything new and I’m not sure why we are even arguing about that.
Fear does not have to be of something real – you can fear an imagined threat. You fear the fantasy of what could be. That fantasy is very very real. You can’t dismiss that just because the Palestinians “pose little threat.” Well, you can, but you won’t get anywhere.
There you have it. “You fear the fantasy of what could be.” That is the reasoning that fueled the Nazi imagination and propaganda against the Jews taking over Germany.
Irrational fear is not to be indulged, but dismissed for its lack of basis in reality. It is not to be nursed. Israel has been handled with kids gloves for 60 years, and its atrocities only worsen, and the “mad dog” state is only lashing out in more murderous ways.
If the Zionists have been made a monster state, it is because they have been allowed to be. And people like you have been involved in every step of the way, burdening its victims with proving the injustice against them.
Fear does not have to be of something real – you can fear an imagined threat. You fear the fantasy of what could be. That fantasy is very very real.
Imagined fear is not fear, but paranoia.
“Fear does not have to be of something real – you can fear an imagined threat. You fear the fantasy of what could be. That fantasy is very very real. You can’t dismiss that just because the Palestinians “pose little threat.” Well, you can, but you won’t get anywhere. Even the Palestinians acknowledge that Israelis have fear.”
Fear in Latin is phobia. Now, how does a therapist help their patients get over phobias which are debilitating to the sufferer (in this case I question whether this fear of Palestinians is debilitating or self-serving because Israel BENEFITS from it’s “fear”-they don’t have to do anything because they have a “legitimate fear”as even yourself wrote “a little threat”)
A while back I heard Dr. Laura (who I rarely agree with but in this case she was on point with therapy) speaking to a woman who called in with agoraphobia. That woman had been able to get herself out of the house, but she still just couldn’t drive on freeways (a common agoraphobic symptom). Dr. Laura told her to get on the freeway and drive to the next exit and get off. Repeat several times, then go two exits on the freeway. Then more exits and to call her back after a month, When the woman called back lo and behold she was driving just fine on the freeway for miles.
So, my sister-in-law also suffers from this malady, not driving on the freeways. I suggested this way to get over not driving on freeways which limits her mobility but is also a GREAT excuse as to not being able to drive herself places and she responded that she just couldn’t do this.
I said, “Why Heather?”
Her response, “Because I just know I’ll have a panic attack”
Me, “How do you know that?”
Her, “I just know”
Me, “And when was the last time you had a panic attack driving yourself on the freeway?”
Her: 35 years ago.
In the meantime Heather gets to use her fear to manipulate where she will go, where she can’t possibly drive herself, and who has to take her places that would take her three times as long to get to without driving the freeway.
Israel’s “fear”, is SELF SERVING and manipulative. They benefit more from being fearful than not because they get to keep what they think is theirs! And the rest of the world just plays along and never tells them to get on the freeway because God forbid, they might have a panic attack never ONCE considering what Palestinians go through on a daily basis and have gone through for more than 60 years, their lands being stolen and not allowed to return home because of the Zionist’s FEARS.
I’m sick of this being used as an excuse, Enough already! Either Israel is mentally healthy or they aren’t (which is obvious) but the world is not responsible NOR are the Palestinians for atoning for Zionist fears!
“Enough already!” is a good translation of a slogan I have seen on banners in the demonstrations about the Mavi Marmara massacre in Turkey: “Artık yeter!”
Listen, I’m not going to disagree with you that the fear is misplaced. I know and you know. But the fear, Sherbrsi, does have a basis in reality. That’s the sad part. It might not be a basis you and I think is right, but it is a basis. Paranoia is real, whether it is imagined or not, the person lives it as real.
I’ll give you another example. Christians in Lebanon fear they will be slowly expelled by the Muslims. The fear, I would argue, is legitimate. Meaning, we have to take it into account. is it right? No. Is there a factual basis for it? I would also argue no. But in the Christian imaginary, there is a basis. You need to change that imaginary. You need to change it for the Israeli because, YES, the Israeli uses it for his/her own self interest, as would anyone else: like HollyTree’s sister. She ain’t a bad person. That’s just the way the psychology of fear works.
And no, you don’t entertain it. That’s not what I’m saying. But you have to acknowledge that it exists and that it comes from somewhere. A suicide bomber encourages that fear – whether he/she is defending or doing the greatest deed on earth. You can’t tell an Israeli who just lost a limb that this threat isn’t real. Even though you and I might agree that it isn’t real and that it is a reaction, and so on. But s/he lost a limb! There is a basis, regardless of the politics you and I know about.
To just ignore the Jewish imaginary of victimization, and claim that it has no basis (I’m sorry, but the Holocaust serves some basis at least), seems a bit, well, a bit, I don’t know…naive perhaps?
Paranoia is real, whether it is imagined or not, the person lives it as real.
What you are describing is delusion, and the solution for that is not sympathy, but treatment.
Here is someone who actually doing some to diagnose that:
link to palestinethinktank.com
You need to follow her example, instead of being an apologist for Israel’s racist and murderous policies and crimes.
Plus, it would help you to read this article. Its conclusion is particularly relevant:
link to mondoweiss.net
so what is the phenomenon today, sherbrsi, fear or propaganda?
wrt to US attitudes toward Iranians, are they the result of fear or propaganda?
wrt to US attitudes toward Iranians, are they the result of fear or propaganda?
Definitely propaganda.
I used to watch the late night show with Jay Leno sometimes. In the initial segment of the show, Leno cracks jokes on current affairs. When it was revealed in the news that Ahmedinajad had some Jewish ancestry, Leno quipped: “He is so anti-semitic, why doesn’t he just kill himself?”
You have to wonder, why such a popular tv personality would concern himself with such news, or even joke about it in such a manner as to appease the Zionist hardliners. I realized that the Iranians have been so deeply vilified in the media, that suggestions of suicide to its leaders are now punchlines to stand-up comedians.
As far as I am concerned, the American involvement in the Iranian issue should have been shut and closed the second Clinton admitted that America that Iran poses no existential threat to the United States.
But they know who they are fighting this war for, and so do an increasingly growing number of Americans.
To use America defend Israel is one thing, an issue of dual loyalty. But to use it as a proxy to project its wars and offensives is entirely another, a matter of singular loyalty.
I can only hope that the Zionists in America are ousted for the warmongering thugs they are.
This is too simplistic. In the real world the Jews faced discrimination or even death at the hands of their neighbors too many times, in too many places, during the past two thousand years. It could be expected that some degree of paranoia would be the justifiable result.
Does this fact justify the actions of too many Israeli governments’ intolerable treatment of an enemy so much militarily and economically weaker? No, of course not.
I cannot know your background, HollyTree, and it might in the end be irrelevant, but you may be assuming far more than good sense should allow. It is undeniable that current right-wing Israeli politicians and apologists manipulate, or attempt to manipulate the Israeli public into further paranoia in order to further the immoral goals of the Hill Top settlers. But from that to conclude that “Israelis”, that is, all Israelis, are guilty of their government’s actions is inaccurate, and ill thought out.
I quote you:, “Either Israel is mentally healthy or they aren’t (which is obvious)”.
Notice please, that your language segues from ‘Israel’ to ‘they’ with no more justification than when Israelis say “they”, meaning all Palestinians, rather than specifying who exactly within the Palestinian citizenry they ought to mean. 1,500,000 Palestinians in Gaza are not terrorists; 6,000,000 Jewish Israelis are not racists or quite so fearful as you assume. It is always, always a mistake to generalize about millions of people, any people.
All propaganda is based on fear.
My question would be Sam, in what respect could this fear be related to the wrongs done to the Palestinian people?
Could it be partly the same fear all tyrants must have felt over the ages? I admittedly am not very fond of the idea of “fearful Nazis”, that’ feels like turning things upside down.
Avner Falk failed me completely in his analysis of suicide bombers. Ultimately they desire a “fusion with the mother” which is the Palestinian soil, land, earth. This feels like a mirror game. As he doesn’t answer the question why it took so long for them to realize this desire for “mother earth” or address the difference between Jewish and Palestinian terrorism. Can the terror of the strong ever resemble that of the weak?
Hi Sam, why is the job or role of the Palestinians “to teach the Israelis how to overcome, their fear, how to be free, how to be just, and all that stuff”? This to me buys into the Zionist narrative, as it casts Zionists as the “eternal victim” and absolves them from being responsible for their actions, aggression and human rights abuses against the Palestinians. It also buys into the Zionist tactic by focusing the narrative on the supposed “needs” of the oppressor and occupier (ie. Israel), rather than on the needs of the oppressed and occupied (ie. the Palestinians).
Solidarity forever.
link to juancole.com
Dayan Calls for Assassination of Erdogan via Sinking of his Proposed Aid Ship
Posted on June 12, 2010 by Juan
The former deputy general Chief of Staff of the Israeli military has called for a proposed aid ship to Gaza from Turkey to be sunk by the Israeli navy. Since the Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, pledged to be aboard the proposed vessel, Uzi Dayan, the nephew of Moshe Dayan, was implicitly calling for the assassination of the Turkish prime minister.
Congress might as well pass a resolution now saying it’s OK to assassinate heads of state because Israelhastherighttodefenditself.
>> All these men think that Jews must rely on themselves. And they are isolating the Jews of Israel from the world.<<<
So then why spend so much energy in making sure that they get American-Gentile support?
To be honest, I am getting tired of these lectures telling us that the Israelis are "scared" and we have to make them "feel safe." These people are not doing what they are doing because of fear. Rather, they are doing it out of a sense superiority. The Ubermensch…I mean the "Chosen People" mentality is the problem here, not fear.
So they feel superior not fearful. So you have to bring them down to earth. Its the same thing. The burden is on the oppressed, unfortunate as that may be.
I see….so in order to be consistent, I assume that you agree that the burden was on the Jews to make sure that the Nazi’s were “brought down to earth?”
You make a fair point. Certainly Jewish leaders had input into what was done to Germany after WW2, but they were by no means the exclusive interest shouldering that burden.
And I shudder to think what would have been done to Germans if Zionists had been given free reign to “bring them down to earth.”
Which I guess says nothing about the fact that, really, most of the soldiers who fought against Nazi Germany were not Jewish, merely on account of the sheer mathematics involved. They couldn’t be.
So you’re right on two counts, olive.
Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, the son of an anti-Zionist Jewish statesman, wanted Germany reduced to a pastoral state, in which God knows how many people would have died. The Morgenthau Doctrine was even briefly adopted at a joint Anglo-American conference. Fortunately, saner counsels prevailed, and the doctrine was quickly disavowed.
The burden is on the oppressed, unfortunate as that may be.
That’s nonsense. If your twisted world view was instated, it would be the burden on the victim of a rape to “bring the rapist down to Earth.” Similarly, the slave would have to appeal to his master’s humanity to make him see the error of his ways.
Do you follow the same reasoning in claiming that the victims of Nazis bear the burden of making their murderers see the light?
That is nonsense and you know it.
Any sane and lawful society imposes reasonable and punitive damages on those who act criminally and unlawfully.
The problem with Israel will always be, as it has been since its inception, that it is allowed the exceptional role of being protected for its vile acts, and even rewarded for it in some ways, where any other state would be rightly held accountable by international norms and politics.
And I am not sure what Weiss is advocating here, but by painting the Israelis as victims of their willful actions, he is perpetuating the very victim hood and siege mentality of the Israelis which he is seeking to alleviate.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. Your logic is the realism that has brought us to where we are. I’m not saying the only burden is on the victim. And I’m not even saying in all cases. I am saying that in this case, and possibly in the case of the Nazis and rape victim (and I’m not saying the victim/oppressed should sit down and take it – no, I’m saying they should resist but keep this in mind as one goal). On the other hand, your approach is to just create monsters of your enemy. I think that’s what the Zionists have done. Your logic is the one that just about every world leader follows. You’re in good company.
I think that’s what the Zionists have done. Your logic is the one that just about every world leader follows. You’re in good company.
Just about “every world leader” follows imposing “reasonable and punitive damages on those who act criminally and unlawfully?”
You’re not making any sense.
No, I was referring to the logic that makes a monster out of your enemy and then assumes if you punish them all your problems will go away.
if you punish them all your problems will go away.
Since when does lawful accountability = punishment?
You are still making strawman arguments, setting up claims that I never made and then attacking them.
I have no interest in such dialogue.
Obviously that is not logic, and is not logical. Every kind of politician,of whatever nature and nation, and any form of government has manipulated the “great beast” with consummate ease to do what he, or they, want the beast to do.
They, (including my current leaders), thump their swelled out chests, cry danger, and brand the enemy as immoral evil doers.
The lumpen proletariat will drink down any poisonous swill it is given. In this, the Israeli masses are no different than any other.
That’s BS. Israel is not like America. That’s why the press here is so completely pro-Israel and that is why we do not have regular exposure to the Israeli mindset.
Israel is a profoundly racist, discriminatory State. It only exists because 800K Palestinians were driven out of their homes by Zionist thugs and goons. The Zionists always intended on grabbing more land and the war presented them with the opportunity to do so and ‘create’ a Jewish majority.
That is what Israel means = Jewish majority.
I suggest that you have never been in Israel, nor in Palestine. I strongly suggest that you do not have as many Palestinian friends as I do. I suggest even more strongly that my government and its policies is more repugnant to me than to you.
I will resist the nagging desire to correct your mistakes as to do so would seem to have me defending the Israeli crimes against a far weaker opponent, which is what you are fishing for, are you not?
I don’t know if it’s much consolation, olive, but there are piles of history describing what happens to European (and Russian) cultures that indulge in racial superiority complexes. It always ends up the worst possible — for them.
I think the Fear and Superiority Complex are linked, look at the history of Ethnic-Nationalism, without researching a comprehensive list I’m struggling to think of an example that was not deeply afraid. There is a difference to most examples with Israel, in that the Holocaust occured during the founding decades of the experiment, but indulging the paranoia is not the way to help the paranoid.
As one of the examples of ethnic nationalism, Zionism arose at more or less the same time and place of German and Polish ethnic nationalism in Eastern Europe. You can see how sick and twisted it gets in today’s world with the quest for a Jewish gene which is really a search at the behest of those Jews who need proof that they are white. The search for a/the Jewish gene is like eugenics, which we know to distinguish from genetics.
The whole point of Sand’s first chapter is that Jewish ethnic consciousness and history arose out of German ethnic consciousness and history. He quite plausibly derives Graetz’s history of the Jewish people from slightly earlier German national histories.
That is one of the most succinct description of the crimes Zionists have inflicted on the Jewish people, putting aside what they’ve done to Palestinians and others.
Phil, I think you do the Jewish people a fantastic service by identifying the truth of the matter. The fact is, it’s not Palestinians who are the threat to Jewish people — as Richard Goldstone and Emily Henochowitz and many others have found out — it’s Zionists who are trying to tear the greater Jewish community asunder and “excommunicate” (or attempt to murder outright) their fellow Jews for not playing toady and accomplice to their crimes of avarice.
oops, i just realized both of us highlighted this section chaos. you’re right, it’s totally succinct. sorry for the repeat downthread.
Realizing comprehension is becoming a rarity, some folk wisdom learned in the family was: “It costs as much to fence an 80 (acres) in as it does to fence it out (of a section)”. Needless to say, comprehending the import of that wisdom will be left to the reader as there are no right answers, just better ones.
The glaring fact fundamental to the Palestinian/Israeli “problem” is the question of security; this applies equally to both parties. That security will only happen when the Palestinians become secure in their dealings with the Israelis; mirrored exactly from Israel’s perspective.
It is when a nation’s body of political beliefs become based upon lies and propaganda, whatever its marketing, those beliefs become nothing but lies and self-deceptions, and from those fertile grounds all manner of barbarous acts are born. It’s ultimately not important who lied first, what becomes important that the flow of lies is stopped and account is made of the human costs of those lies, responsibility taken for those acts rooted in those deceptions, and all efforts are made to terminate those lies.
Peace will return to Palestine only when the Israelis act to secure the interests of the Palestine people and the Palestine people in turn act to secure the interests of the Israeli, to bring to an end the crimes committed, one upon the other from the beginning. At this point in history, inclusiveness is the only resolution remaining, the eviction or political enslavement of one or the other can only lead to more crimes being committed, or so it would seem; certainly the psychosis and bad blood is obviously not the way forward. That justice that once ruled the Jewish people needs be applied to their Palestinian cousins and returned in equal measure, it does the least harm and is the most likely to change history, for the better.
Just one person’s opinion.
avarice.
is that what it’s all about?
How many liars do N Y Times has?
Judith for Iraq
Gordon for Iran
and quite a few for Flotilla.
or are they clone of just one big liar?
Kershner, Bronner, Friedman, and many others for Israel.
Zionism: it distilled distrust. Its nationalistic appeal sorted out Jews who were fearful about antisemitism from those who are not. It sorted out those who believe that Jews must look out for Jews from those who favor integration in western societies. It sorted out the ethnocentric, Is it good for the Jews types, from Jews who think it’s OK to marry non-Jews. And in that division, the fearful took power. They moved to Israel or manned the barricades of the Israel lobby, and the integrators married non-Jews or wrote books about jazz and checked out.
and the best of them, like you didn’t check out. excellent post, excellent analysis.
And the best thing I can do for them now is to convey to them firmly but kindly, this is not the way to deal with other people, and many, many Jews have reached that understanding. You are isolating yourself from the world, it is time to listen. Please.
people are really starting to listen, but will israelis? i hope so.
I’ll say this carefully (not violating the comments policy) since all of my comments must “await moderation” by those who censor information.
I should ask though, why am I continually moderated when I have not violated the comments policy, censoring information is immoral especially when it is vital to protect against hate-speech
The discourse on the forum does not aide in alieviating Jewish insecurities, rather the anti-semitism that is found in the pages of this website boosts it considerably. The concept that a government naval ship coming to breach a maritime blockade that is legal under international law is a declaration of war, and that the ship may be sunk, is legitimate under international law
If you’re censored, then how come your ridiculous comments are still making it to the blog?
“the anti-semitism that is found in the pages of this website”
I’m not going to let you off the hook on this one. I should ignore it, but the problem is that even suggesting this unfortunately is enough to believe it for some people. You know this is a lie, and this accusation has become totally absurd by now.
maritime blockade that is legal under international law is a declaration of war
Totally false. It is illegal. Attacking a foreign-flagged ship IS an act of war, however, if the attack was authorized by the IDF.
Please, most of the people he thinks are Anti-Semites are Jews. To bad “The Jew whisperer” doesn’t come around anymore, he was great at telling people why they weren’t really Jewish or were self-hating. Ahh, good times…good times.
I’ve had a few ‘awaiting moderation’ comments and I think I’ve been playing nicely on the whole, so you are not the only one
Awaiting moderation?
Here’s an explanation :
Just some statements of yours from two recent threads :
“beliefs that are counter to those that harm the Jewish people as a whole.”
“it is vital to protect against hate-speech”
“the anti-semitism that is found in the pages of this website”
“That does not excuse her anti-semitism”
“promote the spread of Jew hating in general”
You don’t understand that it has nothing to do with what you’re saying (which could be defended if you offered some kind of argument) – it has to do with the fact that there is an obvious dishonesty, predictability, and hidden agenda in your comments. They’re letting you comment anyway, so what’s the problem? Do you want a band aid for that maximalist bobo?
Phillip, you’re my hero. We’re all humans.
Stated by maximalist “The concept that a government naval ship coming to breach a maritime blockade that is legal under international law is a declaration of war, and that the ship may be sunk, is legitimate under international law”
Pure nonsense. The Mavi Marmara ship was not a government naval ship first of all and furthermore the ship was flagged by Comoros at the time of the pirate assault in international waters.
link to afterdowningstreet.org
See that? Comoros flagged which is significant because Comoros signed the Rome Statute and the case of attack on a ship flagged to THEIR country can be taken before the ICC.
Take a little trip there to Comoros, a beautiful little island in the Indian Ocean
link to comores-online.com
does it have oil? copper? gold? diamonds? can Iran be attacked from Comoros?
link to vesseltracker.com
Type of ship: Passenger ship
IMO Number: 9005869 Flag: Comoros
MMSI Number: 616952000 Length: 93.0m
Callsign: D6FU2 Beam: 20.0m
Maybe someone here with a flair for quotes can remind me who said that after the holocaust, Israel was the worst thing to happen to the Jews.
Great line.
Wasn’t it Hannah Arendt?
one of the better pieces i’ve seen on here.
it depends on whether you feel solidarity with gideon levy, neve gordon, jonathon cook and richard silverstein as well as norman finkelstein, noam chomsky and gilad atzmon (the latter three stated separately since they don’t identify as “jewish” per se but have ties to judaism and, in atzmon’s and chomsky’s case, israel) or if you have the urge to feel it with the 94% of israelis that supported cast lead and had picnics while watching the carnage.
i would no more link their disparate views than i would those of the gestapo and the white rose (and no, that isn’t an ad hominem “israelis = nazis” comparison, just a geographic analogy.) i understand the draw of identity and community, but it’s a two edged sword as even the disturbingly pro-zionist anthony weiner discovered when he decided to marry a muslim.
Richard Silverstein is an aggressively silly person. He shouldn’t be placed in the company of Chomsky and Finkelstein. He’s both belligerent and shockingly uninformed.
I’m sick and tired of all this Jewish whining. If a people lets fear dominate their lives, it’s because they let it, because they cultivate it, celebrate it, make it a slogan central to their existence.
So the Jews have a trauma, so we have to forgive them everything? Fuck that.
What about the Palestinian trauma? The Nakba? What about the Palestinian fear? Which people has the reasonable expectation that the jackboots will kick in their door at night and drag them off to torture? It’s not the Israeli Jews. Which people has fighter jets screaming overhead at night? It’s not the Israeli Jews.
Jews don’t have a monopoly on trauma. Maybe it’s time for Zionists to make some effort to understand the trauma and suffering they’ve caused. Helen Thomas is vilified because she wants the Jews to leave Palestine. Maybe her critics should give her a pass, because, as a Lebanese Arab, her people have been traumatized, largely by events set in motion by Israel. Doesn’t that excuse her, if we’re being asked to excuse the Jews for every crime commited by Israel?
Good post.
hear hear.
oh..and I particularly like this comment from the courageous alison weir on the helen thomas fiasco:
link to palestinethinktank.com
Off topic. Just reported by Al Jazeera that Saudi agreement to allow Israel to use its airspace for attack upon Iran nuclear targets.
link to english.aljazeera.net
This will not end well.
Saudi spokesmen is denying it, saying Israel is using this as a distraction. Who knows at this point what the facts are. Neither party has credibility.
On topic to off topic. Saudi official denial of said reports which originated with Times Online
link to spa.gov.sa
0053 Official source at the Foreign Ministry makes statement
Riyadh, Jun 12, SPA — An official source at the Foreign Ministry told Saudi Press Agency the following:
The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia followed some British media’s allegations based on slander and false accusation that it will allow Israel to launch an attack on Iran through its territory.
The source stated that Kingdom of Saudi Arabia reiterates its position of firm opposition and rejection of the violation of its sovereignty and the use of its airspace or territory by anyone to attack any country and it is more appropriate that Saudi Arabia should apply this policy to the authority of the Israeli occupation with which it has no relationship in any way.
–SPA
21:22 LOCAL TIME 18:22 GMT
So, who was responsible for this disinformation, and why?
This always happens. This report is spread, people freak, Saudi denies it.
Not firmly enough, in my o. Not firmly like “if Israel attacks Iran, Saudi will declare war on Israel.”
I think it’s actually Saudi that spreads the rumor, just to put Iran off-balance, but it’s a dangerous, dangerous trick.
It’s a dangerous trick when people fall for it and don’t think through it logically and it spreads like wildfire. KSA has NO interest in having the Arab world think they would do such a thing just to scare Iran even for a few hours or a day. Fact is you ask yourself who benefits from anything and in this case it is Israel Israel Israel, not KSA.
It is not the first time Times Online has reported such “news”. You tell me who is responsible because they have been reporting this repeatedly for more than a year. Cleverly saying again hmmmmm, let’s see, just last Sunday the Turkish foreign minister was in Jeddah and was interviewed on CNN. Saudi Arabia walks a fine line but to think they all of a sudden have given permission to use their airspace for an Israeli strike on Iran is hogwash,
link to veteranstoday.com
Boil boil toil and trouble propaganda is what it is to foment trouble because ISRAEL is in a heap load of trouble with the entire world over the flotilla incident, the illegal naval siege, you name it.
Here’s another statement made by Saudi Arabia-the first one being from the Foreign Ministry in KSA, this one made by the ambassador to the UK
link to spa.gov.sa
London, Jun 12, SPA — The Ambassador of The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to United Kingdom Prince Mohammed bin Nawaf has categorically denied allegations circulated in British newspapers that the Kingdom has given permission to Israeli aircraft to attack Iran by flying over its territories.
In a press statement today, he said this would be against the policy adopted and followed by the Kingdom.
He reiterated the Kingdom’s stand in rejecting any violation of its territories or airspace.
He added it would be illogical to allow the Israeli occupying force, with whom Saudi Arabia has no relations whatsoever, to use its land and airspace.
–SPA
23:08 LOCAL TIME 20:08 GMT
TThat leaves them no airspace to launch an attack except for maybe some Central-Asian Republics. The Saudi-Monarchy would have to contend with outrage even their Army and Savak couldn’t contain as much as they dislike Shiites they wouldn’t risk it. However we have discussed the Nuclear-armed Submarines patroling The Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf. The Times is just stirring the pot for their masters. A bit of Information-Warfare if you will.
The reasonable question seems to me: was the original announcement a fake or was the retraction a fake? Frankly, I have no idea. The whole thing is severely disturbing. Why is no one even attempting to have Israel condemned in the UN for threatening aggression against Iran? It’s completely outrageous.
Its good to hear you advocating for considering multiple perspectives rather than singular.
I think you are very wrong, biased, in your condemnatory description of very very common Israeli public opinion.
The Israeli perspective of observing habitual condemnation of their existence, and actions to defend their existence, is rational.
Its just not a whole truth. It becomes a plausible whole truth if the ideology of “Zionism is racism” is adopted by dissent, in the form of expedited/advocated delegitimation of Israel.
“So I accept the charge. I am part of the Jewish community, and feel solidarity with the Jews of Israel. And the best thing I can do for them now is to convey to them firmly but kindly, this is not the way to deal with other people, and many, many Jews have reached that understanding. You are isolating yourselves from the world, it is time to listen. Please.”
That is an important statement. Please please sincerely help in that work.
I don’t know what to say regarding solidarity with Jews but I’m happy to lend it. Or at least sympathy. I wish I could offer safety but there really isn’t any such thing. Who knows, we could all perish from environmental disasters we’ve brought on ourselves like global warming anyway (actually I think this is a bit unlikely). Anyway, “the Jews” aren’t in imminent danger right now. Neither is Israel. As for this anti-semitism thing, there’s some that’s real, but IMHO it’s (in the present day) way exaggerated and to a certain extent fostered by the state of Israel, anti-semitism being it’s whole raison d’etre. So I’ve lost a lot of sympathy for it’s so-called victims, and I don’t think the hysteria over it is justified in this day and age. I mean, using the holocaust as a reason to desecrate the Mamilla cemetery and erase non-Jewish history from Palestine, is there anything more calculated to sap all meaning from the holocaust? But I’ll keep my eyes peeled for real anti-(Jewish)-semitism & try to avoid its pitfalls myself.
Really interesting interview with [former Israeli] psychotherapist Avigail Abarbanel:
“Podcast – Tidings Blog interviews Avigail Abarbanel: A therapist looks at Israel”
link to palestinethinktank.com
She confirms what Phil writes about many Israelis feeling as if the walls are closing in on them and explains it as a kind of national PTSD. It’s not a new thesis -Avrum Burg’s book on the holocaust is in a similar area – what’s interesting is her application of a psychotherapy model to get to a long term resolution. She uses the metaphor which Judy has used here: that of domestic violence with the Palestinians as the battered spouse, Israel as the abuser and the US as the enabler. Two immediate actions proposed: UN peacekeepers into the Occupied Territories to PROTECT the Palestinians from further Israeli abuse at the hands of the IDF/settlers; and an unequivocal international condemnation of Israel’s behaviour – instead of the current strategy of appealing to Israeli reason which is consistently met with a “fuck you” by Israel.
Personally, I don’t feel any solidarity with Israelis. Never have. The whole thing always seemed contrived to me. And why do you have to be kindly when you give your opinion. On one hand they act big and tough, and on the other hand you have to be so careful what you say or you will hurt their feelings.
Phil- It seems to me that you are in fact talking to those Jews who already agree with you (mostly in the Diaspora) and you exhibit few signs of attempting to communicate with those who disagree with you.
Firstly, the word “psychosis”. Maybe after three years in individual therapy, a professional might offer the word gently to his patient with whom he has developed an intense relationship and find some purpose in using the word. (Even then I doubt it.) Otherwise the word only serves the purpose of gaining the approval of those who agree with you and alienating those who disagree with you.
Secondly on the validity of the use of the word: It is difficult to tell where irrational fear based on previous experience begins and rational fear based on the current situation begins. (I don’t think a professional would use the term psychosis for a fear based on previous “recent” experience, but you’re a journalist/blogger and not a mental care professional.) The current situation does contain a rational fear that the Jews will be kicked out of I/P. If Helen Thomas’s statement proves anything besides the unfair limits placed on free speech on people in important places, it proves that the Jews who live in I/P should fear being kicked out of I/P. The constant evocation of the possibility or the inevitability or the innate justice of a one state solution on this blog means that such a solution is not an irrational fear. And a journalist such as Robert Fisk has stated that he does not think it unreasonable to expect that there would be no room for Jews in such a one state. So if this is a reasonable fear, however much previous experience in Europe is irrelevant to this fear (and the copy of Mein Kampf displayed in Amman and photographed by yourself shows that there is some “connection” if not causal, then certainly ideational), to label the reasonable fear as psychosis is misplaced.
But the other question besides your terminology is your place in Jewish society. You feel that Zionism has distilled Jews- with ethnocentric Jews landing in Israel or supporting a Jewish state (two states and no right of return) and others like yourself landing in the aggregate of intermarriage and integration. It is unclear how those who have intermarried and integrated can communicate with those who have chosen marrying-in and ethnic identity. Are you saying, “We both read Kafka, therefore we do have something in common, so you should listen to me.” Are you saying, “I use a Yiddish phrase every now and then, so you should listen to me.” You are saying, “We both respect Schwerner and Goodman, so you should listen to me.” But it seems to me that if you take the need for talking Israeli Jews away from the precipice, it will have to be someone other than yourself who does so, or else you will have to develop a common language and avoid alienating terminology if that is really what you are trying to do. Just saying, “Please listen to me,” will not work.
Israel—too small for a country, too large for a lunatic asylum.
Filth from top to bottom
You will look long and hard to find a decent Jew ANYWHERE who does not regard the enthusiasm unanimously expressed in Israel for the massacre of civilian aid workers as a profound and dangerous psychosis.
It is we Jews of the disapora who are under constant threat from the vermin of Israel. We have absolutely nothing in common with them, share none of their cultural traits and certainly, none of their appalling “values” ..their Nazi mindset that has utterly sickened the world.
To be a Jew of character is to repudiate Israel, root and branch and stand AGAINST the existence of this gangster state, that has the unmitigated gall to attach the name of world Jewry to its grotesque facade. Diaspora Jews are the victim of identity theft. Let us bring the Israeli criminals to justice and reclaim our honor.
“You will look long and hard to find a decent Jew ANYWHERE who does not regard the enthusiasm unanimously expressed in Israel for the massacre of civilian aid workers as a profound and dangerous psychosis.”
I wish that what decentjew says were true. Unfortunately I find that nearly all of those who think of themselves as Jews feel a residual loyalty to the “Jewish state” and are therefore unable to look at it as a settler colony (“gangster state”) with no moral right to exist. That is one reason I maintain that most westerners of Jewish ancestry (except for those with religious convictions) would find it intellectually and spiritually emancipating to cease thinking of themselves as Jews and begin to identify as Americans-without-hyphens, or French, or simply members of the human race.
the only threat to Jews that a book represents is that Jews didn’t write it.
how many copies of virulently anti-Arab screeds are on the shelves in American bookstores?
I find this article interesting in that Philip thinks that by assimilating as much as possible and not offending anyone, regardless of the fact that those who have murdered Jews don’t need a reason, there will be less hatred towards Jews. We Israelis are irrational, fearful, and according to many posters here, worse than Nazis. Not like our reluctant brethren Philip who feels that we should intermarry and subdue our Jewishness and this will make us safe and will bring peace to the Middle East.
When the Iranians bombed the cultural center in Argentina, they didn’t take a poll first to find out if any of the people inside the building were “the good Jews” like Philip.
There were many Jews like Philip in Germany and Poland and other parts of Eastern Europe who were not only totally assimilated, they didn’t even know they were Jewish. They were put on the cattle cars together with the Hasidim.
Going back to 1967 when there was no “occupation” I remember very clearly the mobs in Cairo and Damascus screaming “Slaughter the Jews” Not the Zionists, the Jews.
So, Philip and company, you can continue to delude yourselves that you are somewhat morally superior to Israelis, that you are the “good Jews” who the goyim like and would never hurt, if not for those damn aggressive Israelis that just bring out this inexplicable hatred in them.
We ‘assimilated’ Jews surely WILL join our “goy” brethren and reach for the nearest glass of champagne the next time you and your tefillin-wearing tapeworm pals are attacked, until your vile dung-heap of a nation is finished.
Go to hell.
So called decentjew
Did you consider resurrecting Der Sturmer? You would be a good writer for that kind of newspaper. Perhaps you could write for Press TV or Hizbollah TV, they use the same terminology
Your language is a good reason Israelis should be concerned about anti-semites and Kapos. However, contrary to ghetto jews, we don’t tolerate it any more.
decentjew- Neturei Karta wear tefillin. Do you include them in your hatred?
Why do Israelis chant “Death to the Arabs”? Why do settlers spray the swastika on Palestinian homes? Why do they say “Gas the Arabs”?
what pisses people off about teh joos is the constant baiting, the constant provocations, the constant lies and unfounded accusations, the kangaroo court justice jewish partisans manipulate — ie. the Argentinian case against Iran was rigged by Jewish jurists; if Iran DID do it, it was in retaliation for an even more egregious act of israeli jews against Lebanon, or is only Israel allowed to take vengeance against crimes against innocent people?
The one case that I know of in which members of the international community — Iran, took legal action against Israel and won its case by peaceful, legal means, Israel refused and still refuses to pay the judgment. So much for “only democracy.”
Israel was not only ‘conceived in sin,’ it was conceived TO sin. The founding plan for this bastard child of zionism was to sin and sin and sin again.
“the fact that those who have murdered Jews don’t need a reason”
So you believe that people kill Jews without a reason? But why then would they pick out Jews to kill, rather than killing people randomly?
May I salute you for manning the barricades against the hordes of Neo-Nazi Anti-Semites. Now go suck a kumquat. I absolve you of your responsibility.
We don’t NEED Der Sturmer, so long as Israeli filth like you insist on conforming to the most vicious anti-Semitic stereotypes of the lying, thieving, murderous Jew.
Forget your idiotic, paranoid fixation with the Arabs and the “goys.”
Jews are your greatest enemy.
decentjew,
you’re supposed to say “Zionist” when you mean Jews, didn’t you get the memo?
” lying, thieving, murderous Jew” I like that one, where did you find it, on the Iranian Government Site? Hamas TV?
We don’t NEED Der Sturmer, so long as Israeli filth like you insist on conforming to the most vicious anti-Semitic stereotypes of the lying, thieving, murderous Jew.
Forget your idiotic, paranoid fixation with the Arabs and the “goys.”
Jews are your greatest enemy.
I recently met a young man in Haifa who said he had been born in Israel and moved to Palestine, without changing his residence. He also said that if he ever became convinced that he could not struggle effectively against Zionism he would leave: “I would not stay here as a settler.” I found it significant that, while not denying his ancestry—that would be pointless—he did not identify as a Jew or an Israeli but as a Hebrew-speaking Palestinian.
I was wondering how many other political people in the israeli apaprthied administration were also seeing the same shrink as nutty yahoo, rest his soul, however are the files availible, they may hold a massive understanding in the state of moral degrading phycosis in the political area there. That means he may have to step down due to a scandle in the future regarding the leaks about the manner in which the shrink was keep. anyway it is a real need to know info..for the world to get into how the people are so mentally unstable,
by whatever reason. There need to be some questionaire for the public to hear when voting: 1 should be,” how do stand on murder in any fashion”.
Could there be a mass phycosis of paranoia that has been hinged in the brainwashing of that compensation for land and right of return are easily dealt with with cold hard cash untaxed.
The other is the illegal placement of settlement in which we are to believe are too big to dismantle.
Confront that easy ability to replace a boundry fairly and then construct a wall on the other side of the aparthied side all the way out to the sea, a fisherman’s worf”, no boundries. for inport export.
and don’t kill people and jail & tourture, and there would be a way to relieve the murderous paraoid phycosis which has been inbreed into generations of settlers and occupiers the same for a long time, lets wipe the slate clean and start over…so to say, I do not mean violence I wean without religon. internationalize old city /un troop,
It may be that you are missing a point; what frightens me is not the Hamas, (though if you have had had a qassam burst in your front yard, you might not think it a minor affair) , but that the Bibi/Avigdor axis is finally going to do something so horrible, that even thoughtful and fair people will will hold all Israelis accountable.
At this moment I can argue that all Israelis are responsible for the ill considered actions of the present government exactly to the degree that all Palestinians are responsible for the thoughtless actions of the Hamas.
The result of the actions of both are normally the opposite of what they intended to accomplish, consequently stupid.
Bur given the absolute military and economic superiority of the Israeli side, a convincing argument can be made that Israel attacks, even when it defends, but that the Hamas defends, even when it attacks. Not a well balanced equation perhaps, but in the modern world, an almost inevitable consequence of beating your foe, then kicking him when he is down.
At this moment I can argue that all Israelis are responsible for the ill considered actions of the present government exactly to the degree that all Palestinians are responsible for the thoughtless actions of the Hamas.
the difference being that Israelis are not only not held accountable for their actions, they manage to shift their culpability to Palestinians and punish Palestinians 100-fold for both sets of misdeeds.
No we don’t manage, as your reply so amply demonstrates. Nor should we, if the accusation is accurate.
As for your argument that “all Israelis” are to blame for the actions of their government. It is a stupid position to take and you cannot show any evidence to show it’s accuracy.
If you want to learn about the Israeli left, (the real left, not the sad parody presented by the the Labor Party as it is now constituted), a few minutes on the internet will show you your mistake. If you are not willing to do even that, your condemnation of all Israelis is only ignorant hot air, or worse.
Why did the Israelis elect Netanyahu? Everyone knows it’s because Barak and Tzipi Livni failed to fully satisfy the population’s sick bloodlust, during the Cast Lead massacre.
As repulsive as Israel’s leaders are, the citizenry is worse. They exist to kill and maim innocent people, and assert their domination over the defenseless. It’s impossible to feel anything but loathing for them.
The name of the game is stopping Israel before it starts a nuclear war–a very real and very terrifying possibility. Whatever needs to be done in this regard, ought to be. The welfare of Israelis should be at the very bottom of any list of considerations.
It is clear that all you wish to do is to flame. No only are you not a decent Jew, as your alias would seen to suggest, but more importantly, you are evidently pretty much a failure as a human
being as well.
Will not respond again.
Fuck off and jump in the sewer.
Take the rest of your vile compatriots with you.
Let’s see some real civil resistance and not crocodile tears and hand wringing.
Thanks Alec. I do most of my posting from my Android Phone, that provides a whole new host of irritating quirks. But ” I’m an air conditioned Gypsy,whatch the police and the taxman miss me, I’m mobile” Lol!
Case in point: I was replying to your upthread text editing suggestions and it posted here, and added an H to watch. Anywhoo.
exactly, your false paradigm aside
it’s Israelis who regularly carry out State terrorism on a large scale against the ENTIRE Palestinian population.
it’s normal to do that, whereas ‘Jewish identity’ is dangerous territory for discourse and nonexistent in the mainstream. Forget doing anything physical about it. Forget holding Israelis accountable for their government.
Love is blind. Whether or not one chooses to marry within one’s ethnic tribe or within one’s ideational or religious tribe seems beside the point, the point being Israel is a recognized sovereign state subject to the same rules as every other recognized sovereign state, that is, according to the rules agreed to by all UN members. To hold otherwise is to concede that any state, being sovereign, can do whatever it wants. Might (both military & economic) makes right. The assumption is that the Nazi and Communist states stepped
over the line; the Nuremberg Trials and the trials of the Japanese leaders following on the heels of WW2 set those lines; the UN & international laws
that also followed together is all the world has developed to get beyond might makes right. The fact that hypocrisy abounds merely goes to the
reality of difficulty of implementation of said laws. The USSR fell of its own internal weight. The USA & Israel are seen by the world today as the two principal problems when it comes to affecting other states by their
military power.