Passages from statements issued by the leaders of Jewish Voice for Peace, condemning both the attacks in southern Israel and the Israeli reprisals in Gaza:
Within hours of the attacks, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said, "There will be a price tag to this event... Gaza will be severely hit." (Ynet) Israel subsequently initiated lethal air strikes on southern Gaza where an already desperately poor 1.5 million Palestinians live captive with limited access to food, medical supplies and fuel due to Israeli and Egyptian policies. So far 6 have been reported dead. Israel's "price tag" approach to Gaza, otherwise known as collective punishment, is also a serious violation of international law.
JVP Deputy Director Cecilie Surasky: “Instead of investigating and bringing those responsible to justice based on the rule of law, Israel is responding to the horror of Eilat with collective punishment by bombing a captive and struggling population in Gaza. This escalation is simply wrong and will only lead to the deaths of more Palestinians and Israelis and the continued deterioration of Israel’s standing in the world.”
JVP Executive Director Rebecca Vilkomerson: “Every single death is a tragedy and there can never be an excuse for deliberately killing civilians. Unfortunately, as long as the United States continues to support Israel's decades-long practice of illegally appropriating land, destroying homes, and using disproportionate force--a policy which has proven to be both morally bankrupt and self-destructive for Israel--neither Palestinians nor Israelis will ever know peace.”
What is the Hebrew for “price tag”? It is a brutal concept. Very Cossack too.
Disgusting that at Israeli minister used that phrase. It’s a tacit nod to the settler’s terrorist activities in the West Bank, and I’m sure it was no slip of the tongue.
You mean like #RussianDolls?
the IDF mouthpiece in Haa’retz
link to haaretz.com
“With the crumbling of Mubarak’s government Israel has lost a cold but tough partner. Mubarak also had difficulty imposing authority on Sinai, but his deposers and heirs aren’t even trying. As long as Israel held the Gaza-Egypt border, a reasonable modicum of security prevailed along the border between Rafah and Eilat.Now there is no Egyptian army threatening Eilat, but Hamas, together with “rogue” organizations like the popular resistance committees and Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Iran and other terror groups, have created an intolerable situation.
Israel does not border on the Suez Canal or the Nile. Egypt is a hostile state that enables Israel’s enemies to attack it. The American-run multinational force is useless. So will NATO forces be if they are sent on peace policing missions. Without Mubarak, and with Hamas in Gaza, with a Jordanian king fearing for his throne and an American administration that doesn’t believe in Israel’s judgment, what comes next could be even worse.”
They are going to attack Gaza again. Before the vote.
Voices for peace sound so naive compared to this nihilism.
What has Hezbollah got to do with Israel’s southern border? Nothing.
Ironic admission however that Israel regarded a brutal and undemocratic dictator as a “partner”.
“Egypt is a hostile state that enables Israel’s enemies to attack it. The American-run multinational force is useless. So will NATO forces be if they are sent on peace policing missions”
This is really incendiary stuff from the IDF.
“Egypt is a hostile state that enables Israel’s enemies to attack it.”
++++ While reality is this : The Egyptian junta has expressed growing concern about its lack of control over the Sinai Peninsula, and has increased the number of troops operating there in recent days. A long-standing peace deal with Israel has made it extremely difficult for Egypt to deploy troops in the once-occupied peninsula.
link to mfa.gov.il
“Every single death is a tragedy”
This implies that deaths are not the goal of Israel. The Israeli system is based on killing. That is what they do to suppress the Palestinians. Every single death is part of a strategy.
I doubt I will ever hear any Jewish group call Israel for what it is – a colonial system that uses extreme violence to prop up a high living standard for Jews living in the near east.
“JVP: As long as US supports occupation, Israelis and Palestinians will not know peace”
And Israelis will continue having to look over their shoulders every time they get on a bus or go out for pizza. That’s the “price tag” of the occupation, any occupation.
As long as the US supports the occupation Israelis will maintain a rich world standard of living and believe this is going to continue forever. By the time they wake up it will be too late.
What occupation? MSM, especially Fox News has not received the memo. All Fox News is repeating endlessly is that IDF attacks on Gaza community are a reaction to the bombing of jew on a bus. They don’t seem to have gotten the full picture(s): link to occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com
Condemning both the attack near Eilat and the reprisal, as if they are in the same category, is morally bankrupt. On the one hand: attacking innocent civilians and on the other hand: seeking out those responsible for the attacks (not the entire population of Gaza).
I’ve just been informed that ,thank God, my daughter narrowly escaped injury from the rocket in Beersheva.
I condemn attacks against civilians. Military is legal target.
Glad to hear that.
How many sons and daughters escape injury -or death- from Israeli warplanes?
seeking out those responsible for the attacks (not the entire population of Gaza).
The Gaza-based PRC denied responsibility for the Eilat attack. Are you suggesting that Israel conducted an investigation before it started killing people in reprisals?
link to jpost.com
Oh, wonderful. I hope you’re willing to pray for those parents who didn’t have a close call just now, because THEIR CHILDREN ARE DEAD by your country’s hands.
You’re right about one thing. Equating the disgusting atrocity of using military force against besieged, starved and imprisoned civilians does not fall in the same category as a handful of rocket attacks that accomplish little more than scaring people.
Jon – you are the one displaying moral bankruptcy. What you call “reprisal” is actually the use of lethal force on human beings solely on the basis of their ethnicity/nationality, without the slightest evidence that they were involved in this attack. A fairer description would be mass murder and terrorism. You persist in the fantasy that Israel is “seeking out those responsible for the attacks (not the entire population of Gaza)” even when the Defense Minister says: “There will be a price tag to this event… Gaza will be severely hit.” There is a long history of such expressions by Israeli leaders of blind revenge at an entire people, and the aggregate body count is truly shocking. How could you, a self-described “long-time activist on the Israeli Left,” be so ignorant of this continuing nightmare of indiscriminate murder by your own country? Considering the harsh, sadistic oppression Israel has been inflicting on Palestinians for the past several decades, every act of Palestinian terrorism would be a better candidate for the white-washing word “reprisal.”
On one thing, we agree. There is no moral equivalence between Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians and Israeli violence against Palestinians. The former, in my view, is reprehensible, while the latter is much, much worse, principally for two reasons. One, Israel kills many more, and two, Palestinian violence is committed by a people seeking freedom while Israeli violence is committed to deny that freedom.
As for your daughter, I and I’m sure many others here empathize with your relief at her safety, but not being acquainted with you or her, I see no reason to personally value her life any higher than any of the tens of thousands of anonymous victims of Israeli murder. If you want peace for her in the long run, a good place to start would be your own head. Think of Palestinians as equal human beings, with equal value to their lives, and encourage your countrymen and women to do the same. You have a lot of work to do.
David,
You’re saying that a terrorist attack is bad, but response to the attack is worse. Doesn’t make sense to me.
You’re not the first to bring up the “disproportionate “argument. I asked what would be considered a “proportionate” response to the murder of 8 people, and haven’t seen an answer. How would you compute it?
Are you sure the Palestinian terrorists are “seeking freedom”? Perhaps they seek to deny my freedom? and my right to live?
I reject any kind of “indiscriminate murder”, by any side. I would condemn any such crime by “my side”, and support an investigation, prosecution and punishment, if proved. That’s because I do value all human life equally, contrary to your accusation. (Though, of course, we all naturally worry most about those closest to ourselves..In any case, thanks for expressing empathy…)
a proportionate response would be:
an investigation, prosecution and punishment, if proved.
jon, just out of curiosity..if ‘your side’ carried out an act like this..say settlers attacking plaestinians, this ‘investigation, prosecution and punishment’ you say you would support..which side do you support carrying out that ‘investigation, prosecution and punishment’ ? the ‘side’ of the victims or the ‘side’ of the perpetrators?
Who has has more civilians die in the past week, jon? Israel? Or Palestine?
Annie, So you think Israel should be able to investigate, prosecute and punish in Gaza? Thanks a lot.
On your question: I would like to see settlers handed over to the PA for justice. Even such a threat would deter them.
I asked what would be considered a “proportionate” response to the murder of 8 people, and haven’t seen an answer. How would you compute it?
How about attacking the perpetrators, as opposed to all of Gaza?
You’re already denying them their freedom and right to live you Zionist dolt. As for your “right” that right doesn’t exist at the expense of Palestinian rights.
Bullshit Jon. You refuse to ever consider crimes on your side. Why else did you automatically assume that the Palestinian victims were human shields?
You’re better at lying to yourself than you are the everyone else.
Extraordinary.
Jon, you continue to argue with willful blindness to reality. The terrorist attack was also a response, to decades of occupation, a strangling siege, a refusal to inch toward a meaningful solution, and to Palestinian dead bodies that far exceed Israeli ones. You pretend that the bus attack was committed in a vacuum, without any provocation. Every day of occupation is provocation, and Israel poses a far greater threat to life than Palestinian “terrorists.”
In addition, you call a murderous retaliation a “response to the attack.” Do you really believe that Israel made any effort to identify culprits and restrict their force against those individuals? If you truly condemn indiscriminate murder by either side, there is no reason to wait for an investigation. The history of such actions by Israel, and this response’s inclusion on that list, is so glaringly obvious that you need not call for an investigation. And by whom? By Barak, who said that Gaza would pay a heavy price? By those who ordered the retaliation? By the UN? Another Goldstone Commission? Wouldn’t we also need an “invesigation” to determine whether the attack on the bus was indiscriminate. Would punishment of Israelis involve summary execution by precision bombs unleashed from the air? I think if you are honest with yourself, you would have to admit that you do not want Israelis and Palestinians held to the same standards.
I did not bring up the “disproportionate” argument, by the way. It would not be acceptable for Israel to kill a single innocent individual in retaliation for this attack, and one for eight would surely pass the proportionality test. The entire “proportionality” argument in my opinion presupposes that it is permissible to take human life based upon ethnicity and nationality as long as the numbers are roughly equivalent. I am aware that the argument is made by many “on my side,” but I am quite hesitant to join it.
Annie, So you think Israel should be able to investigate, prosecute and punish in Gaza? Thanks a lot.
all these little rhetorical tricks just prove you have no interest in constructive dialogue jon.
Jon actually thinks the American folks here who regularly come to MW are like the Fox News audience, totally ignorant of the history of the ME like all the Republican candidates for next POTUS (except for Ron Paul).
Jon confuses the regulars here with the audience for the US country cable TV channel. We are not Earl, nor are we the other tv character played by Jamie Pressley. BTW, guess who writes those scripts?
“BTW, guess who writes those scripts?”
Don’t need to guess: link to en.wikipedia.org
You weren’t suggesting that the reason the characters are so stupid was because they were written by Jews were you? Apart from the overt racism of the implication, I don’t think head writer Greg Garcia would agree with you.
GF, you might enjoy this, which is about My Name Is Earl & in passing, mentions one of the key writers of the show. link to jewishexponent.com
Israel is responding to the horror of Eilat with collective punishment . . . Unfortunately, as long as the United States continues to support Israel’s decades-long practice of illegally appropriating land, destroying homes, and using disproportionate force . . .
The biggest problem is that the United States continues to support Israel’s decades-long practice of using collective punishment against neighboring civilian populations. These types of attacks are not valid acts of State. The responsible individuals, including the Defense Minister and Prime Minister, are acting in the same manner as Sadaam, Gaddafi, or Assad when they carried-out reprisals against members of an ethnic minority populations.
The most “moral” army in the world is pissed cuz it took multiple ambush hits on its military armed personnel and vehicles . How humiliating.
The doors of the ‘Sinai Nightmare’ have been rattling and now they have opened. Yesterday’s attack will not be the last one. The attackers will continue re-hitting the israeli gas pipes there and they will increase their offensive operations against the idf. The increasingly volatile borders there cannot be controlled without a full-on invasion – something that israel knows and it also knows that it cannot afford an invasion in every sense of the word. So like a coward it will retaliate by air-striking at over-populated neighborhoods in Gaza (not in Egypt, the source of the attacks), killing mostly Palestinian civilians, and appeasing the beastly racist zealotry of its political base.
*I’ve just heard on PressTV that israeli air-strikes in Sinai have just killed some Egyptian soldiers and a protest outside the israeli embassy in Cairo is currently taking place with people chanting “Egyptian blood is not cheap, death to israel”. Hmmmm. Predictably, clearly, israel is prepared to stoke bigger multiple fires at its borders.
Yes israel prefers to violently suppress and kill instead of actually addressing the root of this goddam problem: the big fat Occupation.
All Apartheid israel needs now is for Asad to fall and for the Syrian Brotherhood to take over and start agitating at the occupied Golan border.
Then they’ll have two ‘controllable’ corridors left: Jordan, and the Mediterranean Sea.
Boy what a tight mess.
I think they call it Reality – in case any of you zionists are wondering what the nature of this new beast is.
Taxi, Not surprising that you refer to the attacks as being on military personnel and not as vicious terrorist murder of civilians.
The day, colonists like you Jon, condemn the Israeli excuse for it’s vastly disproportionate responses and subsequent high-civilian death count on ‘human shields’ is the day pigs (Zionists) will fly.
Until then, save your indignation.
Cliff,
1. I’m not a “colonist”. I live in my homeland (although I’m presently visiting the US).
2. “Disproportionate”: 8 people were killed in the terrorist attacks near Eilat. I wonder what response you would consider “proportionate”.
3. If the terrorists use their own people as human shields, they must bear a measure of responsibility if those people are harmed.
<blockquote< 1. I'm not a "colonist". I live in my homeland (although I'm presently visiting the US).
You’re living on stolen land. That makes you a colonialist.
Says he who complains about rockets hitting empty buildings while Israel mass murders Palestinians.
So what you’re dating is that you don’t condemn attacks on civilians when Israel does it.
Hey Jon, seeing as IDF were among those killed in Eilat, is it safe to assume the civilians killed were human shields – you know, seeing as the IDF has a human shields policy?
so jon s, those egyptian policeman israel killed yesterday..was that also vicious terrorist murder of civilians?
what about the 2 year old baby? her name was Malik Shaath. can speak her name?
tweet just in
Annie, you know I will never condone any deliberate targetting of innocent civilians, on either side.
Bullshit, jon. You just opened up on this thread saying that the bombing of Gaza that you just did was justified.
Annie, you know I will never condone any deliberate targeting of innocent civilians, on either side.
why are you diverting? you reference vicious terrorist murder of civilians when the victims are israeli. i ask you a question: those egyptian policeman israel killed yesterday..was that also vicious terrorist murder of civilians? what about the 2 year old baby? her name was Malik Shaath.
was that the vicious terrorist murder of malik shaath? or are you going to give me sweet words about how you don’t support her killing? where’s your non-selective wrath, under your pilliow?
israeli victim>vicious terrorist murder of civilians
palestinian victim >“I will never condone any deliberate targeting of innocent civilians”
No need to condone it when you justify it by blaming Hanas for using human shields.
Of course, even that BS assumed that Hamas were to blame, and they have denied responsibility.
Bullshit jon s.
You have no problem stealing and supporting the theft of Palestinian land.
You simply cover up the killing of innocent Palestinians as ‘collateral damage’.
When your side does it, it’s always an accident. Most moral army in the world!
Did your daughter serve in the IDF, jon?
Chaos, Sure, so did I. Your point?
My point is, is your daughter a civilian target? Or is she a soldier? Those children that your country just murdered were definitely not soldiers.
I posted this from Haaretz on another thread, but perhaps it needs to be posted here as well:
link to haaretz.com
see also :
link to haaretz.com
According to the IDF the incident started as an attack against Israeli soldiers, with the intent to take hostages, not one against civilians. From the sketchy details on the attack its just as possible that Israeli civilians were killed as colateral damage in the attack as it is possible that Palestinian civilians killed by the IDF in the “retaliatory strike” were colateral damage.
no wonder some of the early reports claimed there was confusing info. here’s AFP
well their is asolid argument to be made their is no such thing as an Israeli cuvulian because they are all being used to hold occupied territory. sorry jon this is what happens when you invade and steal from other people. they fight back usually hitting the softest targests.
children are children either way. their parents should be ashamed using them in a colonial expansion project but they shouldn’t be held responsible, ever.
pjdude, in other words you justify terrorism, if the victims are Israelis.
Don’t lecture us about terrorism, jon. Your country is attacking both Gazans and Egyptians right now, and you’ve repeatedly committed acts of piracy in the Mediterranean.
Go ahead and tell us again how bombing the King David Hotel was a “military” operation by your reckoning.
And Jon S,
You justify terrorism, if the victims are Palesrinians.
jon s,
Your colonial settler family should be packing and leaving occupied Palestine. It’s not your land. Get out or be forced out. There is NO THIRD ALTERNATIVE.
And by the way, the original surprise multiple ambushes WERE against the idf, including the bus that was blown up by a road-side bomb. Check your facts before your open you lying mouth.
Taxi, We are not “colonial settlers” , Israel is our homeland, and we’re not going anywhere, despite your genocidal fantasy.
The terrorist attacks were directed at civilian vehicles- buses and cars. It’s pretty obvious who’s lying.
See here:
link to haaretz.com
Yes, we can’t have anyone else’s genocidal fantasy interfering with you genocidal fantasy can we Jon?
FTI Jon, links are generally supposed to support your argument. There is nothing in Burston’s piece that suggests ” the terrorist attacks were directed at civilian vehicles- buses and cars. “
Jon, were your parents and your grandparents born in Israel? Hell, were you even born in Israel? Do you have any idea how many times we get the “We are not colonists!” spiel and then we find out the person we’re talking to wasn’t even born in Israel.
And since we’re quoting Ha’aretz, jon, here’s Israel’s official stance on peace: link to haaretz.com
Actually jon, YOU ARE a frigging colonial settler whose violent delusions must NOT be indulged or forgiven.
And actually when the ambush story first broke out, israel itself was reporting the death of 8 of it’s “soldiers” for the first two hours. But I guess israel changed the truth again eh – it does like to give itself those ‘victim’ ‘civilian’ casualty stats eh. BTW the INITIAL STORY WAS THIS: there were two buses that were attacked: the first one was full of idf soldiers being bussed to a holiday resort, and the second bus was also full of idf soldiers who’d come to the aid of the first bus. Both buses were successfully ambushed, the second one by a roadside bomb.
“Israeli propaganda lies:
Look at this: “Israeli officials said six of the eight Israelis killed were civilians, and the other two were soldiers.” Israeli military professional liars and fabricators initially admitted that all those killed were soldiers. Only later they adjusted the news to make this claim. In Israel–I kid you not–an Israeli soldier is counted as a civilian even if he has his weapons on if his shirt is unbuttoned or if his shoe lace is untied or if his cap is not on him. I am not making this up: they use various tricks to make Israeli military casualties be listed as civilian. Israel uses similar lies when it counts its injured: it lists as “injured” those who heard a loud boom or those who were “shocked” by shell explosions” – AngryArab News Agency.
And also jon S you invading azhole, YOU’RE the one ACTUALLY LIVING the “genocidal” lifestyle you frigging unconscionable klepto.
Ashkanazi, you will NEVER EVER be allowed to live in peace on someone else’ land. Go spread the word – make yourself useful.
i’m not clear how your link supports your thesis about ‘who’s lying’.
The attacks were on civilian vehicles, also on the military forces that came to the aid of the civilians. It’s not a matter of “changing the story”. In such incidents there are always initial reports ,which may be inexact, and only later does the full picture come to light.
Civilian buses carry both civilians and soldiers, that doesn’t make them legitimate targets. In the US ,servicemen-and women- sometimes travel on Greyhound buses ,the buses are still civilian , and attacking them would be a terrorist crime.
See here:
link to ynetnews.com
Taxi, what’s with the personal attacks and curses?
Is “Ashkenazi” meant as a racist epithet?
Where’s the “report this comment” function when we need it?
In the US, 1% of the population serve in the US military. In Israel, the great majority of Jewish Israelis are either in the IDF or IDF reservists.
Apples and oranges, jon s.
PS: There’s more Jewish Americans in the IDF than in the US Army or Marines.
The figures for American Jews in the US military range from 1/10th to 2/10th of 1%; here’s the latter figure making the news in 2003: link to aztlan.net
Jon, your daughter was — as is your contention — one of the people “targetted” by the attack. Your daughter is an IDF veteran.
So, that being the case, is your daughter a military target, the same way you consider pretty much any Palestinian male over the age of 15 a military target, in which case your daughter (and you, for much of your life as an Israeli) have been using innocent civilians as “human shields” in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY you accuse Palestinians of doing when you drop bombs on hospitals and schools and apartment blocks.
Or, your daughter is a civilian, in which case so are the people you just bombed in Gaza, in which case the IDF just committed a terrorist attack that is at least as heinous as the one in southern Israel, except it killed and injured more civilians.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t make a separate set of rule for Jews than you do for Arabs. Not without outing yourself as a vile racist, jon.
You and your family are not Arabs and you are by violent force living on occupied Arab territory – so like you’re not the frigging victim here jon S.
No respect is due you and your racist lifestyle.
You’re causing all this death by ACTUALLY LIVING ON OCCUPIED LAND – geddit?!
You are the VERY source of the violence – no ifs and buts and no despicable insinuations will take away from this deplorable fact.
Yet, if Hamas fighters were traveling on a bus in Gaza with civilians, you’d certainly consider it a legitimate target (ie. the civilians collateral damage) or regard those civilians as human shields.
If not, then you would still justify such an attack on the grounds that a proportionate response is meaningless.
What about bombing a police station?
Was the Israeli attack in the police station in Gaza a terrorist crime Jon?
Yes or no?
JPV is correct, as long as the status quo persists continued violence is 100% guaranteed. Of course getting the zionists to understand that simple fact is utterly futile, they will insist that continuing the occupation and using more force to subdue the Palestinians is the only way.