Juliano Mer-Khamis is killed in West Bank

Israel/Palestine
on 195 Comments

Juliano Mer-Khamis’s film Arna’s Children

This is terrible news. Juliano Mer-Khamis, the founder of the Jenin Freedom Theatre, director of Arna’s Children, and a beloved friend of many people close to this site, was killed in Jenin today. Mer-Khamis was a 53-year-old Israeli whose parents were Palestinian and Jewish; he struggled to give children under occupation a creative outlet and alternative to violent resistance. His theater was destroyed by the Israelis in 2002, and he rebuilt it with international support.

The AP report quotes a Palestinian police chief putting the crime on Palestinian militants. Haaretz says they were masked.

Dimi Reider:

There will be so much said. I would just like to share this memory. It’s seven years ago, 2003. The Student Coalition at Tel Aviv University, an organization I co-founded, is staging a massive teach-out on the university square, trying to disrupt the normalcy of dozy lectures as the streets was burning.

At the end of a long, long day with lectures and arguments and songs and chants, as darkness fell on plush northern Tel Aviv, we screened Juliano’s film, “Arna’s children” – still, to my mind, the best documentary ever done about the occupation. We, some five hundred students sat in the outdoor auditorium, stunned. Before us, the “Palestinian gunmen” of the newscasts we knew since childhood – these footnotes in the reports, usually afforded no visuals, just “three Palestinian gunmen were shot in the West Bank today, IDF spokesman said. In other news…” – were coming to life as human beings, speaking about their childhood dreams, their slain comrades, their hopes or lack thereof for a future, sometimes as children, sometimes as grown, gun-wielding men, with children just like they used to be clustered around their knees. After the credits rolled and passed, the plaza was completely silent. One girl, a moderate centre-leftist from the campus chapter of Meretz, raised her hand. Juliano called her out. She got up and asked: “What can we do to help?”

This was the most humanizing, wall-shattering moment of my life.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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195 Responses

  1. Richard Witty
    April 4, 2011, 10:49 am

    A tragedy. Thanks for informing us of his life and this tragedy.

  2. annie
    April 4, 2011, 10:59 am

    this is horrible news. why? why? omg this is tragic.

    • annie
      April 4, 2011, 3:55 pm

      didi has added an update to his post

      Update I: There appear to be conflicting reports as to how exactly the murder was carried out. One report said Juliano’s car was riddled with bullets from five gunmen as he was driving into the camp. Another said he was gunned down as he walked out of the theatre; a man called his name, and when Juliano began walking toward him, opened fire from a handgun, shooting Juliano five times in the chest. Either way, it appears his son was in Juliano’s car and witnessed his assassination. Juliano is also survived by a daughter, and his wife is pregnant with twins.

      Update II: A spontaneous protest against the murder is now taking place on Al-Manar square, Ramallah.

  3. clenchner
    April 4, 2011, 11:09 am

    This is so awful. What can we do?

  4. Kathleen
    April 4, 2011, 11:11 am

    Tragic tragic and tragic

    link to cultureunplugged.com

  5. Kate
    April 4, 2011, 11:13 am

    See his documentary ‘Arna’s Children’ here:

  6. Avi
    April 4, 2011, 11:19 am

    This is tragic on several levels. My heart goes out to his family, friends and the children with whom he worked and whom he loved.

    May you rest in peace, Mr. Khamis.

    ===================

    Ha-Aretz, less than an hour ago:

    In 2006, Mer-Khamis opened the Freedom Theater in Jenin, along with Zakariya Zubeidi, the former military leader of the Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades in that West Bank city.

    This senseless act defies logic. I certainly do not understand why any Palestinian would seek to harm Mr. Khamis given his contribution to Palestinian society and given his partnership with Zakariya Zubeidi.

    Hopefully the Palestinian Authority will find the perpetrators and bring them to justice.

  7. Potsherd2
    April 4, 2011, 11:20 am

    “No good deed goes unpunished.”

    • annie
      April 4, 2011, 3:50 pm

      it appears the offending comment has been deleted. i just thought i would make that point in case anyone thought avi was referencing potsherd. enough said.

      • Potsherd2
        April 4, 2011, 7:44 pm

        Ah, THAT offending comment. That commenter should be banned.

  8. Avi
    April 4, 2011, 11:30 am

    Your comment is inappropriate, certainly for this thread. Phil, Adam, please consider deleting it.

    • clenchner
      April 4, 2011, 12:22 pm

      +1 to Avi.

    • jon s
      April 4, 2011, 2:49 pm

      For once I agree with Avi.

      Stunned by the murder of Juliano…a true hero of peace.

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 5:24 pm

        And then immediately you follow that up by accusing Random Scary Arabs as the culprits, down the thread.

        Funny how you only care about this man now that he isn’t acting in a way that hurts the very Israeli notion that Jews can’t live amongst the “common people.” And now you and eee are descending on the man’s corpse like vultures.

  9. Kathleen
    April 4, 2011, 11:39 am

    “Jenin police chief Mohammed Tayyim said Mer-Khamis was shot five times by masked Palestinian militants, but that Israeli security forces were still investigating the circumstances of his murder.”

    What the hell. That is telling that this police chief is so quick to say who these masked murderers are

    • Potsherd2
      April 4, 2011, 12:37 pm

      This murder took place in Jenin. Why are Israeli security forces investigating it?

      • jon s
        April 4, 2011, 2:53 pm

        Because Juliano was an Israeli citizen, murdered in the territories. Palestinian security forces are also investigating.

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 5:22 pm

        Do Palestinians get to investigate in Israel if a Palestinian is killed there? Do tell.

    • Cliff
      April 4, 2011, 1:05 pm

      how does someone know they were masked Palestinians? if they were um, masked?

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 2:06 pm

        Haven’t you been listening? Zionist always assume that anyone who kills someone with a Jewish background is Palestinian. Or Arab. You know, Zionists seem to use those terms interchangeably whenever they need to summon the “scary colored person” bogeyman.

      • DBG
        April 4, 2011, 2:34 pm

        Do you guys ever get sick of playing this game, and losing? basically everyone killed in Israel or Palestine you try to blame on someone else. The truth then comes out and after that you say oh man must be the zionist controlled media again. I mean seriously, the Palestinians do commit crimes, they aren’t all zionist/mossad/adf/shin bet conspiracies.

        I’ve heard Chaos blame the Itamar murder on a Thai person, when Itamar doesn’t have foreign workers, the mossad for firing rockets into Israel from gaza, the Mossad blowing up a bus in Jerusalem, and now they killed Mr. Khamis. Do you guys ever get sick of the deception tactics?

      • annie
        April 4, 2011, 3:12 pm

        I’ve heard Chaos blame the Itamar murder on a Thai person, when Itamar doesn’t have foreign workers

        source?

      • DBG
        April 4, 2011, 3:32 pm

        Jesus annie, find it out yourself. your source nonsense is getting ridiculous.

      • Woody Tanaka
        April 4, 2011, 3:39 pm

        “I’ve heard Chaos blame the Itamar murder on a Thai person, when Itamar doesn’t have foreign workers, the mossad for firing rockets into Israel from gaza, the Mossad blowing up a bus in Jerusalem, and now they killed Mr. Khamis. Do you guys ever get sick of the deception tactics?”

        So you can name for us the individuals that committed these acts and can establish that they were not done at the behest of Israel or its agencies? Please provide that information.

      • annie
        April 4, 2011, 4:14 pm

        believe me i’ve looked dbg. i’ve read the jpost report regarding the allegations made by ma’an news about the idf questioning thai workers. nothing about Itamar not employing foreign workers nor did they offer a denial from the idf (easy enough). in fact directly after ma’an article a gag order was imposed so i don’t know where you read this. in fact this is the first i’ve heard that allegation, ever. i think it is you and your unsourced allegations that are getting ridiculous. don’t think you can keep sliding in these allegations and not be called to source them.

        sorry for the thread disruption i just couldn’t let another of your unsourced allegations go unremarked.

      • Sumud
        April 4, 2011, 5:14 pm

        Do you guys ever get sick of playing this game, and losing? basically everyone killed in Israel or Palestine you try to blame on someone else.

        Straw man DBG.

        I’ve heard Chaos blame the Itamar murder on a Thai person, when Itamar doesn’t have foreign workers, the mossad for firing rockets into Israel from gaza, the Mossad blowing up a bus in Jerusalem, and now they killed Mr. Khamis. Do you guys ever get sick of the deception tactics?

        The problem is two-fold DBG: the Mossad have a history of false flag attacks, and Palestinian militants have a history of claiming “operations” like bombings and killings. The recent spate of unclaimed activity is unusual and suggests that either: Palestinian militants have adopted a new tactic of silence after an operation; or that Palestinian militants aren’t responsible.

        Until some of these unsolved crimes start to be solved we can’t know which it is.

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 5:20 pm

        Thank you, annie.

      • Sumud
        April 4, 2011, 5:21 pm

        Jesus annie, find it out yourself. your source nonsense is getting ridiculous.

        That’s how we roll DBG. If you’re going to make accusations, have the courtesy to back them up.

        If you scroll up just a little and actually read what Chaos said he didn’t mention Mossad, but noted the trend of assuming that when an Israeli is killed a Palestinian is responsible.

      • Potsherd2
        April 4, 2011, 7:45 pm

        If Itamar doesn’t have foreign workers, who were the foreign workers rounded up for questioning?

      • Michael W.
        April 4, 2011, 8:21 pm

        They must have been figments of your imagination.

      • DBG
        April 5, 2011, 12:24 pm

        This is interesting:

        link to elderofziyon.blogspot.com

      • Chaos4700
        April 5, 2011, 12:42 pm

        On Saturday night, I had the opportunity to interview the mayor of Itamar, Moshe Goldsmith, and his wife Leah, as they were fundraising for additional security and infrastructure for their community.

        Nope, no conflict of interest there.

      • jon s
        April 4, 2011, 2:57 pm

        Do you think they were masked Norwegians?

      • Woody Tanaka
        April 4, 2011, 3:40 pm

        “Do you think they were masked Norwegians?”

        Can you prove that they weren’t masked Jews?

      • annie
        April 4, 2011, 4:17 pm

        we are not supposed to notice the racism imposed on the assumption a masked murderer(s) is obviouslya palestinian when the goi operates israeli assassination squads in a region virtually flooded w/violent settlers, so jon is making a little joke to deflect away from that embedded racism i presume.

      • eee
        April 4, 2011, 4:34 pm

        Annie,

        Really, is it racist to assume that 5 masked men with guns at the entrance of the Jenin refugee camp shooting an Israeli are Palestinians?

        I guess it is just as racist to assume that it is Palestinians shooting rockets at Israel from Gaza until they are caught.

        Let me tell you a few more “racist” things. There is a segment of Palestinian society that does not differentiate between a “good Jew” and a “bad Jew”. These people are antisemitic and would have murdered any Jew that was an easy target, just as Juliano was.

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 5:19 pm

        Really, is it racist to assume that 5 masked men with guns at the entrance of the Jenin refugee camp shooting an Israeli are Palestinians?

        You’re asking us if it’s racist to assume that five men who killed a Jewish Israeli who had been labeled a “race traitor” by Israelis, who were masked so no one could identify them, must have been Palestinian because there was no one else nearby with guns and a motive? Like, say, massive settlements full of pogrom-waging settlers? Or an IDF escort guarding Israeli intel agents?

      • Lydda Four Eight
        April 4, 2011, 6:23 pm

        let me tell you a racist thing eee there are entire systems and policies of racism within Israel from the airport to housing to marriage that does not differentiate between a “Palestinian” and a “terrorist”. These people are anti-semitic and harass people like me, even creating wars and killing hundreds at a time, they are ideologically, politically and religiously motivated …

        please enough with the fear mongering I personally know Jews that have lived in Gaza and Ramallah and were NOT killed, in fact have published their experiences and stories.

        it really is so troubling to you that Mondoweiss exists and that there are Jews who dare to speak out against atrocities done in their name.

    • Sumud
      April 4, 2011, 2:05 pm

      That is telling that this police chief is so quick to say who these masked murderers are

      Kathleen ~ There’s a discrepancy between how the AP are reporting what Tayyim said (“one or more militants”) and how Haaretz are reporting it (“Palestinian militants”).

  10. GuiltyFeat
    April 4, 2011, 11:40 am

    @rachelgolem – תתביישי

    You should be ashamed of yourself rushing to score meaningless points on the back of a tragedy.

    I have no words for you except תתביישי.

    • Chaos4700
      April 4, 2011, 12:30 pm

      Ha! That’s cute. We’ll remember that the next time you use a rocket randomly hitting an empty classroom as an excuse to kill 350 Palestinian children with precision-guided bombs like you did in 2008.

  11. Kathleen
    April 4, 2011, 11:40 am

    And that was huge

  12. Ofer Neiman
    April 4, 2011, 11:48 am

    Golem, nice to have you here with your venom.

    Israelis (Zionist Jews, more precisely) murder *Palestinians* (women and children and the elderly included) to get even with other Jews (those damn lefties), or just to achieve political targets.

    From the 1st Lebanon war , through Asher Weisgan (2005) , to the current “Price Tag” policy.

    And Juliano was both Jewish and Palestinian, but you are not expected to fathom such complexities.

  13. seafoid
    April 4, 2011, 12:13 pm

    Cough *Altalena *Cough

    • Lydda Four Eight
      April 4, 2011, 6:27 pm

      *cough* Jesus *cough*

      • wondering jew
        April 4, 2011, 7:20 pm

        Lydda Four Eight- Maybe not in your circles, but blaming Jews (not Zionists, but Jews) for the death of Jesus is considered Jew hatred or anti Semitic in most western circles.

      • Lydda Four Eight
        April 5, 2011, 2:09 am

        A. I am not blaming Jews for killing Jesus. I am not anti-semitic.
        B. In response to eee’s now deleted comment I was just pointing out a pretty well known example where the establishment of religious leaders, in this case chief Jewish priests and teachers of the law, condemned an innocent Jew to death.
        John 19:6-11
        6 Therefore, when the chief priests and officers saw Him, they cried out, saying, “Crucify Him, crucify Him!”
        Pilate said to them, “You take Him and crucify Him, for I find no fault in Him.”
        7 The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and according to our[a] law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God.”
        8 Therefore, when Pilate heard that saying, he was the more afraid, 9 and went again into the Praetorium, and said to Jesus, “Where are You from?” But Jesus gave him no answer.
        10 Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?”
        11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

        C. pointing out that members of the Jewish establishment condemned Jesus to death is not the same as blaming Jews in general for the death of Jesus. (which consequently is parallel to Khamis’ death if it turns out that Palestinian militants were behind Khamis’ death it is not as if the actions of a few represent or speak on behalf of the whole)

        D. Christian theology establishes that Jesus died so that we might live. Again, no one is blaming Jews. If anyone is deserving of condemnation for Jesus’ death according to Christian theology it is our sin.
        Isaiah 53:5, 10
        But he was pierced for our transgressions,
        he was crushed for our iniquities;
        the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
        and by his wounds we are healed …
        Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
        and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin,
        he will see his offspring and prolong his days,

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 8:23 am

        Lydda Forty Eight- A person can make anti semitic comments without being antisemitic. The book of John is the most antisemitic of the four gospels, quoting from it does not exonerate you or your comment from antisemitism. Usually Israel haters on this site limit their hatred to Israel rather than widening it to the Jewish establishment throughout the generations, your quoting the book of John is a breakthrough of sorts, equating your hatred of Israel with the hatred of the Jewish establishment. If you wish to turn this site into a Jew hating web site apparently the gatekeepers of the comments section have no objection. I do not wish to get into a discussion of why Jesus died and who was to blame. I suggest you take your hatred of the killers of Jesus stuff to some other web site. And I suggest that the gatekeepers of this web site drink some coffee and wake up to what they are allowing on this web site.

      • Shmuel
        April 5, 2011, 8:56 am

        You’re being over-sensitive, WJ. The claim (now removed by the moderators) was that Jews don’t kill Jews. The Altalena was mentioned, Rabin (by the deleted commenter herself), De Haan and maybe others. What is wrong with bringing up Jesus (historicity aside)? There is a world of difference between claiming that Jews killed Jesus (or as good as killed him – handing him over to be killed) and claiming that all Jews are responsible for the death of Christ. Lydda ’48 claimed the former, not the latter.

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 10:32 am

        Shmuel- Yes, of course, overly sensitive. Let Lydda 48 think she is saying nothing offensive. While we’re at it, let’s resurrect Father Coughlin and invite him to participate in this blog.

        No, I think we should keep Jesus (the person, rather than the expletive) off this blog. and Yes, I think I am overly sensitive, maybe Christian hatred of Jews is not enough to justify creating a state but guess what, it is enough to justify being overly sensitive. And I do think that Lydda 48 needs to realize that she is stepping on toes and that quoting that jew hater book John does not let her off the hook.

      • Shmuel
        April 5, 2011, 10:45 am

        Father Coughlin? What are you on about, WJ? You are reading way too much into this. While you’re at it, any other religious figures or books of Scripture you’d like to ban? If your toes are getting stepped on, it is only because you are putting them where they don’t belong.

        Anti-Semitism is a serious business. You make a mockery of it when you find it in the slightest mention of Christ and a narrative quote from a book of the Gospels. Pay attention to context (“Jews don’t kill Jews”, “Rabin”, “Altalena”, “De Haan”) and get a sense of proportion please.

      • Avi
        April 5, 2011, 10:57 am

        wondering jew April 5, 2011 at 10:32 am

        Your priorities are truly bizarre.

        Palestinians have put up with Israel’s abuses for more than 60 years and they could very well face those abuses for another 60 years.

        Yet, what is really bothering you is whether Jews lobbied and pressured the Romans to kill Jesus or not — 2000 years ago.

        So, let’s just say that Jews hammered the nails into Jesus’s palms as he was being put on the cross so we can get it out of the way, lest that debate drag on for another 2000 years.

        Happy?

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 10:58 am

        Shmuel- If you like the book of John, go right ahead. Lydda 48 thinks that her statement is as innocent as mentioning Rabin, DeHaan and Altalena. Those were all Zionist killings. None of those were used as an excuse for hundreds of years to kill Jews. If Lydda 48 is Christian and Palestinian, she should realize that the Christian portion of her identity IS responsible for the killing of Jews. And she should learn to leave the killing of Jesus off of this blog.

      • DBG
        April 5, 2011, 11:06 am

        Avi, do you know how many Jews have been killed because of this? This is why WJ is so up in arms about it. The fact that you and Shmuel are going out of your way to defend the most vial instance of antisemitism on this blog, is absolutely disgusting.

        Morally bankrupt is an understatement.

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 11:08 am

        Avi- You have your priorities, which include in other comments, some pretty drastic personal stuff, I have mine.

      • Woody Tanaka
        April 5, 2011, 11:09 am

        “If Lydda 48 is Christian and Palestinian, she should realize that the Christian portion of her identity IS responsible for the killing of Jews.”

        That’s garbage. Only the individuals who committed those crimes are responsible for them; it is nothing but bigotry to say that that invidual responsibility can be somehow imposed upon someone else simply because they share a religion. In no way is Lydda48, or even “the Christian portion of her identity” (whatever *that* is even supposed to mean), responsible for anything but that which Lydda 48, herself, committed.

      • Shmuel
        April 5, 2011, 11:29 am

        WJ,

        Actually, I do like the book of John (although not my favourite Gospel), which I studied at Hebrew University. As with Tanakh, Talmud, Qur’an, etc., everything must be taken in context and anachronisms avoided.

        This really is a bizarre discussion. There is absolutely nothing anti-Semitic about saying that the Jew Jesus was killed by other Jews (whether historically or fictionally) – or citing the story, as told in the NT. The basis for Christian anti-Semitism was not that Jesus was killed by Jews, but that responsibility for his death lay with all Jews for all times (as opposed to those directly responsible – see Matt. 27:25).

        Your preaching to Lydda ’48 that – “if … Christian and Palestinian, she should realize that the Christian portion of her identity IS responsible for the killing of Jews”, on the other hand, is truly outrageous and offensive.

      • annie
        April 5, 2011, 11:40 am

        I think we should keep Jesus (the person, rather than the expletive) off this blog. and Yes, I think I am overly sensitive, maybe Christian hatred of Jews is not enough to justify creating a state but guess what, it is enough to justify being overly sensitive. And I do think that Lydda 48 needs to realize that she is stepping on toes and that quoting that jew hater book John does not let her off the hook.

        you’re sounding like a nut wj. lydda is not on a hook, you just imagine your ‘logic’ has snagged her. you’re all busy making assumptions about what things mean.

        relax.

      • Shmuel
        April 5, 2011, 11:57 am

        DBG,

        Lydda 48’s was a reasonable and innocent comment. Not every mention of Jews and the Crucifixion is an ode to Torquemada or an allusion to pre Nostra Aetate Catholic theology.

        You can put your indignation away now.

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 12:15 pm

        Let me clarify- Number one: I didn’t bring up the topic of the killing of Jesus, Lydda 48 did. I didn’t bring up the book of John, Lydda 48 did.

        Shmuel- If you think the book of John is such an innocent book, whereas all the others refer to the Pharisees as the guilty party and the book of John refers to “the Jews” maybe you need to read it again. There is much wisdom in the four gospels that I have read, but very little of it is found in the account of the killing of Jesus, but rather in the words that he spoke before he was handed over to the Romans. Mort Sahl once said “the essence of Jesus is not the crucifixion…” and I was hoping he would say “but rather the life he lived before he was crucified”, unfortunately he finished his statement “but the resurrection”.

        If you think that taking the topic from Rabin, Altalena and DeHaan that deals specifically with murders/crimes committed by Zionists and taking it back 2000 years to Caiaphas and Judas handing over Jesus, is an innocuous one, you are wrong, just plain wrong.

        I think that all people from different religions need to deal with the history of their religions. I need to deal with the verses in Deuteronomy commanding the wiping out of Amalek and the acts of Joshua and his genocides and also the words of the rabbis and their attitudes towards pagans and nonJews. Because of the current violence being inflicted by Jewish Zionists on the Palestinian people it is more urgent that I deal with this history than it is for others to deal with their history, but the fact is that there is “some” violence coming from Christian Palestinians and Christians egging Palestinians on in this day and age, and it is also important that Christians deal with their history as well, so that they can separate between secularly sanctioned violence against the oppressor and whatever religious violence is encouraged by their tradition.

        Any Christian has to deal with the history of that which was done in the name of Jesus or the Bible. They can say that the perpetrators thought they were acting in Jesus’s name, but in fact were performing devilish acts. They can say that the death of Jesus was for the purpose of forgiving sins and various other explanations some of which Lydda 48 explained in her reaction to my reaction.

        I believe that European Christians of good conscience have begun to deal with the bloodshed done in Christianity’s name, much moreso than Christians of other regions including Palestine, where I have not sensed any questioning of the blood that was shed in the name of their religion. Lydda 48 is not personally guilty because she is Christian (and I was wrong in saying that), but she has to deal with that aspect of the Christian history. A flippant referral to Jesus in the context of Rabin, Altalena and DeHaan, reflects a lack of self reflection on this question.

      • Shmuel
        April 5, 2011, 12:41 pm

        WJ,

        I never said the book of John was innocent. It is indeed filled with anti-Jewish rhetoric (hardly absent from the other Gospels), but that is not what Lydda ’48 cited. Would it have been better if she had cited the story from Matthew (with that bit about “his blood be on us and on our children”)?

        The original comment (since deleted) was not about Zionist Jews not killing Jews; it was about Jews not killing Jews – implying the superiority of civilised Jewish culture over barbaric Palestinian culture (which is why it was deleted). I might have cited Gedaliah son of Ahikam (see Jeremiah 40-41; often evoked in the context of Rabin’s assassination BTW), but Jesus is somewhat more of a household name than Gedaliah, wouldn’t you say?

        Your preaching to Lydda ’48 about what she should or should not recognise in her own religion (assuming she is a Christian) was offensive, as was your assertion that she is somehow more “suspect” as a Palestinian. You may do your own religious/cultural introspection, but I’m guessing you don’t like it when other people feel compelled to tell you to do so.

      • Lydda Four Eight
        April 5, 2011, 1:04 pm

        “Usually Israel haters on this site limit their hatred to Israel rather than widening it to the Jewish establishment throughout the generations …”

        A. I don’t hate Israel
        B. and I am not “widening [imagined hatred you're trying to impose on me] to the Jewish establishment throughout the generations …”
        C. I am NOT trying to turn this website into a Jew hating website, that claim is just ridiculous.
        D. I sincerely didn’t realize that Jesus was such a HOT topic. Ghandi was greatly informed by Jesus and I think Jesus’ teaching on loving your neighbor and enemy can greatly inform the issues we discuss here as well.
        E. If WJ the kind of ethnic and religious intolerance as WJ displays toward me if that is the kind of bigotry that is nurtured here by Muslims, Jews, Christians it is useless to imagine any kind of future together (fwiw I don’t see this here, I see people who are critical of political zionism). If I am not free to believe in the Jew Jesus, who teaches Love of neighbor and enemy, here on mondoweiss then how can we imagine Israel-Palestine living together in peace?
        F. Wondering Jew and any others that may have been offended please understand that was not my motive to hurt.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2011, 1:06 pm

        “Maybe not in your circles, but blaming Jews (not Zionists, but Jews) for the death of Jesus is considered Jew hatred or anti Semitic in most western circles.”

        And so what happens to anti-Semites? Do they explode? Die of guilt? Apparently, the only way to avoid this horrible fate is to profess an unquestioning love for all things Jewish, especially Israel?
        Listen, Wondering Jew, I have met people who don’t even eat bagels and they seem to appear quite hale and healthy!

        It’s the amazing naivete of Zionism which gets me; ‘I’m warning you, you are verging on anti-Semitism’! Ah, there may be, as the song says “power in the blood” but is it anything compared to the power of anti-Semitism inferences!

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2011, 1:10 pm

        . “I am not anti-semitic.”

        You lose! Look could I help you if I tell you that I a Jew, would never say that unless my life depended on it .(I have an absurd attachment to it, which will probably kill me)
        Never say that, there’s no need to demean yourself.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2011, 1:14 pm

        “Lydda Forty Eight- A person can make anti semitic comments without being antisemitic.”

        So, of course, we should all depend on Wondering Jews interpretations of our speech!
        Do you see what I mean, Lydda? When you play this kind of game with Wondering Jew, it’s a fixed game, a mug’s game. Don’t fall for it.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2011, 1:19 pm

        “You’re being over-sensitive, WJ.”

        Seems to be his stock-in-trade, if you ask me.

        And don’t forget, WJ feels it is in huis interest to increase anti-Semitism, to justify Israeli intransigence, so he’s gonna find it everywhere, and if he can’t, create it.

        Believe me, Zionists have no fear of anti-Semitism, they relish it, it’s the grist their dark satanic mills grind into Zionism. Which really ought to show you something.

        When is somebody gonna call their bluff?

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 1:21 pm

        The original statement that Jews don’t kill Jews was indeed stupid. But bringing up the topic of the killing of Jesus, just because he is a household name is also quite insensitive. I see from Lydda’s comment, that she was not aware of the sensitivities. But you obviously are. Maybe because you live in the shadow of the (admittedly empty) churches of Italy, you have become inured to the Christ killer accusations that have been tossed at our people (oh i forgot, we’re not a people, um our religious brethren). But guess what, not all of us have been inured to the facts of the hatred that has been tossed the way of my fellow stamp collectors.

        (I wouldn’t mention where you live, but you feel free to mention where I live, so it’s okay, I guess.)

        On this web site the duty to be conscious of the verses and traditions of hatred of Judaism are tossed at Jews all the time. I take offense. But I also dismiss it with a “so it goes”.

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 1:22 pm

        Mooser- When you remove the humor from your comments, they are just so much styrofoam.

      • Lydda Four Eight
        April 5, 2011, 1:24 pm

        Hi WJ, upon reading your comments I now understand and see the offending remarks in the book of John. Thank you for making me more sensitive to that. I am going to keep my eyes out as to why it is translated in that way, “The Jews …”. I very much agree with you that is offensive in the same way my Egyptian friends feel offended in the stories that point the finger at “the Egyptians”.

        In the future I would appreciate it if you would point out offending statements rather than assume I am trying to turn mondoweiss into an anti-semitic website.

        Thank you again for being patient and taking the time to help me understand. And yes I am a Palestinian Christian baptized in a church in Palestine from 200 AD. We have at least 20 generations of history in Jerusalem who knows maybe we were even historically Jews :)

        Peace and blessings to you :)

      • Potsherd2
        April 5, 2011, 1:26 pm

        Let’s not say that because it wasn’t Jews, it was the Romans.

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 1:35 pm

        Lydda 48- I’m sorry you didn’t realize that the murder of Jesus was used to justify the killing of Jews for quite some time. Mentioning the murder of Jesus is fraught with enough craters and potholes to make the man in the moon look like a smooth skinned fellow.

        The Christian religion contains some beautiful things and some mediocre things and some horrible things. Beautiful things- “love of neighbor” and many of Jesus’ parables. Mediocre things- Belief in the identity of the son with the father. Horrible things- various verses blaming the Jews for Jesus’s death and the inference that the only way that God will hear the prayers of people is when they pray through the middleman of Jesus.

        You are free to believe in the Jew Jesus and if you are indeed inspired by his dictum of “love thy neighbor” and “love thy enemy”, I salute you for that. If you don’t see the negativity of certain verses in the new testament, then I hope you will read it again from “the other” point of view, and may god open your eyes to the damage that has been done in the name of the Christian religion.

        I believe that you did not mean to hurt and I’m sorry that my reaction was overwrought and fraught with history.

        Malcolm X once said that in order to resolve the differences between whites and blacks it would first be necessary to put all the issues on the table and only after such honesty would it be possible to resolve the differences. But Malcolm was cool, calm and collected and in my responses to your original “cough, Jesus, cough” I was not cool, calm and collected and I apologize for my fevered responses.

      • annie
        April 5, 2011, 1:39 pm

        you have become inured to the Christ killer accusations that have been tossed at our people

        please excuse me for interrupting this lesson on anti semitism (#1,837,456). while accusing all jews of killing christ is deplorable i was a little befuddled by the idea of not mentioning jesus on this site. i’m a secular person and have not read the bible so maybe you could clear something up for me. who killed jesus?

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2011, 1:51 pm

        “When you remove the humor from your comments, they are just so much styrofoam.

        Why on earth would anybody, except a Zionist like you, a settler, want to remove the humor from my comments? You want all the land, you want immunity, impunity, and nobody else can have a joke, either?
        Have you ever considered the fact that I might be an anti-Semite, a Jew-hater, or even a self-hater? If I were you, I would give that long consideration, and come to some kind of conclusion about it. Talk it over with your relatives and friends, and get back to me. I’ll take your word for it, you being an expert on the subject.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2011, 1:53 pm

        “The Christian religion contains some beautiful things and some mediocre things and some horrible things.”

        Well, thanks for the first part of the sentence, anyway. I’m sure Christendom will breath one great ecumenical sigh of relief at being off the hook, so to speak.

        If you call Wondering Jew’s bluff, he will fall apart.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2011, 1:58 pm

        “Anti-Semitism is a serious business. You make a mockery of it when you find it in the slightest mention of Christ and a narrative quote from a book of the Gospels.”

        You think Zionists are scared of Anti-Semitism? Hell, to them, it’s just so much kapok. That’s an organic form of styrofoam.

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 1:58 pm

        annie- (warning: the following joke is not politically correct)

        A Polish police recruit in the New York police department is on the job the first day. The Italian cops ask him, “Who killed Jesus?” and the Polish recruit says, “I don’t know.” and the Italian cops say, “the Jews killed Jesus”. A Jewish cop overhears and says to the Polish recruit, “who killed Jesus?” and the Polish recruit says, “I don’t know.” and the Jewish cop says, “the Romans killed Jesus”. So the Italian cops say, “When you come in tomorrow, tell us who killed Jesus.”

        The Polish recruit goes home and boasts to his wife, “My first day on the job and they already put me on a murder case.”

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2011, 2:00 pm

        “who killed jesus?”

        The Palestinians, who else?

      • Philip Weiss
        April 5, 2011, 2:13 pm

        i got your back mooser

      • eee
        April 5, 2011, 2:16 pm

        Naturally, after all don’t they claim that they are the descendants of the people that remained on the land of Israel, and don’t they support Sand’s conjecture that very few Jews were exiled? So it is obvious if you follow through with the Palestinian claims it is they that killed Jesus. Thank you Prof. Sand for finally solving that mystery.

      • Woody Tanaka
        April 5, 2011, 2:21 pm

        Are we permitted to tell bigoted jokes about anyone else? Blacks? Jews? Latinos? Or is it only Poles that are to be subject to approved mockery?

      • Cliff
        April 5, 2011, 2:23 pm

        there is no land of Israel, just as there is no land of Oz or never never land

        there is the Israeli State

        the end

        how long did that Jewish kingdom last? Arabs and Muslims were the majority, and only through massive ethnic cleansing did the Zionism succeed in creating Israel such as it is

      • Woody Tanaka
        April 5, 2011, 2:24 pm

        “Mediocre things- Belief in the identity of the son with the father.”
        In what way is this “mediocre”? Do you mean theologically or in some other way?

        “Horrible things- … the inference that the only way that God will hear the prayers of people is when they pray through the middleman of Jesus.”
        This is theologically incorrect. In Christian theology, Jesus is not a “middleman” to God, Jesus is God.

      • MHughes976
        April 5, 2011, 2:51 pm

        Salvation is from the Jews, you know, according to John 4/22. Jewish people have ‘much advantage every way’ according to the Epistle to the Romans 3/2.
        My response to annie would be to say that the objective truth about the life and death of Jesus ‘of Nazareth’ is very hard to identify (as indeed is ancient Nazareth), though I think that there’s no doubt that the New Testament attributes responsibility to several people, Jewish and Roman. I’ve sometimes recommended the Oxford History of the Biblical World. In respect of Jesus the OH – striving desperately not to give offence – leaves us in some doubt about what happened but in no doubt about the sheer difficulty of the problem. From the Jesus-events, whatever they really were, there emerged two religions with rather bad, though – as mentioned – not quite consistently bad, opinions of each other. It would be interesting, in a rather sad way, to identify the first friendly reference in modern times to Judaism by a Christian writer and the first friendly reference to Christianity by a Jewish one.
        But surely the important thing is that none, but none, of this defines the rights of wrongs of today and there is no moral justification for suspicion between members of different religions based on ancient history.
        Shmuel mentions Gedaliah, who I understand is honoured by Jewish tradition – it’s interesting that he stood both for Jeremiah’s religious vision and for cooperation and trust between Jewish and non-Jewish (pagan) forces. Sheshbazzar and Zerubbabel must have had comparable political views and they seem, on the record, to have been good guys too.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2011, 2:54 pm

        “Naturally, after all…/….solving that mystery.”

        Who’s got my back, Phil? Huh? I knew when I wrote that where to look for support and corroboration, and it wasn’t but a minute before I saw, as it were, the sunlight glinting off the rifle barrels of the British relief force.

        So, “eee” are you going to thank them for doing us such a favor?

      • Avi
        April 5, 2011, 2:56 pm

        wondering jew April 5, 2011 at 11:08 am

        Avi- You have your priorities, which include in other comments, some pretty drastic personal stuff, I have mine.

        Drastic personal stuff? Like what?

        Criticizing someone for parasitic behavior that privileges one over the indigenous people solely based on religion is quite legitimate.

        But, since you’re the one who “made Aliah”, suddenly your despicable actions are “personal stuff”.

        That’s fascinating.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2011, 2:57 pm

        “I was not cool, calm and collected and I apologize for my fevered responses.”

        Shoot and cry, write and whine. All in a day’s work for Wondering Jew. And he won’t tell us what he’s wondering about! Hard to believe there is anything.

      • Avi
        April 5, 2011, 2:59 pm

        DBG April 5, 2011 at 11:06 am

        Avi, do you know how many Jews have been killed because of this? This is why WJ is so up in arms about it.

        Wow. Do you have any idea how many Jews have been killed because of Israel’s fascist policies?

        The fact that you and wj are going out of your way to defend the most vial [sic] instances of ethnic cleansing on this blog, is absolutely disgusting.

        Morally bankrupt is an understatement.

      • Lydda Four Eight
        April 5, 2011, 3:13 pm

        Annie,
        The Jewish Religious Establishment of the time of Jesus wanted to preserve their power, they envied Jesus and feared that He was gaining a critical mass of followers.

        Envy: Matt 27:18 For he (Pilate) knew it was out of envy that they (the Sanhedrin) had handed Jesus over to him. (NIV)

        Fear: Mark 11:18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching. (NIV)

        To preserve power: John 11:47-53 47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin. “What are we accomplishing?” they asked. “Here is this man performing many miraculous signs. 48 If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49 Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” 51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53 So from that day on they plotted to take his life.

        Jesus was handed over to the Roman Pontius Pilate, even though Pilate knew Jesus was innocent.

        Luke 23:4 Then Pilate announced to the chief priests and the crowd, “I find no basis for a charge against this man.” (then sends Him to Herod)

        Luke 23:14 “You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him.”

        Luke 23:22 For the third time he spoke to them: “Why? What crime has this an committed? I have found in him no grounds for the death penalty. Therefore I will have him punished and then release him.”

        The Jewish people in general were not against Jesus!

        Matt 26:3-5 3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him. 5 “But not during the Feast,” they said, “or there may be a riot among the people.” (NIV)

        The people knew there was a plot to kill Yeshua:

        John 7:25 At that point some of the people of Jerusalem began to ask, “Isn’t this the man they (the Jewish Leadership) are trying to kill? (NIV)

        Matt 21:45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd [the crowd is Jewish] because the people held that he was a prophet .

        Popular opinion of Jesus:

        Matt 16:13,14 13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” (NIV)

        John 7:31 Still, many in the crowd put their faith in him. They said, “When the Christ (Messiah) comes, will he do more miraculous signs than this man?”

        Jesus was a real revolutionary who held His strongest criticisms against the religious establishment of His day. They were the gatekeepers and they did not like this Jesus who was a threat to their power structure.

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 4:11 pm

        Avi- I thought you were supposed to quit commenting here after Phil posted something I wrote. Whatever happened to that?

        It so happens that sometimes you make apt comments, but you need to mix in your hatreds as well. But I’m sure you have some cheerleaders here who will cheer you on.

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 4:16 pm

        mooser- humor, styrofoam, styrofoam, styrofoam, styrofoam, humor. Repeat.

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 4:22 pm

        Woody Tanaka- The worshiping of a human born of a human as a god or as God is mediocre to me. Monotheism or pantheism or atheism seem to me all superior to Jesus is God.

        There are Christians who have said that God does not hear the prayers of people who don’t believe in Jesus. (God does not hear the prayer of Jews, I think is the exact quote.) This might be an inference drawn from the “only way to the father is through the son” that might be false. I don’t know. But I think this is a very inferior concept of God, which leads to some very negative thought patterns towards those who don’t believe in Jesus as the son of God.

      • annie
        April 5, 2011, 4:42 pm

        Avi- I thought you were supposed to quit commenting here after Phil posted something I wrote. Whatever happened to that?

        you crack me up. this is so funny wj, however i find you’re rather creative in your desperation. but to answer your question my recollection is we begged him to stay. we love avi, he’s not going anywhere!

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 4:56 pm

        annie- cheerleader par excellence!

      • annie
        April 5, 2011, 5:01 pm

        lydda, thanks for such a thorough explanation. i knew jesus was a revolutionary and i knew that is why they killed him. i guess i am just not clear why there is so much debate and confusion about why or who killed him.

      • annie
        April 5, 2011, 5:04 pm

        WJ- styrofoam, styrofoam, styrofoam, styrofoam. Repeat.

        mooser-humor,humor,humor,humor,humor,humor,humor,humor,humor, humor, icecream! humor,humor, humor. Repeat.

      • DBG
        April 5, 2011, 5:27 pm

        Annie, if you own a TV and have cable, the history channel does a “Who Killed Jesus” show around Easter every year. I like their biblical stuff you might enjoy it too.

      • Woody Tanaka
        April 5, 2011, 5:29 pm

        “i guess i am just not clear why there is so much debate and confusion about why or who killed him.”

        The debate stems from the charge of deicide – the killing of God. Or, more precisely, the horrible claim that the Jews of the world, for all time, bore the stain of guilt for the machinations which led to the death of Jesus.

        The confusion as to who killed him or why stems from the fact that the land was occupied by the Romans and the Romans used crucifixion as a form of execution, but the Bible asserts that certain Jewish priests, led by Caiaphas, plotted to force the Romans’ hand, because, as occupiers, the Romans reserved the death penalty for themselves.

        Thus, if the execution of Jesus was a purely Roman decision, done for non-religious purposes (such as, that his rabble-rousing was a threat to good order and Roman rule), then the charge of deicide cannot be laid on the head of the Jews, then or now. (and it should go without saying that the horrors this charge led to in the centuries that follow was a travesty of justice and a crime of the highest order.)

        Maddeningly, the Gospels provide support for both views, depeding on the desires of the person doing the looking: that Jesus was a civil threat to the Romans and a religious threat to the Jewish priests’ religious establishment.

      • Donald
        April 5, 2011, 5:56 pm

        I understand why WJ and others are sensitive on this subject–portions of the New Testament have been used to justify anti-semitism, in particular the notion that “the Jews” killed Jesus.

        At the same time, though, when you read the Gospels the picture painted is (except for a few passages that cause one to cringe because of how they were used by anti-semites over the centuries) as you say–the religious establishment fears this rabble-rouser. It’s the same theme one finds in the Hebrew Bible–true prophets are not loved by the establishment, which is a general sort of truth that extends outside the religious context.

        As for anti-semitism, it seems to me that much of the Hebrew Bible paints an unflattering portrait of powerful people in general, whether Jewish or non-Jewish, with a handful of exceptions and that unflattering portrait includes the religious establishment. That attitude carries over into the New Testament. The only problem is that sometimes the Gospels (particularly John) use the term “the Jews”, but virtually everyone in the Gospels, both the good guys and the bad guys, are Jewish. It’s the people in power who are being criticized, I think. Though I don’t doubt that by the time the Gospels were written the friction between early Christians and Jews probably manifests itself in some of the wording.

      • Chaos4700
        April 5, 2011, 5:56 pm

        WJ, you’re just an awful bully like every other underhanded Zionist we’ve ever had here.

        I’m glad Avi stayed. You’re the one who should leave — the occupation first, and then maybe Mondoweiss after that.

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 6:03 pm

        Lydda 48- The account of Pontius Pilate’s belief in Jesus’s innocence is considered to be phony, by many of us who feel that the gospels lie (or accept Pilate’s show as the real thing) in order to put the blame on the Jews when the Jews didn’t deserve it. Those who wrote the gospels were trying to spread the word in Rome and in the Roman empire at the time that the Romans ruled the world, thus it was easier to put the blame on the Jews rather than on Rome and that’s what the account given in the gospels does.

        Jesus’s followers before the crucifixion, as he was entering Jerusalem, were declaring him as the king of Israel and that was a revolution against Herod and the rule of Rome and that was punishable by death.

        Those who ruled the Jewish people at the time were kowtowing to the will of Rome, they were quislings and they were doing the bidding of Rome. To speak of them as a religious establishment without acknowledging that they were quislings obedient to Rome is to give half a picture, a way of hiding the truth.

      • annie
        April 5, 2011, 6:21 pm

        thanks woody. i was unfamiliar w/the word deicide so i just looked it up. ( terrible vocabulary)

        i think people need to move on in a huge way. i hope they do anyway.

      • Shmuel
        April 5, 2011, 7:09 pm

        Jesus was brought up because he was a Jew killed by Jews – the subject of the original post. This was the context.

        In the story told in the Gospels (and we have no other sources), the Jewish leadership was responsible for Christ’s death, whether the actual execution was carried out by Jews or not. It is part of the founding myth of a religion espoused by a couple of billion people today. Should it not be told? Should it be discarded? Should it not be mentioned in “mixed” company? I really don’t understand what you want. No mention was made of collective Jewish guilt (repudiated by the vast majority of Christians today). So what is the problem? Are you currently persecuted because you killed Christ? Do you know of anyone who is? You are free to have your historical associations, but they are your problem, unless proven otherwise – certainly not the case here, despite Lydda 48’s sensitivity and generosity.

        (I didn’t think where you lived was a secret. You mentioned it yourself in one of your posts.)

        I object strongly to many of the sweeping and anachronistic conclusions drawn from Jewish texts and traditions by a few commenters on this site. I think you have made a similar mistake here, with regard to a Christian text.

      • Chaos4700
        April 5, 2011, 7:17 pm

        I generally despise these religious conversations, they’re generally worthless. But, rather important point to make — Jesus was tried, sentenced and executed by Roman authorities. Granted, if you want to take the Bible at its word, the Romans were lobbied to do so by specific Jewish Pharisees who saw Jesus as a threat to their ecumenical authority. I don’t doubt though that the Romans would have killed him anyway without their support. Jesus was a threat to either establishment, because he taught peace and basic human rights.

      • Shmuel
        April 5, 2011, 7:36 pm

        WJ,

        There are many reasons to speculate as to the motives of the authors of the Gospels for blaming the Jewish leadership for Christ’s death (primarily to avoid blaming their target audience and its rulers, and to distinguish Christianity from Judaism). There are even reasons to doubt the very existence of a historical Jesus. None of this however, implies the automatic association of any reference to the story, as told in the Gospels, with Christian anti-Semitism.

      • RoHa
        April 5, 2011, 7:54 pm

        “Or is it only Poles that are to be subject to approved mockery?”

        Of course not. The Welsh, New Zealanders, Canadians, and (if you are Swedish*) Norwegians are all fair game.

        (*Really Swedish, not an American pretending to be Swedish because your grandfather came from Eskilstuna.)

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 8:17 pm

        Shmuel- The Jewish leadership in Judea, meaning the priests, at the time of Jesus’s death, was a quisling leadership. People, who have a reality based way of relating to current events, suddenly drop all their reality when discussing the death of Jesus, (who you referred to as Christ in one of your comments, was that a slip on your part?)

        Today the major problem for the Jewish people (other than the offenses of Zionism) is the existence of the state of Israel in an Islamic neighborhood and thus Christian Jew hatred is not my problem nor has it ever been a first hand problem for me. Because of the fact of Israel and its various sins/crimes, it is impossible to determine to what degree Islamic Jew hatred would exist today if not for Israel.

        I was raised by people who fled Europe and so my fear of Christian Jew hatred is second hand and not first hand. Though Nazism was not a Christian ideology it found fertile ground for its Jew hatred in the Christian society of Germany. My grandparents come from what was Poland in the 1930’s and there the Christian Jew hatred was quite virulent.

        I am not as knowledgeable about Islam as I am about Christianity having grown up and spent the vast majority of my years in a Christian or a post Christian society. I am sensitive to people citing the death of Jesus in the middle of a discussion about the offenses of Zionism. If you think the progression of Rabin, Altalena, DeHaan, Jesus is a natural progression, then I think you are biased. Context or no context, I don’t think it was a continuation of the discussion that was worthy.

        In this discussion I have been called a settler once again by one of your fellow haters of Zionism, Mister Mooser. Last time that I said I was not a settler you felt the urge to give aid and comfort to whoever called me a settler (Chaos, or Avi or Mooser, one of my fan club) by citing my neighborhood.

        Just reading some of the quotes from the book of John quoted again by Lydda 48 in explaining the reasons for Jesus’s crucifixion, my stomach turned in reaction to the quotes and their bias. I really don’t think she yet realizes how offensive much of the book of John can be to those Jews who have not been inured to the crucifixion.

        Truth: I really don’t like seeing crosses around people’s necks, on buildings or in paintings. I certainly don’t like hearing about the execution of Jesus in a discussion unless it is totally necessary.

      • RoHa
        April 5, 2011, 8:20 pm

        annie,
        “i am just not clear why there is so much debate and confusion about why or who killed him.”

        The core of the confusion is that the Gospel stories are incoherent. They they do not fit the known history, they contradict each other, and they do not even make sense as fiction.

        Assuming Jesus existed, it seems likely that he was the leader of a mass movement which was both anti-Roman and anti-Temple establishment.

        Crucifixion was the punishment for rebels against Rome.

        According to Acts (not, I fear, much more trustworthy than the Gospels) even after Jesus’ death the movement was powerful enough to defy the High Priest and (of course) extort money from the followers. (Isn’t that what religion is for?)

        Acts 2:41, 4:4, 4:5-21, 5:1-11.

        The movement was a Jewish movement. Paul produced his own non-Jewish version and sold it to the Gentiles.

      • Lydda Four Eight
        April 6, 2011, 3:06 am

        RoHa,
        “The core of the confusion is that the Gospel stories are incoherent. They they do not fit the known history, they contradict each other, and they do not even make sense as fiction … The movement was a Jewish movement. Paul produced his own non-Jewish version and sold it to the Gentiles.”

        Are you familiar with the 1st century Jewish Historian Josephus’ writing Antiquities of the Jews, specifically the Testimonium Flavianum, which describes the ministry and death of Jesus? These passages about Jesus are often cited confirming the historicity of Jesus.

      • Shmuel
        April 6, 2011, 3:26 am

        Truth: I really don’t like seeing crosses around people’s necks, on buildings or in paintings. I certainly don’t like hearing about the execution of Jesus in a discussion unless it is totally necessary.

        This is your bias (one I have shared – due to our similar backgrounds). Christianity has changed. Can you?

      • Woody Tanaka
        April 6, 2011, 9:47 am

        “To speak of them as a religious establishment without acknowledging that they were quislings obedient to Rome is to give half a picture, a way of hiding the truth.”

        That would only be the case if the Jewish religious establishment’s reaction to Christ’s movement had no motivation what was not also shared by Rome. If the Jewish establishment had a strong religious objection to Jesus and Rome couldn’t care less about one of the many religous mystics running around the province, then the fact that they were “quislings” would be irrelevant.

      • Woody Tanaka
        April 6, 2011, 10:25 am

        wj,

        So your use of “mediocre” was an aesthetic value judgment. Fair enough. As an atheist, I have similar value judgments about various religions, although I find the Christian story one of the theologically brights spots in the Abrahamic regilious tradition. But to each his own.

        N.B.: Christians don’t worship “a human born of a human as a god or as God.” In Christian theology, Christ had a duel nature: he was fully God and fully man. So they worship God as God but recognize that God once became man.

        There are those, I suppose, who adhere to the type of Christian exclusivity, but in my experience (limited to interaction with American Christians and some study of Catholic doctrine) most believe that God recognizes a relationship between God and the Jews and that God does hear the prayers of the Jews, but there are those who believe otherwise, I’m sure.

  14. MRW
    April 4, 2011, 12:17 pm

    masked Palestinian militants

    Probably IDF, or Mossad. Would be typical.
    link to desertpeace.wordpress.com

    • eee
      April 4, 2011, 12:42 pm

      From link to ynetnews.com :
      However, the actor added, he was taking precautions. Of those behind the fliers he said, “It makes them crazy that a man who is half-Jewish is at the head of one of the most important projects in the Palestinian West Bank and it is just hypocritical racism.”

      “I have never been as Jewish as I am right now in Jenin. After all this work at the camp it would be extremely unfortunate to die of a Palestinian bullet,” he added in a moment of clairvoyance.

      ————–

      Right, the Mossad shot him.

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 1:21 pm

        Not long before the assassination:

        Israel summons Jenin residents for questioning

        Israeli intelligence officers accompanied by soldiers entered the northern West Bank village of Jalqamus [which is east of Jenin] on Monday morning, demanding entry into several homes before sunrise and delivering summons to four residents.

        It’s all about the timing. I’m sure the first thing a bunch of Palestinians would do while Israeli soldiers are stomping around the vicinity would be to run around with guns themselves.

        So. What were intel officers doing in Jenin? I have a guess.

      • Avi
        April 4, 2011, 2:21 pm

        Yes. Like you said, the timing is certainly suspicious. I also don’t see why Israeli intelligence officers were delivering the summons when soldiers could have done so.

        And since no arrests were made, that points to the fact that the case involving the individuals summoned wasn’t an urgent/pressing matter.

      • annie
        April 5, 2011, 5:10 pm

        very very strange.

        The homes of Rabie Al-Hajj, Khalil Al-Hajj, Sami Al-Hajj and Hashem Al-Qazam were entered by armed soldiers and briefly searched. Relatives were handed summons orders for the head of household to appear before intelligence officials during the coming week.

        No detentions were reported in the village, which is east of Jenin.

        so they entered before sunrise. any info when they departed?

      • DBG
        April 5, 2011, 5:13 pm

        You guys are still playing this disinformation game?

      • Chaos4700
        April 5, 2011, 7:18 pm

        I don’t know. Do you believe UN warehouses spontaneously combust, and that it wasn’t a war crime, DBG?

      • eljay
        April 4, 2011, 1:41 pm

        >> Right, the Mossad shot him.

        MRW can’t prove they did, and you can’t prove they didn’t. In fact, from the very article you linked to, no one yet knows who’s responsible:
        >> Musa stated that Palestinian security forces have yet to obtain any information on the identity of the killers …

        >> “It makes them crazy that a man who is half-Jewish is at the head of one of the most important projects in the Palestinian West Bank and it is just hypocritical racism.”

        It is, and it is most unfortunate. What’s really funny, though, is the irony of “Jewish state” Zio-supremacists smugly referencing this quote.

      • Cliff
        April 4, 2011, 5:18 pm

        It would not be crazy for the Mossad to have shot him, but I don’t think that is the consensus of this blog. So stop straw manning the discussion eee.

        Get a life.

      • wondering jew
        April 4, 2011, 7:24 pm

        I don’t know who reads the comments section of this blog other than those who hate the Israelis enough to believe anything, but if there are any uncommitted readers of this blog, I can promise you that blaming Israel for the bomb at the central bus station and the killings of the Fogel family in Itamar and of the killing of Juliano Mer-Khamis does nothing to enhance the credibility of the comments section of this blog.

      • GuiltyFeat
        April 5, 2011, 2:43 am

        Dude with some of these loonies we’re way past credibility. On this board Occam’s razor is Occam’s Moebius strip where all roads lead to the Mossad.

        But stick around, there are some real people among the trolls with genuine passion and concerns. Just sift through the conspiracy stuff and you’ll learn a lot.

      • Cliff
        April 5, 2011, 2:56 am

        Wow WJ, because that’s what I said right?

        Remember when IDF soldiers dressed up as Arabs? Mist’arvim

        Way to slippery slope though. Typical.

      • Chaos4700
        April 5, 2011, 3:26 am

        Considering we have a FLOOD of Israelis here all itching to hang Palestinians? For anything and everything? WJ, it’s not our credibility you should be worrying about.

      • GuiltyFeat
        April 5, 2011, 8:12 am

        Another lie Chaos4700. Please point to a single post on this site by a single Israeli, let alone a flood of us, who is itching to hang a Palestinian.

        Hamas, on the other hand, routinely kill and maim Palestinians on suspicion of collaboration.

        When you make up lies like this, your credibility is very much in doubt.

      • wondering jew
        April 5, 2011, 8:31 am

        Guilty Feat – Occam’s Razor is Occam’s Moebius strip. very nice.

      • Chaos4700
        April 5, 2011, 12:45 pm

        I haven’t seen an Israeli on this forum yet who hasn’t immediately blamed EVERY murder of anyone with so much of a drop of Jewish blood on “some random black guy Palestinian.”

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2011, 1:20 pm

        “does nothing to enhance the credibility of the comments section of this blog.”

        The Goldstone “retraction” has got them all higher than the proverbial kite.

      • annie
        April 5, 2011, 1:34 pm

        The Goldstone “retraction” has got them all higher than the proverbial kite.

        i know! it cracks me up. they’re all jacked up on ziocaine, it’s like a holiday around here for them.

      • DBG
        April 5, 2011, 2:54 pm

        They are anything but random murder’s Chaos. Juliano’s colleague said this was a very deliberate well thought out murder, perpetrated by an opposing faction who didn’t like his provocative theater.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2011, 2:59 pm

        “I don’t know who reads the comments section of this blog other than those who hate the Israelis…”

        Yes, Wondering Jew, you are a faithful reader of the comments, aren’t you.

      • annie
        April 5, 2011, 5:15 pm

        I can promise you that blaming Israel for the bomb at the central bus station and the killings of the Fogel family in Itamar and of the killing of Juliano Mer-Khamis does nothing to enhance the credibility of the comments section of this blog.

        I can promise you that blaming palestinians for the bomb at the central bus station and the killings of the Fogel family in Itamar and of the killing of Juliano Mer-Khamis does nothing to enhance anyone’s credibility which would include zionists or the msm or ynet or eee or you.

      • Potsherd2
        April 5, 2011, 5:56 pm

        Stick with it, Guilty. Your attitude is commendable.

      • RoHa
        April 5, 2011, 8:29 pm

        “I can promise you that blaming Israel for …the killings of the Fogel family in Itamar”

        Who blamed Israel for that? As far as I can recall, people have simply pointed out that it has not been established that the killer was a Palestinian.

  15. eee
    April 4, 2011, 12:24 pm

    It is indeed very sad news.
    But it is appropriate to ask in the the context of this blog how can one hear such news and still support a one state solution? How can one believe that Jews would be safe in such a state? Well Robert? Do you understand what exactly you are supporting? Do you understand how Utopian and irresponsible you are?

    • Cliff
      April 4, 2011, 1:19 pm

      Why do you only ask whether Jews are safe when Israel kills more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis?

      The crimes are disproportionate and against the Palestinians.

      Not you.

      Shut up.

    • Chaos4700
      April 4, 2011, 1:23 pm

      There were an Israeli operation just east of Jenin proper shortly before the assassination. So who really killed this man?

    • Avi
      April 4, 2011, 1:38 pm

      I will reserve my response to your comment to a more appropriate time.

      • eee
        April 4, 2011, 2:26 pm

        “There were an Israeli operation just east of Jenin proper shortly before the assassination. So who really killed this man?”

        Let’s make this simple. I will bet $10,000 with anyone willing to take the bet that it was Palestinians who killed him. Any takers? Anyone willing to put their money where their mouth is? Or all you are is just talk? Let Phil or Adam set up an escrow account with a lawyer in NY and I will transfer my $10000 into the account.

      • annie
        April 4, 2011, 3:10 pm

        oh yawn

      • eee
        April 4, 2011, 3:52 pm

        Why not make an easy $10000 so that you can give Mondoweiss or any other favorite charity of yours? Or are you just brave spewing or supporting venom about Israel but are not willing to back your accusations with anything real? What a bunch of chicken-hawks.

      • hophmi
        April 4, 2011, 4:17 pm

        “oh yawn”

        Is the truth tiring you, Annie?

      • annie
        April 4, 2011, 4:30 pm

        eee, i have no idea who killed him (none whatsoever). the idea of people placing bets on a thread about this man’s death…i just find it appalling. would it be too much to let the investigation proceed before placing bets, or at least let a little time pass?

        and how can anyone make statements about the ‘truth’ of who committed this murder when this just happened?

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 5:08 pm

        You’re going to go right one shooting Palestinians and stealing their homes no matter who the murderer is, and hophmi is going to be there right behind you with the pom poms and (hopefully) metaphorical pleated skirt.

        I don’t make bets with racists. Or traitors. As a rule.

      • Sumud
        April 4, 2011, 5:56 pm

        I will bet $10,000 with anyone willing to take the bet that it was Palestinians who killed him.

        Tacky and disrespectful eee.

        But it doesn’t have to be: if you are so sure that it was a Palestinian that killed Mer-Khamis then pledge to donate $10,000 to a charity (or charities) of Mer-Khamis’ families choosing, if it emerges that the killers weren’t Palestinian.

        You’re the one claiming the killer was Palestinian, most others here including myself are NOT saying that the killer was Mossad or jewish, just that there is no evidence to date to suggest the killer is Palestinian.

        Show us that you have the courage of your convictions eee, make that pledge.

      • RoHa
        April 4, 2011, 8:08 pm

        We may never find out who killed him.

      • lyn117
        April 5, 2011, 1:16 am

        @eee, you seem so sure a Palestinian killed him, you must have inside knowledge. I’ve heard from a number of sources that the occupied territories are riddled with spies and informants. If it’s true some Palestinian killed him, it’s quite possible that one of those informants was offered money or threatened with exposure to do so, or perhaps more subtly an Israeli spy spread a rumor that Mer Khamis was himself a traitor to the Palestinian cause, it’s easy to get people to be suspicious of each other under conditions that prevail foreign occupation. Did you or one of your Israeli friends instigate the murder?

    • Sumud
      April 4, 2011, 2:03 pm

      But it is appropriate to ask in the the context of this blog how can one hear such news and still support a one state solution? How can one believe that Jews would be safe in such a state?

      Is it appropriate?

      With Israel killing four times more Palestinians than vice versa* in the last decade and ten times as many Palestinian minors as vice versa* I rather think the question is more appropriately:

      How can one believe that Palestinians would be safe in such a state?

      While you’re responding eee, perhaps you could explain what you know that the Palestinian police chief doesn’t, that would lead you write with the assumption that the militants were Palestinian?

      *B’Tselem press release: 10 years to the second Intifada – summary of data:

      Israeli security forces killed 6371 Palestinians, of whom 1317 were minors.

      Palestinians killed 1083 Israelis in Israel and the Occupied Territories. 741 of the fatalities were civilians, of whom 124 were minors…

      • eee
        April 4, 2011, 2:31 pm

        Sumud,

        Your answer just shows how bankrupt your cause is. This murder was committed in a context of a half Jew trying to live peacefully among Palestinians in Jenin. The exact situation you are trying to claim is safe for Jews. I am in fact claiming that the one state is not safe for either Jews or Palestinians.

      • Woody Tanaka
        April 4, 2011, 3:54 pm

        eee,
        Your assertion is logically flawed (as usual). This murder was committed in the context of an on-going situation in which most of the Palestinians, making up 1/2 of the population between the Jordan and the Med, have no say in the government which controls their lives, where the Palestinians have been subject to a murderous, brutal, multi-generational occupation and where the Israelis are motivated by a most bigoted ideology of Zionism, directly at odds with the native population. The one-state solution will necessarily require the de facto abandonment of that vile ideology of Zionism as well as the completion of a process of reconciliation granting the Palestinians some measure of the justice they’ve been denied. This event, in this context, is indicative of absolutely nothing when it comes to some other context.

      • eee
        April 4, 2011, 5:00 pm

        Woody,

        No of course not, how can the fact that Palestinians murder a Jew living among them that has helped create an institution important to many Palestinians be indicative of how well Palestinians and Jews can live together? Don’t make a fool of yourself.

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 5:16 pm

        It’s a fact that Palestinians killed this man?

      • Woody Tanaka
        April 4, 2011, 5:49 pm

        The only fool here is you if you can’t understand that a one-state solution would change the very context which helped produced this crime (if, in fact, it was a Palestinians who did this crime).

        Pointing to this act as saying that that context change is impossible is akin to pointing to actions taken by the IRA before the Good Friday accords or by the ANC before the end of Apartheid and saying that conflict between the Protestants and Catholics or between the whites and blacks of SA is inevitable and would not change. The Protestants and the whites had to learn to share power; the Israeli Jews will have to learn that lesson or be doomed to the cycle of murder and be murdered.

        May they show something they’ve never shown in their 60-odd years as a state: the ability to be wise instead of unthinking indulgence in their fear, cowardice, barbarism and paranoia.

      • Sumud
        April 4, 2011, 6:33 pm

        Your answer just shows how bankrupt your cause is.

        What is my “cause” eee? I don’t have an ideological attachment to either a single or two-state outcome and I’ve said this on numerous occasions.

        This murder was committed in a context of a half Jew trying to live peacefully among Palestinians in Jenin.

        IMHO this seems more probable: this murder was committed in the context of an internal cultural boycott by 60 Israeli actors/actresses of theatres in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (part of the growing BDS Movement), backed by a letter of support from 150 Hollywood thespians.

        What better way to scare the beejesus out of Israeli actors and convincing them that co-existence is impossible than by killing one of them and blaming Palestinians? Whoever opposed the Ariel Theatre Boycott must be jumping for joy.

        Since Mer-Khamis was in Jenin during the mayhem of the 2nd Intifadah, I really have to wonder why these supposed “Palestinian militants” waited until 2011 to kill him. The cofounder of his theatre (Zakaria Zubeidi ) is a former leader of the Jenin Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade – it certainly doesn’t sound like he was a man without respect or influential Palestinian friends.

        I am in fact claiming that the one state is not safe for either Jews or Palestinians.

        Who could have guessed in 1945 that within just a few decades Brits, the French and Germans would be the staunchest of allies? Who would have guessed that half a century after the nazi genocides Germany would be be consistently in the top 5 of most admired nations in the world eee?

        There’s a road back eee, even for zionists.

        It was less than twenty years after the “Three No’s of Khartoum” that KSA with the Fahd Plan, and then the Arab League with the Fez Initiative of 1982/3 (the precursor of the still-on-offer Arab Peace Initiative) proposed complete normalisation with Israel in return for Israel merely complying with international law.

        Thirty years later Israel still hasn’t taken the Arab League up on their offer. It’s screamingly obvious by now that Israel has no interest in peace. Co-existence will become possible for the vast majority of Palestinian and Israelis when they exist under a single colour-blind legal system. Unavoidably there will be a militant minority on both sides that refuse to co-exist and will end up in jail – and so be it. The only reason the settlers are rampaging is because the Israeli military and justice system let’s them get away with murder – literally.

      • Reb
        April 5, 2011, 4:27 am

        Palestinians also kill Palestinians. Israelis kill Israelis. Who killed Rabin? Who is attacking protesters in Ramallah right now?

        As another half-Jew who lived for years in the West Bank, I will say with UTMOST conviction: IF his killers were Palestinian, it should not AT ALL be assumed that they killed him simply for his Jewishness.

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 2:35 pm

        Also of note for analyzing that data:

        21% of casualties inflicted on the Palestinians were children.
        11% of the casualties inflicted on Israelis were children.

        So not only has Israel killed ten times as many children in absolute numbers, in proportionate terms, Israeli attacks kill children twice as often than Palestinian attacks. And that’s if you normalize as if Israel attacks the Palestinians exactly as often as vice versa. Which clearly isn’t the case.

      • DBG
        April 4, 2011, 3:40 pm

        Chaos,

        how many of them were Israeli Palestinians? You can keep repeating this data until you are blue in the face. EEEs point is this man was living in harmony with Palestinians and he was killed for it.

        We all know Palestinian secret agents killed all those kids too, right? Isn’t that the Mondoweiss school of though, blame it on someone else?

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 5:09 pm

        The question is whether the man was really killed by the Palestinians he was helping… or was he killed by soldiers or settlers who’ve labelled him a “race traitor.”

      • Sumud
        April 4, 2011, 6:05 pm

        EEEs point is this man was living in harmony with Palestinians and he was killed for it.

        Which is an utterly baseless statement. We don’t yet know the identity, nationality and motivation of the killer(s).

        Isn’t that the Mondoweiss school of though, blame it on someone else?

        Again with this silliness DBG? Since you asked such a question I’ll answer it: no. You either haven’t been understanding what you’re reading here, or are choosing to misrepresent it.

      • DBG
        April 4, 2011, 2:44 pm

        Sumud,

        what are you helping to prove here? Because Israel killed more Palestinians a one-state solution is more possible? eee was simply stating is these events and those of the past 10 years makes a one-state solution impossible.

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 5:15 pm

        Right. Which means eee is copping to the fact that Israel is making the one-state solution impossible.

        And since Israel also makes the two-state solution impossible, that means Israel is making any and every solution that isn’t a “final solution” to the “Palestinian demographic problem” impossible.

        In other words, Israel is the obstacle.

      • Sumud
        April 4, 2011, 6:42 pm

        Sumud,

        what are you helping to prove here?

        My point was to demonstrate the overarching silliness of eee’s attempt to employ the murder of an Israeli actor to make a point about the impossibility of Israelis and Palestinians co-existing in a single state. And, to correct the melodramatic jew-centric tilt of his comment by pointing out that Palestinians are killed in far higher number by Israelis that eee’s comment suggests.

        eee was simply stating is these events and those of the past 10 years makes a one-state solution impossible.

        I really don’t give much credit to eee’s viewpoint DBG, and I advise you to do the same.

    • justicewillprevail
      April 4, 2011, 2:30 pm

      What a jerk you are. Do you think it is safe for Palestinians right now in the one apartheid state that Israel has created? The IDF have plenty of form in these incidents:

      link to en.wikipedia.org

      They have the means and the motive, and are past masters at lying their heads off.

      • eee
        April 4, 2011, 3:54 pm

        Take the bet or shut up. If you are really confident that Israel did it what have you got to lose?

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 7:18 pm

        “Take the bet or shut up.” Not that, you know, it’s always about money for eee.

    • seafoid
      April 4, 2011, 3:42 pm

      Erez Israel is one state .

      • eee
        April 4, 2011, 4:26 pm

        So is Ireland. Oh wait, no it isn’t.

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 5:13 pm

        Are you suggesting that the Irish blow up a hotel full of British citizens? That seems to be the strategy your parents took.

      • hophmi
        April 4, 2011, 6:32 pm

        You mean a military base full of soldiers?

      • Sumud
        April 4, 2011, 6:48 pm

        You mean a military base full of soldiers?

        The King David Hotel was not a military base. Out of 91 people killed just 13 were soldiers, the rest were British Mandate government officials, clerks, typists, hotel employees and members of the public.

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 7:16 pm

        And, you know, JEWS. Several of the victims of the bombing were Jews.

    • Potsherd2
      April 4, 2011, 7:42 pm

      eee, why aren’t you worrying that Palestinians wouldn’t be safe in a binational state? Why is the concern always for Jews?

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2011, 1:23 pm

        “why aren’t you worrying that Palestinians wouldn’t be safe in a binational state?”

        That’s Witty’s schtick remember? He’s the one who warns us what a miserable time the Palestinians will have among the Jews, hoping his avuncular unction will mask the threat.

  16. Sumud
    April 4, 2011, 1:44 pm

    Phil, a correction: in the AP article the Palestinian police chief says Mer-Khamis was killed by “one or more militants”, not “Palestinian militants”. The killers may well have been militant settlers undertaking a revenge attack on an Israeli actor in response to the Ariel Theatre boycott by Israeli actors.

    All that we know to date is that this is yet another unclaimed crime (like the Itamar murders and the recent bombing at a bus station*) that is being attributed to Palestinians. I smell a rat.

    *I haven’t had the time to keep up w/ MW and I/P news lately, the bus station bombing wasn’t claimed, was it?

  17. Sumud
    April 4, 2011, 1:50 pm

    I see the Haaretz article you link to Phil wrongly quotes (if the AP piece is correct) Mohammed Tayyim as attributing the murder to “Palestinian militants”.

    If they were masked and have not yet been apprehended who can honestly say what nationality they are?

    • MRW
      April 4, 2011, 8:49 pm

      Thank you, Sumud. This is the correct way to think at the moment.

      If they were masked and have not yet been apprehended who can honestly say what nationality they are?

  18. annie
    April 4, 2011, 4:34 pm

    this thread is so sad. i can’t believe people are using this murder to argue against one state as if we didn’t have plenty of threads to do that. and now bullying people into placing bets.

    what a shame. i’m out of here.

    • eee
      April 4, 2011, 5:05 pm

      Annie,

      The thread is sad because Juliano was a brave man that was murdered for nothing. It is also sad because commenters used this murder to libel Israel. Who are the bullies? Those like MRW that immediately accuse Israel of this heinous crime or someone like me that counters this accusation with a “put up or shut up” request?

      • Cliff
        April 4, 2011, 5:14 pm

        You’re disgusting eee. Every other thread you tell us might makes right – which shows us what kind of moral outlook you have.

        You only exploit this story because he might have been killed by a Palestinian militant and he was half-Jewish.

        Not to mention you link BDS with Hamas? No one here takes you seriously.

      • eljay
        April 4, 2011, 5:17 pm

        >> The thread is sad because Juliano was a brave man that was murdered for nothing. It is also sad because commenters used this murder to libel Israel.

        And it is also sad because smug Zio-supremacists are using it to deflect attention away from Israel’s on-going crimes and immorality. Even IF the Palestinians are to blame – and I don’t believe that has been proven yet – their culpability absolves Israel of absolutely none of its crimes and immorality.

        So, please, stop being such an ass.

      • justicewillprevail
        April 4, 2011, 8:17 pm

        eeeeediot, you are all over this thread with your callous stupidity and disrespect. You are the one who needs to shut up.

  19. Lois
    April 4, 2011, 4:56 pm

    Check out the photo on desertpeace.wordpress.com/ posted on April 4, 2011

    • Chaos4700
      April 4, 2011, 5:27 pm

      Not that it isn’t consistent with Israel’s behavior to date, but I have to admit I’d need to see the original press release containing that photo before I’d give that specific item credence. No offense, but while there isn’t any blatant sign of this, we do need to be sure that isn’t Photoshopped.

      • MRW
        April 4, 2011, 8:47 pm

        It’s an old photo, Chaos. It came out 7 or 8 years ago, maybe longer, as part of a real news story. I remember the original. It showed a long line of guys with guns. The necklace wasn’t apparent in the larger photo, I mean immediately discernible. But it was a big enough photo pixel-wise that this section could be blown up and isolated. There are clearer ones circulating around the web.

        Ten-to-one I have the original on my drives somewhere. I’ll probably find it while searching for something else. I have the original big photo because I zoomed in to look at it.

        The speed with which it was identified at the time was fast from the time it came out to the time it was isolated.

      • Chaos4700
        April 4, 2011, 9:09 pm

        You’ve produced credible sources before, so that’s enough for me. It might not hurt to have more corroboration though, if you have it handy, MRW.

      • MRW
        April 6, 2011, 7:31 am

        Just to be clear, Chaos. The old photo is one issue. It has been yanked about enough times and subject to the Photoshop query enough times that I trust it is accurate. Not the first time Palestinian soldiers have been impersonated. Remember the Mossad agents caught in the dock impersonating supposed Palestinian “terrorists?”

        The other is the what happened with the death of Juliano. I have no idea who did it. But claiming, automatically, that it was a Palestinian — a masked one, no less, who ran away so that identification is specious — (1) makes no sense, and (2) is the mark of idiocy absent a decent investigation and proof. What’s the motive? Far more motive on the Israeli side.

  20. lyn117
    April 5, 2011, 1:17 am

    Indeed a tragedy. He was a great man. My condolences to his family and the theatre.

  21. DBG
    April 5, 2011, 12:16 pm

    PA forces nab Hamas suspect in Mer-Khamis murder


    Friend of slain actor, former commander of Al-Aksa Martyr’s Brigade, says he fell victim to power struggles among Palestinian factions.

    Great video, a must see illustrating the work of slain hero Juliano Mer-Khamis.

    link to jpost.com

    • eee
      April 5, 2011, 1:08 pm

      You must be wrong, ask MRW. It must have been the Mossad.
      She/he wrote above:
      “Probably IDF, or Mossad. Would be typical.”

      • DBG
        April 5, 2011, 2:56 pm

        Yes, MRW the most trusted commenter on MW.

  22. Abban Aziz
    April 6, 2011, 3:03 am

    What’s new? Palestinians blaming the Joos for this?

    Just remember, many more Arabs have been killed by each other than by Israel then their so-called quest for a “Palestinian” state.

    Just last month Hamas founded up hundreds of Fatah officials and threw them in jail. Journalists and “rights” activists as well – you know, those that don’t tow their narrative.

    Juliano was a Zionist but also a Palestinian nationalist – impossible and bizzare. And this is why he was killed. Too Jewish for the ruling Palestinian terrorist hugs.

    And it’s too bad really, Palestinians can only criticize Israel and the US. But when it comes to the people that represent them, any remote criticism is stifled and punished.

    Jpost has a good article describing a telling interview about how he feared for his life more than a month before this happened.

    Sad indeed.

    • Avi
      April 6, 2011, 6:28 am

      Yeah, the Jerusalem Post, Israel’s very own Rupert Murdoch rag.

      Incidentally, the actor Muhammad Bakri who was a close friend of Juliano Mer-Khamis has said that Juliano never mentioned any threats to him, certainly not from Muslims/Palestinians.

      ==================

      P.S. — Your using an Arabic name to peddle Hasbara makes you sound like an Uncle Tom.

      Did you really think anyone was going to fall for that shtick?

      By the way, the name is spelled: “Ibbn” or “Ibbin” not “Abban”.

      You are truly pathetic.

      • Abban Aziz
        April 6, 2011, 11:16 am

        The Jerusalem Post is a reliable news source, unlike the Palestinian journalists in the West Bank and Gaza who are at the mercy of the Palestinian Authority.

        According to Human Rights Watch, an organization worshiped by Israel haters, Hamas has established a climate of fear and intolerance for journalists who dare to cover incidents that might embarass the Hamas leadership.

        Freelancers employed by the Guardian, BBC, CNN, etc…with stations in Gaza who wish to remain have to abide by the Hamas script of face physical beat downs.

        In Israel, journalists have full rights. There is no such Palestinian Gideon Levy.

        And by the way, it is bigoted to assume anyone with an Arabic name is automatically hostile towards Israel or Jewish rights.

        link to jpost.com

  23. Shmuel
    April 6, 2011, 6:08 am

    Lydda ’48,

    The Testimonium Flavianum is almost certainly a forgery, in whole or in part. The most reliable early non-Christian reference to the existence and execution of “Christ” (“at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus”) is that of Tacitus, in the Annals, although even Tacitus may very well have relied on Christian (rather than independent, Roman) sources for this information.

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