The Norway massacre and the nexus of Islamophobia and right-wing Zionism

Israel/Palestine
on 338 Comments

Details on the culprit behind yesterday’s massacre in Norway, which saw car bombings in Oslo and a mass shooting attack on the island of Utoya that caused the deaths of at least 91 people, have begun to emerge.  While it is still too early for a complete portrait of the killer, Anders Behring Breivik, there are enough details to begin to piece together what’s behind the attack. 

Although initial media reports, spurred on by the tweets of former State Department adviser on violent extremism Will McCants, linked the attacks to Islamist extremists, it was in fact an anti-Muslim zealot who committed the murders.  An examination of Breivik’s views, and his support for far-right European political movements, makes it clear that only by interrogating the nexus of Islamophobia and right-wing Zionism can one understand the political beliefs behind the terrorist attack. 

Breivik is apparently an avid fan of U.S.-based anti-Muslim activists such as Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes, and has repeatedly professed his ardent support for Israel.  Breivik’s political ideology is illuminated by looking at comments he posted to the right-wing site document.no, which author and journalist Doug Sanders put up. 

Here’s a sampling of some of Breivik’s comments:


And then we have the relationship between conservative Muslims and so-called “moderate Muslims”.

There is moderate Nazis, too, that does not support fumigation of rooms and Jews. But they’re still Nazis and will only sit and watch as the conservatives Nazis strike (if it ever happens). If we accept the moderate Nazis as long as they distance themselves from the fumigation of rooms and Jews?

Now it unfortunately already cut himself with Marxists who have already infiltrated-culture, media and educational organizations. These individuals will be tolerated and will even work asprofessors and lecturers at colleges / universities and are thus able to spread their propaganda.

For me it is very hypocritical to treat Muslims, Nazis and Marxists differ. They are all supporters of hate-ideologies…(page 2-3)

What is globalization and modernity to do with mass Muslim immigration?

And you may not have heard and Japan and South Korea? These are successful and modern regimes even if they rejected multiculturalism in the 70’s. Are Japanese and South Koreans goblins?

Can you name ONE country where multiculturalism is successful where Islam is involved? The only historical example is the society without a welfare state with only non-Muslim minorities (U.S.)…(page 7)

We have selected the Vienna School of Thought as the ideological basis. This implies opposition to multiculturalism and Islamization (on cultural grounds). All ideological arguments based on anti-racism. This has proven to be very successful which explains why the modern cultural conservative movement / parties that use the Vienna School of Thought is so successful: the Progress Party,Geert Wilders, document and many others…(page 13)

I consider the future consolidation of the cultural conservative forces on all seven fronts as the most important in Norway and in all Western European countries. It is essential that we work to ensure that all these 7 fronts using the Vienna school of thought, or at least parts of the grunlag for 20-70 year-struggle that lies in front of us.

The book is called, by the way 2083 and is in English, 1100 pages).

To sums up the Vienna school of thought:

-Cultural Conservatism (anti-multiculturalism)

-Against Islamization

-Anti-racist

-Anti-authoritarian (resistance to all authoritarian ideologies of hate)

-Pro-Israel/forsvarer of non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries

- Defender of the cultural aspects of Christianity

- To reveal the Eurabia project and the Frankfurt School (ny-marxisme/kulturmarxisme/multikulturalisme)

- Is not an economic policy and can collect everything from socialists to capitalists…(page 20)

Daniel Pipes: Leftism and Islam. Muslims, the warriors Marxists Have Been praying for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO6RgVo8Hd8&feature=player_embedded

The following summarizes the agenda of many kulturmarxister with Islam, it explains also why those on death and life protecting them. It explains so well why we, the cultural conservatives,are against Islamization and the implementation of these agendas… (page 27)

We must therefore make sure to influence other cultural conservatives to come to our anti-rasistiske/pro-homser/pro-Israel line. When they reach this line, one can take it to the next level…(page 41)

Breivik’s right-wing pro-Israel line, combined with his antipathy to Muslims, is just one example of the European far-right’s ideology, exemplified by groups such as the English Defense League (EDL).  The EDL, a group Breivik praises, along with the anti-Muslim politician Geert Wilders, share with Breivik an admiration for Israel.   

Anti-Muslim activists and right-wing Zionists share a political narrative that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a “clash of civilizations,” one in which Judeo-Christian culture is under attack by Islam.  Israel, in this narrative, is the West’s bulwark against the threat that Islam is posing to Europe and the United States.  The nexus of Islamophobia and right-wing Zionism was clearly on display during last summer’s “Ground Zero mosque” hysteria, which culminated in a rally where Geller and Wilders addressed a crowd that included members of the EDL waving Israeli flags.  

This comment by Breivik is one example of the twisted way in which Islamophobia and a militant pro-Israel ideology fit together:

Cultural conservatives disagree when they believe the conflict is based on Islamic imperialism,that Islam is a political ideology and not a race.

Cultural conservatives believe Israel has a right to protect themselves against the Jihad.

Kulturmarxistene refuses to recognize the fact that Islam’s political doctrine is relevant and essential. They can never admit to or support this because they believe that this is primarily about a race war – that Israel hates Arabs (breed).

As long as you can not agree on the fundamental perceptions of reality are too naive to expect that one to come to any conclusion.Before one at all can begin to discuss this conflict must first agree on the fundamental truths of Islam’s political doctrine.

Most people here have great insight in key Muslim concepts that al-taqiiya (political deceit), naskh (Quranic abrogation) and Jihad. The problem is that kulturmarxister refuses to recognizet hese concepts.They can not recognize these key Muslim concepts. For if they do so erodes the primary argument that Israel is a “racist state” and that this is a race war (Israelis vs. Arabs) and not defense against Jihad (Kafr vs. Ummah)

Breivik’s admiration for the likes of Daniel Pipes is also telling, and should serve as a warning that, while it would be extremely unfair and wrong to link Pipes in any way to the massacre in Norway, Breivik’s views are not so far off from some establishment neoconservative voices in the U.S.  For instance, both Pipes and Breivik share a concern with Muslim demographics in Europe.  In 1990, Pipes wrote in the National Review that “Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene…All immigrants bring exotic customs and attitudes, but Muslim customs are more troublesome than most.” 

Pipes was appointed by the Bush administration to the U.S. Institute of Peace, and sits on the same board than none other than the Obama administration’s point man on the Middle East, Dennis Ross.

Pipes’ and Breivik’s concern about Muslim and Arab demographics also recall the remarks of Harvard Fellow Martin Kramer, who infamously told the Herzliya Conference in Israel last year that the West should “stop providing pro-natal subsidies for Palestinians with refugee status…Israel’s present sanctions on Gaza have a political aim, undermine the Hamas regime, but they also break Gaza’s runaway population growth and there is some evidence that they have.”

Adding to the Israel/Palestine angle here is the fact that the day before the attack on the island of Utoya, a Palestine solidarity event was held there.

Why Breivik, and his accomplices if he had any, would attack young Norwegians remains unclear.  But it probably had something to do with Breivik’s belief that European governments, and the Norwegian government, were run by “Marxists” allied with Islamist extremists who were bent on destroying Europe through “multiculturalism.” 

Of course, support for Israel and its current right-wing policies do not automatically translate into support for extremist right-wing violence.  But Palestinians, and the larger Arab and Muslim world, know far too well the consequences of Islamophobia and far right-wing Zionism.  Now, it seems that Norwegians do too.  While much remains to be learned about the attacks in Norway, it has exposed the dangerous nexus of Islamophobia, neoconservatism and right-wing Zionism, and what could happen when the wrong person subscribes to those toxic beliefs.

Alex Kane, a freelance journalist currently based in Amman, Jordan, blogs on Israel/Palestine at alexbkane.wordpress.com.  Follow him on Twitter @alexbkane.

About Alex Kane

Alex Kane is a freelance journalist and graduate student at New York University's Near East Studies and Journalism programs. Follow him on Twitter @alexbkane.

Other posts by .


Posted In:

338 Responses

  1. dimadok
    July 23, 2011, 10:14 am

    Wow. To connect the dots it takes some time, but here is ready full connection between the murders and Israel. Bravo Alex-once again you’ve smashed the plot of the Zionists to rage havoc in Norway. Even if in Norway still investigating you have made a clear-cut verdict on that issue.
    And moving on-our next items on agenda are BDS, occupation, Zionazis, Settlers and Gaza suffering due to the rocket attacks by the IDF on unarmed civilians.

    • Chaos4700
      July 23, 2011, 10:25 am

      You know what this mass murderer would have been called, if he were Israeli? “A settler.”

      • Chaos4700
        July 23, 2011, 10:26 am

        Seriously, remember how Israelis honored the attack on Yitzhak Rabin? They VOTED FOR THE GUY HIS ASSASSIN WANTED to replace him!

      • Fredblogs
        July 23, 2011, 11:50 pm

        True. Whether he was a settler or not, he would have been called one. If he was a settler, he would be called that because it was true. If he wasn’t a settler he would have been called that because it makes good anti-Israel propaganda.

      • Cliff
        July 24, 2011, 12:20 am

        the term ‘anti-Israel’ implies that a person without a vested interest in the conflict would be swayed to one side by certain advocacy media

        if the person is sincere, not a religious fundamentalist, not immoral – then i think the natural tendency is to support the Palestinians

        anti-Israel is a term used by Zionists and their supporters to describe anything under the sun they don’t like. it’s no different spamming the ‘antisemitic card’

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 12:45 am

        Apparently the painful realization that Israel has become the poster child for neo Nazis and fascists, has turned Fred into a blubbering idiot – either that, or he’s been receiving private word salad tuition from Witty.

      • Fredblogs
        July 24, 2011, 3:55 am

        That’s because you are prejudiced against Israel. Just like a white supremacist would decide that any sincere (etc.) person would support his side.

        Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am sincere, moral, and not a religious fundamentalist. You may or may not have noticed, but I never cite God or the bible in my arguments. I naturally support Israel. I support Israel because it does more to reduce the number of civilian casualties on both sides than any other country would in similar circumstances. I do not support the Palestinians because they try very hard to maximize the number of civilian casualties on both sides.

        Of course, since your particular definition of “immoral” undoubtedly includes anyone who supports Israel as being “immoral”, I’m sure merely by my support for Israel you classify me as “immoral”. If so, that is circular reasoning.

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 6:49 am

        That’s because you are prejudiced against Israel. Just like a white supremacist would decide that any sincere (etc.) person would support his side.

        You’ve truly mastered the art of soiling yourself in public Fred.

        On one hand, you dismiss any critic fo Israle as being prejudiced against Israel (ie. dismiss any opinion that does not agree with yours) and then you go on to describe such behvior as that of a white supremacist.

        Ergo, you just admitted to being one. Well done Fred.

        I support Israel because it does more to reduce the number of civilian casualties on both sides than any other country would in similar circumstances.

        That’s like saying you support Charles Manson, becasue given similar cirsumstances, otehr serial killer woudl have killed a lot more people.

        I do not support the Palestinians because they try very hard to maximize the number of civilian casualties on both sides.

        So if the palestinians tried to kill less civlians, you would support them?

        Seriosuy Fred, we know you’re fundamentalyl stupid, but don’t assume the rest of us are. You didn’t pick a side in this conflcit based on who targets the most civlians, becasue if you had, you wouldn’t be supporting the side that has killed by the far the greates number. And any “moral” person would never take a positon on this conflict based on who has the most poeweful and most accurate weapoans.

        Do you seriously believe that hamas would not be hitting Israel bases if they had F16’s to do it with?

        I’m sure merely by my support for Israel you classify me as “immoral”

        That, as well as deluded, brainwashed, idelologically corrupted and unhumane.

      • RobertB
        July 24, 2011, 7:34 am

        Fredblogs…said,

        “I support Israel because it does more to reduce the number of civilian casualties on both sides than any other country would in similar circumstances. I do not support the Palestinians because they try very hard to maximize the number of civilian casualties on both sides.”

        ~~~~~~~~

        Hey Fred…Your statement(s) are wrong. You are misinformed. You must be watching “FOX NEWS” & the otherAIPAC controlled MSM.

        Click on link below for further facts, details, graphs…etc…

        Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed
        September 29, 2000 – Present

        124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,463 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

        Israelis and Palestinians Killed
        September 29, 2000 – Present

        1,084 Israelis and at least 6,430 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.”

        http://www.ifamericansonlyknew.org

      • dimadok
        July 24, 2011, 8:42 am

        It seems logic is very elusive feature on this site- it seems unnatural for most of the people here that Israel being a sovereign state does everything in his power to reduce the numbers of his citizens ( regardless of their nationality, since a several Arab citizens were killed and injured by the attacks ) killed by their sworn enemies.
        Would the opposite ratio will be ok- and is there any court ruling in Hamas legal system or PA courts that prohibited the use of civil populations or had condemned the killing of the unarmed civilians ?

      • RobertB
        July 24, 2011, 9:24 am

        dimadok = “IDF blogger”,

        Lets see your strong condemnation of the killings of all unarmed civilians in Palestinian/Israeli/ME conflict.

        Do you condemn the massive killings of unarmed Palestinians/Lebanese/Arab civilians committed by your beloved Israel & its IDF?

      • dimadok
        July 24, 2011, 9:50 am

        I regret the loss of lives of ANY unarmed civilian regardless of his gender,age or religion. However we do not wake up as the IDf soldiers and get on with killings, whoever dies during the military and is a bystander is one too much. Having said that the reality of urban combat, within dense populations assumes the loss of civilians.
        Next time ask the “freedom” fighters to go in to the open fields and fight.

      • annie
        July 24, 2011, 10:14 am

        urban combat? what planet are you on?

      • dimadok
        July 24, 2011, 10:24 am

        link to maps.google.com
        Planet Earth, July 24 2011

      • annie
        July 24, 2011, 10:34 am

        gaza? urban combat? you’ve got to be kidding me! hey dim, what do you think of the mass murders choice of websites?

      • Chaos4700
        July 24, 2011, 10:40 am

        Bombing hospitals and schools? Gunning down ambulances? Setting fire to a warehouse full of relief supplies? Why to an Israeli, that’s just “urban combat!”

        And you wonder why you’re treated with such contempt and scorn.

      • RobertB
        July 24, 2011, 10:51 am

        dimadok… And you call this a “Strong Condemnation” on your part!!! Your IDF boot tracks are so transparent.

        Is the killing / brutal murder of Palestinian children by your IDF …urban combat? Your IDF shoot & kill 9 & 10 year old Palestinian girls & boys…almost on a weekly basis. And you call it urban combat!

        Your beloved IDF do NOT spend one hour in prison…NEVER… for killing a Palestinian/Arab regardless of age and/or gender.

      • dimadok
        July 24, 2011, 11:00 am

        It seems you’ve lost the track of the discussion here- I was responding to robertB tread about killing of civilians and calling me an “IDF blogger”, as I was replying to the “massive killings” by IDF.

      • Chaos4700
        July 24, 2011, 11:11 am

        Because you don’t consider three hundred children in a matter of weeks to be a “massive killing?” Tell us, dimadok, how many children does it take? Or is this a question of them being Arab children, and thus not being worth, as an infamous Israeli put it, “a Jewish fingernail.”

      • RobertB
        July 24, 2011, 11:25 am

        “lost the track”…you wish!

        May be your are attempting to sidetrack the discussion regarding your beloved Israel & its IDF child killers.

        Where are your “strong condemnations” regarding the killings/murder of Palestinians/Lebanese/Arabs unarmed civilians by your brutal IDF?

        Is it possible for you to codemn your IDF killing trails of unarmed/inoccent civilians?

      • dimadok
        July 24, 2011, 12:10 pm

        Read this and you may learn something:
        link to globalcrim.blogspot.com

      • Cliff
        July 24, 2011, 1:02 pm

        The fact of the matter is that Israel kills 10 times the number of Palestinian children and 5 times the number of Palestinian civilians in general.

        Hamas does not represent the whole of Palestinian society.

        Israel is not just killing more Palestinians by factors of 5-10, but it is also stealing their land and destroying their lives, livelihoods, etc.

        There isn’t one dimension to Israeli criminality. There are many aspects to it, that result from the occupation. The notion of Zionism itself is the source. To create a Jewish State in a region that was not predominantly Jewish meant you had to subjugate and battle the opposing population.

        Israel is not at war with Hamas or the PLO before them. They are at war with the Palestinian people IN THEIR ENTIRETY.

        You are NOT a moral person, sincere, or rational – Fred.

        You are a Zionist. Your logic stops exactly at the point where you exalt Israel’s morality because they supposedly minimize casualties.

        Why does Israel occupy Palestinian land? Why does Israel continue to colonize land an enemy population lives on?

        Why did Israel ethnically cleanse 800K Palestinians in 1948? Why did Israeli Arabs live under martial law until 1966?

        Why are Israeli Arabs institutionally discriminated against? Why are Israeli Arabs the frequent targets of threats from within the government and media, for further expulsion?

        Israel is a racist, apartheid State. You can call yourself a moral person but that, like everything else must be proven.

        You are a racist and much closer to a White Supremist, than I am. I am not a believer in the notion that God is a real estate agent, that promised the land to the Jews – hence legitimizing the Jewish Law of Return. I do not support colonialism. I do not support racist laws and institutional discrimination.

        I don’t make excuses for civilian deaths, or generalized explanations (human shields) for their cause. You say you support Israel for minimizing civilian deaths? What the hell about Lebanon 2006? Or better yet, all the various wars Israel waged in Lebanon. I mean, the examples are endless.

        There is no accountability by your racist State in the territories. Yesh Din studies CONFIRM this systematic behavior.

      • Cliff
        July 24, 2011, 1:05 pm

        Yea, sure Dim. Except, your ilk typically blame civilian deaths on human shields – and provide NO proof whatsoever to the systematic usage of the tactic as a cause for said deaths (the only relevant context).

        You simply, lazily and cynically blame it on human shielding. It’s as lazy as your antisemitic card.

        You and Fred and other racists, do not have morals. Having a set of morals implies universality. You’re a Zionist and Zionism means a Jewish majority. Maintaining a Jewish majority. Maintaining that majority in spite of the enemy population of NON-Jews. Their hopes, their aspirations, their history, your CRIMES against them, and as a result their very IDENTITY is an anathema to your ideology.

      • Cliff
        July 24, 2011, 1:08 pm

        Stop being lazy and spamming articles. If you knew how to debate, you’d present evidence, and argue your POV with the facts and compelling ideas of others that corroborate your perspective.

        Posting a link, adding a lame one-liner, and implying/saying we should read your new favorite article is spam.

        You’re not furthering the discussion, you’re trolling. Point-scoring rhetoric won’t get you anywhere on this blog. The anti-Zionists are well-formed and used to your stale, hasbara MEMES.

      • eljay
        July 24, 2011, 1:28 pm

        >> Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am sincere, moral, and not a religious fundamentalist.

        Funny how “moral” Zio-supremacists sound an awful lot like “humanist” Zio-supremacists.

      • eljay
        July 24, 2011, 1:31 pm

        >> … it seems unnatural for most of the people here that Israel being a sovereign state does everything in his power to reduce the numbers of his citizens … killed by their sworn enemies.

        “Everything in its power”? Not even close. “Everything in its power” would, at a bare minimum, include:
        – immediately and completely halting the ON-GOING campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder (none of which is defensive in nature, and all of which Israel has the power to end); and
        – offering to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.

        Those are two MASSIVE omissions from “everything in its power”.

      • RobertB
        July 24, 2011, 1:44 pm

        Nah…!!! Your IDF hasbara is not amounting to a hill of beans…keep your finger off that machine gun trigger…!!!

      • dimadok
        July 24, 2011, 2:01 pm

        To negotiate with whom if you may?
        Do you realize the number of agreements and accords signed during last 20 years? Now people here would argue that is all been deceptive tacticts by Israel or tratior behavior of the corrupt PA officials. Israel will never accept the right of return, division of Jerusalem, meaning if I follow the logic here the conflict will become eternal. How you are proposing to deal with that situation- let the demography win? I doubt that since the birth rates are almost equal between both sides, Israel has more economic power, regardless of BDS or other initiatives tried in last decades. We are not going anywhere. IDF is still present and combat units have increased numbers of young men to volunteer to serve. Education, healthcare and science communities are strong and respected. It is not a South Africa case with ratio of 1:9 white people vs black. Please I would like to hear you thoughts.

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 7:15 pm

        urban combat? what planet are you on?

        According to dimadok’s idea of urban combat (aka shooting fish in a barrel) the Warsaw Ghetto uprising was urban combat, as was the blowinng up of busses and cafe’s in Israel.

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 7:16 pm

        Planet Earth, July 24 2011

        I didn’t ralize you lived in Gaza dimadok.

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 7:18 pm

        Next time ask the “freedom” fighters to go in to the open fields and fight.

        Yeah sure, right after you mummy’s boys step out of your APC’s, Merkava tanks, underground bunker and F16/Apache gunship cockpits.

        No one buys the crap that you IDF Dough Boys are shirtless Rambo types.

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 7:20 pm

        It seems logic is very elusive feature on this site

        Don’t confuse logic with Hasbara.

        Israel has no soverighnty beyind it’s 1967 borders. If you insist on occupying someone else’s land and stealnig it, then they are going to resist.

        Would the opposite ratio will be ok- and is there any court ruling in Hamas legal system or PA courts that prohibited the use of civil populations or had condemned the killing of the unarmed civilians ?

        Tell that to Shin Bet and the IDF, both fo whom appealed an Isreli Superme Court ruling banning the use of human shieds.

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 8:15 pm

        Read this and you may learn something:

        That entry cites no evidene, no facts, no statistics and provides a dead link.

        It provids a clear insight into what you consider to be “learning”.

      • annie
        July 24, 2011, 9:56 pm

        don’t forget the drones.

      • annie
        July 24, 2011, 9:58 pm

        Do you realize the number of agreements and accords signed during last 20 years?

        and do you realize how many agreements israel has BROKEN? or did you miss the little leaked video of bibi boasting about the fraud of camp david?

      • Taxi
        July 24, 2011, 10:21 pm

        Heck dimadok , hizbollah CAME OUT TO THE “FIELDS” and you soiled your camouflage pants from fear and ran to your (stolen) home weeping.

        And you guys with big tanks didn’t even dare an ‘incursion’ on Gaza in PERSON, you guys preferred raining White Phosphorous on school children instead of DIRECT CONFRONTATION with Hamas freedom fighters.

        Wake up for Pete’s sakes! NOBODY is scared of you. People are either laughing at you or hating you and your Apartheid rogue (stolen) nation.

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 10:31 pm

        Israel will never accept the right of return, division of Jerusalem, meaning if I follow the logic here the conflict will become eternal.

        Not really. Sadly, Israel won’t last forever. In fact the CIA believe it will cease to be viable by 2020.

        I doubt that since the birth rates are almost equal between both sides, Israel has more economic power, regardless of BDS or other initiatives tried in last decades.

        The indigenous peopel of the land have been there for centuries. Israel is an usustable and failed experiment, who’s existence is entirely dependent on outside help. Once that help dries up (and it will) so will Israel.

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 11:58 pm

        Heck dimadok , hizbollah CAME OUT TO THE “FIELDS” and you soiled your camouflage pants from fear and ran to your (stolen) home weeping.

        That was priceless Taxi. You let him have it with both barrels.

        Speaking of Gaza, how pathetic must this mob be if they believed that fireing sheels of white phosphous and 500lb bombs from thuosands of feet up in the air reesteablished their deterrance capacity.

        That would be equivalent to a street thug being beaten up by a rival, and then mugging an 80 year old woman to prove that he was still a bad ass.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 12:05 am

        I support Israel because it does more to reduce the number of civilian casualties on both sides than any other country would in similar circumstances.

        Yeah, liek dumping 1 million cluster bombs over a civlian area in Southern Lebanon

      • annie
        July 25, 2011, 12:26 am

        than any other country would in similar circumstances.

        lol, there are no other countries in similar circumstances. duh. it’s apartheid!

      • lyn117
        July 25, 2011, 1:00 am

        I support Israel because it does more to reduce the number of civilian casualties on both sides than any other country would in similar circumstances.

        So like a zionist to claim moral superiority because they try to avoid killing innocent people in the course of taking their land, in the course of their efforts to expel them from the land their ancestors had inhabited for 1000s of years, depriving them of their heritage, viable livelihoods, sufficient water, equal rights, democracy and self-determination. Never mind that Israel kills 10 times the number of innocent people while ethnically cleansing them than the people who are being ethnically cleansed, as long as you only “accidently” kill innocent people you are robbing, you’re morally superior.

      • Taxi
        July 25, 2011, 1:23 am

        Ah yes Shingo, them israelis are such bravehearts, admired the world over for their bravery – especially when facing underage children wielding stones:
        link to rense.com

        It’s really courageous of them israelis to give electric shock treatment to their underage prisoners. So audacious and gallant of them to torture children.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 3:17 am

        Ah yes Shingo, them israelis are such bravehearts, admired the world over for their bravery – especially when facing underage children wielding stones:

        That’s probably what dimadok was referring to when he spoke of “hardened and trained” men fighting in “urban combat”.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 3:22 am

        So like a zionist to claim moral superiority because they try to avoid killing innocent people in the course of taking their land

        I’m still waiting for Fred to explain how dropping 1 million cluster bombs in Southern Lebanon (during the last 72 houts prior to a ceasefire) proves that Israel avoids killing innocent people.

        as long as you only “accidently” kill innocent people you are robbing, you’re morally superior.

        Of coures lyn117,

        So long as a man is careful not to harm his vicitm (ir. stab wounds, cuts, bruising), then he should be given credit for beign careful not to harm his victim.

        After all, what’s a rapist to do? Stop raping? Surely not.

      • Fredblogs
        July 25, 2011, 3:00 pm

        Ah yes, the explanation of why the Germans were the good guys in WWII, and the U.S. were the bad guys “because the U.S. killed more German children than the Germans killed U.S. children”. The ratio there is probably more like 10,000 to one rather than 12 to one.

        Your point is relevant, but does not disprove my statement that Israel does more than any other nation would do to prevent civilian casualties.

        I said Israel does their best, not that they are Gods. If the U.S. were fighting under similar circumstances the number of children killed would be in the 10s of thousands, if not the 100s of thousands. Same for any other nation. Civilian deaths, even children civilian deaths are inevitable in any conflict, particularly when the enemy uses child soldiers, hides among civilians, fires from next to schools, and doesn’t wear uniforms when attacking. Collateral damage (missed the enemy soldier, hit a bystander) happens and mistaken identity happens (the 17 year old dressed just like a terrorist, i.e., in civilian clothes doesn’t stop approaching when ordered to).

        As I have asked before, please would someone on the Palestinian side filter this list of victims on both sides so we can determine how many of the under-18s on each side (I don’t think 17 year old terrorists should properly be called “children” and there are a fair number of them on the list of “children killed by Israel”) were killed in non-military circumstances and how many in military circumstances? Then we can compare apples to apples instead of lumping 17 year old terrorists shot while planting bombs in with kids blown up in a Pizza Parlor.

        link to rememberthesechildren.org

        It goes through 11 years (links to other years at the top of the page)

        So filter the list down, and let’s compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 6:26 pm

        Your point is relevant, but does not disprove my statement that Israel does more than any other nation would do to prevent civilian casualties.

        Your point is meaningless and has no basis in reality. it is not supported by evidence or any factual data. In fact, it appears you are so bereft of data to back up thsi claim that you want us to do the work for you by filtering “the list of victims on both sides so we can determine how many of the under-18s”.

        We’ll take that as a frank admission that you are merely repeating Israeli propaganda without any idea as to the veracity of those claims.

        Yo’ve been provided with ample evidence that Israel makes no effort to avoid civlian casualities, but in fact, has a track record of deliberately targetting them. Mordecai Gur(10th Chief of Staff of the IDF) stated plainly to Ze’ev Shiff at Haaretz that the “The Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously. The army has never distinguished civilian from military targets, but has purposely attacked civilian targets.”

        In the last 72 hoours fo the 2006 Lebanon war, Israle dropped 1 million cluster bombs over Southern Lebanon. These were clearly inteneded to target civlians (children in particular), not Hezbollah.

        Civilian deaths, even children civilian deaths are inevitable in any conflict, particularly when the enemy uses child soldiers, hides among civilians, fires from next to schools, and doesn’t wear uniforms when attacking.

        Out and out lies.

        First of all, children civilian deaths are inevitable in any conflict, but as to the vonflicts, Israle has started every war since 1948 (and prior to 1948)
        , with the exceptino fo 1973, and all thsoe wars were wars of choice.

        There is no evidence of Hezbollah hiding among civlians, and as for wearing uniforms, the IDF and Livni have stated that Has DO wear uniforms.

        link to talknic.wordpress.com

        So even if you want to make the mistyaken bystanader argument, what was not a mistake was Isral’ deliberate policy of starting wars.

        As I have asked before, please would someone on the Palestinian side filter this list of victims on both sides so we can determine how many of the under-18s

        Then we can compare apples to apples instead of lumping 17 year old terrorists shot while planting bombs in with kids blown up in a Pizza Parlor.

        But surely, those kids were not targetted. They were simply innocent bystanaders that were unintentionalyl killed. At least, that’s how your logic would apply.

        But have it your way. Let’s assume that some suicide missions were perpetrated by 17 year olds. How many suicide attacks were pereptrated by under 18? No more than a handful. that hardly makes a dent in the thousand plus death toll that Israel has inflicted.

        link to rememberthesechildren.org

        I noticed that this list makes no mention of the names fo the 330 children Israel masscared during Cast Lead. Do yourharba links stop at the year 2000?

        Be honest with yourself Fred. Israel targets civlians, always has and always will. The 10th Chief of Staff of the IDF admitted it, so you are wasting your time trying to deny it.

      • RobertB
        July 26, 2011, 12:24 am

        A partial list of Palestinian Children Killed by Israelis

        This is a partial list of children mostly 13 and under of the approximately 1,500 Palestinian minors killed by Israeli forces from fall 2000 through early 2011. During the same period Palestinians killed about 130 Israeli minors.

        The following information is taken from Remember These Children, which works to document all Israeli and Palestinian children who have been killed, in the belief, sadly not shared by the U.S. media, that all of these children matter. In the list below, “IDF” stands for Israeli Defense Forces, an offensive, occupying force; “Incursion” refers to an invasion of Palestinian land by Israeli military forces. The full list is available at http://www.RememberTheseChildren.org

        @@@@@@@

        “Muhammad Saleh Muhammad al-Arja, 12, of Rafah, Gaza, killed by Israeli sniper fire to his head near the Rafah boder crossing.

        Math Ahmad Muhammad abu-Hadwan, 11, of Hebron, killed by IDF gunfire to his head in Tel Rumeida.

        Abdul-Rahman Khaled Hammouda Khbeish, 4, of Balata refugee camp, killed by IDF gunfire to his head.

        Obeisi infant girl, of Nablus, died at an IDF checkpoint when her mother was prevented from crossing to reach the hospital.

        Muhammad Ismael Hashem Nasr, 10, of Dahyet al-Bareed, near Jerusalem, killed by Israeli settlers.

        Isra Ahmad, 11, of Nablus, died at an IDF checkpoint when she was prevented from reaching a hospital.

        Mahmoud Ismael al-Darwish, 11, of Dura, near Hebron, killed by IDF shelling to his chest.

        Yehya Fathi Muhammad al-Sheikh Eid, 12, of Rafah, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling to his face, neck and abdomen.

        Iman Muhammad al-Haju, 4 months, of Khan Younis, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling while in her mother’s arms.

        Suleiman Sami al-Masri, 12, of Rafah, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire to his back.

        Khalil Ibrahim Muhammad al-Moghrabi, 11, of Rafah, Gaza, killed by IDF tank fire to his head while playing with a friend near the border with Egypt.

        Diya Marwan Hilmi al-Tmeizi, 3 months, of Ithna, near Hebron, killed, with her older brother, by Israeli settler gunfire to her head and back.

        Ashraf Khalil Abdul-Minem, 8, of al-Judeidah, near Jenin, killed, with his brother, in an IDF helicopter missile strike during a targeted assassination.

        Bilal Khalil Abdul-Minem, 10, of al-Judeidah, near Jenin, killed, with his brother, in an IDF helicopter missile strike during a targeted assassination.

        Azhar Said Shalafa, 2, of Rafah, Gaza, died at an IDF checkpoint when her mother was prevented from taking her to the hospital.

        Muhammad Subhi abu-Arrar, 14, of Rafah refugee camp, Gaza, killed by IDF sniper fire to his chest while playing in front of his home.

        Inas Samir abu-Zeid, 5, of Rafah, Gaza, killed, with her brother, by IDF shelling.

        Suleiman Samir abu-Zeid, 7, of Rafah, Gaza, killed, with his sister, by IDF shelling.

        Abdallah Atatrah, 3, of al-Tarm, near Jenin, died at an IDF checkpoint when the car carrying him was prevented from getting to the Yabad medical center after he fell into a swamp.

        Khaled Arafat al-Batash, 2, of Hebron, killed by the IDF and Israeli settlers during a gas attack.

        Riham Nabil Younis Abul-Ward, 10, of Jenin, killed by IDF gunfire to her head while in her classroom.

        Abed-Rabo infant, newborn, of Bethlehem, died at an IDF checkpoint after its mother was denied access to medical care.

        Akram Naim Abdul-Karim al-Astal, 6, of Khan Younis refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with his brother and three cousins, by an IDF missile while on their way to school.

        Anis Idris Muhammad al-Astal, 11, of Khan Younis refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with his brother and three cousins, by an IDF missile while on their way to school.

        Muhammad Rateb abu-Shahla, 12, of Jenin, killed by IDF shelling to his head.

        Shadi Ahmad Abdul-Moti Arafeh, 13, of Hebron, killed in an IDF helicopter missile strike during a targeted assassination.

        Burhan Muhammad Ibrahim al-Himuni, 3, of Hebron, killed in an IDF helicopter missile strike during a targeted assassination.

        Muhammad Zakin, 8 hours, of Yamoun, near Jenin, died at an IDF checkpoint after his mother was denied access to medical care.”

        *********
        Hey Fred…Your zionist deceptive trails are transparent…

        One infant/child is too many to be killed/murdered by your beloved IDF child killers!

        Click on link & scroll down for the rest of the partial list of Palestinian children killed by Israelis:

        link to ifamericansknew.org

      • Taxi
        July 26, 2011, 1:30 am

        RobertB,

        Yours is one of the most difficult posts I’ve ever read. I would even call it loathsome and depressing.

        But so very necessary to publish this list of little people with timeless names.

        R.I.P. Palestinian children murdered by the state of israel.

      • RobertB
        July 27, 2011, 2:18 am

        Taxi,

        Your genuine humanity, care & efforts for these helpless victims of Israel’s brutal occupation & its IDF killers needs to continue…someone /we have to help them achieve their deserved dignity & justice.

        Keep up your great work & efforts!

      • Cliff
        December 30, 2012, 9:55 pm

        LOL

        I was referencing this old thread recently and came across this gem by Dimwit the IDF keyboard soldier for Israel.

        [...]
        Next time ask the “freedom” fighters to go in to the open fields and fight.

        Tell the IDF to get out of Palestine and out of their aerial bombing vessels and in some open field.

      • Egbert
        July 24, 2011, 6:24 pm

        And the attack itself would be known as a ‘price tag’ attack.

    • Cliff
      July 23, 2011, 10:38 am

      The connection is “the nexus of Islamophobia and right-wing Zionism.”

      It’s even in the title of the article.

      Your conclusion is predictably hysterical.

      If you don’t want to discuss the content of the article that’s fine. Just don’t pollute the thread with your straw-man bullshit.

    • eljay
      July 23, 2011, 10:40 am

      >> Bravo Alex-once again you’ve smashed the plot of the Zionists to rage havoc in Norway. Even if in Norway still investigating you have made a clear-cut verdict on that issue.

      I agree that this leap to the conclusion that “Zionists dunnit” is premature and unnecessary.

      >> And moving on-our next items on agenda are BDS, occupation, Zionazis, Settlers and Gaza suffering due to the rocket attacks by the IDF on unarmed civilians.

      You guys just don’t seem to know when to leave well enough alone. You make (IMO) a solid argument, and then you squander any points you may have made by following it up with shockingly-lame, pro-Israel / pro-Zionist apologetics.

      • Charon
        July 23, 2011, 2:14 pm

        It’s premature but not unnecessary. The only person in custody is in fact a Zionist. So at least one Zionist is responsible. If you watch the video of the destroyed area in Oslo, there is no way it was a single bomb. There is a youtube video showing another explosion. It keeps getting deleted for whatever reason. There were bombs on the island and the death toll is unusually high for a ‘killing spree’. If this is one man, it’s just hard to believe. It would be the largest killing spree ever. The eye witness accounts indicate multiple gunmen. It’s just the MSM who want to pin it all on one guy. The facebook and twitter are only a couple days old, in English, and probably fake. A youtube video from a Polish user one day before the bombing eluded to it.

        Just one day prior, the youth camp was talking about Israel with the Norway foreign minister. Two days prior and the police were conducting a bomb drill (similar to drills on 9/11 and 7/7).

        There are no coincidences. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, then it’s probably Mossad

      • seafoid
        July 23, 2011, 5:55 pm

        It looks far too organised to have been the work of one person.
        Especially the 2 sites.

      • Fredblogs
        July 24, 2011, 12:07 am

        Moderate blanks support cause X. Terrorist supports cause X. Therefore moderate blanks are responsible for terrorist.

        Now, I bet a lot of you will agree with that statement if blanks=Zionists and cause X=Israel’s right to self defense. I bet a lot of you will disagree with that statement if blanks=Muslims and cause X=an independent Palestinian state.

        The fun part is, how many of you will agree with one and disagree with the other without even seeing the contradiction, even after it has just been pointed out to you.

      • annie
        July 24, 2011, 1:12 am

        scroll all the way up fred. nothing about moderates. it’s right-wing all the way.

      • straightline
        July 24, 2011, 3:58 am

        Israel’s right to self-defense? You are joking of course. Israel is the 5th biggest nuclear power in the world and by any measure in the top 10 of militaries in the world. It is being opposed by popular groups fighting for their very existence with very little in the way of real military systems. Israel is, in the meantime, engaged in ethnic cleansing on a very significant scale. The tragic part is seeing your complete blindness to the facts.

      • Fredblogs
        July 24, 2011, 4:06 am

        The original article was tarring all Zionists with the same brush (despite a tiny “not to tar all Zionists with the same brush” disclaimer at the end). But the bigger problem is that the people posting comments here are blaming any action by any Israeli supporter on Israel (see Charon’s comment about the Mosad). Which is no more fair than blaming any action by any Muslim on Muslims in general.

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 8:13 am

        Hey Fred,

        Has the Israeli government condemend the attacks? And if not, should we take such silence as approval of the attacks?

      • eljay
        July 24, 2011, 1:35 pm

        >> But the bigger problem is that the people posting comments here are blaming any action by any Israeli supporter on Israel …

        1. Not all “the people posting comments” are doing what you allege they are doing.
        2. The Zio-supremacist rebuttal – that the mis-attribution of guilt in this case equals a mis-attribution of guilt in ALL cases – is both illogical and stupid. But it’s very typical for apologists of Israel and its crimes.

      • annie
        July 24, 2011, 1:48 pm

        The original article was tarring all Zionists with the same brush

        copy /paste it fred. go up to the original article and produce some evidence of this. i’ve already addressed this bogus allegation once and all you do it repeat it and then double down with another bogus broad brush allegation about “the people posting comments here” you can’t support.

        i’m reporting you, you need to be reeled in. quit spamming.

    • annie
      July 23, 2011, 11:30 am

      And moving on-our next items on agenda are BDS, occupation

      ok, that works for me. check out this photo from the camp dated 21. juli 2011 . the same kids are carrying a big boycott israel banner in front of the visiting

      here is the google translation of the norwegian text:

      21. July 2011, at. 5:42 p.m. | 46 comments and 111 reactions | By: Eivind Funds
      Share with others:
      Facebook Twitter Email Share

      The Foreign Minister was met with claims that Norway must recognize a Palestinian state when he visited the Labour Youth League summer camp Thursday.

      AUF WANT BOYCOTT: Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Store was met by demands that Norway must recognize a Palestinian state when he visited the Labour Youth League summer camp at Utøya Thursday. Here the Minister ushered around in the camp of the AUF leader Eskil Pedersen. (Reuters)

      During the second day of Labour Youth League summer camp at Utøya got the Labour Party’s young hopefuls visit by Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Store.

      Together with the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation correspondent Sidsel Wold and Norwegian People’s Aid Kirsten Belck-Olsen, discussed the Foreign Minister of the deadlock between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

      As foreign minister arrived Utøya he was met with a demand from the AUF that Norway must recognize a Palestinian state.

      – The Palestinians must have their own state, the occupation must end, the wall must be demolished and it must happen now, said the Foreign Minister to cheers from the audience.

      that was one day before the bombing. same location, the camp, Utoya. since rueters was there just the day before with the foreign minister it seems someone might have mentioned that after the camp was attacked. seems odd to me they didn’t.

      • annie
        July 23, 2011, 11:48 am

        and here is the translation from the rest of that link.

        .

        – Norway is prepared to recognize

        Earlier this week, when Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas visited Norway, the Minister said to TV 2 news channel that Norway stands ready to recognize a Palestinian state. This he repeated during the debate on Utøya.

        MIDDLE EAST DEBATE: Foreign Minister participated in a debate on Utøya with NRK Sidsel Wold and Norwegian People’s Aid Kirsten Belck-Olsen. (Reuters)

        – We are ready to recognize a Palestinian state. I await the actual resolution text Palestinians will promote the UN General Assembly in September, said the Minister.

        In autumn it is expected that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas will bring the matter to the UN. Where will he ask for UN membership and recognition of a Palestinian state within the borders before the 1967 war, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

        Read also: – Norway is ready to recognize a Palestinian state

        AUF would boycott

        Wednesday said AUF leader Eskil Pedersen that the AUF want a unilateral economic embargo of Israel from the Norwegian side.

        – Labour Youth will have a more activist Middle East policy and we have to recognize Palestine. NOK NOK’s, now we have to get the peace process into a new track, said Pedersen.

        The foreign minister admitted that the situation is untenable, but believes that the boycott is the wrong tool.

        – Boycott will be to move from dialogue to monologue. It is difficult to open the door the day we will talk with Israel, said the Minister.

        Read also: Stoltenberg proposes Norwegian tax level in crisis countries
        Categorized under: news | Tags: Labor, Government

      • James
        July 23, 2011, 11:59 am

        thanks annie… that “dimadok” freak is unable to read or understand anything outside the confines of rabid zionism.. as taxi notes below –
        ANDRE BEHRING BREIVIK HIMSELF IS connecting the dots between israel, fascism and mass-murdering lunacy..

        my heartfelt empathy to those innocent people who have suffered in all of this..

      • MRW
        July 23, 2011, 5:09 pm

        Brilliant find, annie. I published it at Greenwald’s site, and h/t’d you:
        link to letters.salon.com

      • MRW
        July 23, 2011, 5:27 pm

        Annie, you need to get Phil and Adam to frontpage this find of yours. Right now. The copy of the translation I posted on Greenwald’s site has the proper boldface, which will make it easier for them to wordpress it quickly.

      • Bumblebye
        July 23, 2011, 7:26 pm

        Breivik in ’09, disgusted at the liberality of his own church
        “Priests in jeans who march for Palestine”
        link to guardian.co.uk

        Apparently Breivik is cooperating with police. The fertiliser purchase was in May. What if he does tell them the September vote was on his mind? Will they be pressured NOT to reveal that to the world? It would cause trouble for the various Zio-hate groups and groupies he conversed with.

      • annie
        July 23, 2011, 8:54 pm

        thank you mrw. i just saw your comment here and read your link. no need to give me credit, as i linked elsewhere on the thread i read it last night @ moon of alabama who is based out of germany. this news is out there already. because it was the PM and foreign minister at the camp it isn’t exactly a secret.

        i can forward this info to phil and adam but i’m afraid by the time a post goes up it will be second hand news. but i will email him and adam.

    • Taxi
      July 23, 2011, 11:36 am

      dimdok,
      Alex isn’t connecting the dots between israel, fascism and mass-murdering lunacy, ANDRE BEHRING BREIVIK HIMSELF IS! In his own words he’s proudly and pungently fessing up the connection! Case effing closed!

      Amazing how very stupid you zionist lot can be! And so very rude and insensitive of you not to even mention the victims of this heinous zio-islamophobic massacre! You really are a disgusting example of a human being.

      That aside, R.I.P. goes out to the young and tragic victims, sincere commiserations to their families and friends. Forever remembered in love and loss.

      • dimadok
        July 24, 2011, 9:44 am

        Too many words, Taxi. And using word as “stupid” does not promotes the dialogue isn’t it?
        link to mfa.gov.il

      • Chaos4700
        July 24, 2011, 10:42 am

        So? Israel condemns a terror attack that wasn’t actually perpetrated by Israelis. Call me when you guys start feeling bad about killing children by the morgueful in the Middle East.

      • dimadok
        July 24, 2011, 11:03 am

        Response to :” And so very rude and insensitive of you not to even mention the victims of this heinous zio-islamophobic massacre” by Taxi

      • Taxi
        July 24, 2011, 10:10 pm

        Didn’t I already tell you to “Buzz off”?!

        Yeah talking to you mister ex-idf. And yeah you are stupid to think that I would be interested in a “dialogue”with racist bums here on mondo or anywhere else for that matter.

        What I’m really interested in is putting criminal ex-idf soldiers on the stand in the Hague. No dialogue with terrorists, murderers or occupiers.

    • Mooser
      July 23, 2011, 12:03 pm

      dimadok, it is considered the usual process to read and understand the post before commenting. Just saying, of course.

    • Shingo
      July 23, 2011, 5:50 pm

      To connect the dots it takes some time, but here is ready full connection between the murders and Israel

      It took less time to link the 911 attacks ro Bin Laden, but I suspect that didn’t bother you at the time.

    • richb
      July 23, 2011, 7:54 pm

      I doubt that it is a Zionist plot nor do I believe Zionism per se was in the forefront of the alleged killer’s mind. Having read portions of Breivik’s manifesto, however, has convinced me that Hasbara revisionist history definitely has distorted his thinking. He’s bought hook, line, and sinker the “clash of civilizations” narrative and is willing to spill blood for another (literal) crusade.

      I’ve been to Bethlehem and talked to the Christians there. They tell me they are leaving because of the occupation and not because of their Muslim neighbors. But here’s the Hasbara distorted thinking:

      What has been the situation for Christians in Israel/Palestine?

      In the last census conducted by the British mandatory authorities in 1947, there were 28,000 Christians in Jerusalem. The census conducted by Israel in 1967 (after the Six Day War) showed just 11,000 Christians remaining in the city. This means that some 17,000 Christians (or 61%) left during the days of King Hussein’s rule over Jerusalem. Their place was filled by Muslim Arabs from Hebron.

      During the British mandate period, Bethlehem had a Christian majority of 80%. Today, under Palestinian rule, it has a Muslim majority of 80%.

      Few Christians remain in the Palestinian-controlled parts of the West Bank. Those who can – emigrate, and there will soon be virtually no Christians in the Palestinian Authority controlled areas. The Palestinian Authority is trying to conceal the fact of massive Christian emigration from areas under its control.

      from PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY PERSECUTION OF CHRISTIANS (Prime Minister’s Office ) November, 1997

      As a result of unceasing persecution, the Christians are forced to behave like any oppressed minority which aims to survive. Christians in PA-controlled areas have taken to praying in secret. The wisdom of survival compels them to assess the “balance of fear”, according to which they have nothing to fear from Israel but face an existential threat from the Palestinian Authority and their Muslim neighbours.

      They act accordingly: they seek to “find favour” through unending praise and adulation for the Muslim ruler together with public denunciations of the “Zionist entity.”

      What is this report from the Prime Minister’s office? As we will see classic Hasbara. Sabeel looked into this allegation and several reports on the alleged Christian persecution by Muslims was in their Summer 1998 magazine.

      link to sabeel.org

      “The recent reports of persecution of Palestine’s Christian population gained currency after the ‘leaking’ of an Israeli Prime Minister’s office report about the persecution of Christians in areas under the control of the Palestinian Authority.”

      “The Prime Minister’s report, and later articles concerning the report, also [blame] ongoing emigration of the Christian population of the West Bank and Jerusalem and the dramatic decline in their population on their poor relations with their Moslem neighbors, now represented by the Palestinian Authority. The Prime Minister’s report claims that during the British Mandate period, Bethlehem had a Christian majority of 80% while today, under Palestinian rule, it has a Moslem majority of 80%. The report links this massive emigration to the untenable living conditions under the Palestinian Authority.

      “This superficial example fails to examine the catastrophic [effects] of thirty years of Israeli occupation over the Palestinian Territories. … Bernard Sabella, Professor of Sociology at Bethlehem University and demographic expert, gives a very different interpretation of the causes of this emigration. The massive outmigration resulted from the exodus of 726,000 Palestinian refugees during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Fifty to sixty thousand Palestinian Christians, comprising 35% of all Christians in pre-1948 Mandatory Palestine, were among the refugees. … The catastrophic condition of the Palestinian economy, particularly after redeployment and as a result of stifled trade and ongoing embargoes, has encouraged ongoing emigration among the generally better-educated Christian minority.”
      The damage that can be done by paying heed to false and exaggerated reports is highlighted by local Christian leaders:

      “Local evangelical Christian pastors sent a letter to Jerry Falwell urging him to recognize the injustices done to the Palestinian people as a whole (Moslems as well as Christians) and that ‘by lobbying against any further Israeli troop withdrawals from the West Bank, you are endorsing the theft of Palestinian lands and adopting the dangerous position of Israeli extremists.’ … The heads of the Christian communities in Palestine, several mayors and the heads of prominent institutions in the Bethlehem, Beit Jala and Beit Sahour area denounced the Israeli propaganda and declared that the allegations were false and intended ‘only to encourage ethnic strife’. … The Latin-rite Catholic Patriarchate reacted similarly. …” [Emphasis mine]

      So where did this “report” quoted by Breivik come from?

      Given that the evidence is against any systematic policy of persecution of Christians by the PNA, who are the parties in Israel-Palestine active in spreading accounts of discrimination? Apart from the prime minister’s office, there is the International
      Christian Embassy of Jerusalem, a Christian Zionist organization which lends strong support to the state of Israel. A number of evangelical Christians (notably David Ortiz – pastor of some of the converts who are in the LAW report) also join in.

      It’s Zionist propaganda straight from the Israeli Prime Minister’s office and his Christian Zionist allies in the United States that gave Breivik the false impression that Muslims are persecuting Christians. (As a Christian I care if the allegations are true but also as a Christian I am bound by the command to not bear false witness and to deny false accusations.) He took that false knowledge and went on his killing spree. Words have consequences.

    • MarkF
      July 24, 2011, 3:29 pm

      Damage patrol in high gear.

  2. Chaos4700
    July 23, 2011, 10:20 am

    Is it really a surprise that the pro-Israel crowd, especially those at the levers of power in the US government and media, JUMPED on the chance to blame Muslims?

    It’s even a less of a surprise now that we learned that this violence and terrorism actually came from the pro-Israel crowd.

    It ain’t Muslims we have to worry about, kids.

  3. Les
    July 23, 2011, 10:25 am

    In its original story, the New York Times, “All the News That’s Fit to Print,” included an unsubstantiated report that Muslim terrorists were the likely suspects behind the bombing according to a Mac somebody at a research organization. The link to that story now goes to a revised version that omits any reference to any Muslim suspect and, pointedly, does not include that in its “correction” to the paper’s first story. That change was apparently too trivial to mention compared to their error that the island was 19, and not 25 miles from Oslo. This is the same newspaper that has not yet found fit to print that three days earlier Norway had pronounced the Palestinian effort to achieve statehood through the UN “legitimate.” The Times is unwilling to relinquish its starring role in the Israel Lobby in order to function as an actual newspaper.

    link to nytimes.com

    • Les
      July 23, 2011, 10:40 am

      Here’s a more specific reference to that original story:
      “A terror group, Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack, according to Will McCants, a terrorism analyst at C.N.A., a research institute that studies terrorism. The message said the attack was a response to Norwegian forces’ presence in Afghanistan and to unspecified insults to the Prophet Muhammad.” [Thanks to link to thisaintnews.com ]

      In its “correction” the Times didn’t mention that it had deleted the above from its original report.

      • richb
        July 23, 2011, 4:14 pm

        Even from the get go the whole Muslim terrorist angle smelled. How could a Muslim pretend to be a policeman in lily white Norway? This story also made no sense because it was Denmark and not Norway that had the cartoons that insulted the Prophet Muhammed. Furthermore, by the time most of us were following the story the suspect was in custody. All you had to do was wait for the identity to get published and then do your research and see what kind of online trail the suspect left.

        As for the speed Alex assembled things, welcome to the 21st Century with social media and crowd sourcing and storify. I caught the link (which I published here last night) to the camp holding solidarity with the Palestinians from a Tweet from a Norwegian. The mainstream media such as the New York Times and the cable news networks may be captured to project a desired narrative but they aren’t relevant anymore. There might as well not be even a camera on the talking heads as they have zero influence.

      • Taxi
        July 23, 2011, 5:36 pm

        I too have been noticing a recent trend: soon as a big international story hits, the public takes the time to explore ‘alternative’ news sources on the internet – not relying solely on the national main stream media as the ONLY source of information. Around the water cooler at offices, discussions of what the ‘net’ is saying, not just what CNN and Fox are saying, is NOW THE NORM.

        CNN and all the other traditional media corpses (eaten alive from the inside by lies, lies and some more lies) have indeed become ‘insufficient’ for an information-hungry global public, therefore less significant in the big picture. If people stopped watching TV or listening to commercial corpozio radio – dumped the goddam bastard boxes like a drug habit – then CNN, Fox News, NPR etc would go the way of the 8-track overnight.

        Heck if I were the CEO of these media corporations (corpses), I would be extremely worried that people’s appetite for information is growing beyond what they can ever deliver in the near future – their info-supplies limited of course by the media bosses’ own politically nefarious agendas.

        I reckon more and more people are realizing the current line-up in the axis of evil to be: politicians, corporations and the main stream media.

        Heh!

      • MRW
        July 23, 2011, 7:18 pm

        Ah, it was you who caught the camp link. Brilliant, and thank you. It is the nub of this entire thing.

        I think (blue-skying it here) that the original op was supposed to be the Parliament buildings. Had it remained only this, the Muslims-did-it story would have stuck. And, yes, I think this guy was groomed to do this, stoked, pumped by others with the righteousness of his ideas and that his manifesto that would free Europe, etc.

        In thinking about this, though, I think his slaughter on Utoya was an afterthought–he went off the reservation–primed by the Boycott Israel events televised the day before, Assad in Oslo this week asking for support at the UN, and the adrenaline coursing from seeing Oslo bombed. He knew the youth on the island were fish in a barrel.

        The consequences of all this are going to be REALLY interesting to watch.

      • annie
        July 23, 2011, 7:36 pm

        has anyone posted the killer’s video manifesto yet? here it is or something.

        also here’s a good post by ali @ EI

        it appears he had been planning this for years.

      • annie
        July 23, 2011, 7:46 pm

        i first read about it on moon of alabama last night (b is in germany) . he read it via newshoggers.

        max ,/A> has a really good post up too.

        oh, the hashtag is #N2083

      • Fredblogs
        July 24, 2011, 12:17 am

        You know, my first thought when I read about the attacks was “they shouldn’t be assuming it was Muslims, this could be like Oklahoma City”. There are all kinds of home grown loonies around. Heck, even if someone attacks a Jewish target, it could be white supremacists rather than Muslims. It’s extremely irresponsible to speculate in advance of the facts.

      • Chaos4700
        July 24, 2011, 10:45 am

        …unless you need an excuse to kill Palestinians during a ceasefire and the date is November of 2008. Blame Hamas!

        Zionists are such god-awful hypocrites. You expected us to assume every hospital, school and mosque you guys attacked in Gaza and Lebanon was a warehouse for weapons.

        It’s nice of you to feign rationality when it’s convenient for you, though.

      • seafoid
        July 23, 2011, 5:15 pm

        A previously unknown group known as the ansar al jihad al islami. Who made up the name? If you had to make up the name of a Jewish terrorist group , would Shalom Bagel of Bar Mitzvah cut the mustard? Does that sound credible and suitably Jewish ?

      • MRW
        July 23, 2011, 7:21 pm

        I noticed that too, seafoid. Can any of the Arabic speakers here tell us what it means? Like, the ansar part?

        Then, when it showed up in a website called Jihadica, the similarity to Judaica was waaay too obvious.

      • annie
        July 23, 2011, 7:52 pm

        that was probably thought up by SITE. reuters referenced SITE twice in their initial story who claimed they heard the the group take responsibility over the internet (due to their super duper terrorist monitoring capabilities no doubt)

      • Taxi
        July 23, 2011, 7:54 pm

        Translation:
        ansar: victor/victory
        I’m sure you know ‘jihad’ and islami.

      • annie
        July 23, 2011, 7:55 pm

        jihad al islami is about as simple as it comes. about as simple as ‘al baghdadi’ for the terrorist in iraq. fabricated names are names that do not have to be translated (islam, baghdad) with an i on the end. al baghdadi is the kingpin w/9 lives who they finally admitted didn’t exist if anyone recalls.

      • mmm245
        July 23, 2011, 10:44 pm

        Ansar can also mean “supporters”

        “Supporters of the Islamic Jihad”

      • MLE
        July 23, 2011, 11:03 pm

        Mostly because these people probably take one semester of Arabic and usually in the first semester you learn the nisba (adding the i or iyah to a noun).

        There were a ton of future Zionist leaders in my Arabic classes, especially the beginning levels.

    • Ellen
      July 23, 2011, 6:07 pm

      Do not want to make any leaps with connecting dots at this time, but the reporting in yesterdays Wall Street Journal Murdoc rag was pumping this evil tragedy with Moooooslim fear mongering for all it could.

      “Norway is not, in fact, a neutral country. Though it isn’t a member of the European Union, it is a founding member of NATO. Al Qaeda’s Ayman al-Zawahiri has repeatedly singled out Norway in his videotaped messages for “[participating] in the war against the Muslims…”

      “Perhaps all this is at work. Or perhaps not: At our first deadline reports indicated that the attacks were the work of a jihadist group. Later in the evening evidence emerged that a suspect in the shooting attack on a youth camp was an ethnic Norwegian …”

      link to online.wsj.com

      What is going on here? Qualifiers for the careful reader, but disgusting Islamophobic fear mongering . And what is an ethnic anything?

      Why the people boxes? There are insane people and there is evil.

      • seafoid
        July 23, 2011, 6:39 pm

        All the Murdoch papers knew it was Al Qa’ida.

        link to i.imgur.com
        Rupert is more dangerous to the readership s than Bin Laden ever was.
        Bin Laden never shaped their mental world.

      • Les
        July 23, 2011, 6:54 pm

        “Moooooslim ” is a steal. Which I shall use. Thanks.

  4. Stellaa
    July 23, 2011, 10:37 am

    I am truly aghast at the devious act of this man. He systematically exterminated a large number of young people who would make up the future of the labor/left party of Norway. Yet, I don’t see anyone making that connection in the media anywhere.

    This was a truly horrific political act. It was not random shooting. There was intent. I also heard that he maximum he could get is 21 years. At his age, if this is true, he would be back to pursue the extermination of the left, humanists and multiculturalism. He did not kill himself like other such shooters do. He is on a mission and I am sure there are others like him.

    It always amazes me when Americans think that Europeans have reached a higher evolutionary scale. This stuff is global.

    • annie
      July 23, 2011, 11:22 am

      He systematically exterminated a large number of young people who would make up the future of the labor/left party of Norway. Yet, I don’t see anyone making that connection in the media anywhere.

      here, from norway:

      Breivik, arrested by police and charged with the shootings, was described as a 32-year-old member of the Free Masons and a right-wing extremist who hates Muslims. It remained unclear what he thought he could accomplish by gunning down Norwegian teenagers at the Labour Party’s summer camp, but some speculated the shootings were politically motivated. Norwegian Broadcasting (NRK) reported that the gunman reportedly used both a rifle, a hand weapon and an automatic weapon. Police also found explosives on the island that hadn’t been detonated.

      Breivik had been observed in downtown Oslo just before a powerful bomb exploded in the heart of the government complex, killing at least seven others, injuring several more and causing widespread damage to government ministries and surrounding property. Police quickly linked the two incidents.

      Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg, who has spent every summer on Utøya since the early 1970s, was informed of the skyrocketing death toll, up from 10 a few hours earlier, and said he was deeply saddened and shaken. The AUF summer camp attracts some of the brightest and most ambitious members of the Labour Party’s next generation, so the massacre means a huge loss to the party’s future. Crisis teams including psychologists and the Red Cross were set up to help survivors and the families of the dead.

      • Chaos4700
        July 23, 2011, 11:26 am

        I hope this isn’t a Bellwether but I suspect it might be. There’s a significant chance that we’re going to see an accelerated level of terror against the left in the United States, too. And it wasn’t exactly low prior to this.

    • Chaos4700
      July 23, 2011, 11:24 am

      It was terrorism. But of course, because the person responsible isn’t Muslim (or better yet, Arab) the news media won’t use that word when it applies — it’s off the agenda.

      • Fredblogs
        July 24, 2011, 4:32 am

        You are kidding right? The news media almost never uses the terms “terrorism” or “terrorist. Some of them didn’t even use it when talking about the 9/11 attacks.

        link to cbc.ca

        “Militant Islamic group” is the term the article uses for al-qaeda, in an article written in October 2001. The term “terrorist” appears only in quotes of government officials.

      • straightline
        July 24, 2011, 6:56 am

        I typed the word “terrorism” into the NYT website – there were over 10,000 hits for the past 30 days.

      • Chaos4700
        July 24, 2011, 10:49 am

        You know, bullshit normally sticks better when there’s an actual surface you’re throwing it at. The news media almost never uses the word “terrorism?” Oh, please.

        Seriously, you’re like the worst hasbara guy I’ve ever had to interact with.

      • dimadok
        July 24, 2011, 7:12 pm

        I thought I was the worst.

      • Taxi
        July 24, 2011, 10:30 pm

        You’re the most criminal dimadok- that’s my vote.

        Show me an idf-er with no blood on his hands and I will show you my family jewels.

      • Fredblogs
        July 25, 2011, 11:54 pm

        I said they usually didn’t say “terrorist” or “terrorism”, not that they don’t quote people who do. I’m sure the phrase “the war on terrorism” comes up a lot. Also quoting government officials saying “terrorism” or “terrorist”. Even “described by the U.S. government as a terrorist organization”.

        What they don’t do is use the word “terrorist” in their own right when describing any group or individual or terrorism when describing an actual specific attack. Not often anyway.

      • Fredblogs
        July 25, 2011, 11:59 pm

        Oh, please, yourself. Faux News is a right wing propaganda channel. I don’t count them as “the media”.

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 6:54 am

        Yuoare right Chaos,

        Need we be reminded that it was Danny Gillerman, liar extrarodinare, who said that whiel not all Muslims were terrorits, all terrorits were Muslims?

        And last year, when a white American flew his plane into a building housing the Federal Tax Department, the MSN had a debate about whether they could call it terrorism because the man was not Muslim.

  5. VR
    July 23, 2011, 11:22 am

    I also find these comments intriguing –

    “Now it unfortunately already cut himself with Marxists who have already infiltrated-culture, media and educational organizations…For me it is very hypocritical to treat Muslims, Nazis and Marxists differ…Daniel Pipes: Leftism and Islam. Muslims, the warriors Marxists Have Been praying for…kulturmarxister…Kulturmarxistene…”

    We should think about this when similar comments and accusations are made. Just to open up another avenue of consideration.

  6. PissedOffAmerican
    July 23, 2011, 11:44 am

    I think you all are missing a very real possibility here. This guy, obviously, is a wackjob. He is in the same etherworldly kind of fanatical realm as Oswald, the Shoe Bomber, McViegh, Manson, etc. These are the kinds of twisted minds that can be cultured, nurtured, manipulated, and used to perform acts that enhance or advance political objectives or ideologies.

    There were some MSM reports that the early accusations and assertions of a “muslim” group claiming credit for these attacks came from the CIA. Many of those assertions have now been quietly redacted from the original online articles.

    Think. Is it possible that this is a false flag black-op gone wrong? Was this guy meant to simply disappear, and something went wrong, leading to his capture? Why target youths, if not for the powerful impact it has on eliciting a profitably fearful reaction from the public at large?

    The CIA seems to have had a pre-prepared “story line” for this event, which was promptly distributed to the MSM. Food for thought.

    WHAT IF THEY HADN’T OF CAUGHT THIS GUY??? WHAT MUSLIM GROUP WOULD NOW BE PARADED IN FRONT OF US AS THE PERPETRATOR OF THIS HORRENDOUS ACT, AND WHAT COUNTRY OF ORIGIN WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SCAPEGOAT?

    • annie
      July 23, 2011, 12:06 pm

      pre-prepared “story line”? the pre-prepared “story line” has been institutionalized. check out Manufacturing the Muslim Menace. (pdf)

    • Les
      July 23, 2011, 12:38 pm

      Following the Oklahoma bombing our media was nothing but anti-Muslim which President Clinton used to get anti-immigrant legislation passed with the assumption by our politicians that this was a way go get back at Muslims. That legislation was not undone upon the discovery that it was one of our own white Christian terrorists at work.

    • Charon
      July 23, 2011, 2:23 pm

      Iran or Syria. Norway is NATO which means NATO countries like the USA would retaliate.

      This guy is a patsy. His facebook and twitter accounts are not only in English, they’re only a couple days old. He wasn’t meant to get caught but just in case they prepared a weak ‘back story’

      Despite no official loans or independent work, he started multiple businesses and continued to get large sums of money. His farming business was responsible for purchasing the grain likely used in the explosions. Somebody paid him. The campers are saying there were multiple shooters now but the MSM isn’t picking up on this. They never do. Just like how nearly all the Columbine students saw more than two shooters and likely more than two people were involved in the OK city blast.

      There is nothing wrong with conspiracy theory unless you go off into fringe territory (lizards, aliens, holograms, etc.). Mossad and CIA have been caught before selling weapons illegal, selling drugs, committing false flags terrorist attacks, etc. This incident was too big for one person of his caliber. The media makes up their own conspiracy theories and lies. The immediate Muslim blame for example. On CNN and NYT. CNN is STILL not ruling it out. MSNBC has the nerve to say “this wasn’t terrorism after all” I guess because it wasn’t Muslims.

  7. Mndwss
    July 23, 2011, 11:50 am

    “Why Breivik, and his accomplices if he had any, would attack young Norwegians remains unclear.”

    The young Norwegians in AUF supports boycott against israel.

    The leader of AUF Eskil Pedersen July 20 2011:

    “We in AUF wants a unilateral norwegian economic boycott of israel, says Pedersen” (Vi i AUF vil ha en ensidig økonomisk boikott av Israel fra norsk side, sier Pedersen.)

    link to dagbladet.no

    • annie
      July 23, 2011, 11:56 am

      right, this was all over the news the days before the attack and not a word connecting the two in response to these same youth being targeted. translation of your news report

      Dialogue is no, Jonas
      AUF leader Eskil Pedersen believes it is time for stronger measures against Israel.

      ALEXANDER STENERUD
      alexander.stenerud @ dagbladet.no
      20.07.2011, kl. 6:56 p.m.
      TIP Print this article Share on Facebook
      BOYCOTT: AUF leader Eskil Pedersen believes the time has come for more drastic measures against Israel, and wants the Foreign Minister to impose an economic boycott against the country. Photo: Eirik Helland Urke / Dagbladet

      BOYCOTT: AUF leader Eskil Pedersen believes the time has come for more drastic measures against Israel, and wants the Foreign Minister to impose an economic boycott against the country. Photo: Eirik Helland Urke / Dagbladet
      This week is about a thousand members of Labour Youth (AUF) collected Utøya to discuss politics. On Thursday comes Jonas Gahr Store to Utøya to debate the Middle East.

      The foreign minister believes in dialogue in the conflict between Israel and Palestine, but the leader of AUF Eskil Pedersen has a clear message to the Minister.

      – We like to talk, but as we have seen so has Israel not been interested, and have not listened to any of the clashes that have been made. The peace process is the wrong way, and though the whole world screaming for Israel to comply, they do not. We in Labour Youth will have a unilateral economic embargo of Israel from the Norwegian side, says Pedersen.

      Extreme
      AUF leader says dialogue can no longer have anything to offer in the face of Israel, and believes it is high time that the new measures are adopted. Pedersen believes that the Israeli authorities have now moved so far right that it is impossible to have any conversations with them.

      – Norway has little opportunity to influence in any way, and we are no closer to any peace in the conflict. Rather the contrary. Israel has moved very far to the right, which means that it will get the dialogue partners. I would dare say that even foreign politicians from the Progress Party will struggle to find conversation partners in Israel. There is no call web anymore. I mean is that we should talk to everyone, but we can not sacrifice our principles and our policies, just to talk, he said.

      Rent
      AUF has long been an international boycott of Israel, but the decision at the last congress, demanding that Norway imposes a unilateral economic embargo of the country, was sharper than before.

      – I acknowledge that this is a drastic measure, but I think it gives a clear indication that we are tired of Israel’s behavior. Large parts of the world react all the time, but Israel will not listen. I think the decision is a sign that we in the AUF is tired of Israel, quite simply, he says.

      “a thousand members of Labour Youth (AUF) collected Utøya “

      • James
        July 23, 2011, 12:18 pm

        shocking how this has unfolded and i wonder if some of the points being articulated here will ever see the light of day in the mainstream press? it will be interesting to see how the information around this horrifc event unfolds given the “not so background” story to it..

      • annie
        July 23, 2011, 12:41 pm

        if some of the points being articulated here will ever see the light of day in the mainstream press?

        i suspect this info won’t gain traction in either the US or UK but i read it on a european blog about 24 hrs ago. people are not stupid. it’s normal when huge horrific events happen people’s minds are sometimes ‘wiped out’ (remember when rummy announced we’d ‘lost’ a few trillion the day before 9/11? that info was completely drowned out by the attack) but i don’t see how that can happen in this instance because the attack was right there at the camp. it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to associate the camp with..the camp. and it was all over the press in norway. so i imagine there will be some willful avoidance in the US and most english press but certainly not in norway, or eurpose. not when the PM was at the camp the day before discussing norway imposing an economic embargo on israel. my guess is this will be met with silence here. the best they could hope for is everyone to just shut up. not gonna happen.

      • James
        July 23, 2011, 2:53 pm

        i hope you are correct annie.. the anti muslim, arab bias in the media needs to be discussed and addressed… if not, the new york times, washington post and other such propaganda outlets will be seen more and more for the bullshit they help further… they sure don’t inform – that much is obvious..

      • Bumblebye
        July 23, 2011, 3:49 pm

        Craig Murray seems to have picked up on several Pam Geller Norway rants:
        link to craigmurray.org.uk
        Some of which were commented on by Breivik under his first and middle names.

      • American
        July 23, 2011, 11:13 pm

        I think it’s more than not inform….they deliberately mislead.
        On purpose.

  8. eee
    July 23, 2011, 12:09 pm

    80 kids shot dead? Who was responsible for security? Was there security at all? No Israeli government would survive such a fiasco and no Norwegian one should. Idiots and crazies are always there and they must be taken into account. And if it is true that he will be out in 21 years, that means the Norwegian justice system is completely bankrupt.

    • Cliff
      July 23, 2011, 12:25 pm

      I think he’ll end up serving more than 21 years. This is just too big.

    • Mndwss
      July 23, 2011, 12:37 pm

      The Israeli government is the world champion of surviving fiasco’s.

      This person will spend the rest of his life in prison.

      He will be sentenced to a 21 years prison sentence + 10 years of “safety” (sikring).

      Sikring is used if the person is deemed to be a threat to society and this will be extended with another 10 years until this person is dead.

      • tree
        July 23, 2011, 3:54 pm

        Thanks for the info on “sikring”. My thought was that the culprit could be charged with multiple counts, serve consecutively, and thus still be in jail even if he lived another 200+ years. Is such a sentence possible in Norway?

      • Mndwss
        July 23, 2011, 4:28 pm

        Sikring is new after 9/11.

        Maximum penalty before this was 21 years in prison.

    • Chaos4700
      July 23, 2011, 1:09 pm

      I don’t think you really understand, eee, that the rest of the world isn’t encased by twenty-foot-tall cement walls patrolled by snipers. The rest of the world doesn’t, generally, hide brown people behind painted walls and barbed wire and checkpoints.

      What we’re seeing is a little piece of what Israel is like, bleeding into the wider, saner world and I won’t argue with that.

      • Chaos4700
        July 23, 2011, 1:14 pm

        And anyway this DID happen in Israel! Hello?! Yitzhak Rabin?

    • mig
      July 23, 2011, 3:46 pm

      eee, again :

      “80 kids shot dead? Who was responsible for security? Was there security at all?”

      ++++ Look, we live in open society here in scandinavia. But i guess you love your prison camp living so much that we all should live in same manners, no thanks.

      ” No Israeli government would survive such a fiasco and no Norwegian one should.”

      ++++ And that would bring back lost lives by how ?

      ” Idiots and crazies are always there and they must be taken into account. ”

      ++++ While we stop living normal life ? Thats what those nut cases look and seek. Nope.

      “And if it is true that he will be out in 21 years, that means the Norwegian justice system is completely bankrupt.”

      ++++ I see its quite normal. But i take notice that you dont know what is normal.

    • Koshiro
      July 23, 2011, 3:55 pm

      No Israeli government would survive such a fiasco

      Oh? At what point does a right-wing lunatic shooting people become an unsurviveable disaster then? 29 killed are obviously not enough.

    • Djinn
      July 23, 2011, 4:11 pm

      I doubt anyone ever thought it needed security, most of the world doesn’t put armed guards at kids camps. Violent people exist everywhere its true but what would you have people do, sometimes it’s just not feasible to put guards and x-ray machines everywhere (and for most people not actually desirable). After the Tube bombings in London they didn’t install scanners at all stations, it would make people’s commute a 6 hour one instead of 30 minutes. We all make trade offs, even in Israel you don’t get patted down before boarding every bus. As for Norway’s legal system it’s actually good, not saying I’d personally be as progressive as they are but they have an extremely low recidivism rate when compared to countries that take a lock em up in dungeons approach.

    • straightline
      July 23, 2011, 5:37 pm

      15 years ago a similar event occurred in Australia on a smaller scale – 35 people were killed by a gunman at Port Arthur in Tasmania. In the aftermath the (right wing) Prime Minister at the time pushed the states of Australia to tighten gun ownership legislation.

      As to bankruptcy of the Norwegian justice system – I am sure that the gunman will receive a fair trial there and if found guilty punished according to the law. That is what real justice systems do. They don’t indulge in collective punishment.

    • MRW
      July 23, 2011, 7:56 pm

      Idiots and crazies are always there and they must be taken into account.

      This idiot and crazy was a rabid pro-Israeli supporter who published for four years on anti-Muslim and Zionist blogs. Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes sang his praises.

    • PissedOffAmerican
      July 23, 2011, 10:16 pm

      “And if it is true that he will be out in 21 years, that means the Norwegian justice system is completely bankrupt”

      Well golly, eee, IDF ghouls that shoot children rarely go to prison. Why should this guy? After all, eee, he’s on your side!

  9. tommy
    July 23, 2011, 12:33 pm

    The suspect in this case resembles militant conservative nationalists everywhere. He lived out a conservative’s fantasy of mass murdering people who believe in political and economic equality for everyone regardless of their ethnicity or creed.

    • Taxi
      July 23, 2011, 12:50 pm

      This sicko is a little more than just your average “militant conservative nationalist”.

      A ‘recruited’ mosad agent?

      Not a far-fetched plausibility as far as I’m concerned. Think about it: where the hell did he get all this weaponry? A lone lunatic activating two LARGE SCALE operations all by himself?

      Fishy.

      • annie
        July 23, 2011, 1:06 pm

        here’s the best video of the aftermath of the explosion i’ve seen thus far.

      • Mndwss
        July 23, 2011, 2:08 pm

        “A ‘recruited’ mosad agent?”

        Yes. Where did the money come from to buy or rent a farm to be allowed to buy the six tonnes of cemicals to make this bomb?

        This agent failed. He survived.

        And the norwegian government will fail when the interrogation reveals that this was in support of israel.

        They will conclude: It is not in our interest to comment on this.

      • Taxi
        July 23, 2011, 4:50 pm

        Mndwss,
        The Norwegian zionist mass-murderer kept a farm AND an apartment in Oslo. I suppose it’s a good cover to have a farm if you intend to be using fertilizer for home-made bombs. But the unexploded bombs already found on the island plus the copious amount of amo he had access to (he fired for one and a half hours before getting caught and that’s a heck of a lotta amo!), all this would indeed indicate he plausibly had material assistance from an expert source.

        N49,
        Do you honestly think israelis care about ANYBODY but themselves? You don’t reckon that the mosad would be willing to set-up and sacrifice the life of this twisted with islamophobia Norwegian goy just so it can smack up at the growing international support for Palestinian justice? With September round the corner and Palestinian declaration of statehood being the issue, I ask everyone not to underestimate the desperate israelis’ deep desire to punish the Norwegians as well as others for their pro-Palestinian stand. Don’t underestimate the benefits they gain from recruiting indigenous extremists to further their cause of maintaining their Apartheid state. The zionist’s ultimate desirable cover after all, their ultimate wet dream, is a full-blown war between east and west, between christians and moslems.

        You’d better believe it too that the majority of israelis you may meet on your travels around the world are actually undercover mosad agents.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        July 23, 2011, 9:32 pm

        Taxi,

        I don’t underestimate the lengths these guys will go to further their goals. I just don’t see this act as having furthered said goals. Quite the opposite, in fact. And this would have been forseeable. So it doesn’t make any sense that such an operation would have been planned.

        -N49

      • James
        July 23, 2011, 2:54 pm

        taxi quote “A lone lunatic activating two LARGE SCALE operations all by himself?” that is not making any sense at this point…

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        July 23, 2011, 3:40 pm

        >> A ‘recruited’ mosad agent? Not a far-fetched plausibility as far as I’m concerned.

        Nah, Taxi, you are rarely off but you are here. This is not good for Israel and so there is no motive. As well, there has been no orchestrated post-event framing. I get suspicious when an hour after the event the media has fine details on the suspect’s childhood reading list. (Remember the 9/11 hijacker’s passport that was found perfectly intact in the smouldering rubble?) Also, the gunman hardly seems the patsy-type that are typically recruited.

        A Mossad job would run like this:

        A kid, originally from somewar-torn country (N. Africa?), living in Norway alone and away from his family (who may be in duress back home), not too smart, perhaps even a little retarded, grows a beard, gets some late-model guns, goes on a rampage shouting “Allahu Akbar”, all live-Tweeted. The kid gets killed (the patsy can’t ever, ever survive) and within minutes, experts from all the think-tanks have the guy’s entire life at their finger tips, all used as a cautionary tale of Muslim hate lapping up against our shores.

        In contrast, for me, this felt more like a Baruch Goldstein -esque attack. Or Marc Lepine. It was very political.

        The is also very bad for Israel. We may not read about the killer’s pro-Israel views, but they sure as hell will in Norway. This will strengthen anti-Israel sentiment there.

      • PissedOffAmerican
        July 23, 2011, 7:25 pm

        “Nah, Taxi, you are rarely off but you are here. This is not good for Israel and so there is no motive”

        Only because he was caught. Had he not of been caught, the origional story, apparently a CIA fabrication, would now be the headline.

        And those in Norway, that expressed sympathy for the Palestinian agenda of seeking statehood at the UN would have recieved a message about just how foolish it is to take the side of the Muslim heathens, who will turn on you anyway.

      • MRW
        July 23, 2011, 8:03 pm

        I think the island shooting was an after-thought, as I write somewhere else on this thread. It happened, what, two to three hours after the bombing when he’s still pulsing with adrenaline? The publication and televising of the foreign minister on Utoya the day before agreeing with the youth that Palestine must be a separate site, and Israel must stop the occupation, etc made those kids sitting ducks.

        If the bombing had stayed the bombing, the world would have believed the Muslims-did-it line. ABB was a loose cannon in more ways than one.

      • Bumblebye
        July 23, 2011, 9:21 pm

        Unlikely. He had too much ammo for it to be an afterthought. It probably went on longer than he ever expected tho, since the cops, once notified, had difficulty getting across to the island. Check out rich b’s liveleak link below, this guy sees himself as some kind of neo-Knights Templar type. The vid, to which he has added a couple of his own pics, summarizes his 1500pp manifesto, which he signs as some KT position.

      • MRW
        July 24, 2011, 2:06 am

        Bumblebye,

        I think he probably had the farm stocked with ammo. Did you see the photo of himself in his manifesto video (in the last minute)? He’s packed with ammo in a wet suit with a high-powered rifle I’ve never seen before. It looks like a double-barrelled digital number with a fancy scope.

        One report said that he lived with his mother in a wealthy section of Oslo. Another said he had an apartment in Oslo and a farm in Rena.

        If his wealthy mother had a house and not an apartment, there would be room to store stuff there.

        I’m not making any real point here, Bumblebye, but unless the Boycott Israel demonstration on Utoya and Abbas’s appearance in Oslo this week where known two months ago, then it strikes me that it was an add-on. Sort of like an idea that popped up this week. He certainly had the ammo for it.

        Oslo police refuse to confirm that the bomb was a fertilizer bomb. That’s the media after seeing and photographing fertilizer at his farm.

        And I am particularly interested in the Norwegian tweets that said there were two people shooting.

      • tommy
        July 23, 2011, 4:46 pm

        I am not willing to involve Israel in this crime until credible evidence is revealed. Even though Israel does represent the exhibition of rabid militant nationalism and has powerful political factions that support, plan, and execute violence against similar innocents for the expansion and dominance of the nation, it is too soon to know who else was involved.

      • MLE
        July 23, 2011, 11:19 pm

        I agree. I know we all know that Israel has done acts like this before, but when we blindly speculate about Israel’s involvement with flimsy evidence, it sounds too much like the people who immediately jumped to the conclusion that Muslims were the perpetrators.

        The Norwegian government and press doesn’t have a history of catering to Israeli pressure as easily as the US does, and since the victims were the children of the ruling part of Norway- you can bet that if there is evidence of Israeli involvement, there will be a scandal.

        Using this tragedy in a constructive manner would be to stress the need to monitor these far right anti Muslim groups and reverse the mindset that terrorism is committed only by Muslims. First responders and Homeland Security should be focusing on the dangers other groups pose as well. Also, supporting Norwegians and encouraging them to continue to remain an open and tolerant society.

      • Duscany
        July 24, 2011, 1:19 am

        I agree. No one ought to be making sensational charges about Israeli involvement in this without some really hard evidence.

        As for the notion that this was too complex an operation to be carried out by one man without the support of a foreign state, that’s simply not true. The only difference between a fertilizer plant and a bomb factory is the sign on the door. Fertilizer bombs can be made by any handyman with access to fertilizer and diesel fuel. Witness the bombing of the Army Math Center at the University of Wisconsin in 1970.

        As for the rifle assault on the people on the island, all the perpetrator needed to carry that out was a police uniform, a weapon and lots of ammo. Charles Witman did the same thing at the University of Texas back in 1966 and no one ever claimed he had outside support.

      • Djinn
        July 24, 2011, 9:16 am

        Seconding Duscany, the insistence that this couldn’t have been carried out by one person or that the bomb was “to large” make no sense at all if you have any familiarity with weapons/explosives. It may turn out that he did have help in some ways however it is nonsense to suggest it couldn’t have been done by one man with a few guns & a fertilizer bomb.

      • Mooser
        July 25, 2011, 11:31 am

        No one is charging Israel with anything. No one at all.
        Once again, it’s a good idea to read and understand the post before commenting.

  10. clairseoir
    July 23, 2011, 12:39 pm

    Since the Norwegians didn’t steal Norway from anyone else, I suspect they’ve never felt the need to turn it into an armed camp. eee’s concern for the loss of innocent life is, however, touching.

    • James
      July 23, 2011, 2:57 pm

      i think that distinction along with many other ones is completely lost on the eee’s of this world…. part of the right wing conservative mindset seems to be a love of security without a consideration of what the basis for much of it is coming out of… the war on terrorism is a perfect platform for a step into the darkness with these same freaks..

  11. annie
    July 23, 2011, 12:54 pm

    greenwald

    Meanwhile, in the world of reality, of 294 Terrorist attacks attempted or executed on European soil in 2009 as counted by the EU, a grand total of one — 1 out of 294 — was perpetrated by “Islamists.”

    this is a really good article.

  12. Taxi
    July 23, 2011, 1:06 pm

    “Survivors described a scene there of terror. Several people fled into the water to escape the rampage, and police said they were still searching the lake for bodies.

    Asked whether all victims at Utoya died from gunshot wounds or if some had drowned, Stoere, the foreign minister, said “you will likely see a combination.”

    A 15-year-old camper named Elise who was on Utoya said she heard gunshots, but then saw a police officer and thought she was safe. Then he started shooting people right before her eyes.

    “I saw many dead people,” said Elise, whose father, Vidar Myhre, didn’t want her to disclose her last name. “He first shot people on the island. Afterward he started shooting people in the water.”

    Elise said she hid behind the same rock that the killer was standing on. “I could hear his breathing from the top of the rock,” she said.

    She said it was impossible to say how many minutes passed while she was waiting for him to stop.

    At a hotel in the village of Sundvollen, where survivors of the shooting were taken, 21-year-old Dana Berzingi wore pants stained with blood. He said the fake police officer ordered people to come closer, then pulled weapons and ammunition from a bag and started shooting.

    Several victims “had pretended they were dead to survive,” Berzingi said. But after shooting the victims with one gun, the gunman shot them again in the head with a shotgun, he said.” (AP)

    • annie
      July 23, 2011, 1:23 pm

      here is a gripping testimony translated.
      i wonder how many kids drowned trying to save themselves.

      so horrible. a madman terrorist.
      edit, i am having a problem w/linking so i will copy it

      Hell on Utøya

      I woke up. I can not sleep more. I’m sitting in the living room. Feeling grief, anger, happiness, God, I do not know what. There are too many emotions. There are too many thoughts. I’m afraid. I react to the slightest sound. I will write about what happened on Utøya. What my eyes saw, what I felt, what I did. The words come straight from the liver, but I would also anonymize many names out of respect for my friends.

      We had a crisis meeting in the main building after the explosions in Oslo. After that there was a meeting for members of Akershus and Oslo. After the meetings were many, many people around and in the main building. We consoled ourselves that we were safe on an island. No one knew that hell would break out with us too.

      I stood in the main time when panic broke out. I heard shots. I saw him shoot. All started to run. The first thought was: “Why shoot the police on us? What the hell? “I ran into the little room. People ran. Screamed. I was scared. I managed to get into one of the rooms at the back of the building. We were many in there. We lay on the floor all together. We heard several shots. Were more afraid. I cried. I knew nothing. I saw my best friend through the window and wondered if I should go out and bring him to me. I did not. I saw fear in his eyes. We were lying on the floor inside the room for a few minutes. We agreed not to release more in case the killer came. We heard several shots and decided to jump out the window. Panic broke out among us. All in the room rushed to the window and tried to jump out. I was the last and thought: “I am the last to jump out the window. Now I’m dying. I’m sure, but it might be okay, then I know that the others are safe. “I kasket my bag out the window. Tried to managed down, but lost her grip. I landed hard on the left part of the body. A boy helped me up. We ran into the woods. I looked around. “Is he here? Shoot him for me? Viewing him myself? “A girl had a broken ankle. Another was severely injured. I tried to help a little bit before I went down to the water. I sought cover behind a sort of brick wall. We were many. I prayed, prayed, prayed. I hope that God saw me. I called Mom and said that it was not safe we ​​would meet again, but that I would do anything to clear me. I said several times that I loved her. I heard fear in her voice. She cried. It hurt. I sent a text message to my dad, told him I loved him. I sent a text message to another person I am very, very happy in. We were a little contact. I sent a text message to my best friend. He did not answer. We heard several shots. Snuggled together. Did everything we could to keep warm. There were so many thoughts. I was so scared. My dad called me. I cried, said I loved him. He said he was going with my brother to take me welcome when I come across to the mainland, or they came to the island. There were so many emotions. So many thoughts. I told everything I could. It took some time. The other called parents eventually started all texting for fear that the killer would hear us. I thought of my sister who’s away. How I would tell her how it went? What happened to me. I updated on Twitter and Facebook that I was still alive and that I was “safe.” I wrote that I was waiting for the police. People jumped into the water, started swimming. I was lying. I decided that if he did, I would play dead. I would not run or swim. I can not describe the fear, all your mind, what I felt.

      A one came. “I’m from the police.” I was lying. Some shouted back that he had to prove it. I do not remember exactly what he said, but the killer started shooting. He charged. Extension more. He shot those around me. I was lying. I think: “Now it’s over. He’s here. He takes me. Now I’m dying. “People screamed. I heard that others were shot. Others jumped into the water. I was there. The mobile phone in hand. I lay on top of the legs of a girl. Thurs the 2nd was on top of my leg. I was lying. The insert in text messages. The mobile phone rang several times. I was lying. I played dead. I lay there for at least an hour. It was completely quiet. I gently turned her head to see if I could see someone live. I looked like. I saw blood. Fear. I decided to get up. I had been lying on top of a dead body. Thurs like lying to me. I had a guardian angel.

      I did not know if he would come back again. I had not the courage to look at all those who had called and texted me. I hurried down to the water. I took off my sweater. It was great. I thought it would be difficult to swim to me. I considered whether I should bring my cell phone or leave it again. I put it in his back pocket and jumped into the water. I saw several others in the water. They had swum far. I saw that someone had gathered around a floating luftbåt or something like that. There were many who picked up those who swam out. I swam, swam, and swam towards the air thing. I screamed. Weep. Was cool. I thought of when I would drown. It was heavier and heavier. I asked. I continued. Was tired arms. Decided to turn my back and just use your legs to swim on. I sank. I started to swim normally again. A little while I thought they had gathered around the air boat began to move away. I screamed. Begged them to wait for me. I must have seen visions. I swam at least a few hundred meters before I arrived. We talked a little together. Did what we called, where we came from. When the boats passed us shouting for help, but they picked up the others just swam first. A man in a boat came to us. He threw out several life jackets. I got hold of one. Got it on me. I held on to the small air boat a long time until the same man came back to pick us up. All got into it. He began to run towards the shore. After a while it started small his boat to take in some water. I did everything I could to get the most water out. I used a bucket. I was exhausted. Another girl in the boat took over. We came to the country. We got blankets. Tears pressed on. I cried more. A woman hugged me. It was so good. I wept aloud. I sobbed. A man lent me his phone. I called my dad, “I live. I did it. Now I am safe. “I hung up. Cry more. We had to walk a bit. Completely unknown people took us into their cars and drove us to Sundvollen hotel. I ran in to see if I could see my best friend. I saw him at any place. I saw a friend. I cried loudly. We hugged each other for long. It was good. I walked around, looking for friends. My heart pounded. I cried more. I signed up with the police, then through all the lists. I did not know about my best friend lived. I looked through all the lists. I could not find his name anywhere. I was scared. I got a duvet. I took off my wet socks. I was half naked. Got a jacket. I tried to dial a bit. Contacted my parents again. My dad and brother were on their way to fetch me. I drank some cocoa. I sat down. Thought. Weep. So many friends. Hugged them. Weep. I borrowed a computer. Updated the Facebook and Twitter again that I was safe. I was at the hotel for several hours before my family came. I looked for familiar. I talked to a priest. I told all I had seen. It was a good call. A man from the Red Cross saw all my wounds. Cleanse them. Time passed. I was with some of my friends. All talked about the same. How we survived. What had happened. I asked several if they had seen my best friend. No one had seen him. I was scared. I thought that it was my fault because we had not managed to stay together. A friend got the key to a hotel room. We sat there, looked at the news. There was anger, sorrow, so many emotions. My dad called, they had come. I took the elevator down. Run out to them. Hugged my brother and my dad a long time. I wept aloud. My brother was crying too. It was a good moment. I saw a boy who looked like my best friend. I shouted his name. He turned around. It was him. We hugged each other for long. Both crying, we asked each other how we had managed. After a while, I registered myself and we drove home. Someone else sat in with us. My best friend was with me. His brother had come to me with his best friend. There were several who had gathered at my home. They would not go home until they had seen that I was fine. We talked a little bit. I drank a juice Gladden. Ate a yogurt. Talked some more with my mom and my family. I called my best friend. It was a good call. She said: “I was not sure if I would ever get this phone.” Tears pressed on. We talked a little bit. After that I lay. It was three. Mom refused to let me sleep alone, so we slept together.

      There have been several hours since all this happened. I’m still in shock. Everything has not fallen into. I have seen the corpses of my friends. Several of my friends are missing. I am glad that I can swim. I am glad that I live. For that God watched over me. There are so many emotions, so many thoughts. I think of all the relatives. In all I lost. In the hell that is and was on the island. This summer’s most beautiful fairy tale is transformed into Norway’s worst nightmare.

      • Taxi
        July 23, 2011, 1:45 pm

        Tears, many tears: raw and soul-gripping account of the massacre by one of it’s young survivors.

  13. kapok
    July 23, 2011, 1:13 pm

    Seems to fit a pattern: right wing, loner, gun-crazed, millenarian…

    He read a dreadful book and now thinks he’s an expert.

    • Chaos4700
      July 23, 2011, 8:38 pm

      Maybe he wrote a dreadful book, too. That would also be par for the course.

  14. jayn0t
    July 23, 2011, 1:59 pm

    “Following the Oklahoma bombing our media was nothing but anti-Muslim… that legislation was not undone upon the discovery that it was one of our own white Christian terrorists at work.” says Les. In fact, the left was fairly successful into embarrassing the media into dropping the assumption that Muslim extremists are more dangerous than Christian ones. But that was before September 11th 2001.

    Much of the left still jumps at any chance to say ‘look – white Christian terrorists are more of a danger’. This is how to look dumb, not how to combat Islamophobia.

  15. Charon
    July 23, 2011, 2:08 pm

    The eyewitness accounts from the youth camp indicate multiple shooters. The MSM seems to be determined to pin this all on one guy, but the death toll is way too high. The bombing, which took place on a holiday btw so the buildings were mostly empty, is pretty bad. It affected a large area, like an entire city block. Youtube strangely keeps deleting the vids, but go look. The damage is severe. They also keep deleting a vid showing another explosion. People indicate you can smell sulfur in the area.

    So if this was one guy, not only did he do this, but he went to that island, got past security, planted more bombs (which were discovered and allegedly did not explode) and killed nearly 100 young people. There is just no way that’s one guy. He’s a patsy. His now-deleted facebook and twitter are only a couple days old. They’re in English too, why would he write in English? A Polish youtuber uploaded a video a day prior with a title that said “Oslo bombing 7/22″ or something like that. This is not the work of one person, only the Mossad or CIA or MI6, etc. could carry out such an attack with precision.

    The Israeli news blog comments were disgusting too saying Norway deserved it and calling for the death of Muslims who weren’t even involved. Despite what the MSM says, the police are still looking for victims and no investigation has begun yet. This guy is in custody but he has NOT been charged. The police in Norway say be suspicious of what the news says because no conclusions have been made. It’s as if the CNNs and NYTs are being fed a script just like the Bin Laden thing. Circumstantial evidence and lies to make a story. They lied about the Jihad thing, the ‘terror expert’ who claimed that was a CIA guy who also works with Israel by the way.

    That youth camp just had a meeting one day prior with Norway’s foreign minister regarding ending the occupation, Palestinian statehood, boycotting Israel, etc. The FM mostly agreed too. Then a day later this. The PM was supposed to visit that day too. Perhaps he was a target too other than the kids who represent future leaders of Norway. The PM’s statement indicated he was referring to an external entity trying to ‘silence’ Norway too. The borders and airports and the royal family had their security strengthened and they are saying to restrict using mobile phones.

    I’ve embraced conspiracy theories. There are no coincidences. The MSM is propaganda and lies and makes up their own conspiracy theories. Draw your own conclusions. Research everything. Don’t listen to what anybody says, decide for yourself. There are evil people out there.. A rouge US shadow government with the CIA and military in its control. The Likudite terrorists who control the Knesset in Israel. These are not good people. They would do something like this. And the Rupert Murdoch’s of the world controlling most of the propaganda machine can say whatever they want you to think but that doesn’t make it true.

    • NorthOfFortyNine
      July 23, 2011, 9:45 pm

      >> So if this was one guy, not only did he do this, but he went to that island, got past security, planted more bombs (which were discovered and allegedly did not explode) and killed nearly 100 young people. There is just no way that’s one guy. He’s a patsy.

      800 people had gathered on a small (300m x 500m) island. There was no security and there was nowhere to flee. It took the SWAT team about two hours to get there and by then, the killer had run our of ammo. It is very easy to see how he could have killed 85 people.

      And there is no motive. This will hurt Israel. It makes no sense. -N49.

      • Duscany
        July 24, 2011, 1:24 am

        You’re entirely right. One man could have readily carried all this out entirely on his own. A couple of college students blew up the Army Math Center at Wisconsin without needing the Mossad. And Charles Whitman killed 16 at the University of Texas without their assistance either.

  16. Haytham
    July 23, 2011, 3:14 pm

    While it is still too early for a complete portrait of the killer, Anders Behring Breivik, there are enough details to begin to piece together what’s behind the attack.

    Did I miss something? Did this guy have a trial and get found guilty? Just saying.

    And to those of you saying, wait, wait, wait he is obviously a nut job, I say nice try. Israel and the US always pull the “insane” card when one of theirs commits some horrific (and most times racist) act of political violence. Arabs and/or Muslims get no such benefit of the doubt when one of their nut jobs blows something up. The Muslim isn’t “insane,” he’s just evil.

    • tree
      July 23, 2011, 4:00 pm

      Israel and the US always pull the “insane” card when one of theirs commits some horrific (and most times racist) act of political violence. Arabs and/or Muslims get no such benefit of the doubt when one of their nut jobs blows something up. The Muslim isn’t “insane,” he’s just evil.

      Good point, well said.

    • Bumblebye
      July 23, 2011, 11:23 pm

      I now hear he plans to give his “reasons” for his killing spree in court on Monday. He has admitted responsibility for both acts of terror. If you watch his ugly video, you’ll see twisted faith and politics involved. He is evil, and he is a terrorist. So was McVeigh.

      • annie
        July 23, 2011, 11:46 pm

        he’s quite a prolific blogger. dozens of articles on Jihad Watch, about a third as many on Atlas Shrugs.

        Atlas Shrugs A History of the Indo-European Languages
        Book Review: A God Who Hates, by Wafa Sultan
        The Causes of Anti-Semitism Part 2
        Fjordman reviews Spencer’s Stealth Jihad
        A History of Beer — Part 3
        A History of European Music Part II
        A History of Geology and Planetary Science Part 3
        A History of Mathematical Astronomy, Part 3
        A History of Medicine, part II
        A History of Optics, Part 2
        A History of Optics, Part 6
        The History of the Calendar
        Ibn Warraq: Defending the West
        Mathematics and Religion
        On the Collapsing US Dollar
        Reparations From Muslims?
        Swedish Hypocrisy Regarding Israel and Muslims
        What was the First Novel?
        Why Islam Cannot Be Reformed

  17. NickJOCW
    July 23, 2011, 3:31 pm

    This is clearly the work of a nutcase sick person, and it is only marginally less credible to attribute it to Zionist rather than Islamic fundamentalist inspiration. We must be careful not to enter that arena which treats the truth as a competitive spectator sport.

    • Djinn
      July 23, 2011, 4:17 pm

      I’m with Nick, with all respect to MW posters I rarely if ever disagree with, I’m no more keen on this speculation (its one thing noting the suspect in custody had a history of nationalist anti Muslim, pro Zionist ranting anything else is guesswork right now) than those who assumed it had to be the work of Muslims. The police have to work while the trail is hot. I think we can afford to wait until the grieving have at least had a chance to bury their dead.

      • Koshiro
        July 23, 2011, 5:03 pm

        I agree. At least we should give this some time. Norwegian police will without a doubt thoroughly investigate the perpetrator’s motives and his possible connections to others.

      • richb
        July 23, 2011, 6:42 pm

        Norwegian public broadcaster NRK is confirming that the manifesto was admitted to police by the suspect.

        link to translate.google.com

        TV2, writes that they have police sources as confirming that Anders Behring Breivik has confessed to having published the document and video on the Internet.

        This is no longer speculation and the information is coming from the aforementioned police.

    • MRW
      July 23, 2011, 5:44 pm

      The hell it is, NickJOCW. Scroll up and check out annie’s post at July 23, 2011 at 11:30 am.

      Motive is right there. Read it.

  18. Kate
    July 23, 2011, 4:25 pm

    Many have wondered how one man with, apparently, two guns could terrorize a whole island full of people without being stopped. In the US probably someone else – perhaps several people – would have been routinely carrying a gun, and would have been able to stop him. That might be the only positive thing about the multiplicity of guns in the US. I assume that gun permits are not that easy to come by in Norway?

    • piotr
      July 23, 2011, 7:19 pm

      The killer was a member of a pistol club and a hunter. It is a huge difference between a looser who got his hands on some guns and a marksman.

    • Mooser
      July 23, 2011, 10:23 pm

      “In the US probably someone else – perhaps several people – would have been routinely carrying a gun,”

      You don’t have a lot of experience with guns, do you? Do you think they just have to fire it in his direction to stop him? What makes you so sure anybody who is cowardly enough to carry a gun is going to jump in in front of a good marksman and be a hero? Usually people who carry guns don’t give a shit about anybody but themselves. Those mild-mannered but herioc people who carry guns and stop mass murders exist only on TV.

      • Kate
        July 24, 2011, 1:31 am

        I don’t have any firsthand experience with using guns, thank God. My group of ISMers was once shot at by a settler in the West Bank, but we figured he was only trying to scare us – he could have hit us if he’d wanted to.

        The only other experience I had was what could have been a tragedy when I was very young: My mother was an NRA (National Rifle Association) member and sometimes went target shooting at a gun club with a friend. She kept her rifle ammo (but no rifle, since she rented one at the club) in a closet in our house, where my younger sister and I found it one day when she was out. Thinking the shells/bullets might be like caps, the very small explosives used in toy ‘cap guns’ by most kids in the US in those days, we set out to make one of them explode by hitting it with a rock (the established way to make a whole roll of caps go off at once). Very fortunately that wasn’t sufficient to set off rifle ammunition. When my mother found out, that was the end of her keeping ammo in the house.

        I could have done without your condescending remark “Do you think they just have to fire it in his direction to stop him?” Of course not. But many people who carry concealed weapons have experience with guns and would know how to stop a gunman. Some are former soldiers or policemen. And I don’t think that having a permit for a concealed weapon necessarily means that the the person carrying it is a coward, not in this culture. It could mean that s/he lives or works in a dangerous place.

        You seem to be right in saying that “mild-mannered but heroic people who carry guns and stop mass murders exist only on TV.” This surprised me. I Googled such incidents and came up with only one: the New Life Church shooting. link to en.wikipedia.org

        “On Sunday, December 9, 2007, at about 1 p.m. Murray, armed with an assault rifle and two pistols, entered the foyer of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs and fatally shot two and wounded three others before himself being shot and wounded by Jeanne Assam, a church member acting as security. Murray then took his own life.

        At about 1 p.m. MST (20:00 UTC), 30 minutes after the 11 a.m. service had ended at New Life Church, Murray opened fire in the church parking lot shooting the Works family and Judy Purcell, 40. Murray then entered the building’s main foyer where he shot Larry Bourbonnais, 59, hitting him in the forearm. At this point, Assam opened fire on Murray with her personally owned concealed weapon. Police say that after suffering multiple hits from Assam’s gun, Murray fatally shot himself. Assam later stated that “God guided me and protected me [and I] did not think for a minute to run away.”

        Not very cowardly.

      • Mooser
        July 24, 2011, 10:54 am

        “I Googled such incidents and came up with only one:”

        Exactly, only one, and that one concerns a person who had a role as “security”
        The idea that the indiscriminate arming of a society will somehow stop crime is completely ridiculous, and solely a product of media.
        In life bullets follow the laws of physics, chemistry, and ballistics. In the media, guns always follow the script. It’s important not to get them mixed up.

      • Mooser
        July 24, 2011, 10:56 am

        “But many people who carry concealed weapons have experience with guns and would know how to stop a gunman. Some are former soldiers or policemen. And I don’t think that having a permit for a concealed weapon necessarily means that the the person carrying it is a coward, not in this culture. It could mean that s/he lives or works in a dangerous place.”

        ROTFLMSJAO!

      • Mooser
        July 24, 2011, 11:18 am

        “When my mother found out, that was the end of her keeping ammo in the house.”

        But how can your Mom protect you if she doesn’t have a loaded gun, easily available, handy at all times? Crime never sleeps, you know!

    • Koshiro
      July 24, 2011, 8:56 am

      There have been spree killings of a similar scope (most recently Virginia tech) and the only guns ever to turn against the killers in these cases were their own.

      What made this attack particularly deadly was (odious as it is to say this) how well-planned it was. The perpetrator had diverted police and public attention by the bomb blast. If I may speculate a little, it was probably also easier for him to move in disguise as a heavily armed policeman in this atmosphere, without raising eyebrows.
      The police uniform in itself, of course, was also an element of his meticulous planning. In a panic, when all you know is that you heard gunshots and that people are being hit, you suddenly spot an armed policeman. Your first assumption is naturally not going to be that he is the killer, ergo you are not going to run away. You are more likely to approach him for help.

      He chose for his attack a small island, accessible only by boat, full of people he wanted to kill. That denied his victims an easy escape route, police would take some time to arrive at the scene and gave him enough time and opportunity to kill as many kids as possible. Of course, the fact that the victims were kids and young people (who would not carry guns in the US either) also helped him.

      The precision and ruthlessness with which this man planned and carried out his murders is baffling, indeed.

  19. Eva Smagacz
    July 23, 2011, 4:37 pm

    (Reuters) – A video on the YouTube website promoting a fight against Islam apparently shows pictures of the man suspected of a gun and bomb attack in Norway, wearing a wetsuit and pointing an automatic weapon.

    The pictures appear at the end of an approximately 12-minute video called “Knights Templar 2083.”

  20. kalithea
    July 23, 2011, 4:52 pm

    Logic tells us that this is the handiwork of more than one person.

    You have to be pretty devious to strike at the future of left-wing politics in Norway. The attack in the city was a clear message: we’re gunning for the top and will take the future of this party down with it…which was the sequel attack on the camp.

    Who could hate Norway this much.?

    Zionists hate Norway to the core.

  21. DICKERSON3870
    July 23, 2011, 4:53 pm

    RE: “The EDL, a group Breivik praises, along with the anti-Muslim politician Geert Wilders, share with Breivik an admiration for Israel.” ~ Alex Kane

    SEE: British Anti-Muslim Nativists Riot, Muslim Immigrant Murdered, By Richard Silverstein, 09/10/09
    (excerpt)…The coverage features a picture of the lily-white [EDL] demonstrators proudly waving an Israeli flag. With ‘friends’ like this does Israel need enemies? …
    SOURCE (with photo) – link to richardsilverstein.com
    English Defence League – link to en.wikipedia.org

  22. DICKERSON3870
    July 23, 2011, 5:18 pm

    RE: “In 1990, Pipes wrote in the National Review that “Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene…” ~ Alex Kane

    MY COMMENT: Daniel Pipes seems almost as deranged as the Davids Duke and Horowitz!

    SEE: In Jerusalem, Pipes suggests Muslim polygamy has ended ‘Jane Austen’ England, By Philip Weiss, 09/17/10
    (excerpts)

    …Here is a snapshot of Jerusalem life. My wife and I go to dinner in the German Colony, a good neighborhood in West Jerusalem…
    …We walk home past a conference center. Former Israeli Ambassador Dore Gold is outside talking on a cell phone. Inside, Daniel Pipes is speaking, the U.S. neoconservative, the hall is sold out, but we jam in the back. The Hadar-Israel Council for Civic Action. He’s talking about the Muslim threat in Europe. England and Sweden have lost their essential character, England has given up the “Jane Austen” side of its culture for a new Muslim flavored England. “Before our eyes it is becoming a different country.”…
    …The problem is not the hijab or the minarets, that is just “symbolic,” Pipes says. The problem is laws that allow polygamy. Apparently that is the thin edge of the wedge that will destroy western civilization, Muslim practice of polygamy! Pipes says that we must use all means we can to counter radical Islam, including “demographic” means. I am not sure what he means, but he suggests that means having more babies. Europeans are only having 2/3 of the babies they “need” to have to replace themselves. Immigrants are making up much of the rest.
    The audience asks a bunch of questions that are intolerant of Islam. One woman with a strong accent calls Pipes naive and says that we should be dealing with the Muslim world as we should have dealt with the Nazis.
    So Daniel Pipes is a liberal! Only in Jerusalem…

    SOURCE – link to mondoweiss.net

  23. richb
    July 23, 2011, 6:14 pm

    Like the Unabomber he’s published an over 1000-page manifesto. For example:

    The myth didn’t die with the collapse of the Turkish Empire after World War I. Rather it took another form: that of the National Arab Movement, which promoted an Arab society where Christians and Muslims would live in perfect harmony. Once again, this was the fabrication of European politicians, writers and clergyman. And in the same way as the myth of the Ottoman political paradise was created to block the independence of the Balkan nations, so the Arab multi-religious fraternity was an argument to destroy the national liberation of non-Arab peoples of the Middle East (Kurds, Armenians, Assyrians, Maronites and Zionists.)

    And although from the beginning of this century until the 1930s, a stream of Christian refugees were fleeing massacres and genocide on the roads of Turkey, Irak and Syria, the myth continued to flourish, sustained mostly by Arab writers and clergyman. After the Israelis had succeeded in liberating their land from the laws of JIHAD and DHIMMITUDE, the myth reappeared in the form of a multi-cultural and multi-religious fraternal Palestine which had to replace the State of Israel (Cf. Arafat’s 1975 UN speech). Its pernicious effects led to the destruction of the Christians in Lebanon. One might have thought that the myth would end there.

    But suddenly the recent crisis in Yugoslavia offered a new chance for its reincarnation in a multi-religious Muslim Bosnian state. What a chance! A Muslim state again in the heartland of Europe. And we know the rest, the sufferings, the miseries, the trials of the war that this myth once again brought in its wake.

    To conclude, I would like to say a few last words. The civilisation of dhimmitude does not develop all at once. It is a long process that involves many elements and a specific conditioning. It happens when peoples replace history by myths, when they fight to uphold these destructive myths, more then their own values because they are confused by having transformed lies into truth. They hold to those myths as if they were the only guarantee of their survival, when, in fact, they are the path to destruction. Terrorised by the evidence and teaching of history, those peoples preferred to destroy it rather than to face it. They replace history with childish tales, thus living in amnesia.

    You MUST see the video that was released with the manifesto an hour before the bombing happened. It’s positively chilling. There’s a link to the full text of the manifesto via the same link below..

    link to liveleak.com

  24. NickJOCW
    July 23, 2011, 6:15 pm

    It is scarcely to be comprehended. Norway is not a large country and on a comparative per capita basis this would be the equivalent of around 480 US children. Silence is perhaps the only response.

    • Bumblebye
      July 23, 2011, 7:44 pm

      85 kids have died so far. Your multiple is wrong by a factor of 10. Norway’s population is around 5m. So that would be 5,100 children in the US.

  25. straightline
    July 23, 2011, 7:21 pm

    By and large I’d agree NickJOCW – I am totally saddened by this senseless act of vioence and weep for the parents of the children killed – as I did for the children of Gaza in Operation Cast Lead.

    But like the Australian Prime Minister Howard at the time of the Port Arthur massacre we can make something good come out of this. We can shame the Western MSM; its anti-Muslim bias is exposed for all to see and that truth needs to be hammered home. While we should not – as others have done – jump to conclusions about the (sole) guilt of the arrested man, we should weep for lost children and their families, and we should be pointing out as loudly as we can the bias of the Western media – even those like the Guardian and the BBC that we have come to trust more than the rest.

  26. tree
    July 23, 2011, 7:45 pm

    Anyone heard from Bruce Wolman about this? Isn’t he from Norway, or still in Norway?

  27. mig
    July 23, 2011, 7:45 pm

    So far, Norwegian police has confirmed that suspect has confessed his involment to both cases, bombing and shooting. That is information so far.

  28. DICKERSON3870
    July 23, 2011, 9:24 pm

    RE: “Breivik is apparently an avid fan of U.S.-based anti-Muslim activists such as Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes…” ~ Alex Kane

    FROM PAUL WOODWARD, War in Context, 07/23/11:

    …In his comments at Document.no, he says little about his religious beliefs and seems to see his Christian identity primarily as a cultural identity. He writes:
    I myself am a Protestant and baptized / confirmed to me by my own free will when I was 15
    But today’s Protestant church is a joke. Priests in jeans who march for Palestine and churches that look like the minimalist shopping centers. I am a supporter of an indirect collective conversion of the Protestant church back to the Catholic. In the meantime, I vote for the most conservative candidates in church elections.
    The only thing that can save the Protestant church is to go back to basics.

    Breivik is much more specific in identifying the sources from whom he takes his own ideological direction: Robert Spencer, Fjordman, Atlas [Pamela Geller], Analekta [Informatics], Gates of Vienna, The Brussels Journal, and The Religion of Peace.
    These are the preeminent voices promoting fear and hatred of Islam across Europe and America. But they also form — at least in Breivik’s mind — the “epicenter” of “political analysis” on the threat posed to cultural conservatives by multiculturalism in Europe and America. He recommends Fjordman’s book, “Defeating Eurabia,” as “the perfect Christmas gift for family and friends.”
    Do any of the leaders of Stop Islamization of America (SIOA) and Stop Islamization of Europe (SIOE) advocate that their “freedom fighters” should adopt violent tactics such as those employed by Breivik? Perhaps not. Indeed, I have little doubt that in the coming days we will hear many vociferous disavowals of their having any association with the Norwegian. But have no doubt, while they might have a sincere revulsion for Breivik’s actions, they cannot so easily disassociate themselves from the ideas that drove him to murder almost a hundred innocent people

    ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to warincontext.org

    • DICKERSON3870
      July 23, 2011, 11:07 pm

      P.S. “GLENZILLA” GREENWALD @ SALON IS ON THE CASE AS WELL!
      The omnipotence of Al Qaeda and meaninglessness of “Terrorism”link to salon.com

    • DICKERSON3870
      July 23, 2011, 11:54 pm

      P.P.S. FROM JUAN COLE 07/23/11:

      (excerpts) That the horrible terrorist attacks in Oslo on Friday that left some 90 persons or more dead– a bombing of the prime minister’s office and shootings at a Labor Party youth camp– were allegedly committed by a blonde, far right wing Norwegian fundamentalist Christian rather than by a radical Muslim group is being treated as a matter of surprise in some quarters. But if those journalists and analysts had been paying attention, they would not be surprised at all…
      …The suspect, Anders Behring Breivik, is anti-multiculturalist and believes that the Qur’an commands Muslims to be extremists. His attack on the Labour Party appears to have derived in part from its insufficient hate of people of other cultures. Breivik’s discourse, about Islam and the Qur’an being *essentially* evil, is part of the Islamophobia promoted by some right wing forces in the west; and his actions show where that kind of thinking can lead. I wrote in 2006:
      “The hatemongers are well known. Rupert Murdoch’s Fox Cable News, Rush Limbaugh’s radio program and its many clones, telebimbos like Ann Coulter, Evangelical leaders like Franklin Graham, Congressmen like Tom Tancredo, and a slew of far rightwing Zionists who would vote for Netanyahu (or Kach) if they lived in Israel– Frank Gaffney, Daniel Pipes, Michael Rubin, David Horowitz, etc., etc.”

      As anyone who studies the Old South in the US will tell you, turning some people into exemplars of the N-word requires that you punish in various ways the N-lovers…
      …The proponents of racial profiling who want to target some Orientalist imagination of the Muslim are extremely dangerous to our security, since they want to let European separatists, far leftists, and neo-Nazis off the hook while targeting Muslims, who commit little terrorism in Europe…

      ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to juancole.com

    • DICKERSON3870
      July 24, 2011, 12:16 am

      RE: “today’s Protestant church is a joke. Priests in jeans who march for Palestine…I am a supporter of an indirect collective conversion of the Protestant church back to the Catholic. In the meantime, I vote for the most conservative candidates in church elections.
      The only thing that can save the Protestant church is to go back to basics.*” ~ Anders Behring Breivik

      * MY QUESTION: But what could possibly be more “basic” to “the church” in Europe than good old fashioned anti-Semitism? Islamophobia?
      I have my doubts.

      A MIDSUMMER EVE’S MUSICAL INTERLUDE (courtesy of the folks at Ziocaine™):

      We are building a religion,
      We are building it bigger
      We are widening the corridors and adding more lanes
      We are building a religion.
      A limited edition
      We are now accepting callers for these pendant keychains
      To resist it is useless,
      It is useless to resist it…
      ~
      …Now today is tomorrow and tomorrow’s today
      And yesterday is weaving in and out
      And the fluffy white lines that the airplane leaves behind
      Are drifting right in front of the waning of the moon…
      ~ Cake

      Cake: We are Building a Religion (VIDEO, 03:46) – link to youtube.com

      • Mooser
        July 24, 2011, 11:00 am

        “The only thing that can save the Protestant church is to go back to basics.*”

        I completely agree, but these days who has the resources and time to present a different Bach cantata every Sunday?

      • DICKERSON3870
        July 26, 2011, 10:30 pm

        RE: “…but these days who has the resources and time to present a different Bach cantata every Sunday?” ~ Mooser

        ANSWER: Hedge fund managers earning* more than a billion dollars per year and paying federal income taxes on it at a rate of 15%!
        * Actually, it is more like the mob taking the “skim” from Las Vegas casinos back in the early days.
        Skimming (casinos) – link to en.wikipedia.org

  29. Elliot
    July 23, 2011, 10:44 pm

    I’ve visited several of the links provided in the above postings and other articles. I did searches for “zionist” “zionism” “Israel” “Palestine” in the 1000 page manifesto (google translation – my Norwegian ain’t that great) and came up with next to nothing.
    Sure, Breivik is an Islamophobe and yes, predictably the Israeli media (including the venerable Haaretz) jumped on this, assuming the murderer was a radical Muslim, and yes, we need to be deeply concerned about homegrown, rightwing, Islamophobe extremists….but I’d like to more substantive documentation to justify the article’s headline and the strong report it received from many here.
    Alex, would you define “right-wing Zionism” as distinct from “mainstream Zionism” or “liberal Zionism” with regard to support for mass murder of one’s countrymen?
    And, as bad as the generic settlers are, this is far, far worse. Not every settler is a Baruch Goldstein.

    • annie
      July 23, 2011, 11:04 pm

      elliot, this is from max’s new post

      Breivik and other members of Europe’s new extreme right are fixated on the fear of the “demographic Jihad,” or being out-populated by overly fertile Muslim immigrants. They see themselves as Crusader warriors fighting a racial/religious holy war to preserve Western Civilization. Thus they turn for inspiration to Israel, the only ethnocracy in the world, a country that substantially bases its policies towards the Palestinians on what its leaders call “demographic considerations.” This is why Israeli flags invariably fly above black-masked English Defense League mobs, and why Geert Wilders, the most prominent Islamophobic politician in the world, routinely travels to Israel to demand the forced transfer of Palestinians.

      they are extremist ethnic nationalists. the terrorist defined himself as a ‘cultural conservative’. from wiki :In the United States, the term cultural conservative has increasingly been used as a replacement for the terms Christian right or religious right. In the US, the term cultural conservative may imply a conservative position in the culture wars.

      not sure if that is how alex would answer the question but there is definitely an alignment between rightists extremists.

      one more thing, he stated his favorite politician was geert wilders, a rtwg zionist advocate.

      • annie
        July 23, 2011, 11:21 pm

        this is from richard silverstein Breivik, Rightist Mass Murderer, ‘Atlas Shrugged’ Contributor

        other links embedded:

        Norwegian bloggers are reporting that Breivik is the author of a blog called Fjordman and that he’s guest blogged for Atlas Shrugs, Jihad Watch and Gates of Vienna “for years.” As Breivik, he publicly praised one of her posts. Elise Hendrick has translated a passage from Realisten which confirms that Fjordman and Breivik are one and the same:

        According to his own statements, Anders Behring Breivik previously operated the blog ‘Fjordman’, and later wrote for many years under the pseudonym Fjordman for the anti-Muslim and Zionist blogs Gates of Vienna and Jihad Watch.

        In fact, an intrepid friend of Elise’s has created a web page with the “collected works” of the miraculous Fjordman.

      • Elliot
        July 24, 2011, 5:13 pm

        Annie,
        If I were a Muslim, Norwegian Labor Party member, or, pretty much any reasonable group, I’d say: get in line!
        This murderer spewed out mounds of diatribe. It’s not fair for anti-Zionists to claim him as their own.
        If I were a liberal Zionist, say, a Jerome Slater, I would be offended by the linkage the headline makes. And rightfully so.

      • annie
        July 24, 2011, 5:40 pm

        It’s not fair for anti-Zionists to claim him as their own.

        not sure what that means elliot.

        If I were a liberal Zionist, say, a Jerome Slater, I would be offended by the linkage the headline make

        well, you can ask him. my impression of self identified liberal zionists is they make a definite distinction between themselves and rightwingers (the headline). i don’t put slater in the same category as likud and shas and any ol run of the mil islamophobe or atlas shugs or LGF etc etc.

        i’d put him in a category of bradley burston. i think the headline is very clear. rightwing zionism is..extremist. i don’t think of slater as an extremist.

      • annie
        July 24, 2011, 5:51 pm

        another thing, the ‘nexus’ as i see it is extremist ethnic nationalism. all these european groups he aligns himself with are ethnic nationalists and they like israel and zionism because of it’s ethnic nationalism. rightwingers in israel like and embrace other ethnic nationalist for the same reason they like christian zionists, because they will apparently like anyone who emboldens israel’s jewish character regardless how freaky they are (like glen beck). and that extreme zionist element has been at the forefront of islamophobia from day one as i see it, if not the founders of the campaign.

      • Elliot
        July 24, 2011, 8:33 pm

        that nexus makes sense to me too. Let’s change the headline too: “The Norway massacre and the nexus of Islamophobia and other forms of right wing hatred”. But that would be redundant. I’m not sure what we’ve learned, except what we know already: the murderer was an extreme rightwinger, who wants to go take us back to the good old days when Europe belonged to Europeans (whatever that means).

      • Mooser
        July 24, 2011, 10:41 pm

        ” i don’t think of slater as an extremist.”

        Definitely not. Slater is a nose-holder, all the way.

    • Bumblebye
      July 23, 2011, 11:37 pm

      Hers’s a post Silverstein linked to, on why Israel should be supported, written under Breiviks pseudonym “Fjordman”:
      link to brusselsjournal.com

    • annie
      July 23, 2011, 11:49 pm

      here’s Why Europeans Should Support Israel @ brussels journal. by his blogger name Fjordman.

  30. PissedOffAmerican
    July 23, 2011, 11:33 pm

    “And, as bad as the generic settlers are, this is far, far worse. Not every settler is a Baruch Goldstein”

    Personally, I happen to believe that the act of dumping raw sewage on a village of your neighbors telegraphs a fanaticism and hatred that parrallels that of this Norwegian wacko. Granted, the mayhem is less hienious in human cost, but, no less indicative of blind hatred fueled by fanaticism.

    Are settlers, as a whole, on the same level of insanity as this latest wackjob? Of course not. But will their collective hatreds result in the deaths of far more than eighty Palestinian children as time rolls on, and they expand ever outwards in their quest for a bigger and bigger “Jewish State”? Undoubtedly.

    And truth be told, far more than eighty Palestinian children have died as a direct result of Israel’s blockade, to say nothing about those that have died due to Israeli military adventures, crimes, and atrocities.

    And the number eighty pretty much pales in the face of our own tally of Iraqi children, murdered by our policies. 500,000 by the sanctions alone, if Lancet is to be deemed credible. Who knows how many have died during the two gulf wars and the resultant internal turmoil our occupation has caused?

    This guy, run amok, is not near as dangerous as a nation run amok.

    • Mooser
      July 24, 2011, 10:44 pm

      “Not every settler is a Baruch Goldstein”

      From that you could throw up.

      • Mooser
        July 25, 2011, 11:15 am

        I wish I knew what I was trying to say when I wrote that yesterday!

  31. American
    July 24, 2011, 12:21 am

    The perfect storm–zionist and the religious and fascist right wing of the world– the marriage made in hell.
    And it will probably get worse.

    Zionist USA & Israel Inc. has really, really kicked up all it’s activities (not talking about this in Norway)…they have burned thru millions taking every Mayor, Governor and even every minor grassroots officials they could find on tours of Israel the past several months. Goggle any Governor and you will see almost all of them have been in Israel the past month courtesy of AIPAC “educational” wing.
    They are in overdrive…have the feeling it’s all aimed at creating pressure from grassroots on Obama re Palestine-UN….the zio activity level is at all time high in every nook and cranny of the US.

    I hadn’t thought of Daniel Pipes in a while, but back when he was with the “Peace Institute” I actually called the Institute and asked basically if they were out of their minds having this man associated with them—the PR person I spoke to told me they had no say in it, that he had been appointed by Bush—but that he would not be with them long.
    She said it like she was sympathetic to what I was saying and also relieved herself that he would be gone soon.

    We’re gonna have a war over who owns America, Americans or the Zionist & Israel……”A defender of racial profiling of Arab-Americans (CNN American Morning, 11/18/02), Pipes has also warned (American Jewish Congress, 10/21/01) that “the presence, and increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims” entail “true dangers” for American Jews……and I say Bring It On..it’s way past due.

  32. American
    July 24, 2011, 1:15 am

    Immediately after 911 we were deluged with ‘Eurabia’ by the usual suspects. We must hate Muslims because they might lessen Jewish power, particularly in the US, that’s the real existential fear….. “the presence, and increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims” entail “true dangers” for American Jews.”..Pipes

    I remember the first book titled ‘Eurabia’ featured on Laura Rozens site (and why I quit reading her) and I remember the non stop ‘Europeans are all anti semites’ and “Old Europe” hasbara, as in we need to give up our Europe alliances and form new ones with ‘emerging countries, meaning India who is friendly to Israel, the anti Muslim cartoon by the friend of Pipes in Denmark and so on—I am sure most of us could list dozens and dozens of these activities and propaganda put out following 911 mostly by well known zionist …but it would take days if not weeks or months to list every little drip, drip, drip of zionist poison spread in the US and other parts of the world concerning Muslims and Islam.

    Amazon.com: Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis (9780838640777): Ye’or Bat …
    http://www.amazon.com/Eurabia-Euro-Arab-Axis-Yeor…/083864077X – CachedYou +1’d this publicly. Undo
    This book is about the transformation of Europe into ‘Eurabia’, a cultural and political appendage of the Arab/Muslim world. Eurabia is fundamentally …

    Eurabia – Europe’s Future? :: Middle East Forum
    link to meforum.org
    You +1’d this publicly. Undo
    Feb 7, 2005 – Bat Ye’or, a historian, has published groundbreaking works on minorities and ” dhimmitude” (their inferior status) under Islam, …

    Europe or Eurabia? :: Middle East Forum‎ – Feb 23, 2009
    Review of Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis :: Middle East Quarterly‎ – Feb 23, 2009

    link to youtube.com
    You +1’d this publicly. Undo
    45 sec – Jul 5, 2007 – Uploaded by Entsatzheerfuehrer
    A quick visualization about what’s going on in europe. Stop Islamization of Europe! Support Israel! Remember September 12, 1683!

    More videos for Eurabia »
    The Way We Live Now – Eurabia? – NYTimes.com
    link to nytimes.com – Add to iGoogle
    You +1’d this publicly. Undo
    Apr 4, 2004 – Behind the news about terrorism is a historic change: Muslim immigrants are filling Europe’s demographic void and reshaping its culture.

    French Jews Fleeing Eurabia
    Jan 4, 2010 – At least, that’s what the authors of the strange new genre of “Eurabia” literature want you to believe. Not all books of this alarmist …
    Europeans Fleeing Eurabia :: Daniel Pipes
    link to danielpipes.org – CachedSimilar
    You +1’d this publicly. Undo

    Oct 10, 2004 – The Miami Herald has an important article today, “French Jews Escape to United States,” by Elinor J. Brecher, giving example after example …
    Eurabia: the Euro-Arab axis – Google Books
    books.google.com › History › Europe › GeneralYou +1’d this publicly. Undo
    This provocative and disturbing book is about the transformation of Europe into “Eurabia.” a cultural and political appendage of the Arab/Muslim world

  33. MRW
    July 24, 2011, 2:14 am

    I’m listening to BBC right now. The Norwegian Police Chief (through BBC translator) said that Breivik has been effusive about his reasons for the killings–he’s talking up a storm–but that he didn’t want to reveal his reasons right now. That is was ‘clearly political’.

    Going to be interesting talks in the fundie zio churches tomorrow morning. This guy is one of theirs, writing and acting in their interests, ostensibly. If I lived in John Hagee’s town, I wouldn’t miss it for anything.

  34. MRW
    July 24, 2011, 2:19 am

    The hasbara crowd is out in droves on the blogs trying to sell the pap that Israel is a “peaceful and pluralistic society,” and would never have anything like Oslo happen in their country.

    Just unfuckingbelievable. They would do a lot better if they kept their g.d. mouths shut, if only for their hideous habit of making every catastrophe about them (Haiti, 9/11). On the other hand, it’s such a great opportunity to remind the world about the 2008 Gaza War.

    • dimadok
      July 24, 2011, 7:25 am

      Hello there. It is the original post who made the connection, and nobody in Israel hade made any comments comparing the murders.
      And shame on moderators here for soloing the use of this kind of language as long as it goes one way towards Israel.

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 7:32 am

        It is the original post who made the connection, and nobody in Israel hade made any comments comparing the murders.

        MRW made reference to the hasbara crowd you dolt, not Israel.

        Interstingly, it appears that Israel is one of thw few western states who have not condemned the murders.

        Very telling.

      • dimadok
        July 24, 2011, 8:34 am

        Israel condemns Oslo terror attacks –
        link to mfa.gov.il

        Israel expresses its shock at the revolting terror attacks in Oslo, which have taken the lives of innocent victims. Nothing at all can justify such wanton violence, and we condemn this brutal action with the utmost gravity.

        We stand in solidarity with the people and government of Norway in this hour of trial, and trust Norwegian authorities to bring to justice those responsible for this heinous crime.

        Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families. We send our condolences to the bereaved families, and our wishes for prompt recovery to the injured. We remain at the Government of Norway’s disposal for any assistance it may require.

        * * *

        President Shimon Peres sent a special condolence letter to the King of Norway and the Norwegian people.
         
        In the letter the President wrote: “The people of Israel are shocked and share the grief of the people of Norway on the despicable murder of innocent civilians and innocent youth. Our hearts are with the bereaved families who have lost that which is most dear to them. We pray for the speedy recovery of the wounded.”

        Who’s the dolt now?

      • Robert Werdine
        July 24, 2011, 9:10 am

        Good one, Dimadok. Thanks for the link.

      • Chaos4700
        July 24, 2011, 10:51 am

        Call me when Israel feels bad about brown children getting murdered.

      • Mooser
        July 24, 2011, 11:06 am

        I love a nice piece boilerplate, don’t you Dimmock?

      • dimadok
        July 24, 2011, 12:04 pm

        Well it serves the purpose of discussion and replies-what is the purpose of your response, may I ask?

      • Mooser
        July 24, 2011, 1:07 pm

        “what is the purpose of your response, may I ask?”

        Nope, you may not, and if you do, I would reply in the words of the great Putney Swope: “Shove it, clown!”

  35. Saleema
    July 24, 2011, 4:13 am

    Germany’s top Jewish leader also highlighted the need to fight extremism.

    “As a group that itself is always threatened by hatred, fanaticism and terrorism, we can identify particularly with the terrible loss of Norwegian society,” Dieter Graumann said, German news agency dapd reported.

    link to washingtonpost.com

    This really annoyed me. In practically every tragedy, why do certain people have to point out that they are the real, permanent victims?

    • richb
      July 24, 2011, 9:00 am

      The obsession on anti-Semitism proved to be worse than useless and indeed harmful. The Norwegian authorities focused on violent right wing anti-Semites. But, since Breivik belonged to a right-wing philosemitic movement it was largely ignored. The key predictor here is RIGHT WING. Add to fact the adjective anti-Semitic has become a wax nose, e.g. the proposal on DailyKos that any support of BDS or quotes from this web site are prima facie anti-Semitic and should be censored. On the other hand, right wingers are easy to find and define.

      This should be a time of introspection for liberal, Jewish, Zionists. Should you align with other liberals or other Zionists? If you continue to do the latter you have been warned that right wing Christian Zionism is violent and will probably turn on you sometime in the future when the oil runs out in the Middle East. (And don’t think this is limited to Europe, either.) Left Wing Christians are not the same threat not because they are by and large not Zionists but because they are not Right Wing. Many have wondered — including myself — why I was different from most other evangelical Christians. While the media portrays Breivik as a “fundamentalist” Christian that’s not his own self-description. He describes Christianity in social and not religious terms, even asking atheist Christians to join his movement. This is why you see the Roman Catholic Sean Hannity and the Mormon Glenn Beck as Zionists. What drives them is not their brand of Christianity but their brand of politics. It’s not the religion. It’s the politics. I didn’t fall for Zionism because I left right wing politics primarily because of the violence that is so tightly bound to right wing politics. If the lesson of the Holocaust is “never again” then the best application of that lesson is to focus on right wing groups. That’s where the violence comes from.

  36. dimadok
    July 24, 2011, 6:52 am

    Norway gun suspect ‘acted alone’

    link to bbc.co.uk

    Anyone to respond?

    • Shingo
      July 24, 2011, 6:55 am

      No he didn’t

      A second man has been arrested.

      link to thesun.co.uk

      Of course, they said Oswald acted alone too.

      • Chaos4700
        July 24, 2011, 10:52 am

        Good god. Are the hasbara crowd really that desperate? WHY? Why are they even commenting on this article in droves, if it has nothing to do with Israel…?

    • Bumblebye
      July 24, 2011, 8:30 am

      Yes, thank heavens he acted alone, does not seem part of a group. But, dim, it is the rabid foreign (ie non-Israeli) brand of Zionists that bolstered and approved his appalling belief system. The Big Q is: Would he have gone this far without such fervent approval by them?

  37. dimadok
    July 24, 2011, 7:41 am

    Ok, who is the second man? Is he the Mossad agent, AMAN operative, dormant Zionist cell ?

    • Shingo
      July 24, 2011, 8:36 am

      I don’t know. All I did was challenge your statement that the Norway gun suspect ‘acted alone’.

      • Chaos4700
        July 24, 2011, 10:53 am

        OK, now I’m curious. Why are the hasbara guys so desperate to inject their commentary in this? I actually didn’t think this had anything directly to do with Israel until I’ve taken notice that the Hasbara guys are EVERYWHERE and they’re telling all sorts of lies to cover up this case.

      • Bumblebye
        July 24, 2011, 11:21 am

        I guess they’re frightened that tomorrow Breivik *will* reference his zio-credentials by mentioning the September vote and his belief in the need to stop it succeeding.

      • Kate
        July 24, 2011, 11:11 am

        False alarm – it seems he did act alone.

        link to ynetnews.com

        Norwegian police freed several people who were briefly detained on Sunday after a raid prompted by attacks that have killed 93 people, a police lawyer told Reuters.

        “The people detained and brought in for questioning have been released. They were in no way linked to the case,” Anders Frydenberg said. Police are trying to see if the main suspect acted alone. Frydenberg said that no explosives were found in the raid on buildings in north east Oslo. (Reuters)

  38. davidsc
    July 24, 2011, 8:42 am

    Why are people so quick to implicate Zionism and fire up their conspiracy theories? Such people will twist anything to make it into a weapon to wield against Israel. The point is that this guy developed a hatred of Islam not out of the blue, but because of a uncontrollable fear of Islam and the impact it is having on European societies.
    A terrible act without question – the act of a fundamentalist and fundamentalism itself is the problem whatever its persuasion. Islam has some responsibility for this event. We witness the propensity of right winged extremists to take the law into their own hands, because Muslims around the world are not doing enough to clean up their own act and control the radical Islamic elements in their ranks who are pushing jihad at all costs.

    • Djinn
      July 24, 2011, 9:27 am

      Wow, it’s like Mondoweiss has it’s own Andrew Bolt, if a Muslim did its reasoned all Muslims are to blame, when definitely proved that no Muslim had anything to do with it, it is still the fault of Muslims as a whole. This thread has really brought out the worst.

      • Chaos4700
        July 24, 2011, 10:57 am

        My question is why are all these newcomers HERE? On this article?

        Who sent them here, now, and why?

      • MHughes976
        July 24, 2011, 11:41 am

        Reinforcements arrive at any weak spot, I suppose. Maybe they see the turmoil and, such is their dedication, rush to the point of danger without need of orders. My usual plan is to ignore them but their power to annoy is indeed enormous.
        The latest BBC report says that the police have raided a house, arrested four people and then released them without charge. How anticlimactic!
        My immediate idea is that this is an unusually well educated terrorist, evidently with some sort of management qualification. He has quite good knowledge of the English language and even of our most famous liberal philosopher, John Stuart Mill, whom he seems to have quoted on the power of ideas. If he did in fact have a support group he would have been clever enough to have kept it hidden, so that it will take time to dig out. If he did in fact have any contacts with Zionist organisations both sides would have taken care to make sure that there were no incriminating traces. He will take all opportunities offered for grandstanding and even if he makes startling admissions it will be for the purpose of spreading confusion and we should be careful about believing them.
        I think it’s unlikely that there’ll be a dramatic uncovering of a plot, so we’ll suffer that old sense of anticlimax once or twice as an incredibly bad action gets punished with an inadequate-seeming 21-year prison sentence.
        Ideas are at the heart of the matter, though, as Mill says. That day to day battle of good ideas against bad ones.

      • Djinn
        July 24, 2011, 12:02 pm

        Many probably lurked for a long time before ever posting, I did. Can’t remember which topic I first posted on but likely it was one that is highly debated. Might as well ask why *this* thread has nearly 200 replies while others, even the contentious ones rarely top 100. Maybe there’s some other reason but I can’t criticise the lack of evidenced based reporting and bemoan media speculation if I do it myself.

      • Djinn
        July 24, 2011, 12:14 pm

        Many many Norwegians (certainly of his age) have an excellent command of English, as for any education I’ll believe you’ll find throughout history, that those who resort to political violence/terrorism/whatever you want to call it, have been educated people. Usually they have education levels/qualifications above the median.

      • MHughes976
        July 24, 2011, 3:56 pm

        Thankyou, djinn, those points are well taken. I have no desire to put you back in your bottle.

      • dimadok
        July 24, 2011, 7:15 pm

        My name is Legion: for we are many.
        Get real Chaos4700 and smell the roses. It is the blatant accusation that brought us here.

      • Taxi
        July 24, 2011, 10:52 pm

        Nobody TRUSTS what israelis have to say ANYMORE. Ya think travelers are willing to share a bunk with an israeli citizen after the New Zealand and Dubai passport theft debacle?

        Everyone knows that israelis steal international passports, steal Palestinian land, steal innocent human lives.

        How does THIS belladonna flower smell to you dimdok?

      • annie
        July 24, 2011, 11:17 pm

        well, not all israelis taxi. i have shared bunks with israelis in nepal and mexico. i would do it again. not every israeli is the massad. if i get good vibes from someone i am more likely to trust them than not, but then again i am very suspicious. it doesn’t take much for me to not trust someone. i’ve met some very cool israelis, very cool. one begged me to lobby obama to DO SOMETHING and she was a professional working woman, not radical in the least. there are many normal israelis who just want all this over already and do not like the settlers. really, there are. i’m not just talking activist, just regular people. they exist, they are real and i feel for them. they didn’t move to israel to make a problem. there are idealists there who are more then willing to compromise. unfortunately there voices are drowned out.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 12:04 am

        It is the blatant accusation that brought us here.

        No dimadok,

        What brought you hasbrats here was panic over the fact taht the second biggest terrorirst attack in European history was perpetrated by someone who was celebrated and held up as a shining light by your loudest pundists, and now you’re in fear over the fact that this is shinig yet another light on Zionism,

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 12:49 am

        I’ve met some very cool israelis, very cool.

        Ditto Annie,

        I know some wonderful Israelis. The guy and his wife that owns my favourite health food shop are wonderful, kind and generous to a fault. They always give me generous discounts on what I buy there and every time I visit with my son, they are offering me something as a gift for him.

      • Taxi
        July 25, 2011, 1:04 am

        annie,
        I didn’t say ALL israelis and my reference was regarding the world’s current ‘perception’ of israelis: racist occupiers, land thieves, passport thieves, human organ traders and political assassins. This is fact and it is israel’s in-yer-face crimes that have led the international community to this negative perception. Yeah that’s right: israelis now are as popular as the mullahs of Iran.

        I don’t get the ‘cool’ israeli thing, annie. I personally don’t consider people who willfully live off other people’s backs and lands to be cool in any measure. I consider all european israelis as settlers and I consider Historic Palestine as legitimate Arab land that was violently usurped by europeans (I dont care what religion these usurpers are!).

        During the height of South Africa’s Apartheid, mainstream British TV was putting out stuff like this:

        And for good reason.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 3:20 am

        Good point Taxi.

    • annie
      July 24, 2011, 9:56 am

      Islam has some responsibility for this event. We witness the propensity of right winged extremists to take the law into their own hands, because Muslims around the world are not doing enough to clean up their own act

      using this same logic, do you also think judaism has some responsibility for nazi crimes against humanity?

      • davidsc
        July 25, 2011, 5:21 am

        The Jews are the passive recipients of hatred; radical Muslims are the active proponents of hatred. Hardly the same logic.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 6:27 am

        The Jews are the passive recipients of hatred

        Is that supposed to be funny or are you out of your Ziocaine addicted friggin mind davidsc?

        Israel drove 800,000 Palestinians from their land and stoel it from udner them 30 years before radical Islam appeared anywhere on the scene in Palestine.

      • Chaos4700
        July 25, 2011, 9:38 am

        “Passive?” You know, this whole bullshit where you can slaughter HUNDREDS of children in Gaza and treat demolish whole neighborhoods in Beirut and still consider yourself “passive” is a joke.

        History books are going to put the Nazi flag on one page, and the Israeli flag on the next. You’re one of the same class of hostile, ethnocentric, murderous nations.

    • eljay
      July 24, 2011, 10:14 am

      >> Islam has some responsibility for this event. We witness the propensity of right winged extremists to take the law into their own hands, because Muslims around the world are not doing enough to clean up their own act and control the radical Islamic elements in their ranks who are pushing jihad at all costs.

      This understanding of yours – that right-wing extremists are permitted to destroy and kill at random whenever some identified group is not controlling the radical elements in their ranks – does it apply in all situations? Or only to extremists who kill Muslims (or Muslim “sympathizers”)?

      For example, are extremists permitted to randomly kill:
      – Jews (and their “sympathizers”) because Jews around the world aren’t doing enough to control radical elements in their ranks (Zionists) who are pushing for “Greater Israel” at all costs?
      – Americans (and their “sympathizers”) because Americans around the world aren’t doing enough to control radical elements in their ranks (neo-cons) who are pushing American hegemony at all costs?

    • seafoid
      July 24, 2011, 10:33 am

      Israel is a factory for the manufacture of hatred of Islam.
      Zionists don’t understand Islam . They don’t understand history . They don’t understand politics.

      • dimadok
        July 24, 2011, 7:19 pm

        link to en.wikipedia.org

        So, seafoid, we are very stupid bunch with extreme survival skills.
        Interesting, how many Arab scholars study Zionism or Jewish history, since in every university in Israel there are plenty of people who do that. And how many Jewish history museums are opened in Muslim world?

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 10:28 pm

        Muslim supporters of Israel

        Just as there are Jewish supporters of Islam. What’s your point?

        And how many Jewish history museums are opened in Muslim world?

        Let’s see how open the Muserum of tolerance, build on a Muslim burial site, is open to the Muslim world.

    • mig
      July 24, 2011, 11:06 am

      davidsc :

      “The point is that this guy developed a hatred of Islam not out of the blue, but because of a uncontrollable fear of Islam and the impact it is having on European societies.”

      ++++ When communism ended at lagre, someone saw needed to create new “enemy”….so target changed to muslims and muslim countrys. We can hear statements like this allmost daily bases in media. Fear can come through natural way, or it has been ranted so much by certain circles that people start believing such a fear exists.

      “A terrible act without question – the act of a fundamentalist and fundamentalism itself is the problem whatever its persuasion. ”

      ++++ I agree totally.

      ” Islam has some responsibility for this event.”

      ++++ I dont see it like that.

      “We witness the propensity of right winged extremists to take the law into their own hands, because Muslims around the world are not doing enough to clean up their own act and control the radical Islamic elements in their ranks who are pushing jihad at all costs.”

      ++++ And where this Jihad is coming from and why ?

    • Mooser
      July 24, 2011, 11:12 am

      “Islam has some responsibility for this event.”

      Ah, of course! Why on earth didn’t I see that right away? Thanks for opening my eyes!

    • Cliff
      July 24, 2011, 12:52 pm

      Davidsc, the shooter was pro-Israel and wrote explicitly about his views.

      The camp that he shot up, had members attending a workshop on the Israel-Palestine issue. It was characterized by far-right websites like PajamasMedia, as being “pro-Hamas/Palestinian” and anti-Israel.

      Israel was not his primary issue, but it’s an outright lie to say he wasn’t within the nexus of anti-Arab/Palestinian views of Zionism. He saw Zionism and Israel as an ally against Islam.

      And tell us what Islam is going to Europe? The people in Islamic societies are the ones suffering the most from Islamic terrorism. Not us here in the West.

      Furthermore, why don’t you apply that standard to yourself? How powerful are we to stop the military-industrial-complex? We have our own sense of powerlessness and ineffectiveness against the wealthy and powerful; against the institutional factors that shape our domestic and foreign policy.

      In fact, this guy shot up a bunch of people because he couldn’t change the system. Did you stop and think that clearly people do not share his hateful views?

      You are also presenting all Muslims as one monolithic entity. There are a billion Muslims. Most live in Asia.

      Islamophobes focus solely on the religious variable and not on the geopolitical variable.

    • Robert Werdine
      July 24, 2011, 3:47 pm

      Davidsc,

      Said you:

      “A terrible act without question – the act of a fundamentalist and fundamentalism itself is the problem whatever its persuasion.

      No arguing with that.

      “Islam has some responsibility for this event. We witness the propensity of right winged extremists to take the law into their own hands, because Muslims around the world are not doing enough to clean up their own act and control the radical Islamic elements in their ranks who are pushing jihad at all costs.”

      I wonder if it occurs to you what an utterly ludicrous statement this is. It would be interesting to know just what responsibility “Islam” has for this event. Islam, like any religion, is a code of moral governance, whose sayings, teachings, and pronouncements have been debated and quarreled about from within since its inception.

      Now, if you want to argue about the proliferation of Islamic Salafist groups like Hamas, Al-Queda, and others who are blackening and perverting the name of Islam in acts of fraud, murder, oppression, and lawlessness, I’ll be happy to argue that right along side you. If you think that the issue of reform within Islam is important, and that there ought to be a more rigorous debate and tolerance within, I’ll argue that too.

      But that is not the argument you are making here. Blaming “Islam” ignores the cultural, political, and geographical variables that contribute to the creation of such movements and problems within. Its not all about “Islam.” Scour the suras of the Qur’an for a justification of Hamas and Al-Queda suicide murderers, for example, and you will look in vain.

      Indeed, what makes your argument even more peculiar is that Breivik is not even a Muslim extremist. He was an anti-Muslim extremist. That would infer that “Islam” was complicit in his crime to the extent that he hated it. Is this really the argument you want to posit here? That it was the “uncontrollable fear of Islam and the impact it is having on European societies” that provoked this sick individual to outrage and mass murder, and that if only Muslims around the world were doing more to “clean up their own act,” that this crime could have been averted?

      Your willingness to blame “Islam” for this ghastly crime, where it had no discernible role except the perpetrator’s hatred of it, marks you as either a) hostile toward Islam, or b) ignorant of Islam. For fairness sake, since I am unaquainted with you, I will reserve judgment on the former suggestion, leaving us, alas, with the unhappy alternative.

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 7:26 pm

        Good post Robert,

        Sadly the NYT is leading with the argument that if the Norway bombings had no connection to Islamic extremsits, al Qaeda are still to blame becasue Islamic terrorism isnires non Islamic terrorists to mimicking Al Qaeda’s brutality and multiple attacks.

        The morons at the New America Foundation in Washington are insisting that befor AQ came along, nobody would have ever thought of using fertilizer to make a massive bomb, let alone bombing giovernment buildings.

      • Mooser
        July 24, 2011, 8:53 pm

        “Werdine” try to pick one identity, and stick to it, huh? You did the “I’m a Muslim, too” schtick when you first got here, and promptly got busted. Do you think everyone has forgotten already?

      • Robert Werdine
        July 25, 2011, 10:58 am

        “Busted?” Oh, please.

        You are free to slander and impugn my religious identity to your hateful little heart’s content, so have at and make a fool of yourself.

        I am a Lebanese Arab and a Muslim, and I think I’m going to do what I thought of doing a while ago: send the editors of this blog, via mail, mine and my mother’s birth certificates, showing my mother’s maiden name (Eidy) and her mother’s maiden name (Mohammed).

        You may then be able to determine whether these names are Jewish, or something else. Lithuanian, perhaps.

        Phil and Adam have a right, I think, to know whether someone is misrepresenting himself on their blog.

      • Cliff
        July 25, 2011, 11:21 am

        You are not Lebanese Arab or Muslim. You’ve been here before and spewed the same exact Zionist windbaggery under the moniker of ‘Michael LeFavour’.

        In both cases, you’ve pretended to be an ‘indigenous people’. In the latter, Native American. Now, apparently you’re an Arab (and Muslim? LOL) who went from Chomsky to Efraim Karsh.

        You’re a sockpuppet and by definition, a liar.

        Just because you made one reasonable, sane post (a record for you) above, does not change the fact that at your core, you’re just a troll trying to ‘point-score’ on this blog using ethno-credentials to back up your garbage.

      • Mooser
        July 25, 2011, 11:22 am

        “Phil and Adam have a right, I think, to know whether someone is misrepresenting himself on their blog.”

        You betcha, Robert-al Werdina! That’s why I sent them photographs proving I am a 1500 pound ungulate, with palmate antlers spanning a magnificent six feet or more!

      • Robert Werdine
        July 25, 2011, 1:31 pm

        Blah, blah, blah. Slander, slander, slander.

        “ethno-credentials?”

        Oh, for shame.

        You know, Cliff, this twisted, paranoid conviction of yours that I am Michael Lefavour is the most hilarious slander I have ever been subject to.

      • Cliff
        July 25, 2011, 4:29 pm

        It’s not twisted, it’s straight-forward. You’re a hack and a liar. No fancy verbose filibuster needed.

        You must be subjected to a lot of ‘slander’ if you find mine to be particularly funny.

        Then again, I suppose with all your idiotic ‘identities’ and phony biographies, you must have not picked your audiences well! Maybe you should consider something off-off-off-off-off-broadway.

      • Taxi
        July 25, 2011, 5:18 pm

        I know what you mean Werdine. I mean you being a young man from Bint Jbail, mistaken for Michael Lefavour – I mean really the bizarre and “hilarious” comparison!

      • Robert Werdine
        July 25, 2011, 6:10 pm

        I never said i was born in Bint J’bail. My great grandfather, Sharif Mohammed was.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 7:51 pm

        You;re right Robert.

        If we’re giong to point out your lies, we should be accurate which lies we are pointing out.

      • Taxi
        July 26, 2011, 12:20 am

        I got a better idea Werdine.

        Why don’t I go to Bint Jbail myself and confirm your info – I’m gonna be going that neck-o-woods in the very near future.

        I’m serious dude – I’ll do it. It’ll be a pleasure to visit Bint Jbail and meet some of your family members.

        Hey mondo folks come on don’t laugh! I’m really serious – and it’s true I’m taking a trip to the middle east in a few weeks. I really can do this Bint Jbail thing AND I really really really really want to.

      • Robert Werdine
        July 27, 2011, 2:45 pm

        In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful, If I am to be punished for some foul transgression, please, O Allah, let the punishment not be a vacation for two to Bint J’bail with Taxi! Anything but that!

      • Taxi
        July 27, 2011, 3:37 pm

        I’m still gonna down Bint Jbail and seek your family members out.

        Can hardly wait.

        Will keep everyone posted.

      • annie
        July 27, 2011, 4:13 pm

        please do!

      • Taxi
        July 27, 2011, 7:44 pm

        Uhuh – will do – all in good time.

        I must say, I feel a little rejected that Werdine won’t accompany me. I thought he could show me some interesting sites, introduce me to some of his family members, neighbors, you know, bore me to tears with his longwinded convolutions about war and peace, the golden age of zionism that Arabs like him are inspired by.

        I gotta coupla months before I’m due to take my trip – maybe I can woo him and change his mind in the meantime. Going dutch of course if he agrees.

      • Robert Werdine
        July 27, 2011, 7:57 pm

        Yes, please do.

        If you are going to Lebanon, you might have better luck searching out my maternal ancestral roots in Machghara, from where the Eidy family emigrated south to Bint J’bail, before the family came to America, though some, I am told, later went to Jdaide. Machghara, a small town that doesn’t appear on many maps of Lebanon, is in west Bekka just due east of Jezzine. I would be most interested to find out if there are any left there or in Bint J’bail. If so, I would like to make contact with them.

        Also, when you go to Bint J’bail, my cousins, the Dabagias, are curious to know if there are any family of theirs still living there as well.

        Have a nice trip. Y’allah! Y’allah!

      • Taxi
        July 28, 2011, 8:22 am

        “Y’allah y’allah” (fav idf cattle-herding slang).

        Wow so you’ve ‘operated’ in Bekaa too Werdine. Interesting. It’s actually called ‘Bekaa’ by the way.

        Y’allh y’allah your pants are still on fire.

      • Robert Werdine
        July 28, 2011, 2:45 pm

        You wish. I suppose someday you will tire of this ludicrously paranoid slander of yours, but I suppose that time is not yet.

      • Taxi
        July 28, 2011, 3:56 pm

        No dear. I don’t wish. I will be in Bint Jbail soon.

        Enjoy your nervous laughter in the meantime.

      • Robert Werdine
        July 28, 2011, 8:07 pm

        “I will be in Bint J’bail soon”

        Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

        “nervous laughter?”

        Oh, please. I often read posts on this blog and wonder of i am entering an alternative universe where up is down, and so forth, and where bloggers here who lionize terrorist groups and hysterically malign pluralistic democracies, all in the name of “justice” and “human rights.”

        It also seems to induce the kind of meglomaniacal dementia reflected in your post above. Do you really imagine you have something that will threaten me in some way, or that your travel plans make me “nervous?” Do you really take yourself and this insipid crusade to “expose” me that seriously? Do you suffer from a want of attention?

        There are certain facts you took stock of; it’s about time. My real name is Robert Werdine. I was really born in Michigan City Indiana. I really have a mother whose maiden name really is Eidy, and whose mother’s maiden name really is Mohammed. My maternal ancestors really are Lebanese Arab and Shiite Muslim, and I was raised a Muslim.

        These are facts, immovable, unchangeable, immutable, and incontrovertable. They are what they are. If you have facts that contradict or disprove what i have said, then by all means produce those facts forthwith.

        Tell you what. You really want to find out about me? Then call some of the Lebanese families in the Northwest Indiana area and do just that. Try the Dabagias and the Olweeans (also in Kalamazoo, Michigan), and any Eidys you can find, in Michigan City or Toledo, OH. They’ll confirm everything I’ve said. If that and mine and my mother’s birth certificate that I am sending next week to Phil is not enough, I’m not sure what I can tell you. I guess you’ll have to go on thinking I’m a Zionist agent like before.

      • Shingo
        July 28, 2011, 8:59 pm

        I often read posts on this blog and wonder of i am entering an alternative universe where up is down, and so forth, and where bloggers here who lionize terrorist groups and hysterically malign pluralistic democracies, all in the name of “justice” and “human rights.”

        I can see how you would have that experience, as someone who has come from the hermetically sealed Zionist environment, wheer anyone who looks at your Zionist heros the wrong way is branded a terrorist.

        My real name is Robert Werdine. I was really born in Michigan City Indiana. I really have a mother whose maiden name really is Eidy, and whose mother’s maiden name really is Mohammed. My maternal ancestors really are Lebanese Arab and Shiite Muslim, and I was raised a Muslim.

        Sure you were Robert, and your world was turned completely upside down when you read the Islapmophic ramblings of Bernard Lewis, who opened your eyes and introduced you to Ziocaine.

        I guess you’ll have to go on thinking I’m a Zionist agent like before.

        You’re out very own Walid Shoebat, who claims to be a former Palestinian terrorist and like you, his story turns out to be fake.

      • Taxi
        July 29, 2011, 8:56 am

        Werdine,

        You really think you’re fascinating don’t you? You think anyone around here really cares who you are? Yes I will be going to Bin Jbail, not just for you mister important liar – Bin Jbail was after all the site of israeli defeat in 2006. That’s why I’m going first and foremost – I wanna see some burned out Markavas baby!

      • Robert Werdine
        July 29, 2011, 9:01 am

        well Shingo, since every response I have posted here has been banned, I’ll say something here bound to please the moderator, and you:

        Thanks for the swell post, and keep up with your wonderful, beautiful, and spirited responses. I can just never get enough of them.

      • Chaos4700
        July 29, 2011, 9:06 am

        Sometimes, you can train a cat to use a toilet, apparently.

      • Robert Werdine
        July 29, 2011, 9:33 am

        Uh, Taxi, it’s Merkava, not “Markava.”

      • Taxi
        July 29, 2011, 10:46 am

        It’s Hamas actually not KHKHKHKHKHKHKHamas!

  39. kalithea
    July 24, 2011, 9:53 am

    This maniac frequented Zionist sites and was inspired by their Islamophobic rants and their supremacist propaganda.

  40. kalithea
    July 24, 2011, 10:21 am

    The FACT is that this guy frequented Zionist sites that continuously rail against Islam and build up wild scenarios of an Islamic takeover of Europe. HE WAS INSPIRED by this fearmongering supremacy and Islamophobic rants.

    In the comments section of ynet, an Israeli news media outlet, there was amongst other vile comments a comment that stated that the real tragedy is what happened to Amy Winehouse and not the tragedy in Norway. This comment speaks volumes about which life matters more and whose life is important and whose is irrelevant in the perception of supremacists.

    Zionism is spreading fear and loathing of Muslims and inspiring individuals to crusades of terror against Muslims and anyone who defends the rights of Muslims as in the case of Palestinians.

  41. Chaos4700
    July 24, 2011, 10:56 am

    Remind me again why we’re supposed to believe this has nothing directly to do with Israel? I used to, until this page breached over 100 comments and a lot of the discussion mostly being prompted by pro-Israel denialists who are trying to control perception of this attack?

    Why? If this had nothing to do with Israel — if it were even EXACTLY what the article describes, as a symptom of general hatred rather than some sort of intervention — WHY are these clowns even here? This is the sort of effort Zionists usually spend only to hide what the IDF is doing.

    • Mooser
      July 24, 2011, 1:22 pm

      Well, we’ll just have to wait and see what this week brings us in the way of information.

      • kapok
        July 24, 2011, 8:29 pm

        Info’s coming. The wretch is singing like a boid. He’ll be a star until he disappears into the prison system.

    • annie
      July 24, 2011, 1:31 pm

      my instinct tells me yesterday, being shabbat, put a dent on israel’s hasbara, plus there’s the emergency/rush factor wrt talking pts and how to distract. so we’re getting a delayed response today w/an over abundance of spamming like posts designed to litter up the thread w/a bunch of crap to obscure what is becoming increasingly obvious to everyone.

  42. kalithea
    July 24, 2011, 2:42 pm

    Now you just know that Zionists Hagee, Robertson and Ovadia are chomping on the bit to declare that Norway was punished by an inspired heroic Christian crusader for it’s support for Palestinians, Palestinian reconciliation and a Palestinian state.

  43. davidsc
    July 24, 2011, 5:47 pm

    One of the reasons I came in on this topic is that on MondoWeiss there has been scant recognition of the impact of radical Islam on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Plenty of anti-Zionist focus but not the whole debate. To really solve any conflict you won’t do that by bashing away on the one side without considering the other. This reflects an obvious bias amongst contributors here.

    • annie
      July 24, 2011, 5:56 pm

      bias? you mean for anti zionism vs zionism? yeah sure. i’m biased.

      • davidsc
        July 25, 2011, 5:56 am

        I speak of the kind of bias that defies rhyme or reason.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 6:42 am

        Correction, you speak with the kind of bias that defies rhyme or reason.

        After all, it requires the suspecion of rhyme or reason to justify mass murder, ethnic cleasing, land theft, collective punishment and still claim to be the victim.

      • davidsc
        July 25, 2011, 8:37 am

        I never said that I justified any of the things you mentioned. QED

      • annie
        July 25, 2011, 4:35 pm

        davidsc, let’s review your contention.

        scant recognition of the impact of radical Islam on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Plenty of anti-Zionist focus but not the whole debate. To really solve any conflict you won’t do that by bashing away on the one side without considering the other. This reflects an obvious bias amongst contributors here.

        first of all this is not fox news and we have no obligation to give equal time to both narratives. wrt targetting children i think i can speak for everyone saying it is horrific no matter who is doing it.

        so, let’s take a look at the ” Plenty of anti-Zionist focus” in contrast to “the impact of radical Islam”. on second thought, let’s not because that isn’t what this is really about. instead let’s take a look at “the impact of radical judaism” or better yet ” the impact of radical Zionism” because that is part of what’s at play here, radical zionism or radical ethnic nationalism which is something the killer and radical zionists have in common (radical ethnic nationalism).

        here’s the thing david, anyone who doesn’t live under a rock knows radical islam is something shoved down americans throats on a regular basis. we are fed a diet of ‘fear islam’ and if you don’t believe me try googling around. now try the same for ‘radical zionism’.

        iow this site provides an outlet not provided in other forums. it’s real, it exists and you’re here to criticize it and us. go away and find yourself a more ‘balanced’ place but chances are there are very few places on the internet that provide the ‘balance’ you are looking for.

        I speak of the kind of bias that defies rhyme or reason.

        we get it david, millions of people living for decades in oppression surrounded by and being targeted by one of the most militarized well funded armies on the planet is no biggie compared to radical islam. no rhyme or reason, uh hu. go stuff a sock in it david.

      • davidsc
        July 26, 2011, 8:42 am

        You need that kind of militarization to protect yourself from constant aggression as witnessed through the 67 and 73 Wars, Lebanon in 1982 and 2006, the First and Second Intifada etc. And I suppose you reckon that Israel attacked Gaza in 2009 just demonstrate that power. And I suppose that the residents of Sderot were meant just to sit their tight lipped while rockets rained down upon them over the last 10 years. Radical Islam is no toy – the hanging of an 8 year child the other day in Afghanistan shows their style.

    • Bumblebye
      July 24, 2011, 6:18 pm

      david, where do you think radical Islam came from? For decades, democratic movements were crushed in the Moslem world, with the connivance and participation of the ‘West’ who preferred dictators they could bribe! Especially after Iran nationalised the oil industry…
      And as for in the I/P conflict, when did any reasonable approach ever achieve anything positive from Israel for the Palestinians? In that instance, it doesn’t matter what they do, Israel will go ever onward with its goal of eliminating Palestine until it’s all Israel.

      • Shingo
        July 24, 2011, 10:24 pm

        For decades, democratic movements were crushed in the Moslem world, with the connivance and participation of the ‘West’ who preferred dictators they could bribe! Especially after Iran nationalised the oil industry…

        Add to that the fact that Hamas didn’t appear on the scene until the conflict was 30 years old. The PLO were secular.

        And let’s not forget that it was Israel that created Hamas.

      • davidsc
        July 25, 2011, 5:41 am

        Bumblebye, you need to go back a bit further than that to the time of Mohammed and the raid he led on the Jewish Banu Qurayza tribe to slaughter them because they wouldn’t support him.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 6:41 am

        Bumblebye, you need to go back a bit further than that to the time of Mohammed and the raid he led on the Jewish Banu Qurayza tribe to slaughter them because they wouldn’t support him.

        Why not go further back in time again and the genicide Joshua inflicted on the Canaanites as they took Jericho and Jerusalem slaughterning all before them – women and children included.

        Evidently, they didn’t evn pause to see if the Canaanites were prepare to convert.

      • davidsc
        July 25, 2011, 8:39 am

        The topic here is radical Islam not Bible history.

      • Chaos4700
        July 25, 2011, 9:35 am

        Because radical Islam and not Zionism is responsible for promoting the slaughter of children with firearms? That island in Norway looks a LOT more like Gaza than it looks like Saudi Arabia.

      • Cliff
        July 25, 2011, 4:38 pm

        You referenced a period of Islamic history, david. Why isn’t it fair to talk about things of a similar nature in the Torah or the Bible? Why just Islam?

        I agree that there is Islamic fundamentalism. I don’t agree you can blame Islamic radicalism as the chief cause for the shooter’s motivations.

        He didn’t even seek out Muslims. He killed people of, and associated with – a political party. He couldn’t get his way legitimately. He dehumanized them so much, they were a political ‘stunt’ to him.

        He was a self-professed anti-Muslim, anti-immigration proponent. His targets were tolerant and promoted immigration.

        In Germany, maybe it was a year or so ago – a pregnant Muslim woman was stabbed to death IN COURT, by a Russian immigrant to Germany. This guy was in court because he had verbally threatened her, accompanied by the use of racial slurs and bigotry.

        He killed her in court. Is it simply that people hate Islamic radicalism so much, that they in-turn hate all Muslims? Or do they equate the two?

        You are truly delusional if you think, the killer did not hate Islam in its entirety. He saw Islam as a political ideology and a monolith.

        Blaming the Islamic radicalism in the world, for his killing spree is a whitewash of the killers motivations. It’s cowardly. Apparently, to you – there is no such thing as anti-Arab or anti-Islamic hatred. It’s all a hatred of Islamic-radicalism.

        Have you even READ these people? They are infinitely more forthcoming than you are.

        Lazy on your part.

      • davidsc
        July 26, 2011, 8:52 am

        I DON’T blame Islamic radicalism as the chief cause for the shooter’s motivations. I say it is a major causal factor. As it seems every day we witness examples of Islamic radicalism gone crazy right across the Muslim world. The case of the the Russian guy who killed a Muslim woman in court could be matched by 1000 other examples of Muslim men defiling their own women. And who should I have read – al-Banna, Muhammad al-Ghazali, Ramadan or Sayyad Qutb?

    • Shingo
      July 24, 2011, 6:34 pm

      Radical Islam has nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

      That’s just another BS Hasbara talking point to deflect from the very real fact of land theft and occupation.

      To really solve any conflict you won’t do that by bashing away on the one side without considering the other.

      Would bashing both sides have resolved inte conflict in WWII?

      No. Get a life and grow up.

      • davidsc
        July 25, 2011, 5:33 am

        Shingo,
        The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has nothing to do with World War II and won’t be resolved in the same way. And obviously you think the Hamas charter is made up of mere words. I have a life and grew up some time ago; try sticking to the topic next time instead of letting your hate get the better of you.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 6:35 am

        davidsc,

        Please tell me you’re not serious by posting this histerial BS here.

        Where do you think you are? Some right wing David Horowtiz inspired blog where right wing Zio nutjobs like yourself will simply nod in agreement and your infatile BS? Do they really send you hasbrats out from your mother ship this green, naive and unprepared?

        And obviously you think the Hamas charter is made up of mere words.

        As usual, the Hamas Charter features among the posts from Israeli apologist, despite the fact that it contains a qualifier that forbids members harm to those who have not “borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings”
        ­
        No such qualifier is seen in the founding documents of organisati­ons like Likud, Shas and Betar all of which pledge the clearance of Palestinia­ns from at least the Jordan to the sea. The leader of Shas is well known for his pronouncem­ents calling for the “annihilat­ion of Arabs”.

        And unlike Hamas, Israel has succeeded in destroying Palestinin society and destroying whatever foundation there might have been of a Palestinian state, so they have a lot more than words to show for their effort.

        try sticking to the topic next time instead of letting your hate get the better of you.

        Everythign you stand for it hate. You’re a fascist, racist, ethnocentric biggot, and an apolgist for mass murder and partheid; and an typically stupid one at that.

        You’re way ahead of me when it comes to hatred.

      • mig
        July 25, 2011, 7:26 am

        Hamas charter has no effect in a way or another. Try Likud charter instead which has huge impact.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 7:39 am

        The Likud Charter is being fully implemented.

      • davidsc
        July 25, 2011, 8:44 am

        I should take my advice and stop to talking to you.

      • Taxi
        July 25, 2011, 10:24 am

        davidsc,

        Take your victim violin and your islamaphobia and shove it. Take your zionist Apartheid in both hands and shove that too.

      • Robert Werdine
        July 25, 2011, 10:36 am

        Davidsc,

        I agree with you that radical Islam plays a role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; it always has. I also agree with you that Hamas’ charter are not mere words; those words have been sanctified by the bloodiest of deeds, and continue to be. Salafist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbolloah have been the most prominent purveyors and abettors of the rejectionism that is currently at the heart of the conflict. Yet even before them, Arafat, and his predecessor, Haj amin al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem, along with the Muslim brotherhood, all spoke of Palestine as an Islamic Waqf, that was not to be soiled by the presence of infidels (i.e., Jews).

        Hamas and the other groups are a Palestinian offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and the Brotherhood has pursued Hamas’ objective of ejecting the Jews from Palestine and destroying Israel ( or the Yishuv, before 1948) ever since the founding of the group in the 1920’s. In 1938 the group declared that to eject the (400,000) Jews from Palestine was an “inescapable obligation on every Muslim.” Also, in 1948: “Jews are the historic enemies of Muslims and carry the greatest hatred for the nation of Muhammad.”

        The Brotherhood’s founder, Hassan al-Banna wrote: “In our souls Palestine occupies a spiritual holy place which is above abstract nationalist feelings. In it we have the blessed breeze of Jerusalem and the blessings of the Prophets and their disciples.”

        Hassan al-Banna also excoriated his fellow Muslims’ “love of life” over martyrdom in the service of jihad, which he praised as “the art of death.”

        The 1948 war, for example, was also viewed as a holy war by many Arabs. So yes, you are correct that radical Islam has also played a role in the conflict and still does. But to overemphasize this, I think, also ignores the extent to which this is also a conflict between two national movements over the same sacred territory. It also ignores the extent to which secular and religious leaders (and terrorists) have invoked the language of the Qur’an and jihad to mask their political agendas.

        I’m not quite sure, however, how the Prophet Mohammed’s dispute with the Banu-Quarayza tribe helps support your argument. The turf wars of the western Arabian tribes in the early 7th century were rather brutal affairs where treachery, double-dealing, and violence were all commonplace and well in the custom of the time. What happened to the Banu-Quarayza is not clear, though many were put to death and sold into slavery. They were not killed because “they would not support him” but because they aided and abetted the Prophet’s enemies Abu Sufayan and the Quaraish, who attacked him in Medina.

        After a failed siege by them, Mohammed then attacked the Banu-Quarayza for their treachery and betrayal, and things get fuzzy from there. Had Abu Sufayan and the Quaraish been victorious, it would have been Mohammed and the Muslims of Medina who would have been dispatched.

        Mohammed’s disputes and turf wars with the Jewish tribes of Banu-Nadhir, Banu-Quarayza, and Banu-Kainuka, have done much to put a lot of anti-Jewish arrows into the quivers of radical Islamists. But this is wrong. Mohammed’s disputes were with these tribes, who not only mocked him and Islam, but violently opposed it, not with Judaisim itself. The Jews were the “people of the Book” he said, and the Qur’an is as flattering a reflection of the Bible as anything ever written. The Qur’an’s monotheism, prophecy, faith, repentance, and Last Judgment, are all derived from the Hebrew Scriptures that the Prophet had absorbed and revered.

        In any event, judging the mores and customs of that time and place in the context of today is a bit misleading, and this episode has a dubious relevance to today’s problem with Radical Islam, and the particulars of the I/P conflict.

      • Mooser
        July 25, 2011, 11:29 am

        “I should take my advice and stop to talking to you.”

        You won’t, you can’t. You couldn’t leave here and not come back no matter how much you want to.

        Go ahead, chump, prove me wrong.

      • Shingo
        July 25, 2011, 7:30 pm

        I agree with you that radical Islam plays a role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; it always has.

        Without doubt, one of your most stupid and uninformed posts to date Robert, which is quite a feat.

        Hamas did not come into existence until the 1970’s, when Israel created them to offset the influence of the secular, Marxist PLO. In fact, Hamas were arch enemies of the PLO, which is why Israel gave them support and financed their introduction to Palestine in the 70’s/

        Secondly, how anyone with a brain can claim that Hezbollah are Salafist is truly mind boggling.  Not to mention the even more ludicrous claim that Hezbollah  are rejectionists (having been created after Israel’s wanton act of aggression when it invaded Lebanon in 1982), when the only  thing they rejected was Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon.

        Yet even before them, Arafat, and his predecessor, Haj amin al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem, along with the Muslim brotherhood, all spoke of Palestine as an Islamic Waqf, that was not to be soiled by the presence of infidels (i.e., Jews).

        Rubbish. First of all, a Waqf is refers to philanthropic endeavours, and furthermore, neither Arafat nor al-Husseini were Islamists or Salafists.

        As I mentiend, Hamas was practically created by Israel as a cats paw against the PLO precisely because Israel were well aware that they were enemies. Of course, the British destroyed any resistance to Zionist colonialist by the late 1930’s, but the Zionist militias were expelling Palestinians and destroying their villages in 1947, and were already at it by the time UN181 was voted on.

        In 1938 the group declared that to eject the (400,000) Jews from Palestine was an “inescapable obligation on every Muslim.”

        In 1937, Ben-Gurion declared that the Zionist plans was to seize all of Palestine and DID eject 750,000 Palestinians between 1947 and 1948.

        As for the Muslim Brotherhood, they didn’t even appear on the scene until the 1970’s, so the conflict had preceded for 30 years without the presence of any radical Islam.

        The 1948 war, for example, was also viewed as a holy war by many Arabs.

        Rubbish. The 1948 war took place in Palestine, with none of the forces making any attempt to cross into Israel, which would have been the case had they regarded it as a holy war.

        So no Robert, it is clearly false to suggest that radical Islam played in the conflict until much later. In fact, any part played by radical Islam has been a distraction and a conflation on the part of the Zionists to downplay the fact that this is entirely about territory.

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 26, 2011, 9:22 am

        “The Qur’an’s monotheism, prophecy, faith, repentance, and Last Judgment, are all derived from the Hebrew Scriptures that the Prophet had absorbed and revered. ”

        I thought you were pretending to be Muslim, Robert??? Even I, an atheist, know enough about Islam to know that Muslims believe that the Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad by the angel Jabril, and was not, in any way, the product of a creative act by Muhammad, such that Qur’an could not have been “derived” from any other source. You need to practice more if you are going to try to convince anyone…

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 26, 2011, 9:23 am

        “how anyone with a brain can claim that Hezbollah are Salafist is truly mind boggling.”

        It’s like those famous Protestant groups, the Jesuits and the Knights of Columbus.

      • Robert Werdine
        July 26, 2011, 3:29 pm

        Shingo,

        Said you: “Hamas did not come into existence until the 1970′s. Israel created them to offset the influence of the secular, Marxist PLO. In fact, Hamas were arch enemies of the PLO, which is why Israel gave them support and financed their introduction to Palestine in the 70′s”

        In the first place, Israel did not “create” Hamas. As Mitchell Bard has written:

        “Israel had nothing to do with the creation of Hamas. The organization grew out of the ideology and practice of the Islamic fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood movement that arose in Egypt in the 1920s.

        Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 as an Islamic Association by Sheikh Ahmad Yassin. Initially, the organization engaged primarily in social welfare activities and soon developed a reputation for improving the lives of Palestinians, particularly the refugees in the Gaza Strip.

        Though Hamas was committed from the outset to destroying Israel, it took the position that this was a goal for the future, and that the more immediate focus should be on winning the hearts and minds of the people through its charitable and educational activities. Its funding came primarily from Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

        The PLO was convinced that Israel was helping Hamas in the hope of triggering a civil war. Since Hamas did not engage in terror at first, Israel did not see it as a serious short-term threat, and some Israelis believed the rise of fundamentalism in Gaza would have the beneficial impact of weakening the PLO, and this is what ultimately happened.
        Hamas certainly didn’t believe it was being supported by Israel. As early as February 1988, the group put out a primer on how its members should behave if confronted by the Shin Bet. Several more instructional documents were distributed by Hamas to teach followers how to confront the Israelis and maintain secrecy.

        Israel’s assistance was more passive than active; that is, it did not interfere with Hamas activities or prevent funds from flowing into the organization from abroad. Israel also may have provided some funding to allow its security forces to infiltrate the organization. Meanwhile, Jordan was actively helping Hamas, with the aim of undermining the PLO and strengthening Jordanian influence in the territories.

        Though some Israelis were very concerned about Hamas before rioting began in December 1987, Israel was reluctant to interfere with an Islamic organization, fearing that it might trigger charges of violating the Palestinians’ freedom of religion. It was not until early in the intifada, when Hamas became actively involved in the violence, that the group began to be viewed as a potentially greater threat than the PLO. The turning point occurred in the summer of 1988 when Israel learned that Hamas was stockpiling arms to build an underground force and Hamas issued its covenant calling for the destruction of Israel. At this point it became clear that Hamas was not going to put off its jihad to liberate Palestine and was shifting its emphasis from charitable and educational activity to terrorism. Israel then began to crack down on Hamas and wiped out its entire command structure. Hamas has been waging a terror war against Israel ever since.”

        Said you: “Secondly, how anyone with a brain can claim that Hezbollah are Salafist is truly mind boggling. Not to mention the even more ludicrous claim that Hezbollah are rejectionists (having been created after Israel’s wanton act of aggression when it invaded Lebanon in 1982), when the only thing they rejected was Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon.”

        You are correct that Hezbollah is not a Salafist group, and I did not mean to say that they were; I should have said: “Salafist groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, along with Hezbollah.” You will notice that I did not identify Hezbollah as a Salafist group in my earlier post.

        The notion that Hezbollah is not rejectionist, however, is preposterous, and the notion that “the only thing they rejected was Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon” is even more so.

        This is not only underscored in everything this radical Islamist group says and does, but Sheik Ibrahim al-Amin issued Hezbollah’s manifesto in 1985 which said, among other things:

        “We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it
        glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.

        Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace
        agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

        We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the
        Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev’s and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.”

        Got that Shingo? “[O]ur struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.”

        Nothing rejectionist about this crowd, right? The destruction of Israel remains one of the core, primary objectives of the terrorist organization.

        Said you: “Rubbish. First of all, a Waqf is refers to philanthropic endeavours, and furthermore, neither Arafat nor al-Husseini were Islamists or Salafists.”

        I did not say that Arafat or the Mufti were Salafists. Both however viewed Palestine as a Waqf (sacred Islamic soil), as did most Arabs. As for Palestine not being so perceived, read Article 11 of the Hamas Charter:

        “The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Muslim generations till Judgement Day?

        This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Muslims have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Muslims consecrated these lands to Muslim generations till the Day of Judgement.”

        Said you: “Of course, the British destroyed any resistance to Zionist colonialist by the late 1930′s, but the Zionist militias were expelling Palestinians and destroying their villages in 1947, and were already at it by the time UN181 was voted on.”

        This seems to be your favorite fabrication, demolished though it was in our last exchange.

        “In 1937, Ben-Gurion declared that the Zionist plans was to seize all of Palestine and DID eject 750,000 Palestinians between 1947 and 1948.”

        This one, too.

        Said you: “As for the Muslim Brotherhood, they didn’t even appear on the scene until the 1970′s, so the conflict had proceeded for 30 years without the presence of any radical Islam.”

        This is incredible. So there was no radical Islam before the 1970’s? Where did you pull this gem from? Also, the Muslim Brotherhood was formed in 1928, not the 1970’s, and has had an active role in Palestinian politics since 1935, when ‘Abd al-Rahman al-Banna, the brother of Muslim Brotherhood founder Hasan al-Banna, established a branch there.

        The Brotherhood was prominent in the Arab Revolt, and by 1947 the Brotherhood had some 26 branches in Mandate Palestine, running to some 12,000-20,000 members. Hundreds of Muslim Brothers entered Palestine to fight alongside Palestinian militias in the 1948 War in March-April 1948 from Egypt, where they had been trained at Egyptian Army camps at Marsa Matruh and Hakstap. The Brothers launched attacks on Kfar-Darom on April 10, again on May 11-12, and attacked the Ramat-Rahel kibbutz south of Jerusalem on May 21 alongside the ALA. Nearly one-third of the May 15 Egyptian invasion force were drawn from among the Muslim Brothers.

        Said you: “Rubbish. The 1948 war took place in Palestine, with none of the forces making any attempt to cross into Israel, which would have been the case had they regarded it as a holy war.“

        First of all, as I have pointed out to you on at least two previous occasions, the Arab armies did indeed attack the areas of the Jewish-apportioned sections of Palestine. The ALA attacked Jewish held Malikya from Lebanon, the Syrians attacked Jewish held Mishmar Hayarden north of the Sea of Galilee, and Jewish-held Samakh to the south of the sea. The 6000 man Egyptian force pivoted at Rafah into a parallel two-pronged advance to the north, the eastern thrust slicing through Jewish–held areas of the Negev just north of Nirim, Gvulot, Tse’elim, Alumim, northward through Beersheba and Hebron to Jerusalem. The western thrust cut through Gaza to Isdud with Tel-Aviv as the objective, with a detachment peeling off eastward from Maidal to al-Faluja to Beit Jibrin in an attempt to link up with the eastward thrust and surround the Jewish encampments in the Negev.

        Secondly, the notion that Arabs did not regard the 1948 war as a jihad, is simply false.

        As King Ibn Saud said to Roosevelt in 1943, he was “prepared to receive anyone of any religion except (repeat, except) a Jew…Palestine…has been an Arab country since the dawn of history and…was never inhabited by the Jews for more than a period of time, during which their history in the land was full of murder and cruelty…[There is] religious hostility…between Muslims and Jews from the beginning of Islam which arose from the treacherous conduct of the Jews toward Islam and the Muslims and their prophet.”

        On November 2, 1947 the ‘ulema of Cairo’s A-Azhar University issued a fatwa pertaining to “the Jews,” condemning anyone consorting or dealing with Jews (“buying their produce”) as “a sinner and criminal…who will be regarded as an apostate to Islam, he will be separated from his spouse. It is prohibited to be in contact with him.”

        Also, it is worth noting that the Mufti’s most prominent Palestinian militia was named the Jaysh al-Jihad al-Muqaddas (“Army of the Holy War”).

        Benny Morris, who acknowledges that the 1948 War was a secular, nationalist conflict, also stresses the religious/jihadist element of the conflict:

        “The assault of 1947-1948 was an expression of the Islamic Arabs’ rejection of the west and its values as well as a reaction to what it saw as a European colonialist encroachment against sacred Islamic soil…The 1948 War, from the Arabs’ perspective, was a war of religion as much as, if not more than, a nationalist war over territory. Put another way, the territory was sacred: its violation by infidels was sufficient grounds for launching a holy war and its conquest or reconquest, a divinely ordained necessity.

        The evidence is abundant and clear that many, if not most, in the Arab world viewed the war essentially as a holy war. Indeed the battle was of such an order of holiness that in 1948 one Islamic jurist ruled that believers should forego the hajj and spend the money thus saved on the jihad in Palestine. In April 1948 the mufti of Egypt, Sheik Muhammad Mahwaif, issued a fatwa positing jihad in Palestine as a duty of all Muslims. The Jews, he said, intended “to take over all of the lands of Islam.” Martyrdom for Palestine conjured up, for Muslim Brothers, “the memories of the Battle of Badr…as well as early Islamic jihad for spreading Islam and Salah al-Din’s (Saldin’s) liberation of Palestine” from the crusaders. Jihad for Palestine was seen in prophetic-apocalyptic terms, as embodied in the hadith periodically quoted at the time, “The day of resurrection does not come until Muslims fight against Jews, until the Jews hide behind trees and stones and until the stones and trees shout out: ‘O Muslim there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’”

        The jihadi impulse underscored both popular and governmental responses in the Arab world to the UN partition resolution and was central to the mobilization of the “street” and the governments for the successive onslaughts of November-December 1947 and May-June 1948. The mosques, mullahs, and ‘ulema all played a pivotal role in the process.” (Benny Morris, “1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War,” pp.394-395)

        “So no Robert, it is clearly false to suggest that radical Islam played in the conflict until much later. In fact, any part played by radical Islam has been a distraction and a conflation on the part of the Zionists to downplay the fact that this is entirely about territory.”

        This is simply false. It is not a “distraction” or a “conflation” and the conflict is not “entirely about territory.” What an utterly ludicrous statement. The 1948 war was indeed viewed as a holy war by many from the very beginning, and radical Islamists were inciting hatred and violence against Jews in Palestine long before the war. The evidence and testimony attesting to this is simply overwhelming.

        I am still awaiting a response from you to my July 21 post on our last debate on the “A despairing conversation with an Arab friend at the Four Seasons” blog article where the shattered remnants of your July 18 post lie scattered about. Have at it.

      • Robert Werdine
        July 26, 2011, 6:58 pm

        Woody,

        Said you:

        “Even I, an atheist, know enough about Islam to know that Muslims believe that the Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad by the angel Jabril, and was not, in any way, the product of a creative act by Muhammad, such that Qur’an could not have been “derived” from any other source. You need to practice more if you are going to try to convince anyone…”

        It would seem that someone else needs more “practice.”

        The Qur’an accepts the divinity of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures.

        “He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat (Torah) and the Injeel (Christian Gospels) aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.” (Sura iii, 3).

        “And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel.” (Sura iii, 48)

        “And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah’s permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah’s permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.” (Sura iii, 49).

        “And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me. (Sura iii, 50)

        “Surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path. (Sura iii, 51)

        The Allah of the Qur’an is Yahvey. Allah is a contracted variant of al-Illah, an old Kaaba god. The Jews used Elohim. In the Muslim as in the Hebrew and Christian, God is a being of compassion and mercy but also of stern retribution, and has no gods beside Him. The Shema’ Yisrael of the Jewish ritual, affirming the unity and oneness of God, is reaffirmed in “There is no God but Allah.”

        From the Mishna and the halakah the Prophet derived many rituals of diet and hygiene, such as ceremonial purification before prayer. “O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.” (Sura v, 6)

        Mohammed adopted the Jewish institution of the Sabbath, marking Friday as the Muslim day of prayer.

        The Qur’an, like the Mosaic Law, forbids the eating the blood and flesh of swine, or dogs. “Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression.” (Sura v, 3)

        As the Rabbis of the Jews bade them to pray three times a day toward Jerusalem, prostrating themselves with their heads to the floor, Mohammed adapted this to Islamic prayer toward Mecca five times a day.

        Jewish and Muslim eschatology—devils, angels, Satan, hell, heaven, the resurrection, the Last Judgment—are virtually the same. Mohammed accepts the principal revelations: the Pentateuch to Moses, the Psalms to David, the Gospel to Jesus, and, of course, the Qur’an to Mohammed. The Prophet evinces agreement of the Qur’an with the Bible as evidence of his holy mission.

      • eljay
        July 26, 2011, 7:16 pm

        >> Jewish and Muslim eschatology—devils, angels, Satan, hell, heaven, the resurrection, the Last Judgment—are virtually the same. Mohammed accepts the principal revelations: the Pentateuch to Moses, the Psalms to David, the Gospel to Jesus, and, of course, the Qur’an to Mohammed. The Prophet evinces agreement of the Qur’an with the Bible as evidence of his holy mission.

        Yup, the folks who invented the monotheistic gawd and Judaism were smart to have been first, and Mohammed and the founders of Islam were smart to have been “the last word” on the matter.

        They were -and are – all deluded, but that’s a “whole ‘nother matter”, as they say. :-)

      • Shingo
        July 26, 2011, 9:50 pm

        Robert,

        Your verbose posts are notoriously vaccuous and follow a familiar pattern; first you begin with a one line denial of the charge against Israel, then you proceed to explain (in about 1000 words) why Israel did what is alleged.

        This post is no different.

        It speaks volumes that your authority of Israel’s involvement with Hamas is a Zionist shill and film maker. I mean seriously Robert, were you deliberately trying to be funny? Maybe try Mel Brooks, or Gene Simons next time and at least make it interesting.

        The fact that Israel created Hams is beyond dispute. Even Yitzak Rabin admitted that this ploy had been a mistake to Arafat.

        Avner Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, and who was responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, said that:

        “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,”

        As Richard Sale pointed out in a piece for UPI:
        “Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years. Israel ‘aided Hamas directly – the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),’ said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic [and International] Studies. Israel’s support for Hamas ‘was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,’ said a former senior CIA official.”

        Middle East analyst Ray Hanania concurs:
        “In addition to hoping to turn the Palestinian masses away from Arafat and the PLO, the Likud leadership believed they could achieve a workable alliance with Islamic, anti-Arafat forces that would also extend Israel’s control over the occupied territories.”

        Menachem Begin then Shamir, launched an effort to undercut the PLO, creating the so-called Village Leagues, composed of local councils of handpicked Palestinians who were willing to collaborate with Israel – and, in return, were put on the Israeli payroll. Sheik Yassin and his followers soon became a force within the Village Leagues.

        Ami Isseroff, writing on MideastWeb, shows how the Israelis deliberately promoted the Islamists of the future Hamas by helping them turn the Islamic University of Gaza into a base from which the group recruited activists – and the suicide bombers of tomorrow.

        According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem,

        “Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)”.

        According to the Israeli weekly Koteret Rashit (October 1987),

        “The Islamic associations as well as the university had been supported and encouraged by the Israeli military authority” in charge of the (civilian) administration of the West Bank and Gaza. Not only did Israel not prevent funds from flowing into the organization from abroad, “They were authorized to receive money payments from abroad.”

        The Hamas infrastructure of mosques, clinics, kindergartens, and other educational institutions flourished because they were lavishly funded by Israel and Hamas certainly knew where the support and funding was coming from.

        The turning point occurred in the summer of 1988 when Israel learned that Hamas was stockpiling arms to build an underground force and Hamas issued its covenant calling for the destruction of Israel.

        Now here’s where Israel’s involvement really gets ugly.

        In 1984, Ahmed Yassin was arrested and condemned to twelve years in prison, after the discovery of the hidden arms cache. But one year later, he was set free and resumed his activities. Why? Because the Israelis had a use for him.

        When the Intifada began, in October 1987, which took the Islamists by surprise, Sheik Yassin responded by creating the Hamas (with Israel’s help).

        The Hamas then launched a carefully timed campaign of attacks against civilians, one day before the meeting between Palestinian and Israeli negotiators, regarding the formal recognition of Israel by the National Palestinian Council. These events were largely instrumental in the formation of a Right wing Israeli government following the May 1996 elections.

        Then quite unexpectedly, and for a second time, then Prime Minister Netanyahu ordered Sheik Ahmed Yassin to be released from prison “on humanitarian grounds” where he was serving a life sentence. Clearly, the attacks which disrupted the negotiations were a coordinated effort between Netanyahu and Yassin.

        Meanwhile, Netanyahu, together with President Bill Clinton, was putting pressure on Arafat to control the Hamas. In fact, Netanyahu knew that he could rely, once more, on the Islamists to sabotage the Oslo accords. To top it all off, having expelled Yassin to Jordan, Netanyahu allowed him to return to Gaza , where he was welcomed triumphantly as a hero in October 1997.

        So the PLO was correct that Israel was helping Hamas in the hope of triggering a civil war. Israel was playing the time honoured game of divide and conquer. Even after Hamas began launching terror attacks, Netenyahu continued to back them and give them support.

        Israel was never concerned about violating the Palestinians’ freedom of religion. After all, Israel had been violating every aspect of Palestinians lives.

        The notion that Hezbollah is not rejectionist, however, is preposterous, and the notion that “the only thing they rejected was Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon” is even more so.

        What is preposterous is the very suggestion that Hezbollah is rejectionist.

        After an invasion (based on false pretenses) followed by an 18 year occupation and the murder of nearly 20,000 Lebanese, your Zionist brain can’t fathom why Hezbollah aren’t pro Israel.

        Let’s be clear Robert. Hezbollah were the product of Israel’s occupation of Lebanon, 36 years after Israel was created. If Hezbollah were simply anti Israel force, they would have come into existence created good deal longer.

        The same incidentally goes for Hamas, who were created 40 years AFTER Israel’s birth.

        Sheik Ibrahim al-Amin’s statement (which makes no refercen whatsoever to radical Islam) about Israel being the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world was perfectly accurate. The US were Israel’s greatest supoprters and financiers. Israel would indeed turn out to be the greatest danger to Lebanon’s futute generations and to it’s lands. After all, Israel didn’t even up leaving until 15 years later when Hebollah drove them out.

        In fact, al-Amin’s statement is perfectly consistent with my argument that the only thing Hezbollah rejected was Israel occupation of Southern Lebanon.

        The Zionist entity was indeed aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Of that, there can be no doubt. Israel were given 50% of the land that belonged to someone else, and the proceeded to steal a further 28% and counting.

        Israel have certainly never propose a treaty with Hezbollah. As for ceasefires, Israel violated it in 1982 and used a false justification for their invasion of Lebanon by claiming that the shooting of the Israeli ambassador in London by Abu Nidal was a breach of the existing ceasefire with the PLO.

        Got that Shingo? “[O]ur struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.”

        It never ceases to amaze me how tone deaf and narcissistic you Zionists are. You lay waste to populations and other states, yet remain indignant that your actions are not returned with well wishes/

        When Israel makes an offer to recognize Hezbollah as a legitimate militia and political entity, you”ll haver grounds for an argument. Remember that Israel started the 2006 war with the aim of obliterating Hezbollah, not the other way around.

        Doesn’t that make Israel the rejectionists? Oh that’s right, recognition is only a one way street with you Ziofascists. The destruction of Hezbollah remains one of the core, primary objectives of the terrorist organization, ahem, I mean Israel.

        I did not say that Arafat or the Mufti were Salafists. Both however viewed Palestine as a Waqf

        Bullshit. Divine provenance has been exploited in ever act of colonialism since time began. Zionist leaders spoke of Eretz Israel and all manner of Biblical diatribes ever since Hertzl. Every war and territorial struggle throughout history has been dressed in religious regalia. For Israel, the 1967 war was viewed by most Israelis and their supporters throughout the world as divine affirmation from God. In fact, the 6 day war was a turning point where religious Jews embraced Israel. General Boykin of the US armed forces made a ludicrous statement about his God being more powerful that Saddam’s. John McCain’s pastor is on record as saying that the US was created to destroy Islam.

        Your argument is beyond pathetic.

        As for Palestine not being so perceived, read Article 11 of the Hamas Charter:

        Hamas, who came into existence 40 years after the fact, had nothing to do with the 1948 war.

        Said you: “Of course, the British destroyed any resistance to Zionist colonialist by the late 1930′s, but the Zionist militias were expelling Palestinians and destroying their villages in 1947, and were already at it by the time UN181 was voted on.”

        This seems to be your favorite fabrication, demolished though it was in our last exchange.

        In your dreams perhaps, but out last exchange was merely a regurgitations of prior exchange, in which your own lies were laid bare and dare I say, demolished.

        And indeed in 1937, Ben-Gurion did declare that the Zionist plans was to seize all of Palestine and DID eject 750,000 Palestinians between 1947 and 1948.

        You’ve never been able to refute this.

        This is incredible. So there was no radical Islam before the 1970’s? Where did you pull this gem from?

        I realize that for a rampant Islamophobe like yourself, all Islam is radical, but no, there was absolutely no evidence of radical Islam before the 1970’s. Robert Pape, who conducted a DOD funded study on suicide bombings for 3 decades, produced a finding that in 95% of cases (or more) that suicide attacks have nothing to do with religion.

        While the Muslim Brotherhood was formed in 1928, it had no significant presence in Palestine until Israel created Hamas (with the aid of Egypt). Abd al-Rahman al-Banna might have had a few followers, but they had no visibility or relevance. They certainly were not carrying out suicide attacks. They played no practical role in the Arab Revolt (which had nothing to do with radical Islam).

        God knows where you pulled out that they had 26 branches in Mandate Palestine.

        The fact that hundreds among there were Muslim Brotherhood members among the Arabs forces in 1948 is about as relevant as the existence of Freemasons among the British authorities in Palestine.

        The Brothers launched attacks on Kfar-Darom on April 10, again on May 11-12, and attacked the Ramat-Rahel kibbutz south of Jerusalem on May 21 alongside the ALA. Nearly one-third of the May 15 Egyptian invasion force were drawn from among the Muslim Brothers.

        Oh please, I’ve already debunked this utter rubbish about “attacks” on the Ramat-Rahel kibbutz. You’re now taking your fiction a step further and insisting this was carried out by the Muslim Brotherhood, and carried out for religious reasons?

        Seriously Robert, you’re sounding delusional.

        First of all, as I have pointed out to you on at least two previous occasions, the Arab armies did indeed attack the areas of the Jewish-apportioned sections of Palestine.

        Oh please, the Jewish forces were already all over the Arab-apportioned sections of Palestine at the time. Surely you’re not suggesting that because some fighting may have occurred within the borders of Jewish-apportioned sections of Palestine that this amounts to an invasion? The borders of the partition were a mess by anyone’s standards, added to the fact that Jafa and Gaza were practically cut off from the rest of the Arab partition, it would have been impossible for some Arab groups not to traverse into Jewish territory.

        As King Ibn Saud said to Roosevelt in 1943..

        What he said to Roosevelt included not one mention of the word “jihad”.

        On November 2, 1947 the ‘ulema of Cairo’s A-Azhar University issued a fatwa..

        Irrelevant and again, no mention of the word “jihad” and nothing to do with radical Islam.

        Also, it is worth noting that the Mufti’s most prominent Palestinian militia was named the Jaysh al-Jihad al-Muqaddas (“Army of the Holy War”). </blockquote

        Interesting but irrelevant.

        Benny Morris, who acknowledges that the 1948 War was a secular, nationalist conflict, also stresses the religious/jihadist element of the conflict:</blockquote

        What rubbish! Nothing in that passage makes any reference to religious/jihadist elements of the conflict. Any invasion or foreign encroachment on someone's territory is viewed as a violation of one's sacred rights. All indigenous people's throughout history have resisted colonialism. As Walid Kalidi explained,
        “The native people of Palestine, like the native people of every other country in the Arab world, Asia, America, Africa and Europe, refused to divide the land with the settler community.”

        Jews throughout the world saved their pennies to send to the Zionist cause. British MP and ardent Zionist, Gerald Kauffman gave a speech in parliament in which he described that during his childhood, his family had a tin box for coins in his kitchen dedicated to the JNF. Does that mean that people like Kauffman were engaged in a holy war?

        This is simply false. It is not a “distraction” or a “conflation” and the conflict is not “entirely about territory.”

        Of course it’s about territory. It is ONLY about territory and always has been. That some might have regarded the 1948 war as a holy war is only true insofar as it was regarded on both sides as a war of survival. Those on both sides of all conflicts will cite religion to assert moral authority, but there is simply no case to be made, nor any evidence that the war was a holy war.

        I am still awaiting a response from you to my July 21 post on our last debate on the “A despairing conversation with an Arab friend at the Four Seasons” blog article where the shattered remnants of your July 18 post lie scattered about. Have at it.

        It’s coming. I’ve had a busy week, and my wife only just fell pregnant, so juggling that with a job, a 2 year old son and your “opus” has been difficult.

    • Mooser
      July 24, 2011, 8:55 pm

      Well, then davidsc, why don’t you explain to us what the Palestinians did so wrong to be subject to collective punishment from Israel?
      Are you really so sunk in your own ignorance and bigotry that you can tell us the situation is the fault of the Palestinians?

      • Mooser
        July 24, 2011, 8:57 pm

        Yes, David, I know, the Palestinians had the unmitigated temerity, the unimaginable gall, to be in the land that was supposed to be “peopleless”, and must be punished for this through all eternity.

      • DICKERSON3870
        July 25, 2011, 12:28 am

        Come on Mooser, “everybody knows” that the so-called Palestinians are “infiltrators” recently sent by the Saudis to squat in the land of milk and honey for no reason other than to play the “victims” and make “Pallywood” videos to post on YouTube. Haven’t you read Joan Peters excellent From Time Immemorial?
        The so-called Palestinians even made up that whole cockamamie story about the so-called Mamilla cemetery in Jerusalem that supposedly dates back to the 7th century just to harass the poor Simon Wiesenthal Center and frustrate their plans for building a “Museum of Tolerance” to stroke the egos of their fat cat American donors.
        Furthermore, that whole Dome of the Rock deal is nothing but a Pallywood set secretly built by the Nazis in the 1930s.
        “Everybody knows” the Temple Mount is in reality the place where G_d chose the Divine Presence to rest (Isa 8:18) and it was from there that the world expanded into its present form and where G_d gathered the dust used to create the first man, Adam. And it is where the Holy of Holies stood and where some aspect of the Divine Presence is still present. And it was from the Holy of Holies that the High Priest communicated directly with God (like George W. Bush today). SO THERE!!!!! PUT A CORK IN IT, MOOSER!!!!!

      • annie
        July 25, 2011, 12:43 am

        “everybody knows” that the so-called Palestinians are “infiltrators” recently sent by the Saudis to squat in the land of milk and honey

        hellllo! they were sent by the egyptians!

        “Everybody knows” the Temple Mount is in reality the place where G_d chose the Divine Presence to rest (Isa 8:18) and it was from there that the world expanded into its present form and where G_d gathered the dust used to create the first man, Adam.

        really? i’m like so certain the archeological evidence about all this stuff will be confirmed before armageddon. seriously dude i am.

      • DICKERSON3870
        July 25, 2011, 12:52 am

        RE: “hellllo! they were sent by the egyptians!” ~ annie

        MY REPLY: Well, excuse me! Six of one, half-dozen of the other!

      • davidsc
        July 25, 2011, 8:45 am

        As we stray off the beaten track…

      • Chaos4700
        July 25, 2011, 9:32 am

        Really? And that didn’t happen when you started throwing around words like “Hamas charter?”

        Anyway, getting people to stop talking about deaths caused in the name of Israeli policy is EXACTLY what you wanted. Nice try.

  44. dbroncos
    July 24, 2011, 10:13 pm

    Fredblogs- “Heck, even if someone attacks a Jewish target, it could be white supremacists rather than Muslims. It’s extremely irresponsible to speculate in advance of the facts.”

    …or it could be a Jewish extremist such as the assassin who shot Rabin.

    • Mooser
      July 25, 2011, 11:33 am

      Fredblogs-“Heck, even if someone attacks a Jewish target, it could be white supremacists rather than Muslims.”

      I can’t think of a single white supremacist who is not pro-Israel. Can you?
      Didn’t think so.
      So cheer up Fred, your Zionism got you into the country club.

  45. kalithea
    July 25, 2011, 2:18 am

    Breivik opened up a can of worms that Zionists are squirming to close shut. The lovely part is that it’s out there and it’s got legs.

    Could it be that Zionists influence terrorism on ALL sides and that all terrorism has in essence benefited their cause. Ahh, but this is different. This exposes the ugliness that lies beneath Zionism. Oops.

  46. MB.
    July 25, 2011, 9:18 am

    Very good, but Gilad Atzmon understood the links and got the story well before Blumenthal and others did — Check Atzmon’s insights on his website. He has the story clear, and his is the most convincing explanation I have seen yet.

  47. Chaos4700
    July 25, 2011, 9:40 am

    …And now the idea is for Zionists to convince us that it’s Islam to blame for the actions of a young man who was drinking Zionist koolaid about how Muslims need to die.

  48. BethlehemOlivesRedeem
    July 25, 2011, 6:02 pm

    People should consider at least two things about this massacre:
    1. It is the psychosocial product of the anti-Muslim soap-box orators ranting in the MSM about “Islamo-fascism” while themselves fomenting racist fascistic actions and policies (see NYTimes quote below, too), and
    2. The percentage of Norwegians murdered on Utoya Island was 0.002%, two times greater than the percentage of Americans (0.001%) who were killed on 9/11. (93 Utoya victims out of 4,827,038 Norwegians is 0.001926%, whereas 3,185 WTC victims out of 307 million is 0.001037%, using 2009 link to google.com population figures for Norway and the United States). It will be interesting to observe how different Norway’s cultural, social and political response will be from our crass militaristic, war-mongering, rather than crime-solving approach — and how many rightwing pundits in the USA will try to coopt and distort the massacre’s meaning, as if none of them had any blood on their hands for their chronic hate speech and stupid apologetics for the Bush-Obama continuum of unitary executive usurpations and Congressional abdications of the people’s voice to the corporations’ illegitimately Supreme-Court-sanctioned oligo-dictatorship.

    Today’s New York Times has several illuminating stories on the bombing in Norway. Scott Shane’s Killings Spotlight Anti-Muslim Thought in U.S.” is fairly good reporting. On the latter page of his frontpage story he quotes a former CIA officer, Marc Sageman who “said it would be unfair to attribute Mr. Breivik’s violence to the writers who helped shape his world view. But at the same time, he said the counterjihad writers do argue that the fundamentalist Salafi branch of Islam ‘is the infrastructure from which Al Qaeda emerged. Well,'” said Sageman, a forensic psychiatrist who ["saw no overt signs of mental illness in Mr. Breivik's writings"], “‘they and their writings are the infrastructure from which Breivik emerged.’
    “‘This rhetoric,’ he added, ‘is not cost-free.'”

    • annie
      July 25, 2011, 6:36 pm

      The percentage of Norwegians murdered on Utoya Island was 0.002%, two times greater than the percentage of Americans

      and the fact so many of them were teenagers. heartbreaking.

Leave a Reply