The Reut Institute, an influential Israeli think tank that has lead the way in Israel's fight against "delegitimization," has acknowledged that the recently passed Boycott Law furthers Israel's international isolation rather than combat it. From "The Boycott Law Plays to the Hands of De-legitimizers":
[The organizations' and individuals' promoting this de-legitimization campaign] ability to achieve disproportionate influence, and promote the political assault on Israel, has been due to their success in harnessing liberal and progressive circles in the West. Their strategy in this regard, is to deliberately blur the distinction between de-legitimization, and the legitimate discourse on Israeli government policy. In contrast, the inability of many in Israel and the Diaspora to recognize this critical distinction has only further enhanced the de-legitimizers and increased their influence. This is why legislation which attempts to restrict the actions of parts of Israeli society in their criticism of government policy, only further serves the interests of those seeking to blur the boundaries.
The Boycott Law is, in some sense, the worst of both worlds. The law does not properly address the de-legitimization phenomenon, as the law is territorial in its application and yet the de-legitimization campaign is global, primarily operating beyond Israel's borders. Therefore, those who thought that the law would provide the legal tools to deter those promoting de-legitimization will soon be disappointed. The greater damage of the law, however, is the controversy forming around it. The internal divisions within the Israeli camp have been exacerbated, when in fact; the response to the assault on Israel's legitimacy requires unity. Instead of uniting the major factions within Israeli politics against the de-legitimization threat, the legislation has turned the discourse into a public shouting match where those supporting the government's policy and those opposing it are throwing mud at each other.
Another alarming symptom and consequence of the de-legitimization phenomenon can already be observed in some North American Jewish communities. While in the past Israel was a unifying issue, now Israel is such a polarizing issue that many communities prefer not to address it at all. The Boycott Law, which has already been the subject of much criticism from North American Jewry, certainly does not contribute toward reversing this trend of Israel becoming a factor that divides Jewish communities.
I am not particularly interested in the Boycott Law. I do not see it as the curtailment of a basic democratic freedom or as the slide towards Fascism. Europe, where I live , is also democratic. In Europe a number of countries have criminal (not civil) laws against boycotts. In France you can get up to 3 years in prison for promoting a boycott of Israel.
BTW, Holocaust denial and promoting antisemitism is also illegal in France and most other EU countries. The only non-binding EU definition of antisemitism is here: link to fra.europa.eu
According to this definition not all the comments here are “progressive Jewish”. Some are blatantly antisemitic. No need to worry, the editors will not be arrested if they visit Paris. Well, not yet. There is at the present time no organisation that tries to have promoters of antisemitism arrested when they visit a country where antisemitism is illegal. You know, like the Israeli war criminals. On the other hand, to be on the safe side keep your visit secret.
yes, we all know about the euro definition beauchard
There is at the present time no organisation that tries to have promoters of antisemitism arrested when they visit a country where antisemitism is illegal. You know, like the Israeli war criminals.
nice triple wammy. claim we are promoting anti semitism, imply it compares to pulverizing gazan children , collective punishment and war crimes, dangle the threat of arrest and then “on the safe side keep your visit secret.” recommend we hide.
impressive for a first time poster, you really know how to make an entrance don’t you.
I just love the “we”. Do you mean, we the herd or we the sect. Whatever happened to the “I”. You know, the basis of all being “I am,”or I have an opinion and I stand by it. What’s wrong with being an
individual?
All that “pulverizing Gazan children” and “war crimes”. We must be dealing with real evil here. I have not had the pleasure of reading all your posts, but do you in all your “progressive Jewishness” consider Israelis to be (worse than) Nazis? Do you maintain that “Zionists” want to exterminate the Palestinians? Do you compare Gaza to a Nazi death camp?
Well I must say, the Nazis/Zionists/ Israelis (multiple choice) are not very successful. According to the UN, Gaza life expectancy has risen to 73.4 years . This life expectancy is much higher than e.g. Egypt, Iran, Turkey, Hungary, Lithuania and Latvia.
The imperialists (that covers Nazis, Zionists and Israelis) are not even more successful in the starving of innocents. The Gaza infant mortality rate has dropped to 17.5 per thousand infants. This is much lower than the aforementioned countries. The infant mortality rate in Iran is 30.6. Actually a flotilla to Gaza for pregnant Iranians might be a good idea.
I thought that the main problem now with Gaza was that things cannot get out. Nothing can be exported, so the Gazans remain dependant on handouts and cannot build an economy. Also if you cannot leave a place, it is then a prison. Wow, I might even be a progressive Jew. No, that cannot be, I do not use all the marxist hyperbole and Nazi imagery. So I must be “stupid”, a “bigot”, “racist”, “fascist”, a “hasbara” (I had to look that word up) slave….. I am sure you can think of the rest.
nice diversion bea. by ‘we’ i mean people who read this site and comment on it because it has been discussed here before.
We must be dealing with real evil here.
hasbarists ‘evil’ lingo gets very tiring very fast. so good of you to pose some questions and then answer them yourself. now, if you don’t mind i’m going to get back on topic.
re reut:
Their basic idea is to turn Israel into a pariah state that is totally discredited in the eyes of the world.
frankly i don’t think we have the power to ‘turn israel’ into anything. israel seems to be doing that all on their own which is the point of reuts article re the boycott law. but they shouldn’t stop there. israel has turned itself into a pariah state because normal people the world over don’t like apartheid, don’t like states who engage in flouting international law as a matter fo course, and don’t like war crimes.
reut would be wrong. our ‘basic idea’ is to expose the truth of what’s going on there, the truth speaks for itself. all one has to do is visit the home page of this site to see videos and photos and testimonies of witnesses to this apartheid.
“hasbara” (I had to look that word up)
i’ll just bet you did
;)
Beauchard :
” What’s wrong with being an
individual?”
++++ Better ask this from dimadok. He thinks that there is no individual, all is collective zionism, Israel is first ethnocentric thinking.
“All that “pulverizing Gazan children” and “war crimes”. We must be dealing with real evil here.”
++++ We call them as zionists.
“consider Israelis to be (worse than) Nazis?”
++++ No, and yes. Because we live a year 2011, and after the nazis it was installed few international laws, so that we humans should act little better.
“Do you maintain that “Zionists” want to exterminate the Palestinians?”
++++ No, they just want arabfrei palestine.
“Do you compare Gaza to a Nazi death camp?”
++++ No. Nazis tried to exterminate jewish population. Israel does same ( camp ), because they are “defending” themselves.
“Well I must say, the Nazis/Zionists/ Israelis (multiple choice) are not very successful. According to the UN, Gaza life expectancy has risen to 73.4 years . This life expectancy is much higher than e.g. Egypt, Iran, Turkey, Hungary, Lithuania and Latvia.”
++++ And what else UN says ? Severe malnutrition ? That this blockade is illegal ? etc.
“I thought that the main problem now with Gaza was that things cannot get out. Nothing can be exported, so the Gazans remain dependant on handouts and cannot build an economy. Also if you cannot leave a place, it is then a prison. Wow, I might even be a progressive Jew. No, that cannot be, I do not use all the marxist hyperbole and Nazi imagery. So I must be “stupid”, a “bigot”, “racist”, “fascist”, a “hasbara” (I had to look that word up) slave….. I am sure you can think of the rest.”
++++ If you think that you are all of those, well, its your choice. Good luck !
Beauchard, by your second post, you have now gone onto the second level of Hasbarism.
1. Bringing out the Nazi card to ridicule the the portrayal of the siege on Gaza and killing of civilians in an act of revenge or punishment. This is nothing new. The Russians brutalized and murdered Germans in revenge. The Nazi’s brutalized Poles and the Jewish community living in the Warsaw Ghetto out of revenge (when they were only defending themselves and fighting for their humanity.) And yes, the Israeli’s have justified the killing of Palestinian civilians as revenge, who also fight for their humanity. And there were revenge lynchings of black Americans by racists ignorant whites. This is what the powerful do to the powerless, and yes, it IS EVIL as you say.
2. Then the use of statistics (without citing a source) as if that makes a fact; as if infant mortality tells us the true complete state. Has the birth rate also gone down? You are a Phd, a learned person who conducts research (another Hasbarism, used to establish authority of your person over others) you must know, especially using such statistics for tactics of debate.
3. Diverting the subject to Iran, using comparisons. Look, quick over there. It is even worse. So it is not so bad here? Everyone else does it…..blah blah.
4. Ridicule to demean and minimize, even degrade. I thought that the main problem now with Gaza was that things cannot get out. Nothing can be exported, so the Gazans remain dependent on handouts and cannot build an economy. Also if you cannot leave a place, it is then a prison. Wow, I might even be a progressive Jew….“stupid”, a “bigot”, “racist”, “fascist”, a “hasbara” (I had to look that word up)
You called yourself those things and claimed that you had to look up a word in common use. All that education……and
Well I must say, the Nazis/Zionists/ Israelis (multiple choice) are not very successful. According to the UN, Gaza life expectancy has risen to 73.4 years.
The UN also has a fact-finding report which said that Operation Cast Lead had rendered those estimates unreliable in about 1,400 cases. I’ve noticed that you are publicly condoning, denying, and grossly trivializing war crimes and crimes against humanity directed toward the inhabitants of Gaza. That’s a criminal offense in the EU which is identical in nature to the offense described in the draft definition of antisemitism you wrote about elsewhere.
So I must be “stupid”, a “bigot”, “racist”, “fascist”, a “hasbara” (I had to look that word up) slave
I’d agree with all of that. Stick with your first impressions, they aren’t always wrong.
Our newbie starts off with:
I just love the “we”. Do you mean, we the herd or we the sect. Whatever happened to the “I”. You know, the basis of all being “I am,”or I have an opinion and I stand by it. What’s wrong with being an individual?
As Ph D in political science I would presume that your are aware of conventions of dialog. The “we” in this case is informing you that we have already been introduced to that question. It is not a denial of individuality nor is it even an acknowledgment that we even agree on what it means.
Is this a sign that you are simply stupid (that Ph D does not preclude that possibility) or are you just trolling and stirring stuff?
You got bigger problems Beau than us anti semites here.
You’re folks are getting in bed with some real dangerous characters.
You need to worry about the new Zionist and European right wing fascist alliance instead.
Race and nationalist ‘purist’ movements don’t stop at just one group of ‘others’.
After they have cleaned out the Muslims, and the zionist and Israel have served their temporary purpose, then cleaning out the other semities, the Jews, will be the next.
It’s mind blowing really that zionist are so stupid they think can ride this European right wing tiger without ending up in the tigers mouth themselves.
Wise up.
link to spiegel.de
The Likud Connection
Europe’s Right-Wing Populists Find Allies in Israel
Beauchard, with this first post here you attempt to discredit posters and the site by saying (concerning posters) Some are blatantly antisemitic.
I still do not know what antisemitism is regarding Jews, as Judaism has nothing more to do with Semitism than …say, Christianity. (But that is another subject)
So concerning blatantly anti Jewish posting, please cite concrete examples. There is an archive and I am sure you have some specifics in mind. Please share.
Question? would anti Arab postings on many of the sites around the net also be considered criminal and Anti Semitic in France? Or Germany or Austria?
You know, like the Israeli war criminals. On the other hand, to be on the safe side keep your visit secret.
You forgot to mention that it is a criminal offense to publicly condone, deny or grossly trivialize crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes as defined in the Statute of the International Criminal Court (Articles 6, 7, and 8) and crimes defined in Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal, when that conduct is carried out to incite violence or hatred against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined on the basis of race, colour, descent, religion or belief, or national or ethnic origin – even when that is done by a visiting Israeli Cabinet Minister discussing Palestinians in Gaza and Operation Cast Lead; the 2004 Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice; & etc. — See the Summaries of EU Legislation on the Framework decision on combating racism and xenophobia
Both the EU and State Department definition of antisemitism attempt to shield the State of Israel from discussions about similarities to Nazi Germany. Anyone familiar with the history of internal Zionist discourse and the great Knesset debates knows that this item has no place in a “working definition” of antisemitism:
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
When Ben Gurion’s political career as Prime Minister came to an end in 1963, he gave a speech in the Knesset excoriating and naming members of the political right and the Herut party for their support and admiration of Hitler after his early successes. Oddly enough, the Revisionist paper, Chazit Ha’am, had announced that Nazism was a national liberation movement and that Hitler had saved Germany from Communism – just before it reversed its editorial position and accused Chaim Arlosoroff of collaborating with the Nazis. Years later Judge Halevi allowed the Gruenvald libel trial to be turned into a political trial on the behavior of the Labor Party during the War. He noted that Dr. Rudolph Kastner, a MAPAI party official, “had sold his soul to the devil” and collaborated with the Nazis. Compare:
*Steven E. Aschheim, Hannah Arendt in Jerusalem, University of California Press, 2001, page 233;
*Lenni Brenner, Zionist-Revisionism: The Years of Fascism and Terror, Journal of Palestine Studies Vol. 13, No. 1 (Autumn, 1983), pp. 66-92, link to jstor.org
*Yechiam Weitz, Taking Leave of the ‘Founding Father’ Ben-Gurion’s Resignation as Prime Minister in 1963, Middle Eastern Studies
Vol. 37, No. 2 (Apr., 2001), pp. 131-152,
link to jstor.org
The US State Department made a similarly vacuous statement:The demonization of Israel, or vilification of Israeli leaders, sometimes through comparisons with Nazi leaders, and through the use of Nazi symbols to caricature them, indicates an anti-Semitic bias rather than a valid criticism of policy concerning a controversial issue.
link to state.gov
Somehow, I doubt that the EU would prevail in court if it accused the New York Times of engaging in antisemitism when it published the letter from Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, et al explaining that the Herut party, Menachim Begin, and Irgun Zvai Leumi had an organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal akin to the Nazi and Fascist parties. link to archive.org
The official reports from the British High Commissioner in Palestine discussed the terror tactics used by the Jewish military and compared the coverage in the Hebrew press to the Nazis:
The official documentary history of major US foreign policy decisions, published by the US State Department, contains many discussions about the undesirability of establishing a separate Jewish State in Palestine. For example, US Ambassador Henry F. Grady co-authored the Grady-Morrison Plan based upon the report of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry. There are also discussions about the hostility toward the claims of superior Jewish rights in the region:
Hanna Arendt wrote about the cultural and legal similarities between Israel and Nazi Germany:
The MKs on the Knesset Constitution and Legislation Committee still claim that the unequal or superior rights of the Jews must be preserved in any future Constitution and the Israeli press routinely reports that Israel’s laws are fascist.
link to haaretz.com
link to haaretz.com
Thank you Hostage.
And thank you for taking the time to post and write here.
And thank you for taking the time to post and write here.
Thanks, but wild horses couldn’t drag me away from some of these discussions.
wild horses, i like that
“Some are blatantly antisemitic.”
Oh crap, sorry, sorry, I don’t know what I said or did, but I’m sorry. Couldn’t you just say it was a slip, or I mis-spoke, or something?
I didn’t mean it, I’m sure.
“harnessing liberal and progressive circles in the West”. by ‘west’ do they mean the western world? it sounds like reut has come to the same conclusion as cyclonbabe
harnessed huh. wow. impressive.
Well, it might be interesting to know where the Reut people think the boundary between legitimate and illegitimate critique of Israel lies. Is it that you’re allowed to oppose ‘the Occupation’ – what happened in/resulted from 67 – but not what happened in/resulted from ’48?
I read your post and was inadvertently struck by the fact that you not only saw yourself as a spokesperson for all the posters here but also for all “normal people the world over”. For some reason I had to think about the closed minds of fanatics. What is a closed mind? Well something that sees all who disagree with it as part of a conspiracy. Perhaps it is just arrogance and a problem with relationships.
I was also thinking of people who are afraid to have an individual opinion and always hide behide the “we”. However, I have a doctorate in Political Science not Psychology.
You need not reply. This is my last post. With all respect, the comments here are a bit one-dimensional and intellectually speaking not very challenging.
Well, that was indeed quick, LOL.
I guess ‘they’ don’t make ‘em like they used to.
i’ll say!
i’ll say. i guess he didn’t want to discuss the topic.
Thank you very much. I am trying to make the same argument, only to be called fascist pig with intent to murder innocent people. I am not ashamed who I am or of any part of my personal history. Yet,when confronted here with my views comments become extremely aggressive and verbally abusive.
As for the logic and using the facts, rather than political agendas-it is a lost cause, although it never stops surprising me.
cheer up dim. robert came along and sang your praises . you can’t expect to win everyone over.
got anything to say on the topic of the post?
I’m sorry Annie-who’s Robert?
sorry dim, i thought your earlier lament was in relation to robert’s comment on another thread.
“Yadayadayada…..I am trying to make the same argument, only to be called fascist pig with intent to murder innocent people yadayadayada….”
Somehow I missed the “pig” part.
Who called you that? Its certainly not the animal I would have chosen, but then, I grew up on a mountain ranch, not a farm.
Pigs make lousy pack animals.
Dim a dok, who called you a “fascist pig.” with intent to murder? Where is that poster, when did that happen?
Please back up such an accusation by “hard facts.”
Hold on a second! I’ve never called you a “pig.” That would be an insult to porcine species worldwide.
. “I am not ashamed who I am or of any part of my personal history.”
A sociopath never is.
It’s not that you’re part of a conspiracy.
It’s that your arguments are so similar to other Zionists that we’ve seen them already in one form or that other. It’s tiring to hear the same B.S. about everything related to criticizing Israel equaling antisemitism.
You take the physical hardships of the Palestinians and sweep them aside to focus on your self-centered pathology (antisemitism).
Last time I checked, Israel refers to itself as ‘the Jewish homeland’. In spite of having a 20% Arab minority and controlling the lives of millions of Arabs through decades long military occupation.
By ‘we’, annie is referring to the anti-Zionist community on Mondoweiss. There is a group of regular commentators here.
Your lame attempt at psycho-analysis aside, we should probably cut the introductions and get to the topic at hand. It’s like every new Zionist poster here has to make a big scene in the first post or so.
Get over yourself. Your arguments are simplistic and hinge on your self-centered world-view.
By ‘we’, annie is referring to the anti-Zionist community on Mondoweiss.
actually i was referencing more than that. zios all across the innertubes have been humping that euro definition for awhile now so i kinda assumed everyone had seen it. but maybe not.
will everyone who has not heard about the euro defintion of anti semitism please raise your hand.
maybe i am wrong. maybe there are posters here who have not heard of it. anyway, poor bea thought i had entered an opinion on it, which i did not. merely pointing out it’s old news which i suppose could be seen as an opinion. everything’s relative!
“However, I have a doctorate in Political Science not Psychology.”
Aren’t you the same guy who was also an international law expert?
Maybe next time you’re here you can have degree in Psychology.
“Aren’t you the same guy who was also an international law expert?
Maybe next time you’re here you can have degree in Psychology.”
I’d trade all those advanced degrees for the capacity to “learn from history”, like Hophmi.
I think I once may have had it, but apparently it went away.
Beauchard: “ This is my last post. With all respect, the comments here are a bit one-dimensional and intellectually speaking not very challenging.”
You should at least wait for Richard Witty to comment before passing judgment. He’s sure to be along soon.
Thanks for the chuckle! Great retort.
water seeks it’s own level
“water seeks it’s own level”
Or, as Kruschev was purported to say in MAD’s “East Side Story”:
‘Whether the water in the bowl is salt or fresh…’
Beauchard is inaccurate. There is no law in France against anti-Israeli boycotts. There is a law against racist incitements, but there is no precedent as yet to apply it to a call to boycott Israeli products. There was a piece of news about trial of four BDS activists, and there will be a sentence in October. The guilty verdict does not seem likely, but in any case, it will hinge on the wording of the boycott appeal, not on the fact that it was a boycott appeal.
If you look at that comment, it is exactly what the Reut Institute is doing. It is a technique used in the popular press, and involves denying something nobody had thought of in the first place and thus putting it onto the table anyway. “In a statement issued by his office Mark Regev emphatically denies that he was dancing barefoot in Trafalgar Square in the early hours of Sunday morning.”
There are indeed people who seek to de-legitimise Israel and there are also those who question Israeli government policy. There are also those who are privately or publicly disturbed by the acts of both individual Israelis and collective groups of them. There are also anti-Semites. However, it is the Zionists and their advocates who conflate them just as they do with legitimate criticism and anti-Semitism. The real purpose of this is to divert attention from what is actually happening on the ground and unfortunately it works more often than not.