Siegman: Israel always wanted territory not peace, and US is its ‘captive’

Israel/Palestine
on 193 Comments

Zaid Jilani and Ali Gharib at Think Progress interview Henry Siegman, former head of the American Jewish Congress, on the Palestinian statehood resolution and the failure of the peace process:

Siegman: [T]the United States has taken the position that the only way to make any progress in this situation is a renewal of the peace process, getting [Israeli Prime Minister] Benjamin Netanyahu and [Palestinian Authority President] Mahmoud Abbas to talk to each other. If there is anything to be learned from years of disappointment and failure, it’s that the so-called peace process is simply a vehicle for Israel to pretend there is some potential for progress even as on the ground they are making it impossible because of their settlement project. There is a basic dishonesty here. The United States, instead of saying, “This is a fraud,” says instead Israel wants to see a two-state solution, and thus provides a cover for Israel to expand its settlements on the ground and make an outcome absolutely impossible.

So it’s in that sense that I’m saying the U.S. is the major obstacle. Because for years the assumption has been that the United States is uniquely in a position to bring about an agreement because of its leverage with Israel. But it turns out the U.S. is captive to Israel’s plans.

As a snapshot, where do you see things? Do you think the Palestinians can get a resolution recognizing their statehood through the U.N.?, The question is: Even if they do get it through, what have they got?

Nothing will change on the ground as a result of the vote at the U.N. The U.N. can’t force Israel to do anything, and the U.S. certainly won’t do so, so why are the Israelis so upset about this? Why are they running around the world asking people to vote against this? Because it’s a vote that affirms a border. That, too, is why Netanyahu went wild when President Obama called for a border based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps. He called Obama before his speech and tried to convince him not to say it. That’s unprecedented.

The reason Palestinians are going ahead with this even though they know nothing will change on the ground in the short term is that Israel will be put on notice that the international community endorses a border on the 67 lines with territory swaps.

…Only when the cost gets serious enough will Israel make a deal and set that border. Indeed, the international community has tried to impose a cost, but the United States has prevented it.

But America’s ability to provide cover for such Israeli behavior will increasingly diminish. That’s one of the consequences of the Arab Spring. Some of the dictators who have been dancing to the American tune won’t be doing that any longer — which is something that Israelis have to think about as well.

…The reality is that Israeli governments — even before Bibi Netanyahu — have opted for territory over peace. From the very beginning in 1967, Israel’s goal has been to prevent a border being drawn between them and the West Bank. The goal has been to retain permanent control over the West Bank and Gaza. Israeli governments — and especially the current one — believe that peace is not nearly as important as territory….

I think the Palestinians have a shot at getting the Gen Assembly to affirm their right to statehood based on the ’67 borders subject to land swaps. They do have a shot at it even if they do not get as much support from Europeans as they are hoping to get. ..

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

Other posts by .


Posted In:

193 Responses

  1. Kathleen
    July 16, 2011, 10:27 am

    “If there is anything to be learned from years of disappointment and failure, it’s that the so-called peace process is simply a vehicle for Israel to pretend there is some potential for progress even as on the ground they are making it impossible because of their settlement project. There is a basic dishonesty here. The United States, instead of saying, “This is a fraud,” says instead Israel wants to see a two-state solution, and thus provides a cover for Israel to expand its settlements on the ground and make an outcome absolutely impossible. ”

    This is exactly what our dear deceased friend Art Gish (who went to live with the Palestinians for over a decade every winter). He would often say “Israel does not want peace they want more territory” The illegal settlement building has never ever stopped.

    link to palsolidarity.org

    • seafoid
      July 16, 2011, 1:46 pm

      Yes, but where do the Israelis think this road is leading?
      They don’t want to even see the Palestinians but they really should look up from their property boom and celebrity TV shows for a moment and try to think ahead…

    • PissedOffAmerican
      July 16, 2011, 10:56 pm

      Does this “Witty” character ever actually say anything? All his “suggestions” and advocations are ethereal, and dependent on Israeli motives that do not exist. He suggests a course that Israel refuses to take, in an effort to insinuate “good faith” on the Israeli’s part, where none exists. Its a smoke screen, that always leads back to the contention that it is the Palestinians that are intransigent, and if only they’d negotiate reasonably, peace would flower.

      Its bullshit. Its the same old crap, the same old script, the same old play for time.

      Its all about playing the clock out. A long term land grab, while simultaneously demoralizing the Palestininians, wearing them down, depriving them of their futures through a purposeful dismantling of the basic foundations of successful societies. Education for the youth, health care, basic sanitation infrastructures, the ability to manufacture competitively and export goods….all purposely undermined by a carefully thought out long-term PLAN to eventually arrive at a final solution to the “Palestinian problem”.

      Its despicable. It only lacks ovens and gaseous showers. And we are complicit.

      • Cliff
        July 16, 2011, 11:24 pm

        Exactly. He never SAYS anything. He just spams.

        Look through his comment history and he does not cite any sources. He frequently misrepresents BDS and other aspects of Palestinian solidarity.

        And for his persistent trolling, Phil saw it fit to grant him a thread! Our very own anti-mascot!

        In any case, as I said – expect more of the same.

        Dick will keep spamming nonsense ignorant of the reality on the ground and the documentary record – and we will keep knocking down his lies with the truth.

        You’ll notice that other dishonest Zionist commentators like ‘jon s’ have congratulated Dick. On what? Can they even decipher what Dick is saying? Even a sockpuppet, troll like Robert Wederine admitted he could not!

        And that’s the point. If you subtract the Zionism from Witty, you’re still left with a style of commentary that is intact. You could change the subject, and apply the same vagueness and abstract statements. It’s a great way to filibuster and waste people’s time.

        But because the Zionists here are mostly racist psychopaths (eee) or incessant whiners, calling everyone a Jew-hater while simultaneously denying the humanity of the Palestinians (hophmi) – Witty comes off as ‘civil’ or ‘polite’.

        In a relative sense – relative to mud – Witty is congratulated by Phil. How is this an honor? It’s pathetic, but that is what identity politics is about here in the US. I suspect, Phil is acknowledging the opposition demographic. So they get a seat, because in spite of having an opinion full of holes, they have…an opinion. Congratulations of having an opinion!

      • CigarGod
        July 17, 2011, 8:46 am

        I think we need a wide variety of practice dummies and Richard provides us with the slippery version.

      • PissedOffAmerican
        July 17, 2011, 12:01 pm

        What astounds me is how shallow one need dig to uncover the truths. The propaganda has become laughable in the ease with which it can be discredited. It certainly drives home how successful the Hasbara and megaphone efforts have been, and is a sad statement on the gullibility of the average American.

        I posted a few days ago about commenting on the “Algemeneir” website. Well, on one particular thread, a poster appeared using the Username “Another Pissed Off American”. He immediately started in with “the Jews” this, and “the Jews” that, while aligning himself with my viewpoints through insinuation. I posted a comment requesting that he NOT attach his badge to my comments, that I disagreed with his use of “the Jews” to describe the policies of the Israeli government, and that I thought his comments were anti-semitic, and unhelpful. I also opined that there was a good chance that APOA was a false flag commentor, and attempting to attach the stigma of anti-semitism to my comments through association.

        Well, guess what? They removed two of my posts from the thread, one that referred to VERY REAL examples of bigoted hate speech, AGAINST MUSLIMS, that were on the site, AND the post where I accused APOA of anti-semitism, and expressed my belief that his posting was done in a false flag manner in order to imply through association that I was coming from a position of anti-semitism. Subsequently I found that I was no longer able to post comments, but that APOA was continuing to post, associating himself to me, with an obviously anti-semitic tone.

        Such transparently SLIMEY tactics, employed by the pro-zionist fanatics, REALLY underscores just how despicable the far right radical zionist movement has become. When one resorts to such tactics, it can ONLY be through the recognition that your core argument, AND the values and motives behind it, are indefensible through substantive argument using truths and moral imperitives.

        To simplify, such tactics are EVIL, and proof positive that the far right zionist agenda CANNOT be defended by people possessing basic integrity or commendable character. I have no doubt that “Witty” finds justification in the use of such tactics in discrediting those who criticize Israeli policy out of humanitarian concern rather than the bigotry driven animous of an anti-semite.

        Its actually quite comical seeing someone like “Witty” nattering on about “civility”, when criticism of Israel seems to bring out the ugliest and most vicious adherents to the status quo and the zionist agenda. Its kinda like “good cop/bad cop”, different approaches to reach the same conclusion. The irony, is that the “bad cop” is usually the most open of the two, and the most revealing as to character, true motive, and purpose. The “good cop”, the civil one, is invariably lying through his teeth.

      • annie
        July 17, 2011, 12:29 pm

        his posting was done in a false flag manner in order to imply through association that I was coming from a position of anti-semitism.

        i’m sorry that happened to you pissed off american. it appears the publication is choosing to provide a platform for a false flag anti semitic operative.

        i had the misfortune of having an impersonator once. they copied my speech and typing habits (no capitols) and then some of their ‘friends’ ‘outed’ me as a sockpuppet. it worked long enough to get rid of me until i threaten to sue to clear my name. or not. but mysteriously that impersonating poster isn’t around i/p any more. were they banned? no mention of that. just keep your chin up and keep telling your truth. they are desperate because they are in a position of justifying apartheid and ethnic cleansing. so it is quite reasonable to assume they will go to drastic measures to silence their critics.

      • stevieb
        July 17, 2011, 8:24 am

        “Its all about playing the clock out. A long term land grab, while simultaneously demoralizing the Palestininians, wearing them down, depriving them of their futures through a purposeful dismantling of the basic foundations of successful societies.”

        That’s everything activists need to know about the Israel plan…

      • Sumud
        July 17, 2011, 8:55 pm

        That’s everything activists need to know about the Israel plan…

        Except that, also, zionists have been trying to wear Palestinians down since 1947/8 and they still haven’t succeeded. They never will, because their attachment to the land is authentic and they hold tight in the most horrendous conditions. This is Palestinian sumud or steadfastness [I chose my MW handle as a tribute and a gesture of solidarity].

        Those enduring the most are in Area C of the West Bank, the 60% of the West Bank designated by Oslo as Israeli-controlled and Israeli-secured. About 200,000 Palestinians in Area C don’t have water on tap and are therefore forced to buy water at inflated prices. Many get by on as little as 20 litres a day, and the IDF regularly destroys any kind of rainwater collection devices set up by Palestinians, from rooftop tanks to in-ground small dams.

        Israel is creating as harsh conditions as possible in Area C so they can herd Palestinians into their bantustans and have the land for themselves. This is ethnic cleansing in the here and now. The ongoing Nakba. Conditions worse than in Gaza for many in Area C:

        AJE: West Bank poor pay heavy price

        Meanwhile the settlers gorge themselves on 300 litres of water a day – and this is all Palestinian water mind you, extracted illegally from the West Bank aquifers by Israeli water authorities, and the much of it piped illegally into Israel in defiance of the Geneva Conventions.

  2. Kathleen
    July 16, 2011, 10:33 am

    “Because it’s a vote that affirms a border. That, too, is why Netanyahu went wild when President Obama called for a border based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps. He called Obama before his speech and tried to convince him not to say it. That’s unprecedented.”

    I thought Bush 41 and Bush 43 had said this?

    “But America’s ability to provide cover for such Israeli behavior will increasingly diminish. That’s one of the consequences of the Arab Spring. Some of the dictators who have been dancing to the American tune won’t be doing that any longer — which is something that Israelis have to think about as well.”

    I have always wondered if Obama’s clear support and our MSM’s continual coverage of the “Arab Spring” (except that is coverage of ongoing Palestinian protest) was Obama’s way of pushing Israel into the corner after they so clearly kicked Obama in the cajones by refusing to co-operate in any way shape or form. What other country that gets such a disproportionate amount of US aid and huge amounts of other funds, military equipment etc continually refuse to give anything back to the US for the support. In fact not only do not co-operate actively undermine US National Security

    • teta mother me
      July 16, 2011, 2:00 pm

      even Seligman is being dishonest with himself. This sentence is fundamentally dishonest:

      “So it’s in that sense that I’m saying the U.S. is the major obstacle. Because for years the assumption has been that the United States is uniquely in a position to bring about an agreement because of its leverage with Israel. But it turns out the U.S. is captive to Israel’s plans.”

      No, the US is NOT the “major obstacle;” Israel is the major obstacle. It is as illogical to say “US is captive” and “US is the obstacle” as it is to say that the Palestinian child who has been strapped to an IDF jeep as the IDF rams a Palestinian crowd, is attacking Arabs. Israel is in the driver’s seat; US is (stupidly) going along for the ride. (diff betw Pale kid & US is US can get our of the car, the kid can’t.)

      What will it take for Israelis to confront the facts with absolute honesty?

      • MRW
        July 16, 2011, 5:36 pm

        teta mother me,

        You’re right. “Israel is the major obstacle. It is as illogical to say “US is captive”….going along for the ride.” You’re absolutely right. And you bring up another point. We allow the I/P discussion to assign or hang blame on third parties, because of “security,” because of the “holocaust,” because of the “Bible,” all elements the gentiles tread softly around so the discussion gets softened.

        The issue is what Israel does. What it chooses to do. What the consequences of what it chooses to do brings about, which is its fault, not ours.

        However, that said, Seligman’s statement was referring to what he said just before, and in that he was right: There is a basic dishonesty here. The United States, instead of saying, “This is a fraud,” says instead Israel wants to see a two-state solution, and thus provides a cover for Israel to expand its settlements on the ground and make an outcome absolutely impossible.

        Because. We may not be able to change Israel right now. But we can change ourselves.

      • stevieb
        July 17, 2011, 8:26 am

        Until Americans are as willing as Zionists are to engage the political process, the Zionists will continue to set the agenda for the U.S government…

  3. seafoid
    July 16, 2011, 12:17 pm

    The problem for Israel with the whole notion of a peace process is once they signed up for it they generated expectations around the world that they meant what they said.

    And they never did. Because Zionism = bad faith

    This comes back to the main dichotomy between how Israel sees the Palestinians and how the world does.
    In the Israeli view the Palestinians are non people who must not be seen.
    The world sees them as ordinary people no different to Jews.

    So the world is expecting Israel to behave decently. And Israel can’t. So far antisemitism TM has been the glue holding the 2 sides together. But Israel has flogged it to death. Fascism TM is a known antidote to antisemitism TM. It is not going to end well for Israel.

    • teta mother me
      July 16, 2011, 2:07 pm

      is there a name for the condition that is going to occur?

      first, people will be unable to formulate the concept that Israel has betrayed the US.

      gradually, the reality will seep in: gawd dammit! How can I have been so easily boonswoggled?

      then people will get mad, at having been betrayed, and betrayed at such a terrible high cost. “Hell hath no fury like a woman (or man) scorned.” Netanyahu has brazenly played the US for a sucker; but he’s not the first Israeli leader to have done so. How will congresspersons react as it gradually becomes clear that they’ve been duped, and that it has cost America its economy and its moral standing in the world, its virtue, and that Americans have killed millions in service of this delusion?

      Is there a way out for Israel?

      • seafoid
        July 16, 2011, 2:43 pm

        There is an urgent need for a book explaining the link between the Likudniks and the war in Iraq, the subsequent failure in Iraq and the consequent decline in US power.

      • stevieb
        July 17, 2011, 8:30 am

        Congress will accept whatever happens to the U.S as long as Israel is OK.

        Think that’s a stretch?

        I don’t.

      • annebeck58
        July 17, 2011, 3:46 pm

        Is there a way out for Israel?
        You are assuming they want a way out.

        I think that is not the case.
        They have us (US) bowing to their every whim, they have Arab states fearing them; why do they want out of this? The only thing I can see them wanting OUT of IS the farce of a peace-process. I mean, I can see why they keep up the farce; but is it any longer necessary? They own us. They run us. We aren’t going to stop supporting them if they no longer show up at the table, are we?

  4. American
    July 16, 2011, 12:18 pm

    “So it’s in that sense that I’m saying the U.S. is the major obstacle.”..(Seigman)

    Delighted to see that someone in a position to know something agrees with me
    US Zionist + collective Jewish holocaust hysteria + propaganda + brainwashing + too much victimhood entitlement and favoritism + political money = political corruption = US enabling of Israel.

    It would take to long to go from the bottom up of the support chain for Israel…so we have to go for the politicians, the group that is suppose to be the ‘gatekeepers” for American interest and make their political servitude to the Zionist fetish a threat to their political careers.

    We have to face the fact that there will ALWAYS be activist groups like “Them” or exile Cubans or Iranians for Freeing Iran by bombing Iran and others who want the US to act for their specific foreign agenda regardless of American welfare or interest.
    Our politicians and leadership are the ones who are suppose to guard against this political influence and activity damaging America.
    They aren’t doing their duty to the US…or even their duty to the world at large as a world leader.
    Get rid of them.

    • James
      July 16, 2011, 2:33 pm

      i agree – seigman gets it in the quote you reference…

      “territory over peace”… that is it in a nutshell… one only has to look at the reality instead of all the talk to see how the peace process has been a distraction away from the reality… talk is cheap and often it is used as cover for something else – in israels case a land grab clear and obvious… the facts on the ground emphasize “territory over peace” to which no one can deny…

      look at the reality instead of what is being said… the us is complicit in condoning israels actions, in spite of all the lovely words to the contrary…

  5. Richard Witty
    July 16, 2011, 12:21 pm

    I disagree with Siegman’s assessment that the equation of pain is what could change things.

    Ultimately, borders need to be consented, and maintained over an extended period as consented.

    I was horribly disappointed, yet again, with the frustration only theme. There was no proposal in his comments, only frustration, and blaming the US.

    It seemed petty to me, desperate rather than constructive, unworthy of a man of his experience.

    There is a path to resolution, if taken in a unified, disciplined, and skillful manner.

    It is two-pronged, one on an Israeli front, one on Palestinian.

    BOTH are electoral, but originate in on the ground relationship-building, and to such an extent that Palestinians are not perceived as enemies, that Israelis are not perceived as enemies.

    And, those actions are rejected by solidarity sadly. Intentional relationship-building is promoted by BDS and here as conspiring with the enemy, when in fact it is asserting one’s dignity, one’s equality in real life.

    • American
      July 16, 2011, 12:31 pm

      I don’t think you get it witty.

      The Israeli stall- talkie -talkie game is over….no one buys it.
      It’s a carnival barker’s come on.

      • seafoid
        July 16, 2011, 2:47 pm

        I agree, American. Especially now the Arabs have given up on it.
        Israel’s proscratination + settlement policy is a fool me once strategy.

        I also think the Zionists are too wedded to the notion that history is finished. This is probably linked to the messianism that drove them to occupy the West Bank. And the belief in Israel as an end state . Rather than a political construct subject to outside forces over which the US has less and less control.

      • American
        July 17, 2011, 1:36 am

        I agree with you also.
        Israel and the zios think it’s over, that they have ‘won’, that they can keep on using the holocaust as an eternal excuse for everything they do and also think their hold on the US and congress is assured and that no one will challenge the US protection of Israel.
        But Israel will go too far, it’s the zio nature now after years of entitlement, and eventually someone(s) will come down on them.
        After that things will change.

      • Citizen
        July 17, 2011, 6:28 am

        Most Jewish Israelis & the Jewish diaspora, at least in the West, do think “It’s over. We won.” But what goes around, comes around. The most obvious modern example of this adage is of course, WW1, “the war to end all wars,” settled things temporarily by war, and this settlement directly seeded WW2.

        Personally, I think it very reasonable to see WW3 on the horizon–it could ignite in September if Bibi N decides to bomb Iran while the Palestinians take their case for statehood “over the top” directly to the UN. There’s no doubt Israel’s top priority is bombing Iran and it’s been itching for that for 15 years.

        It’s important in this context to note that most of the World disapproves of US handling of Iran & I-P Conflict, and that the World trend sees China overtaking US top spot economically: pewglobal.org/2011/07/13/chi…

      • seafoid
        July 17, 2011, 11:37 am

        This is why Zionism is so naive. Did the Byzantines not also think “it is over, we have won”. Did the Mamluks not think they would rule forever? Did Rupert Murdoch not believe until last week that he could do what he wanted in the UK ?

    • justicewillprevail
      July 16, 2011, 12:56 pm

      There you again, making misleading and false claims about BDS. Divisive, unhelpful and promoting the enmity you babble on about. If you go to Israel you are in for a shock, since you write the most ridiculous verbiage about it, completely disconnected from the reality. Your world is fictional.

    • annie
      July 16, 2011, 1:00 pm

      Ultimately, borders need to be consented, and maintained over an extended period as consented.

      bwwwwahhhhhhhh.

      • MRW
        July 16, 2011, 5:37 pm

        Ultimately, borders need to be consented, and maintained over an extended period as consented.

        Just to add to annie’s comment: been there, done that.

    • Koshiro
      July 16, 2011, 1:33 pm

      “that Israelis are not perceived as enemies.”
      As long as Israel continues its occupation and colonization, Israelis are the Palestinians’ enemies. But I guess it makes sense for your peace vision to include a requirement for conscious denial of reality.

      • Richard Witty
        July 16, 2011, 2:15 pm

        So, you think that the force of condemnation and orchestrated isolation will change Israel, more than the reasoning of persuasion?

      • justicewillprevail
        July 16, 2011, 2:40 pm

        Who said it was either/or, apart from you and your obsessive need to misrepresent other’s opinions and actions? You ignore what people say, and then insist on putting words in their mouth, which you then decry.

        Have you tried the ‘reasoning of persuasion’ with Israel? Do let us know the results from your unique powers of reasoning. How could they resist?

      • Cliff
        July 16, 2011, 3:38 pm

        Israel has no reason to compromise.

        While Israel and it’s supporters like you, blame Hamas, you’re still expanding the colonies.

        The very fact that Israel continues to colonize Palestinian land, shows it is not – nor has it ever been, interested in peace.

        The Palestine papers have shown that Israel was not interested in peace, even in spite of the huge concessions the PA was willing to undergo.

        Once again, you spam and filibuster with abstract nonsense and empty platitudes.

        Same thing, over and over and over. Troll.

      • Chaos4700
        July 16, 2011, 3:45 pm

        So let me get this straight, Witty — you’re absolutely supportive of the crippling siege of Gaza and encircling a Palestinian state in a vastly diminished West Bank with Israeli troops permanently, but when it comes to even verbal condemnation and non-military isolation of Israel, that’s something you categorically will not accept?

      • Koshiro
        July 16, 2011, 4:12 pm

        “So, you think that the force of condemnation and orchestrated isolation will change Israel, more than the reasoning of persuasion?”

        Oh, I’m absolutely in favor of persuasion. I just happen to think that hard sanctions, international isolation and political pressure are effective tools for persuading Israel.

      • Hostage
        July 16, 2011, 5:43 pm

        So, you think that the force of condemnation and orchestrated isolation will change Israel, more than the reasoning of persuasion?

        You got that right. If the UN recognizes the 67 borders, the Palestinian’s legal experts will shift into high gear. Like any other sovereign state they will decline the invitation to hold any discussions about “agreed swaps” or “border rectifications” outside the framework of the Permanent International Court of Arbitration. Then they will go after Israel’s foreign assets in courts around the world and seek criminal indictments against the individuals responsible for the joint criminal enterprise that is implanting illegal settlements in its territories. They will join international organizations like the ICC, WTO, and etc. and work through them and the UN to end illegal US-Israeli schemes that interfere with the territorial integrity or political independence of the State of Palestine and intervene in matters which are essentially within its domestic jurisdiction. Courts in other countries and the WTO are past masters at enforcing judgments and trade penalties.

        Once Israel accepts its territorial limits, the guys with PhDs in Economics in Ramallah will use property taxes, income taxes on foreign income, and etc to turn those 500,000 Jewish residents into a revenue stream.

      • MRW
        July 16, 2011, 5:43 pm

        will change Israel?

        Who cares? We’re trying to change the situation for Palestinians.

        We’ll let you change Israel, Witty. You can go over there and give them your speeches about self-governance and that life itself is a stone in one’s shoe, and tell them to work for the best rather than the perfect. And that they won’t get to either if they only adopt the rhetorical perfect.

        And assure them that pressure won’t accomplish that. ONLY mutual respect will, and that you listen for peoples’ experience, in contrast to condemnations, so you want them to adopt that.

        That oughta’ do it. Let us know how you make out.

      • Citizen
        July 16, 2011, 7:21 pm

        The Oracle says, to Witty: “Self-governance is what you do with yourself in the toilet, not what you do to others. And, Grasshopper, Life is the shoe, the stone in it is you.”

      • anonymouscomments
        July 17, 2011, 2:36 am

        “reasoning of persuasion” did not work, but BDS and all the other movements are happy to work with any israelis or jews who are working towards justice. see me in bethlehem if you have any meat to your words, we will go to the AIC cafe (2x a week, with israelis), and protest *with* israelis every week. join, or play the line you played for the last decade. evolve or perish….

      • stevieb
        July 17, 2011, 8:33 am

        Yep. And BDS. And complete rejection from the internatinal community. And then war.

        But that’s OK with you Witty. Whatever it takes, eah?

      • annebeck58
        July 17, 2011, 3:52 pm

        Nice one, Chaos.
        Absolutely valid.

        Reminds me of all of the zuppets (puppets for Zion- yes, it is my own word) who come at me online (everywhere I “go”) to tell me how it’s all the fault of Hamas. These mouthpieces simply don’t seem to comprehend what they are supporting, and how violent the Zionist state truly IS.

      • pjdude
        July 17, 2011, 8:21 pm

        you can’t presuade fanatics. and that what Israelis are. fanatics who believe because they want they have a right to another’s property and rights.

    • Shingo
      July 16, 2011, 7:06 pm

      So Witty doesn’t refute that Israel wants land more than peace, so his only complaint is that Siegmam condems Israelfor it.

      This is the same joker that just posted over a soEn comments demanding that anyone who supports BDS clarify whether they endorse the 1967 borders (which Israel officially rejects) or not.

      Seriously Phil, why is this moron allowed on this forum? He hasn’t posted a coherent PR logic comment in months. Even his fellow hasbrats can’t decode his diatribes any longer.

      It’s time you cut the umbilical cord Phil. The guy has his own blog (which needs desperate attention) and he serves no value whatsoever to this one. The are far more erudite commenters here who are at least prepared to debate the topic (in English).

      • Robert Werdine
        July 17, 2011, 10:25 am

        “Seriously Phil, why is this moron allowed on this forum? He hasn’t posted a coherent PR logic comment in months. Even his fellow hasbrats can’t decode his diatribes any longer. It’s time you cut the umbilical cord Phil…”

        Please don’t do that, Phil. Richard expresses an important viewpoint: support for a 2ss where both Israelis and Palestinians peacefully co-exist. That view is an necessary counter-weight against the growing trend here against it. It is unfortunate that some people (the above-quoted commenter, for example) are unable to disagree with Richard without viciously attacking him, and urging him to be banned.

        Yes, Richard is certainly a welcome alternative to those who, like the above commenter, sully and soil the spirit of true debate here with their crude, heckling jibes against those with whom dare to disagree with them, their vicious ad-hominen attacks, and their disengenuous, misleading, and partisan misreadings of history to advance their slanderous assertions.

        Compared to them, he’s a breath of fresh air.

      • David Samel
        July 17, 2011, 4:50 pm

        Yes, Robert, we wouldn’t want anyone promoting “disengenuous [sic], misleading, and partisan misreadings of history to advance their slanderous assertions. ” Actually, I agree with you that Richard should not be banned, though I also agree with Shingo’s assessment of the vacuous nature of his comments. But then again, I’m generally against banning. There’s only one person I ever recommended should be banned (coincidentally for “disingenuous, misleading, and partisan misreadings of history to advance their slanderous assertions “), and it’s not Witty.

      • Robert Werdine
        July 17, 2011, 6:01 pm

        I guess that would be me! I’m honored.

      • annebeck58
        July 17, 2011, 6:17 pm

        Aww; see?

        Now I am feeling badly for all of my heckling jabs!

        *no, not really…

      • Shingo
        July 17, 2011, 7:21 pm

        Compared to them, he’s a breath of fresh air.

        Very funny Robert,

        Witty’s sole objective is to suck the oxygen out fo every discussion that he can’t stomach.

        Richard expresses an important viewpoint: support for a 2ss where both Israelis and Palestinians peacefully co-exist.

        No, Witty gives lip service to s 2ss, but as with all so called Liberal Zionists, opposes any measures in order to acheve it. This is why he obsesses about Hamas and BDS, and harps on about ambiguuity as to their notuion of broers, while turnign a blind eye to Netenyahu’s rejection of the 1967 border.

        The growing trend against the 2ss is taking place in Israel not here, afer all, the Semptember resolution is aimed at achiving a 2ss and Witty opposes such a move.

        It is unfortunate that some people (the above-quoted commenter, for example) are unable to disagree with Richard without viciously attacking him, and urging him to be banned.

        None of us have any problem disagreeing with Witty, (though like you, most of us are umabel to make sense of his gibberish). The problem we have with Witty is that he doesn’t read (he’s admitted that he only reads headlines) and he makes shit up, so there is no debating him.

        When presented with facts, Witty ignores them, dissapears, and returns to repeat his lies, knowing they are lies. He has admittd that his tribalism prevents him from accepting informtion that contradicts his ideas, hence he has admitted to being incapable of debate.

        Yes, Richard is certainly a welcome alternative to those who, like the above commenter, sully and soil the spirit of true debate here with their crude, heckling jibes against those with whom dare to disagree with them, their vicious ad-hominen attacks, and their disengenuous, misleading, and partisan misreadings of history to advance their slanderous assertions.

        Stop projecting Robert.

        As someone wh introduc himself to this forum by falsely pretending to be an Arab Muslim, you should be the last person to condem others for ad-hominen attacks, and their disengenuous, misleading, and partisan misreadings of history to advance their slanderous assertions.

        Your partisan misreadings of history to advance their slanderous assertions has already been shredded by Hostage.

        Don’t be bitter. Learn from the experience.

      • PissedOffAmerican
        July 17, 2011, 10:20 pm

        “It’s time you cut the umbilical cord Phil”

        Wow.

        I have another suggestion, why not block posters such as “shingo” from contributing, because he advocates treating dissenting opinions in the same manner the zionist sites treat dissenting opinions.

        Lets see, who here wants a blog that consists of “Uh huh, I agree”, “Boy, you said it!!!!”, “Yeah, ya got that right”, “Couldn’ta sed it better meyself, bubba……”

        No thanks. I dig havin’ the Witties and the wackos spewing forth in all their absurd glory. This ain’t ‘sposed to be boring, folks. Can’t we have a little fun with it!

        Bring it on, Witty. Wanna talk about how dumping raw sewage on Palestinan farmland and villages is “an act of defense”?

        Or how ’bout we debate the finer points of how to aim a high velocity tear gas canister at the head of an American art student?

        Or, its been a while since I’ve heard anything about trying to get those nasty heathen Ethiopans to quit procreating and soilin’ humanity’s gene pool. Wanna give it a shot?

      • tree
        July 17, 2011, 10:57 pm

        I have another suggestion, why not block posters such as “shingo” from contributing, because he advocates treating dissenting opinions in the same manner the zionist sites treat dissenting opinions.

        POA, just a friendly suggestion here. You might want to wait a bit and get to know the posters a little better here before you go making snap judgments about people. Shingo has consistently answered comments with factual arguments including cites and links and has shown incredible patience and forbearance with Witty and the like.

        Feel free to jump into the discussion, but don’t think you have the place all figured out after a few days, because so far your assumptions haven’t been right.

        If Witty was treated like Zionist sites treat dissenters he would not have been able to make 10,000 comments, most of them merely “word salad”, the rest illustrating an incredible hypocrisy and lack of understanding. (And BTW, that’s 10,000 comments in just 2 years.) Richard knew Phil when they were kids and supposes it means some kind of connection now, which it doesn’t. He’s been a hanger on at this site for way longer than that, so the 10,000 comments are just the tip of the iceberg.

        I don’t personally agree with banning anyone, except in response to the most egregious action, which Witty has not done, but I can surely understand Shingo’s frustration with Witty. Lighten up a bit on Shingo until you’ve had a bit more time here reading Witty’s hypocritical idiocy and his inability to back up any of his claims. Or go through some of the archives. I think you’ll understand a small fraction of the frustration. And Shingo’s analysis of Witty’s comment style here is spot on. You’ll see.

        And “debating” Witty is like debating jello. Fun is not the word for it.

      • Shingo
        July 18, 2011, 3:04 am

        I have another suggestion, why not block posters such as “shingo” from contributing, because he advocates treating dissenting opinions in the same manner the zionist sites treat dissenting opinions.

        FYI , I have no issue with dissenting opinions. In fact, dissenter are one of the biggest appeals of this blog. I would trade another contributer like Robert Werdine any day for a dufus like Witty.

        As others who have been on this blog for a while will tell you. it’s not Witty’s dissent that is the issue here, it’s his pathological dishonesty and refusal to engage. There is no way to actually debate the guy, because he refuses to aknowledge facts, he refuses to produce sources to support his own arguments, invents quotes out of thin air and even after being confronted with links that refute his claims, returns again shamelessly on another thread to repeat his BS.

        On top of that, his posts have become increasingly incoherent and garbled over the past 12 months. As the case for Israel becomes more and more strained and phoney facade is revealed, Witty has become propotionality less conherent. Witty hasn’t got the courage that eee or others have to say what they believe, so he tries to sugar coat his vile ideology, and the more sweetner he adds, the less sense he makes.

        On a final note, I am not the first to raise the discussion of having Witty banned. There were quite a few here that agreed they’d had enough of him to raise this issue about 6 months ago. Even Phil empathized with those sentiments, but argued that it was prudent to allow him to remain – albeit under the condition that he cut back on the extent of his trolling.

    • talknic
      July 17, 2011, 4:12 am

      Richard Witty

      “Ultimately, borders need to be consented, and maintained over an extended period as consented.”

      Israel was recognized and accepted into the UN May 11th 1949, before Israel made it’s first official claim to territories “outside of Israel”. Israel was rebuffed, so it ignored the UN Charter and Customary International Law, opting to contest everything, admit nothing, create illegal ‘facts on the ground’.

      “There is a path to resolution, if taken in a unified, disciplined, and skillful manner “

      Like Israel adhering to Customary International Law and the UN Charter perhaps, instead of hiding behind mom’s UNSC veto skirts.

      • justicewillprevail
        July 17, 2011, 6:35 am

        Uh oh, he’s gone quiet. Come on, Richard, lots of good points for debate there in response to you. What’s the matter, have you a response or any arguments to make in return? Maybe you would like to clarify your views with some facts and links. It couldn’t possibly be the case that you haven’t anything to say? And just ignore everybody and land on another thread with the same vague points yet again, and refuse to respond to anybody? That would be cowardice or arrogance, or both.

      • Richard Witty
        July 17, 2011, 7:58 am

        Well,
        I sincerely believe that you AND Siegman assess the politics incompletely, not wrongly, just fundamentally incompletely.

        The math, the goal, is for two states providing security and well-being to all their citizens and a national sovereignty for their community’s self-governance.

        Anything less than that, two healthy states, is a state of war. You are accurate that Israel has the latitude to oppress, and obviously considerable motivation (some from greed, some from risk aversion).

        As peace is the only reasonable goal (sovereignty but in a state of war, devolves to the OPPOSSITE of a liberated condition very quickly and very thoroughly), then all posturing has to provide a path to get there.

        The ambiguity of the Palestinian state, whether after independence it will assertively pursue peace and dignity, or punitive confrontation and “dignity”, makes it then impossible to just confidently endorse the Palestinian statehood initiative, although it is clearly the right result.

        IF, before the September statehood petition, Hamas declared that “we recognize Israel at 67 borders, and will do everything within our power to live in a peaceful relation with Israel”, and sincerely, and meant it, then the PA would unify around sovereignty #and# peace.

        That would corner Israel, and truly demand clarification of the balance of risk aversion vs greed. The greed would be exposed.

        Currently, it is not. Militancy JUSTIFIES likud. You guys create the need for likud. You elect likud.

        When, with a bit more care, and a bit more political savvy, you could realize a sovereign and viable Palestine, possibly evolving to an economic and even political confederation in a bi-national federal state in a couple decades, and without war and without getting in bed with fascists.

      • Citizen
        July 17, 2011, 9:01 am

        IF, before the September statehood petition, Hamas declared that “We will recognize Israel at 67 borders as soon as Israel withdraws all its settlements since 67, and will do everything within our power to live in a peaceful relation with Israel”, and sincerely, and meant it, then the PA & Israel would unify around sovereignty #and# peace.

      • justicewillprevail
        July 17, 2011, 10:47 am

        everybody in the world, including the Arab League, has told Israel the outlines of peace, based around the 2SS, long before Hamas was created by Israel. Israel has NEVER accepted the proposals, or even shown willingness to discuss them. Your shallow attempt to blame Hamas and the Palestinians for the failure of Israel is your fantasy version of events, and you even have the cheek to blame ‘you guys’ here, implying, with your typical innuendo and malignity that everyone here is for violence because they don’t agree with your juvenile analysis. And then you jibe about fascists, omitting the myriad of recent articles about the slow growth of Israeli fascism. As per usual, you refuse to answer the many well-argued points against you, and once more pontificate from your lofty perch, patronising and making false statements about the actions and beliefs of people who want justice and equality in Israelestine.

      • Charon
        July 17, 2011, 11:38 am

        That’s a lot of adverbs – five in your first sentence alone. This is a rhetorical strategy, a common trick used in persuasive speech. The question is who are you trying to persuade? The person(s) you are responding to (who know better) or to the potential non-posting lurkers reading the comments section?

        Likud is a terrorist organization. When they used to be called Irgun, they bombed the King David Hotel in Jerusalem and slaughtered 120 Palestinians in the Deir Yassin Massacre among many other atrocities.

        You also like to use that word sovereign a lot. How can Israel claim sovereignty when they don’t even know where their borders are?

        You took “imposing cost” and decided they meant “pain” which is something that wasn’t said. Paranoia is not extrasensory perception. It isn’t just you but practically every Zionist out there putting words into people’s mouth which were never said. Israel also does this to ‘justify’ their actions. This is also a psychopathic trait as is the rhetorical persuasion thing. Coupled with your lack of empathy, I am inclined to believe that Zionism fuels psychopathy (for which there is no cure).

        You use this sentence:

        “Anything less than that, two healthy states, is a state of war.”

        To justify the unending status quo. The host will never get healthy as long as the parasite continues sucking the life out of it. The settlement project rapidly accelerated after Oslo. Israel was never serious about real peace. Peace to Israel means pushing the Arabs into the river.

      • annie
        July 17, 2011, 12:38 pm

        charon:

        It isn’t just you but practically every Zionist out there putting words into people’s mouth which were never said. Israel also does this to ‘justify’ their actions. This is also a psychopathic trait as is the rhetorical persuasion thing. Coupled with your lack of empathy,

        before i explain why i agree w/the premiss of your argument i wanted to express that making generalizations about ‘ practically every Zionist out there ‘ doesn’t help your argument. there are actually zionists who don’t practice these methods and don’t even blog. they just think, or have been brainwashed to think, jews need their own state for ‘self determination’ and have not really deconstructed the logic and implications of that state being in palestine. it is those people we want to reach because when they learn the truth, they sympathize and realize supporting zionism (in palestine) is supporting ethnic cleansing. besides ‘zionists’ could mean christian zionists who are brainwashed in other ways and sometimes anti semites. i don’t think making sweeping generalizations about zionists having “psychopathic traits ” is helpful to your argument, at all.

        that said, the rhetorical tool of putting words in people’s mouths (or implying violent intent) it goes on all the time in these threads. i just finished addressing jon here. first he makes an inaccurate statement pretending the source of his diversion was implied in the thread which it wasn’t. then he builds on that premise by asking rhetorical questions laced w/violent rhetoric. (“Is it based …. on hatred? Do you… at least care… do you ultimately want to see it destroyed?”)

        accusing (or implying) ones adversaries are in a state of ‘hatred’ is a very common rhetorical tool for israel’s defenders.

      • Chaos4700
        July 17, 2011, 1:00 pm

        It may be an impolite thing to say, annie, but that doesn’t make it false. I haven’t met a Zionist yet whose commitment to social justice, liberalism, human rights, free speech, and justice doesn’t unfailingly stop short as soon as the topic changes to Israel. Charon’s right. There’s something almost pathological, psychologically, about Zionism. Mooser jokes about “ziocaine” and I try to make light of it, but what Charon is saying is serious, it’s real and it’s something we’re going to have to confront, sooner or later.

      • American
        July 17, 2011, 1:43 pm

        I have to agree with Chaos Annie…..even in so called Liberal zionist there is some mental disconnect in their thinking. I keep chalking it up to their belief in Jewish holocaust entitlement.
        Slater is good example of this, some one who decries the treatment of the Palestines, but at the same time when it gets right down to the nitty gritty, he justifies it..even while bemoaning it…..with his belief in and support of a Jewish State because of all us anti semites. Even to the liberal zionist 1+1=1 and that 1 is the Jews. They skip right over the fact of whether or not the Jews “had a right” to take Palestine land…they ..again…think they were ‘entitled’ to do that. There is something pathological there.

      • eljay
        July 17, 2011, 1:52 pm

        >> IF, before the September statehood petition, Hamas declared that “we recognize Israel at 67 borders, and will do everything within our power to live in a peaceful relation with Israel”, and sincerely, and meant it, then the PA would unify around sovereignty #and# peace.

        But what would Israel do? Would it accept that declaration and immediately and completely halt its ON-GOING campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder? If not, why should Hamas bother to “recognize” anything?

        This also reminds me that you still haven’t answered the following question I raised in response to one of your theoretical scenarios:
        ————————————-
        eljay July 12, 2011 at 7:25 am
        RW, please respond.

        You stated:
        >> In this case Hamas has publicly declared that it will NEVER recognize Israel, and that is qualitatively different than “we will recognize Israel if…”
        >> The failure to shift to “if”, is the confirmation of a state of war.

        I asked:
        >> So, if Hamas were to say…
        “We will recognize Israel as a democratic, secular and egalitarian democracy for all Israelis IF it halts its ON-GOING campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder; withdraws to within its 1967 borders; and enters into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually beneficial peace”
        >> …that would be acceptable?

        Please respond.
        ————————————-

      • talknic
        July 17, 2011, 2:30 pm

        R W

        “IF, before the September statehood petition, Hamas declared that “we recognize Israel at 67 borders, and will do everything within our power to live in a peaceful relation with Israel”, and sincerely, and meant it, then the PA would unify around sovereignty #and# peace.”

        Hamas is irrelevant to the declaration of statehood. They are a political party.

        I’m amazed at how little people know about the process Israel went through. It is such a good, step by step, by the rules, example. (after declaration is another matter)

        It takes a non-political body such as the Jewish People’s Council. Such a body is representative of all Palestinians, regardless of their political persuasions. The body exists only until an elected Government is instituted. The body first declares either statehood or independent state hood. (The latter cannot be effective under occupation. There has never been a moment in history where Palestine has not had some or all of it’s territories under occupation)

        The body then institutes a Provisional Government until an elected Government can be instituted.

        As of recognition it would be first the provisional Palestinian Government that the International Community would have to deal with until a Government is in place.

        Hamas might run for office in those elections. It isn’t un-common

        “That would corner Israel, and truly demand clarification of the balance of risk aversion vs greed. The greed would be exposed.”

        A) Israel is not cornered whilst there is the precious US UNSC veto vote preventing action against activities defined as illegal, inadmissible, null, under Chapter VI . Action has not been taken, however the Law and Israel’s breaches of the law under Chapt VI still stand.

        B) The law and the UN Charter provide adequate room for risk aversion when it comes to the protection of sovereignty. Israel ‘risks’ more by illegally acquiring other folk’s territory by becoming a pariah state and earning long term. quite justifiable hatred and anger at what Israel has visited upon the Palestinians

        C) With Israel’s illogical ‘defensive borders’ doctrine they attempt to take even more. No matter how much land Israel usurps from it’s neighbours, it will always have neighbours, who have equal right to defensive borders. They especially have a right to prevent their land being usurped.

      • Hostage
        July 17, 2011, 3:06 pm

        The ambiguity of the Palestinian state

        Richard there really isn’t one iota of ambiguity involved. CFR 19 § 134.1 states that “Country” means the political entity known as a nation.

        The US government treats the West Bank and Gaza as a completely different nation and country of origin from neighboring “Israel”. That means the Customs Service and the BDS movement shouldn’t have to wait to identify goods manufactured there by Israeli businesses.

        For example, “Department Of The Treasury, Customs Service, [T.D. 97–16], Country of Origin Marking of Products From the West Bank and Gaza”, March 14, 1997 announced that the President had declared the West Bank and Gaza a Free Trade Area.

        Customs notified the public in T.D. 95–25 that, unless excepted from marking, goods produced in the West Bank or Gaza Strip shall be marked as ‘‘West Bank,’’ ‘‘Gaza,’’ or ‘‘Gaza Strip.’’ The T.D. further stated that the country of origin markings of such goods shall not contain the words ‘‘Israel,’’ ‘‘Made in Israel,’’ ‘‘Occupied Territories-Israel,’’ or words of similar meaning.

        By letter dated January 13, 1997, the Department of State advised the Department of the Treasury that the Palestinian Authority had asked that the U.S. accept the country of origin marking ‘‘West Bank/Gaza’’ so as to reaffirm the territorial unity of the two areas. The Department of State further advised that it considered the West Bank and Gaza Strip to be one area for political, economic, legal and other purposes.

        The State Department letter means that under US immigration law, the government treats Israel and West Bank/Gaza as separate foreign states. U.S. Title 8 § 1101. Definitions says “(a) As used in this chapter— (14) The term “foreign state” includes outlying possessions of a foreign state, but self-governing dominions or territories under mandate or trusteeship shall be regarded as separate foreign states.

        The only commenter here who is having trouble grasping the situation is YOU.

      • annebeck58
        July 17, 2011, 3:57 pm

        But, how will you be able to tell if they, “Sincerely MEAN IT”? Or, will Israel simply presume they don’t?

        Therein lies the problem (or one of the main problems), eh?

      • justicewillprevail
        July 17, 2011, 6:22 pm

        How will we know Israel ‘ sincerely means it’? Have they ever meant what they say?

      • annebeck58
        July 17, 2011, 6:26 pm

        The problem, as I see it, Witty, is that just recently; Netnayahu came out and said he wants a ONE-State solution of “Israel/Palestine”.
        One state will not work. I am not trying to rid the Middle-East of Israel, but I also want Palestine to be its’ own state, with its’ own government, ability to make and export its’ own goods, to support its’ own people.
        Why does the Israeli government and majority of its’ people fear that? I truly believe that were Palestinians given what they deserve; the right to stand on their own without Israeli forces breathing down their collective neck (and worse), Israel would be a safer place. Without this freedom, however, there will be no peace in either state. I also believe there will never be an Israel without a Palestine.

        The biggest problem, since the early 1900’s, has been the land-debate. If Israel had stood firm to their ’48 borders, or even the ’67 borders, sans their military ruling Palestine, this could be a viable solution. As it is now, no positive change will take place in either state, and “wars” will continue there.

        I say, “wars”, in quotations, as I am aware that the only people being slaughtered are the Palestinians; mainly the Gazans. For this, the world should be up in arms! Israel NEEDS some sanity brought into their government and essentially forced upon their citizens via sane thought and reasonable laws!

      • Shingo
        July 17, 2011, 7:12 pm

        The math, the goal, is for two states providing security and well-being to all their citizens and a national sovereignty for their community’s self-governance.

        Who’s goal is it Witty? It’s not Israel’s. and it’s certainly not Netenyahu’s. Clearly it’s your analysis tha’s incomplete, not Siegman’s. Also missing from your anaylsis is the fact that the 2ss is dead.

        The ambiguity of the Palestinian state, whether after independence it will assertively pursue peace and dignity, or punitive confrontation and “dignity”, makes it then impossible to just confidently endorse the Palestinian statehood initiative, although it is clearly the right result.

        So in other words, you are the one opposed to the two state solution. Like so many self proclaimed liberla Zionists, you are happy to endorse a 2ss so long as it remains unlikely.

        IF, before the September statehood petition, Hamas declared that “we recognize Israel at 67 borders, and will do everything within our power to live in a peaceful relation with Israel”, and sincerely, and meant it, then the PA would unify around sovereignty #and# peace.

        That would corner Israel, and truly demand clarification of the balance of risk aversion vs greed. The greed would be exposed.

        Currently, it is not. Militancy JUSTIFIES likud. You guys create the need for likud. You elect likud.

        You have it backwards as usual Witty. Likud is the child of the Stern gang, a militant group motivated by a goal fo removing Palestiniasn from palestine – a project you said was no loger necessary.

        Ironicalla, Israel created Hamas and when Israel withdrew from Gaza, they expressed their desire that Hamas take over Gaza so that they could continue to treat it as an enemy state.

        So in effect, your absird statement is an example fo projection on your part.

    • Mooser
      July 17, 2011, 1:34 pm

      “Ultimately, borders need to be consented….”

      Hmmm, “consented” borders. Funny how I never heard of that border consenting process before.

      Fundemental dishonesty: He invents an entirely knew and completely (I loved this discription) “etheral” process.

  6. seafoid
    July 16, 2011, 12:30 pm

    “The reality is that Israeli governments — even before Bibi Netanyahu — have opted for territory over peace. From the very beginning in 1967, Israel’s goal has been to prevent a border being drawn between them and the West Bank”

    In 1967 there were only 400,000 or so people in the West Bank . Say this is x. Israel assumed they would be swamped by Jews coming to Erez Israel. Call these Jews y.

    Israel built YESHA on the assumption that

    y > x
    and that over time somehow x = 0

    43 years on the formula looks like

    x = 2.5 million
    y = 0.5 million
    x > y

    They got all the projections wrong. The main flaw was that they didn’t realise that x grows faster if you subject all of x to increasing poverty.
    And they underestimated the number of Jews who would come to their shangri la.

    They also misread the international community. They thought they had carte blanche to repeat 1948. But the world had moved on by 1967.

    I think they must have wanted to get Egypt to accept all the Gazans in 1967. But the Egyptians y wouldn’t.

    So the YESHA project should have been stopped by 1968. The problem was Israel was in the grip of that messianic cult post 67 so they ploughed on regardless. They should never have let that rabbi into Hebron

    link to hebron.com

    Now it is time to pay the piper. The settlers will even go so far as to destroy Israel’s democracy.

    YESHA is a fantasy that will destroy much of Israel’s reality.

    These people should have been expelled from Israel. Instead they were indulged. It seemed the easiest thing to do at the time…….

    Defense Minister Moshe Dayan was anxious to remove the pioneers from the hotel. He suggested that they move to the military compound overlooking Hebron. A heated debate ensued. There were those who felt that moving to the compound would in effect, strangle the project. Others saw in Dayan’s suggestion official recognition, albeit de facto, of their goal. Six weeks later, the pioneers moved to the military compound. Rabbi Levinger insisted on accommodations for 120 people even though they numbered less than half at that time. Rabbi Levinger was accused of being an unrealistic dreamer. Within a few short weeks however, he was proven correct. The 120 places in the military compound could not accommodate the hundreds of people who wanted to be part of the renewed of Jewish life in Hebron, city of the Patriarchs.
    “We received Eretz Yisrael on a silver platter in 1967″, explained Miriam Levinger. “It was an honor and a privilege to be among the first people to make the dream of return a reality.”

  7. arty
    July 16, 2011, 12:37 pm

    Any Palestinian will tell you “They (the Israelis) want the land without the people”. It has been obvious for decades.

  8. Citizen
    July 16, 2011, 12:44 pm

    Israel’s Bibi Netanyahu will attack Iran (& draw US into the fight) as Palestinians take their case for their own state to UN this Fall: link to t.co

    29 Standing ovations by the US congress for Bibi N? How about 29 reasons for why America should cut off all aid to Israel:
    link to disquietreservations.blogspot.com

    • Citizen
      July 16, 2011, 1:01 pm

      In case you’re short on time, here’s the 29 reasons to give the finger (back) to Bibi:
      JULY 15, 2011

      29 Reasons Why America Should Cut Off Ties With Israel, AIPAC And The Neocons
      “The collapses of the Twin Towers of the World Trade Centre, on September 11, 2001, were the most frightening images that I have ever seen, up until May 24th, 2011, when Binyamin Netanyahu addressed a joint session of the United States Congress and received 29 standing ovations, along with many other outbursts of sycophantic applause.

      It was the final nail in a coffin, the construction of which began long ago, and in it all remaining vestiges of democracy were joyfully laid to rest—by those sworn to protect it—as it became clear that the United States was now controlled by Enemies Inside its Gates.” – Anthony Lawson, July 7, 2011.
      Israel is not Sparta, America is not the Athenian empire, and Islamic Iran is not the Persian empire of old. But that is what the corrupt and delusional neocons like to think. They’ve read the ancient Greeks so much that they actually think they are them.

      But the neocons are not modern-day philosopher-kings. Washington is the kingdom of rats, and the neocons have climbed up to become the top rats. As the children of modern totalitarianism, ancient oppression, and Medieval tyranny they are the poisonous destroyers of freedom, not its proud defenders. These dangerous nuts and armchair warriors don’t live in reality, but through their influence on America’s Middle East policy their insane ideas have caused real havoc in the Middle East. They live, breathe, think and dream in their own little crazy world. They are after blood and glory, not peace and freedom, but the blood that is being spilled is not their own, and the glory they seek is an illusion.

      America was deceived and tricked on 9/11 to be an instrument of destruction and tyranny by the neocons, the U.S. Shadow Security State, and Israel, all of whom share responsibility for the false flag attacks on that day. At the heart of this evil deception is the belief that America should fight one last world war before its powers are destroyed and its constitutional government is replaced once and for all by a global authoritarian government that will become the Babel for the global financial empire that has secretly ruled America since the establishment of the private Federal Reserve Bank in 1913.

      The treacherous money printers love it when an empire as big as America goes to war because they make an insane amount of money by lending the empire money that is to be paid back at usurious interest rates. The day America accepted paper money issued by private banking thieves as its currency was the day it went to hell. Today, America is being used in the service of evil and tyranny.

      Douglas Miller, editor and translator of Goethe’s book ‘Scientific Studies,’ said Goethe hated paper money because it is not real money, but supported by convention and maintained by fraud. “Goethe’s negative views on paper money,” writes Miller, “are reflected in Part II of Faust when Mephistopheles persuades the Emperor to introduce paper money based on the value of an undiscovered buried treasure. This plan later proves ruinous for the empire.” (Goethe; Scientific Studies, pg. 322).

      The use of paper money printed by greedy private bankers is the biggest reason for America’s current economic collapse and destruction. If the American government was forced to tax its people every time it went to war instead of borrowing money from a private banking cartel who magically make money out of thin air then it would not go to war so much because the people would not accept the heavy price. The reason why members of the giant military-industrial complex in America and private financiers love each other so much is because they pay each other’s bills and make themselves extremely wealthy in the process.

      A war is only good for a few powerful men who make money off of an empire’s blood, sweat and tears. Everybody else gets screwed, especially the empire’s foot soldiers. Since Israel, along with the neocons and AIPAC, is the biggest lobby that is pushing America to a new war with Iran it should be the first to get crushed once the wrath of the American people gets to a tipping point. An attack on Iran will lead to a catastrophic world war and will bring total devastation to all involved in the comi-tragedy.

      Below I list 29 reasons why the American people should cut off ties with Israel until it gets its act together and learns to join the community of civilized nations. Why 29? Because the Congress, led by traitors and rats like Eric Cantor, gave 29 standing ovations to that arrogant and disgusting bully Benjamin Netanyahu when he spoke in Congress on May 24, 2011.

      1. Israel’s attack on the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967, was “an attack on America,” as Paul Craig Roberts said in his article ‘USS Liberty: Govt. Betrayal & Cover-up Finally Exposed.’ Israel should have been taught a lesson and humbled right then and there. Instead, lips were closed shut, and America was betrayed. Such a small nation like Israel should not be so arrogant that it can attack an empire and get away with it. A big reason why America has no honour today is because the attack on the USS Liberty was not treated as an act of war by Israel. Sitting silent in the face of treason from within and betrayal by allies abroad means the death of a nation’s honour and independence.

      2. Israeli spying in the U.S. government is a known fact. And it is unforgivable. If you have not already, watch this Fox News report from 2001 about Israeli spying in the U.S. before the September 11 attacks. Fox News is 99% wrong and evil, but it is not totally evil. In this case, it got it right.

      3. Israel’s Mossad had a big hand in the 9/11 attacks. This is reason enough to tell Israel’s state terrorists, Ehud Barak and Netanyahu, to go to hell. Israel is also involved in other false flag attacks that create international confusion, regional chaos, popular hatred, and war.

      4. AIPAC’s control of Congress and its subversion of America’s political process is unhealthy for a nation as powerful as America and also unjust.

      5. Numerous Israeli leaders have disrespected American leadership and undermined America’s efforts on the Israeli-Palestinian crisis. Recently, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu publicly spat in the face of both President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden.

      6. Israel’s expansionist, war-like and racist policies makes it an outlaw state. It routinely breaks international law and starts wars for land and water while saying to the world “we must defend ourselves because our existence is threatened by Muslim extremists.” Riiight. As the British say, that’s bollocks, mate.

      7. America’s “till death do us part” relationship with Israel diminishes America’s image as neutral, honest and fair. For America to be a great power it must be balanced, just, and bring both the Palestinians and the Israelis to the table. America must tell Israel that it is not special and that it will enforce international law because a nation that believes it is special and above all other nations will commit all kinds of crimes.

      8. General David Petraeus, the current CIA director and former commander of U.S. Central Command, issued a report in January that said Israel’s actions towards the Palestinians reflects badly on America in the Islamic world and provides propaganda ammo for Muslims to attack American troops in Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Mark Perry wrote in an article called ‘The Petraeus briefing: Biden’s embarrassment is not the whole story’ at ForeignPolicy.com that Petraeus’s message was, “America’s relationship with Israel is important, but not as important as the lives of America’s soldiers.”

      9. Israel pressures America to fight unnecessary wars and support unpopular policies. The U.S. military lobby is bad enough, why have another war lobby around Washington that does nothing but inject poisonous lies into the minds of Congressmen and Senators?

      10. Israeli leaders Netanyahu and Barak are mentally unstable, and devious criminals who are pursuing an irrational policy towards Iran, Palestine, and the greater Middle East. Former Mossad Chief Meir Dagan has recently saidthat the Netanyahu government is “irresponsible and reckless,” and will lead Israel to ruin and destruction by attacking Iran.

      11. Israel is an intellectually bankrupt state that is afraid of any international criticism and blocks world intellectuals like Noam Chomsky from visiting the occupied Palestinian territories.

      12. Israel’s deep influence on the U.S. mainstream media through AIPAC and the neocon gang damages democracy and deforms the national dialogue about issues relating to the Middle East. All healthy and free nations allow different viewpoints to be heard in the public square, but that is not the case today in America and other Western nations as a result of the slanted coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian crisis by the unethical mainstream media.

      13. Israel’s hegemonic goals is destroying the balance of powers among the nations of the Middle East. By pitting itself along with America against hundreds of millions of people Israel is preventing any chance of peace. This is not a policy, it is madness. Moving forward, Israeli leaders need to learn how to cooperate and make peace with Israel’s neighbours, instead of bullying everyone into a state of fearful submission. Israel will achieve security and peace through love, not fear.

      14. Israeli leaders have sabotaged the peace process time after time, making it harder each time for America to present a straight face to the Arab public and Middle East governments.

      15. Israel is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship in which “18 families control 60% of the equity value of all companies in Israel,” according to Shir Hever, an economic researcher who works for the Alternative Information Center in Jerusalem. Israel has an army of spies and propagandists who spread lies in the world media and intimidate people from criticizing Israel’s unjust policies. The Israeli state also brainwashes its own population and uses state terror and fear to make Israelis believe that they will always be under threat from their neighbours which is not true.

      16. Israel’s extremist leadership and crazy religious communities do not want to compromise. They think they can get away with disrespecting international law and the natural rights of the Palestinians because they have greater military power. But that won’t always be the case. Instead of relying on fear and power, Israel must be told in clear terms by American military and political leaders to use diplomacy to solve its political problems.

      17. Israel irresponsibly offered to sell its nuclear weapons to the apartheid regime of South Africa, proving that it is a dishonourable and untrustworthy state that has no problems with making money from dictatorships at their people’s expense.

      18. Israel’s collective punishment of a million and more Palestinians is barbaric, unjust, and totally criminal. It is a big sign that the Israeli state is weak and pathetic when it prevents international activists from sending humanitarian goods to the people of Gaza who deserve to have access to goods and education.

      19. Israeli leaders make a mockery of the history of the Jewish people by exploiting their past trauma and grief to justify their barbaric treatment of Palestinians. They also unjustly blacken Jews and non-Jews alike as anti-Semitic and Jew-hating. This obnoxious propaganda tactic is getting on everyone’s nerves. Israel is not a victim. It is an aggressive state that uses deception and terror to get what it wants.

      20. Israeli hardline leaders are ungrateful for what America has done for Israel’s security. A lack of gratitude and love in a nation for its friends is a poisonous trait. A nation that only cares about its own survival and interests does not deserve to be called a nation. The people of Israel have been brainwashed into thinking that it is their tiny island against the world, and that everybody hates them. This is a big and dangerous delusion that has brought suffering to the people of Israel and its neighbours. American leaders must tell the people of Israel that the world hates Israel not because of its ethnicity but because the Israeli government refuses to abandon destructive, unjust and murderous policies towards the Palestinians and other countries in the region.

      21. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is an arrogant bully and a pathological liar who wants war, not a honest statesmen who wants peace. On May 24, 2011, Netanyahu stormed into Congress, and basically treated Congressmen and Congresswomen like weak and impressionable children, taking their lunch and dignity away from them. In his speech, Netanyahu used bombastic rhetoric like all dangerous warmongers. If you allow a bully like Netanyahu to take your lunch today, he’ll come back for more tomorrow. The only way you deal with a bully is by standing up to him and knocking him down.

      22. Israel is busying stirring up chaos in Lebanon by falsely accusing Hezbollah of assassinating former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafic Hariri. This deception is an act of war. It wouldn’t matter of Israel didn’t have nuclear weapons, but because it has nuclear weapons it is not only a danger to herself and her neighbours but the rest of the world as well.

      23. Israel is not on the frontline in the war against Islamic extremism. The war on terror, or the war between Western Civilization and Islamic Civilization, is a myth of conflict that was deliberately concocted to serve Israel’s hegemonic geopolitical agenda and strategic interests, and justify America’s imperialist wars. Thus, the claim that America must support Israel’s fight against terrorism because Israel is defending Western civilization and America’s interests is a giant and immoral lie.

      24. The Israeli state does not represent Jewish values and the great Jewish tradition. Netanyahu’s government is acting immorally towards Palestinians and bringing shame upon the people of Israel.

      25. Israel is a failed state that uses state terror and deception to dominate the Palestinian people. State terrorism does not work in the end, and partnering with a terrorist state is a crime. Israel’s state terrorists must either transform into honest statesmen or they must be forced to come to the table and make fair compromises for the sake of peace and survival. But that won’t happen under the current leadership in Israel. A leopard doesn’t change its spots. Barak and Netanyahu were state terrorists yesterday, they are state terrorists today, and they will be state terrorists tomorrow.

      26. Israel cannot dictate American policy in the Middle East in any way. Some American leaders may believe that they have to keep Israel close to Washington to prevent it from doing anything foolish on its own. This is pure speculation on my part. I call it the short leash approach to diplomacy, whereby you keep Israel on a tight and short leash to control its excessive belligerence. I understand the logic of this approach, but it won’t work forever. A mad dog can’t be constrained by a leash, even if it is an empire’s leash. The leash can also be used in a reverse fashion by Israel’s arrogant leaders: to choke America to death.

      27. All Israeli leaders want to do is make war because it is the easy way out. Israel has been itching for a war with Iran for a long time. But Israel’s security is not threatened by the Iranian regime. Israel has been wrong about Iran’s nuclear program in the past and it is wrong today. Read Justin Elliott’s Salon article from December, 2010 called ‘Israel on Iran: So wrong for so long.’ Also, read Arash Norouzi’s article from January, 2007 called ‘Wiped Off The Map: The Rumour of The Century,’ and Meir Javedanfar’s Guardian article from June, 2011 called ‘Why Israel is wrong about Iran.’ Javedanfar writes, wisely:
      The biggest reason why Iran’s supreme leader, Ali Khamenei, has agreed to talks during the last few years is not the fear of a military attack by Israel. The biggest reason is that he is worried about his country’s economy, which is far more crucial to the regime’s survival than the nuclear programme. The Islamic regime in Iran has not and will not live on its nuclear programme. It lives on its economy.
      28. Israel rapes the standards of international law and does not deserve to be called a civilized society. Israel’s crimes in Gaza are in the realm of unspeakable evil. The Israeli state treats Palestinians like bugs. After Israel’s war on Gaza in 2009, an Israeli soldier said: “That’s what is so nice, supposedly, about Gaza. You see a person on a road … He doesn’t have to be with a weapon. You don’t have to identify him with anything. You can just shoot him.” An editorial from the Guardian on March 24, 2009, called ‘A case to answer’ pointed out that, “what Israel does or is allowed to get away with doing affects attempts to establish the rule of international law in other conflicts.”

      29. Peace will not be achieved by being nice to Israel while being mean to the Palestinians. America must either be mean to all sides, nice to all sides, or take no side at all, which is what I think it should do. Following George Washington’s and Ron Paul’s non-interventionist approach is the wisest course of action. There is no either/or decision to make here. The war is not between either Israel or the forces of Islam. The war is between war and peace; survival or annihilation. In the end, the people of the Middle East, including the people of Israel, will suffer and bleed because Israel’s extremist leaders are choosing to commit Israel to a campaign of stupid and evil aggression instead of reaching out to Israel’s neighbours with peace in mind.

      “Unless Americans ignore the likes of Hanson, Podhoretz, Lieberman, Woolsey, and Wolfowitz,” wrote former CIA officer Michael Scheuer on July 16, 2008, in an article called ‘Turning the Tables on the Israel-Firsters,’ “the cost in blood and treasure will ultimately bankrupt America.”

      For America to survive as a nation it must be firm with both Israel and Palestine, and avoid a war with Iran. The problems that America must fix are an excessive national debt, a bad economy, and a severe political crisis that springs from long-standing treasonous policies by the Democratic-Republican leadership which benefit a small, politically powerful class, but harm the livelihoods and security of the majority of the American people.

      The good people in Washington (if there are any) should wake up and say goodbye to the nightmare that is Israel. Instead of fighting unnecessary and evil wars, Washington should concentrate on rebuilding America’s infrastructure, protecting America’s borders, hanging the criminal banksterson Wall Street, and establishing a public banking system to help assist a new energy revolution and a new economic recovery.

      • seafoid
        July 16, 2011, 2:41 pm

        Great analysis, Citizen.

        We need a new system. The one we have is a global suicide machine. Nobody ultimately benefits from it.
        Even plutocrats have children…

        Israel is a sick part of this system.

      • anonymouscomments
        July 16, 2011, 5:59 pm

        i second that, great analysis. as MSM molds US prevailing opinion, i do not think the false flag attacks will be unearthed, though the tidal wave of change would be beautiful. assumedly, ten years from now it will be like past false flag ops, where a chunk are suspicious, but no justice is done. for those who want a damning analysis, see this link to vimeo.com

        further, if anyone out there wants to help, i am starting an evidence based site looking specifically at the forensic evidence found in the dust- 911dust.com (really, just started, it is blank; i myself am an engineer with a masters, and the dust seems to be a key line of analysis).

      • Kris
        July 16, 2011, 7:27 pm

        Thanks, excellent post.

      • eee
        July 17, 2011, 1:56 am

        This site is getting nuttier and nuttier.
        So much crap in one post. For example, it is a UN sanctioned court that is accusing Hezbollah, not Israel.

      • anonymouscomments
        July 17, 2011, 4:04 am

        That was all you could pick from 29 and more? Now, many would call parts “nutty”, though most all seem well founded if you are well read with an open mind. Really… ad hominem attacks of “nuttier and nuttier” will not suffice when you pick some minor BS “point” given so much more weighty material. What do you say of Zionism and Israel if the selected “fact” is evidence of “nuttier and nuttier”? …and the world is nutty for sure… so call it all out as you seem to see it, no tribal bias please.

      • Shingo
        July 17, 2011, 4:55 am

        For example, it is a UN sanctioned court that is accusing Hezbollah, not Israel.

        The sane court that accused and imprisoned 4 suspects, only to later find the accusations against them were false.

        The same court that refused to charge or even investigate those who made the false allegations.

        I guess this is one of those situations eee, when the UN has credibility in your eyes.

      • stevieb
        July 17, 2011, 8:41 am

        And that is supposed to mean what? We’ve already seen in the early part of that investigation how the UN has been used by Israel and the U.S to push for a politically expediate condemnation….

      • Mooser
        July 17, 2011, 3:24 pm

        “This site is getting nuttier and nuttier.”

        Are you trying to tell us that it’s getting too nutty for you to post here?
        Listen “eee”, if you feel this site is too nutty for you, don’t be afraid to go somewhere else more to your liking.

      • longliveisrael
        July 17, 2011, 6:47 pm

        The treacherous money printers love it when an empire as big as America goes to war because they make an insane amount of money by lending the empire money that is to be paid back at usurious interest rates.

        Citizen, why use code words like money printers and private bankers, when we all know what you mean. When you allude to Jews as bankers funding wars and causing 9/11, we know you don’t mean it in a racist way.

      • Chaos4700
        July 17, 2011, 11:35 pm

        It being so false because the head of the Fed is never ever never Jewish. Right?

      • anonymouscomments
        July 17, 2011, 11:38 pm

        You are the racist who does not realize he was very clearly talking of the broad interests that profit off war, and had no indication they were Jews (he is stating the truth about war profiteers; great some are Jews)… you seem to jump to race, when that comment did not have to do with race… extreme philosemitism is a form of racism, and you people who cry racism and antisemitism are often the mental midgets who actually attach too much significance to “race”. Further your rank tribalism itself feeds the flames of racism, a construct of the mind. BTW are you getting together an application to work for the ADL or might you already volunteer?

      • Citizen
        July 18, 2011, 2:48 am

        No code words used, longliveisrael. Any American, or anyone actually, can study the history and operation of the American Federal Reserve System, and the Bank of England, etc; of fiat money, of usury, of high finance, including how wars are financed and countries “saved from themselves,” including today’s IMF & WB, and their relation to US Treasury and the US IRS, private versus public banking systems, the pros and cons of competing economic theory, especially the results when applied over the course of years. “Pay day” loans even?

        In fact, I’d say it’s a patriotic duty for any citizen to become aware of such. Does the word “bailout” mean anything to you? It does to every American I know. And aren’t the Greeks pretty concerned too? In fact, a whole lot of countries are concerned. Who gets bailed out? Who does not? Why? Is the cure worse than the affliction–for whom? Is it a blessing? For whom?

        Is it “anti-semitic” to read dusty tomes such as The Wealth Of Nations? The Road To Serfdom? How the English pound was replaced by the Yankee dollar? What is, will replace the dollar? And so on.

        There’s more to it than your jewish paranoia. Banksters are banksters. Give us a break.

  9. annie
    July 16, 2011, 1:02 pm

    “US is its ‘captive’”

    ouch! great article. i can here the squealers yelling zog zog zog!

  10. American
    July 16, 2011, 1:28 pm

    “Only when the cost gets serious enough will Israel make a deal and set that border.”

    What would enough cost be?
    Declare a state of emergency and issue executive orders for:
    Total cessation of all US aid, grants and loans?
    Seize the 2011 aid not drawn yet that is on deposit earning interest from the US?
    No more US UNSC vetoes for Israel?
    Voiding US-Isr free trade deal?
    Embargoing any Israeli imports to the US.
    Moving all US military stockpiles out of Israel?
    Prohibit sharing all US technology with Israel?
    Penalizing any US industries that set up companies in Israel?
    Taxing current tax free contribution to Israel by US citizens?
    Sending the US Marines to clean out the settlements and maintain a border?

    I think you might have to get down to that very last option.
    Why? Because the zionist and Netanyahu are certifiably insane with mythical hubris.
    With all the other punishments they would writhe and scream and command US Jews to revolt against this ‘holocaust’ on Israel and dig in their heels even deeper.
    The best approach is to take the first eight steps all at the same time….just slam the door shut, lock it, and walk away. No talking, no discussion, no phone calls accepted. And when the zios in congress run to the WH to threaten Obama he should have them arrested for bribery or trying to blackmail a US official.
    And if that doesn’t shock Israel and the zios to reality and acceptable behavior — send the Marines.

    After 60 years of this crap that is exactly what I would do and I would use that occasion to also expose every Israeli minion in the US congress to the public as working ‘against’ American interest..
    There is no doubt in my mind that this kind of display of balls.. ‘finally’ …by a US President would receive a standing ovation heard round the world from 300 million Americans and 99.9% of the rest of the universe’s population.

    • Dan Crowther
      July 16, 2011, 6:25 pm

      And if that doesn’t shock Israel and the zios to reality and acceptable behavior — send the Marines

      Id re-enlist for that. Oorah.

      • stevieb
        July 17, 2011, 8:42 am

        I think that all the time….

    • Lightbringer
      July 16, 2011, 6:28 pm

      “Only when the cost gets serious enough will Israel make a deal and set that border.”

      What would enough cost be?

      What makes you think that such procedure will be costly only to Israel ?

      Total cessation of all US aid, grants and loans?
      Seize the 2011 aid not drawn yet that is on deposit earning interest from the US?

      Antisemites are on the rise – here it comes.
      Jews complain as usual.

      No more US UNSC vetoes for Israel?

      Radical Islamists celebrating – no more worrying while launching attacks against Israel from populated areas
      Jews begin to talk among themselves that it is a bit not fair…
      Antisemites jubilant
      South of Israel is paralyzed due to daily attacks
      Hizballah recruiting.

      Voiding US-Isr free trade deal?

      First major agreement breach. USA credibility staggered a bit.
      Antisemites conduct attacks against Jews here and there, aliya increased disregarding permanent missile attacks.
      Hizbollah launches attack against Haifa; 12000 Lebanese dead.

      Embargoing any Israeli imports to the US.

      Computers market on panic – no more Intel processors. AMD could only supply 20% of demand, no more Macs – they are built with Iintel, no more Microsoft Windows.
      NASDAQ loses 10000 points.
      Smarter Jews begin to pack, dumber Jews still hope that everything will be fine.

      Moving all US military stockpiles out of Israel?
      Prohibit sharing all US technology with Israel?
      Penalizing any US industries that set up companies in Israel?

      Israel signs FTA agreement with China, projected turnover – 35 billions Euro.
      1 million Chinese come to Israel to resettle Negev.

      Taxing current tax free contribution to Israel by US citizens?

      Jewish population in Israel increased by 70%; new cities are built in Negev

      Sending the US Marines to clean out the settlements and maintain a border?

      That would be lovely.
      Really.
      Hardly there is anything worse for USA to do.
      Not only USA would invade independent state (nuclear-armed btw, but let’s not mention it for a while. NYC is an unimaginable target for an average Israeli pilot) but also it will lose it’s only ally in the region – and one of not-so-many allies in the world.

      In any case, consequences of such invasion will be devastating.
      Most likely the IDF will be ordered to exercise maximum restraint, but even if it will happen the marines will meet rather tough resistance.
      Lovely pictures that would be for any Palestinian:
      Squad of US marines at shootout with settlers family.
      After first such events US government will have to apprehend all American Jews for miscellaneous conspiracies.
      Thank god there is still operational concentration camps in USA.

      There is no doubt in my mind that this kind of display of balls.. ‘finally’ …by a US President would receive a standing ovation heard round the world from 300 million Americans and 99.9% of the rest of the universe’s population.

      The only reason you are making such bold statements is that you know too little of such complex topic.

      P.S. Since when the majority is right? ROFL.

      • Koshiro
        July 16, 2011, 7:22 pm

        Computers market on panic – no more Intel processors.

        This is actually a good lithmus test: If someone still actually believes the nonsense about all Intel processors coming from Israel, he can safely be written off as a total clown.

        The rest of the post is drivel of a similar caliber (NYC is indeed an unimaginable target for an Israeli pilot, because Israel has no aircraft with that kind of range etc.) but let’s leave it at that.

      • pineywoodslim
        July 16, 2011, 8:11 pm

        So, lightbringer, your point seems ultimately premised on your allusion to Israel nuking New York City if the US military was called into the occupied territories to protect Palestinians.

        Is that correct?

      • libra
        July 16, 2011, 9:13 pm

        Lb:”1 million Chinese come to Israel to resettle Negev. Jewish population in Israel increased by 70%; new cities are built in Negev”

        I didn’t realise the Chinese were Jewish, surely not Orthodox?

      • Cliff
        July 16, 2011, 10:06 pm

        Yep. The logic of Zionism at work. Chinese and even ‘Indian Jews’ are stealing Palestinian land now, or ‘settling’ it, because they are Jews.

      • American
        July 17, 2011, 1:12 am

        “Computers market on panic – no more Intel processors. AMD could only supply 20% of demand, no more Macs – they are built with Iintel, no more Microsoft Windows.
        NASDAQ loses 10000 points.
        Smarter Jews begin to pack, dumber Jews still hope that everything will be fine.”…(lightbringer)

        You must subscribe to Hasbara central and AIPAC intern memo’s instead of Business Week or Bloomberg.

        First —Israel doesn’t own the Intel chip plants in Israel–they are wholly owned by Intel Corp., USA.
        Furthermore most of Intel’s chip are made Az. New Mexico, Oregon, Mass., Ireland and their new, largest ever, 7 billion $ plant in CHINA.
        As well as chip, assembly and testing plants in VietNam, Costa Rica, Malaysia and Singapore.

        Ditto for Microsoft and windows. Microsoft has 60+ R&D centers around the world—a few being in Denmark, Ireland, Portugal, Serbia, Switzerland, UK, India, Australia, Brazil, Germany, Japan, S. Africa, and S. Korea.
        The Microsoft Center in Israel is wholly owned, just like their Intel plant is owned by intell USA, by Microsoft USA, not by Israel or an Israeli nor was it or Intel created by a Jew or Israeli.

        Israel is speck in the Intel chip empire and computer world–no one would miss it… and all Israel would have for a computer industry is 6,000 unemployed former Intel manufacturing workers and 500 un employed Microsoft workers.

        When Israel or an Israeli actually conceives of, invents, and creates or builds an industry like Intel or Microsoft on their own instead of piggybacking industry and jobs from USA, German and French created companies let me know and I will be glad to give them full credit.
        If Israel and their hasbara teams would quit making up stuff and taking credit for things they have nothing to do with, they and you would get more respect.

      • eee
        July 17, 2011, 2:01 am

        You don’t realize that Israel saved Intel and that without Israel, Intel is much less competitive.

        link to seattletimes.nwsource.com

      • Hostage
        July 17, 2011, 4:33 am

        You don’t realize that Israel saved Intel and that without Israel, Intel is much less competitive.

        That’s a four year-old article which said that Intel’s share of the market was lower than ever, but it could have been worse without the Israeli design team. Well, the x86 CPU market remains in decline. Apple and other key OEMs have been moving to netbooks, tablets, and smartphones that use ARM or other processors.

      • Shingo
        July 17, 2011, 4:59 am

        You don’t realize that Israel saved Intel and that without Israel, Intel is much less competitive.

        It was Intel that saved Intel, not Israel. Intel employs smart people everywhere to perform their specific tasks. Israel did not do anything for Intel.

      • Chaos4700
        July 17, 2011, 8:36 am

        Ha! AMD, eee. AMD, baby.

      • stevieb
        July 17, 2011, 8:44 am

        Ha!! That’s funny.

        You wish.

      • Haytham
        July 17, 2011, 5:46 pm

        Lightbringer:

        Would you care to enlighten us as to what hypothetical technology would be used by your “Israeli pilot” who finds it “unimaginable” to nuke NYC?

        I don’t think Israel has ICBMs and they have no war plane that can fly to the US to attack in this way. Do they have aircraft carriers stationed anywhere near the US? I don’t think they have any aircraft carriers and if they did there is no way the US would allow an aircraft carrier with any sort of nuclear payload to be within striking distance.

        Hypothetically, even if Israel had the capacity to deliver a nuclear strike here, it would be unsuccessful. A nuclear attack is no false flag BS operation. That pilot would be engaged and shot down before he got anywhere near North America.

        Finally, Israel would be committing complete national suicide if such an attack was successful (or even just attempted). The US has tens of thousands of nukes and it wouldn’t take more than 1 or 2 to end Israel.

        You post was idiotic.

        Response?

      • annebeck58
        July 17, 2011, 6:59 pm

        (Sending the US Marines to clean out the settlements and maintain a border?)

        “That would be lovely.
        Really.
        Hardly there is anything worse for USA to do.
        Not only USA would invade independent state (nuclear-armed btw, but let’s not mention it for a while. NYC is an unimaginable target for an average Israeli pilot) but also it will lose it’s only ally in the region – and one of not-so-many allies in the world.”

        **
        First of all, Lightbringer: How does Israel consider itself an INDEPENDENT state? If it truly is, I think the USA should stop with the constant support, both financial and militarily (arms), of Israel.
        Were we to stop supporting IZ, we probably would find that we suddenly have MANY allies in that part of the world, rather than the one which causes so many problems for their neighbors, as well as US.
        When do we stop being “friends” with one who stabs us in the back, repeatedly? How much abuse is too much? The US is acting like the battered wife where Israel (the angry, drunken, abusive husband) is concerned. It’s like we know we need to leave him, but we are afraid of what that would entail.
        It IS time for US to make a clean break. We need to see what else is out there, while (partially) solving our debt woes, too. Every bit would help at this point and that’s one debt we can do without. I know, that’s another part of the story and I probably don’t really want to get off on that tangent.., but, how is it the USA borrows monies from anyone else in order to keep supporting someone who abuses that support? It is a sick relationship and we just need OUT.
        Your comment, Lightbringer, sounded almost like a threat!

      • talknic
        July 18, 2011, 5:19 am

        annebeck58

        “How does Israel consider itself an INDEPENDENT state?”

        Indeed. Israel was declared independent of the Provisional State of Israel on May 15th 1948. However, after 63 years it depends on Palestinian territory to illegally house Israeli citizens.

      • talknic
        July 18, 2011, 7:59 am

        Oooops Me @ July 18, 2011 at 5:19 am

        Should have been; Israel was declared independent of the Provisional State of Palestine on May 15th 1948.

      • annebeck58
        July 19, 2011, 4:04 pm

        talknic,

        “However, after 63 years it depends on Palestinian territory to illegally house Israeli citizens.”

        That’s certainly another, even more disgusting rationale, for them to not be considered independent.

        It seems to me that, as they have lost a lot of the cheaper Palestinian/Arab labor, by walling so many of them off, re-settling Negev with Chinese workers would be their next move. And, just think; while the men are building settlements, the women can be held (slavery) as sex-workers, a “job” the Israeli police don’t seem to consider criminal. I mean the pimps, who should be arrested, but are not. The women, held by these men AND women kidnappers, are rarely ever arrested, charged, or even stopped. Of course, the IOF gets discounts, and Israeli police DO have to keep them happy, no?

        Gilad Atzmon has a sad video featured on his WP channel about what is happening in Israel to many women who’ve been forced into sex-slavery. It’s horrific.

      • Citizen
        July 19, 2011, 9:59 pm

        Here’s Atzmon’s video on human trafficking in the Jewish state: link to gilad.co.uk

        Just one more thing Israel is famous for; the list goes on–it’s not all Noble prizes by a long shot.

      • Sumud
        July 17, 2011, 9:47 pm

        1 million Chinese come to Israel to resettle Negev.

        LOL, what a nutjob.

      • Shingo
        July 17, 2011, 11:29 pm

        1 million Chinese come to Israel to resettle Negev.

        Yes, I can see 1 million Chinese moving to a dust bowl, living under apartheid and being exploited for cheap labor.

      • Lightbringer
        July 18, 2011, 6:10 am

        Ehm…
        Actually Chinese people already live in Apartheid state and being exploited for cheap labor.

      • Shingo
        July 18, 2011, 6:47 am

        No, they are not living in an apartheid state and the labor is not cheap by chinese standards.

      • Lightbringer
        July 18, 2011, 8:13 am

        ROFL

        link to google.com – China Apartheid
        About 9,210,000 results (0.06 seconds)
        link to google.com – Israel Apartheid
        About 2,010,000 results (0.08 seconds)

        link to bing.com – China Apartheid
        3,440,000 results
        link to bing.com – Israel Apartheid
        4,710,000 results

        link to google.com – China Slave Labour
        About 1,660,000 results (0.06 seconds)
        link to bing.com – – China Slave Labour
        37,100,000 results

      • richb
        July 18, 2011, 12:00 am

        From Intel’s press room:

        While Intel generates approximately three-fourths of its revenues overseas, it maintains three-fourths of its microprocessor manufacturing in the United States. This new investment commitment also allows the company to maintain its existing manufacturing employment base at these sites.

        I work as an engineer in the semiconductor industry. Worldwide manufacturing operations are designed to be flexible in order to deal with supply change disruptions. Intel would react to a threat by dropping Israel like a hot potato. Why?

        Fassberg said the Kiryat Gat plant will be Intel’s second worldwide to produce the smaller, next-generation 22-nanometer chips. The first will be in the United States.

        This is the threat to the second and not first source. Intel would find a different second source and before that more of the 22nm Ivy Bridge chips will come state side.

      • Lightbringer
        July 18, 2011, 6:56 am

        It’s not about manufacturing only – you guys seem to forget that microprocessors have to be developed first.

      • Shingo
        July 18, 2011, 8:32 am

        Development does not take place exclusively in Israel. That’s why Intel is a US company, not an Israeli one.

      • richb
        July 18, 2011, 8:46 am

        I don’t think you realize how precarious Israel’s high tech industry is. Israel was chosen because of its low cost. This has been overtaken by locations such as Bangalore and Shanghai. Roughly ten times the engineering job openings are still in the U.S. over Israel.

        Intel’s Bangalore operations are in one of the city’s most sophisticated buildings, with over 200,000 square feet of office and lab space, and one of the first multi-level parking structures in the area. Originally a sales and marketing office since 1988, Intel India soon expanded due to the country’s Information Technology and engineering talent pool. Now the majority of work done at Intel India is software and hardware engineering. Intel’s Bangalore operations include the most Intel divisions in any country outside the United States. Employees primarily work for the Intel India Development Center (IIDC) and the sales and marketing organization.

        Since its inception in 1999, the IIDC has grown to employ more than 800 employees, all supporting its mission of delivering high-quality, cost-effective Intel solutions through technology leadership and quality engineering. The IIDC is Intel’s largest non-manufacturing site internationally. It invests heavily in India’s education and community development.

      • Citizen
        July 18, 2011, 10:26 am

        Here’s a world-wide list of Intel’s key R & D locations, and what they mainly work on at each of them–note that Bangalore & US locations seem to be the most seminal operations & that Israel is not even on the list: link to techresearch.intel.com

      • talknic
        July 18, 2011, 1:09 am

        Lightbringer July 16, 2011 at 6:28 pm ….. Hilarious…

        “Since when the majority is right?”

        Recognizing Israel, East Timor, Sth Sudan maybe? Although it could be argued that the first instance was a drastic mistake for some Jewish folks aspirations for the moment. It’ll be interesting to see how many Jewish folk are willing to take up Palestinian citizenship (again) when the Provisional State of Palestine is finally given it’s first opportunity to declare itself an Independent Sovereign State, after at least 2,000 years of occupation.

        “Not only USA will lose it’s only ally in the region – and one of not-so-many allies in the world.”
        link to en.wikipedia.org allies in the region… Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey… Elsewhere .. Australia, the UK, France, Germany, Japan, Sth Korea, New Zealand, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Poland, Taiwan, Indonesia … all the NATO countries… shall I go on?

        This is classic ” Jewish population in Israel increased by 70%; new cities are built in Negev”

        Through taxing current tax free contribution to Israel by US citizens? It normally works this way, although theoretical Hasbara likely has some other weird notion ; the donor loses their tax deduction for donations to Israel.

        “Israel signs FTA agreement with China, 35 billions Euro.
        1 million Chinese come to Israel to resettle Negev.”

        A) What does Israel produce that would produce a projected turnover of 35 billions Euro trading with China? (lies aren’t worth the space they take up) B) They’d be Jewish Chinese? Or Israel is gonna increase the number of non-Jews in the Jewish state, taking homes already desperately needed by Israelis?

        “no more Intel processors..”

        Try Arizona ….. Intel OWNS the technology. Not Israel. (some folk really are quite thick)

        “AMD could only supply 20% of demand, no more Macs – they are built with Iintel, no more Microsoft Windows”

        When you desperately use obsolete information, I’m sure anything you dream up is possible.

        Amazing how much folk can learn by examining the contaminated droppings of a ziocaine addict.

      • mig
        July 18, 2011, 2:57 am

        Just one correction. US doesnt have military base in our country, Finland. Or any other than our own army bases.

      • talknic
        July 18, 2011, 5:15 am

        Hi mig

        Oooops. The map address should have been separated thus ‘Allies in the region…

    • pineywoodslim
      July 16, 2011, 8:00 pm

      I think the only thing the US needs to do is withhold its cover for Israel at the UN and other international forums. Then just get out of the way and observe the flow of events: international sanctions, criminal indictments of Israeli officials, calls for UN peacekeeping forces to protect Palestinians, etc.

      • annebeck58
        July 17, 2011, 7:01 pm

        THAT is a great idea.

        Too bad it won’t happen.

      • Sumud
        July 17, 2011, 9:45 pm

        I think the only thing the US needs to do is withhold its cover for Israel at the UN and other international forums.

        agree pineywoodslim – this is the critical issue in American’s list of Israel’s pressure points.

        With the exception of the marines going to clean out the settlements I think everything else on American’s list will occur on an incremental basis over the next decade or two, as a result of Israel’s now accelerating descent into fascism, the total collapse of hasbara, the BDS campaign and the world’s new focus on Israel in light of Lebanon 2006, Gaza 2008/09 and the executions on the first Free Gaza Flotilla.

        But it is the US withholding of the UN SC veto that would impact events most rapidly in Israel and Palestine; I also think international sanctions on Israel would rapidly follow. The interesting thing is what will happen after the UN vote on the admission of Palestine as a full member state in September. If Palestinians use the process established by the US in the 1950s to overturn a UN SC veto (the “Uniting for Peace” resolution) – as they have said they will – then the US veto may effectively be neutered.

        Interesting times!

      • Hostage
        July 18, 2011, 1:19 am

        But it is the US withholding of the UN SC veto that would impact events most rapidly in Israel and Palestine

        It has never been definitively settled whether there is such a thing as a “veto” in the Security Council on membership applications. It’s hard to see how membership in the UN could be considered a matter that “threatens international peace and security” – when Palestine enjoys all of the privileges of membership except the vote and it’s statehood has been formally recognized by the majority of UN member states. Article 27 of the Charter stipulates that “Decisions of the Security Council on procedural matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members.” So, the Security Council or the General Assembly could request an advisory opinion on that question. Camille Mansour had an excellent newspaper article that was reprinted by the Institute for Palestine Studies about Palestinian Options at the United Nations. It mentions that as one of the possibilities.

        Note: Mansour’s “Option 3″ describing the process to request accession to the Statute of the ICJ is a bit misleading. She leaves the impression that Security Council permission is required to accede to the Rome Statute of the ICC, but that is NOT the case. The statute is open for signature by all States that have, in practice, been recognized by the General Assembly. Here is the text of Article 125:

        Signature, ratification, acceptance, approval or accession

        1. This Statute shall be open for signature by all States in Rome, at the headquarters of the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, on 17 July 1998. Thereafter, it shall remain open for signature in Rome at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Italy until 17 October 1998. After that date, the Statute shall remain open for signature in New York, at United Nations Headquarters, until 31 December 2000.

        2. This Statute is subject to ratification, acceptance or approval by signatory States. Instruments of ratification, acceptance or approval shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

        3. This Statute shall be open to accession by all States. Instruments of accession shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

        The Obama Administration has pulled-out the old Reagan Administration 1988 playbook. Ambassador Rice (Good Cop) has already pointed out that nothing poses a bigger danger to US Congressional funding of the UN (Bad Cop) more than the Palestinian application for membership. I have no doubt that she would veto the application to “save” the UN Organization from itself.

        If Palestinians use the process established by the US in the 1950s to overturn a UN SC veto (the “Uniting for Peace” resolution)

        That process was never used to break-up the log jam of membership applications, e.g. Transjordan/Jordan 1946-1955. Many of the key players, like the current President of the General Assembly, have opined that “Uniting for Peace” won’t work in the case of a membership application (although it shouldn’t have worked in the case of a Security Council veto either – if the pedantic approach to constitutionalism is your cup of tea). I merely took that as a signal that he would support recognition in the General Assembly, but not a showdown with the Security Council over membership.

      • Sumud
        July 18, 2011, 9:06 am

        “Decisions of the Security Council on procedural matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members.”

        I never knew this Hostage. September promises to be dramatic one way or another.

        On that note, MJ Rosenberg has a piece at Al Jazeera quoting Robert Baer that Israel is planning to attack Iran before September.

  11. Les
    July 16, 2011, 2:33 pm

    And the US has always been hard at work making sure Israel got the “piece treaty” it wanted, which daily grows in size.

  12. seafoid
    July 16, 2011, 4:02 pm

    US is Israel’s “captive”. One woman’s “captive” is another man’s “gimp”.

  13. hughsansom
    July 16, 2011, 5:18 pm

    I don’t think there is any chance at all of Palestinians getting UN General Assembly affirmation of a State of Palestine. There is no limit to what the US and Israel will do to block any resolution. Israel will call it an act of war; most US members of Congress will follow suit. The US will threaten an end to funding of the UN (this would give China a perfect opportunity to assume a position the US is no longer either willing or competent to hold). Israel and the US will use financial and other threats (as recently done with Greece). Despite recent American handwringing over cyberattacks directed at the US, I think an obvious saber-rattling tactic would be for the US and Israel to engage in cyberattacks on others.

    As I said in another recent post, I believe things are escalating. Israel and its American proxies are sliding toward a new generation of atrocities. As Mondoweiss noted, settler violence against Palestinians has almost doubled. This is not incidental. The Israeli and US governments are enablers. Israel got away entirely with Operation Cast Lead. It is nearly irrelevant what the general perception is of such crimes when the world’s collective hegemons are either supportive (the US and to a lesser extent Europe) or utterly indifferent (China, India, Brazil, Russia).

    In my opinion, Israel is moving toward mass expulsions from pre-1967 Israel to Gaza, the West Bank, and to the extent that refugees will be accepted, bordering countries. In the West Bank, Palestinians will be corralled into massive ghettoes (a process under way now for decades) allowing Israel to take permanent control of water resources and most arable land.

    Anti-democratic, permanent security state measures in Israel, the US, Europe will sideline or suppress criticism and dissent while other countries never allow precious little democracy to begin with (notably China).

    The only hope for Palestinians is that the US is so thoroughly self-destructing that it will no longer be able to fund and arm Israeli atrocities. But just as, in the midst of American decline, new ways are invented to transfer wealth from the poor and middle class to the rich or to perpetuate the war of America against All, I suspect there will be no shortage of invention in the service of Israeli crimes against humanity.

    • Lightbringer
      July 16, 2011, 7:41 pm

      As Mondoweiss noted, settler violence against Palestinians has almost doubled.Settler violence has almost doubled indeed, however reasons behind that are a far more complicated than an outsider might think.

      In my opinion, Israel is moving toward mass expulsions from pre-1967 Israel to Gaza, the West Bank, and to the extent that refugees will be accepted, bordering countries.This is nonsense.
      Not only it is technically impossible to forcefully remove population of over 1 000 000 (one million) – there will be hundreds of thousands of victims on both sides, the main reason is that the majority of Israeli society would never accept something like that.
      Unless of course a third intifada will erupt and Israeli Arabs will take active part in it, which is rather unlikely tho, they like the way they have it.

      • libra
        July 16, 2011, 9:18 pm

        Lb: “Not only it is technically impossible to forcefully remove population of over 1 000 000 (one million) – there will be hundreds of thousands of victims on both sides, the main reason is that the majority of Israeli society would never accept something like that.”

        But Lightbringer, surely you’ve got to make room for the 1 million Chinese Jews you were forecasting settling in the Negev? In your previous comment, remember? Or has there been a shift change?

      • Lightbringer
        July 17, 2011, 4:18 am

        Do not distort my words.
        Chinese. Just Chinese. Not Jews.

        Besides, Negev is not populated.

      • Chaos4700
        July 17, 2011, 10:16 am

        Besides, Negev is not populated.

        So you think the Bedouins are mythical creatures, then?

      • straightline
        July 17, 2011, 5:55 pm

        Lightbringer:

        I’m confused: are you saying that Israel would react to external pressures by having 1M Chinese non-Jewish immigrants – presumably with voting rights? Do you understand what you’re saying? Do you understand Zionism?

        As to the US invading independent states – where have you been the last few years – well the last many years? Admittedly being a nuclear power – if undeclared – would on the basis of past evidence deter the US. It would seem a good reason for a country to acquire nuclear weapons fast.

        As to allies, the US has over 700 bases in 130 countries. Doesn’t seem to be a shortage of those and the number might actually rise if it abandoned support for Israel.

        Please explain the complicated reasons for the rise in settler violence.

      • annebeck58
        July 17, 2011, 6:13 pm

        And, I wonder; would these Chinese (non-Jews) also sign on the proverbial dotted line that Israel is a land for JEWS-only? — that it is a Jewish-state?

        Lightbringer(???) even your name gives me pause; how, exactly, would that work? Would Israeli zionists actually go along with that? Or, do the settlers just need more targets? Have the Palestinians figured out to hide too well (other than the babies) for the Zionist-Settlers (and other zionists) to find them and attack?
        Would the Chinese (NON JEWS) be targets? Is it to prove that it’s not ONLY the Palestinians (Arabs) that are hated by the zionists?

        Sorry, lightbringer, but I just don’t “get” your point here.

        Finally, just whom are you bringing light to?
        (Oh, I know that was nasty. I just don’t get zuppetry.)

      • Lightbringer
        July 18, 2011, 8:42 am

        “Please explain the complicated reasons for the rise in settler violence.”

        Since it is of no interest to wide public – indeed, who cares what these vile criminals think? – I’ll keep it to myself.

        As of the rest – I’ve answered to most questions earlier.

        P.S. Having a military base in the country does not necessarily means that the country is an ally.

      • Shingo
        July 18, 2011, 8:49 am

        Since it is of no interest to wide public – indeed, who cares what these vile criminals think? – I’ll keep it to myself.

        A little inconvenient to get into a discussion about that isn’t it Lucifer? You’re a bit like the mother who turns a blind eye to the sexual abuse teh father is inflicting on the daugher.

      • Chaos4700
        July 18, 2011, 9:16 am

        You know, maybe if Lightbulb can’t talk about the “vile criminal” settlers whom he likes to pretend he has no association with, then maybe he’ll talk about the his own government that actively funds them? Or how about the greater Israeli electorate that votes for settlement policy and its active funding? That’s a “vile criminal” he should know, right? All he has to do is talk about his own thoughts.

      • Lightbringer
        July 19, 2011, 6:09 am

        Inconvenient?
        Hell, no.

        Merely pointless.

      • Chaos4700
        July 16, 2011, 9:43 pm

        Settler violence has almost doubled indeed, however reasons behind that are a far more complicated than an outsider might think.

        What’s complicated about a colonial invader beating up children on their way to school?

      • annie
        July 16, 2011, 9:51 pm

        nothing, he’s fabricating bs.

      • Lightbringer
        July 17, 2011, 4:21 am

        What is complicated is *why* only after 60 years of invaders started to beat children on their way to school.

      • Chaos4700
        July 17, 2011, 8:38 am

        Sixty years? As if you Israelis magically started it doing this last year. What, we’re supposed to believe those five hundred villages razed themselves? Or that Palestinians hadn’t had the miracle of childbirth until Euro-Zionists brought it back to the Holy Land?

        Please. There are stories upon stories for GENERATIONS about how brutal you Israelis are. Don’t pretend that just because now there are cameras on you it wasn’t happening before.

      • stevieb
        July 17, 2011, 8:59 am

        thank you. I almost choked when I read ”lightbringer’s’ comment…

      • mig
        July 17, 2011, 2:42 am

        Lb: “Not only it is technically impossible to forcefully remove population of over 1 000 000″.

        ++++ In 1948 750 000 worked just fine. Extra 250 000+ to that number dont do much difference.

        ” the main reason is that the majority of Israeli society would never accept something like that”

        ++++ Like in 1948 ?

        “Unless of course a third intifada will erupt and Israeli Arabs will take active part in it, which is rather unlikely tho, they like the way they have it.”

        ++++ So you did install some loophole to your theory. And btw., even if they take part next intifada, that doesnt justify eviction part of a population. In any case. International law, ring any bell ?

        Naaah, i didnt think so.

      • American
        July 17, 2011, 2:02 pm

        “Not only it is technically impossible to forcefully remove population of over 1 000 000 (one million) ‘

        Actually it’s not impossible. Germany had a population of 523,000 Jews. Before the war even began they emigrated 350,000 of them out of the country.
        When the war began there were less than 200,000 some Jews living in Germany. Poland had the closest and largest population of Jews at that time and they were the bulk of Jews Germany transported to camps in Germany. So if you believe the 6 million number of Jews in camps it’s entirely possible to move large numbers…if Israel is as efficent as the Nazis.
        Israelis ran out 750,000 some Palestines after 1948.

      • Lightbringer
        July 19, 2011, 6:32 am

        Actually it is impossible.
        Your comparison to Germany is rather stupid:
        1 000 000 in Israel is about 12% of population.

        500 000 in 1939 Germany is less that 0.75% of 70 000 000 (seventy millions)

        As of 1947-8 expulsion – you are forgetting that a great many of Palestinian Arabs left on their own, hardly facing any real threat – which obviously won’t happen today.

      • annebeck58
        July 19, 2011, 4:19 pm

        Lightbringer!!! (wow, and ugh)

        “As of 1947-8 expulsion – you are forgetting that a great many of Palestinian Arabs left on their own, hardly facing any real threat..”

        Whatt?? “..left on their OWN..”?? Where? -in “camps”?
        In actuality, they were not a threat to the zionist-state; they were, and are still, threatened BY Israel. Going camping may be fun, but being forced to live in a camp is not exactly that.
        How would you like to live in a relief-camp for all of your life? How do you think you’d like being forced to live in a tent? ..semi-permanent structures, in Palestine, are bulldozed, quite efficiently. Arabs are not generally given permits to build homes, so all are considered illegal and are removed; your entire family, for decades, living in a concentration camp, surrounded by wire, fences, and walls? Would you enjoy the freedom of the IOF raids, at any given time, of your home?
        I just cannot stand your beliefs. I have to say you have out-done (even) me in Zidiotry, when I was at my worst and on the side of what has become the LUNATIC State.

        How did or do these people face, “no real threat”, when they are living, literally, under the gun, moment by moment? They cannot even go to sleep without fear of attack.
        Times have changed, LB; thanks, mainly due to the internet, the truth is not only out there, it is here. Please do research this.

  14. radii
    July 16, 2011, 5:20 pm

    Actions speak louder than words

    israel uses words as tools to delay, cover, obfuscate, deflect, misdirect, you-name-it … as they are a bad faith actor

    If you keep your eye on the actions, the message is clear: ongoing ethnic-cleansing since 1948, ongoing racism, ongoing land-grabs, ongoing illegal appropriation of land, ongoing government support of terrorist-settler activity, and on and on it goes

    israel was never committed to any kind of peace process – it was merely a tool to use in pursuit of the above-named goals

  15. talknic
    July 17, 2011, 3:36 am

    “From the very beginning in 1967…”

    On the 31st Aug 1949 Israel made it’s first official claim to territories beyond the extent of it’s sovereign frontiers after the extent of Israeli sovereignty had already been recognized. The request was denied.

    When Israel declared, what was not Israeli was defined by default. What remained of the Provisional State of Palestine after the recognition of Israel by the majority of the International Community of Nations, fell under the UN Charter Chapt XI.

  16. Charon
    July 17, 2011, 11:57 am

    The US will never say “this is fraud” because Israel infiltrated our government and has a veto on our foreign policy. The war mongering neocons during the Bush administration (Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, etc.) controlled every important aspect of our defense department. This is a conflict of interest! How they wound up in these positions should be open to a criminal investigation.

    Most of those neocons have been working together since the late 70s. They’ve written about partitioning Iraq before we were ever involved in a war there, written prophecies about Israeli wars (especially Feith), wrote “A Clean Break”, were members of PNAC, and wound up in our government where they became instrumental in pushing us into a ridiculous war with Iraq.

    If a bunch of North Koreans wound up in our defense department after two decades of calling for the nuking of South Korea, and then we nuked South Korea, people would be suspicious. Nobody is suspicious about Israel because the public impression is imposed upon us. NYT runs an article exposing Dennis Ross and Obama puts him in charge of ‘peace talks’ again recently. Nobody is suspicious?

  17. annebeck58
    July 17, 2011, 3:37 pm

    “If there is anything to be learned from years of disappointment and failure, it’s that the so-called peace process is simply a vehicle for Israel to pretend there is some potential for progress even as on the ground they are making it impossible because of their settlement project. ”

    That IS the problem, exactly. Will Israel even attempt to ever make peace? Why should they? They are still, as ever, getting what they want.
    So, what is in it for them, if they do decide peace is more beneficial? IS peace more beneficial? I am afraid not.

  18. Richard Witty
    July 18, 2011, 5:16 am

    Anybody up for a poll here?

    Do you want the Palestinian effort for recognition of 67 borders to occur?

    Or, do you prefer that it not occur?

    Perhaps that likud remain in power in Israel, continue to annex, then advocate for a one-person one-vote election?

    The recognition of Palestine at 67 borders would firm up Israel as complying with the Arab League proposal (even if not voluntarily), and result in universal recognition from the Arab world (if they are true to their word).

    It would end the prospect of a single state, except through the path of EU like unification.

    • Shingo
      July 18, 2011, 6:39 am

      Do you want the Palestinian effort for recognition of 67 borders to occur?

      Does the Israeli leadership?
      Does AIPAC?
      Does teh White House?
      Does Congress?

      The recognition of Palestine at 67 borders would firm up Israel as complying with the Arab League proposal (even if not voluntarily), and result in universal recognition from the Arab world (if they are true to their word).

      Israel have threatened to annex large chunks of teh West Bank, if they remain true to their word, so what is your source of information?

    • libra
      July 18, 2011, 7:24 am

      Richard,

      I certainly would like there to be UN recognition of the 1967 borders. But surely it’s what happens after that is important and would depend largely on how Israel reacts.

      Your comment touches on some interesting ideas and scenarios. But one glaring omission is that of the settlements. I don’t speak for the Palestinians, but the presence of the settlements seems to me to destroy any remaining cohesiveness of an independent Palestine, as well as occupying a large amount of prime land that they would need for returning refugees.

      My own view is that the settlements are illegal and the settlers would need to be enticed back to Israel as part of a peace agreement on the 1967 borders. Lightbringer has proposed the Negev be the home to 1 million non-Jewish Chinese. Of course, that’s a fatuous idea but it does indicate that Israel could house the returning settlers.

      Your position up to now has been the settlers would acquire “title” to the land they occupy and stay in Palestine. To me, this is both wrong and impractical. To balance this, Israel would need to accept (as a minimum) an equivalent number of Palestinian refugees (e.g. in the Negev). Once you get to this level of commingling, you have a de-facto single-state and the only way to make that work is to formalise it as a democracy with equal rights for all.

      I assume the compromise inherent in any two state agreement based on the Saudi plan, is that the Palestinians would limit the right of return of refugees to Israel in return for a withdrawal by Israel to it’s 1967 borders. So I think a more interesting poll would be one for Israel and its supporters. Would you prefer a “Jewish state” on the 1967 borders or a single-state with equal rights for all? By the way, which would you choose?

      • Richard Witty
        July 18, 2011, 8:07 am

        Thanks for responding civilly Libra.

        Palestine should be able to accept a 10% minority, likely only around 1/2 of those currently living in those settlements would choose to stay if that meant renouncing Israeli citizenship, and/or if there were to be any inconvenience in traveling across the border.

        I don’t think that the amount of land in the settlements would make it impossible to repatriate Palestinians, perhaps the selection of land. I don’t know if the settlement land is the best land. The settlement apartment and development complexes would certainly be among the most expensive living areas in Palestine, and even if 1/2 of the residents left, would remain as the areas that the elites in Palestine lived.

        I haven’t really heard about what the PA’s repatriation approach would be.

        I would prefer a Jewish state in 67 borders over a democratic single state. Isn’t that obvious? The very very high level of confidence of Jewish security and continuity of self-determination is not yet offered by any in the Arab world.

      • Shingo
        July 18, 2011, 8:37 am

        I would prefer a Jewish state in 67 borders over a democratic single state. Isn’t that obvious?

        Yrd Witty, justice and democracy have never been your thing.

        And stop plaing dumb. You knoew very wel that the illegal settlements are built to annex the best land and water supplies.

        The very very high level of confidence of Jewish security and continuity of self-determination is not yet offered by any in the Arab world.

        There is no level of confidence that will satisfy extremists like yourself. The arab world has offerd to recognize Israel as per the 1967 borders and to normalize relations. That means opening trade between Israel and the Arab world, which is the greatest securityguarantee anyone can offer.

        Of course, it never enters into your suplremacist little mind that the Palestinians and Arab states would also apperecite a security guarantee, especially Lebanon and Iran.

      • libra
        July 18, 2011, 9:20 am

        Richard,

        It’s a pleasure to have a meaningful discussion with you. That’s possible today because I think you’ve addressed serious issues with relative clarity. I hope we can continue to discuss the real issues in a constructive manner. We actually may not be so far apart in the most strategic aspect, for I think we both see some sort of regional economic union (perhaps less politically integrated than the EU) evolving that will transform the region for all its peoples.

        I’ve often criticised you and other Zionists if being vague on Israel’s borders and not seriously thinking about Israel’s future. You’ve certainly been clear all along that you want a two-state solution. No one could be a bigger supporter of the concept. But it has always seemed that to get there, it’s the Palestinians that have to make all the concessions, and that Hamas is always the impediment. That has always seemed to me to be an utterly wrong position both morally and intellectually, and has prevented serious discussion of the underlying issues and realities with you.

        Nor would I say you have always been clear on the 1967 borders as you have been today. Though you do seem to have been edging towards them of late, having already admitted they are more defendable than the current gerrymandered borders.

        But how meaningful are the 1967 borders without the settlers returning to Israel? This would be where we appear to still differ. Before I started reading Mondoweiss, I would describe myself as a strong supporter of the two-state solution. But I have become convinced that far from the Palestinians being the impediment to me, it is Israel, and most specifically the settlers and their supporters.

        Now I am neutral on the issue of a one state or two state solution. Ultimately, I see that as a decision for the Palestinians as to what they will accept, and that probably depends on how Israel reacts. But I think they will demand (and rightly so) significant concessions from Israel in return for a compromise on the right of return. So my question to you still remains. If the Palestinians demanded all the settlers returned to Israel as part of such a compromise, would you accept it? In other words, how badly do you really want “the Jewish state”.

      • Chaos4700
        July 18, 2011, 9:21 am


        I would prefer a Jewish state in 67 borders over a democratic single state. Isn’t that obvious?

        BOOKMARK THIS, people. This is what support for ethnic cleansing in the present looks like.

      • annebeck58
        July 18, 2011, 10:19 am

        Wow.., libra? Now, I am not trying to attack you and I understand, to an extent, how you would like civil discourse with Richard, but…;
        You see Richard as NOT vague or ambiguous on a two-state solution, back to the ’67 borders? Yet, you admit that he is about as ambiguous as one can be about the “settlers”. Aren’t the settlers a large part of this problem? Were you Palestinian, they would be a terrible problem for you, let me assure you that. Are those settlers NOW Palestinian? Or, are they Israelis? If they would be Israeli citizens, how do they live outside of what has been as accepted Israeli borders? If Palestinian, why are they not ruled by the Palestinian Authority? (of course, why are NO Palestinians actually ruled by the PA or Hamas?) Surely, these settlers are not in “limbo” as far as which state they consider themselves a part of.., so maybe it’s just Richard (and you?) who sees this as ambiguous. The settlers know that they will be accepted as Israeli, and that leaves their houses (even though on Palestinian soil) Israeli. It is an essential ploy in this land-grab.
        Until and unless Israel stops with the “Jewish ONLY roads”, in Palestine, and the watch-towers in what has become an every increasingly enlarged “green zone” (that looks more like a red zone based on the amount of blood shed there by Israel), along with the “special laws” and rules for Arabs, as second-class (apartheid) citizens (are they citizens?), there can be no real borders enforced.
        The wall or collection of walls in PALESTINE, built by Israel (On Palestinian soil) has not defined the borders, as those walls or segments of walls are simply moved further into Palestine whenever Israel decides on yet another plot of land or “neighborhood” they feel like developing. While Palestine shrinks, Israel grows.
        And, it seems to me, based on his commentary, this IS the way Richard wants it. He does not seem ambiguous in the least.

        Regarding Palestine; when will Israel finally believe they have “enough”? Much of their land is not used for inhabitants. Quite a bit is used as “forest”.., which is insane in itself; a piney forest planted with non-native trees, in the middle of a DESERT is kind of ridiculous, and we did see the inevitability of such an inane decision (to plant and to get kids from the US– myself included- to collect funds for these forests when we were too young and dumb to know better) last year in the Mt.Carmel fires. We’re seeing more of “mother nature” righting an absolute wrong; these “forests”, in the fires of yesterday.
        These lands are not being used for settlements, though they would hold settlers more efficiently than would they these cedars. Why is that not a solution Richard can get behind; moving the settlers (ALL of them) to the deforested man-made forests? As someone else pointed out here, moving a million people (from the accepted land of Palestine) to the forests would not be impossible, unless Israeli government DECIDES it is impossible. And, it seems they have decided that, years ago, though that number has gotten larger each time the “impossible” excuse is made. Palestinians are moved out of the homes their parents, grandparents, and many ancestors back have lived in, on a daily basis. These homes are bulldozed to make room for more settlements, and in some cases, only the people are removed to make room for MORE Jewish “settlers” (home thieves). If it is possible to move Palestinians from their homes, how is it impossible to move Jewish settlers from what should never have been theirs to start with? Certainly, we know that Israel has the bulldozers, thanks to Caterpillar. Why not put them to good use and bulldoze the settlements?

        Libra; I am concerned I am talking with someone who does not want to comprehend the seriousness of the very dire situation many Palestinians (even all Palestinians, to one extent or the other) find themselves in. Are you considering what these people go through, constantly; that not only can their homes be bulldozed out from under them, but they can lose their lives at the WHIM of any Israeli with a gun? I don’t know if you’ve gotten that far into what’s really happening in Palestine, but perhaps you should do a bit more research before deciding a “discussion” with *farce of a neutral Israeli”, Richard, and being “neutral”, yourself, is worthwhile.
        I mean, honestly; HOW can anyone remain, “neutral” on the issue of Palestine/Israel, if one knows the facts on the ground?
        I truly do hope this did not sound like an attack. It was not meant to be, but I am passionate about this problem, and not neutral – at ALL. I don’t see how anyone in the world, with access to the internet, could be neutral any longer!

      • annebeck58
        July 18, 2011, 10:35 am

        Sorry. libra, but I have one more point to make.
        Yes, I agree about Hamas and the supporters (those in Gaza– ONLY- who voted them in) are always to blame, as ridiculous as that is.
        But, what about OCCUPIED East-Jerusalem and the OCCUPIED West-Bank? Why do so many ignore the fact that Israel has run over and is still bulldozing great parts of the West-Bank AND East-Jerusalem, while Hamas has not one thing to do with that area of the State of Palestine? I know that’s the “excuse” for the problems in Gaza, but what is the problem in the OCCUPIED territories, other than Israel?

        (btw, for anyone wondering why I would consistently place “OCCUPIED” in caps; I decided a few years back that I would never discuss the territories without including the word, OCCUPIED, to make a point. The world needs to comprehend that it IS also not, “free”, it is less free than parts of Gaza, from what I’ve seen., not that Gaza is free; from Israel, whatsoever! But, at least those in Gaza do not have to live next-door to these awful settlers.)

        Please, just look at a map of these OCCUPIED territories.

      • libra
        July 18, 2011, 11:23 am

        annebeck58: “Sorry. libra, but I have one more point to make.”

        Nothing to apologise about. The occupied territories are in my view all illegal settlements outside Israel’s 1967 borders. Their extent (and continued expansion) presents a huge obstacle to a practical and just two-state solution. That this is the result of a deliberate policy by Israel is difficult for RW to admit to, because it means Israel itself has scuppered his beloved “Jewish state”.

      • annie
        July 18, 2011, 11:59 am

        Yes, I agree about Hamas and the supporters (those in Gaza– ONLY- who voted them in) are always to blame, as ridiculous as that is.

        what do you mean by ‘supporters’? the overwhelming majority of palestinians in both WB and gaza cast their vote for hamas over fatah. this signaled ‘regime change’, iow it was a direct kick at the pa. so how is it you hold gazans more responsible for that than those in the WB? or perhaps i am misunderstanding you.

        also it is helpful in a long thread (even in a short thread) to copy paste what previous text you are referencing. thnx

      • annebeck58
        July 18, 2011, 12:16 pm

        Annie;

        “..the overwhelming majority of palestinians in both WB and gaza cast their vote for hamas over fatah. this signaled ‘regime change’..,”

        Yes, I understand it was a kick (I say in the teeth) to the PA, for doing nothing positive for any of Palestine. And, yes, I also understand it was a majority, mainly in Gaza, though, but there WERE plenty who did not vote for Hamas (out of fear or for whatever reason), and ALL are being punished.
        I really don’t hear about any Palestinians, other than IN Gaza, being specifically punished for this. When I hear from zidiots, in reference to Hamas, it has to do with Gaza, only. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that Fatah/PA is running (in their impotent fashion) the OCCUPIED territories? Hamas has not been ruling the rest of Palestine; only Gaza, which is why the PA is in it, at all, any longer.

        (Sorry I don’t always cut and paste- generally, I figured that the “reply” button would make it clear whom I was replying to, which was libra, in this case. — not that you cannot respond to either of us(!) I just figured it would be clear. Besides, I would have to copy and paste so much in some of my responses, as I disagree (or agree) with so very much some say)

      • annebeck58
        July 18, 2011, 12:29 pm

        “Nothing to apologise about. The occupied territories are in my view all illegal settlements outside Israel’s 1967 borders… policy by Israel is difficult for RW to admit to, because it means Israel itself has scuppered his beloved “Jewish state”.”

        Oh, my fault here; I thought you were agreeing with RWitty, at least to a degree.
        I know my reason for not wanting to have to debate with someone like Witty has everything to do with the fact that I come across that sort every day. I could debate, and sometimes do, ad nauseum, the rights and the wrongs of Palestine and Israel. I think most of us deal with this each time we open our (virtual or otherwise) mouths to stand up for Palestine. So, I think anyone saying, “ban him”, does so as they simply want one free-space to say what they want without being bothered by someone like that.

        Still, as I have argued with friends of mine, when it comes to this; do we really need to preach to the choir, only? Or, should we open debate, in order to convince some (who may almost be there) to turn around and really look at what they are supporting. After all, I was on the side of Israel for almost fifty years, blindly, and I only figured this out during Cast Lead Ops. If I can change, anyone can change, but they need to be spoken with and those discussions need to be civil.
        So, I am saying, I get it.

        Peace.

      • libra
        July 18, 2011, 1:08 pm

        annbeck58: “I mean, honestly; HOW can anyone remain, “neutral” on the issue of Palestine/Israel, if one knows the facts on the ground?”

        I am not neutral about what Israel and the settlers do in the occupied West Bank, I believe their very presence is wrong and illegal, let alone their dreadful behaviour. Rather I said something quite different, that I am neutral on whether there is a single-state or two-state solution. That’s a decision for the Palestinians ultimately. I don’t see a just and practical two-state solution as likely, but if Israel wanted it enough to withdraw to its 1967 borders together with the settlers then I imagine that could be the basis of a viable peace agreement.

        Surely one of the main purposes of MW is to engage in discussion with opponents? That is usually difficult given the nature of most Zionist comments. But I thought RW today made more serious and clear comments than usual, worthy of a serious and civil response – in particular to raise the issue of the settlers. I’m sorry if you don’t like me engaging with RW or the manner I did so today. But less face it, there won’t be peace in Israel/Palestine without enemies / former enemies learning how to engage with each other.

      • Citizen
        July 18, 2011, 1:28 pm

        annebeck58, perhaps it might be instructive for readers here if you tell us why it took you almost 50 years to quit blindly supporting Israel? And maybe with your experience of others like Witty, you could tell us
        why Cast Lead Ops doesn’t dent their POV? Your experience is important here.

      • annebeck58
        July 18, 2011, 6:39 pm

        “.. perhaps it might be instructive for readers here if you tell us why it took you almost 50 years to quit blindly supporting Israel? ”

        Well, Citizen, it is a very long story, but I will try to shorten it, at least somewhat, while trying to pass on the most important issues.

        I was born in the fifties, in a town in Connecticut, filled with many different kinds of people, most either first or second-generation American. None of my grandparents were born in the States, and I learned to get along with people of all different backgrounds.
        Many of my neighbors and friends were Jewish (until I was about 12, I believed everyone not Jewish was Catholic!). Most of my Jewish friends’ parents had been in Germany or Poland or even Vienna, during the holocaust, and they bore the tattooed numbers on their arms. Some of my teachers also had those tats. Because of this, I was taught (would say almost brainwashed, now) that Jews were special and should be given the utmost respect (moreso than “normal people”).
        In my neighborhood, we were trained to allow Jews to do things others would not get away with. It was simply how it was. It may still be that way, now. I left that area when I was seventeen, so wouldn’t really know.
        But, because of my upbringing, I was ever on the side of Jews. I still am, in general. However, I believed that speaking out against Israel was being antisemitic (this could be what RW believes, whether he realises it or not.) I mean; honestly, this was drilled into our impressionable minds from the day we each started Catholic school at the age 4 or 5 and 6 for some. I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but the Catholic Church is ULTRA- supportive of Jews and of Israel.
        Even though I was able to get away from the Catholic Church (at the age of 15 or so), I went immediately to the Church of Christ, which also supports Israel, beyond their support for themselves. I began college in a Christian University, and the very first day of Bible class, we were taught about Israel! Sounds nutts..? It was.
        Finally, when I was 19, I realised that it was all a bunch of hooey- the church thing (religion). I went through a lot of changes that year, but never did get over the unilateral support for Israel and, by default, all Jews. That change took me a lot longer than it should have.

        I’d say that, though I had become an (over-educated, particularly in the area of religion and religious texts) atheist, I never got past the thought that Jews needed my protection and not my questions. Finally, so many years later, when Cast-Lead Ops began, some of my Jewish friends, in particular, began to send me emails saying; you MUST help! Given that this came from them, I was able to really take a look at Palestine, but mainly at Gaza. It took me less than a week to see what was really going on.
        I lost many “friends” in that first week, and even more since. I have family members who are Jewish and are Catholic and neither will accept that Israel and it’s zionist program has nothing to do with the Jewish faith. They support the Zionist program, as do most churches in the States. I am sure you have heard of, “Christian Zionists”? I did not know what that term really meant until fairly recently. And, now, it makes less sense than when I knew nothing about it.

        Over the past few years, I have learned to explain the difference between Judaism and Zionism.. one is a religion., a faith, and the other is a political ideology consistent with apartheid.

        I am really not sure what the difference is between me and Witty. Perhaps he is still involved with a particular church that preaches the same sort of thing I heard as a child? I know I have always cared about people, in general, and I have always worked for various charities. Even as a child, I went door-to-door, and I collected spare change to help plant those forests in “Israel”. Now, when I think back, I am angered that I was used for such a thing. I had no idea, until the Mt. Carmel fires (last year?) about the number of Palestinian villages that were razed in order to cleanse the area (of it’s inhabitants) and plant those ridiculous trees.

        If I could say anything to RWitty and hope he would take it for what it’s worth, it would be: Truly, LOOK at what is happening there. Don’t excuse the Zionists, any longer, just because they are Jews. Don’t do what I did for so many years. Wake up, now, and help these people! Even stopping the support for Israel is of some help to Palestine. It’s surely not everything they need, but it is a start. It’s where I started, once my Jewish friends told me I needed to pay more attention. Funny, it’s like they gave me permission to investigate this, but without that, I may have never looked for myself.
        Witty; perhaps you’d feel most comfortable with the main group I started with: Jewish Voice for Peace(?). I’ve learned a lot from them, as well as by reading newspapers out of Jerusalem (JPost and Ha’aretz). Maybe this will help you to see as I have?

      • annebeck58
        July 18, 2011, 6:55 pm

        Libra:
        …I am not neutral about what Israel and the settlers do in the occupied West Bank..

        Yes, I figured that out in your last comment, and I responded there.
        And I agree with you.
        But, I also understand those who are so sick of being yelled at and called names by the other team. I’ve been harassed, stalked, and threatened (death threats), received phone calls at all hours, warning me to stop supporting Palestine. Because of that, I understand their point, yet as I have said the same thing as you, I get that, too.

      • Citizen
        July 18, 2011, 7:51 pm

        annebeck58, thank you so much for taking the time to share your journey. It is not very atypical for an American born and bred in terms of cultural indoctrination regarding Jews generally and as conflated with anything involving the activities of the state of Israel. Overriding it all is the American value: individualism. Judge people as individuals. It’s a great irony (and depressing to me personally) that it took you so long, and you had to be prodded, to realize you had to take that concept all the way to come to your present awareness. Such is the power of instilled guilt. A lot of stand-up comedians have done skits on Jewish guilt and Catholic guilt, each based on a patent to guilt. For the record, I was reared to be a Catholic, and was an altar boy, but left that faith in my heart about the same time you did.

      • Shingo
        July 18, 2011, 8:16 pm

        Annebeck,

        Your story is truly fascinating and inspiring. I am truly in awe of your ability to question what you were brainwashed into believing for so long – that couldn';t have been easy.

        I am curious however about how and why Cast Lead affected you to such an extent. Certainly most of us here were utterly disgusted and appalled at Israel’s actions, with the exceptino of Witty who completely justifies it.

        Why for example. did that event and not the 2006 war with Lebanon not affect you?

        As for your attempt to communicate any advice to Witty, you are wasting your time. The differences between you and he are far greater than you realize, because unlike you, Witty is fundamentally racist and regards Palestinians as inferior to Jews.

        We have all tried (myself included) to reason with him, but in spite of his patitudes and humanism, mutual acceptance etc., he will only go so far and no further. He’s unapologetic about his hypocrisy (ie. opposes BDS but supports siege on Gaza or considers the removal of settlers bad because its ethnic cleasing, but considers the ethnic cleassing of the Palestinians as no longer necessary). He doesn’t see any problem with Israel’s irrational violence – his prescription is not that Israel be curtailed or held to account (he hates the idea of justice whenit comes to Israel), but that no one should provoke Israel because that’s just how Israel is; that trying to change the status quo is unjust.

        Witty is not only a Zionist to the core, but a “Liberal Zionists” (the worst kind), and as such, his limitless capacity for denial and self deception has been imprinted into his DNA. He will forgive Israel anything. He’s admitted that his tribal allegiance prevents him from being honest and objective, so asking him to “Truly, LOOK at what is happening there” is futile.

        Witty would rather believe in his fantasy about Israel than consider the facts.

      • Shingo
        July 18, 2011, 8:29 pm

        annebeck58,

        I have to applaud you for expressing what so manhy of us feel, so eloquently – I would struggle to remain as civil and courteous as you. You hit the nail on the head with this question:

        I mean, honestly; HOW can anyone remain, “neutral” on the issue of Palestine/Israel, if one knows the facts on the ground?

        Which is why it is so nauseating to hear Witty complain how polemcis, or condeming Israel. Israel amn well deserves to be condemend and nothing less.

      • libra
        July 18, 2011, 8:39 pm

        annebeck58

        I think our responses got stuck in moderation together so I hadn’t seen your second response before I responded again, rather needlessly. Your story of how you came to change your mind is interesting. It seems the awful reality of Cast Lead finally allowed you to question the idea that Israel was special because it was Jewish. If only it was so easy with others. But human nature is such that emotion is more powerful than logic, thus an idealised notion can be clung to even when it clearly conflicts with perceived reality. All sorts of rationale will be invented to excuse the reality.

        In RW’s case (which I’m sure is by no means unique), his tribal support for the settlers would seem to be even greater than his emotional attachment to Israel as “the Jewish state”. Hence his logically absurd position of clinging to the two-state solution like a drowning man, whilst not being able to support the one thing that would make it possible, a full withdrawal to the 1967 borders including the settlers. Those last three words kill it for him.

      • Hostage
        July 19, 2011, 9:53 am

        “..the overwhelming majority of palestinians in both WB and gaza cast their vote for hamas over fatah. this signaled ‘regime change’..,”

        Not really, Hamas won 45 percent of the popular vote, while Fatah won 41 percent. The two parties formed a “unity government”. So both sides were duly “elected”. The reports about corruption in the Fatah party were certainly a factor. There have been similar reports recently about Hamas which allege they are profiting from the smuggling tunnels and are buying-up prime properties in Gaza, while other businesses are going broke.

        The President of the PA is not an honorary figurehead. He has the constitutional authority to dissolve the government and dismiss the Prime Minister at any time under Article 83(6) of the 2003 Basic Law. That would not be a “military coup”, despite the efforts of Vanity Fair to conflate it with one.

        Constitutionalism doesn’t usually provide any useful answers during civil wars. In many instances during the US civil war, the Constitution was simply ignored. Hamas did not accept the validity of the 2003 Basic Law before the 2006 elections, and they haven’t complied with its provisions since they won the elections. For example, ratification of death penalties is an exclusive right of the president of the Palestinian Authority, but Hamas has routinely imposed the death penalty without obtaining Presidential approval. Israel and the AHLC donors refused to fund or release revenues to the PA without unambiguous public assurances from Hamas regarding terrorism. Hamas triggered a financial crisis in the public sector when it refused to do that.

        The PA is on the bottom of the Palestinian political hierarchy. The PLO Executive and Central Committees have the power, under the terms of the 1988 declaration, to form and establish provisional governments; to conduct votes of confidence regarding provisional governments; to conduct foreign relations on behalf of the provisional government; and to act as sole representative of the Palestinian people. The 2003 Basic Law was ratified and promulgated as law by the President of the PLO Executive Committee (Abbas) on the basis of those understandings.

        After the 2006 elections, the US and Israel spent the next year and a half running a black flag operation to instigate a civil war between the two major factions. I posted some details in an earlier thread about that. I believe Israel and the US did that so the deadline for a final-status agreement could (once again) be delayed indefinitely. Abbas “took the money, took the weapons, and ignored the advice” as Moshe Dayan used to say. The Vanity Fair article outlines the fact that he did not act on repeated US demands to dissolve the PA government. I believe members of the Bush-Olmert team fooled the main stream media and Fatah-Hamas and got away with it. They were constantly leaking stories about preparations to attack Hamas in Gaza, much like the stream of rumors today about a strike against Iran. Hamas finally launched a “preemptive coup” against an “anticipated US-backed Fatah coup.

        The Vanity Fair Gaza Bombshell article would have made Bernays green with envy. My bullshit detector went “off scale” when author David Rose confirmed the details of a (government-planted) story with Sharon’s Shin Bet man Avi Dichter, John Bolton, David Wurmser, and Muhammad Dahlan.

        Wurmser co-authored Netanyahu’s “A New Strategy for Securing the Realm”; worked as Middle East Adviser to Vice President Dick Cheney; gave us Iraqi WMDs, the bogus Iraqi National Congress; was up to his ears in investigations about leaking classified information to Ahmad Chalabi and AIPAC; and was a cooperating witness in the Scooter Libby/Valarie Plame Affair. I just tune-out whatever he’s lying about at the moment. Ditto John Bolton. It appears that Gen. Dayton’s protégé, Dahlan, played the same role as Major Haddad in Lebanon (i.e. “the only thing that’s necessary is to find an officer, even just a Major. We should either win his heart or buy him with money”).

        In the Vanity Fair article Khalid Jaberi, a commander with Fatah’s al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade noted that:
        *Fatah is a large movement, with many schools inside it. “Dahlan’s school is funded by the Americans. There was no overall Fatah decision to confront Hamas.
        * “You know since the takeover, we’ve been trying to enter the brains of Bush and Rice, to figure out their mentality. We can only conclude that having Hamas in control serves their overall strategy, because their policy was so crazy otherwise.”

        Wikileaks subsequently revealed that Israel’s Military Intelligence Director, Amos Yadlin, said that Israel would be “happy” if Hamas took over Gaza because the IDF could then deal with Gaza as a hostile state. Israel has been isolating Gaza as part of its policy of bantustanization since 1991. I don’t believe that Israel ever had any intention of concluding a final status agreement that would alter that policy.

        Here is some information about the 2006 elections from a recent New York Times article:

        The Palestinian elections used a combination of a U.S.-style winner-take-all electoral system and a more European-style proportional voting system. . . .

        Palestinian voters had two votes, one for their favorite political party (the proportional vote) and another for individual candidates in winner-take-all districts where the highest vote-getters win. In the proportional vote, which is a national vote and therefore the best measure of the overall support for each political party, Hamas won about 45 percent of the popular vote and about the same percentage of seats — 30 of 66, not a majority. The incumbent party, Fatah, won about 41 percent of the popular vote and 27 of 66 seats, only three seats behind Hamas.

        So the popular vote actually was quite close, and if those were the only election results they would have produced a broadly representative legislature. Instead, the winner-take-all seats completely threw the election to Hamas.

        Hamas won only 41 percent of the vote in the winner-take-all districts, yet won 68 percent of those seats. That gave them 45 of 66 seats in the winner-take-all districts while Fatah won only 17 district seats even though they had 36 percent of the winner take all vote.

      • annebeck58
        July 19, 2011, 1:16 pm

        I have to say I am still embarrassed that it took me so long to work this out. But, yes; the Catholic guilt, along with the Jewish sadness (I cannot think of another word to describe what I was taught), was incredibly powerful and life-altering. I sometimes wonder, had I grown up in a different neighborhood, not so entrenched into the Jewish part of life, would I have come around quicker? Of course, my parents and their, “love for everyone” attitude also played a large part. Perhaps, if we had more Arabs; those who were not also Catholic, in the area during my formative years, things probably would have been different for me.
        Still, I got there. It took me half a century, but I got there. I am still hurt when certain zidiots claim that I am nothing but a “Jew-hater”, but one has to press on.

      • annebeck58
        July 19, 2011, 1:32 pm

        I am not sure if my response to you went through (I got the, “hey, you already said that” auto-response, so I hope it’s here).

        I did want to add one thing; Yes, I got the double-whammy of Catholic-guilt along with Jewish empathy and sadness.. It almost did me in! And, I have a feeling this is exactly what Witty is contending with (or bending to).

      • annebeck58
        July 19, 2011, 1:45 pm

        Actually, Shingo: I do feel very embarrassed that, when the Lebanon war was occurring, my thought was this: Why don’t those children stop throwing rocks?. (I know.) I was not really blaming them, in my mind; I simply wanted the soldiers to have no “cause” for shooting them. Now, I see things differently. Of COURSE these children are going to throw rocks. It is all they have!
        It’s the children of both Palestine and Lebanon who have my heart now, as well as the mothers. I physically ache for these people. Seeing the videos (which I admittedly ignored for many years) of the children and the mothers, watching their fathers shot, beaten, arrested, stolen away or killed, creates a scenario where they throw rocks. What do they have to live for if not for their land(s) and their families?

        And, now that I have come around; though I do try to be patient in order to spread the truth to others, I have very little patience for those who attack these children, in particular.

        I now have some friends in Lebanon, who have really taken the time to explain the whys of what has happened there (and is still happening there), so that I finally get the rationale of the Lebanese. Funny, there were Lebanese families in my neighborhood, too, but they were quite removed from the problems between Lebanon and Israel. At least I never do remember them discussing this. Maybe it had to do with their own Catholic faith?

      • annebeck58
        July 19, 2011, 1:49 pm

        Oh, and Shingo:

        What the HECK is a “Liberal Zionist”??

        “Witty is not only a Zionist to the core, but a “Liberal Zionists” (the worst kind), and as such, his limitless capacity for denial and self deception has been imprinted into his DNA.”

        I thought the term, “Christian Zionist” was crazy; “Liberal Zionist”, is INSANE! It absolutely makes zero sense. I think that maybe this is the sort of Zionist Gilad Atzmon writes of?

      • annebeck58
        July 19, 2011, 2:08 pm

        Shingo:

        “I am curious however about how and why Cast Lead affected you to such an extent. ”

        It was the Jews who gave me permission to look at it. It was my Jewish friends that constantly sent me notes about Gaza and their own astonishment over what Israel was doing. My Jewish girlfriends registered their disgust, with me, long before I was able to truly see Isreal for what it was. Had it not been for these friends, I don’t know that I would have changed my views, even today.

        And, this is why I try to hold my tongue when addressing those who have not yet made my journey. I certainly don’t always succeed, but I try. I mean, I do call them, “zidiots”, and, “zuppets”..; just saying…
        A few connected me with JVP, and my relationship with Israel and Zionism hasn’t been the same, since (thankfully!).

      • annebeck58
        July 19, 2011, 2:25 pm

        Hostage:

        “..the overwhelming majority of palestinians in both WB and gaza cast their vote for hamas over fatah. this signaled ‘regime change’..,”

        Not really, Hamas won 45 percent of the popular vote, while Fatah won 41 percent. The two parties formed a “unity government”.

        Yes, this was my understanding, as well. It is why I said that ALL are being punished for the votes of some.
        However, as it was a “democratic election”; just the kind we like to see here, in the USofA, why should anyone be punished for their vote?
        Regarding Hamas: I have to say I am pretty impressed with them. They have come up from a military orginazation, only, to more of a governing body. They tried a cease-fire, and they held to it, until Israelis broke it.
        I am sickened by those who believe all of Palestine; mainly all of Gaza, should be punished (annihilated) for voting for Hamas, who’s been trying to do a good job (in my view).
        No, I do not think this is what Annie was saying (that they deserve it).., but I also don’t believe that an overwhelming majority voted for Hamas. I actually (halfway) paid attention to those elections, and I worried like MANY Americans that Hamas would win.., which I now see was wrong (what is wrong with Hamas winning? Who are we or Israel to make their decisions?).

      • Citizen
        July 19, 2011, 4:00 pm

        annebeck58, maybe in another 50 years the majority of Americans will have awakened as you did? Small comfort. You attribute your much belated awakening to your local petri dish, but the problem is much wider, the lack of thought beyond wondering why the Palestinian parents allow their kids to throw stones–coupled with no thought at all as to why they throw them at armed men, trucks, tanks even. Most American don’t even know any Jews, let alone Jews who nag them to look at Gaza, for example. Yet their tax dollars support Israel’s rogue conduct. Very depressing.

        Atzmon writes of American Jews a la Finklestein’s characterization of them: “They have the world on a platter, much more than every day Americans, yet sit around comtemplating their navel, crying anti-semitism because someone in the wide world somewhere drew a swastika on a wall in the middle of the night while much of the world is actually suffering tremendously with no hope in sight:” link to gilad.co.uk

      • annebeck58
        July 20, 2011, 1:50 am

        “maybe in another 50 years the majority of Americans will have awakened as you did?”

        Oh, I have more faith in this younger generation than that! Surely, most will not be as stupid as was I.
        With the advent of the age of information, especially the net, and so many people (even those my age) figuring it out and posting online, they are getting it.
        Also, many of us who were raised in religiously freaked-out families have, in turn, raised our own kids outside of the church. And, that is a place where many or most Americans are indoctrinated into the Jewish-sadness, along with the Zionist slant. Many of us did a good job by not taking the kids to church!

        Regarding Gilad and Norman; these two have especially been great influences on me in the past few years. The fact that they speak out given who they are and where/how they were raised, has helped to make it okay for me to speak my truth, too.

        Oh, and to MW; thank you for giving me the space to write of my experience. I have told some parts of my story, to different people, but never had written all of it, together, until yesterday. I appreciate being able to do this, and hope it can help some others see it’s alright to search out their truth. Seeking the truth about zionism is something I believe everyone needs to do, and it does not make one an anti-semite, no matter what “they” say.

        It’s nice to be accepted, especially as I know I have been wrong many times in the past, where Israel is concerned. I also know I’ve finally got it right.

      • Citizen
        July 20, 2011, 10:27 am

        annebeck58,

        Perhaps your hope is rational; yes, the internet puts a big dent in traditional cultural eye motes, and yes, many born & bred to traditional
        religion have broken that cycle and reared there own children to look wider, but seems to me the ranks of Christian fundies are growing by the day and there’s no shortage of knee-jerk Jewish chauvinists who are otherwise, very liberal. And neither those fundies or those chauvinists are all rolling around in welfare fraud scooters. Further, I see no sign that any political career-minded people, young or old, are going to buck the AIPAC litmus test. And no sign shows that campaign finance will change exists.

      • annebeck58
        July 20, 2011, 7:42 pm

        Absolutely, Citizen.
        You could be right. I could be right. It’s more likely you are right.
        But, I still have hope, as of today.

        Regarding what I call, “the ApePac”; what they (Israel) have done to our government/country is distressing and until (or unless) the kids of today DO something about them, like vote-in true Indies who don’t believe they need the funds from Israel (if they are any of these Indies left), we’re screwed. The pull the ApePac has over our Congress and our White-house is threatening to our country. That our government is run by another nation kills me. How is that not treason? How can it be that so many in every president’s cabinet, since around the time of Johnson (at least) are dual citizens, with Israel? Shouldn’t any American governmental office holder have allegiance, ONLY, to the USA?
        I can only hold out hope that these kids will not join up with these churches and others who are Zidiots, for whatever reason. If they don’t have it figured out in a few years, we will be a full extension of the bastard-state.., if we are not already that. (-Seems to me we are, as our Congress does whatever her mas’as in Tel Aviv tell her to do, as does “our president”.) I know that my own kids don’t believe the tripe many others fall into accepting. My, “kids”, are in their late-twenties, though, and I think they know enough to not go there.
        Many of the idiots we see, online, who like to fight over that are still children; and I know they are schoolkids as they have been going on about how this is going to be a, “fun summer” in youtube and on other social sites, picking at anyone who supports Palestine. Anyone who brings-up the “fun summer” thing is generally still in school. Maybe they will learn something before they graduate? But, they are not particularly on the side of Zionism, they just enjoy fighting, bullying, and name-calling.
        Of course, when it comes to our ens and those behind them, many believe that the owners of the Diebold voting-machines, or those who do the data-entry, or hackers paid by the ApePac, are screwing with our votes, making them count as they want them to count. If that’s the case (and it may be; I don’t know), I wouldn’t know how to fix that.

        Regarding campaign-finance(??), I am in Texas(!), so you are preaching to the choir.

        I’ve never heard the term, “welfare fraud scooters”, but I thought it was funny!

      • Hostage
        July 21, 2011, 1:11 am

        Regarding Hamas: I have to say I am pretty impressed with them.

        Religious fundamentalists aren’t my cup of tea, but Hamas is a fact of life and they represent a broad sector of Palestinian society. The positions advanced by Khaled Mashal and Ismail Haniyeh are certainly a setback, but they should have been accepted as a basis for negotiations. Israeli governments will never negotiate in good faith on the issue of right of return, 67 borders, or a single state solution so long as the US has their back and allows them complete impunity.

        For years the US has deployed Orwellian disinformation techniques and digressed endlessly about the abstract qualities of Palestinian “statehood” required to end the Israeli occupation that began in 1967. Finally the US is revealing its true colors and refusing to recognize a state of Palestine on so much as a provisional basis. Once again the US is openly threatening to defund the UN if any of its organs or agencies accepts the sovereign equality of the Palestinians. At the same time the US has already extended de jure recognition to a bunch of unelected Libyan rebels and justified that decision on the basis of their “legitimacy”.

        I’ve always thought that the statehood battle in the UN is one that the Palestinians have to fight, even if they loose. If the UN turns down the bid, then nothing will stand in the way of demanding equality in the de facto apartheid state, based upon the reality on the ground. The so-called Quartet partners obviously have no intention of forcing Israel to comply with international law and stop the growth of illegal settlements, much less end the occupation. If the Palestinians are successful, then they can go after Israel’s foreign assets and pursue prosecution of the Israeli government and WZO officials responsible for the illegal settlement enterprise.

      • annie
        July 21, 2011, 1:23 am

        If the Palestinians are successful, then they can go after Israel’s foreign assets and pursue prosecution of the Israeli government and WZO officials responsible for the illegal settlement enterprise.

        there’s more than one way to skin a cat. let’s pray they are successful.

      • Hostage
        July 21, 2011, 2:21 am

        there’s more than one way to skin a cat. let’s pray they are successful.

        The Abbas Op-Ed in the NYT stated that he wanted to use UN recognition to pursue judgments against Israel in the courts. But the Lobby has been working for years to eliminate universal jurisdiction statutes in other countries, foreclose the Palestinian bid in the ICC, while pursuing its own lawfare legislation. All of that has been accompanied by their usual “All your base are belong to us” chauvinism. So, I don’t think Palestinians will pursue the option of a separate state after September.

        I was reading today about the Israelis and Arabs that marched in Jerusalem to support Palestinian independence. The Israeli author was a little surprised at the low Palestinian turn-out. If the UN bid is unsuccessful, I have no doubt there will be several party lists running on single state platforms, promising to dismantle the PA. Once the anti-apartheid movement becomes a matter of official policy, it will rapidly pick-up steam.

        The tactics then would shift to demanding that the UN decline to accept the credentials of the Zionist government, because it doesn’t represent the population of the territory, & etc.

      • Shingo
        July 21, 2011, 2:53 am

        If the UN bid is unsuccessful, I have no doubt there will be several party lists running on single state platforms, promising to dismantle the PA. Once the anti-apartheid movement becomes a matter of official policy, it will rapidly pick-up steam.

        No wonder Witty is so desperate to revive the credibility of the PA.

      • Citizen
        July 21, 2011, 5:01 am

        Hostage says, “At the same time the US has already extended de jure recognition to a bunch of unelected Libyan rebels and justified that decision on the basis of their “legitimacy”.

        And so, then, “The tactics then would shift to demanding that the UN decline to accept the credentials of the Zionist government, because it doesn’t represent the population of the territory, & etc.”

        Loose cannons deserve the same treatment to keep the World’s ship of state afloat?

      • Hostage
        July 21, 2011, 4:54 pm

        Loose cannons deserve the same treatment to keep the World’s ship of state afloat?

        Yes. The UN Charter is nearly silent on the subject, but the General Assembly simply refused to accept the credentials of the representatives of the Union of South Africa. So, they could not vote or participate in the business of the Assembly. The Credentials Committee has already adopted resolutions which say that the credentials of the representatives of Israel do not apply to the occupied territories. When the US tried to deny the PLO permission to establish a mission in New York, the Secretary General took the US to the World Court for failing to submit the matter for arbitration in accordance with the UN Headquarters Agreement.

        This is the second time that the US government has threatened to defund UN organs and agencies if they recognize the State of Palestine in accordance with their rules of procedure. See for example, Richard W. Nelson, “International Law and U.S. Withholding of Payments to International Organizations”, The American Journal of International Law, Vol. 80, No. 4 (Oct., 1986), pp. 973-983 Stable URL: link to jstor.org

        Article 19 of the UN Charter provides that when a Member of the United Nations is two years in arrears in the payment of its financial contributions to the Organization, it shall have no vote in the General Assembly. The General Assembly might go considerably farther than that in dealing with continued US threats and disruptions.

      • annebeck58
        July 21, 2011, 8:59 pm

        Yes, Hostage, I agree with this:

        “I’ve always thought that the statehood battle in the UN is one that the Palestinians have to fight, even if they loose.”

        (And, from JPost, via AP, today); Ramallah, W.B.:
        Jailed Palestinian (Marwan Barghouti) leader asks millions to protest

        — An imprisoned Palestinian uprising leader held by Israel called Wednesday for “millions” of people to take to the streets in support of a Palestinian independence bid this fall — a scenario that Israeli officials warn could spin into a new wave of violence.

        Full article: link to google.com

        **Okay; so how crazy or honest is Bibi being in saying, “a new wave of violence”, will erupt? If the Palestinians, throughout the world, are staging peaceful protests, who will bring forth the violence? Of course, it will be Israel. But, does Netanyahu not comprehend that we know it IS Israel that’s violent, certainly in comparison to the latest, “White” Intifada?
        Does Bibi really think he can keep building apartments and larger settlements on Palestinian soil while participating in, “peace talks”? Does he think the rest of the world does not see that the two acts are diametrically opposed to one another? Or, does he think we just don’t care, and will leave it to Palestine to take care of themselves? If we do that, we are as complicit as Israel in this endless horror show.

    • Chaos4700
      July 18, 2011, 9:18 am

      Abridged Witty: “Would anyone else want to help me blame the Arab world for Israel’s land grab and use that as a pretext for justifying settlement activity, all the while claiming that I actually don’t approve even though I fight tooth and nail to support those settlements?”

      • annebeck58
        July 19, 2011, 2:27 pm

        “Abridged Witty”

        (hahaha)
        I can’t help it~

    • annebeck58
      July 18, 2011, 10:42 am

      Uhm, Richard,
      The “effort” IS occurring, each and every time a Palestinian steps out of his home to protest the Apartheid state of Israel. If you’re wondering if I want this effort to finally come to fruition and for the Israelis (settlers included) to get the heck out of Palestine; well, that response would be: YES.

      One of the biggest problems all of Palestine faces IS the settlers.., yet you are ambiguous on this issue?

    • annebeck58
      July 19, 2011, 4:26 pm

      Okay, Richard, I’ll play.

      1. Do you want the Palestinian effort for recognition of 67 borders to occur?
      Yes, but that is not the problem; the main obstacle WOULD BE the restriction(s) that Israel wants to perpetuate.

      2. Or, do you prefer that it not occur?
      No, and I thought I answered that (see above).

      3. Perhaps that likud remain in power in Israel, continue to annex, then advocate for a one-person one-vote election?
      No, and again; I though I answered that.
      I do not believe in a one-state solution, for anyone. I am not ready (yet) to say that Israel and her people should be gotten rid of, but I also know that there is no way Israel will ever allow Arabs that one-vote.
      Israel has already stated that their state IS a state for Jews, only. What makes you think it would ever allow for one-man, one-vote?
      Honestly?

Leave a Reply