There’s work to do

Israel/Palestine
on 151 Comments

Gallup says Americans favor Israelis over Palestinians by record numbers, 63-17. Here’s the poll, with lots of graphs. Support for Palestinians is highest among American liberals, with 30 percent sympathy. The numbers are 80 percent of Republicans for Israel, and 57 percent of Dems and Independents. Gallup:


Americans’ views toward the Israeli-Palestinian conflict held fairly steady over the past year, with a near record-high 63% continuing to say their sympathies lie more with the Israelis. Seventeen percent sympathize more with the Palestinians…

on a relative basis, Palestinians’ greatest support is found among liberals (30%), followed by Democrats and those with postgraduate education (24% each).

Additionally, adults aged 18 to 34 are slightly less likely than those 55 and older to sympathize with the Israelis….

In recent years, with no major breakthroughs in the Mideast peace process and no resolution to the Hamas vs. Fatah political rift in the Palestinian territories, Americans’ sympathies toward the conflict’s players have leaned heavily toward the Israelis. In fact, with more than 60% of Americans sympathizing with Israel since 2010, public support for the Jewish state has been stronger than at any time other than in 1991, when Israel was hit by Iraqi Scud missiles during the Gulf War.

151 Responses

  1. seafoid
    March 1, 2011, 5:08 pm

    It’s time to present the numbers to America. how much has gone to Israel since 1948. Israeli union membership benefits. Numbers of Israelis with healthcare and university education. Cost of Israeli healthcare and a univerity education. How many American jobs are lost due to Israeli competition in military hardware. How much technology is transferred.

  2. Potsherd2
    March 1, 2011, 5:11 pm

    Things are connected. Look up at the piece about Al-Jazeera locked out of the US media market, and you can see the reason.

  3. Donald
    March 1, 2011, 5:27 pm

    More posts like this, please. Usually there is too much cheerleading at this blog about how the Lobby is about to crumble away and not enough attention to the depressing reality. I wish they were about to crumble, but with numbers like that obviously they still have a lot of clout.

    It might be significant that the Palestinian Authority has so little support–it suggests what one would suspect anyway, which is that most Americans don’t pay that much attention to how the conflict is presented or they’d know that the PA is usually presented as the rational moderate “good” Palestinians who are cooperating with the Israelis. Though maybe the conservative Israel fans are like Huckabee and think that the only good Palestinian is an ethnically cleansed and absent Palestinian.

    God bless America.

    • Philip Weiss
      March 1, 2011, 5:31 pm

      thank you donald. i try and put on my journalist hat now and then. and take off my pleated skirt and pompoms

      • Donald
        March 1, 2011, 5:31 pm

        Don’t get me wrong–that pleated skirt looks good.

      • MarkF
        March 2, 2011, 8:59 am

        Right, I’m sitting in the dark smoking a cig just thinkin’ about it…

      • MRW
        March 1, 2011, 8:36 pm

        Ditto the electronic pompoms. Chicka-boom-chicka-boom.

    • Shingo
      March 1, 2011, 11:43 pm

      I don’t think it’s that r surprising to be honest given the level of Islamophbia that’s rife in this country. I doubt the numbers would have been much higher for Egyptians, even after their revolution.

      • Linda J
        March 2, 2011, 12:34 am

        actually majority of americans did support the egyptian’s revolt: link to salon.com

      • Citizen
        March 2, 2011, 11:33 am

        Yes, Linda J, but–thanks to the MSM, those same Americans with joy in their heart for the new ring of the Egyptian liberty bell, were not given any detailed connective dots as to how and why Mubarak was enable by the USAIPAC to tyrannize the Egyptian masses for 30 years, nor how much it cost the US taxpayors. And there’s not the slightest sign those majority of Americans are reconsidering 1.3 billion aid to Egypt’s military to keep Israel safe from the sound of the liberty bell.

  4. Edward Q
    March 1, 2011, 5:29 pm

    I saw a quote which suggested to me that the poll was equating “support for Palestinians” with “support for the PA”. This makes me suspect the poll was designed to obtain favorable responses toward Israel and negative ones toward the Palestinians.

    • Pamela Olson
      March 1, 2011, 5:52 pm

      I noticed that, too. There’s not even much support for the PA among Palestinians, much less Americans! They should phrase it on equal terms — Palestinian people and Israeli people, or PA and Netanyahu. Methinks the results would be somewhat different.

      That said, there’s DEFINITELY still work to do… there’s still a huge amount of ignorance, and people don’t know whom to believe, so they sort of believe the white people by default. But if we could find an effective way to get the Palestinian side of the story out to mainstream audiences in a way they could digest and relate to, there’d be no contest.

      • Edward Q
        March 2, 2011, 8:34 am

        “…there’s still a huge amount of ignorance”

        About this and everything else. I think the problem is larger then the I/P issue, which is why it is so difficult to address.

      • Citizen
        March 2, 2011, 11:37 am

        Well, yes, Edward Q, and it relates to the corrupt power of the US MSM, and the Al Jazeera topic currently alive elsewhere on this blog; here’s a big picture at why that huge amount of ignornace is so difficult to address–nobody’s able to break the stranglehold: link to jkcook.net

      • Psychopathic god
        March 2, 2011, 6:01 pm

        on the other hand, Citizen, look at all the people that have come to this blog in the past ~18 months,
        and remember why it is that people in the US are asking for Al Jazeera — because hundreds of thousands of people in the US became aware of it.
        That genie ain’t goin back in the bottle.

        What’s worse — as the genie comes fully out of the bottle and people realize the extent to which they’ve been lied to, there will be hell to pay.
        Israel is built on one lie atop another. When the house of cards comes tumbling, it will go all the way to the foundation.

        Trends 2011 — Israel will be the odd man out

    • CK MacLeod
      March 1, 2011, 7:02 pm

      Check the link, Edward Q… the question about Ps v Is makes no mention of the PA, and has been asked since 1988, and has never shown the Ps > 20%. The lowest score for the Is is 37 (1988). The last few years have had I in its highest historical range.

      This is what one calls significant, consistent, longstanding, and conclusive evidence – which is not to say unchangeable or controlling.

      • Edward Q
        March 2, 2011, 8:24 am

        O.K., the poll asked a variety of questions. Nevertheless, my question is still valid: Was the poll slanted?

    • eGuard
      March 1, 2011, 8:23 pm

      About a week ago someone linked to this poll in the comments (how come the report date is 28 Feb this time then? Strange). I added that the question was shifting through the report: from “Palestinians” to “Arabs”, if I remember well. I’ll look that up.

      • eGuard
        March 1, 2011, 9:45 pm

        Strange reportings by Gallup. In this comment, fuster linked to the corresponding poll report from a year ago: Feb 24, 2010. The report is here.

        Now the first graph in Phil’s link is extended with this years results, OK. But two other questions are not reported this year, even though the questions were asked for over ten years and showed some trend. These two questions are (as read in the 2010 report; see 2nd and 3rd graph):
        – “Do you think there will … come a time when Israel and the Arab nations will be able … to live in peace?”
        – “(idem), by Party ID”.

        Quite strange that Gallup does not report these graphs this year. Especially since the interviews were conducted on February 1-5, 2011, when protests in Egypt were mounting. Instead we got the “sympathy for Israelis or Palestinians, by Party ID ” more detailed.

        The “Arab” is not reported this year. But why?

    • Psychopathic god
      March 2, 2011, 5:42 pm

      The Principles of Israel Advocacy (The Hasbara Manual)
      http://www.wujs.org.il

      p. 25

      BANDWAGON
      Most people, when in doubt, are happy to do what other people are doing. This is the bandwagon effect. People are happy to be part of the crowd, and subtle manipulators can play on this desire by emphasizing the large size of their support. Although it is reasonable that people are given a chance to find out how many other supporters a speaker or movement has, often it is possible to create the impression of extensive support – through gathering all supporters in one place, or through poorly conducted opinion polls – in an attempt to persuade people who are keen to follow the crowd.

      Israel activists can commission opinion polls amongst groups who favour Israel, and use these to give the impression of large numbers that Israel is the ‘team to support’. Demonstrations, and even photos that give the impression of large numbers can help to create the impression that Israel is even more popular than it is.

      Remember that playing with perceptions of numbers supporting a cause can be problematic if this means that genuine supporters become complacent.

      p. 26

      Palestinian activists’ success at creating the impression that they have enormous support is hard to counter. The most obvious and most effective response is to try and seem even better supported. Otherwise, simply start to deal with the issues, especially using ‘plain folks’ techniques, to gain support that is committed, and not just jumping on the bandwagon.

  5. Ellen
    March 1, 2011, 6:48 pm

    “Results for this Gallup poll are based on telephone interviews conducted Feb. 2-5, 2011, with a random sample of 1,015 adults, aged 18 and older, living in the continental U.S., selected using random-digit-dial sampling.”

    But was was the question? How was it posed? Where did this random sample live? What was their education, attention to world events.

    With over 275 million people over 18 living in the US, a sample of 1,015 is statistically not representative of anything because such an extremely low sampling cannot be extrapolated as there are too many factors not accounted for, let alone we do not even know the question used.

    But yes, there is so much work to do. How?

    • Antidote
      March 2, 2011, 12:49 am

      The question as posed is just under the headline of the graph (easy to miss)

      “In the ME situation, are your sympathies more with the Israelis or more with the Palestinians?”

      What ‘ME situation’? That there’s only one tiny Jewish state and many large and small Arab and Muslim countries? Only ‘true democracy in the ME’? Not very secure when ‘Israel’s security is sacrosanct’ (Obama)?

      That’s the question I would ask if I sought a positive result for Israelis in the US. It’s (see Piotr below) a bit like asking Europeans a few centuries ago whether they sympathize with white settlers and refugees from famines and persecution in Europe or with native Americans defending their land and culture.

      Answers to this question do not tell us what Americans think about Israel but how they should feel about Israel. NOT like Helen Thomas.

  6. Avi
    March 1, 2011, 7:03 pm

    You know, perhaps it’s for the best. Israel continues to suckle on Uncle Sam’s teat while the American tax payer foots the bill.

    One day in the future, when history books about an American empire that had collapsed will have already collected some dust, a clueless American will trip over a book, sending dust particles flying in every direction as the book lands open on the page that shows how Israel used the US. And when that day comes, that dumb American will get a clue.

  7. piotr
    March 1, 2011, 7:03 pm

    Lies, damn lies and statistics.

    “Sympathy” is a very plastic term, and manipulating the question is surprisingly easy. In another poll, there was also an option of “sympathize equally” and 51% or respondents took it. Look here.

    Even more interestingly, 64% of those who sympathize more with Israel oppose the settlement. In other words, the political position of J-Street seems astute in terms of staking the ground that has large supporting majority, at least, among the unwashed masses.

    Other parts of the poll I have cited show that American attitudes are incredibly plastic. Something to the effect “gee, I do not know”. Here is the thing:

    Each respondent was also asked to evaluate an argument against and an argument in defense of Israel’s building settlements in the Palestinian territories. These arguments were originally developed with the advice of the Israeli embassy in the US and the Palestinian Mission at the UN.

    The sequence of events was not well described, but apparently half of the respondents found BOTH arguments convincing, and under the strain of that mental effort (a) decided to show equal sympathy to both sides, and (b) decided that settlements are NOT a good thing.

    Outside narrow “internal” forums, AIPAC-ers (we need a relatively neutral term for defenders of Israeli policies) do not defend settlements but talk about the need of “supporting our only reliable ally”, “sharing values” (in soporific terms rather than “we killed Indians and we have to let Israel have some fun too”), “vibrant and rambunctious democracy” (“rambunctious is again reserved for more Jewish forums, as our adorable brats discuss enacting fines of 10,000 dollars for expressing unwanted opinions etc.) etc.

    The most important thing is that public should NEVER be exposed to this vile piece of paper that respondents of World Public Opinion poll read (short statements prepared by Israeli Embassy and PA Mission). Only then the stratospheric 64% support can be maintained.

  8. yourstruly
    March 1, 2011, 7:30 pm

    there’s too much hesitancy to hit the zionists where they’re most vulnerable, the dual loyalty issue. statements, for example, by general david petreaus, & vice president joe biden, among others, that israel’s intransigence vis a vis a peace agreement endangers u.s. troops in afghanistan, as well as being why they hate us.

    • fuster
      March 1, 2011, 9:11 pm

      yt, bad idea.

      puts you in with the crowd that says dumb stuff about “ground zero mosques” and Muslims all support bringing sharia law to the US, and all Muslims support terror.

      dual loyalty arguments are bad all the way through.

      • Chaos4700
        March 2, 2011, 12:34 pm

        Hit a bit close to home, did it?

    • piotr
      March 1, 2011, 10:47 pm

      I do not think that this has any chance to work with broad public.

      For dual loyalty you would need to show that there is a divergence of interests. Is there? It is really complicated and boring (I mean, to the broad public).

      I was really impressed by the numbers in the poll I have found. People read a simple pair of statements, justification of settlements and opposing view by official sides in the conflict, and, wow, there was not a single group among the public with majority supporting the settlements! Obama really found a vulnerable spot, and, characteristically, he blinked.

      As this experiment shows, this is a point that is really easy to explain. And starting with that, one can heap examples of injustice and mendacity which are not in ANYONE long term interest.

  9. Howard
    March 1, 2011, 7:39 pm

    I really can’t say the poll results surprise me nor can I say say I find them disheartening. Up until a few years ago I was a mindless, unquestioning supporter of all things Israel. I am often surprised how, even in the rather well educated, generally informed circles I move in, the lack of knowledge, not to mention the general apathy, regarding the I/P issue is shocking, especially given that Americans are very much affected by blowblack from our government’s policies. How many Americans even know about the recent Security Council vote on settlements? Was it even mentioned on the major network news?

    Two things give me hope that somehow in the end justice and righteousness will prevail. First as the study shows “adults aged 18 to 34 are slightly less likely than those 55 and older to sympathize with the Israelis.” Younger people have not been as brainwashed as most of my generation. Since they are more likely to get their news on line, they are more likely to come across more more critical reporting. They will be the vanguard for change.

    Second, my experienced has shown me that most well intentioned “pro Israel” individuals, those who truly value fairness, basic human rights and human decency, flip very quickly when they start to learn the facts. Once the more of the real story breaks starts breaking through, these numbers will be reversed overnight. International events may make this happen faster than one would think.

    • Citizen
      March 2, 2011, 12:01 pm

      Howard, thanks for your candid comment; an my experience is identical with yours respecting the more informed Americans. That Americans will flip when they learn the facts is, of course, exactly why the MSM media doesn’t give them any objective facts when it comes to anything inolving Israel. Hence the importance of Al Jeezera coming to America, as discussed now in other articles on this very blog. So far, those international events are being discussed in the same old way except now
      the cable TV news shows use Al Jeezera video clips–without of course telling the American public there is a de facto ban on Al Zeezra broadcasting in the USA with very few geographical exceptions. Here’s the bigger pic: link to jkcook.net

  10. Richard Witty
    March 1, 2011, 8:40 pm

    When you say, “there is work to do”, what are you suggesting?

    That the numbers shift to a different either/or conclusion?

    How about the well-being of both? PEACE.

    I think the well-being of Palestinians DOES depend on the Israeli electorate, and not at all on the US.

    I get that that feels powerless, but it is true from what I observe.

    Although what I saw at the J Street conference (you-tube clips) was not that inspiring or dynamic (mostly the absence of moral Israeli leaders), I still cannot imagine any other way to change the reality on the ground, materially without Israeli electoral transformation.

    • Shingo
      March 1, 2011, 11:52 pm

      I think the well-being of Palestinians DOES depend on the Israeli electorate, and not at all on the US.

      Here we go, Witty insisting that the Israelis be left to decide what they want to do with the Palestinians.

      Sickening.

      I get that that feels powerless, but it is true from what I observe.

      I get the feeling that this is all you want.

      I still cannot imagine any other way to change the reality on the ground, materially without Israeli electoral transformation.

      Correction: You cannot tolerate any other way other than the status quo.

    • Citizen
      March 2, 2011, 12:12 pm

      Witty, Re: “I think the well-being of Palestinians DOES depend on the Israeli electorate, and not at all on the US.” No, the well-being of Palestinians depends on getting the facts on the I-P situation to the American people, who fund Israel’s oppressive and internationally illegal conduct regarding the Palestinians, and who’s government diplomatically immunizes Israel from any accountability, e.g., Rice veto regarding condemnation of Israeli settlements. The “work to do” is to, in every possible, give the American people a balanced account of the I-P conflict. Somehow increase pressure on the American MSM to live up to the privileged license they have to fully inform Americans so that
      this nation can be one guided by the informed consent of its citizens even as to things relating to Israel and its conduct and American support of same.

  11. MRW
    March 1, 2011, 8:40 pm

    (1) Same poll results as those in favor of the Iraq War at the beginning.

    (2) They probably got their 1,015 adults mostly in the NE corridor, although they said it was continental. 150 cell phone-only respondents and 850 landline respondents. That oughta’ tell you something.

    • Citizen
      March 2, 2011, 12:14 pm

      Land line? What’s that? Yes, it tells us plenty MRW–thanks.

      • annie
        March 2, 2011, 12:30 pm

        the hasbara handbook has a little section on using polls they like. who funded this poll? gallop doesn’t just happen to do polls like this.

      • DBG
        March 2, 2011, 11:48 pm

        Annie, you really need to quit making excuses and claiming conspiracy over everything you don’t agree with. How is it helping the Palestinians?

      • annie
        March 3, 2011, 12:11 am

        i need to take your advice like i need a hole in my head.

      • Shingo
        March 3, 2011, 12:19 am

        How is it helping the Palestinians?

        What do you care?

  12. hughsansom
    March 1, 2011, 9:34 pm

    Two words (sort of): USS Liberty. Start showing the American people the facts that are simply never reported in the Times or on CNN or NPR, and things might change — emphasis on “might”. A significant portion of US hostility to Palestinians is based in the pervasive US racism towards Arabs generally.

    NPR carried an interview a week or two ago with a scholar of some sort (a linguist or sociologist, maybe) who commented that he took the expression “Arab street” to be somewhat racist. He noted, rightly, that the “street” lingo is not used with respect to any other group. The NPR interviewer was mildly taken aback but (impressively for NPR) receptive.

    My point is that anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian racism is so widespread, so deep and (often) so subtle, that, important though the glaring facts (like the Liberty) are, it’s going to take an enormous change to affect the balance of opinion on Israel-Palestine.

    I predict that the response to protests in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya and elsewhere will bear this out. From the standpoint of “winning American hearts and minds,” Arabs are in a no-win situation. If democratic movements succeed, they may well express greater support for Palestinians, in which case American “leaders” will condemn them. If democratic movements fail, the Bernard Lewis/Glenn Beck school will claim they were right all along.

    The long and the short of it is: Americans are so ill-informed and so bigoted that no combination of fact or reason will shift the majority.

    • fuster
      March 2, 2011, 12:19 am

      the phrase “man in the street” is pretty old and applied widely, including to the nephews of Uncle Sam.
      it has it’s equivalent in French, to describe the opinions of working-class Frenchmen and I would provide it, but frog limbs and lingo are frowned upon.

    • Citizen
      March 2, 2011, 12:28 pm

      Hughsamson, bingo! Here’s another two words (sort of), going back to 1954, rather than 1967: Lavon Affair. link to whatreallyhappened.com

      Average Americans will ferret out every drop of negative news from anywhere about any Arab; but they always ignore the AIPAC negativity that’s right in their face. Neither accusations of racism or ethnic or religious bigotry against them fazes them in the least. Once upon a time they would’ve made good Jew-haters, or indifferent enablers of such hate, telling you to look beyond your best friend the Jew, and look at how the Jew leaders & their supportive Jewish organizations hiding behind innoucuous and/or patriotic mission names work against us. Israel-Firsters (& Christian Zionists) in the USA have managed to switch the demon cap when they weren’t looking.

  13. Linda J
    March 1, 2011, 9:42 pm

    They called a majority of land lines (I think it was about 75%), which to me could indicate an older population.

    Also, Jonathan Cook’s latest article, “Empire of Lies, Why Our Media Betrays Us” link to jkcook.net explains alot about why the public is so ignorant.

    • Citizen
      March 2, 2011, 12:31 pm

      Yes, indeed it does, Linda J. I’ve been spreading Cook’s article all over the place, to every person and social network platform I can find.

  14. Jeffrey Blankfort
    March 1, 2011, 9:55 pm

    Given the dominant role of the Zionist Lobby in and over the media, it should come as no surprise that Americans will favor Israel over the Palestinians and there is not a chance of reversing that position as long as the question is framed as Gallup frames it.

    A more significant Gallup poll figure shows that Israel comes in only eighth in America’s list of favorites, losing out even to formerly “Freedom Fries” France.

    What this means is not that we should expend a greater effort to gain support for the Palestinians, but more to expose the negative aspects of having Israel as an ally, how, in addition to the billions we have spent on both Israel AND Egypt (because the one is connected to the other), Washington has adopted Israel’s enemies as its own, and, following the very public agenda of the pro-Israel neocons, launched a disastrous war against Iraq for which we will be paying for years.

    At appropriate moments, in this argument, it is well to raise the issue of the USS Liberty, the telling of which has a powerful effect on your average American who has never heard about it, and as you explain why he or she has not, their anger becomes more palpable and you now have one less American for Israel.

    Believe me, the American whose eyes might glaze over if you talk about the cruelty of the Gaza siege or even Operation Cast Lead, will have a very different response to the gory details of Israel’s attack on the Liberty. Like as not he or she has had a relative in the military and so the tale of the Liberty hit close to home.

    That the Palestine Solidarity has never made the Liberty an issue has been due, I suspect, to the traditional Left opposition to anything that has to do with the US military, even, apparently, when it involves the cold blooded murder on the part of the Israeli navy and air force of 34 US sailors and the wounding of 171 more who were in a non combat role.

    I now expect the Israeli Firsters who pollute this blog, Witty, Hophmi, Yonira and eee to rise to do their assigned tasks and tell us, in effect, that the stories told by all of the Liberty survivors are false and that it was all a case of mistaken identity.

    • dbroncos
      March 2, 2011, 12:08 am

      Jeffrey –

      I agree with our point about the USS Liberty. When the US gov’t sells out foreigners in a foreign land it doesn’t get the attention of most Americans. But selling out US soldiers in deference to a foreign power is another thing entirely. The assault on the Liberty, despite being ‘ancient history’, is a great way to illustrate for Americans the depths of depravity to which our elected officials are willing to sink so as not to ‘embarrass an ally’. It was a deliberate attack, on a clearly marked US ship flying an American flag. The details of this story are outrageous. Among them is the testimony of a sailor who claims that in response to the attack, US warplanes, armed with nuclear weapons, were launched from the aircraft carrier on which he was stationed. Concurrently, the US Ambassador in Cairo was told to prepare for an attack. Apparently, Egypt was initially blamed for the attack. The planes were called back to the ship. After off-loading their nukes they were not permitted to relaunch in response to the Liberty’s distress signals. Soviet Navy vessels were the first to offer assistance to the crew of the Liberty.

      Did we almost nuke Cairo? We may never know if Israel’s supporters have their way. The BBC’s documentary ‘Dead in the Water’ is a great expose’ on the Liberty. It hasn’t seen the light of day on American TV.
      Not available on Netflix neither.

      • tree
        March 2, 2011, 3:50 am

        “Dead in the Water” is available for viewing here:

        link to video.google.com

        I just finished viewing it. It made me more pissed at the US government than at Israel. I’ve come to expect this kind of behavior from Israel. That the US government would covertly join in the War, and that it was close to dropping a bomb on Cairo -that is totally sickening.

        The BBC documentary confirmed what I had read in Stephen Green’s book, “Taking Sides”: that the US had set up in the Negev during the war and took reconnaissance flights and pictures of the destruction in Egypt. The documentary, and Stephen Green’s earlier revelations, do however provide a totally believable and crucial reason for the total cover up by the US. If it had come out then that we had secretly joined in the 1967 war on Israel’s side, our name would have rightly been worst than mud in the Arab world for decades. The thought that the US bears not just an indirect and enabling role in the 40 odd years of Palestinian suffering in the Occupied Territories, but a very direct and shameful one totally appalls me.

      • Citizen
        March 2, 2011, 12:38 pm

        Thanks tree, I think I will mail your link to some jesus freaks I know who don’t trust the US government at all, yet have totally bought into
        watching over your shoulder for those Arabs who want to steal away baby Jesus & impose Sharia law here in the USA.

      • Richard Witty
        March 2, 2011, 7:47 pm

        I basically don’t know about the Liberty, and don’t bother to find out. I get that you think that that will the stimuli that breaks the hypnosis.

        You don’t have a clue about my attitudes or likely the others that you brandished.

        They certainly differ from yours. I saw you on a you-tube a few weeks ago. You started out so soberly, speaking of history descriptively without condemnation. But then you shifted (nakba), and then not a kind word from your mouth for the 6 million current Israelis.

        Its painful to listen to, not painful because of “truth”, but because of your raw.

        You speak of “Israel first” as a great curse. “THEY” distinguish between us and them.

      • Shingo
        March 2, 2011, 8:01 pm

        I basically don’t know about the Liberty, and don’t bother to find out.

        How strange. That’s the same reaction you admit to having to the Goldstone Report. You don’t know what’s in it and you don’t want to know what’s in it.

        You don’t have a clue about my attitudes or likely the others that you brandished.

        But on the contrary Mr Witty, we have hundreds of your comments over the years which provide volumes of clues about your attitudes.

        But then you shifted (nakba), and then not a kind word from your mouth for the 6 million current Israelis.

        Yes Witty, he moved onto a subject you hate to talk about, even though it as “necessary” for a good in the world.

        Its painful to listen to, not painful because of “truth”, but because of your raw.

        What’s his raw Witty? Raw is an adjective.

      • Chaos4700
        March 2, 2011, 8:06 pm

        I basically don’t know about the Liberty, and don’t bother to find out.

        That’s Witty all over, isn’t it? Information that conflicts with the agenda gets categorically rejected. “I’m sorry, I won’t learn anything about that.

        You speak of “Israel first” as a great curse.

        There are a few dozen dead Americans, at minimum, who would agree with that. If we could ask them now.

      • Potsherd2
        March 2, 2011, 8:06 pm

        “I DON’T BOTHER TO FIND OUT”

        This should be RW’s permanent sig line.

      • Shingo
        March 2, 2011, 8:12 pm

        This should be RW’s permanent sig line.

        I often wonder what goes through Witty’s head as he types these kinds of statements. Does he ever stop to consider what they say about him?

        And then he has he audacity to turn around and demand that we “make a better argument”. I can;t help but wonder if he’s not some special Mossad operative that has been trained in psyops to try and mess with people’s heads.

        Unbelievable.

      • Jeffrey Blankfort
        March 2, 2011, 9:23 pm

        I assume you were referring to some statement that I made on You Tube, Witty. Do we need any more proof that you are an Israeli Firster, given your expressed concern for six million Israeli Jews and admitted lack of concern for the 205 US sailors murdered and wounded by the Israeli luftwaffe in 1967? You aptly proved the point that I and others who have been reading your posts.

        The good news and the bad news? You are not alone. Just yesterday, n the response to a mention of the Liberty in a comment in the LA Jewish Journal that initially dealt with the attack on Lara Logan in Cairo, one of fellow sayanim, name of Ben Plonie, wrote “No Jew ever brings up the Liberty.” He knows more than you about the Liberty and, although he sucks the Israeli tit on this issue, he knows better than to suggest a public discussion about it. That’s all the more reason that Americans with no vested interest in the conflict get to know about it.

      • Richard Witty
        March 3, 2011, 5:35 am

        I care for the living, democracy in the present. You?

        The Liberty is a distraction from democracy in the present. It did not precipitate a conflict escalation in 1967. It shouldn’t be invoked 43 years later to justify one now.

        “Israeli luftwaffe”.

        Since 1967, there have been how many elections in Israel, how many changes in government? 10 maybe? At the time, and at every time since, the two governments have determined that the incident was a miscommunication, a horrible accident.

        The lesson learned being to communicate more clearly, candidly, more effectively, to avoid unnecessary and particularly ideologically driven conflict.

        That lesson was learned.

        (That contrasts with the Iranian regime, which remains the same government as when the US embassy was taken hostage, and the Iranian regime has never fundamentally changed, but you express support for its thesis on Israel.)

        You are no patriot. For you, America is not a jewel, but only an imperial power. Not a community.

        Your interest in presenting the “truth”, is as a tactic, for a political end, not as a means of improving things.

        You are a revolutionary, and all morality melts relative to the historical imperative. Its not even considered sincerely, only invoked as propaganda.

        One historical imperative for an ideological end, approaching an opposing historical imperative for an ideological end, head on. But, with people with bodies, hearts and minds in between.

        And, when the hearts and minds can be appealed to by humanization of the other that results in reconciliation, not war for ideology.

        Your willingness to regard those with different ideology as “other”, as not worthy of humane consideration, appalls me.

        It is the political mode that I reject and what I fear. “I’ve seen your ways too often for my liking.”

      • Shingo
        March 3, 2011, 7:56 am

        I care for the living, democracy in the present. You?

        Sure Witty, whatever it takes to get the heat of the Israelis, deflect accountability and maintain your state of denial.

        That lesson was learned.

        No it wasn’t. Since then, we’ve had the flotilla attack, Cast Lead, Lebanon 2006, Lebanon 1982, 1973 and countless other attacks by Israel for the sake of military dominance and regional hegenmony.

        That contrasts with the Iranian regime, which remains the same government as when the US embassy was taken hostage

        Yes Witty, the same government that returned all hstages alive, and whi has not atatcked or inavaded anyone in 270 years.

        You are no patriot. For you, America is not a jewel, but only an imperial power. Not a community.

        What the hell are you babbling about? Yes, America is an imperial power and anyone who cares for her would know that empire is bad for America. Did it occur to you, oh patriotic one, that America was founded by revolutionaries?

        Your interest in presenting the “truth”, is as a tactic, for a political end, not as a means of improving things.

        Yes Witty, improving things is best done from a point of wilful ignorance. Is that your motto?

        Your willingness to regard those with different ideology as “other”, as not worthy of humane consideration, appalls me.

        And your willingness to regard those with different ideology as expedable, as not worthy of humane consideration, but of secondary imporatnce to teh wims of Israelis digusts all of us.

        It is the political mode that I reject and what I fear.

        No, it’s accountability, justice and equality that you fear.

      • MRW
        March 3, 2011, 5:57 pm

        Citizen,

        Send your Jesus freaks this, as well:
        link to tennessean.com

        It’s written by the religion writer for The Tennessean. Check out page 5 (click at bottom of first page).
        ================

        Tree,

        Thanks for the link.

      • Citizen
        April 17, 2012, 12:07 pm

        Witty:
        “I basically don’t know about the Liberty, and don’t bother to find out. I get that you think that that will the stimuli that breaks the hypnosis.
        You don’t have a clue about my attitudes or likely the others that you brandished.”

        Witty, your attitude is reflected by your comment, clear as a bell. Only you can be so blind not to see an hear it.

    • Shingo
      March 2, 2011, 8:03 pm

      I now expect the Israeli Firsters who pollute this blog, Witty, Hophmi, Yonira and eee to rise to do their assigned tasks and tell us, in effect, that the stories told by all of the Liberty survivors are false and that it was all a case of mistaken identity.

      As it turns out, Witty has played the 3 monkeys card and feigned ignorance.

  15. dbroncos
    March 1, 2011, 9:59 pm

    Most Americans are not invested in the I/P conflict. It’s an abstraction that has no bearing on the way we live. Opinion polls showing strong support for Israel shouldn’t be interpreted to mean that a majority of Americans connect supporting Israel to their health and welfare or any such thing. The polling results echo a narrative presented almost exclusively by Israel’s partisan supporters in our government and MSM. When the narrative changes, and it will, so will public opinion -except for those who believe that the Jewish State must be maintained by any means necessary…

  16. Susan Johnson
    March 1, 2011, 10:20 pm

    There is work to be done..
    #1…the media must begin covering the Israel Palestine issue fairly!!!-without that, to me, there will be little if any change in the public eye.

    • Citizen
      March 2, 2011, 12:42 pm

      Amen.
      The other change needed is our political campaign finance system.
      That’s the pincer movement, the mandibles, the crane’s steel jaw that has the American body by its fat head, why the American legs and arms dangle uselessly or flail equally uselessly.

  17. VR
    March 1, 2011, 10:54 pm

    Gee guys why don’t you try to get an equal platform? Oh, there is not one available huh? Owned by a few corporations, what can you do? March and chant, sing a few bars of peaceful, peaceful, peaceful.

    As far as polls go, I guess many do not even know what polls are primarily used for –

    HOW THE RULING ELITE USE POLLS

    Always before a major poll is launched by the corporate media, there is a major campaign of concentrated propaganda repeatedly voiced through the major (major in the sense of the monopoly) media sources – national, such as NBC CBS CNN FOX, etc. Why? Because they wish to set a precedent of opinion, that is they try to garner authority through the majority, which has been influenced by the said propaganda blitz. This is layered, and can go on for a long period of time, to make sure that the right message is embedded in the psyche of the population.

    Only after the above is done, is there a poll taken, and that with specific questions related to the media propaganda. Essentially what the polls do is verify “how effective” the propaganda blitz has been. So, when a decision is taken by the powers that be, whatever the subject, they look legitimate – as if they are just following the major “view of the people.” THAT is the major use of the poll in the weapon arsenal of the PR firms, and their cognate media sources. Mind you, this is an exact science, that has been perfected to manufacture the consent of the people (to use a phrase coined by Noam Chomsky).

    • fuster
      March 2, 2011, 1:58 am

      VR
      right. the only way that you can be sure that a poll has any validity is if it’s never released to the public and we never find out about it.
      everything we know is tainted, even our suspicions. all we can be sure of, is the following

      people with cell phones have better opinions.

  18. Jeffrey Blankfort
    March 2, 2011, 1:28 am

    Nothing new in what you say, VR. Polls are simply the way the propagandists run a test to see if the propaganda is working. Polls are rarely initiated with honest intent. Whoever pays for them has something to gain and/or to learn
    from them.

    Polls these days rarely ask opinions about US aid for Israel since they are not likely to get the answer the authors wish. Hence, when they do they ask the question as to whether aid to Israel should stay the same or be more or less without informing the person being questioned of exactly how much Israel is receiving.

    • maximalistNarrative
      March 2, 2011, 2:37 am

      In fact I am in favor of cutting US aide to Israel as well as US aide to Saudi, Egypt, and Turkey.

      Israel must spend most of that aide money in the US, on US weapons, it’s really a US weapons subsidy to the US military industrial complex.

      It also prevents Israel from developing and selling its own weapons on a proper scale.

      It’s such a small amount of Israeli GDP that really we can take it or leave it, our economies growth is really amazing.

      I’m in favor of cutting it off for the psychological impact. We have returned to our land, we are building Jerusalem and foreign influence in the form of money does not deter us. We are not afraid of the long road ahead. Jerusalem is our heart and from there comes our strength.

      • Shingo
        March 2, 2011, 8:01 am

        It also prevents Israel from developing and selling its own weapons on a proper scale.

        wishful thinking. Most Israeli wepoans are based on shared technology form the US or technology they’re back engineered. There wouldn’t be an Israeli arms industry were it not for the US.

        It’s such a small amount of Israeli GDP that really we can take it or leave it, our economies growth is really amazing.

        False. The military aid is less than half of the loan guarantees Isael gets – loans Israel doesn’t repay. Israel’s economic growth is entirely dependent on foreign investment from the US, which is assisted through huge subsidies care of the US taxpayer.

        We have returned to our land, we are building Jerusalem and foreign influence in the form of money does not deter us

        Israel isa frightened and increasingly alienated little pariah state. You’re headed for irrelevance. I hope you have your second passport ready.

      • RoHa
        March 2, 2011, 8:33 am

        “Most Israeli wepoans are based on shared technology form the US or technology they’re back engineered.”

        Or technology obtained through espionage. And then sold on to the Chinese.

      • Citizen
        April 17, 2012, 12:12 pm

        Direct aid is $3B per year; loans underwritten, turned into grants is another $3B per year in easy credit; & NGO tax deduction gifts for Israel amount to billions more; I’ve read from $8B per year to much higher–money other Americans have to make up with their tax payments. Also the $2B to Egypt is effectively indirect aid to Israel, and in fact US aid to Egypt is expressly conditional on Egypt effectively supporting Israel and not working against Israel’s aims.

      • MarkF
        March 2, 2011, 9:26 am

        “In fact I am in favor of cutting US aide to Israel as well as US aide to Saudi, Egypt, and Turkey.”

        Because it’s good for the U.S. or for Israel?

        “Israel must spend most of that aide money in the US, on US weapons, it’s really a US weapons subsidy to the US military industrial complex. ”

        Actually, countries other than Israel must do this. Israel is only required to spend 25% of the aid in U.S. and it does not have to account for the aid the way others do. Israel also gets the money upfront so it earns interest. Sweet deal.

        “It also prevents Israel from developing and selling its own weapons on a proper scale.”

        Like when you all sold U.S. weapons technology improperly to China?

        I do agree it’s time to cut the umbilical cord. Suggestion – can you set up a lobbying group over there?

      • MRW
        March 3, 2011, 6:03 pm

        Israel is only required to spend 25% of the aid in U.S.

        Which means US taxpayers subsidize Israeli companies in the US. They get all weaponry from us for free, or on extended loans they never have to pay back.

    • Citizen
      March 2, 2011, 12:46 pm

      Yes, Jeff, and also without informing the politely interrogated exactly what israel does with the aid we give it.

  19. CK MacLeod
    March 2, 2011, 1:34 am

    You can complain about how the poll was conducted or about polls in general, or you can deal with the information.

    Whether or not Palestinians or people in the Palestinian solidarity movement want to put any priority on whether Americans “sympathize” with Palestinians more is one question, but, other things being equal, I think it would be helpful, just in the interest of creating political maneuvering room, to get the I number and P number at least within sight of each other.

    If you think about general bottom-line simplified American values and the general, simplified image of the Palestinians, the numbers aren’t surprising at all. If you want to improve them, complaining about how unfair they are probably wouldn’t be helpful. It might even make them worse.

    People tend to like people who like them back. Sympathy, to state the obvious, is also easier if you think those other are like you (or how you like or want to see yourself). Just depicting Arabs as brave peaceful modern Facebook-friending non-America-hating freedom and democracy lovers – and winners – has opened up new possibilities. But it’s only been a month or so to make up for several decades of rather different depictions, and the new images will fade fast and may fail to set in if the revolutions go wrong, or turn anti-American and anti-semitic.

    Bringing down the Israeli image is more difficult, since “negative campaigning” tends to blow back on the people who do it.

    • Cliff
      March 2, 2011, 3:36 am

      I remember shadowing a doctor in a psychiatric clinic this past summer. At lunch, I was interviewing an elderly patient and at some point he asked me about my religion. He assumed I was Muslim (since I’m brown-skinned; I’m Indian, btw – atheist, family is atheist and hindu/superstitious). So the guy says something like, such and such is the blank word for blank in Arabic/Islam or something. I can’t recall the details. It was Islam-related.

      It stood out to me. I told him, no, I’m an atheist.

      Later that night, when I was done with my interviews, on my way out, he caught me. I was passing the lounge area and I said goodbye. He said thanks for stopping by (we had had a conversation beyond just that earlier exchange so I suppose he wanted to say something to me) and then… he said, ‘thank god you’re not a Muslim’. While shaking my hand.

      Keep in mind the setting and the age/psychological condition of this man. I’m not trying to put him down. I am aware of the situation.

      However, I think this poll is not so simple as Israeli vs. Palestinian as two isolated entities.

      It’s ‘us’ and ‘them’. It’s Arab and Muslim.

      Look at how we’ve depicted Arabs and Muslims in Hollywood. CK Macleod talks about how negative campaigning backfires – that’s nonsense. It has not backfired on the creeps who have fore DECADES vilified an entire people. It’s like Nazi propaganda. The spew from Hollywood about Arabs and Muslims.

      Furthermore, how educated do you think Americans are about the I-P conflict? This is a popularity contest. It’s about TV. It’s about PR.

      We got the truth on our side. Work through that.

      • Donald
        March 2, 2011, 7:38 am

        There’s a way to reconcile what CK said about backfiring with what you’re saying that I think is correct. I started to type something long, but it’s pretty obvious–for the majority of Americans, Israel is seen as culturally much closer to us than the Arab world. The rules are different for what you can say about Us vs. Them and Israel is perceived as one of Us.

        There’s this interesting approach taken by pro-Israel types that I never used to see but is all over the place now (including here from the resident Zionists). When an Israeli crime is mentioned they point to an American action which was similar. In the old days the people making such comparisons would be someone like Chomsky or Finkelstein, linking Israeli imperialism up with the history of Western imperialism in general. The Israel defenders who do this are clearly trying to say that you can’t criticize Israel without criticizing America, which is fine with those of us on the left, but is probably intended to appeal to the jingoistic, tribal instincts of Americans.

      • CK MacLeod
        March 2, 2011, 11:07 am

        The comment about “negative campaigning” referred to an adversarial political context and to the specific objective of bringing the Israeli number down. The propagation of negative images of Palestinians and allies is something much vaster, and a by-product of war and terrorism imagery etched deeply into the American brainpan. Strictly on the question of what the American people on a very general level have had to absorb, politicized Palestinians, allies, and associates (wanted or not) have played a major role in propagating those images, in large part based on or the main point of dramatic and bloody real events, as part of their own anti-American and anti-Israeli negative publicity campaign.

      • Donald
        March 2, 2011, 8:17 pm

        ” American people on a very general level have had to absorb, politicized Palestinians, allies, and associates (wanted or not) have played a major role in propagating those images, in large part based on or the main point of dramatic and bloody real events, as part of their own anti-American and anti-Israeli negative publicity campaign.”

        That’s an insufficient explanation. There are also dramatic and bloody real events that would tend to make Americans (or any normal person) sympathize with the Palestinians and be angry with the Israelis, but we aren’t usually presented with those stories in the mainstream. The Liberty is one example. An incident like that would become part of our national folklore, something to be brought up in the mainstream on a regular basis if it had been Egypt or Iran which had been responsible.

        And most Americans either don’t know or don’t care that Israel has killed several times as many civilians as Palestinian terrorists have managed to do.

        So the question is why that’s the case–why is it that some dramatic and bloody deeds get a lot of attention and others do not? My guess is that it’s a mixture of deliberate media slant mixed in with old fashioned anti-Arab bigotry on the part of ordinary Americans.

      • Shingo
        March 2, 2011, 8:30 pm

        Very good point Donald.

        Th right wing and media are always quick to point to the attack on the USS Cole as evidence that we’re at war with Islam, yet the USS Liberty attack not only led to far more casualties, it was much more brutal and gratuitous.

        What is amazing is how the gate keepers have been able to get away with maligning anyone who brings up the Liberty attack as being an anti Semite, even eyewitnesses. That’s an extraordinary a feat of manipulation and propaganda.

      • CK MacLeod
        March 2, 2011, 9:51 pm

        Donald, whether it ought to be or not – I’m trying to deal with what is, not necessarily with what should be – the Liberty incident for Americans is an X-file. Even if you put the worst possible cast on it, neither American leaders nor Israeli ones chose to make a big deal out of it. It didn’t serve anyone’s purposes to do so. It’s not like Israelis acted proud of it. They didn’t celebrate it. As far as I know, they didn’t name a street after the commander. They didn’t form a “Attack on the Liberty” commando group. As far as I know, they didn’t try to do it again or threaten to do it again unless the U.S. met such and such demands.

        If you go over the major events of the last 50 – 75 or so years focusing American public attention to whatever extent on the Middle East, you will find the Palestinians (and their allies) associated over and over again, and by no means passively, with countries, movements, events, people, actions, attitudes, and initiatives that Americans don’t like, don’t support, don’t understand, have literally fought against, in large numbers still fear, and/or totally reject.

        You can tell yourself that this, that, or the other defect in American understanding or sympathy is an effect of bigotry or media slant, but I think that view, among other things, underestimates the extent to which certain tactics and targets were selected specifically for maximal PR buck for the politically violent buck. That’s just the way it is. Again, I’m not talking about some notion of what Americans “ought” to think. The fact remains that changing their feelings would require replacing images like this and video like this with something else completely. I’d be pessimistic that it’s something that on a mass emotional level, the level of reflex that we’re discussing, is going to be fixed by logical persuasion…

        …we can discuss the contrasting positive associations with Israel some other time…

      • Philip Weiss
        March 2, 2011, 10:00 pm

        but ckm what is cause and effect in your second paragraph? isnt there material in there for a theory of israel lobby involvement in american priorities. in Treacherous Alliance, Trita Parsi quotes an Israeli who says that Islamic radicalism became the “glue” of the US-Israel relationship after end of cold war, by intelligent design no less…

      • fuster
        March 2, 2011, 10:15 pm

        beating yer meat against the wall, CK, if even Philip thinks that he can explain away all the terrible and destructive choices that the Palestinians have made as media manipulation foisting bad opinions on the American public.

      • Jeffrey Blankfort
        March 2, 2011, 10:34 pm

        Methinks, we have a Zionized version of a Trojan horse in the presence of Mr. CK McLeod. Look at this statement and what does it tell us:

        “I’m trying to deal with what is, not necessarily with what should be – the Liberty incident for Americans is an X-file. Even if you put the worst possible cast on it, neither American leaders nor Israeli ones chose to make a big deal out of it. It didn’t serve anyone’s purposes to do so. It’s not like Israelis acted proud of it. They didn’t celebrate it. As far as I know, they didn’t name a street after the commander.”

        This tells me that “McLeod” follows Israeli politics very closely and that he is doing his best to keep the Liberty issue submerged because that battered ship and its 34 dead sailors and its 171 wounded and napalmed by Israel’s “finest,” you know, the ones who talk about their “purity of arms” are seriously still afraid, and justly so, that that issue may one day be used to stimulate strong anti-Israel sentiments among the US public.

        Then he tries to make the case that it is the Palestinians themselves who are responsible for the antipathy to them felt by most Americans, ignoring the one-sided barrage directed against them at every level by a Zionist dominated media.

        Re the Liberty, I know from my own experiences in talking about it, and once circulating a home-made flier to everyone attending the dedication of a plaque to San Franciscans who died in Vietnam, that ordinary Americans are not only willing to listen to and read about the story of the Liberty but they are quick to change their sentiments about what they had been told is America’s long time ally. A concerted effort on this issue involving veterans would put the Israel Firsters on the run as well as cause a sudden loosening of their sphincter muscles. Not a pretty sight, I grant you, but one that most of us would appreciate.
        In any case, you’re outed, CK!

      • fuster
        March 2, 2011, 10:42 pm

        Jeffrey, methinks that you’re FOS with that bit of methinking.

      • Donald
        March 2, 2011, 10:49 pm

        CK– It was the same in the days when white Americans were busy stealing land from the Native Americans. Many Native American tribes were in fact brutal to their enemies and committed what we’d now call terrorist attacks and back then whites denounced them as “savages”. Of course the whites committed bigger atrocities and were the aggressors, but somehow that was different–that was civilization fighting savagery. I think cultures probably vary somewhat in how they rationalize their own atrocities as just while denouncing those of their enemies. But Westerners seem to specialize in doing it by expressing shock at the brazen savagery of their enemies, while (as Orwell put it) somehow managing not to notice the similar often larger scale crimes of their own people.

        So yeah, Arab terrorists and ordinary Arabs are on tape celebrating terrorism. But people in their calm rational moments know perfectly well you can catch Americans and Israelis behaving the same way. We treat wars on CNN as video games, as the Israelis treated the Gaza War, setting up chairs to watch the bombing. Plenty of Americans laughed off Abu Ghraib as similar to a fraternity prank. Now it’s true that Israelis and Americans often have the good PR sense to tell big fat lies about what they do. Do you think Hamas would have a better reputation if they told absurd cover stories pretending that their suicide bombing attacks weren’t meant to harm civilians? I don’t think so. If Hamas spokespeople came on American TV and tried the sorts of hypocritical arguments that Americans and Israelis use, it wouldn’t work. They’d be torn apart by American interviewers and ridiculed on editorial pages across the country. Yet rationalizations by Israelis are accepted without much question, and when it turns out that they’ve been lying for decades about major crimes like the Nakba, it never seems to occur to anyone in the US press that cold blooded lying for decades about that event is exactly the sort of thing we treat with scorn and contempt when it is done by one of our enemies.

        I think the main question is how much of this reaction is due to the bigotry of many ordinary Americans and how much of it is due to press bias. Would the views of most Americans change if reporting on human rights was done in an evenhanded fashion (as I think you generally find in Human Rights Watch reports on the I/P conflict)? I think there’d be a huge shift, though some would cling to the image of innocent little Israel fighting off the savage Arab hordes.

      • Shingo
        March 2, 2011, 10:59 pm

        Of course the whites committed bigger atrocities and were the aggressors, but somehow that was different–that was civilization fighting savagery.

        What you have touched on Donald is what goes hand in hand with colonialism and provenance. Chomsky gave a great speech once about how this is one of the more intangible elements that link Israel and the US, the belief that the white people have been ordained by God to rule. Hence, the numbers killed by the rulers is insignificant. After all, can anyone imagine Hamas referring to dead Israeli civilians as collateral damage?

        This is why the media don’t even need to be railroaded into delivering the message. It goes beyond bigotry or press bias. It’s simply ingrained in our psyche. We have been conditioned to focus, lazer like, on the crimes of our enemies, while remaining blissfully unaware of our own . It’s why we have introduced terms like “moral equivalence” into our lexicon.

      • CK MacLeod
        March 2, 2011, 11:04 pm

        PW – in my view, when you’re talking about human beings, every cause is an effect of some other cause, and not much more or less than that until and unless integrated into some kind of philosophy of world history.

        The Israel Lobby would have to be 100% fools not to be conscious of this all and to seek to exploit it, and, since the world is a machine full of moving interrelated parts, it doesn’t make sense to ask where American hearts would be if the Israel Lobby didn’t exist. But, taking the long view on American ideology – and I’m trying hard just to put things in terms of traditional Americanism, what we learn at school, what we all tell each other is reinforced by experience – why would anyone expect Americans not to associate Islamic radicalism with every other kind of radicalism we generally have rejected? There wasn’t really much need to add any “glue.”

      • RoHa
        March 2, 2011, 11:13 pm

        “But people in their calm rational moments know perfectly well you can catch Americans and Israelis behaving the same way. ”

        As psrt of a Presidential election campaign.

      • annie
        March 2, 2011, 11:45 pm

        why would anyone expect Americans not to associate Islamic radicalism with every other kind of radicalism we generally have rejected? There wasn’t really much need to add any “glue.”

        obviously the israel lobby disagrees w/you. they’re all about the glue. it just aint gonna stick over the long haul.

      • DBG
        March 3, 2011, 12:03 am

        Annie,

        9/11 was the glue, it will take at least a generation for it to become unhinged.

      • annie
        March 3, 2011, 12:30 am

        well i sure as hell didn’t get stuck in no 9/11 glue. in your dreams maybe but frankly i don’t think people are listening to your kind. whatever kind of rock it was you crawled out under, go back and enjoy the darkness.

      • Shingo
        March 3, 2011, 12:37 am

        9/11 was the glue, it will take at least a generation for it to become unhinged.

        Right wing Israelis like Bibbi really hoped that 9/11 would be Israel’s insurance and salvation. I suspect that DBG is really hoping upon hope that Americans hang on to that fear, insecurity and hatred it has inspire towards Islam.

      • DBG
        March 3, 2011, 12:42 am

        Hi Annie,

        forgive me, but statements like that make me question your loyalty to the United States. The dual loyalty issue needs to be investigated on all sides of the aisle.

      • annie
        March 3, 2011, 1:21 am

        lol

      • Shingo
        March 3, 2011, 1:44 am

        forgive me, but statements like that make me question your loyalty to the United States

        \

        I take it that was a joke right? Weren’t you celebrating when the US was humiliated by Nentenyahu over the settlements and when they humiliated themselves at the UNSC last week?

      • CK MacLeod
        March 3, 2011, 11:05 am

        Jeffrey Blankfort,

        Your notion that somewhere there’s a constituency awaiting USS LIBERTY TRUTH! and ready to overturn 50 or so years of bipartisan U.S. policy in their shock and anger is kind of amusing, almost as amusing as the notion that it would take a “Zionist-dominated media” to turn a bloody hostage drama at the Olympics, live on TV, into kind of a negative on the “Palestinians->happy face” PR front. Or that dancing in the streets, offering thanks to Osama, and passing out candy on 9/11 required a Zionist conspiracy to piss off the vast majority of Americans, and re-confirm them in inclinations to which they’ve become habituated, according to Gallup, for at least a generation.

        But keep passing out those fliers. Maybe you can get some of those enraged San Franciscans to protest and obstruct the London Olympics, which, we see, have already been declared a Zionist something-or-other by the Iranians. You can demand USS LIBERTY TRUTH! It will be another major Palestinian Solidarity PR coup.

        And I confess: You’re right about my Zionized Trojanism. By the rivers of Babylon, when I sit down, I weep, and remember Priam.

      • CK MacLeod
        March 3, 2011, 11:28 am

        Donald, Donald – how would showing that bigotry and bias originate in bigotry, or maybe bias, advance us from where we began?

        We can speculate about how different reporting might create different perceptions, but why and how would that reporting change unless perceptions had been changed first?

        Say I resist the temptation to defend our forebears from our moral self-superiority, and stipulate that Americanism is a totally self-serving ideology. I think that is a good working definition in a lot of ways – not a complete definition, but to complete it I’d have to do what I just promised I wouldn’t do, sooner or later requiring me to attempt to elaborate a philosophy of history in a blog comment thread.

        So, we’ve reduced Americanism to an ideology of at best amoral, often quite happily atrocious material self-service. To return to the question of the post: To the extent that Palestinians either serve our material purposes or make us feel good about ourselves, we Americans, especially the Trojanated Zionist types like me, will treat them better. We think it would suit them, and we know it would suit us, if they were as selfish and materialistic as we are. We think everyone should be that way. (We think the Israelis are selfish and materialistic, and we like that.)

        If the Palestinians want our affection, or sympathy, they should strive to present themselves as ready to make good democratic capitalist negotiated practical compromises of any and every moral, religious, ethnic, national, or racial value in favor of getting on with greater material prosperity and self-congratulation. They need to “cut their hair and get a job” – which could be what Fayyad is on to, but few Americans are yet aware of him – if they want us to report better numbers to Gallup, and to stop treating them as savages, but instead as good fellow citizens of the democratic capitalist world state of states that are as much like us – because that’s what we like, us – as possible.

        You don’t need a media conspiracy to arrive at that conclusion. All you need is an American media run by Americans and Americanists for Americans and fans of America, seeing themselves and the world as, according to you, Americans always have.

      • Philip Weiss
        March 3, 2011, 11:44 am

        but what about when americanists said, taxation without representation is tyranny, and rejected the fayyad-tom friedman-netanyahu idea of an economic peace? howsoever small a minority of colonial life, they wanted to be selfishly sovereign in their land more than selfishly materialistic, and they not the tories are the heroes in our history books

      • annie
        March 3, 2011, 12:05 pm

        Trojanated Zionist types like me

        lol, or so your avatar would have us believe. ;)

        this is the internet dude, you could be a woody allen look alike for all we know.

      • annie
        March 3, 2011, 12:11 pm

        dbg, here’s your glued hinged in desperate need of unhingling. hardly represents the majority of americans which the lobby is furiously racing to liberal applications of glue thru the msm.

        it’s not gonna fly imho. we’re smarter than that and not preconditioned from birth w/constant fear mongering unlike so much of the israeli public.

      • fuster
        March 3, 2011, 12:11 pm

        annie, you also could be a Woody Allen look-alike.

      • annie
        March 3, 2011, 12:13 pm

        I suspect that DBG is really hoping upon hope that Americans hang on to that fear, insecurity and hatred it has inspire towards Islam.

        for at least a generation shingo! enough time to swallow up the rest of palestine’s prime real estate!

      • annie
        March 3, 2011, 12:15 pm

        yes i could fussy. but i ain’t prancing around pretending to be another helen of troy.

      • annie
        March 3, 2011, 12:17 pm

        ps. i am tiny tho..think sarah silverman w/a dagger.

      • fuster
        March 3, 2011, 12:22 pm

        I’ll think of you as little Annie MacLeod,

        w/o dagger or wielding it half-blindly

      • CK MacLeod
        March 3, 2011, 12:48 pm

        Well, the academic Marxists who believe, of course, that the American revolutionaries were acting out of sheer proto-capitalist self-interest would disagree with your somewhat slightly more idealistic view, PW. My personal view is that it’s not difficult within a complete or more complete definition of Americanism to square material and ideal self-interest – then as now. That more complete definition of Americanism – though it’s still short of a complete philosophy – might include or even turn on the notion that the two forms of self-interest will tend to coincide, as two sides of a coin.

      • IranContraClanDidNineEleven
        March 3, 2011, 1:19 pm

        “and passing out candy on 9/11 required a Zionist conspiracy to piss off the vast majority of Americans”

        You’re actually right on that one, seeing as how the footage shown of the Palestinians on 9/11 was stock video from some time before and little to no mention has been made of these celebratory Middle Easterners:

        link to american-buddha.com

        link to abcnews.go.com

      • CK MacLeod
        March 3, 2011, 1:20 pm

        (btw, I really, really didn’t mean to do a condescending “Donald, Donald” thing thing… it was a comment-editing error error)

      • CK MacLeod
        March 3, 2011, 1:47 pm

        “seeing as how the footage shown of the Palestinians on 9/11 was stock video from some time before”

        link to snopes.com

        Though I hear that snopes.com is run by Zionists. Or maybe it was Trojans. Or horses.

      • IranContraClanDidNineEleven
        March 3, 2011, 2:29 pm

        CK MacLeod,

        link to spiegel.de

        5 Israelis: Sivan Kurzberg, Paul Kurzberg, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari were seen celebrating in Liberty Park as the crime of 9/11 was carried out.

        Old stock footage of dirty Arabs and coaxed children is no substitute for the cold hard facts.

      • CK MacLeod
        March 3, 2011, 3:28 pm

        silly person, I don’t give a flying horse’s patootie about your 5 evil Izzys – who, incidentally, do not appear in the Spiegel article you link – and, as for the “stock footage” claim, if you insist on repeating debunked lunacies even after having been provided with the detailed debunking, then I’m forced to conclude that you’re not arguing in good faith.

        Even the Spiegel article that you yourself refer us to repeats the debunking:

        Schon in der vergangenen Woche fegten aufgeregte Mails zu einem ähnlichen Fall rund um den Erdball. CNN habe zehn Jahre alte Bilder verwendet, um damit den angeblichen Jubel der Palästinenser zu belegen. Ein brasilianischer Student, Marcio, hatte am Mittwoch auf der Website von Indymedia, einer unabhängigen Medienplattform, einen Brief gepostet. Er schrieb, er habe Beweise dafür, dass die Bilder die am 11. September bei dem amerikanischen Nachrichtensender zu sehen waren, gefälscht seien. Das Filmmaterial stamme aus dem Jahr 1991 und zeige Freudenfeiern von palästinensischen Jugendlichen nach dem irakischen Einmarsch in Kuweit. Einer seiner Dozenten habe Videoaufzeichnungen von damals und sie mit den aktuellen Berichten verglichen. Fazit: Beide Bilder seien identisch. CNN mache Stimmung gegen die Palästinenser.

        Nur zwei Tage später, am Freitag, ruderte Marcio zurück. Die Informationen seien nur eine Vermutung gewesen, der Hochschullehrer könne seinen Verdacht nicht beweisen. Doch da war es schon zu spät. Bis heute geistern Mails mit der Fehlinformation durch das Netz, bis heute erhalten viele Redaktionen, auch wir, immer wieder besorgte Hinweise von Lesern. CNN International hat den Vorwurf gegenüber SPIEGEL ONLINE heftig dementiert. Auch Reuters TV, die das Material an CNN geliefert haben, beeilten sich, die Vorwürfe zu entkräften. Sogar auf der Website von Indymedia selbst gab es Zweifel an dem Vorwurf. Ein Leser erklärte, die Bilder könnten gar nicht aus dem Jahr 1991 stammen, weil darauf ein Ford aus einer Baureihe von 1995 zu sehen sei.

        The first half of the article does suggest that the “9/11-loving Palis” story may have been exaggerated, even if the article doesn’t support your lunatic theory regarding stock footage, but, instead, as above clearly debunks it via evidence, among other things, from the original source (which can be found in its original form via the snopes link, and in English). I could buy the exaggeration part. I could even consider it likely. Calling it entirely false would require me to indict the credibility of the reporter, who apparently believed that the celebration he was reporting was in some regard typical of a strain of existent opinion.

        Regarding the main question under discussion here, it’s somewhat irrelevant whether that strain of opinion was predominant in the OT. It wouldn’t greatly affect the argument if the 9/11-celebration factoid was false. It might greatly affect the argument if there was the slightest reason to believe that it was, as you insist, a blatant fabrication, but, as snopes shows and as your own link shows, there is no evidence of that. It was just a guess, a supposition – a Vermutung, subsequently withdrawn by the Vermuter under an avalanche of concrete evidence. It remains one little factoid that Joe Average Non-Silly-Lunatic American puts together with a big ton of generally mutually confirming factoids that he may have assembled and filed away over the years.

        Now, that’s all the attention you’re going to get from me today, and possibly forever, since, in addition to giving all the appearance of being a lunatic conspiracist, you seem to be dishonest, possibly with yourself as well as with the poor honest readers of this blog, and I want no part in any of it.

      • Jeffrey Blankfort
        March 3, 2011, 3:42 pm

        Sorry fuster, that I left you off the list of Israeli Firsters or, I guess in your case, Israeli Fusters. That you think I am FOS for my methinking is further confirmation that I hit the target.

      • Jeffrey Blankfort
        March 3, 2011, 4:47 pm

        It is irrelevant whether or not, the five celebrating Israelis were mentioned in the Spiegel article. They were mentioned by name and identified as Mossad agents working for a Mossad front moving company in the Jewish weekly Forward of March 15, 02.

        What is almost amusing is that the writer of the long article was amazed that such an interesting piece of information–five Mossad agents laughing while filming the burning of the WTC from across the river in New Jersey BEFORE it had been declared a “terrorist act–had been ignored by the mainstream media.

        Now. Mr. MacLeod, which story do you think would have received the attention of the majority of Americans and angered them the most: the story of 5 Israeli spies celebrating the burning of the WTC while filming it, a story that has been authenticated, or the reports, fiction or real, of Palestinians dancing on a roof in Palestine?

        While you’re pondering the best way to answer that, maybe you can explain why you are posting to Mondoweiss? What motivates you to do so? Or, perhaps, better yet, who?

        I ask this not out of simply curioisity but since it has become clear that Mondoweiss has become the “go to” site for activists on this issue and that the Israeli propaganda ministry and its US affiliates have made no secret that they see the internet as a battleground, your relatively recent appaearance on the site and the nature of your arguments leads me to believe their campaign is in full swing and that you might just be one of their warriors, not for Priam but for Zion.

      • CK MacLeod
        March 3, 2011, 6:58 pm

        link to 911myths.com.

        Just got my instructions from my ZOG controller: “Tell him to get his head out of his prisonplanet.”

        Must be code.

      • annie
        March 3, 2011, 7:07 pm

        fox news offers a comprehensive series on israeli spies in the US.

      • Citizen
        April 17, 2012, 12:30 pm

        DBG, I am not aware of any comment Annie has ever made on this blog that would suggest she is uncritical of her own country’s government–a good friend will be critical if they see you making a big mistake, and they will do this in your face. Patriotism is not revealed by loyalty to the state government right or wrong.

      • Citizen
        March 2, 2011, 12:50 pm

        I can hear Bernays chuckling….

  20. Jeffrey Blankfort
    March 2, 2011, 2:19 am

    Negative campaigning, as you describe it, has a history of being more effective than not when professionally pursued, and in the case of Israel we would not be exaggerating the facts but exposing those that have been hidden.

    As for the likelihood that the I-P popularity polling numbers need to be closer, that’s not a realistic goal nor is it necessary. All that is necessary is that the US cease protecting Israel in the international arena and cease providing it with $3 billion in free weaponry every year.

    The former may, in fact, be the most important. If Israel starts being squeezed by the world community, it won’t matter what Americans think of Palestinians. That whole subject is really not relevant.

  21. maximalistNarrative
    March 2, 2011, 2:19 am

    It is clear to me that the vast majority of American’s sympathies lie with Israel for moral / ethical reasons.

    The Zionist revolution is unparalleled in human history. It must be very clearly stated, we have returned to our Land. We will cling to our Land and there we shall stay.

    Thank you for your consideration,

    Max

    • annie
      March 2, 2011, 7:34 am

      It is clear to me that the vast majority of American’s sympathies lie with Israel for moral / ethical reasons.

      i suggest you read harper’s latest article latest article.

      “Unlike other foreign policy issues, Israel has become a domestic American issue. A candidate for office, even in a state such as Nevada, Iowa or Maine with few Jews or Christian fundamentalists, must often stake out a more “pro-Israeli” position than his or her opponent before getting on to even local issues. The strategic funding and political support (or the threat of withdrawing them) of candidates in both parties by AIPAC and the clout of the Christian Right in the Republican Party is matched by the influence of Pentagon defense contractors, who keep members of Congress in line by arguing that any cut in the billions given to Israel and, by extension, to the other countries in the region (totaling some $125 billion over the next decade), will cost jobs in their states and districts. Indeed, Susan Rice’s vote in the Security Council cannot be explained in any way except as a capitulation of vital American interests to “pro-Israel” forces and manufactured perceptions on the part of the Administration and Congress alike.”

    • fuster
      March 3, 2011, 1:59 pm

      max, everything going on in and around Israel is the same old shit with many parallels in human history. probably other primate histories as well.

      the land all belongs to the Jews or the land all belongs to the followers of Islam, god promised it to us, Jews never had a home here it’s always been Arabs. all the same lies, the same stupid shit heard other times and other places.

  22. ahmed
    March 2, 2011, 3:19 am

    Coincidentally, two shows I watch both had subliminal off-the-cuff pro-Israeli comments. On “the Good Wife” as one character says “I come in peace,” the other mutters, “like Yasser Arafat.” the previous week, when that character’s daughter was begging for permission to go to Israel, to a kibbutz, he had responded ” you’ll get killed by a Palestinian version of yourself.”
    And on the other, a family drama, “parenthood,” a father takes on baby-sitting duties with “who wants to play hide and seek Israeli army-style?” I’m not sure what to make of the second one.

    • Philip Weiss
      March 2, 2011, 7:22 am

      anybody got links for this stuff? wow

      • Avi
        March 2, 2011, 8:49 am

        Philip Weiss March 2, 2011 at 7:22 am

        anybody got links for this stuff? wow

        Phil,

        Surely, the above comes as no surprise to you. Right? And I’m not calling you Shirley.

        As an aside, I don’t understand why Zionists in Hollywood and on American TV still harp about Arafat. He’s the one guy who was actually considered “moderate” by Israel and the one who has been dead for a few years now.

        Are Zionists keen on keeping the bogeyman alive?

        Surely, if they wanted a villain, they could have used Khaled Mish’al. But, I suppose he’s not as well-known in the US as Arafat, so they capitalize on Arafat’s name.

      • Philip Weiss
        March 2, 2011, 9:14 am

        its no surprise, but i like to document this collywallop

      • Avi
        March 2, 2011, 9:18 am

        I hear you.

      • tree
        March 2, 2011, 2:32 pm

        anybody got links for this stuff? wow

        If you know what episode it was, you can find it at hulu.com. Plug in the show name into the search function and click on the episode you want.

        In fact I just found the Parenthood clip here:

        link to hulu.com

        The “Israeli-style” comment happens at about 25:50 into it.

      • tree
        March 2, 2011, 2:57 pm

        Here’s The Good Wife episode, “Great Firewall”, with the Yassar Arafat line. Check it at approximately 18:10 into the episode.

        link to cbs.com

      • tree
        March 2, 2011, 3:05 pm

        Here’s The Good Wife from the week before, “Silver Bullet”.

        link to cbs.com

        The Palestinian bomber comment comes right off the top of the episode.

        The comments in both episodes come from the same guy. Maybe he’s supposed to be your “stereotypical Jew”. ‘Cuz we all know that every Jew hates Palestinians, right?…. Idiotic.

      • ahmed
        March 2, 2011, 4:26 pm

        Thanks for adding the links to the videos, I was commenting from my phone, and am not very good at adding links or even cutting and pasting yet!

        The character on “The Good Wife,” Eli Gold wasn’t confirmed as Jewish until the episode last week, 2/22, with his daughter.
        I had high hopes for “The Good Wife” since an early episode showed the politician’s daughter with a copy of Jimmy Carter’s Apartheid book and she has a brief argument with her father about what was happening there.

      • tree
        March 2, 2011, 4:57 pm

        You’re welcome, ahmed. I don’t think I will ever even try to comment from my phone, let alone get good at it. I guess I’ve officially become an old fogey.

      • Shingo
        March 2, 2011, 5:27 pm

        I had high hopes for “The Good Wife” since an early episode showed the politician’s daughter with a copy of Jimmy Carter’s Apartheid book and she has a brief argument with her father about what was happening there.

        You have to remember that the “The Good Wife” is based on the family story of Elliot Spitzer, who’s a shameless Israeli sycophant.

      • Sumud
        March 2, 2011, 9:47 pm

        had high hopes for “The Good Wife” since an early episode showed the politician’s daughter with a copy of Jimmy Carter’s Apartheid book and she has a brief argument with her father about what was happening there.

        ahmed ~ oh good, you have seen it (i mentioned it in a comment below).

        I don’t watch the show but it was commented on here at the time. As repugnant as Alan Cumming’s line was (“do you think I’d be working for XXX if he was pro-Palestinian?”) the daughter’s pro-flotilla position was well articulated. I wonder if there’s a connection between the current anti-Palestinian barbs and that earlier episode?

      • Psychopathic god
        March 2, 2011, 5:47 pm

        Phil — you haven’t seen the NCIS episodes where a “vile Iranian” businessman is killed by automatic weapons fired from a police helicopter, then the investigators say (the equivalent of) good riddance?

        there’s nothing worth turning on the teevee for — everything is zionized.

    • Chu
      March 2, 2011, 3:13 pm

      here’s some more fun:
      link to maxim.com

      She’s an Expert!
      “I ordered a how-to-become-a-bounty-hunter book. I’m also taking Krav Maga [a hand-to-hand combat style used by Israeli special forces], so now I’m like, ‘Oh, this is how to defend yourself if someone’s trying to stab you!’ ”

    • Sumud
      March 2, 2011, 9:38 pm

      ahmed ~ don’t know if you saw it but last October ‘The Good Wife’ had a longer story related to Israel/Palestine. One of the characters (the political candidate) was photographed carrying a copy of Carter’s ‘Peace Not Apartheid’ and was then accused of being “soft on Israel”. At a hastily organised dinner for Yom Kippur (to placate a pro-Israel lobbyist) that character’s daughter complains about Israel’s attack/murders on the Free Gaza Flotilla.

      Don’t know if old episodes are still available @ the CBS web site but it’s downloadable via torrent – search for “The Good Wife S02E03″.

    • Citizen
      April 17, 2012, 12:37 pm

      ahmed, it’s even worse; in satirical adult cartoons such as Family Guy; I just watched an episode where a “Palestinian alarm clock” awoke Peter & Family by bursting the bomb inside it, shattering the whole house to the ground. On the other hand, the same show has always treated anything Jewish positively, e.g., the show where Peter’s wife discovers she has Jewish roots, and another where Peter’s son is sent to Jewish school so he could become smart, etc. No other ethnic group is treated with positive stereotypes.

  23. petersz
    March 2, 2011, 6:11 am

    On the other hand in Europe support for Israel has nosedived amongst ordinary people. The most Zionist country in Europe is probably the Netherlands where Geert Wilders comes from and Islamophia is endemic but otherwise any opinion poll would show the vast majority of people are more sympathetic towards Palestinians than Israelis. In the USA the problem I think is with the mainstream media the fact Al Jazeera is not commonly available and 9/11 turned many Americans against the Arab and Muslim world.

    • annie
      March 2, 2011, 7:53 am

      In the USA the problem I think is with the mainstream media the fact Al Jazeera is not commonly available and 9/11 turned many Americans against the Arab and Muslim world.

      it is not so much AJ being unavailable as it is the constant anti arab/muslim propaganda filtered thru hollywood.i flipped on cbs 10 minutes early last night to watch the good wife and intercepted the end of ncis los angeles. naturally they were going after some terrorists. i heard syria..i just flipped the station. as soon as a show, any show, veers in the direction of a muslim terrorist i flip the station. it’s a constant negative injection into our lives. there was nothing like this when i was growing up. we didn’t have AJ but we also didn’t have muslim bad guys everynight on our screens. it’s gross.

      • DBG
        March 2, 2011, 10:39 pm

        Most Americans, even after nearly ten years, have not forgot 9/11. Unfortunately it is not just 9/11, when Americans turn on the news and see scores dead almost on a daily basis, it doesn’t help the image of Arabs and Muslims.

        This blog and all other pro-Palestinians blogs totally ignore that situation, they ignore what is happening in the Arab world as a whole. Right now is one of the most important times in the ME and you guys are still obsessed with Israel.

        It was released today that over 6000 Libyans have been killed in the last two weeks, but on here and blogs like this, not a peep, you are writing about an article which was denied publishing last Hanukkah.

        Your movement’s obsession with Israel and ignoring of everything else does a huge disservice to the group of people you claim to be so concerned for. I hate to quote the evil zionist Golda Meir, but maybe if you start caring for the Arabs/Muslim/Palestinians etc. more than hate Israel, (and in many cases Jews) something good could happen in the ME.

        Another thing, the war-mongering has becoming intolerably, thinking that the Arab world is going to united against Israel and defeat them militarily is not only sickening, it is delusional. Again wishing for a war against Israel is a disservice to the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors.

      • Shingo
        March 2, 2011, 11:52 pm

        Right now is one of the most important times in the ME and you guys are still obsessed with Israel.

        That’s truly hilarious. While we were all blogging like crazy about the events in Egypts, and what it mant for Egyptians and Arabs, Israeli propagandists like you were bleating from every corner of the room “yeah, what about Israel?” Did you not see Mona Eltahawy pull Desrshowitz apart? While she was expressing her joy, he was blabbering on about the Muslim Brotherhood.

        And then when out gaze returns to Israel/Palestine, you’re bleating “but what about the Arabs?”

        Ziocaine must make you people are collectively bipolar.

        It was released today that over 6000 Libyans have been killed in the last two weeks, but on here and blogs like this, not a peep, you are writing about an article which was denied publishing last Hanukkah.

        You’re a liar. There are at least 4 blog posting about Libya alone in the last 48 hours.

        I hate to quote the evil zionist Golda Meir, but maybe if you start caring for the Arabs/Muslim/Palestinians etc. more than hate Israel, (and in many cases Jews) something good could happen in the ME.

        If you Hasbarats start caring for fellow Jews more than you cared about Zionism, you might have peace.

        Another thing, the war-mongering has becoming intolerably, thinking that the Arab world is going to united against Israel and defeat them militarily is not only sickening, it is delusional.

        Yeah right, Israel is talking about attacking Syria and Lebanon and you’re blaming us for being sick?
        link to presstv.ir

        Is this Arab revolution making your Hasbarats lose your minds or are you simply going insane?

      • annie
        March 3, 2011, 12:29 am

        Ziocaine must make you people are collectively bipolar.

        or tripolar..

        they’re trigger happy and they’re crazy,
        think about that when you’re putting huggies nappies on your baby

      • DBG
        March 3, 2011, 12:44 am

        Wow, you just linked to presstv.

      • IranContraClanDidNineEleven
        March 3, 2011, 1:11 am

        “Most Americans, even after nearly ten years, have not forgot 9/11. Unfortunately it is not just 9/11, when Americans turn on the news and see scores dead almost on a daily basis, it doesn’t help the image of Arabs and Muslims.”

        LOL
        link to haaretz.com

        Those Ay-rabs really covered their tracks well haha. A hard rain’s gonna fall when American citizens realize who actually did 9/11.

      • Shingo
        March 3, 2011, 1:42 am

        Yeah how about that!

        Are you as racist about Al Jazeera?

      • Citizen
        April 17, 2012, 12:49 pm

        DBG, exercising standard hasbara trick of pointing elsewhere. Then he adds his own compound: we here on MW are wishing for a war against Israel. No, we R saying it’s not good for US or Israel long term for the US to devote its entire diplomacy, the most significant chunk of it foreign aid cash and loan underwriting, and the life of its soldiers (made more vulnerable) to enable Israel’s on-going land grabbing and oppression of an entire native people & Israel’s continued nuclear-tipped hegemony of the most important geo-strategic area of the world, the ME.

    • wondering jew
      March 2, 2011, 6:18 pm

      petersz,
      Do you have any links to European polls on this subject?

      • petersz
        March 3, 2011, 3:47 pm

        Take a look of this poll taken in 2006 in Spain and the USA about the time of the Second Lebanon War in this article on this link:-
        link to economist.com
        It found 48% of Americans supported Israel as against 13% for Palestinians.
        In Spain however only 9% sympathised with the Israelis and 32% with the Palestinians almost the reverse as it is in the USA. A similar poll would likely yield a similar result in most other European countries such as France, Italy, UK etc. And note this is BEFORE Cast Lead and before the Flotilla incident and before the European Parliament(admittedly a fairly toothless organisation) voted to endorse the Goldstone Report unlike the US Congress.

  24. Theo
    March 2, 2011, 8:56 am

    To manipulate an opinion pol is the easiest in the world, you just have to phrase the questions so you get the answer you want.

    “Are you against terrorists killing israeli children?” YES
    “Does Israel have the right to defend itself?” YES

  25. MHughes976
    March 2, 2011, 9:02 am

    The University of Maryland does World Opinion Surveys and one of these addressed the ME problem in 08, showing substantial majorities in all Western countries, United States included, ‘against taking sides’ in the conflict. Which shows how much depends on the question you ask, and that Mearsheimer and Walt were essentially right in assessing support for Israel as very broad but quite shallow.
    It’s hard to deny that people want a quiet life, would prefer the ‘Arabs’ to sell us their oil cheaply and not make a fuss. Also there is no doubt that the Israeli claims in Leon Uris style about Holocaust and Exodus still strike an audible moral note, the same over decades, more especially in more religious constituencies. Those of us who explicitly disagree with these claims are distinctly a minority. I don’t think we need polls to tell us that we are a minority – if we weren’t, the politics of our countries would be very different. There wouldn’t have been the Obama Veto at the UN, there wouldn’t have been Merkel’s fawning visit to Israel a few years ago. The Harpers article cited by annie is surely right in saying that big efforts go into manufacturing further support for the Uris-style ideology, which is also the official ideology of our governments, and we don’t have the same manufacturing capacity. But again we hardly need polls to tell us, though I think they do tell us, that many people must be harbouring many doubts about the official creed. So, slipping from polls to poetry, ‘say not the struggle naught availeth’.

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