Citing ‘national security,’ coalition of realists and liberals (Freeman-Zogby-Beinart) call on Obama to condemn settlements

This is big. This is the new coalition to push the neocon Project for the New American Century into the dustbin of history. Fifty public figures, including commentators and former officials, have called on Obama to stand with the majority in the U.N. Security Council against the Israeli settlement project in Israel as a matter of U.S. national security. Among the signatories, Amjad Atallah, Chas Freeman, James Zogby, Andrew Sullivan, Peter Beinart. Many realists, Nitze, Wilkerson. Paul Pillar, Bill Quandt, Mike Desch, Carla Hills former trade rep Note the absence of Israel lobbyists. I.e., they can’t even condemn the settlement project. Jeffrey Goldberg was surely asked. Or they don’t like references to American lives on the line in the Middle East. Notice how few Jews are on the list, and what pressure people like Beinart and Rabbi Beerman of L.A. are exposing themselves to within the monolithic American Jewish leadership. Excerpts:

The time has come for a clear signal from the United States to the parties and to the broader international community that the United States can and will approach the conflict with the objectivity, consistency and respect for international law required if it is to play a constructive role in the conflict’s resolution…

As you made clear, Mr. President, in your landmark Cairo speech of June 2009, “The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. This construction violates previous agreements and undermines efforts to achieve peace. It is time for these settlements to stop.”

There are today over half a million Israelis living beyond the 1967 line – greatly complicating the realization of a two-state solution. That number has grown dramatically in the years since the peace process was launched: in 1993 there were 111,000 settlers in the West Bank alone; in 2010 that number surpassed 300,000.

The settlements are clearly illegal according to article 49 of the Fourth Geneva convention – a status recognized in an opinion issued by the State Department’s legal advisor on April 28, 1978, a position which has never since been revised.

That official US legal opinion describes the settlements as being “inconsistent with international law”. US policy across nine administrations has been to oppose the settlements, with the focus for the last two decades being on the incompatibility of settlement construction with efforts to advance peace. The Quartet Roadmap, for instance, issued during the Bush presidency in 2003, called on Israel to “freeze all settlement activity, including natural growth.”…

At this critical juncture, how the US chooses to cast its vote on a settlements resolution will have a defining effect on our standing as a broker in Middle East peace. But the impact of this vote will be felt well beyond the arena of Israeli-Palestinian deal-making – our seriousness as a guarantor of international law and international legitimacy is at stake.

America’s credibility in a crucial region of the world is on the line – a region in which hundreds of thousands of our troops are deployed and where we face the greatest threats and challenges to our security. This vote is an American national security interest vote par excellence. We urge you to do the right thing.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.
Posted in Israel/Palestine

{ 65 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. Jethro says:

    Once again, how can this be “big” if we all know that Jewish money for Obama’s re-election will dry up if Obama were to “do the right thing?”

    • soooooo what? take a principled stand and the people will follow. let Jewish money got to repubs. if Obama stands on a sound American-values principle, HE WILL GET THE VOTE.

      DKos is fretting anyway that “white democrats” are abandoning the Dem party — I suspect that’s not code for “Evangelicals.”

      maybe it’s because I WANT to feel it — I think we’re nearing ‘tipping point’ territory: very soon, it may become extremely unpopular for politicians to appear at AIPAC conferences.

      If Obama can do some jujitsu with this, make a statement/campaign talking point/bumper sticker that REAL patriots don’t take money from settlement supporters, a lot of people will jump on the bandwagon. The more money settler supporters give to GOP, the more people will flock to the other side.

      one can hope.

      • annie says:

        DKos is fretting anyway that “white democrats” are abandoning the Dem party — I suspect that’s not code for “Evangelicals.”

        that cracks me up, i’ll have to go check it out. yes, they are all flooding to palin/not.

      • Jethro says:

        Maybe Obama will get the vote, but congressional dems will not. They will get a primary challenge. To avoid that, they will knee-cap Obama at every opportunity to prove their pro-Israel bona fides. Remember when they told Obama to lay off Netanyahu while Netanyahu was crapping all over Biden and Obama by announcing settlements every two seconds? Obama will not be able to get anything done in congress. So he will not do the right thing. You are dreaming. It’s a nice dream, but a dream nonetheless.

  2. Potsherd2 says:

    I’d like to see O respond to this, watch him squirm and waffle and lie.

  3. seafoid says:

    Nice try but must do better.
    There are half a million settlers, not 300,000. East Jerusalem is Palestinian. It isn’t in Israel and it has 200,000 Jews living in Jew-only colonies on Palestinian land that was never paid for .

    • Kathleen says:

      And the Illegal expansion of illegal settlements in the West Bank and the building of illegal Israeli housing in E Jerusalem has never stopped. Never stopped

  4. pabelmont says:

    This is what I’ve been hoping for since I wrote Obama-should-end-illegalities-of-Israeli-occupation-before-pressing-for-an-Israeli-Palestinian-peace in 2008.

    First things first. Get rid of all the settlers and DESTROY the settlement buildingsd, all of ‘em, and the wall. AND THEN talk peace. (Maybe talk peace while a one-year time-line for removal/destruction is still running, give Israel a chance to save some settlements if the Palestinians agree.)

    • Ian says:

      DO not destroy the settlements – make everyone leave them in perfect condition and then there is somewhere for those who have the ‘right of return’ to move to. This will save the International community billions and provide a potential solution to one of the issues between the two communities.

      • yonira says:

        That worked great with the farms and green houses in Gaza after the disengagement didn’t it Ian.

        link to jpost.com

        • Ian says:

          Using an extreme Zionist article does not represent the facts. The settlements were razed by the Israeli army:

          link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org

          The easiest way to ensure settlements in the West Bank are transferred intact is to have the UN inspect them before handover. Any damage from a move in condition to be deducted X2 from US aid to Israel.

        • tree says:

          OK, yonira, I shouldn’t be surprised at the total lack of quality and truthfulness of your links. But, first off, Earl Cox is a rabid Christian Zionist who was writing an opinion piece in the “Entertainment” section of the JPost. It certainly is NOT a news report. Secondly, although his spin piece was written last year, it contains numerous falsehoods that a quick Google search could easily refute. You’ve got to be one of the most gullible people here, as long as what is being said plays into your prejudices.

          Here’s the reporting from the NYTimes, Boston Globe and MSNBC in 2005:

          In July 2005, prior to the disengagement:
          Israeli Settlers Demolish Greenhouses and Gaza Jobs

          In September 2005, immediately after the disengagment:

          Looters strip Gaza Greenhouses
          {Note: This is the AP story that Cox claims said,”“more then 3,000 greenhouses costing the World Bank and private donors approximately $14 million were completely stripped and totally destroyed.” However it says no such thing. Cox lied.}

          In October 2005, one month later:

          Greenhouse project endangered in Gaza

          And another month later, in November 2005:
          Gaza greenhouses bear fruit once again

          So, to wrap up the truth behind some of Cox’s most egregious lies, the settlers houses were destroyed by Israeli soldiers as part of Israel’s disengagement, not by the Palestinians. Some settlers dismantled some of the greenhouses and equipment prior to the disengagement. And, according to news reports, about ten percent of formerly Israeli greenhouses were destroyed by Palestinian looters immediately after the disengagement, mostly stealing plastic irrigation pipe, plastic sheeting, and water pumps . That destruction was repaired within a month or so by the Palestinians and the greenhouses were up and running within 2 months. I could go into several other lies that Cox uttered, but what’s the point. Its already been shown that he is a liar and a bigot.

          At least do a preliminary fact check before posting “Entertainment” pieces from the Jerusalem Post. Your track record on these kind things is appallingly bad.

          The major problem the Palestinian farmers have in Gaza is not a lack of greenhouses; its Israel’s blockade which prevents them from transporting their produce to market.

        • Yonira has frequently relied on far right, settler sites such as this one before. His other favorite is Arutz Sheva, the mouth piece of the settler movement.

        • Shingo says:

          Wow Tree,

          You’re on a roll. Great stuff.

        • yonira -
          Just a cursory glance at that “article” is enough for any reasonable person to come to the conclusion that the author (whoever he is, I really don’t care) is a racist, cheap-microphone-holding misinformed trash talker of the same caliber as the bloated bigot demagogue Hagee. One can spot low quality discourse like that miles away, it just jumps out at you.
          Either :
          1) You don’t see it, and it’s pretty much hopeless
          2) You do see it, and it’s just total dishonesty
          Which one is it? One would think that by now you would start questioning the motives of these kinds of pawn shop rabble-rousers after being constantly confronted with better articles and documents refuting their claims. But no. On and on and on it goes.

          I’ll just link to an Arthur Silber post which points to my sentiments, so I don’t have to voice them here :
          link to bit.ly

          Good day !

        • yonira says:

          You are a liar Atheist, i have never posted a link for Arutz Sheva.

          When in doubt blame the source. You guys will find an excuse for absolutely everything. No wonder ZIP gets done from your BDS movement, no wonder ZIP gets done for the Palestinians. You guys live on deflect and excuses.

          Whatever, have fun revising history, spending all of your waking time ‘refuting’ the Zionists, why the people you are fighting for continue to live in a shit hole occupied land.

      • Shingo says:

        Excellent suggestion Ian. Homes ready to be occupied by Palestinians.

        The wall should definitely be destroyed though.

  5. Kathleen says:

    Did you all ready have this up when I linked it? Sorry if you did

  6. Kathleen says:

    I think this is big or is just another example of too little too late

    • seafoid says:

      Israel needs either a military defeat or a financial crisis such as a forced bond default to get any reversal of YESHA. Israel has poured the last 44 years into this project. Erez Israel has been around for longer than Israel. Erez Israel is the Israeli reality.

      What Israeli leader is going to turn around and tell his or her people that what Israel has poured everything into for the last 44 years is actually a lie? This is why YESHA can only get bigger. The Israelis have invested too much by now for the project to fail. Israel needs a shock equivalent to De Gaulle giving up on Algeria. The whole society and economy are built around YESHA. Who is going to tell the parents of all the dead soldiers that their kids died for nothing ? Where would 500,000 returning Jews be housed ? Who would pay for it ? where are all the young Haredi couples going to be able to buy a home ?

      Ben gurion said “it is not about what the goys say. It is about what the Jews do”. And that is the delusion they built YESHA on. If we build it they will come. And they didn’t turn up, all of those projected Jews. They stayed in the US. The Palestinians didn’t disappear. They stayed. And now it is payback time. Israel will do anything to avoid the reckoning. I wouldn’t rule out a policy of state run murder.

      • Sumud says:

        I wouldn’t rule out a policy of state run murder.

        Coming right up – the groundwork is being laid for this right now. We’ve all seen the photos of the vicious settler graffiti, especially from around Hebron (“gas the arabs” etc), now Richard Silverstein reports on an article by Orthodox Rabbis in a settler mag:

        ‘ISRAEL’S ORTHODOX RABBIS: PALESTINIANS TO THE OVENS!’
        link to richardsilverstein.com

        You can think of the siege of Gaza (the Warsaw Ghetto) and the Gaza Massacre as a trial balloon for genocide. 90% of Israel’s population were happy as larry about the slaughter in Gaza two years ago, right? The question is, how insane will Israel get to be before saner forces prevail?

  7. annie says:

    yep, this is a biggie

    • Kathleen says:

      Annie I am confused I went through here earlier and did not see this piece up and posted it under this thread
      “‘Goldstone’ becomes a punchline on the Israeli Supreme Court

      by Lizzy Ratner on January 18, 2011 · 10 comments”

      then came back up and it was gone and Phillip had this piece up. Do you folks just slide things in not in sequence of date or did I miss this? Was this here earlier?

      • annie says:

        kathleen, i’m not sure why you’re asking me this. just send phil an email and ask him. i don’t know when he put this up but the timing on the first comment is 11:22 am so it was before that. it is his and adam’s blog and i don’t know how they determine when to post things.

        i’ve missed reading whole threads many times simply by not scrolling or thinking nothing new has appeared because they do not always appear in order, like right now adam’s post about the trip is headlined and might be for awhile, why not it is his blog?

        so write phil if you have questions and if there’s anything you want to say about this coalition say it on this thread i would imagine.

        ;)

        • Kathleen says:

          Thanks will do that. Do not like to link to articles all ready up so I was confused. Had all ready read through here this morning and did not see this up before I linked to the above piece on another thread

        • bijou says:

          Sometimes the insert posts lower down, leaving the top one featured for a while. It threw me at first, too. Now I scroll down through the first 5-10 posts just to make sure I haven’t missed anything new. It’s a bit annoying sometimes but as Annie said, it’s their blog… :)

  8. seafoid says:

    So who is going to get the settlers out of the West Bank? Are they going to just give up? Are the nutcases in Hebron just going to ring up removals companies ?

    • Kathleen says:

      I really think this is more of the too little too late efforts. I think the area is headed where Mearsheimer has pointed to.
      Mearsheimer: There will be no two-state solution, only a greater Israel, and Palestinians will need the int’l community in the coming fight against apartheid
      link to mondoweiss.net

      • seafoid says:

        I agree, Kathleen. Israel wins this time but at the ultimate price of the disappearance of the Jewish State.

      • pjdude says:

        um I believe these racist thugs need removing but I want it to be part of a one state solution. fundmentally to get a society that works you need basic enforcement of such things like basic property rights( something that people like witty and EEE don’t believe the palestinians have)

  9. J Street e-mail blasted this letter this morning:

    1. I commented earlier that demanding that Ros-Lehtinen return the cash is cheap virtue for J Street, a no brainer for Ros — she’s got the position that the contributions paid for, duh , and a boon for Moskowitz — he can recycle the cash and buy another congressman.

    2. Think of the domino effect if a measure such as that proposed by this coalition IS put in place: people like Ros Lehtinen who are supported by settlement-enablers would be forced to surrender their seats, no?

    *
    Return Settlement Funder Campaign Cash‏
    Tell Ileana Ros-Lehtinen to give back contributions from Irving Moskowitz
    Psychopathic god-

    The new Chairwoman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee Ileana Ros-Lehtinen seems to see nothing wrong with taking large campaign contributions from the most renowned funder of housing for Israeli settlers in East Jerusalem’s Arab neighborhoods. [1]

    This notorious settlement funder — Irving Moskowitz — actively works to derail the chances for a two-state solution by funding Jewish settler housing in the middle of Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem. Days ago, Moskowitz’s handiwork made headlines with a demolition of the Shepherd’s Hotel in the East Jerusalem hot spot of Sheikh Jarrah. [2]

    The whole world – including the United States under many Presidents of both parties – has condemned and opposed his projects as obstacles to a two-state solution. [3]

    But the new Chairwoman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, is taking his money to support her campaigns? Give us a break.

    With the two-state solution hanging by a thread, what a terrible signal it sends for an American political leader to be so cozy with a far-right political funder whose actions undermine the foreign policy of the United States and makes a two-state solution harder to achieve.

    Click here to call on Ileana Ros-Lehtinen to return Moskowitz’s campaign contributions.

    We’ll deliver your petition and thousands more to Ros-Lehtinen’s office – and take other steps to let her constituents know how outraged pro-Israel, pro-peace Americans are with the company she keeps.

    Like a kid playing with a book of matches, Moskowitz and the settlers he supports are putting not just the Middle East peace process but the safety and security of Israel and the region at risk.

    We need to do our part to help stop provocative East Jerusalem construction.

    Click here to call on Ileana Ros-Lehtinen to return Irving Moskowitz’s campaign contributions.

    In the face of a new Congress led by people who seem to have no interest in achieving a two state solution, J Street is going on the offense. We’re going to expose and push back against actions that undermine the long-term security of Israel and the fundamental interests of the United States.

    We want Congress to know that they can expect to hear loudly and clearly from the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement that there is only one way forward that meets the United States’ interests, secures Israel’s future, and creates a viable and independent state of Palestine.

    – Hadar

    Hadar Susskind
    V.P., Policy and Strategy
    J Street
    January 18, 2011

    [1] “Shepherd Hotel developer top donor to GOP foreign affairs chair Ros-Lehtinen,” by Laura Rozen. Politico, January 10, 2011.

    [2] “PMO: Sheikh Jarrah demolition ‘in accordance with law,” by JPost.com Staff, Melanie Lidman and Khaled Abu. Jerusalem Post, January 11, 2011.

    [3] “Moskowitz, Irving,” Right Web, May 27, 2007.

  10. If Paul Nitze is to have credibility, he’s going to have to have a serious talk with Michael Mandelbaum, professor of Foreign Affairs at SAIS. Mandelbaum is a neocon’s neocon; he dismisses the will of the people in Arab states as just so much noise; the leaders that US props up in its myriad client states are the people who matter.

    When Mandelbaum conceded that, Yes, invading Iraq was sorta kinda technically consensus opinion suggests– a violation of international law, Jacqueline Grapin spanked him for it, but with kid gloves and lady-like pats. link to c-spanvideo.org

  11. Citizen says:

    Who will Obama listen to? He gives Dennis Ross ever more power
    Israel’s melitz yosher, Dennis Ross, directs the USA’s policy for Iran and Israel. HIs formula is simple: Crush Iran and give Israel half of Uncle Sam’s total tax income and a lock on his UNSC veto. And, forget that Uncle Sam’s envoy; that Arab is OK to broker Irish matters, but these are Jewish matters. link to forward.com

    PNAC said everything; the key factor in Uncle Sam going to war was the neocons, most of whom are Jewish Zionists; and they are united with democratic PEPs on this issue; hence the drumroll to bomb Iran, or support Israel doing that. Big oil didn’t have a vote, and still does not have one. And if you actually read the 9/11 Commission Report, the Zionists also brought us that blowback; and they are the reason Obama doesn’t even listen to Petraeus or Beiden regarding Israel’s policies as a giant roadblock to peace in the Middle East that risks US lives in the area. When will “make nice with the Jewish community” be seen as counter-productive to what’s good for the US and world community as a whole? Little jews have suffered enormously in the past from the power of big jews claiming they speak for all jews. This is the time for little American jews and little American gentiles to speak up
    in behalf of the best American values, the secret of its (now declining) power in the modern world.

  12. Kathleen says:

    David “axis of evil” Frum’s response to this letter. Well Carlucci’s response clearly Frums too
    link to frumforum.com

    • Shingo says:

      Excellent link Kathleen,

      I particularly like this line from one of the comments:

      The problem with your position here, David Frum, is that while you obviously do not personally endorse the axis-of-schmendricks comprised of Lieberman, Netanyahu, and their supporters, you resolutely refuse to do anything about it

      ………..

      But clearly something has to be done, and all I see from the Israeli political process and from Israel supporters in the United States is either blind support or paralysis.

      I couldn’t think of a better way to sum up Witty’s idea of taking action paralysis

  13. Kathleen says:

    Not much action at Huffington Post having to do with this letter
    link to huffingtonpost.com

    Here we go when Israel is pressed they strike
    link to liquida.com
    Home > News > Middle east > Focus: United Nations – Israel
    Israeli diplomats boycott U.N. Security Council to protest Tel Aviv’s treatment of its diplomats
    Israeli diplomats boycott U.N. Security Council to protest Tel Aviv’s treatment of its diplomats

    Just as the Palestinians U.N. ambassador, Ryad Mansour, has begun pressing his colleagues at the U.N. to adopt a resolution criticizing Israel’s construction of settlements, Israel’s U.N. diplomats have decided to go on strike. The Israeli mission to the U.N. announced this morning that they would not attend a scheduled Security Council meeting today on the Middle

    • Kathleen says:

      Yep wondering why there is not much action on the post over at Huff Po about this letter. Not on the front page. Hard to find. Oh Arianna stop being a chicken shit. Put this on your front page instead of the US pressuring China about human rights. Now how absurd is that? The US responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths and injuries and millions displaced in Iraq. Gitmo, Abu Gharib, thousands of innocent people dead due to our drones..and the U.S. has the balls to lecture China on human rights.

      The whole world is laughing with good reason

  14. Its not clear if the proposal is relative to Israeli/Palestinian sovereignty, or to the settlers’ residence.

    If related to the settlers’ residence, then their removal would be an act of ethnic cleansing stated in the name of “international law”. It would be unclear which would be THE violation of international law.

    If related to sovereignty of the land in question, whether that land is Israel or that land is Palestine, I would urge the president to support the clarification of borders, as he has done, and urgently.

    The sands are shifting, by the deliberate and responsible institution building efforts of Fayyad and Abbas, and he will be forced to take some position on borders shortly, beyond solely urging negotiation.

    The US should communicate its intent to recognize Palestine at some reasonable time, putting the ball in Netanyahu’s court. It likely will cause some internal fighting within Israel, and if they determine to reject US positions, they will be forced to “go it alone”, which I hope that they rationally decide not to do.

    The change in the Israeli government, leaving Netanyahu as ONLY a right-wing government, is currently a step backward relative to the goal of forcing Netanyahu to stop settlement construction and negotiate, but may be tidal if the liberal left can restore some basis of leadership in Israel.

    • pjdude says:

      Did you really just call the enforcement of basic property law ethnic cleansing? just WTF WTF

      removing people from property they do not own and they have no right to use is not ethnic cleansing.

      Oh that right they got deeds from their thug state so you think that nets them legal ownership.

      simple question just yes or no. Is it legal to remove squatters?

    • Shingo says:

      If related to the settlers’ residence, then their removal would be an act of ethnic cleansing stated in the name of “international law”.

      Absolutely false.

      Ethnic cleansing as stated in international law, is the removal of one group of people from a territory by another. The settlers all knowingly settled on stolen land and thus cannot claim any such status.

    • eljay says:

      >> As you made clear, Mr. President, in your landmark Cairo speech of June 2009, “The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. … ”

      Obama “made clear” a lot of things, foremost being the fact that he’s a fraud.

      >> RW: If related to the settlers’ residence, then their removal would be an act of ethnic cleansing …

      No it wouldn’t. To use eee’s “common sense” example, it would be just like expropriation for a highway, except this highway would be called the “Highway of Accountability”.

      The forced departure of the settlers would be “negotiated” and if the settlers chose not to leave, the consequence of their failure to “negotiate” would be “necessary”.

      Years from now, forced departures would be “currently not necessary” and people would be able to see that what happened in the past was for “a good in the world” and that would make everything alright.

      Or does this kind of bullsh*t logic only work when it favours Jews?

  15. Theo says:

    In my humble opinion the only solution to the problems in Palestina are as follows:

    1. All settlers must leave the in 1967 occupied areas, all housing built there with US taxpayers money will be turned over the palestinians authorities and used by the returning refugees.
    2. Israel will release the hundreds of millions dollars it confiscated from the palestinians.
    3. All immigrants to Israel since 1967 must leave the country and move back to their original lands. A great part of them are not even jews, but are used as numbers to fill the roles of “jews”.
    4. Palestenian refugees return and occupy their properties.
    5. The state of Israel will stop to exists, it will be one land called Palestina where everyone will have the same rights regardless of religion.
    6. Jerusalem will be a free city within Palestina, governed by an elected senate made up of three persons of each major religions.
    7. Separation of state and church, democratic rules and elections. Rabbies, Mullahs and Priests go back to their work of telling fairytales.
    8. Trial of all zionist war criminals.
    9. Jews and arabs lived peacefully together for 2,000 years until the zionist came. Return to Palestina all jews who do not have criminal deeds to pay for and are ready to become citizens of a free Palestina.

    Naive? Perhaps, however it is the only solution that will work. Even a two state solution will not work as arabs will want their freedom sooner or later. Keep an eye on Tunisia and it is just the first awakening of the arab masses. Zionists, start dreading the day when you must answer for your criminal deeds.

  16. MHughes976 says:

    I would think it important that there should be no no-go areas for Jewish people in a new Palestine, so that it might even be desirable that some of those who arrived in the West Bank initially as settlers should remain as citizens. The new Palestine would be a new thing, not bound by the laws of the old Palestine or of the former Israel, and it’s purpose would be to organise everything for the maximum future benefit of all concerned. There have been terrible crimes but a certain degree of amnesty and oblivion might be necessary as the price of final settlement.

  17. eljay says:

    >> … it is the only solution that will work.

    I think it’s far too radical to work. My modest take would be more along these lines:

    1. Palestinian and Israeli states – democratic, secular and egalitarian – established along 1967 borders. Individuals (excepting identified migrant workers, etc.) within the borders of either state become full citizens of that state, with full associated rights and obligations.

    2. Palestine assumes full control of its borders, and land-, sea- and air-space. A period of transition is implemented, over the course of which a Palestinian military force is raised, equipped, trained and armed for purposes of self-defence.

    3. Palestinians RoR to Israel proper limited to original refugees and one generation of descendants. (So, if a family fled with children, the children’s children would be included in the RoR.) RoR includes an option to accept FMV compensation in lieu.

    4. Former Israeli settlements on or near the mutual border may revert to Israeli control pursuant to a fair and equitable negotiated “land swap”. All settlements built prior to 1993 Oslo Accords remain intact. All settlements built after 1993 subject to review. While most post-1993 settlement should remain untouched, contentious ones may be partially or fully dismantlement. In case of a dismantlement:
    - Palestine to cover the costs (including FMV compensation for property) of relocating any formerly-Israeli civilians (i.e., Israeli settlers) to elsewhere in Palestine.
    - Israel to cover the similar costs of relocating any formerly-Israeli civilians to somewhere in Israel.

    5. Review of allocation of all natural resources to be conducted by an independent body (i.e., not the U.S.), which will issue a binding decision.

    6. Perpetrators of grievous crimes against humanity (on both sides) to be prosecuted, presently or posthumously. Criminals must be held accountable. (And, no, “Remember[ing] the Holocaust!” does not excuse criminal behaviour.)

    Et cetera.

  18. yourstruly says:

    as liberation day approaches, the demands of the palestinian people will be what matters, not the claims of the settlers and their U.S. apologists, whose primary concern is for the survival of the settler-entity. So turn and squirm though these apoloigists may, there’s no mistaking it, the settler-entity (not its people) is going down, compliments of the palestinian people, and the international justice in palestine movement. Isn’t that what happens when the old order has to make way for the new – as in south africa yesterday and in tunisia today?

  19. Theo says:

    MHughes976

    Doing a patchwork of changes will take a century, it is more efficient to go back to square 1. and do it with military precision. This way it can be selected who is desirable to stay and who must go!!
    A great part of the settlers are fanatic zionists who would like to drive the arabs into the sea. They must go and never come back. ALL settlers must leave and those who are ready to live under an arab rule, as we all know that the majority always will be arab, can come back to build a new Palestine. This is the only way to screen all settlers.
    I have visited the Synagoge on the island of Djerba in Tunisia a year after it was bombed by terrorists and found arabs and jews live there in peace since over a thousand years. The same was true in the arab kingdoms in Spain, Marocco, etc. It is not the arabs or the jews, but the zionists, who cause the problems.

    As last, but not least, there is no such thing as a jewish nation, 90% of american and european jews are converted khasars or other nationalities, therefore noone has the right to emigrate to the Holly Land calling themselves decendents of David or Abraham.
    Decent jews will be welcome, however the zionists can start looking for another place to cause trouble. After all, all nations have the right to decide who can immigrate to their land and who is undesirable.

    • yonira says:

      Theo,

      90% huh? got a link for that?

      So what are you going to do with your ‘unwanted’ Jews? the ones you don’t consider decent? I believe Khazaria is now a defunct land, so I don’t believe they can go there, where would you recommend they go?

  20. Theo says:

    eljay

    With your suggestion we go back to 1967 with exactly the same problems!
    You sanctify landgrab, after all the jews were only 33% of the population of Israel, yet they decided to form a jewish state on 100% of the land. Most illegal to form your state on stolen land.
    Why should the arabs accept that when they know they are in a majority as soon as the refugees return, according to your plan?
    If you have cancer you must do a total surgery, otherwise the cancer comes back. Zionism must be eliminated from Palestina otherwise we will have other wars after wars until the arabs find a leader who unites them and cause a second Holocaust. It is very wise to know when you are loosing a game or war.

  21. eljay says:

    >> eljay
    >> With your suggestion we go back to 1967 with exactly the same problems!

    You suggested the expulsion of all Israeli settlers from occupied lands (“1967 occupied areas”), the expulsion of all immigrants since 1967, and the implementation of a single-state solution. That’s not even remotely close to what I suggested.

    >> You sanctify landgrab …

    No, I don’t. I believe land theft and ethnic cleansing to be highly illegal and immoral. (I’m not some Zio-supremacist who justifies it as “necessary” in the past, or coldly points out that it is “currently not necessary”.)

    At the same time, I recognize that a state exists which would be next to impossible to dismantle without warfare, death and destruction on a massive scale. I recognize that most of the talk from Palestinians two-staters regards the ’67 borders as the legitimate borders for an autonomous state. And I recognize that Israel must bear the brunt of the financial burden when it comes to RoR (or FMV compensation in lieu of) and any Palestinians (former Israelis) wishing to leave the new Palestinian state.

    >> If you have cancer you must do a total surgery, otherwise the cancer comes back. Zionism must be eliminated from Palestina otherwise we will have other wars after wars until the arabs find a leader who unites them and cause a second Holocaust.

    Zio-supremacism must be eliminated from Israel, yes, so that Israel can become a democratic, egalitarian, secular society living at peace and in mutual harmony with its neighbours. I don’t see any need for resistance to on-going Zio-supremacism to turn into a “second Holocaust”.

    • pjdude says:

      your taking the line of thought that they made it really hard and costly to truly get justice so we shouldn’t try. Its a bs cop out solution that rewards criminals and criminal behavior

      • yonira says:

        you are a dreamer pjdude, who is this “we” anyways?

        • pjdude says:

          Not so much a dreamer as a fighter. I’m not going to give upo on jsutice no matter how much people like you try to prevent it. the longer you prevent so people will go its cruel the crueler I say we will need to be.

          We being the people that want justice and to fix the problems in palestine(I try not to use the term Israel because as a name for the land it is the most ahistorical)

      • eljay says:

        >> your taking the line of thought that they made it really hard and costly to truly get justice so we shouldn’t try.

        My line of thought is – and has consistently been – that Palestinians deserve justice. My post of January 20, 2011 at 10:59 am is a suggestion of what that justice could/should look like. You disagree with my suggestion – that’s fine with me.

        • pjdude says:

          yes you ask for justice but when where you go that this is what justice is because getting you your full rights is to hard. I’m sorry but as justice it feels like a cop out to Israel rather than a true solution. from my point of view it is giving in to Israel. I mean the more people keep pushing those ideas the more its going to encourage Israel to prevent an just solution from happening. I still feel the only way to get them to the table is to make that the way they gain more.

  22. Theo says:

    eljay

    If you suggest an Israel with 1967 borders and a few extra correction to include jewish settlements on occupied land, then you sanctify landgrab!!
    Both are against international laws, Israel was approved only in the 1948 borders.

    As far as a state being there…… states come and go, there was once a Sovjetunion, however it is gone. So is Tibet, etc. In a few years who would ever miss Israel?

    • pjdude says:

      no countries recognized according to the 48 borders technically it is occupied palestinian land as it wasn’t legally annexed

      • yonira says:

        LOL,

        are you sure no countries recognized Israel according to their ’48 borders?

        How exactly did they get into the UN?

        • pjdude says:

          sorry forgot the comma after no what I mean was

          No, countries recognized ISrael according to the 48 borders even though technically the land is not ISraeli owned land but Israel controlled land via occupation because they did not legally annex it.

          I sometimes have problems getting what’s in my head written down properly

          actually their status as a UN member is currently in doubt as when they entered it ws under the condition they accept palestinian rights which you guys well haven’t

  23. eljay says:

    >> If you suggest an Israel with 1967 borders and a few extra correction to include jewish settlements on occupied land, then you sanctify landgrab!!

    Then so do Palestinians who approve of a two-state solution based on 1967 borders. If they’re okay with this “sancification of landgrab”, then so am I. But that “landgrab” comes at a price (RoR and/or FMV compensation in lieu) to Israel, so it’s not for free.

    >> As far as a state being there…… states come and go, there was once a Sovjetunion, however it is gone.

    The Union is gone, but the separate states remain. Greater Israel must go, but the separate states of Israel and Palestine should remain. Good example, thanks.

    • pjdude says:

      why should ISrael remain.

      No one has yet offered me a valid reason why Israel existence should be accepted.

      • You’re joking right?

        6 million people that live there and determine to be governed as Israel.

        • annie says:

          richard, the confederacy had a population of almost 6 million people who determined to be governed as a country too. buy they also determined to be governing millions of other people at the same time, w/no rights.

          sound familiar.

        • pjdude says:

          You’re joking right

          No I am not. and considering the insane garbage you say in defense of thieves do you really want to pull the incredulous card?

          6 million people that live there and determine to be governed as Israel.

          I fail to see how a mere want is a valid reason. 6 million squatters( and no the palestinians living on the land were not squatters.) wants pertaining to stolen property are a valid reason

          and in general how is awant a valid reason. hell the palestinians just wanted to be left alone peacefully in palestine but you and yours denied them that and declared it a good thing.

          again some give me a valid(ie a moral and legal argument that is logical consistent and not based on the premise that it only applies for jews and Israel ie it can’t be turned araound to support palestine actual real right instead of ISrael’s fake ones) reason why Israel should continue to exist/ its existence accepted

          as a side note to witty and all the people that call palestinians squatters and claim ISraelis aren’t

          Squatting consists of occupying an abandoned or unoccupied space or building, usually residential that the squatter does not own, rent or otherwise have permission to use.

          the definition not that it matters they will still use it