Rosen: A state created and maintained by ethnic cleansing, only seeing Arabs as shadows, cannot survive

on 49 Comments

Why do we stand by Nir Rosen? Because he’s so smart, that’s why, and he lays it on the line, and sees stuff clearly. This is amazing, it reminds me of the woods of Dunsinane speech from Macbeth, when he’s told himself he can never be overthrown but now the shadows themselves move against him. I’m grabbing a lot of his post, from tumblr, “What this means for Israel and Iran.” Oh my god, when a mind is free, what it can do! Rosen:

There will be new political and military elites rising up and they will not necessarily be the ones with long standing ties to the Israelis, the Americans, the Saudis. And if you have a more independent and Arab nationalist Egypt it will limit the Saudi ability to meddle in the region. This is good because Saudi money thwarts progress, democracy, development. A nationalist Egypt (as opposed to one that collaborates with Israel and America) means that other Arab countries will have to follow or at least be less collaborationist. It will mean that Jordan will not necessarily accommodate Israel or the Palestinian Authority as much (the Jordanians and senior Fatah leadership dont trust each other much anyway). So Israel is losing its regional partners. And do not think for a second that the revolutions in Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Libya, and throughout the region are purely economic. They are also deeply political. No new regime that is based on popular will is going to be friendly to Israel. Everybody hates Israel. Just look at whats been happening to Turkey since it became more of a genuine democracy. And listen to what Egyptian demonstrators were chanting about Israel (hint- they want to liberate Palestine).

Of course the Israeli elites dont know this. There is nobody in Israel who understands whats happening. When it comes to studying the contemporary Arab world, Israelis do so only through a security prism, not genuine curiosity or a desire to understand Arab countries and Arab culture as they are, only as they affect Israeli security. Those who study the Arab world in Israeli universities, the media and the military are the same people. They served in Israeli military intelligence in Lebanon, the West Bank or Gaza, they study Arabic in Israeli universities with professors who could never actually conduct field work in the Arab world so they only see shadows and reflections of the Arab world, and they dont view Arabs as people, only as enemies who want to kill them so they need to be controlled, and then they move on to the media as so called experts on Arab affairs, and they get their expertise by watching various Arab news networks or talking to sources in Israeli intelligence, its an echo chamber of security obsessed people.

And now Israeli combat units and the Israeli military in general are gradually falling into the hands of Jewish Taliban. There was a time when it was the secular elites from the kibutz who dominated the combat units and senior levels of the military, but as Israel has changed from a socialist apartheid state to an extreme capitalist apartheid state the only people left willing to fight and die for Zionism will soon be extreme religious Jews. And Israeli society is getting more and more open in its racism against its native Palestinian population (Israeli Jews like to call them Israeli Arabs and pretend that they are not Palestinian too). So now you have an Israeli Jewish society that is increasingly extreme and overt in its hostility to the Palestinian citizens of Israel. Even the Druze of Israel, who were the most collaborationist, are gradually realizing that they will never be Jewish. So its great when they’re in the military and everybody’s a brother but once they try to rent an apartment in a Jewish area and they’re treated like a dirty Arab by Jews who are worried that their daughters will be contaminated by them then even the Druze must realize that they have no place in ZIonism.

It is Israel itself that is hastening its demise. Israeli society is going in one inevitable direction. They will try to expel (transfer is their preferred nomenclature) the Palestinian citizens of Israel. Its integral to the logic of Zionism. You have a state created by ethnic cleansing and maintained by ethnic cleansing (so that they can call themselves a Jewish democracy- cant have too many non-Jews). But now in historic Palestine you have about fifty percent Jews ruling the other fifty percent of non Jews who have different categories (citizens, occupied) but are all inferior in their status and basically without any guaranteed rights. But the non Jews are increasing. What do you do? You have to get rid of some of them. But what will the international community do? You cant just put the Arabs on trains and take them out, can you? Well the international community (which means powerful Western countries) didnt do anything when you flattened half of Lebanon and targeted civilians. They didnt do anything when you flattened half of Gaza and targeted civilians. They didnt do anything when you attacked unarmed and peaceful aid workers trying to help the people of Gaza and you executed them, so they wont do anything when you try to expel your non Jewish citizens except complain that it is unhelpful and not nice. And Israelis know they have to do it soon. They’re losing their friendly dictators one by one. They’re even losing the support of liberal Americans (slowly), including Jews, thanks to Netanyahu and Lieberman. And soon there will be too many non Jews in Israel for them to pretend they are a Jewish democracy. And this is happening when Palestinian citizens of Israel are increasingly angry and awakened. They are not their parents, they want equality, they feel connected to the rest of the Arab world, they love the speeches of Seyid Hassan Nasrallah, they are united with their brothers via al Jazeera. Make no mistake, the third intifada is coming and it will start in northern Palestine (inside what is now called Israel), it may start in Um al Fahm, or Baqa al Gharbiya, some other town, but its coming, sooner than ever thanks to the revolutionary people’s uprisings sweeping the old Middle East and it is Israel that will soon feel the birth pang’s of the new Middle East.

49 Responses

  1. MRW
    February 25, 2011, 10:15 pm

    Of course the Israeli elites dont know this. There is nobody in Israel who understands whats happening.

    Soooo true.

    Phil, why don’t you ask Rosen to write for Mondoweiss? I emailed Steve Clemons a year ago asking him to please use Rosen more, but I’m sure after the Lara thing, Clemons won’t touch him. Clemons is too much of an insider to stick his neck out.

    I enjoy Rosen best when he’s being sarcastic and hittin’ it. Because he can drill right through a dull forehead when he wants to.

    • MRW
      February 25, 2011, 11:01 pm

      Apropos the quote I quoted, read this in today’s Mother Jones.

      Israel’s Glenn Beck:
      Obama’s Secret Plot To Bring 100 Million Muslims to the US
      link to

  2. Miura
    February 25, 2011, 10:44 pm

    Make no mistake, the third intifada is coming and it will start in northern Palestine (inside what is now called Israel), it may start in Um al Fahm, or Baqa al Gharbiya, some other town…

    Here is an account of life in one on these towns:

    In Upper Nazareth
    by Ilan Pappe

    Officially, no Palestinians live in the ‘Jewish’ city of Upper Nazareth. The city’s elegant website appears only in Hebrew and in Russian. When I was there recently, I called a spokesperson to ask about numbers but he wouldn’t give me a straight answer. ‘I am standing in front of a house with “There is no power but in God” written in Quranic Arabic over the door,’ I said. ‘And I know there are two Palestinians on your city council.’ ‘We still do not have enough information about the numbers,’ was the reply.

    In fact, according to the Arab Association for Human Rights, 20 per cent of the city’s population are Palestinians. Most of them moved from the crowded city of old Nazareth at the bottom of the hill and from the villages surrounding it. Some of them had to pay as much as £500,000 for a house, three times the market value. The people selling up are Russian immigrants gravitating towards Tel Aviv. There are no Palestinian schools or kindergartens, so the roads between Nazareth and Upper Nazareth are overcrowded in rush hour. But the non-existent 20 per cent are represented on the council and, Israel being Israel, the two Palestinian councillors are in a weird coalition with the ultra-right-wing party of Avigdor Liberman. The mayor needed their support in order to defeat the Labour Party. They demanded, and received, a promise that an Arab school would be built in Upper Nazareth. The mayor is nonetheless committed to the ‘Judaisation’—i.e. the de-Arabisation—of his city, and Liberman declared in August that stopping the immigration of Arabs into Nazareth, as he calls it, is a national priority.

    The city was built in the 1950s. David Ben-Gurion was outraged by the presence of so many Arabs in the Galilee when he toured the region in 1953, a few days before he retired for a year and half from his premiership. He appointed the director general of the Ministry of Defence, Shimon Peres, to ‘Judaise’ the Galilee using emergency regulations that allowed the army to confiscate land from the Palestinians. Upper Nazareth opened in 1957, and senior army officers were billeted there.

    The area covered by Upper Nazareth has quadrupled since its creation. Each expansion was on land expropriated from Arabs. Its 50,000 inhabitants live in a dynamic urban space that keeps expanding and developing. The 70,000 Palestinians of old Nazareth live in a city half the size that is not allowed to expand by a single square metre; indeed, one of its western hilltops was recently requisitioned for Upper Nazareth.

    The villages around Nazareth were first targeted by Yitzhak Rabin’s 1976 plan of Judaisation, Yehud Ha-Galil. In greater Nazareth the main tactic was to disrupt the natural geographical continuity between Palestinian villages by driving Jewish wedges between them. The Jews came, but the Palestinians did not leave, so a second wave of Judaisation began in 2001, under Peres and Ariel Sharon. This wasn’t very successful either; Jews preferred to live in Tel Aviv.

    The present attempt is motivated by the failure of the previous policies to make the Galilee in general, and Nazareth in particular, Jewish. People and economies move in mysterious ways: well-off Palestinians began buying houses in the citadel that was built to evict them. Benjamin Netanyahu regards this as a grave threat to Israel’s national security. Local politicians are even blunter. ‘If we lose the Jewish majority in the Galilee this is the end of the Jewish state,’ Motti Dotan, a member of the Labour Party, said recently. ‘I would like to imagine a Galilee without Arabs: no thefts, no crimes . . . we will have normal life.’ The racist mood in Israel absolves the government from any inhibitions that may have restricted its actions in the past.

    Now ecologists, industrialists and academics have been drafted in. The Jewish National Fund is behind the initiative, along with the Society for the Protection of Nature in Israel. The aim of diminishing the Palestinian presence in the Galilee is also fully endorsed by the prestigious union of Israeli wine producers, which has adopted a plan prepared by leading academics from the Israel Institute of Technology. Published in 2003, the plan calls for the Jewish ‘takeover’ of the Galilee. ‘It is either them or us,’ it begins. ‘The land problems in the Galilee proved that any territory not taken by Zionist elements is going to be coveted by non-Zionists.’

    The gist of what they propose is to seize strategically important land by force and hold onto it until Jews settle on it. The director general of AMPA, an electrical manufacturer, recently said that his company now not only makes refrigerators but is also actively supporting the ‘Judaisation of the Galilee’ by building new communities in the area for AMPA’s veterans. ‘We are not ashamed to say that our plans have a Zionist element.’

    The Palestinian village of Ayn Mahil, east of Nazareth and adjacent to Upper Nazareth, is now accessible only by one road, and it goes through a Jewish religious neighbourhood in Upper Nazareth: on the Day of Atonement, the people of Ayn Mahil cannot leave or enter their village. They will soon be encircled by a new town called Shacharit (which means ‘dawn’ in Hebrew but is also the name of the first Jewish prayer of the day). Ten thousand ultra-Orthodox Jews will be settled there and the hope is that they will rectify the ‘unfavourable’ demographic balance, as well as cut Ayn Mahil off from the greater Nazareth area. The village’s ancient olive groves have been uprooted in preparation for the building work. A new road network will ensure that other villages are separated from each other and from Nazareth.

    Under emergency powers granted to him as minister of national infrastructure in the 1990s, Sharon ordered the building of a new heavy industrial site, Ziporit, on land expropriated from the Palestinians and close to several villages. Ziporit includes a glass factory and an aluminium works; according to international law, neither can be built near where people live. The closest of the villages is Mashad: since the opening of the site the number of deaths from cancer there has risen by 40 per cent.

  3. yourstruly
    February 25, 2011, 11:03 pm

    is it that the israeli elites don’t know or that they don’t want to know? And even if they did know, would they care? What’s more has any colonial entity ever cared?

  4. bijou
    February 25, 2011, 11:28 pm

    He certainly nails it.

  5. annie
    February 25, 2011, 11:44 pm

    Nir unleashed. awesome

  6. gruseom
    February 25, 2011, 11:46 pm

    Clemons is too much of an insider to stick his neck out

    Clemons is so desperate to show what an insider he is that his blog often reads like self-parody. It was surprising that he stuck his neck out as much as he did organizing that open letter a few weeks ago.

  7. Avi
    February 26, 2011, 12:25 am

    Why do we stand by Nir Rosen? Because he’s so smart, that’s why, and he lays it on the line, and sees stuff clearly.

    Yeah, but what about the beard? ;)

    They are not their parents, they want equality, they feel connected to the rest of the Arab world, they love the speeches of Seyid Hassan Nasrallah, they are united with their brothers via al Jazeera.

    This needs a little elaboration.

    The reason Nasrallah has gained popularity can be directly attributed to several factors, among them is a sense of pride. For decades, whenever Israel with the help of its western allies unleashed war on neighboring countries, those countries lost the war.

    In 2006 when Nasrallah’s army managed to thwart an all out Israeli invasion of Lebanon, even when Israel bombed the south of Lebanon, Nasrallah rekindled in many in the region a sense of pride. No longer were Lebanese going to die in the thousands while the world looked on. During the Cold War, each superpower kept the other in check and for the first time in decades Nasrallah was a counterpoise to Israel.

    Additionally, Nasrallah does not play with semantics or parse words. He is usually candid and coherent.

    Another factor is an entire system of social services, financial and medical services that he has created for Lebanon’s south; hence it’s not difficult to see why Nasrallah has emerged as a popular figure.

    To illustrate that point, consider that after a comprehensive Israeli bombing campaign of Lebanon, Lebanese civilians were receiving medical care from Hizbollah’s clinics long before the US-backed Lebanese government was providing them with such emergency relief. Likewise, Hizbollah offered civilians loans to rebuild their homes and apartment buildings, it even gave out cash incentives while the Lebanese government was stonewalling and making promises on which it never delivered.

    • RoHa
      February 26, 2011, 1:27 am

      Hezbollah was able to drive the Israelis out of Lebanon by 2000. 2006 was an attempt by Israel to redress the imbalance.

      Immediately after the 2006, war Hezbollah had hired all the heavy equipment in Lebanon and had teams going round assessing the damage and clearing up the mess. Nasrallah also urged suppliers not to try profiteering on the reconstruction. (And anyone who tried would probably have been given a lecture on economics by young Hezbollah lads with degrees in business and economics, huge, bulging muscles, and AK47s.)

      If Hezbollah had been in charge of New Orleans after Katrina, the place would be sparkling by now.

      • Avi
        February 26, 2011, 3:51 am

        Hezbollah was able to drive the Israelis out of Lebanon by 2000.

        I agree, but the situation was slightly different in 2000 than it was in 2006.

        When Israel withdrew from the south after a 22-year-long occupation, it did so after losing a war of attrition. Much like the US in Vietnam, Israel in Lebanon could not sustain its occupation. It was becoming too costly, in human life, economically and politically.

        By 2006, Hizbollah had already expanded and developed its network of social services throughout the south. It built underground bunkers, fortified its defenses, dug tunnels and trained its soldiers in fourth generation warfare.

        So, when 2006 came along, Israeli forces went into Lebanon expecting to be met with the same Hizbollah of the 80s and 90s.

  8. eee
    February 26, 2011, 12:57 am

    When was the last time Nir Rosen talked to anyone for Um el Fahem or Baqa?

    That is the last place an intifada will start. What they are afraid of there is the Lieberman plan, they do not want to be cut off from Israel. Both of these towns are on the green line and Israel would be happy to hand them over to the PA. So why would they give Israel such an excuse? In fact, the people of Baqa al Gharbiya (West Baqa) do not want to unite with Baqa al Sharkiya (East Baqa) which is right across the green line from them.

    Nir Rozen not only does not understand what he is talking about, he also completely misses the point. The Israeli Arabs now understand what it means to be disconnected from Israel. The results of the second intifada for the West Bank and the state of Gaza have driven the point home. They know that it will take a democratic Jordan and a democratic Egypt decades to catch up to Israel economically and want to remain part of the Israeli market. And if they don’t want to be part of this market, nobody is forcing them. Um el Fahem and Baqa do not need an intifada to leave Israel. All they have to do is ask and Israel will be happy to oblige.

    • andrew r
      February 26, 2011, 2:24 am

      Israel would be happy to remove Arabs? No way!

      When Israel finally decides to expel its own Palestinian citizens, the process will include legalistic measures. Voluntarily renouncing your citizenship is like sheep to the slaughter. You like that phrase, don’t you?

    • ToivoS
      February 26, 2011, 3:08 am

      eee yet again allows his psychotic impulses to show. “arabs of Israel submit or you will be expelled”. His desire to see the expulsion is almost palpable.

      Sorry boob, the Arabs, both inside and outside the green line, will continue to demand justice and will continue to resist your racist policies. And in the meantime we will hear your whines “this is antisemitism” or “remember the holocaust” but the outcome is fore ordained — the Palestinian people will achieve justice in a ME state that recognizes the rights of its Jewish, Christian and Muslim citizens. A state where the word ‘Zionism” will be some meaningless word in the preamble of one of the minority parties that compete for political power. Now that is a future state I could support.

    • Avi
      February 26, 2011, 4:08 am


      It’s too bad that you’re an amateur fabricator.

      First off, when the Israeli government allowed fascist Khanists to enter Umm al-Fahem last year they were met with resistance, both verbal and physical.

      The fact that both towns happen to be located near the Green Line, has not deterred the population from protesting Israel’s fascist policies.

      In fact, much of Israeli society has always viewed Palestinians in Israel as a fifth column. So, whether the inhabitants of those towns protest or not, Israel will continue to hold the prospect of Transfer like a noose over their heads.

      The “Lieberman plan” is nothing new. It was always there, peddled by other politicians including many on the left.

      And if they don’t want to be part of this market, nobody is forcing them. Um el Fahem and Baqa do not need an intifada to leave Israel. All they have to do is ask and Israel will be happy to oblige.

      It’s this very pompous smugness that makes me want to vomit every time I read your posts. You must be a very contemptuous person in real life. How do people stand to be around you?

      Of course Israel would be more than happy to oblige. But, what right does Israel have to strip the indigenous people of their basic freedom of movement or their right to the land should they decide to join a different political entity? None.

      As the events of October 2000 showed, Israel will continue to strangle its non-Jewish citizens, whether they protest or not.

      One thing is certain, rights are not granted, they are DEMANDED. And the Palestinians are DEMANDING their rights.

      So you can pompously hide behind your military might and brute force, but that won’t guarantee Israel (or you) any long term survival.


      As for the economic conditions, as you already know, but willfully lie every time, Israel has subsided Jewish farmers and industries over the years so as to destroy non-Jewish agriculture and manufacturing.

      Israel is economically better off than Jordan or Syria due to several factors, including:

      * Ample — often tax free — donations from non-Israeli Jews.

      * Favorable trade agreements and treaties courtesy of Uncle Sam and political pressure on the EU.

      * A 43-year-long Israeli military occupation of the West Bank, Jerusalem and Gaza has annihilated the industrial and agricultural capital in those areas.

      Look at the imagination and creativity that the Egyptian youth have unleashed once they were able to take the shackles of oppression off of their feet.

      The same creativity and energy could drive the Palestinian economy, if only racist parasites like Israel didn’t tie them down and destroy their hopes and dreams.

      • annie
        February 26, 2011, 4:56 am

        i am in total awe of your power thru truth avi. you rock.

      • Avi
        February 26, 2011, 5:59 am

        I’ll be printing a Truth is My Weapon bumper sticker next week.

        OK, I gotta go, my ego just walked in. ;)

      • thankgodimatheist
        February 26, 2011, 7:47 am

        Elegant knock out, Avi..Chapeau!

      • Mooser
        February 26, 2011, 12:22 pm

        “It’s this very pompous smugness that makes me want to vomit every time I read your posts. You must be a very contemptuous person in real life. How do people stand to be around you?”

        You needn’t worry about that. “eee” has no problems associating with people. He associated exclusively with Zionists.

      • eee
        February 26, 2011, 12:52 pm

        The facts of the matter are very simple. A third intifada will not start at Um al Fahem or Baqa because the residents there understand the consequences for them. They don’t like Israel? No problem, the can be part of the PA, Jordan or whatever entity they want. They can keep their land just not be part of Israel. In fact very soon Gaza will be economically part of Egypt and most Israelis will say good riddance. Let them take advantage of the “imagination and creativity of the Egyptian youth” which I am sure is much higher than that of Israelis. They don’t need us and we do not need them.

        A third intifada will not anywhere inside Israel either because the results will be similar. The people inside an Arab village can burn all the government buildings and banks they want there. So what? They will just not have banks or government services and their Jewish neighbors will stop trading with them. If that is what the Arabs want, they are welcome to try.

        It will take decades for the Arab countries to catch up economically with Israel. That is a fact. Till 67 the West Bank and Gaza were not even under Israeli occupation and the economy stunk. In fact it grew the fastest in the Arab world after 67 and till the first intifada. We already hashed that. Take the blinkers off your eyes.

  9. andrew r
    February 26, 2011, 2:57 am

    “but as Israel has changed from a socialist apartheid state to an extreme capitalist apartheid state ”

    I appreciate Nir’s insight, but Israel and the yishuv colony was never socialist, even using the term loosely enough to include the Stalinist regimes. Which at least grew out of movements that started genuinely socialist. All the leadership from Herzl to Ben-Gurion wanted gone any trace of class consciousness in their movement. In Ruppin’s personal projects, the kibbutzim and the training farms, striking was impossible. And given the rigorous vetting of olim for ideological commitment and enthusiasm, getting a composition of workers who would go on strike wasn’t likely. None of the enterprises in Palestine, the kibbutzim especially, were owned by the workers. The first aliyah colonies were backed by Rothschild for God’s sake.

    Israel has been passed off that way for the same reason as the East European regimes, the common misconception that centrally-planned = socialism. It makes about as much sense as excluding 750,000 Palestinian refugees and calling that democracy.

    link to

    link to

    • Mooser
      February 26, 2011, 12:26 pm

      Thank You, Andrew! The misconception about Zionist “socialism” has bugged for a long time. Zionists want obedience, not socialism.

      • MHughes976
        February 26, 2011, 4:01 pm

        Some Zionists did think, I suppose, that the intention to set up a society that was socialist justified setting up a society that was based on racial supremacy. Gabriel Peterberg in The Returns of Zionism mentions how important the military organisation of the Mapam Party, called Palmach, was in establishing Israel, and how close to Soviet Russia its ideology was. At that rate the idea would, I suppose, have been that the dialectic, in the Marxist sense, had advanced further Jewish people because they had been most oppressed, freeing them from class antagonism among themselves.
        Only later would others catch up. This ideology has not completely collapsed. It is echoed in every claim that the Arabs are not ready, though one day they may be, for this or that form of advancement, that they are as yet too divided among themselves to do anything constructive etc. – and we hear this kind of stuff quite often.
        Right-wing Zionism would in effect accept all claims that the Arabs are unready for what matters in life, though for them what matters is success in capitalist competition. On this theory, as I’d understand it, the best thing that the Arabs, who have so conspicuously failed to adapt oil revenues into general economic development, could do, at least for the moment, is accept the trickling-down benefits of the Zionist presence.
        The right wing and left wing versions coincide in many respects, certainly in all the important conclusions that they reach. This has been part of the genius of Zionism – that both in politics and in religion it has revelled in support from all across the Western political spectrum. Which tells us something very bad about the Western political spectrum, I think.

  10. seafoid
    February 26, 2011, 4:12 am

    Israel has terminal cancer. It is far too late for treatment to kill YESHA. 40 years too late.

    Israel is in the darkness where violence and hatred are the only values that matter. Iran is rising and Israel can’t do anything about it.

    • Jose
      February 26, 2011, 9:12 am

      You guys really ought to come visit sometime.

      • Hu Bris
        February 26, 2011, 10:43 am

        Why? Arabs children run too fast for you to murder them, so you hope for some other prey, maybe a little older and possible slower, to satisfy your bloodlust

      • Jose
        February 26, 2011, 6:30 pm

        I explained already that I served in the IDF in 2006, although I technically was not in infantry, I returned fire after an ambush. I also wrote that your demands for remorse (shoot and cry?) were laughable given the scorn you pour on those who do.
        Oh, and I explained to Mooser that Rio isn’t in Argentina.

      • Chaos4700
        February 27, 2011, 11:42 am

        Oh, you were in the IDF in 2006? Where you on the cluster bomb front in Lebanon or the refugee camp burning front in Gaza?

      • mig
        February 26, 2011, 1:38 pm

        Im packing allready….

        link to

      • pjdude
        February 26, 2011, 2:40 pm

        why should we go and finicial support a criminal enterprise we disagree with. the arrognace of you people is amazing.

      • jon s
        February 27, 2011, 2:25 pm

        Jose has a good point, since some of the comments reflect a detachment from reality. It’s usually a good idea to actually things as they are.
        pjdude, a visit could also benefit the Palestinian economy.
        Hu Bris- reported your comment on “bloodlust”.
        I also served in the IDF, and have nothing to be ashamed of.

      • Hu Bris
        February 27, 2011, 3:17 pm

        “Hu Bris- reported your comment on “bloodlust”.”

        oh noes!!!

        “I also served in the IDF, and have nothing to be ashamed of.”

        yes dear. Sure you don’t. Nothing at all shameful in occupying murdering and oppressing the natives, eh?

        I also wrote that your demands for remorse (shoot and cry?) were laughable given the scorn you pour on those who do.

        ‘Remorse’ and ‘shoot and cry’ are two very different things – ‘shoot and cry’ refers to the pathetic Zionist attempts to exonerate themselves of their crimes of murder and theft by making statements that are essentially saying ‘those damned barbaric Palestinians! LOOK what they made me do now!!” whereas genuine remorse is something completely different – but it doesn’t surpise me in the least that you are unable to sucessfully distinguish between the two – It is my guess that you see the ability to express remorse for past transgressions as a sign of weakness, whereas it is in fact an indication of mental health

      • pjdude
        February 27, 2011, 5:55 pm

        pjdude, a visit could also benefit the Palestinian economy.

        but not with out helping the Israeli one as well. the small amount of money to the palestinians wouldn’t be enough to excuse the larger to Israel.

      • jon s
        February 28, 2011, 12:43 am

        I never murdered anyone.
        Have you served in your countries’ armed forces?

    • Jose
      February 26, 2011, 9:44 am

      I’m still really from your brilliant financial predictions, seafood.

      • seafoid
        February 26, 2011, 10:15 am

        I’m watching it all, Jose. Short Israel. 5.5 million Jews holding the rest of the Middle East to ransom for another 63 years? I can’t see it happening. Can you? BDS coming down the track too and diplomatic isolation on the other side. It is going to be fun.

      • Jose
        February 26, 2011, 6:32 pm

        Hey, if it’s working for you, go with it.
        I think Alvarion and Tower Semi might be good places to start.

  11. seafoid
    February 26, 2011, 6:26 am

    I can’t imagine what it is like to adhere to an ideology and wake up one day to the realisation that the ideology is no longer capable of framing the world.

    Israel looks more and more pathetic.

    link to

  12. jon s
    February 26, 2011, 7:10 am

    Tonight: demonstation in Jerusalem against racism and xenophobia in Israel.
    19:30, Zion Square. Please notify friends and acquaintences. Be there.

  13. eGuard
    February 26, 2011, 9:32 am

    Rosen has entered the horrific and important area of predicting the next war by Israel. Which could be a civil war (against non-Jews within ’67) indeed. Or some violent action in Occupied Territory [or -ies], which includes deportation.

    At least the option “Iran” has moved further down the list, which might be a true Obama achievement after all. Am I right that reinvading Lebanon is not useful now either?

    A returning point is “the sooner the war, the better” (as we have heard about Iran for years).

  14. pabelmont
    February 26, 2011, 9:37 am

    Israeli views of Arab societies: “its an echo chamber of security obsessed people.” A very important point. Not merely sympathy missing, but information.

    I wonder how different it is, if at all, in the USA. We are (that is, our gov’t is) severely invested in group-think, whereby people only hear (or say) what is permitted (by the very, very slowly evolving group) to be said. they also (because they consequently) only think what is consistent with the ideas echoing around in that great but severaly limited echo-chamber. Thinking depends, in my slight experience, on communication, discussion, and also on writing. You cannot ‘think” what you cannot explain, and people do not bother to explain carefully something that has zero chance of being read by someone else. So group-think limits person-think.

    Group-think governs “national security” (whatever that means — I suppose it means war-profiteering for the people who can pronounce “national security” with a straight face), of anti-terrorism (ditto), and of Middle East policy (aka, Israel-first-ism). And thought-police (suppression of inconsistent speech by non-players) plays a large role, at least in the I/P and M/E arena.

    How can it be that Americans see the very small slaughter in Libya today and desire to intervene because they keenly feel their own humanitarian impulses — but felt nothing during Gaza 2008-9 and Lebanon 2006? We get explanations, first off, by persons wearing blinkers and the discussion is thereafter trapped and occurs within the echo-chamber. “Israelis have a right to defend themselves” constantly repeated wipes out information and fellow-feeling for the victims of the Israelis-only-exercising-their-God-given-rights. Whereas no-one’s been saying that Qadhafi’s got a right to defend himself or his regime.

    Echo-chamber. Group-think. Talk-suppression. Manufacture-of-consent, manufacture-of-consensus.

    Ask yourself when you last heard a real flurry of people suggesting that (or merely wondering whether) the national debt might usefully be reduced by severe taxation of the super-rich (at tax rates we had during the Eisenhower administration). You didn’t. It’s a natural idea, and it deserves discussion, but there is a no-fly rule for that one. It’s an example of a case where anti-terrorism really works!

  15. seafoid
    February 26, 2011, 10:18 am

    “Ask yourself when you last heard a real flurry of people suggesting that (or merely wondering whether) the national debt might usefully be reduced by severe taxation of the super-rich (at tax rates we had during the Eisenhower administration). You didn’t. It’s a natural idea, and it deserves discussion, but there is a no-fly rule for that one. It’s an example of a case where anti-terrorism really works!”

    The US desperately needs to tax to the rich. It would keep the country going for much longer. You could also look at slashing “defense” spending. Another no brainer.

  16. Kathleen
    February 26, 2011, 12:40 pm

    Richard Engel, CNN’s Anderson Cooper, 60 minutes Lara Login can not hold a candle to Nir Rosen’s reporting. He goes where they will not even dip their toes in. Nir Rosen is the best reporter in the middle east by far

  17. seafoid
    February 26, 2011, 3:06 pm

    Nir Rosen and the few others talking sense in Israel have been sidelined by the triumph of YESHA. The country’s intellectuals have almost all been co-opted and have nothing to say. And yet it is only the likes of Rosen that are going to be able to fashion a viable future for Israel. Assuming it has one.

  18. lyn117
    February 26, 2011, 7:40 pm

    I love Nir Rosen too. I have one big fear, that the US has also come under control of our own taliban, namely, the Christian right lead by Palin & her ilk. Of course, last 2 times I flipped through the channels on my TV and paused for a moment on one of the Christian ones, the whole program was about supporting Israel. So maybe it’s the same taliban.

    • fuster
      February 26, 2011, 8:49 pm

      If you still have a tv and there’s more than one channel, you can be sure that the Taliban haven’t quite taken over.

      (just try to imagine a Christian channel in Talibanland. even imagining it might be a criminal offense)

  19. Jose
    February 27, 2011, 12:18 am

    There’s no point in arguing with people who draw comparisons between America and Afghanistan. All you can Sonia suggest they do done traveling.

    • Chaos4700
      February 27, 2011, 11:44 am

      All you can Sonia suggest they do done traveling.

      Are you channeling Witty now?

  20. Abdul-Razzaq Momen
    February 27, 2011, 11:54 am

    It seems that the lesson which the Israeli leaders are going to learn ,though it will be too late to get any benefit of it (same mistake of the toppled Arab dictators)is too expensive in their blood banks .Yet their usual commercial banks are rich with currency ,the adventures with the (sacred) Jewish God blessed blood will be different from now on .The miserable wars of the oppressed Arab armies and the badly prepared armed groups in 1948,1956,1967,1982 will never be repeated.When all the means of stuggle are shut off ,you know what a single zealous “terrorist”achieve – if we calculate the results in the number of casualties falling here or there.Such “suicide bombers ” are going to be thousands of Arabs rather than the Palestinians.Some one as commentator put it in the ( bare naked Islam ) 2 million chanters in Altahrir Square need 202 seconds to be killed with the lethal weapons of Israel .BUT REMEMBER THAT THIS THREAT IS GOING TO BE ANSWERED WITH AN ISLAMIC RESPONSE FASTER THAN YOU CAN IMAGINE!!!!

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