Englishman admits he singles out Israel–because his own leaders seem to be Israel’s devoted citizens

on 58 Comments

Wonderful piece by Robert Fowke at the Guardian on “why the obsession”
with Israel and Palestine? Notice the fact that the Jewish presence in the Establishment, in England too, grants the conflict a different weight. Don’t you see– the vociferousness and effectiveness of the Israel lobby make this conflict Our Conflict! Thus does Walt and Mearsheimer’s argument come all the way around: the lobby is lodged in our establishment, which is why the establishment press tried to destroy Walt and Mearsheimer, and that created giant pushback among all the people who have been lied to.

Fowke’s curve is my curve. I didn’t begin as a Palestinian solidarity activist. No, I began as an American appalled by Iraq; and then I found the three Zionist bears in the kitchen and started to wonder… Fowke:

There is another aspect to my relationship to Jews, however, which does significantly affect the interest I take in Israel. I have many Jewish friends, I went to school with boys from Jewish backgrounds and consequently I do not think of Jews as being foreign. It would be as absurd for me to call my Jewish friends foreign as it would to call my Quaker friends foreign; they are as English as I am. It is a religious category for me and nothing more, and quite rightly so.

The trouble is that Israel promotes itself as the state for all Jews, including – despite themselves – my friends. And because some of my friends are Jews and it is therefore their country, it is in some subliminal sense my country too. This produces a particular attitude towards Israel – it means that I do not think of Israel as truly foreign either. It is foreign, of course, but not emotionally, not like Thailand or Uzbekistan, and I do not respond to it as I do to most other foreign states. It is, emotionally, almost an English county planted on the Mediterranean shores.

Israel’s non-foreign status is amplified by the extraordinary support it enjoys in the corridors of power in Britain. As many as 80% of Tory MPs are members of Conservative Friends of Israel. The same cannot be said for Conservative friends of Thailand or Uzbekistan.

So not only is it in effect an English county, but many of my rulers appear to be its devoted citizens, subjectively speaking. All those shrill arguments over water or settlements, all that killing, all that fear and loathing, are not far away from me at all, no further away than Belfast.

So I judge this by domestic standards, not foreign ones. I do not expect Israelis to behave like Burmese generals; I expect them to behave like Englishmen, like my friends.

Supporters of Israel complain frequently and loudly that they are singled out for special attention and criticism. What about your own country’s misdeeds, or China’s, they say? And they are right. Israel is singled out for special attention. The Tibetans scarcely get a look-in compared to the Palestinians.

The number of news items about Israel-Palestine has created a self-reinforcing cycle – my appetite for yet more items is whetted by each new article or drama. All of which would appear to vindicate the complaints of the pro-Israel lobby – except that they should consider how they themselves contribute to this.

One reason why Israel is singled out for so much attention is because its supporters are so very vociferous, pushing their agenda at every opportunity. As a consumer of news, the speed of their responses and their sheer ubiquity inflames my interest and my antipathy. Why do they persist in trying to defend the indefensible?

Another reason for my disproportionate interest in this conflict is that I feel I have been lied to, and I feel that people are still trying to lie to me and I don’t like it.

58 Responses

  1. Dan Crowther
    August 3, 2011, 10:04 am

    “Another reason for my disproportionate interest in this conflict is that I feel I have been lied to, and I feel that people are still trying to lie to me and I don’t like it.”

    You and me both, brother.

    • WeAreAllMadeOfStars
      August 3, 2011, 10:34 am

      I am with you too Dan (that is, if you don’t mind ;-)

      • Dan Crowther
        August 3, 2011, 10:44 am

        I….. DO NOT….. mind :)

    • MRW
      August 3, 2011, 11:48 am

      Count me in, too.

      You could change the byline for this to mine, and it would be 100% accurate.

    • DICKERSON3870
      August 3, 2011, 3:57 pm

      RE: “I feel I have been lied to, and I feel that people are still trying to lie to me and I don’t like it.” ~ Fowke &
      “You and me both, brother.” ~ Crowther

      MY REPLY: Me too!

      FROM Cat on a Hot Tin Roof (1958):

      Big Daddy: What’s that smell in this room? Didn’t you notice it, Brick? Didn’t you notice the powerful and obnoxious odor of mendacity?
      Brick: Yes, sir, I think I did.
      Big Daddy: Ain’t nothing more powerful than the odor of mendacity.
      Big Daddy: Didn’t you notice it, Gooper?
      Grooper: What, sir?
      Big Daddy (to Mae): What about you, Sister Woman? Didn’t you notice an unpleasant smell of mendacity in this room?
      Mae: I don’t even know what that is.
      Big Daddy: You can smell it. It smells like death.

      SOURCE – link to script-o-rama.com

      • annie
        August 3, 2011, 4:07 pm

        you never fail to amaze me dickerson

      • DICKERSON3870
        August 3, 2011, 4:27 pm

        Mendacity – Cat On A Hot Tin Roof (VIDEO, 01:08) — link to youtube.com
        Big Daddy: Boy, I’ve lived with mendacity.
        Why can’t you live with it?
        You’ve got to. There’s nothing to live with
        but mendacity. Is there?

        Brick: Yes, sir, you can live with this [bourbon].
        Brick (to Maggie): So that disgust with mendacity
        is really disgust with myself.

  2. annie
    August 3, 2011, 10:18 am

    good catch phil

  3. Taxi
    August 3, 2011, 10:43 am

    “When I see Binyamin Netanyahu and his colleagues putting their side of some event, I do not see honest men and my emotions are the same as those I experience when I see burglars and con-men – distaste and disapproval. And yet they won’t shut up.”

    I can tell Robert Fowke really wanted to add ‘mass-murderers’ to “burglars and con-men”.

  4. Tzombo
    August 3, 2011, 10:56 am

    I was wondering why it looked so familiar, I read this article a year ago when it appeared.

  5. stevelaudig
    August 3, 2011, 11:05 am

    Somewhere in Robert Graves’s “I, Claudius” he wrote something like “Rome rules the world and Augustus rules Rome, but Livia rules Augustus.
    My take: The U.S. rules the world, but Israel rules the U.S.
    Otherwise the Liberty would be remembered and Eisenhower’s approach to Zionist-Israeli colonial imperialism in the Middle East would still be American policy.

  6. Kathleen
    August 3, 2011, 12:12 pm

    “It is, emotionally, almost an English county planted on the Mediterranean shores.”
    And so it is
    link to en.wikipedia.org

    Amazing to think about how well the endlessly repeated mantras have worked in the US and the UK. “Israel and the US interest are the same” “Israel is the US’s best friend” yada yada yada

    • libra
      August 3, 2011, 1:49 pm

      “It is, emotionally, almost an English county planted on the Mediterranean shores.”

      And like any self-respecting English county they have a cricket team. That must account for the Israel’s famous tradition of “fair play”.

  7. Kathleen
    August 3, 2011, 12:15 pm

    Need a laugh

    link to huffingtonpost.com

    Stewart and team nail the hypocrisy once again. Just wish they would use that brilliant cynicism on the I/P conflict more. Although will admit there is an opening at the Daily Show. Not much of one but a crack is better than nothing

  8. Kathleen
    August 3, 2011, 12:17 pm

    “Why do they persist in trying to defend the indefensible?”

    Amazing that it has taken so many so long to wake up to these serious injustices

  9. eGuard
    August 3, 2011, 12:29 pm

    Robert Fowke: … I feel I have been lied to, and I feel that people are still trying to lie to me.


  10. American
    August 3, 2011, 1:05 pm

    Well that’s about my curve also.
    Except I always thought of Israel as foreign because it is a foreign country.
    I hadn’t, previous to my US-Isr-ME awakening, thought of US Jews as
    connected to Israel. I guess I viewed Israel thru the lens of Hollywood as more some kind of estabishment for holocuast Jews, not American ones.

    I can almost remember the exact point in my treck thru this tangled web when I finally had to concede to myself the extent of our government’s corruption regarding Israel.

    • PissedOffAmerican
      August 3, 2011, 2:20 pm

      “I can almost remember the exact point…..”

      I do remember my own.

      It was when, amazingly sympathetic to Israel and the Jews, I started digging deep, after 9/11.

      I remember to this day, my VERY FIRST blog comment, where I said of the Jews; “Well, at least they weren’t dancing in the streets when the towers fell”.

      Man, was I ever wrong.

      • LanceThruster
        August 3, 2011, 6:34 pm

        Prior to 9/11, I lazily thought of the Israelis/Zionists as the “white hats” and the Arabs/Muslims as the “black hats.”

        Afterward, I felt it woud be important to better understand the politics of the region as it would be the focus of our nation for some time to come. It didn’t take much scratchig of the surface to see how one-sided the narrative was. Trying to discuss it online revealed how aggressively the orthodoxy was enforced.

        It doesn’t take a whole lot of experiencing the lying and bullying first hand to realize just how prevelant the lies and brownshirt tactics were (with help from a fanatical volunteer army of sayan). Once the curtain was pulled back on Israeli Zionists, it became far easier to deconstruct their BS.

        My pal Bernie the Attorney was pivotal in helping me see the light. His “magic decoder ring” was what he called “the 180 rule”. Whatever the Israeli claims were, the truth was most likely the exact opposite.

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 4, 2011, 9:52 am

        For me, one of the big eye openers was the repeated claims in the US media that the Israelis were willing to give the Palestinians “95%” of what they demanded. That number, 95%, repeated over and over and over again made the Israelis sound like carnival hucksters trying to get one over on me. (After all, it wouldn’t do you any good to be able to go any where you wanted to, in 95% of a swimming pool, if the 5% you were excluded from was the surface of the water and the 5% from the top down…)

        It sounded like a pitch, for which you needed to read the small print. I discovered the small print.

    • CigarGod
      August 4, 2011, 10:15 am

      It only took me a few conversations with Arabs/Persians, etc. in college, who I respected and presented themselves very well, that I realized there was a side I’d never really seen or heard.

      Luckily, I’d previously acquired some skills in the civil rights/womens rights/anti-war movements that came in handy when I started processing this new information.

  11. lysias
    August 3, 2011, 5:00 pm

    I was once at a reception at the UK embassy in Washington. It was hosted by the ambassador, Sir Nigel Sheinwald, and the guest of honor was a Labour Party MP who had power in the then-current (Brown, I think) government.

    I overheard Ambassador Sheinwald telling that guest, as the reception ended, that they would have to hurry up to get to attend the AIPAC convention, which was then going on in Washington.

  12. lysias
    August 3, 2011, 5:04 pm

    As a retired naval officer, who belonged to the same Naval Security Group command as did the sailors on the USS Liberty that Israel murdered, I have my own reasons for being particularly concerned about Israel.

  13. lysias
    August 3, 2011, 5:08 pm

    But delving into my deepest heart, I cannot honestly say that I am more hostile to Jews than I am towards Scotsmen and Welshmen. And since normally, far from being hostile, I rather like the Scots, Welsh and Jews that I meet, antisemitism can hardly be the reason for my interest in the Israel-Palestine conflict. That one is out of the window before we start. Sorry.

    As an Irish-American, I can’t help but notice what seems to me the glaring absence of any mention of Irishmen in that paragraph.

  14. Justice Please
    August 3, 2011, 5:59 pm

    “I didn’t begin as a Palestinian solidarity activist. No, I began as an American appalled by Iraq; and then I found the three Zionist bears in the kitchen and started to wonder…”

    Nice one :-)

  15. longliveisrael
    August 3, 2011, 7:04 pm

    Some of my best friends are Jews
    I think of Israel just like my own county, I hate them because I love them.

    Same old tired refrain.

    “I expect them to behave like Englishmen, like my friends.”

    Hmm, England of course has a history devoid of bloodshed. England invaded the Falklands which was thousands of miles away and no threat whatsoever. England was of course, also in Iraq.
    When England had it’s cities bombed by the Luftwaffe, they firebombed Dresden and other German cities.
    Englands used the SAS to execute suspected IRA terrorists in Malta. I could go on and on. Please don’t preach to us.

    • Bumblebye
      August 3, 2011, 8:47 pm

      I think you’ll find the Argentinians invaded the Falklands, which are over 200miles off their coast and inhabited by people who did not wish to be taken over by a country run by a military junta. The kind that threw its young dissenters out of helicopters and into the sea. Their claim to the islands is as logical as a claim to any other of their neighbors. They thought they could get away with it because Thatcher had been running down the Southern command of the navy.
      When England had its cities bombed by Nazi Germany, some were literally picked from a set of postcards! Would you have us not have gone to war?
      England didn’t use the SAS to execute suspected IRA terrorists in Malta, it was Gibralter.
      Drone on lli, I won’t bother with a list of Israel’s recent misdeeds, it’d be too long.

    • MarkF
      August 4, 2011, 8:28 am

      Actually, we have every right to “preach” to you. You accept our welfare and you beg for more during our high holidays in our synagogues.

      Want to stop hearing us preach? Stop taking our money and stand on your own two feet. At that point you could tell us, to use a British term, “piss off”. Until then, it’s best to simply say “thank you for foresaking your own.”

    • CigarGod
      August 4, 2011, 10:21 am

      You take my money, you have to listen to me.

  16. Oklahoma farmer
    August 3, 2011, 7:29 pm

    Can’t recall when I changed from Gungho Israeli-firster to Palestinian backer. Was gradual…

    But am I an antisemite? It’s so hard for me to keep my anger at Israel focused on Israel and not let it color my thoughts about Jews in the US. Any of you have the same problem?

    • PissedOffAmerican
      August 3, 2011, 10:24 pm

      Well, I have a very hard time with people that defend Israeli policy. But truth is, I only know one Jew that does so. And there is plenty to dislike about this fellow without bothering with his religion, race, or ethnicity.

      I actually live with a Jewish woman that is appalled by what Israel is doing.

      I think, pretty much, that American Jews have been conditioned with the same propaganda we have, only, maybe, tenfold, because their conditioning is often buttressed by the religious teachings. Can’t really fault ’em for being brainwashed, them that are.

      But its hard to understand the act of defending a heinious act or attrocity just because its a jew that committed the act.

      • longliveisrael
        August 4, 2011, 1:18 am

        Isn’t that the height of arrogance to claim that all those who support Israel are brainwashed. All these supposed smart people just can’t see and think, but you and a few others can!

      • annie
        August 4, 2011, 1:35 am

        Isn’t that the height of arrogance to claim that all those who support Israel are brainwashed.

        vs ethnic cleansers? we’re being generous, don’t knock it.

      • Ellen
        August 4, 2011, 9:40 am

        So those who supported Fascist Italy, Serbian Nationalism, or Nazi Germany were NOT brainwashed?

        What were they then?

      • Ellen
        August 4, 2011, 9:42 am

        LongliveIs, btw,

        I have a good girlfriend who is active in WZOA and in a moment of truth (she is intelligent) said to me, “yes, we are ALL brainwashed.”

      • CigarGod
        August 4, 2011, 10:25 am

        When you either have to rationalize/justify barbaric practices of the country you love…or believe in sky fairies that tell you the same thing, then you are pretty much under the influence.

    • American
      August 4, 2011, 1:03 am

      Honest question.
      I went thru several phases in my US-Isr-Jews- I/P education.
      First, not understanding why or how US could support what was going on in I/P.
      Second, learning about and verifying the AIPAC, Jewish connection between the US and Israel- I/P and even ME policy.
      Third, so then it was ..US Jews of all people are behind this?, are they fricking crazy?, what the hell are they doing?
      Forth, then you discover the Zionist and start seperating all the crap they spout about how the Jewish community is some monolithic group on Israel and zero in on the real culprits.
      Which is the damn Zionist.
      Sixth, then you have to separate the damn Zionist from the run of the mill brainwashed, self deluded or don’t know any better zionist.
      Which still leaves the damn Zionist.
      Not to be confused with all ‘The Jews”.
      You can hate the damn zionist as much as your want as far as I am concerned, they deserve it.

      But if you want your anger to do any good in this mess it needs to be directed toward the politicians who have allowed this Israeli aberration to infiltrate the US government. This country, because of all the various tools for use in a democracy, will always have avenues for zionist and other cults with foreign loyalties to push their agendas on our government. It’s our so called leaders responsibility to be the gatekeepers against this kind of subversion and influence.

      But to answer your question, imo as a non Jew if you hate/dislike Jews just because they are Jews you are a anti semite or bigot.
      If you don’t you’re not.
      And you can dislike, be critical of, disgusted with the Jewish State of Israel same way as if it was a Buddhist, Christian or Whatever State despite the zio accusations that it’s anti semitic to pick on Israel. At least this is my position and I am sticking to it.

    • annie
      August 4, 2011, 1:51 am

      It’s so hard for me to keep my anger at Israel focused on Israel and not let it color my thoughts about Jews in the US.

      okie, i’m going to take your dire statement seriously. frankly i’m not really familiar with the jewish community in oklahoma but i bet there is one. do you know any jews? engage and meet some please. i can’t imagine how you would say this if you had any genuine personal experience with more than say..one or two jews you had a bad personal experience with. if you can’t find any jews out in your farm area come to the coasts because we have a lot out here and we are better for it. good luck and don’t go down that ‘color my thoughts’ road, it’s a ugly dead end. don’t be part of the problem, be part of the solution.

      • CigarGod
        August 4, 2011, 10:42 am

        I am one of a total of 400 Jews in the great state of Wyoming.
        There aren’t enough of us to waste our time at each others throats, but we do anyway.

      • Taxi
        August 4, 2011, 11:38 am

        People without the knowledge or historic background on the I/P conflict might easily develop a strong association between ‘jews’ and ‘israel’ because so much zionist propaganda keeps telling them that the two are inseparable and the same. This willful conflagration by israel and her supporters becomes extremely dangerous when israel commits evil and inhumane deeds (which it does on a daily basis). The zionists have so successfully blurred the line between judasim and zionism that no wonder uninformed people get confused.

        But indeed it is always the responsibility of the individual to free themselves of the bondage of ignorance.

        To Oklahoma I say: dude them zionists want you to hate on ALL jews: it’s part of the cover-up of their swindle. Zionists commit crimes and shield themselves behind judasim in public view. Don’t fall for that easy trap. Not all jews are zionists. It really is as simple as that.

      • Ellen
        August 4, 2011, 11:54 am

        Taxi, Bingo. Zionism encourages, nurtures, feeds Judeophobia. it is the gig.

        In fact, (and forgive me Oklahoma if this is totally wrong, but I am being honest here) when thinking more about it, I had the feeling that Oklahoma might be on a Zio fishing trip when he wrote …let it color my thoughts about Jews in the US. Any of you have the same problem?

    • lyn117
      August 4, 2011, 2:37 am

      @Oklahoma farmer, I sympathize, actually, but just keep judging people by the content of their character. Even some zionists are decent & honest people, even if deluded about what zionism is all about.

      Robert Fowke nails it for me too, but I have to add that as a kid I always sympathized with the Indians (Native Americans today) whose lands were stolen.

    • Ellen
      August 4, 2011, 9:38 am

      Oklahoma, no , not at all.

      It is an ugly human thing not specific to Israel or any one group of people.

      The syndrome Israel is caught in shares the same dynamics of occupiers of peoples, mixed in with nationalism, colonialism, militarism and (in this case) self indulgent victimology. (There are so many parallels in history. )

      We should be more sick about our own government enabling (even cheering on) the crimes in our names and with our tax money. That is where your anger should be focused.

      BTW, I started to ask questions back in 1982 in my early 20’s when Israel allowed the atrocities to happen in the Palestinian refugee camps, under the watch of Sharon. Something was terribly wrong.

      Then that he only got a slap on the wrist and then went on to become Prime Minister was sickening. The sirens of truth started going off in my head

  17. MHughes976
    August 4, 2011, 9:59 am

    I think we have to keep distinguishing between attitudes taken towards people because they are Jewish and attitudes taken towards people who are Jewish but whose actions raise our concern for some other reason. The same with both positive and negative attitudes, really.
    Bad things are being done to the Palestinians and bad reasons are being used to justify these things. It is mainly Jewish people who are doing these things but the objection is not to the fact that the people who are doing these things are Jewish but that both actions and reasons are bad.
    It does appear that the majority – maybe the great majority – of those considering themselves Jewish support these bad things, maybe quite strongly. That’s worrying and saddening for anyone who is not a racist. But it would still be preposterous to say that our problem with what’s going on in Palestine is that Jewish people support it – it’s that we think it’s all wrong.

    • Ellen
      August 4, 2011, 10:27 am

      …both actions and reasons are bad.

      That is what happens when basically decent and naive people are fed one line of brainwashing and wind up doing and supporting very bad things.

      Unfortunately, most people are followers, do not ask questions and are motivated by animal and tribal instincts. This works well in getting the masses to move in one direction in all organized societies.

  18. Oklahoma farmer
    August 4, 2011, 10:46 am

    Annie…my comment was serious. I rarely ever read comments at any web site but this MW thingy was interesting so I read them. I was surprised in that they were not just well written and interesting but quite civil. Civility is usually quickly lost in most comment sections no matter the site. I thought how all the respondents to my query were people that I’d like to know and would like for them to be my friends.

    So, I waded in very briefly. Turns out, my post hit a tender spot and got good return.

    Ordinarily I’m right to the point but this is a difficult thing…. I am racist and I am ashamed. That should not be me and yet here I am blaming a group of people for something only a few of them are guilty of. What has happened to me? You ask if as an Oklahoma farmer how many Jews I know… Well… Not too many at this time, but for years I was in another state in a rather cosmopolitan, small town with a disproportionately large number of Jews. I never saw antiSemeticism in that town… I was in business and more than once, non Jews thought I was a Jew. My friends knew I wasn’t but when mistaken for a Jew I felt a silly, undeserved pride.

    Really Annie…it pleased me when someone respected my business ability enough to mistake me for a Jew.

    But something happened one day at my office which was 2 blocks from the Synagogue and had a similar appearance to the Synagogue. As long as I’ve started this damned thing I’m gonna finish, you can deep six it… probably should….

    So… one morning maybe 5-6 young people came in and asked if this was the Synagogue as they wanted to protest something. Uninquistive me said “no, it’s 2 blocks that way” and they left. This was about 1964. I haven’t the faintest idea what their complaint was but remember distinctly that even before they found out they were in the wrong place, they were quite polite and for sure didn’t seem a threat. They did have something of an appearance of hippies, rather neatly dressed hippies.

    Well…. 2 days later the local paper, first page, above the fold, had an article about how a gang had gone to the synagogue and caused trouble and were arrested and thrown in jail.

    The next day, I talked with a friend, a Jewish friend used car lot owner (later new car dealer) and he was absolutely full of himself how he’d been called to the synagogue and hurried there with friends and “beat the shit” out of a gang of hippies for some reason or other.

    Now, I did not see the “to-do” so I can’t absolutely say for sure, but in my mind, things just did not add up. The group that came into my waiting room in no way appeared to be dangerous.

    It was then that I began to realize my newspaper and my police department and my friend just may not have been quite as neutral as I’d allways assumed them to be.

    Now… let’s fast forward a jump. In 1967 I recieved a good bundle of money and needed a place to put it for a year or so. I studied and read and worried and finally put it in Standard Oil of California. Just about the next day, the 67 war started and my stock went to shit. I had no idea what the war was about but was so mad I wanted to charter a jet and go over there and get the idiots by the scruff of their neck and tell them to stop that shit. A fantasy of course, but shows you how internationally dumb I was.

    Israel whupped up on a whole passel of countrys and I became an Israeli worshipper. I thought they have to be the greatest people in the world.

    My stock made a feeble incomplete recovery, but my admiration for Israel was boundless.

    The point of this ramble is I was an Israeli firster of the first order.

    Then, I get a computer and stumble around in the net and, what does my mind learn?….. the truth… the big truth…

    Annie, I get it now. I now see it. I see that Israel controls our media. I see Israel controls DC. I see Israel runs our foreign policy. I see what the real story is, in the Middle East.

    I see Israel’s policys are ruining the US.

    I am… most assuridly anti-Israel.

    But I’ve become racist too.. I’ve begun to blame Jews everywhere, over the horror of Gaza and the West Bank. It is terribly wrong for me to blame all Jews for those atrocitys as I need to look no further than read MondoWeiss to know all Jews are not Zionists….

    But what about my antisemeitcism? Am I totally to blame? Am I an antisemetic because my brain is somehow wired wrong? Is it all my fault? Am I a tiny minded jerk?

    Or have I been made this way? Have I been trained to be antisemetic? Has the tribe I’ve come to detest made me this way? Has Zionism somehow inadvertently made me dislike Jews?

    Or Annie…… I don’t recall ever reading this….and it sounds really horrible on my part, but I wonder… I really do wonder…. have Zionists planned to make other peoples hate Jews so as to force all Jews into one unbroken, one completely united tribe? A Jews against the world, so-to-speak?

    I guess Annie my question really is, what has made me a racist… a person my mother would be ashamed to call her son… a person I’m ashamed to have become…

    I don’t know… I just don’t know

    • Taxi
      August 4, 2011, 12:50 pm

      Oklahoma farmer,

      I reckon your confessionals represent a pulsing grass-root dilemma for many non-jews that doesn’t get discussed enough: basically the accumulative damage that zionism has had on judaism and the jews’ reputation around the world.

      Because of the advent of the internet, goy are now knowing more and more about the fakeries of zionism and are getting ‘uncomfortable’ with their support for israel – nay some of them now are even getting hateful of jews. This is a very serious problem that some of us have been warning about for years.

      And what is the solution? Well Phil and Adam on MW have already spent a chunk of time on the importance of jews speaking out loud against zionism. They continue to do this. This is somewhat redressing the imbalance but it’s not enough. The rest of the solution lies in the hands of the decent and discerning individual goy to utterly reject all racism, all forms of prejudice, without AND within.

      You gotta fight your own demons Oklahoma – especially if you’re aware of them and practice self-honesty. This is 100% your responsibility and not the ‘jews’ or the ‘israelis’.

      Sure you can slay the racist dragon within – just let reason be your sword. Don’t YOU do what the zionists so cynically do: intentionally blur the line between zionist and jew.

      If you blur the lines yourself, this could only mean that you have personally given the zionists their evil victory. Enabled them, despite your rejection of them. See what I mean?

      Don’t surrender your rationale and goodwill to zionist propagandists.

      Also, remember we’re told that there are some 40 million zionist christians in the usa alone. So like do we start hating on ALL christians? Of course NOT!

      This battle is fundamentally a battle against Racism/fascism – never forget this.

    • Ellen
      August 5, 2011, 7:16 am

      Oklahoma, Remind yourself that Zionism is NOT Judaism. Many Jews reject Zionism, and in the early days of the Zionist movement, most all Jews everywhere rejected Zionism for the crackpot ideology it is.

      You might want to be interested in this wonderful site from an established Jewish organization that receives too little attention in this country:

      link to acjna.org

      “When, at the end of the Passover Seder, we say “Next year in Jerusalem,” we are articulating a religious metaphor. What we mean is “Next year all Jews should live in freedom,” just as we do in the United States.”

      • eljay
        August 5, 2011, 9:38 am

        Oklahoma farmer‘s (OF’s) post of August 4, 2011 at 10:46 am strikes me as a call to anti-semitism disguised as a “simple-folk” anecdote. It may not be, and I apologize for offending OF if his anecdote is sincere, but the following comment of his is what got me thinking:
        >> Have I been trained to be antisemetic? Has the tribe I’ve come to detest made me this way? Has Zionism somehow inadvertently made me dislike Jews?

        Zionism shouldn’t make one dislike Jews any more than black neighbourhood gangs should make one dislike all blacks or the actions of white supremacists should make one dislike all white people.

        In fact, increased awareness of the fact that Zionism doesn’t represent all Jews – just as black gangs don’t represent all blacks and white supremacists don’t represent all white people should generate in someone a dislike of the radical elements (Zionists, gangs, supremacists) rather than the “parent group” of those elements.

        I grew up in a home and community in which it was reasonable to dislike Jews (among others). There was no distinction between Zionist and non-Zionist Jews, either because my elders thought it was irrelevant, or because they themselves didn’t know better. Over the years, reading different books and websites (including this one), shedding religion in favour of humanism (the real kind, not the fraudulent Zio-supremacist kind) and talking to people has helped free me – as much as any human being can be freed – from irrational dislikes.

        (I realize the above paragraph is going to be distorted and abused by Zio-supremacists, but that can’t be helped.)

        I was therefore quite surprised to read OF’s claim that his enlightenment has actually caused him to become anti-Semitic, rather than anti-Zionist.

        OF, I hope I’ve misunderstood where you’re coming from, and I apologize if I have.

      • Philip Weiss
        August 5, 2011, 10:30 am

        eljay i thank you for your comment. aw shucksism can disguise an agenda, as we know

      • eljay
        August 6, 2011, 12:00 am

        >> eljay i thank you for your comment.

        Thanks, Phil. I appreciate your acknowledgement.

    • annie
      August 6, 2011, 12:40 am

      So… one morning maybe 5-6 young people came in and asked if this was the Synagogue as they wanted to protest something. Uninquistive me said “no, it’s 2 blocks that way” and they left. This was about 1964. I haven’t the faintest idea what their complaint was but remember distinctly that even before they found out they were in the wrong place, they were quite polite and for sure didn’t seem a threat. They did have something of an appearance of hippies

      it couldn’t have been 1964 in oklahoma. i’m from the hippie capital of marin county california. even we didn’t have hippies in 1964.

      my advice would be to find a good shrink. preferably a jewish shrink. just go for it okie.

  19. Oklahoma farmer
    August 5, 2011, 9:47 am

    Taxi… you are a marvel at writing. Short, exactly on target and cover all points perfectly-quickly…. I know inside, what you write is what I should do… but…there is a but.. But it’s hard to change.

    Ellen.. “..in the early days of the Zionist movement, most all Jews…rejected Zionism.. (as) crackpot(s)..” but now? From my observations I’d say very few American Jews call Zionists “crackpot”… Most American Jews cave to them. And that is the core to my problem. Until American Jews absolutely distance themselves from Zionism, I will have trouble with feelings toward them.

    • Philip Weiss
      August 5, 2011, 10:29 am

      oakman, we got a lot of jews on this site questioning the indoctrination. we are growing diversity in our community

    • Taxi
      August 5, 2011, 10:50 am

      “But it’s hard to change”.

      Believe me it’s WORSE-HARDER if you DON’T CHANGE! For YOU and for YOUR GRANDCHILDREN!

      WTF Oklahoma – get it together! Don’t let the zionists kick yer ass! Stand upright and utterly reject their HATE BAIT! Don’t be a mental weakling!

      Don’t be tempted by hate, but by JUSTICE!

      Snap outta yer ifs and buts and just DO THE RIGHT THING. And you already know what the right thing IS.

      • annie
        August 6, 2011, 12:43 am

        exactly, break the chain

  20. MHughes976
    August 6, 2011, 12:04 pm

    I wonder if I was being honest enough about myself in my earlier reply to Ok. It’s true that the anti-Zionist minority among Jewish people is growing but it is still very much a minority. The majority is keenly Zionist and keen to denounce the likes of me as ‘anti-Semitic’. What comes into the mind of an anti-Zionist when (s)he meets someone who is Jewish? At least a small mental flag is raised and a certain sense of being in a danger zone exists. My version is a feeling that there are topics not to be mentioned at least unless and until we have got to know each other. This is because of the statistical likelihood that the two of us have seriously different moral positions. Few of us like even this degree of caution and reserve. Of course the problem is very limited. It vanishes if the other person is not in fact a Zionist, and would be worse if (s)he were an upfront Christian Zionist. There’s no obstacle to our feeling admiration and respect on many other grounds. But even a limited problem is a problem.

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