Regarding the Islamophobic tragedy we are now living through

Israel/Palestine
on 120 Comments

Tord Steiro is a Mondo reader in Norway, and writes:

Regarding the tragedy we are now living through. Let me clarify a few facts: 

1. The organization targeted in Utøya is AUF – the Labour Party’s youth organization. In recent years, this organization has been increasingly critical of the Labour Party’s alleged ‘pro-Israel’ line. Hence, a stand in solidarity with Palestine is present. However, there are many such stands on the island, during the camp. West-Sahara is usually present, and so is anti-war activists. NPA – Norwegian Peoples Aid, is usually there too, together with the usual bunch of domestic political causes. Perhaps especially the central labour union, LO. This was a political gathering for youth members in the Labour Party, and not in any way a gathering focusing on I/P issues. Except that they would be on the agenda together with any other interesting political issue.

2. The pictures on Spengler are wrong. [http://spengler.atimes.net/viewtopic.php?t=17351&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight&sid=5dc81da376cc189913bee85754fbe7bc] Fair enough, the picture featuring the stand and the minister of foreign affairs Mr. Støre are real enough, while the picture of the [Gaza] boat is misplaced. It was taken last year, at the youth camp of the socialist youth. A youth organization to left of AUF. Hence, the following passage:

The main activity at the Utoya Island Meeting were mock “Break the Israel blockade” games. One event was Palestinian aide boats would try to break the Israel blockage. Whoever gets through first wins. The sign says “defeat the blockade” (opphev blokkaden – Gaza)

Is obviously wrong.

3. The gunman is a strong advocate for Israel, and stands behind much of the same rhetoric as we hear from the other usual suspects in the Zionist camp. The gunman looks at multi-culturalism as the greatest threat to Europe, and advocates in favour of segregated nation states. 

And, for the record, it is appalling to see how the international media spun the Islamic terror card. The police kept denying Islamic terrorism from the very beginning, and we had very clear witness description of the gunman early Friday evening. The police stressed that they had solid evidence to connect the two incidents from early Friday morning. Yet, still, the international media played the ‘blame-the-Muslims’ circus for hours – even days. De facto supporting the gunman’s point of view. 

Nevertheless, these incidents are sending shock waves through Norway and Scandinavia, and people are rallying behind the ideals of multi-culturalism. Islamophobes are finding themselves in a dark place, and there are no obvious ways for them to get out of it. People connect them to the killings, and the attack on democracy. Islamophobes, not Islam, is the major threat to our way of life.

Steiro serves as a programme coordinator for the NGO FORUT, coordinating its projects in Malawi. He is active in the centrist liberal party (Venstre) and has visited the West Bank twice.

 

120 Responses

  1. Richard Witty
    July 25, 2011, 9:40 am

    Ideology that overshadows live and let live is the major threat to our life whether it is expansionist Islamic ideology, expansionist Zionist ideology, dogmatic and primarily negative forms of anarchism, various nationalisms.

    Don’t equate Israel with the gunman.

    You open the same logic then of equating Palestinian civilians with the terrorism of Hamas, done in the name of Palestinians.

    Its a bad precedent, an opportunism only.

    • Mooser
      July 25, 2011, 10:19 am

      I hate to admit it, Richard, but if you learn to read and write you could become a very effective commenter.

      • Chaos4700
        July 25, 2011, 7:21 pm

        LOL! Mooser, you are epic win. (Pardon my Wittyesque grammar.)

    • muzz al atesta
      July 25, 2011, 11:01 am

      please elaborate on how “dogmatic and primarily negative forms of anarchism” is a major threat to your life.

      i assume you are not paranoid enough to think that jonathan pollack and the AATW (anarchists against the wall) are not just threatening your anachronistic ethno-nationalist creed but also somehow out to end your life?

      i invite you to give a quick hearing to this elder jewish gentleman give a short summary of what our political philosophy & movements stand for:

    • Ellen
      July 25, 2011, 11:03 am

      No, it is fear (of others) that is a threat to civil societies.

      Societies and those living in fear are a threat to others and themselves.

      The gunman and those that feed his ideology are fearful, afraid of multiculturalism, afraid of any possibility of vast social change. They live and act on fear and there are many forces ready to stoke it for their ends.

      Israel is a fearful society. The US has become a fearful society. This is dangerous.

      • Taxi
        July 25, 2011, 12:17 pm

        “… it is fear (of others) that is a threat to civil societies.”

        Right on the money, Ellen.

        Therefore it stands to good reason to reject ALL ideologies that promote societal segregation or superiority over others through race, religion, gender, ect.

        Utterly reject racism like it’s the black plague.

      • longliveisrael
        July 25, 2011, 8:23 pm

        Taxi, so you agree that Saudis are racist because they promote “societal segregation or superiority over others through religion” The same could be said for Iran and several other Muslim countries. Thanks for pointing that out. I am waiting for the BDS campaign against Saudi Apartheid any day now.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 9:04 pm

        The same could be said for Iran and several other Muslim countries.

        What “societal segregation or superiority over others through religion” do you have evidence of in Iran? If that werethe case, then why wuodl theyhave the second largest Jewish population in the ME?

        I am waiting for the BDS campaign against Saudi Apartheid any day now.

        Ditto, but Saudi’s allies (who are also Israel’s allies) would never allow it.

      • Taxi
        July 26, 2011, 1:17 am

        Yeah sure longlive, LOL, let us know how your BDS Saudi Oil campaign goes down in the western world.

        Sure I’ll sign your petition against Saudi “racism”, heck I’ll even pay you just to play the cymbals in your anti-Saudi marching band.

        Soon as I’m finished with bringing down Apartheid israel, I’ll have all the time in the world to help you out with your saudis project, okay?

    • Koshiro
      July 25, 2011, 11:22 am

      You open the same logic then of equating Palestinian civilians with the terrorism of Hamas

      Who was it again who had the gall to call the flotilla organizers “enablers of Hamas”?

      Don’t equate Israel with the gunman.

      Strawman much?
      Nobody equates Israel, all of it, with this terrorist. But anybody with some intelligence and open eyes can draw a connection between pro-Zionist, anti-Arab, anti-Islam right-wing ideologists inside and outside Israel and this pro-Zionist, anti-Arab, anti-Islam right-wing terrorist. For Daniel Pipes and his vile ilk to go “who, me?” now adds insult to injury.

      And let’s face it: At the end of the day you are closer to Daniel Pipes’ ideology than to the young victims’ on Utøya.

      • hophmi
        July 25, 2011, 4:03 pm

        “And let’s face it: At the end of the day you are closer to Daniel Pipes’ ideology than to the young victims’ on Utøya.”

        You guys are much closer to Pipes than liberal Zionists like Richard and I are. That’s the irony. You’re the ones suggesting that the gunman’s misguided support for Israel is significant. It’s this website where commentators post articles from antisemitic websites suggesting a link between the gunman and the Mossad. You’re the ones who shout people like me down when we suggest that there is an atmosphere of hate in the Palestinian territories that leads to suicide violence and the rocketing of civilians.

        This is place to go for broadbrush attacks on Israel and Israelis, a society that is the most multicultural in the Middle East. Pipes is a broadbrush guy. You are broadbrush people as well. People like Richard and I see nuance. People like you guys and Pipes do not.

        And by the way, Ellen, it’s clear that Europe is much more fearful than America is. That’s why Angela Merkel and David Cameron have declared an end to multiculturalism and called it an utter failure, why headscarves have been banned in France, why Le Pen is ascendant in France and Wilders ascendant in Holland, and why the Danish People’s Party is ascendant in Denmark. Europe’s a cesspool of right-wing reactionaries right now, and just like last time, the left-wing activists are their unwitting partners in crime.

        And part of the reason it got that way is because Labor movements like those in Norway became unable to draw a distinction between Islam the peaceful religion and the hate-filled version as practiced by Islamic militants. No one here has a problem saying right-wing Christian fundamentalism is dangerous or right-wing Jewish fundamentalism is dangerous. But you all seem to fail when it comes to saying the same thing about Islam and admitting the obvious – radicalism is a much bigger problem in Islam today than in the other monotheistic religions.

        The right-wingers want to tar all Muslims with the same fundamentalist brush. You guys want to do the opposite, and make apologies for fundamentalism or understate its challenge or call anyone who raises a concern about Islamic fundamentalism an Islamophobic bigot. Whether you do it out of political correctness or out of WWII European guilt or out of some BAMN principle, or whether you’re a fundamentalist yourself, or whatever your motivations are, it certainly does not help the Palestinians, and it doesn’t help Europe.

      • kapok
        July 25, 2011, 5:51 pm

        Last time, my eye! The Lefties fought pitched battles during the Weimar period with the Germany for the Germans crowd. They weren’t partners , unwitting or otherwise.

      • Mooser
        July 25, 2011, 6:02 pm

        “You’re the ones who shout people like me down…”

        Hophmi, I really hate to point this out, you an’ me being landsmann and all, but the only thing shouting you down is the voices in your head.
        What next, are you going to cut yourself shaving and claim Mondoweissers tried to slash your throat?
        Ask for leave, or vacation, or whatever you guys get. Tell your supervisor the strain is causing auditory hallucinations.

      • Chaos4700
        July 25, 2011, 7:22 pm

        You’re not a liberal, hophmi! Nice try.

      • longliveisrael
        July 25, 2011, 8:25 pm

        hophmi, bravo, well said

      • James
        July 25, 2011, 8:29 pm

        apply for stress leave, lol… i think mondoweiss will grant it!

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 9:11 pm

        You guys are much closer to Pipes than liberal Zionists like Richard and I are. That’s the irony.

        Wy to go Hophmi. That miond boggling argument is right up there with Witty’s claim that WE put Likud in power.

        You’re the ones suggesting that the gunman’s misguided support for Israel is significant.

        Yeah, it must suck to realize that Israel once again has inspired terrorism.

        People like Richard and I see nuance.

        Oh my Hophmi. Are you really comparing yourself to the illiterate and incoherent Witty?

        No Hophmi, you don’t see nuance, you spin your wheels when it suits you.

        As for Europe, no they are nowhere nearly as fearful as Americans on Israelis. They’ve been through much worse. Merkel and Cameron have declared multiculturalism was a failure, they did not call an end to it. Both countries continue to allow immigration of all ethnicities.

      • eljay
        July 25, 2011, 9:31 pm

        Mods, please delete my comment of July 25, 2011 at 9:18 pm.

        My anger and disgust at hophmi’s previous post got the better of me, and the language of my reply is inappropriate.

        Thanks.

      • Shingo
        July 26, 2011, 1:09 am

        Well said Eljay,

        Expect Hop, eee and RW to now proceed to whine, bitch and moan about how your post was full of insults, but you said what needed to be said.

        I have given up trying to be polite to these bottom feeders. This is not a discussion about baseball, but their indifference to the urgency of the matter is simply disgusting.

        Like Marie Antoionette, Witty and now Fred and DavidSC, want to engage in fluffy rhetoric, and insisting on polite discourse while behind them, we are witnessing Israel murdering and crushing the Palestinians in real time.

        And then they have the chutzpah to be insulted when we slap them across the face and insist they wake up from the Ziocaine induced coma.

      • Shingo
        July 26, 2011, 1:16 am

        I disagree Eljay.

        Your reply was most appropriate. Some things need to be said withuot the veneer of false politeness.

      • Ellen
        July 26, 2011, 4:07 am

        There is so much stretching, leaping and emotional, even narcissistic, nonsense in your post one could spend a day or two answering it.

        I’ll try to keep it simple:

        You’re the ones who shout people like me down when we suggest that there is an atmosphere of hate in the Palestinian territories that leads

        Hate is in all societies. It is the division, occupation, stealing, assaults, judicial repression and sieges onto civilians by Israel motivated by fear and also hate (yes hate) that feed the cycle. Do you have an ability for self reflection? As it is said, “it takes two. ”

        …it’s clear that Europe is much more fearful than America is. That’s why Angela Merkel and David Cameron have declared an end to multiculturalism and called it an utter failure, why headscarves have been banned in France, why Le Pen is ascendant in France …

        This is Hasbara talk 101 “It is clear…it is a fact.” No, Europe is not much more fearful than America. Americans are fed a diet of “everyone hates us…..be afraid….terrorists will come get us. Close the borders. Homeland Security, they hate us…..terror, terror, terror!”

        Europe’s a cesspool of right-wing reactionaries right now,…

        Hysterical imagery used to make a phony point.

        Europe recently introduced the Shengen agreement to open borders, and Merkel and Cameron did not call to end multiculturalism. The only sources twisting their words (supporting united multi racial societies that row a boat together, as Cameron said) into that are extremist hate sites promoting war and intolerance, and sites like “ISRAPUNDENT”
        link to israpundit.com. Think about it. (It is interesting that you also feed this. )

        Many European countries do struggle with integrating groups into society (but the reasons are deep, historical and structural, starting with school systems designed more for social engineering….but that is another topic.)

        France banned headscarves, just as it has banned all religious symbols in public spaces. A crucifix would not be found in a school room or may displayed outside of a garmet. It might be bone-headed but it is not out of fear. (Remember, Europe has a history of repression by Religious institutions over society.)

        Right wing parties are not in ascendancy in Europe. You make another hysterical fear-driven distortion. And LaPen’s has been struggling a flat line for almost 30 years. It’s National Front got its greatest turn out of just 15% with low voter turn out. This “great success” has been attributed to feeding Islamaphobia. (Fear works as a motivator as we know and the tone of your post also attempts here.)

        Parties like that and Wilders are simply there — like the dog in the neighborhood barking in the night. You can be afraid of the dog, but they come and go. We all have them and they are annoying. The system allows their voice, but they are not in any significant ascendancy as you hysterically claim.

        Religion is used by extremist for social and political agendas. Everywhere.

        …radicalism is a much bigger problem in Islam today than in the other monotheistic religions.

        This is another Hasbarism: “But they are even worse!”

        It may be at this moment in time, especially for those who use it for political ends, playing fear and ignorance. Assuming it is, it is not solved with more separation walls, demonetization and fear. To do that is to go along in the game dictated by “radical fundamentalist.” Do do that you are then working WITH them.

        Fear and ignorance is overcome with exchange, education, communing with the MAJORITY non radical elements. The voice of the radical dog then becomes fainter, insignificant and goes away. Try it, you might like it.

      • eljay
        July 26, 2011, 7:46 am

        >> Shingo: Your reply was most appropriate. Some things need to be said withuot the veneer of false politeness.

        I agree, but since there is a comments policy on this site and since neither the message nor the language of my reply was going to penetrate any thick, Zio-supremacist skulls, I figured it was best deleted.

        That being said…
        >> hophmi: You’re the ones who shout people like me down when we suggest that there is an atmosphere of hate in the Palestinian territories that leads to suicide violence and the rocketing of civilians.

        A comment like this is pure garbage.

        You – and your co-collectivists – are not so stupid that you cannot comprehend that “an atmosphere of hate in the Palestinian territories” is the product of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians followed by Israel’s decades-old and ON-GOING campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.

        You are, however, utterly hateful and immoral because you support the massive injustices being perpetrated by Israel against the Palestinians, and because you continually choose to blame the Palestinians for Israel’s NON-DEFENSIVE criminal activities – activities it can halt at any time, but which it chooses not to.

        And, finally, seeing you whine, bitch and moan about your victimhood – in the same thread, sometimes in the same post, in which you promote your Zio-supremacist agenda – is as disgusting as it is pathetic.

        “People like you” are a disgrace to humanity.

      • hophmi
        July 26, 2011, 7:59 am

        LOL, is this your polite version? You guys have never been polite; don’t start trying now.

        You serve a reactionary agenda that glorifies violence so long as it’s committed by the right people.

        You seem oblivious to the ill logic of your argument. Palestinian violence is an outgrowth of a hate movement in Palestinian society. It is the hate of a non-Muslim entity in the Middle East, and it is present in other Arab states. Terrorists did not come from Palestine alone. They’re present throughout the Middle East and places like Pakistan, where there is no occupation.

      • hophmi
        July 26, 2011, 8:18 am

        “Hate is in all societies. It is the division, occupation, stealing, assaults, judicial repression and sieges onto civilians by Israel motivated by fear and also hate (yes hate) that feed the cycle. Do you have an ability for self reflection? As it is said, “it takes two. ”

        Do you self-reflect Ellen? If you do, ask yourself why you hate Israel so much that you would suggest it bears responsibility for some crazy guy in Norway to shoot dozens of young people.

        “This is Hasbara talk 101 “It is clear…it is a fact.” No, Europe is not much more fearful than America. Americans are fed a diet of “everyone hates us…..be afraid….terrorists will come get us. Close the borders. Homeland Security, they hate us…..terror, terror, terror!””

        Excuse me. It is not America that has banned the headscarf (France) or passed laws placing limits on the construction of mosques (Switzerland) or declared multiculturalism an failure (England, Germany) or voted for parties of ultranationalist groups in number over 10 percent (France, Austria, Denmark, Holland). It is Europe. I don’t know what America you live in, but it isn’t mine.

        “Many European countries do struggle with integrating groups into society (but the reasons are deep, historical and structural, starting with school systems designed more for social engineering….but that is another topic.)”

        Oh, there are “deep, historical and structural” reasons. Gimme a break. The deep historical and structural reasons are that Europeans are 90 percent homogenous, and have a historical fear of the other that they mask with political correctness these days.

        “France banned headscarves, just as it has banned all religious symbols in public spaces. A crucifix would not be found in a school room or may displayed outside of a garmet.”

        Yeah, sure. But the law targets headscarves. That’s the point of the law. Face coverings aren’t an issue for anyone else.

        “It might be bone-headed but it is not out of fear. (Remember, Europe has a history of repression by Religious institutions over society.)””

        You’ve got to be kidding.

        “Right wing parties are not in ascendancy in Europe.”

        Geert Wilders’ party got 15.5% last time. Some are now predicting Le Pen is going to make it into a runoff. And Le Pen’s presence has forced Sarkozy to move to the right.

        “We all have them and they are annoying. The system allows their voice, but they are not in any significant ascendancy as you hysterically claim.”

        As in, you’re understating the problem because it’s an embarrassment to you and everything is consensus driven so it will be OK.

        “This is another Hasbarism: “But they are even worse!””

        No, it is not. There is no mainstream movement in Judaism favoring the killing of civilians as a religious aim or religious duty with the goal of world domination. And if you argue that there is among the settlers a hatred of Palestinians, then I’ll leave it to you to argue that there is any comparison between a few thousand settlers who hate Palestinians and tens of millions of adherents of fundamentalist Islam who hate the West, excuse the blowing up of children, and do exactly what this crazy Norwegian did, except that they do it worldwide and kill greater numbers of people. There’s no us and they. There’s only they.

        “Assuming it is, it is not solved with more separation walls, demonetization and fear. To do that is to go along in the game dictated by “radical fundamentalist.”

        To respond to suicide bombing with flowers is also to go along with the radical fundamentalist game, except that you lose many more people in the process.

        “Fear and ignorance is overcome with exchange, education, communing with the MAJORITY non radical elements.”

        So how come you favor policies like BDS that reject communing between non-radical Israelis and Palestinians?

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 26, 2011, 8:38 am

        “You’re the ones who shout people like me down when we suggest that there is an atmosphere of hate in the Palestinian territories that leads to suicide violence and the rocketing of civilians.”

        No one shouts you down, we shout at you and will continue to do so until you open your eyes to what causes any “atmosphere of hate” — namely the actions of the Zionists and the Zionist state. That’s all.

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 26, 2011, 8:57 am

        “You serve a reactionary agenda that glorifies violence so long as it’s committed by the right people.”

        Says the defender of the glorious Nimrods of the IDF…

        “Palestinian violence is an outgrowth of a hate movement in Palestinian society.”

        Which is a reaction ot the invasion and theft of their land by European Jews.

        “It is the hate of a non-Muslim entity in the Middle East, and it is present in other Arab states.”

        What is hated is Israel’s actions. The Arab league has a plan out there for full acceptance of Israel that’s waiting for Israel to accept it (which they are too stupid to accept)… They “hate” Israel so much that they are dying to solve the very problem in a way that gives Israel everything they’ve always claimed they want…

      • eljay
        July 26, 2011, 9:01 am

        >> LOL, is this your polite version?

        Yes, “LOL”, that’s the polite version.

        >> Palestinian violence is an outgrowth of a hate movement in Palestinian society.

        Like I said, the message won’t penetrate any thick, Zio-supremacist skulls. Israel f*cks the Palestinians over for 60+ years, but it bears no blame for any of the anger, hatred or resentment it generates. Instead, everything – including Israel’s on-going offensive (i.e., non-defensive) actions – are all the fault of some magically-generated “outgrowth of a hate movement in Palestinian society”.

        You’re as ridiculous as you are hateful…but I expect you’re proud of that.

      • Shingo
        July 26, 2011, 9:01 am

        Palestinian violence is an outgrowth of a hate movement in Palestinian society.

        That’s baltantly false Hop and you know it. Palestinian violence is an outgrowth of pccupation and ethnic cleansing, or if you like the hate movement in Israeli society.

        It is the hatred of being occupied, pressed, humiliated, dissenfranchised, and absued. It’s a hatred we all share.

        Terrorists did not come from Palestine alone.

        No, it was introduced to Palestine by your kindred spirits.

        They’re present throughout the Middle East and places like Pakistan, where there is no occupation.

        In Pakistan, the US is conducting drone strikes, and as for the rest of the ME, terrorism exuists where occupation and/or foreign military vioence does does.

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 26, 2011, 9:03 am

        “Some are now predicting Le Pen is going to make it into a runoff.”

        Yeah, because the guy who would have faced Sarkosy in a run-off (and probably won) (allegedly) decided to (allegedly) rape a maid in New York City. If DSK had kept his (alleged) penis in his (alleged) pants, Le Pen would be no where to be found, and Sarkosy wouldn’t be looking at a probable 82-17% re-election victory. Like the last time a LePen and the Front National made the run off.

      • Shingo
        July 26, 2011, 9:16 am

        Like I said, the message won’t penetrate any thick, Zio-supremacist skulls. Israel f*cks the Palestinians over for 60+ years, but it bears no blame for any of the anger, hatred or resentment it generates.

        Hence my point that polite discourse is wasted on these bottom feeders.

      • mikeo
        July 26, 2011, 9:40 am

        Hophmi, your comment shows you haven’t got a f**king clue about European attitudes. Face it, there was a cultural similarity when emigration to Israel first occurred because those immigrants were mostly Europeans. Now after 50 odd year of separate evolution the Israeli culture is riddled with cancerous intolerance as all settler societies seem to be. You might play in our football and basketball league to make yourselves feel more “Western”, but your culture is uniquely Israeli, it’s nothing like most of europe. Dream on…

      • Koshiro
        July 26, 2011, 2:07 pm

        You guys are much closer to Pipes than liberal Zionists like Richard and I are.

        Let us first address the nice little goalpost shifting: You are still a lot closer to Pipes than to the Norwegian victims.
        Anyway: Pipes considers himself a moderate. His “I’m not against Islam, only against radical Islam” spiel is the same as yours. He is against BDS, against giving the Palestinians meaningful sovereignty, he makes excuses for the settlers and wants them to stay where they are, thinks Israeli needs always trump Palestinian rights, is of course opposed to the right of return etc… I don’t need to continue. You just go and name your concrete positions, I’ll show you where they are in sync with Pipes’.

        And part of the reason it got that way is because Labor movements like those in Norway became unable to draw a distinction between Islam the peaceful religion and the hate-filled version as practiced by Islamic militants.

        And there we go. Took you a little longer to get to the part where you blame the victims than I’d expected, though.

        You guys want to do the opposite, and make apologies for fundamentalism or understate its challenge or call anyone who raises a concern about Islamic fundamentalism an Islamophobic bigot.

        A nice little strawman to top it off, why not? Actually strawman is too soft. It’s a flat-out lie and nothing else.

    • Cliff
      July 25, 2011, 11:27 am

      He did not equate Israel to the gunman, Witty. Stop polluting Mondoweiss with your lies.

      You need to get a job in real life, and stop this pathologically-motivated thread-hijacking. Get a life.

      And, for the record, there is no ‘live and let live’ Zionist ideology.

      We live in the real world, and you live in a world of convenient historical revisionism and hypotheticals.

      Israel delegitimizes itself just fine on its own. Israel kills innocent people just fine on its own. Israel is criminal just fine on its own.

      It does not need this gunman.

      The point is that the gunman expressed solidarity with Israel, and Zionism and Islamophobia are intertwined. There are plenty of examples.

      The only defense you have is to present a irrelevant, and non-existent brand of Zionism.

      You yourself are a racist and Nakba-denier.

      Who do you think you are to lecture this Norwegian? You have some gall, to spout your hypocrisy at people who are enduring hardship, when you yourself are nothing more than a political opportunistic chump.

      • eljay
        July 25, 2011, 11:41 am

        >> You yourself are a racist and Nakba-denier.

        RW doesn’t deny the Nakba, he merely justifies it as “necessary”. :-)

    • James
      July 25, 2011, 12:42 pm

      see if you can get your zionists friends to not equate terrorism with islam richard… it sesms they had a hand in the early assumption this was some arab or al qaeda type terrorist act…

      sorry to inform you, but the gunman associated himself with israel.. he probably would have fit right with the west bank settlers that you continue to support…

    • justicewillprevail
      July 25, 2011, 2:57 pm

      So you repudiate Zionism, then, as one of the most destructive and racist ideologies we have witnessed, and one which has infected many right wing movements around the world. And why do you constantly equate actions to support Palestinians with support of Hamas, a feeble and false analogy, a move your now apparently against when the logic is applied to Israel? Try looking in the mirror before coming here and lecturing everybody.

    • LeaNder
      July 25, 2011, 5:03 pm

      Richard, that a couple of years ago you argued that: segregated [ethnic] nation states is the trend of the future pointing to Yugoslavia. Remember?

  2. richb
    July 25, 2011, 10:45 am

    Breivik himself equated ordinary Palestinians with the terrorism of Hamas. He was the one who brought up Israel.
    link to google.com

    • eee
      July 25, 2011, 11:21 am

      Next time there is a terrorist attack by a Muslim and the attackers bring up Islam as one of their motivations, I will be happy to remind you of your senseless arguments.

      • Cliff
        July 25, 2011, 11:40 am

        You can bring it up all you want. It won’t make a difference.

        For one, Islam does share blame. All religious fanaticism can be traced to the text to an extent. There is also geo-political factors.

        If you want to draw parallels then you should think about it, instead of reflexively issuing a superficial gotcha-comment.

        Go ahead eee – actually try to make a nuanced argument. Being the putz that you are, NO one here should expect anything beyond the one-liner you wrote above.

      • longliveisrael
        July 25, 2011, 8:30 pm

        Cliff, you ask someone to make a nuanced argument, then you call him a putz. So, who’s the person with the lack of nuance and tolerance?

        You guys amaze me. You consider yourselves defenders of freedom, which includes freedom of thought and speech, yet when there are a very few posters here who have a different view, your best response is to resort to infantile name calling.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 9:02 pm

        Since when does freedom of speech mean giving up one’s own freedom to call out idiots like yourself?

      • Eva Smagacz
        July 26, 2011, 4:53 am

        Shingo, I owe you my first smile since Friday.

      • Mooser
        July 26, 2011, 10:18 am

        “Cliff, you ask someone to make a nuanced argument, then you call him a putz.”

        A “putz”! Oh my God, I wonder where he learned a filthy word like that. There there, “Longlive Israel” try not to cry, dear. A “putz”! Why I juist can’t imagine the hate it takes to call someone a “putz”.
        Oh look Cliff, just look at what you did to the poor dear “longlive Israel”

      • richb
        July 25, 2011, 12:03 pm

        Of course you also do it before the attacker’s motivation are identified and you got the giant oops of the media “experts” on Friday morning. That’s the problem in the nutshell. People like you “remind” us how Islam is attacking us when they really aren’t. Other people hear that “reminder” and take it to heart like Breivik. So, please save us the “reminders” and there might be more people breathing in the air in the morning.

      • Ellen
        July 25, 2011, 12:14 pm

        eee, I do not mean to be rude, but ‘gotta ask after reading your post three times.

        Are you speaking to yourself?

      • eee
        July 25, 2011, 12:50 pm

        Did you guys even read Richb’s argument?
        What does it matter that Breivik mentioned Israel? It matters as much as Bin Laden mentioning Islam, which is none at all. Just as Bin Laden’s actions have nothing to do with Islam, Breivik’s actions have nothing to do with Israel. Radicals and extremists always find a hook to put their hats on.

      • richb
        July 25, 2011, 1:34 pm

        Did you guys even read Richb’s argument?

        Obviously you didn’t. Others here got what I was and more importantly wasn’t saying very easily. This isn’t difficult. Try harder.

      • richb
        July 25, 2011, 1:55 pm

        Radicals and extremists always find a hook to put their hats on.

        True. bin Laden hung his hat on Islamic monoculture and Breivik hung his hat on Judeo-Christian Zionist monoculture. Both these hooks support their respective hats quite naturally given the underlying violence of the respective worldviews. It’s also fair to say that these violent subcultures are a small minority in the Islamic world and in Europe (both for Christians and Muslims). It’s not true, however, to say this about either Israel or America.

      • annie
        July 25, 2011, 1:55 pm

        What does it matter that Breivik mentioned Israel? It matters as much as Bin Laden mentioning Islam, which is none at all. Just as Bin Laden’s actions have nothing to do with Islam, Breivik’s actions have nothing to do with Israel.

        maybe it should read like this:

        “What does it matter that Breivik mentioned Israel? It matters as much as Bin Laden mentioning Israel, which is none at all. Just as Bin Laden’s actions have nothing to do with Israel, Breivik’s actions have nothing to do with Israel. ”

        oh wait? bin laden did mention israel.

        i think it is more appropriate to say:

        “What does it matter that Breivik mentioned Israel? It matters as much as Bin Laden mentioning Israel, which is a lot. Just as Bin Laden’s actions have something to do with Israel, Breivik’s actions have something to do with Israel. “

      • Chaos4700
        July 25, 2011, 7:23 pm

        Just so we have it on record eee, you think children in Gaza deserved to be executed in military offensives because they were Muslim?

  3. PissedOffAmerican
    July 25, 2011, 10:45 am

    “You open the same logic then of equating Palestinian civilians with the terrorism of Hamas, done in the name of Palestinians”

    Hmmmmm. I don’t recall you criticizing eee or Fred for doing that. Am I missing something here?

    • eee
      July 25, 2011, 11:19 am

      The Palestinians elected Hamas. Who in Israel elected or even heard of this Norwegian crackpot?

      • Mooser
        July 25, 2011, 11:36 am

        “Who in Israel elected or even heard of this Norwegian crackpot?”

        Be patient! I’m sure we will find out within the next two weeks.

      • Cliff
        July 25, 2011, 11:42 am

        Israel has elected former terrorists like Begin. Israel commemorates its terrorist past.

        Israel passes racist laws. Israel occupies and colonizes.

        Furthermore, the argument is not that Israeli = Norway shooter.

        It’s Zionism. And that’s 100% correct. Your ideology means a Jewish majority. You picked a place where none existed. To maintain that majority, you need to subjugate the non-Jews in the region.

        And guess what? It’s happening right now. It keeps happening. You and the Norway shooter blame it on Islamism, clash of civilians, antisemitism, etc.

      • mig
        July 25, 2011, 11:49 am

        ” Who in Israel elected or even heard of this Norwegian crackpot?”

        ++++ You ? Now ? With our statement ?

      • eee
        July 25, 2011, 12:52 pm

        Cliff,

        If you want a war against Zionism, just say so. That would be the most stupid strategy in the world. Slater and Avnery are also Zionists, lest you forget that.

      • Cliff
        July 25, 2011, 4:21 pm

        The only war is that which Zionism wages against the Palestinians.

        Palestinian land is being stolen. Palestinians are being subjugated. THEY are being colonized. Not you. The war has been going on for a long time now.

        You don’t occupy and STEAL land with an enemy population living upon it, without war. In this case, the mere existence of the Palestinian people on this land your State and ideology covets, IS WAR.

      • American
        July 25, 2011, 7:12 pm

        I though the zionist had already declared war on anything in the world that isn’t 100% for zionist and Israel.
        We are already at war…a war of words.
        You’re wrong, we’re right, you’re gonna lose.

      • Chaos4700
        July 25, 2011, 7:25 pm

        Sooner or later Israel is going to start bombing UN facilities willy-nilly. Oh wait… my mistake. THEY ALREADY DO.

      • RobertB
        July 25, 2011, 4:55 pm

        Israel elected four prime ministers who were terrorists.

        Ben Gurion, Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir & Ariel Sharon.

        The attack on the King David Hotel was carried out by zionist terrorists dressed as Arab milkmen….

        Notice the date July 22 !!!

        Click on link below for further details:

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        The Bombing Of The King David Hotel

        July 22, 1946

        “The King David Hotel explosion of July 22, 1946 (Palestine), which resulted in the deaths of 92 Britons, Arabs and Jews, and in the wounding of 58, was not just an act of “Jewish extremists,” but a premeditated massacre conducted by the Irgun in agreement with the highest Jewish political authorities in Palestine– the Jewish Agency and its head David-Ben-Gurion. According to Yitshaq Ben-Ami, a Palestinian Jew who spent 30 years in exile after the establishment of Israel investigating the crimes of the “ruthless clique heading the internal Zionist movement,” The Irgun had conceived a plan for the King David attack early in 1946, but the green light was given only on July first. According to Dr. Sneh, the operation was personally approved by Ben-Gurion, from his self-exile in Europe. Sadeh, the operations officer of the Haganah, and Giddy Paglin, the head of the Irgun operation under Menachem Begin agreed that thirty-five minutes advance notice would give the British time enough to evacuate the wing, without enabling them to disarm the explosion. The Jewish Agency’s motive was to destroy all evidence the British had gathered proving that the terrorist crime waves in Palestine were not merely the actions of “fringe” groups such as the Irgun and Stern Gang, but were committed in collusion with the Haganah and Palmach groups and under the direction of the highest political body of the Zionist establishment itself, namely the Jewish Agency. That so many innocent civilian lives were lost in the King David massacre is a normal part of the pattern of the history of Zionist outrages: A criminal act is committed, allegedly by an isolated group, but actually under the direct authorization of the highest Zionist authorities, whether of the Jewish Agency during the Palestine Mandate or of the Government of Israel thereafter.

        The following is a statement made in the House of Commons by then British Prime Minister Clement Attlee: On July 22, 1946, one of the most dastardly and cowardly crimes in recorded history took place. We refer to the blowing up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. Ninety-two persons lost their lives in that stealthy attack, 45 were injured, among whom there were many high officials, junior officers and office personnel, both men and women. The King David Hotel was used as an office housing the Secretariat of the Palestine Government and British Army Headquarters. The attack was made on 22 July at about 12 o’clock noon when offices are usually in full swing. The attackers, disguised as milkmen, carried the explosives in milk containers, placed them in the basement of the Hotel and ran away.”

        link to informationclearinghouse.info

      • Fredblogs
        July 25, 2011, 10:02 pm

        Two problems with your analogy. These men were elected as individuals who were _former_, not present members of what for the sake of argument we can call terrorist groups. Hamas was and is an active terrorist group when it was elected and to this day. Even by your characterization, Israel elected former terrorists, not present ones.

        Second, the King David hotel was a legitimate military target. It was the British military intelligence HQ. They had just captured files that identified a large number of Jewish fighters who were fighting for independence and fighting to prevent the Arabs from killing Jews. They would have crippled the resistance movement and left far more Jews vulnerable to Arab attacks.

        The bombers gave warning so that people could be evacuated, but the British in their typical arrogance just laughed off the warning. As the target was a legitimate military target, and the objective was to destroy critical intelligence files, not to kill people, this was not a terrorist attack. This was a vital military operation carried out in a way to attempt to minimize casualties.

        In fact, the British were responsible for the loss of life in two distinct ways. First, they should not have placed a military target in a civilian hotel. Second, they should have evacuated when they were warned about the bomb.

      • Shingo
        July 26, 2011, 1:28 am

        These men were elected as individuals who were _former_, not present members of what for the sake of argument we can call terrorist groups.

        Bullshit. These men were leaders of terrorist group, who togther with the Haganah, carried out terrorist attacks. The King David Hotel wasn’t the only hotel that was bombed. In January 1948, the Hangahah blew up the Old Ottoman House in Jaffa, the Sariah, killing 26 and then the Semaramis Hotel, killing 20 Palestinians.

        The Hanaganh went on to become rebranded as the IDF.

        Second, the King David hotel was a legitimate military target.

        False. The British were there to fulfill a mandate to create a Jewish State in Palestine. They were the recognized authority in Palestine and the terror groups had no justification for attacking them, especially seeing as the British were killing Palestinians on their behalf.

        They were not fighting for independence, they were atatcking the British in the hope of driving the British out of palestine, so that they could then get busy with removing the Arabs.

        This policyu had been in place since 1942, when the Zionists held a meeting at the Biltmore Hotel in NY., attended by Ben Gurion and Chaim Wiesman. At that conference, the Zionist Orgnization decided to to change allegiance and look to the US for future support, not Britain. The Zionist leadership saw the writing on the wall, that the British Empire was comming to an end, and were looking for a new host on which to bleed. The worked to win over political leaders with Zionist Capital and propaganda. They submitted that it would commit itself to back American interests.

        It was then that the Zionist leadership decided it was time for the British to go.

        As the target was a legitimate military target, and the objective was to destroy critical intelligence files, not to kill people, this was not a terrorist attack

        Right Fred. And the suicide bombers weren’t really tryign to kill civliansm, they were just targettring busses and pizza bars.

        Even in Israel, it was recognized as a terrorist attack you friggin idiot. And no, it had nothign to do with destroying critical intelligence files – it was retribution for the British aprephending Zionist terrorists and murderers.

        Winston Churchill, then former PM, commented about the terror attacks saying that:

        “They have shocked the world. They have affected strongly people like me, who in the past, have been consistent friends of the Jews and constant architects of their future. However, the British refrain from a violent response to acts of Zionist terrorism, even though the were seventyfive thousand British soldiers in Palestine”

        There was nothing vital about the attack, and far from minimiing casualties, it killed Jews as well as British troops.

        In fact, the British were responsible for the loss of life in two distinct ways. First, they should not have placed a military target in a civilian hotel. Second, they should have evacuated when they were warned about the bomb.

        Rubbish. It was not a military target to begin with, becasue the British were the legal and recgonized authority in Palestine, and were fulfilling their mandate to create a Jewish homeland.

        The Zionist terrorist extremsis (ie. the leadership) just wanted the British out of the way so that they could take whatever they wanted.

      • tree
        July 26, 2011, 6:05 am

        This just illustrates your gullibility when it comes to anything to do with Zionists or Israel. If the terrorists who planted the bomb in the King David Hotel were trying to destroy the captured files, which everyone at this point seems to agree on, why in the world would they give a warning which would allow the British to remove the files as well as people from the Hotel? The fact is that they didn’t give a warning, any more than they gave a warning when they blew up the Semiramis Hotel, killing civilians, or when they captured British soldiers and tortured and killed them, and then booby-trapped their bodies, or when they planted bombs in Arab markets, again killing civilians, or on the railroads, or threw a bomb at Arab workers waiting outside the Haifa Refinery, or robbed a bank or extorted funds from Jews to support their terrorism. They never once gave any mind to saving civilian life, and they didn’t do that at the King David Hotel, either. But it was the 9-11 of its day, and the backlash was such that they had to come up with an excuse and a justification. so the warning that wasn’t is their lie.

        They had just captured files that identified a large number of Jewish fighters who were fighting for independence and fighting to prevent the Arabs from killing Jews.

        Jeez, you’ll swallow just about anything won’t you? The captured files actually showed the connection between the Jewish Agency and the Irgun and other terrorist gangs, at a time when the JA was trying to claim ignorance and non responsibility for the terrorism. This was 1946, Sherlock, there weren’t a lot of “Arabs killing Jews” at that point. Most of the terrorism was coming from the Zionist side, with Zionist Jews killing Arabs and the British and occasionally a recalcitrant Jew who wasn’t gong along with the program(or pogrom)>

      • tree
        July 26, 2011, 6:11 am

        And P.s>, if the King David was a legitmate target then so was the Alfred Murrah bldg and the World Trade Center, which housed the FBI and the CIA respectively. In other words, your argument is bullsh*t.

      • RobertB
        July 27, 2011, 1:51 am

        fredblogs…Are you having problems with the truth/facts regarding your beloved zionist terrorists/terrorism & their killing trails in Palestine?

        It seems that you are deceptively attempting to shift the blame on the British…How clever…of you! LOA…!!!

        The “ocean of zionist lies” that you have been brainwashed with are being exposed on a daily basis on many of the internet blogs.

        Here is some more truth from Yitzhaki. Click on link below for the rest:

        {Yitzhaki is a lecturer in the Bar Ilan University [Tel Aviv] in the Faculty of Eretz Yisrael Studies and is also senior lecturer in the field of military history in IDF courses for officers. In the sixties he served as director of the IDF archives within the framework of his IDF service in his capacity as historian.}

        @@@@@

        The Massacres of 1948

        Not Only Deir Yassin

        Yitzhaki assembled all the testimonies and documents concerning the subject matter and waited for the right time to publish. “The time has come,” he says, “for a generation has passed, and it is now possible to face the ocean of lies in which we were brought up. In almost every conquered village in the War of Independence, acts were committed, which are defined as war crimes, such as indiscriminate killings, massacres and rapes.I believe that such things end by surfacing. The only question is how to face such evidence.”

        According to Yitzhaki, about ten major massacres were committed in the course of the War of Independence (i.e. more than fifty victims in each massacre) and about hundred smaller massacres (of individuals or small groups). According to him, these massacres had an enormous impact on the Arab population, by inducing their (departure) from the country.

        Yitzhaki: “For many Israelis it was easier to find consolation in the lie, that the Arabs left the country under orders from their leaders. This is an absolute fabrication. The fundamental cause of their flight was their fear from Israeli retribution and this fear was not at all imaginary. From almost each report in the IDF archives concerning the conquest of Arab villages between May and July 1948 – when clashes with Arab villagers were the fiercest – a smell of massacre emanates. Sometimes the report tells about blatant massacres which were committed after the battle, sometimes the massacres are committed in the heat of battle and while the villages are “cleansed.

        link to azvsas.blogspot.com

      • Chaos4700
        July 25, 2011, 7:24 pm

        Israel elected Likud. And Kadima. And every other racist, militant Israeli terrorist politician that you’ve ever had. Call me when people start killing Israeli children by the hundreds because of who you voted for, eee. Then we’ll talk.

  4. dimadok
    July 25, 2011, 10:55 am

    Thank you Richard. Generalization and making overreaching assumptions can go both ways. As another example of it, Brejvik makes Putin as the example of good strong leader, with strong stands on Chechen terror and vakhabites in Russia. Does it mean that Russians are supporting his murders? As a reminder to readers here, Russia and Norway have urgent issues between the countries, resulting in diplomatic confrontations and open conflicts. Maybe it was Russian SVR who conspired with Brejvik to stur the Norway out of its stands. Just think of that for a moment. It is equally wrong as the connection with Israel

    • Cliff
      July 25, 2011, 11:31 am

      The killer equated Palestinians to Hamas, just as Dick Witty does when he blames Hamas for the halt in the peace process (scam) as if Hamas has ANY power.

      This is the same Richard Witty who simultaneously revises the historical record/downplays/outright denies the Nakba and equivocates. Comparing the removal of illegal Jewish colonists to the Nakba.

      There is a connection. Israel is a racist apartheid State. It’s supporters in the mainstream regularly promote a clash of civilizations concept regarding the West and Islam.

      Israeli society discriminates against it’s Arabs. Israeli mainstream pundits, politicians, religious figures regularly call for the expulsion of the Arab minority.

      There are ENDLESS examples of the connection of ideology between the killer and Zionism and Israel.

      Don’t be dumb. In fact, your crocodile tears are best represented by the comments section over at YNet and Haaretz.

    • richb
      July 25, 2011, 11:40 am

      Wow. From the Plum Line this morning, emphasis mine. Note the parallel with the Hasbara here.

      Pamela Geller, who along with Professional Islamophobe Robert Spencer has been active in opposing the construction of mosques in the U.S., wrote: “This is just a sinister attempt to tar all anti-jihadists with responsibility for this man’s heinous actions.” Spencer, for his part, wrote: “as if killing a lot of children aids the defense against the global jihad and Islamic supremacism, or has anything remotely to do with anything we have ever advocated.”

      Most of Geller and Spencer’s blogging consists of attempts to tar all Muslims with the responsibility for terrorism. At CPAC last year, Geller and Spencer drew a large crowd for their documentary referring to the proposed community center near Ground Zero as “the second wave of the 9/11 attacks.” Yet they’re now pleading for the world not to do what they’ve spent their careers doing — assigning collective blame for an act of terror through guilt-by-association. What’s clear is that they understand that the principle of collective responsibility is a monstrous wrong in the abstract, or at least when it’s applied to them. They are now begging for the kind of tolerance and understanding they cheerfully refuse to grant to American Muslims.

      These bloggers are not directly responsible for the actions of Anders Behring Breivik. But make no mistake: Their school of analysis, which puts the blame on all Muslims for acts of terrorism perpetrated by Islamic extremists, has been fully discredited — by their own reaction to the Oslo attacks. While it’s obvious that few if any of them will take this lesson to heart, the rest of us should — terrorist acts are committed by individuals, and it is those individuals who should be held responsible.

      Yes, only the terrorists are responsible for their acts. However, the irresponsible and inflammatory rhetoric that helped motivate the terrorist worldview is contemptible.

    • MarkF
      July 25, 2011, 1:14 pm

      More damage control from dime-a-dock..

      The guy used stuff from David Horowitz’s Frontpagemag site in his manifesto. Israel didn’t push the guy, but all signs point to the rabid neocons and their hate speech as an influence. These folks, Horowitz, Geller, Rubin, May, they’re responsible for more American deaths than any Islamic terrorist.

      If they actually believe what they write, they would put their money where their mouths are. They’d be sending their own children to fight and die in the Middle East, but we know that’s never going to happen.

    • Shingo
      July 25, 2011, 5:35 pm

      Maybe it was Russian SVR who conspired with Brejvik to stur the Norway out of its stands.

      Care to name any pro Rissian or pro Pitin web sites that featured him as a guest blogger and held him up as an expert?

      • dimadok
        July 25, 2011, 10:02 pm

        Are there any Israeli sites? And now some reading for the night cap:
        link to themoscowtimes.com

        link to nytimes.com

        link to thestar.com

        Norwegian mass killer’s manifesto hails Hindutva

        link to thehindu.com

        link to ibtimes.com

      • Shingo
        July 26, 2011, 1:15 am

        Are there any Israeli sites?

        Sorry, I can;t seem to find the colums in any of thse publication where Brejvik was featured as a guess blogger or columnist.

        Am I missing something, or have you been drinking? What exactly is in your night cap Diamok and when do you start drinking it?

        Norwegian mass killer’s manifesto hails Hindutva

        What pro Hindutva blog or paper did Brejvik write for?

      • dimadok
        July 26, 2011, 6:59 am

        Rear the lines thoroughly, please. His manifesto uses all kinds of phylosophies and not just the Zionist, as been speculated here.

      • Shingo
        July 26, 2011, 7:46 am

        His manifesto uses all kinds of phylosophies and not just the Zionist, as been speculated here.

        He mentions Israel 360 times in the space of 1,500 pages. That makes Zionism a core aspec to his phylosophy. No surprise seeing as they all invomve mass murder of unarmed civilians.

  5. gingershot
    July 25, 2011, 11:37 am

    It’s pretty clear to my mind that Breivik was attacking the AUF as a Pro-Palestinian organization, amongst other things. I think it takes almost a significant willfulness to not understand it as such

    Given his ‘Israeli Settler Philosophy’ and admiration of Anti-Arab Zionism as a whole – down to a fairly sophisticated view of Avigdor Lieberman Yisrael Beitenu Party – isn’t it pretty darn likely that this attack can be seen as an attack on liberal Pro-Palestinian advocacy?

    I think it’s entirely possible that the reason he choose the AUF was precisely for this reason.

    This guy just basically enacted the same kind of Anti-Palestinian rhetoric we hear 24/7 from Israel, her Neocons, AIPAC and the rest of the Israel Lobby

    • James
      July 25, 2011, 12:48 pm

      “This guy just basically enacted the same kind of Anti-Palestinian rhetoric we hear 24/7 from Israel, her Neocons, AIPAC and the rest of the Israel Lobby”

      i agree.

      • Fredblogs
        July 25, 2011, 10:07 pm

        Then you are just as wrong as the person you are agreeing with is. No mainstream Israeli organization calls for the murder of innocent people just because they politically support the Palestinians.

      • Shingo
        July 26, 2011, 2:46 am

        No mainstream Israeli organization calls for the murder of innocent people just because they politically support the Palestinians.

        Nice to see how you reached for the qualifier “mainstream”.

        But seeing as Tizak Shamir was elected to the office of Prime Ministers, it coudl be argued that the murder of Bernadotte was indeed publicly endorsed by Israel.

      • Chaos4700
        July 26, 2011, 3:06 am

        Not to mention Sharon. And Netanyahu. Hell, every prime minister of Israel is a veteran of some civilian slaughter or another. Even Yitzhak Rabin, and he was the very best Israel had to offer.

      • Fredblogs
        July 27, 2011, 3:15 pm

        Sharon was guilty of not anticipating that Christian Arab allies of Israel would slaughter Muslim Arabs at Sabra and Shatila. He didn’t order it, and didn’t know it was happening until it was too late. He wasn’t even in Lebanon at the time. As for Netanyahu, what slaughter are you accusing him of?

      • Donald
        July 27, 2011, 3:59 pm

        Sharon bombed the hell out of Beirut and other parts of Lebanon, which killed a lot more civilians than died at Sabra and Shatila. And not anticipating the Phalangists would slaughter Muslim Arabs is ridiculous (whoever allowed them in). They’d done it before. In America it would be like giving the KKK automatic weapons and asking them to patrol a black neighborhood.

      • annie
        July 27, 2011, 4:15 pm

        anticipating? that was the plan wasn’t it?

      • tree
        July 27, 2011, 4:50 pm

        Sharon was also the commander of the Israeli attacks on the Gaza refugee camp of El-Bureig and the Jordanian village of Qibya in 1953, both of which killed scores of unarmed civilians. Qibya got him promoted.

        He was also the commander of the batallion that executed Egyptian POW’s in 1956 (civilian road workers that had the curse of being in the wrong place at the wrong time) when Israel first invaded the Sinai.

        In the Sabra and Shatilla massacre, the Israeli Kahan Commission found Sharon personally and indirectly responsible for the massacre. (In legal terms, “indirectly” meant that he didn’t pull the trigger himself). Israel was in complete control of that part of Beirut where the massacre took place. Sharon claimed that 2000 Palestinian fighters remained in the camp, even though all fighters had left for Tunis under a US brokered agreement. He claimed that Palestinians were responsible for the murder of Gemayel, and then he allowed 200 Phalangist into the camp for 2 days, with the IDF providing illuminating flares, so the Phalangists, and observing Israelis, could see what they were doing. Everyone knew what was happening there after the first few hours. The Israelis did nothing to stop it, not even opening the entrances of the camp so that the victims could escape. That’s what the Kahan commission meant by Sharon’s personal and indirect responsibility.

        Sabra and Shatilla were perfectly in keeping with Sharon’s war criminal past. He’d killed hundreds of civilians before then in his long military career. There is no reason to play Pollyana here, Fred, and pretend an innocence that Sharon never had.

        Here’s a compellation of some of Sharon’s atrocities:

        link to guardian.150m.com

    • Djinn
      July 25, 2011, 2:31 pm

      It’s pretty clear to my mind that Breivik was attacking the AUF as a Pro-Palestinian organization, amongst other things. I think it takes almost a significant willfulness to not understand it as such

      Breivik was pro Zionist that’s true however he railed FAR FAR more against ‘Marxists’ (a term he clearly had no understanding of whatsoever but he’s hardly alone on that one) and ‘leftists’ more generally than he did in praise of Israel.

      Making the connection between the virulent Islamophobia spouted by Israel (and it’s supporters elsewhere most clearly in the US) and it’s constant attempts to push the bullshit & dangerous clash of civilizations meme in the west is perfectly logical. To claim the reason he chose to target the youth arm of the Labour Party *specifically* because a *section* of it was anti Zionist and pro BDS is at this point, an assumption which ignores the makeup of the party. He chose them because he saw the Labour Party as traitors to Norway because of immigration yes (a dog whistle for Muslim immigration almost everywhere these days) but ALSO because of monetary policy, EU membership and a host of other typical right wing shite.

  6. Cliff
    July 25, 2011, 11:38 am

    The pathetic attempt by Richard Witty to whitewash Israeli racism and the in-built Islamophobia and hate within the Zionist ideology is predictable.

    A desperate troll like him should be expected to swarm over the Norway issue to do damage control for Israel.

    This is not complicated. We can discuss racism in Israeli society. The multitude of ways it manifests. Institutionally and culturally. We can cite systematic studies on this issue, using Yesh Din or the various Arab minority rights groups in Israel. We can reference the historical record.

    And, we can use the words of prominent Zionist leaders themselves to put the nail in the coffin.

    The attempt to dismiss all of this and isolate the gunman’s inspiration and motives and the entire ordeal to solely the Norwegian body politic is bull.

    If that is the approach, then ignore all of Europe. Ignore any other outside influence. Ignore everything outside of Norway. If you choose to ignore the Zionist connection, then you should likewise ignore everything else not specifically going on inside Norway.

    Too bad that’s not how it works though. People are influenced by ideas, and the ideas he was influenced by existed not only in Norway, but outside of it as well.

    I have to say, the Zionists and other racist Islamophobes elsewhere are real desperate if they think they can whitewash this. It will not go away.

  7. MRW
    July 25, 2011, 11:48 am

    Thanks, Tord.

  8. Taxi
    July 25, 2011, 12:11 pm

    Thank you Tord Steiro for bringing us word directly from Norway.

    Please let me first express my sincere deep sorrow for the tragic loss of life that your good nation has suffered. Here in far away California, a kinda warm Norway of the USA if you like (cuz progressive here etc), I saw eight young people on the beach on Saturday, 6 blonde and 2 brown-skinned, lighting tea-candles at sunset, sitting in a circle, quiet, forlorn… till their tea-lights went out just past midnight. I live on the beach and I could see little flames shinning out for hours from my window – while I was blogging as it happened. Anyway, in the morning when I went out for my usual jog, I ran past their circle of sorrow and they’d cleared out everything except for a miniature Norwegian flag and a sprig of wilted jasmine that lay beside it. I gotta tell you I was really moved by this and with a heavy heart I carried on with my jog, deeply saddened for your good nation.

    To suddenly and violently lose so many beautiful and bright and conscientious young people is unspeakably heartbreaking – and truly worrisome (more on that in a later post).

    Dear Tord Steiro, I would like you to know that in your difficult hour, you can rely on the love and support of millions of anonymous friends around the world. Solid friends that your nation has earned over many generations through good deeds and valuable contributions to humanity. We really are a global village now, whose citizenry are waking up to their commonalities and friendships. (Thank you internet!).

    Indeed, as individuals and as a nation, you have a huge and difficult task ahead of you. And we trust that your violent enemies will not retard or win an inch over your fine example of a civilized people and nation. Hold tight to what you know is good and right. This is what will help you through your tremendous spiritual and socio-political crisis. This is how you overcome, this is the root and the fruit of progress.

    Prayers, love, solidarity – to all the good people of Norway.

    • Ellen
      July 25, 2011, 12:23 pm

      Taxi, my heart joins your well articulated sentiments. Thanks for saying this so well to Tord Steiro and the people of Norway.

    • richb
      July 25, 2011, 12:46 pm

      Thanks, brave Norwegians, for showing the world the way out. Breivik was clear. His main beef with Norway was that it was the epitome of multi-culturalism. Breivik stood for monoculture. Violence come from monoculture whether it was Christian or Islamic or Jewish. The selfsame religions when put into a multicultural framework become part of the solution and not the problem. Many people wrongly interpret that we are anti-Judaism or pro-Islam. Rather, we oppose Zionism because it represents monoculture Judaism and/or monoculture Christianity. We also oppose monoculture Islam. Thank God that monoculture is nowhere near the last word in any of the great monotheistic religions and both your old and new citizens represent this truth.

      Please know that Christians, Jews, and Muslims are right now praying for your country and her people.

      With Love and Affection and Deep Condolences.

      • Djinn
        July 25, 2011, 2:52 pm

        Nicely said richb

  9. annie
    July 25, 2011, 2:04 pm

    Islamophobes, not Islam, is the major threat to our way of life.

    i agree. here in the US too.

    • Djinn
      July 25, 2011, 2:56 pm

      Even if you wanted to argue the relative ideologies (I wouldn’t obviously but theres a few usual suspects here that do) the fact the the Islamophobes are the ones in positions of power and influence should make that blindingly obvious. Not that logic & rationality are in strong supply these days.

      • annie
        July 25, 2011, 3:57 pm

        i don’t think everyone in a position of power is an islamophobe but as long as they are facilitating those who are we’re in danger.

  10. Mndwss
    July 25, 2011, 3:30 pm

    Til Ungdommen (Surrounded by Enemies) by Nordahl Grieg 1936:

    Translation from:

    link to en.wikipedia.org

    Grieg:

    Faced by your enemies
    On every hand
    Battle is menacing,
    Now make your stand

    Fearful your question,
    Defenceless, open
    What shall I fight with?
    What is my weapon?

    Here is your battle plan,
    Here is your shield
    Faith in this life of ours,
    The common weal

    For all our children’s sake,
    Save it, defend it,
    Pay any price you must,
    They shall not end it

    Neat stacks of cannon shells,
    Row upon row
    Death to the life you love,
    All that you know

    War is contempt for life,
    Peace is creation
    Death’s march is halted
    By determination

    We all deserve the world,
    Harvest and seed
    Hunger and poverty
    Are born of greed

    Don’t turn your face away
    From needs of others
    Reach out a helping hand
    To all your brothers

    Here is our solemn vow,
    From land to land
    We will protect our world
    From tyrants’ hand

    Defend the beautiful,
    Gentle and innocent
    Like any mother would
    Care for her infant.

    • eee
      July 25, 2011, 4:36 pm

      What a beautiful poem!
      I am sure it inspired Vidkun Quisling.
      link to en.wikipedia.org

      • Mndwss
        July 25, 2011, 5:39 pm

        A few decades ago jews were in trouble in Europe.

        Now muslims are in the same position in Europe

        eee please help them. Before they die.

      • Fredblogs
        July 25, 2011, 10:11 pm

        Not remotely in the same position. There is no organized genocide of Muslims going on in Europe. In fact, most political parties don’t even call Muslims on it when they act in extremist ways, whether it is rioting in Paris, vandalizing Jewish sites, or calling for the extermination of the Jews.

      • Shingo
        July 26, 2011, 2:49 am

        In fact, most political parties don’t even call Muslims on it when they act in extremist ways, whether it is rioting in Paris, vandalizing Jewish sites, or calling for the extermination of the Jews.

        That would be becasue the riots in Paris were economic, not relgious.

        And that woudl also be becasue the vandalizing Jewish sites usually turns out to be perpetrated by Jewish extremists trying to pin the blame on Muslims.

      • Mooser
        July 25, 2011, 6:14 pm

        “What a beautiful poem!
        I am sure it inspired Vidkun Quisling.”

        I’m sorry, “eee” I don’t quite understand your comment. Care to explain?

      • Mndwss
        July 25, 2011, 6:15 pm

        Vidkun Quisling was executed.

        Why is Yahoo still alive?

      • Chaos4700
        July 25, 2011, 7:26 pm

        What, you expect compassion from an Israeli? Good luck with that.

  11. longliveisrael
    July 25, 2011, 8:40 pm

    I find it quite funny that you are all jumping to the defence of Islam, when in Islamic societies, the first to be exterminated are the Communists. See Iranian Revolution. Yet, your hatred of Israel and the West is so great, you will endorse the vilest “allies”

    • Shingo
      July 25, 2011, 9:01 pm

      I find it quite funny that you are all jumping to the defence of Islam, when in Islamic societies, the first to be exterminated are the Communists.

      The Communists were not exterminated in the Iranian Revolution.

      Yet, your hatred of Israel and the West is so great, you will endorse the vilest “allies”

      What could be more vile than the Saudi leadership and Mubarak, both of which are close friends with Israel.

      Israel stood shoulder to should with the Saudis when Mubarak was on the ropes.

      • Chaos4700
        July 26, 2011, 3:09 am

        I’m pretty sure it was the democrats who were exterminated in Iran, and that was in 1954, care of, for the most part, the English speaking world (of which Israel is ostensibly a part, given how many Israelis know English apparently.) I’m pretty sure the communists were eradicated by the shah too. That’s what totalitarian fascists do — like for instance, banning people from even talking about putting pressure on a government via BDS to leverage for reform and social justice.

      • longliveisrael
        July 26, 2011, 4:03 pm

        Shingo, so easy to prove that you have no clue

        After repressing the organisation of the People’s Mojahedin, and other left groups, Islamic regime turn its attention toward the Tudeh Party of Iran and the Organisation of Iranian People’s Fadaian (Majority). On 6th February 1982 with the help of CIA’s list of the Tudeh Party members to the Islamic Republic and information suplied by British government on the party, branding those identified as “Soviet agents”, the Iranian government charged the Party’s leadership with “spying”, and sent them to prison. In later consecutive attacks, the Iranian government arrested more than 5,000 members and cadres and supporters of the Party, and declared the Tudeh Party of Iran outlaw. The U.S. concern was that a post-Khomeini Iran might move to the left.

        The Party confronted grave difficulties; its organisation collapsed, many of its members and cadres were forced to emigrate, and general confusion prevailed. In spite of these problems, the period did not last long, and the Party, convening its 18th plenum in December 1984, succeeded in taking a step in reorganising itself both within and outside the country.

        The Islamic Republic started the trials of 101 members of the underground military wing of the Tudeh Party and sentenced 10 of them to death, and the rest to total imprisonment terms exceeding 700 years. But Noureddin Kianouri first Secretary of the Tudeh Party, Ehsan Tabari (The great theoretician) and many other leaders collaborated with the Islamic Republic and lived.

        link to iranchamber.com

      • Shingo
        July 26, 2011, 4:47 pm

        longliveisrael,

        Your argument ahas already been debunked.

        You Hasbrats are like peopel who get told a joke and only get it ion Monday.

        The US overthrew Mossadegh on the grounds that he was natioalizing Iran’s oil and perceived to be a communist sympathiser. Then along came their puppet tyrant, the Shah, who actually cleaned out most of the communists in Iran. The Islamic fundamentalists combined with Soviet-sponsored communists to overthrow the Shah you dolt.

        As your cut and paste suggests, “The U.S. concern was that a post-Khomeini Iran might move to the left. “ In other words, they were concerned that Khomeini would allow the communists back in to Iran.

        All your link proves is that the Communists were in dissaray. They were certainly not wiped out and murdered by the thousands. Only 10 were sentenced to death.

        In the context of a revolution, that’s remrarkable insigni.

      • longliveisrael
        July 26, 2011, 6:20 pm

        Saudi leadership and Mubarak, close friends with Israel.

        Oh, you learn something new every day on MW. Saudi close friends with Israel? I must have missed the building of the Saudi embassy in Israel.

    • MarkF
      July 26, 2011, 8:26 am

      I find it quite funny that you neocons lump Israel in with the West. After all, whats more socialist than a state that begs for welfare from a true western country so they can have universal health care?

      Heck, that’s not conservative (or Western) now, is it?

    • Woody Tanaka
      July 26, 2011, 8:50 am

      “I find it quite funny that you are all jumping to the defence of Islam”

      I find it quite horrific that, given the taint and attack that Judaism and its practitioners have suffered though the centuries, that someone whose nickname contains the word “Israel” would have a hard time understanding that people are capable of distinguishing between bad actors acting in the name of a religion on the one hand, and innocent practitioners of that religion on the other.

      Or maybe you’re just an idiot.

  12. Elliot
    July 25, 2011, 11:24 pm

    Thank you Tord for clarifying to Mondoweiss that the massacres were an attack on multiculturalism which is connected to Islamophobia.
    So the analysis that puts I/P as the motivation for the murders is actually the nonsense it appears to be.
    Oh, and for saying that earlier, yours truly was labeled as a “Hasbarist” and horror of horrors, a “Zionist”.
    You just gotta love mob mentality.

  13. Shingo
    July 26, 2011, 2:51 am

    Thank you Tord for clarifying to Mondoweiss that the massacres were an attack on multiculturalism which is connected to Islamophobia.

    Which in turn is exploited by Zionists to justify the expulsion of Palestinians and the occupation.

    So the analysis that puts I/P as the motivation for the murders is actually the nonsense it appears to be.

    It’s not the motivation, but the attacker cited Israel as his inspiration.

    • Elliot
      July 26, 2011, 3:49 pm

      It’s not the motivation, but the attacker cited Israel as his inspiration.
      Would you post the link? All I’ve read speaks of the usual White racism. I’m pleased that Alex Kane dialed back his “nexus of Breivik and Zionism” to a more moderate message.
      Didn’t stop the Mondo Mob from piling on against me for daring to speak the heresy that Zionism is not the root of all evils.
      This ugly, mob mentality also emerged after the Mavi Marmara attack. It discredits a site that is otherwise notable for critical thinking and ability to think outside the mainstream.

      • RobertB
        July 27, 2011, 1:13 am

        Elliot…wrote

        It’s not the motivation, but the attacker cited Israel as his inspiration.

        “Would you post the link? All I’ve read speaks of the usual White racism.”

        ~~~~~~~~~~

        News Brief
        7/24/2011 10:13:00 PM, Tammuz 22, 5771
        Report: Norwegian Shooter Loves Israel

        “Anders Behring Breivik, the man being held for Friday’s shooting at an island off the coast of Norway, expressed anti-Islamic sentiments in English in the past and was an enthusiastic supporter of Israel, according to a Sunday-evening report by Channel 2 television.

        Breivik’s 1,500 page book attacks the European political establishment because he sees it as an ally of the Muslims against Israel, and praises Israel for not giving Muslims the same rights they enjoy in different European countries.

        Breivik says, “The time has come to stop the stupid support of the Palestinians…and to start supporting our cultural cousins – Israel.” The sight of the massacre was a camp which demanded, days earlier, that Israel “finish the occupation.” Anti-Israel, pro-Arab signs were hung in the camp.”

        link to israelnationalnews.com

  14. Cliff
    July 26, 2011, 4:45 am

    Hohphmi lies, saying:

    The right-wingers want to tar all Muslims with the same fundamentalist brush. You guys want to do the opposite, and make apologies for fundamentalism or understate its challenge or call anyone who raises a concern about Islamic fundamentalism an Islamophobic bigot. Whether you do it out of political correctness or out of WWII European guilt or out of some BAMN principle, or whether you’re a fundamentalist yourself, or whatever your motivations are, it certainly does not help the Palestinians, and it doesn’t help Europe.

    Wrong. No anti-Zionist on Mondoweiss has ever downplayed Islamic extremism.

    I don’t even know what the hell you’re babbling about. I mean, what example do you have where we whitewashed Islamism? No one here supports Hamas. No one here supports the Hamas charter. No one here supports suicide bombing.

    What people here do say is talk about the geopolitical variables that influence terrorism. This is what RACISTS, like YOU ignore.

    You want to pin it all on Islam. And that’s the point, you don’t distinguish between Islam and Islamic extremism.

    You characterize the Nakba as a mere product of war. It was a systematic ethnic cleansing carried out by both the Israeli army at the time, and the Jewish terrorist groups.

    It was not benign and not a side-effect.

    Zionist leaders were preaching ethnic cleansing. It was in-built to Zionism, to remove the indigenous population.

    And then, it happened.

    You whitewash it because, if it’s significance is relegated to ‘mere product of war, benign, unaccountable’ then no one bears responsibility and there is no connection to be made to Israeli policy in the present. No connection means no ulterior motives.

    You’re a pathological liar, hophmi and narcissist. You’re not a liberal by any stretch of the imagination.

    How many times have we documented Richard Witty’s bullshit? If the guy weren’t a Zionist, would you even agree with his argumentation style?

    Vague. Sweeping generalization. Equivocation. Empty platitudes. No citations. No sources. Conjecture. etc.

    You reflexively agree with that nutjob because he is prolific and ignores criticism. He doesn’t debate – he spams and advocates.

    We take the time to go through the record – the best of us that is, like Hostage and others.

    Do you EVER debate them? What Zionist here cites the documentary record to the extent that Hostage does? What Zionist here is as sincere in their patient commentary as Shmuel?

    NONE. You’re asking for respect, implicitly, by exalting your liberal cred and deriding us as Robert Spencers and Pam Gellars.

    Who here blames all Jews for Israel? Who blames Judaism for Israel?

    We talk about that racist apartheid State, and the ideology of Zionism.

    It’s you who pins it all on religious extremism, and then the religion in and of itself.

    You have no nuance and anyone can look at your posting history which consists of nothing more than attempts at turning-the-tables (without any sources of course, because once-again, you’re SIMPLY a racist and a liar).

  15. Cliff
    July 26, 2011, 5:28 am

    From Hebrew YNET, translated by Jews Sans Frontiers:

    Comment section:

    1. And in the mosque there won’t be some ceremony?
    2. It’s fun and warms the heart to see them crying!!!!
    3. Go to hell. Haters of Jews/Israelis, anti-semites busy with the problems of others all day—here you got some too. [signed Zionist]
    4. I have no identification with an anti-Semitic country that leads to the hatred of Israel. Not happy, not sorry.
    5. All in all, what they asked for is what they got!!!!
    6. [in Norwegian.] Serves you right, you Nazis.
    7. He is a hero, kill all leftists, expel all Muslims.
    8. European efficiency.
    9. It’s only a matter of time until an Israeli rightwinger will do something similar.
    10. My heart with the families of all the victims. I wish you will never know more sorrow and I wish all the wounded will heal as quickly as possible and will put this tragedy behind them. Condolences and sympathy from Israel. [Norwegian and English]
    11. I have hope too… that you have many more days of mourning and tears.
    12. Feel a little bit of what we feel here all the time, maybe now you’ll understand what it is, terror.
    13. The ugly Israeli continues to talkback. Shame on you, you bunch of people who rejoice in the suffering of others dancing on the blood. It’s a shame that you even hold Israeli IDs.

    link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com

    • Shingo
      July 26, 2011, 6:38 am

      From Hebrew YNET, translated by Jews Sans Frontiers:

      Witty’s beautiful jewel is all it’s spleandor.

  16. Citizen
    July 26, 2011, 6:58 am

    Meanwhile, normal life goes on in Israel; here, we have a look at the romance developing between the cashier and the bagger at the local grocery store: R U a cashier or bagger? Race, class, & Israel: link to t.co

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