‘Are there any Palestinians unaffected by the occupation?’ I ask him

Israel/Palestine
on 70 Comments

I’ve been in Israel and Palestine for a few days now and wanted to get down a few impressions.

Overlord

I’m walking through the Old City, on a crowded lane moving toward the Damascus Gate, when I jostle a young Palestinian woman. She glances up at me and then steps away and the expression in her eyes is pure fear. It is clear that she is afraid that I can hurt her. In my khakis and black t-shirt, I evidently registered as Israeli. I have heard Palestinians at forums in the States talk about this– I was afraid of anyone wearing a yarmulke, because these were people who abused us and hurt us. Now I have seen it for myself; and it’s a rancid feeling.

Modesty & immodesty

I go into one of the West Jerusalem hotels designed by Moshe Safdie to ask the concierge about bus schedules when out the plate glass window a vision in white passes down the road. She’s middle-aged, with long streaked blonde hair fanning out over her shoulders, and tight white pants, a tank top. She loves her body and is happy to share this love with others. And of course I like it. Even in the States you might think she was dressed a little inappropriately but this is Israel and it has a bold physical culture, and yes I find it captivating. Israel is unencumbered.

Later I am on a bus in East Jerusalem with women in traditional dress and girls getting on and off the bus after school. I am struck by how much more conservative East Jerusalem and the West Bank have become just in the last year. You used to see more girls with their hair showing; now almost all the girls are covered.

I realize that their behavior is related to the free spirit in Mamilla (near the stolen Muslim cemetery). We talk all the time about self-determination. These people have no self-determination. Later I will write more about the actual experiences of occupation; but take my word, it seeps down into every pore and cranny of life, it robs people of dignity and control. So you would do this too. You would do the opposite of your oppressor. You would revert to traditional dress, you would embrace your religion if you were so colonized. You would grab on to the only zone of being that you control and make a declaration about who you are.

Then the vision in white turns a little grotesque to me. Oh yes I like it, I would like to be on the beach in Tel Aviv. But there is some cultural arrogance in it too, some disrespect for indigenous people’s ways.

More manners

I’m out for a late drink with two women friends. One is Mizrahi Israeli now living overseas. The other is a veteran Jewish Jerusalem activist. They recognize an Israeli activist across the room and when his party gets up to go, the veteran goes over to invite him to our table. He says he has a few minutes. He sits down with one leg up on the chair arm, spreadeagled, and proceeds to hold forth for a half hour. There is a little conversation, but not much. He is holding court, and rudely. I am sure he has insecurities, don’t we all, and maybe he is also flirting with the young Mizrahi woman by putting out his package like a baboon. But when I recount the story to other Israelis later they agree that he was behaving very Israeli. The famous rudeness, sometimes it fails to charm.

Palestinian statehood

I go up to Nablus and a village in the Jordan Valley for the night and get the impression of broad popular support for the statehood initiative in the occupied West Bank. A man comes up to me in a mosque–I am there with another American who speaks Arabic– and clubbing me affectionately says, Give us our state, when are you going to give us our state. The village held a rally for the state and 1000 people came, the mayor tells me, and there are flags all over the place a week later.

My American friend says that Nablus was jammed for the Abbas speech and the people were enthused. We meet a professor who opposes statehood for the same reason that my activist friends in Ramallah do– fear about compromising the right of return– but he concedes that Abbas now has prestige approaching Arafat’s because he mentioned apartheid three times in the speech. This man cannot deny the groundswell of support. People want an end to occupation. They see statehood as granting them dignity and a means of removing the hateful presence of the occupier.

On a side note: The highlight of the statehood rally was Neturei Karta, the orthodox Jewish group. We are the real Palestinian Jews, they declare, and held up a sign saying 193. Everyone else is holding up signs saying 194; Palestinians want to be the 194th state in the United Nations. But Neturei Karta does not recognize Israel, which would make Palestine 193. My American friend says that the Palestinian Authority would arrest any Palestinian making this kind of argument, but that night it got giant applause.

Qalandiya

I am riding the bus from Ramallah to Jerusalem, from one section of occupied territory to another, when the young man next to me strikes up a conversation in perfect English. He is obviously affluent. He wears designer sunglasses. He has a dry sense of humor and doesn’t try to charm. He teases the others in the back rows. He is small and self-possessed. You see compact guys like this on Wall Street, or reporting on it. It turns out he has a family business in the Old City. Here at last is a Palestinian who has little to complain about.

Are there any Palestinians who are not affected by the occupation? I ask him.

He gives me a look. No. Every one of us is affected by it…. I have no nationality. How can Americans understand this. I have i.d., but I’m not Israel, I’m not Palestine. What am I?

You work with Israelis?

Of course, he says. All the time.

And how do you like them?

I hate them, he says. They took my country. I lost my family. I lost a lot of my friends. But we have always to smile. To don’t show them that we are afraid of them.

We come to the checkpoint and it is half an hour to get through the galvanized cattle chutes. I wish I could take out my camera to get a picture of the pretty adolescent girl balanced in the floor to ceiling turnstile, chattering with friends as she waits for the soldiers to hit the buzzer and let three more bodies through. But I’m afraid to have it out.

I think of saying L’shana tova, Happy new year, to the four young soldiers sitting in the box on Rosh Hashana, to not forget that they are human, but the plexiglas is thick and there is no communicating. They bark at me. Visa!

My group of three consists of me, a schoolboy and his mother. The boy is 14, with an insignia on his shirt, and he is in command of our party. The tray failed to go through the X-ray machine. He signals to the guards and then rushes back through the metal detector to push it in. Then he waits as it comes out the other side, filled with our commingled effects. His pants are hanging down because his belt is in there, but first things first– he scoops out my water bottle and hands it to me. Then my sunglasses, and then reaches into the machine to get my backpack. I walk away with my eyes misting. It is what always happens at Qalandiya. Every Zionist in America should have to go through these chutes before they talk to people about the achievements of the Jewish state.

It is no time to reflect. The boy summons me to follow him out the next turnstile. The next group of three can’t come in till we have gone. And there’s a long line today.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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70 Responses

  1. john h
    September 30, 2011, 3:38 am

    Another telling story of normality in the safe haven; thanks so much, Phil.

    So many things grabbed my attention. Here’s just three.

    “I jostle a young Palestinian woman. She glances up at me and then steps away and the expression in her eyes is pure fear. It is clear that she is afraid that I can hurt her.

    I have heard Palestinians at forums in the States talk about this– I was afraid of anyone wearing a yarmulke, because these were people who abused us and hurt us. Now I have seen it for myself; and it’s a rancid feeling.”

    “I wish I could take out my camera to get a picture of…But I’m afraid to have it out.”

    “Every Zionist in America should have to go through these chutes before they talk to people about the achievements of the Jewish state.”

    • yourstruly
      October 1, 2011, 9:35 am

      walking down a crowded street in port-au-prince during the days of the infamous papa “doc” duvalier about a half-century ago, i had a similar experience of accidently jostling a young woman on a crowded street. she was carrying an infant. she looked at me with that expression of fear that phil describes. i didn’t think that she was afraid that i might hurt her or her infant, but that one of the ton ton macouts (president-for-life papa doc’s paramilitary enforcers) would. indeed, across the street a macout stood scowling menacingly at her. oh my, have i gotten her in trouble, i thought? tourists being a rare comnodity in haiti back then, what with the plight of the natives there always so desperate, and with poverty written on almost every face (not exactly what a tourist looking for relief from his/her own tribulations might be seeking). not wanting to see this woman punished for upsetting a lone tourist, i tried to stare down the ton ton macout, figuring that rather than creating a bad scene in front of one of the few tourists in town, he’d back down, which he did. but to this day i can still see the look that this young woman flashed at me. it wasn’t a look that came out of the blue, had to be based on prior terrifying experiences. that it was elicited so easily spoke for recurring terror, the terror of every day life.

  2. seafoid
    September 30, 2011, 5:51 am

    “Even in the States you might think she was dressed a little inappropriately but this is Israel and it has a bold physical culture, and yes I find it captivating. Israel is unencumbered.”

    You must go to Eilat. Fluorescent stretch fabrics and obesity with the brown red mountains in the distance. Screaming these people are alien.

  3. seafoid
    September 30, 2011, 5:56 am

    “You would do the opposite of your oppressor. You would revert to traditional dress, you would embrace your religion if you were so colonized. You would grab on to the only zone of being that you control and make a declaration about who you are.”

    All over the world men are wondering how to answer to the chaos of the world outside.
    A man can do little about the chaos but at least he can control his wife.
    In the US you would vote Tea Party and go deeper into dispensationalism.
    In Israel you would vote Shas and go religious.

  4. Steve Macklevore
    September 30, 2011, 6:08 am

    The kindness and wonderful friendliness of the Palestinians is such a contrast to the shocking rudeness of Israelis. I believe many people, even those sympathetic to Israel notice this, but few come out and say it, because it smacks of racism and seems so trivial.

    It’s actually not trivial at all – I’ve seen Israelis on holiday manage to turn the entire staff of a hotel against them in a few days, simply because they don’t seem to realise how unpleasant and ungracious they are. It’s so very strange.

    • Mooser
      September 30, 2011, 12:13 pm

      “simply because they don’t seem to realise how unpleasant and ungracious they are.”

      Now, let me think, where have I seen something similar? It was in the comment section of a blog I read a lot, but I just can’t remember the name of it…

      • Mooser
        September 30, 2011, 12:13 pm

        Yes, yes, I know, we all hated you before you got here.

    • Henry Norr
      September 30, 2011, 2:41 pm

      Ah yes, the rudeness. My first visit to Israel was in 1960, when I was 14. I had no particular political critique at that time, but I hated the place – precisely because so many people were so obnoxious. I had no desire to go back there ever again, and in fact I didn’t until 2002, when my partner and I cancelled a long-planned vacation in Greece and went instead to volunteer with the International Solidarity Movement in Gaza….

      • Citizen
        September 30, 2011, 5:53 pm

        Why does the statement that the chosen ones are obnoxious keep coming up through out Western history? Why does Larry David satirize it on Curb, as if he was a German Jew in Weimar Germany making fun of his cousins from the East?

  5. pabelmont
    September 30, 2011, 7:38 am

    I don’t really have any idea where the rudeness of Israelis (so often mentioned that I don’t doubt it) comes from. So I imagine it comes from the decisions, taken before 1945, before 1930, to take for themselves what they want by force. If you prepare yourself to ride rough-shod over the “other”, you must, so I imagine, change your own character generally, even in relations with people who are not “other”, so Israelis would — by this reckoning — be rude to each other as well. “What I want, I take.”

    But perhaps I am entirely wrong. Was rudeness a feature of life among the Jews who came to Palestine in the period 1900-1930? A feature of their lives before they arrived? Did it come from Poland? Is it, perhaps, a letting-go after millenia of being an under-class people in Europe, a people afraid of Poles and Cossacks and the like, a people whose measure of “being free at last” is to become ubermenschen, conquerors, top-dogs, “look at me” folks? Were kindness and politeness and consideration for others considered to be “baggage” of the bad old days, baggage thrown overboard in the freedom of arrival in Palestine?

    Anyone know the history of this rudeness, this happy savagery? Any Israelis care to comment?

    • seafoid
      September 30, 2011, 8:20 am

      I don’t think you can run a civilian occupation over the border where brutality and cruelty come as standard and expect society on the other side of the border to get by without any after effects. I don’t think you can run an educational system that is designed to feed children into the military that runs the occupation to produce well balanced and empathetic children.

      link to rightlivelihood.org

      “There was the story about Abraham and the burial site for Sarah. Ephron the Hittite refuses money. Abraham insists on paying. After a long and beautiful exchange, Ephron winds it up: “The land is worth four hundred shekels of silver. What is that betwixt me and thee?” (Genesis 23). Rachel told the children that this is still the Bedouin way of doing business, leading up to the deal in a civilized manner.
      After the lesson, Rachel asked the teacher of the parallel class how she explained this episode to her pupils. “I told them that this is typical Arab hypocrisy! They are all born liars! If he wanted money, why didn’t he say so directly?””

    • Shmuel
      September 30, 2011, 8:25 am

      Any Israelis care to comment?

      I think it has a lot to do with the early Zionist immigrant ethos of rebellion against “diaspora” Jewish life – including social norms. This became idealised in the image of the straight-talking “sabra”, with no time or patience for etiquette and ceremony. Subsequent waves of immigration were encouraged to give up their “diaspora” ways and adopt Israeli names and an Israeli identity that often views politeness and respect as signs of weakness (two very civilised cultures that immediately come to mind are those of the Yemenite and Ethiopian immigrants). Parents don’t always manage to adapt, but kids usually do.

      And a couple of anecdotes:

      When I first arrived in Israel (straight into a religious boarding school), my “Anglo-Saxon” manners were ridiculed, and a well-meaning classmate even took me aside to give me a lecture on the “hypocrisy of manners”.

      I was once standing at a bus stop in Jerusalem, and when the (crowded) bus arrived, I heard an American woman say to her kids, “We’re in Israel now. You have to push!”

      • Newclench
        September 30, 2011, 8:50 am

        Don’t go too far in generalizing. There’s a class privilege aspect to this as well, where educated/well-off Israelis enjoy the same patronizing sensibility as folks on this thread.
        What Shmuel said sounds right, but also Israel has seen a lot of ‘working class’ folks acquire the means to buy cars, travel abroad, and consume the trappings of success without having first become acculturated to middle class norms. This happens in many places, and results in complaints about bad drivers, lack of class, grasping/me-first behavior, etc. It generally dissipates after you AND your surroundings become more firmly middle class.
        Israeli directness, btw, shouldn’t be seen in the same light as Israeli rudeness. There is much to respect about the norm of directness and absence of pretense, esp. after spending time in places where it is relatively rare.

      • Mooser
        September 30, 2011, 12:18 pm

        “It generally dissipates after you AND your surroundings become more firmly middle class”

        So why don’t you ask the people in the tents (the protestors) if that is what is happening in Israel. According to them, things are getting worse, aren’t they?

      • Newclench
        September 30, 2011, 12:48 pm

        Mooser, I’m using the term ‘middle class’ very loosely. Things are getting worse for most, better for a small elite. But many who are doing poorly have already been ‘middle classified’ in terms of culture and self perception. It’s also unfair to assume that the rude divide is purely along class or ethnic lines. But still…. my family was the kind that considered most other Israelis to be pushy and rude. And there were lots like us.

      • Mooser
        October 1, 2011, 7:36 pm

        “But still…. my family was the kind that considered most other Israelis to be pushy and rude. And there were lots like us.”

        My God, you must be one unbearable son-of-a-whatnot. I mean, I’ve only seen you in print and I’ve learned to despise you. Thank God I don’t have to put up with you or your crass, pushy, grasping family in real life!

      • Elliot
        September 30, 2011, 9:20 pm

        I agree with Shmuel’s analysis of early Zionism as a rebellion. My reading of th ethos of the early Zionists is that of an adolescent rebellion. The early adopters of Zionism in Palestine were mostly kids who had run away form home. They were overwhelmingly in their teens or early twenties. The energy and content of their mission is best understood as an example of an adolescent/student protest.
        Whereas their parents strove to be successful cityfolk, they ran off into the boonies, eschewing material success. The high idealism and daring of the founding fathers is also something that is usually associated with young people.
        In the early 20th century, the first kibbutznikim were lampooned for their loose sexual morals by the older generation of Palestinian Jews.
        The character of the founding generation had a lasting imprint on Israeli society.

        Then there is also the ugly side of adolescence:
        - I’m smarter than you.
        - Give me my allowance and shut up.
        - I’ll take your money but will resent you at the same time.

        Netanyahu, and Israelis generally, hold these obnoxious attitudes towards the US government that funds them and the US Jewish community that loves them (and bankrolls them).

        I think the sexism that Phil reported is connected to the machismo of the frontier and militaristic mindset.

        I agree with Newsclench that there is a class component too. The rude behavior that Phil witnessed in the company of the two women would not be acceptable in all parts of society. However, the chauvinism towards Palestinians and disdain for all things Jewish that are not Israeli is pretty universal.

    • piotr
      September 30, 2011, 9:04 am

      I do not think so. The standards of politeness are different in Poland and USA, people smile less, and polite answer to “how are you” is “so-so” — you should not brag that you are doing great. Neither family accounts nor literature refer to Jews as rude.

      Also, it is a misconception that Jews were underclass.

      OTOH, I was told by a girl from a mixed Polish-Russian family who was raised in Russia that for the first month in Poland she thought that everyone was angry at her. Then she figured out that this is pronounciation: vowels clipped or missing, no elongation, much less palatalization — and Russians speak that way when they want to be rude, as in “get out of here”, “what do you want”.

      One can theorize that when immigrants from various places were together, Poles could be perceived as (a) dominating group, (b) rude, (c) object of emulation.

      One of the more hilarious stories in Ha’aretz was about natives in Tel-Aviv complaining that tourists from France are rude. Godzilla versus Mothra comes to mind.

    • Mooser
      September 30, 2011, 12:16 pm

      “Anyone know the history of this rudeness, this happy savagery? Any Israelis care to comment?”

      There’s nothing special about it, I would bet it’s common to every colonial society. Try looking at the Anglo-Indians, French colonists, the Spanish Empire, you name it.

  6. Richard Witty
    September 30, 2011, 7:55 am

    Good post.

    And interviews in Israel?

  7. Kris
    September 30, 2011, 9:14 am

    Thank you, this is a beautiful post.

  8. Kathleen
    September 30, 2011, 9:24 am

    Phil “when I jostle a young Palestinian woman”

    Does this mean you “jostled” her by just walking by? Or was there physical contact?
    ————————————————

    Phil “- I was afraid of anyone wearing a yarmulke, because these were people who abused us and hurt us.”

    Did you have a yarmulke on? Or just your khakis and black t shirt?
    ——————————————————

    Phil “Even in the States you might think she was dressed a little inappropriately but this is Israel and it has a bold physical culture, and yes I find it captivating. Israel is unencumbered.”

    “bold physical culture….Israel is unencumbered” You can say that again
    ———————————————-

    Phil “I am sure he has insecurities, don’t we all, and maybe he is also flirting with the young Mizrahi woman by putting out his package like a baboon. But when I recount the story to other Israelis later they agree that he was behaving very Israeli. The famous rudeness, sometimes it fails to charm.”

    I have heard many friends who travel internationally a great deal say that this is common knowledge and a very common opinion of Israeli’s in Thailand, Vietnam, India, Australia etc. I have heard world travelers talk about this “Israeli arrogance in other countries” and disrespect for other cultures that they are traveling in for four decades.
    ———————————————————————
    Phil “My American friend says that Nablus was jammed for the Abbas speech and the people were enthused. We meet a professor who opposes statehood for the same reason that my activist friends in Ramallah do– fear about compromising the right of return– but he concedes that Abbas now has prestige approaching Arafat’s because he mentioned apartheid three times in the speech. This man cannot deny the groundswell of support. People want an end to occupation”

    Thanks for this. One program on NPR they were interviewing several young Palestinians who were in total support of a ONE STATE SOLUTION. Wondering what the percentage of Palestinians who are leaning or being pushed this way by the facts on the ground.
    ———————————————————————–
    Phil “Then my sunglasses, and then reaches into the machine to get my backpack. I walk away with my eyes misting. It is what always happens at Qalandiya. Every Zionist in America should have to go through these chutes before they talk to people about the achievements of the Jewish state. ”

    Thanks. Staying human. How often have you been through one of these check points? Did the Israeli soldiers look at you in odd ways? Were they aware that you were observing their behavior?

  9. Kathleen
    September 30, 2011, 9:41 am

    Read this one a few years ago. The light bulbs in this young ladies head were turned on
    link to indypendent.org

    “DISCOVERING ISRAELI APARTHEID

    I grew up in a secular, socially progressive household. My father and his parents identified closely with Judaism, but for reasons that had little to do with organized religious practice or Zionism. Rather, they identified suffering of any sort – especially their own – as a distinctly Jewish experience, and attributed their superstition about provoking bad luck to their old-world Jewish background.

    It was only when my stepmother initiated our membership in a liberal reform synagogue that I became actively curious about Jewish history, religious practice, and the modern state of Israel. This was an interest that I pursued through college.

    As I traveled throughout Israel – that is, on the inside of the 1948 green line – I was struck how the Israeli government’s racist policies, such as the systemic denial of state resources to communities of Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, infected even the most routine activities. It was small incidents that made clear the consequences of this unjust system. Getting kicked out of a store while shopping with a dark-skinned friend and hearing the Hebrew University program director discuss the importance of avoiding Arab neighborhoods in his orientation speech shattered the notion that Israel was a safe haven, even for the people to whom I felt closest – like my friend who was ejected from the jewelry store.

    One of the most memorable moments was my cousin’s pained description of her husband’s military service in Gaza. The husband chose to go after much internal moral wrangling. But his service was ultimately a good thing, my cousin justified, because unlike many of the soldiers, he was compassionate, allowing pregnant women to pass quickly through checkpoints. In light of the racism I had witnessed, her reasoning was horribly distressing – even more so because I respected her political involvement with antioccupation movements like Women in Black and liked her personally.

    I vowed at that moment never to sacrifice basic logic to quell discomfort over my own privilege.

    A year later, in 2000, the current Intifada erupted. I joined a group of Jewish activists in New York to form Jews Against the Occupation (JATO) to work in solidarity with politically likeminded organizations. We understood “solidarity” to mean that we would take the lead from our Palestinian allies in defining the terms of a movement that would lead to justice for the people of the region. My cousin’s explanation of her husband’s military service underscored the need for the oppressed to shape the struggle – after all, the vast majority of Palestinians were demanding an end to the occupation, not a more compassionate occupying army.

    JUDAISM YES, ZIONISM NO

  10. David Samel
    September 30, 2011, 10:06 am

    Phil, thanks for the fascinating observations. I look forward to the next installment.

    As for rudeness, I know very few Israelis, and have never found any of them to be rude (with perhaps one exception), although they commonly complain that other Israelis are. (Same with Parisians, by the way.) One Israeli told me that her brother was a flight attendant on El Al and hated his job because of Israelis’ rudeness, and I’ve heard other similar stories from my Israeli cousins, who are personally very lovely. Who knows? It seems to me a very subjective impression.

    • RobertB
      September 30, 2011, 10:24 am

      Hey David … Have you seen the way Israelis behave towards Arabs/Palestinians/Moslems at Tel Aviv airport & other places…for that matter…?

  11. longliveisrael
    September 30, 2011, 10:23 am

    Phil, I am always amazed when you write these reports that you don’t even see your own bias. EVERY Israeli is evil and every Palestinian you meet is oppressed but a truly gentle soul. If someone were to write this kind of report but in reverse, you would all yell racist.

    Oh, and in your eyes, Neturei Karta are the good guys.

    • Potsherd2
      September 30, 2011, 10:40 am

      And what, in your eyes, LLI, makes Neturei Karta the “bad guys?” Because they are anti-Zionist? So are thousands of Haredi, many of them in Israel.

    • Bill in Maryland
      September 30, 2011, 12:25 pm

      If Phil encountered long lines of Israeli civilians forced through metal cattle chutes by Palestinian guards barking orders behind plexiglass, he would report it I have no doubt.

      • longliveisrael
        September 30, 2011, 4:49 pm

        If Phil found himself in a bus or market that a homicide bomber just blew himself and others up in, what would be the report then?

        I recall very well when there were no checkpoints, no chutes as you call them. So what brought this about?

      • tree
        September 30, 2011, 5:25 pm

        I recall very well when there were no checkpoints, no chutes as you call them. So what brought this about?

        Short answer: Zionism.

        As eee pointed out, the checkpoints and closure system started after the first intifada, and prior to, as well as during, the Oslo period, well before any Palestinian blew himself up in Israel. It was part of the Israeli concept of separating the occupied Palestinians from Israelis as part of the “them over there, us over here” separation rationale that the Israeli government, and most Israelis at the time, envisioned as their concept of “two states”.

        Of course, the Israeli government had trouble really getting behind the “them over there” concept since they ultimately wanted “us over there, AND us over here” and wanted the occupied Palestinians to disappear politely and quietly, but the checkpoints were instituted well before the second intifada, so your rationale is specious, lli.

        It should also be noted that during this time, there were instances of Israeli Jewish settler violence erupting against Palestinians, but the government of Israel never considered it necessary to institute checkpoints specifically for Jewish settlers in the West Bank or Gaza to have to navigate. The checkpoints were not instituted to quell violence. They were instituted to crush Palestinian autonomy and its economy. This is why there are so many Israeli checkpoints that are NOT on the green line.

        From Amira Hass on the history of Israeli closure:

        link to fromoccupiedpalestine.org

  12. Seham
    September 30, 2011, 10:44 am

    I really enjoyed reading this, Phil.

  13. RobertB
    September 30, 2011, 10:48 am

    Hi Phil…A great article indeed & keep up the great humanity work coming!

    Phil…since you are in the area, is it possible for you to ask/find out from Israeli Arabs/Palestinians regarding the application/costs for a new building permit & for an add-on permit. How long is the waiting process & the fees … if a permit is granted?

    How about for a Jewish Israeli? If he wanted to add-on to his existing living space area, is the waiting process & the costs/fees the same as for Arabs/Palestinians?

  14. eee
    September 30, 2011, 11:27 am

    “Every Zionist in America should have to go through these chutes before they talk to people about the achievements of the Jewish state.”

    Are you serious? You must have led a sheltered life. It is not worse than most security checks.

    • Pamela Olson
      September 30, 2011, 1:00 pm

      LOL! Wow… sheltered? Projecting much?

      “not worse than most security checks” — this pretty much explains everything you need to know about how much eee knows about anything. This post alone discredits anything he could ever possibly say… not that it was really needed. Most of his posts are absurd. But this is a real winner, man. Wow.

      • annie
        September 30, 2011, 1:10 pm

        this is nothing. eee was on a roll last night. it occurred to me he was drunk from celebrating the new year. i thought he’d be taking the morning off nurturing a hangover but he’s back in business this morning.

      • eee
        September 30, 2011, 1:31 pm

        Annie,

        I am completely sober and will be happy to repeat that Measheimer is going down for being a racist. It is really simple. Let’s revisit this subject in a few months and see who is right.

      • Citizen
        September 30, 2011, 5:57 pm

        Meanwhile, eee, here’s a supplement to the 4-point cheat sheet Mooser gave all you hasbarabots on how to win arguments here on MW & other such web sites: link to jpost.com

      • eee
        September 30, 2011, 1:29 pm

        Pamela,

        How is Qalandiya worse than most security checks? It just isn’t.
        I have been there many times and it is an efficient way of getting many people through without risking a suicide bomber. What about Qalandiya exactly don’t you like? Are people patted down? Very few. The lines? There are lines at most security checks. The IDF soldiers are not pretty enough for you? So what exactly is your problem with Qalandiya?

      • eee
        September 30, 2011, 1:35 pm

        Here is a description of passing through Qaladiya by the MSM:
        link to msnbc.msn.com

        You stand in line, pass through turnstiles, provide your ID and pass through. Oh, the horror.

      • Castle Keep
        September 30, 2011, 3:14 pm

        in my city, when a Jew wishes to pass from one town into the adjacent town, he/she drives across the boundary line without even being aware of it, much less patted down, or forced into a turnstile or caged in a holding pen or being forced to present ID. Oh, no horror.

        similarly, in my city, when a non-Jew wishes to pass from one town into an adjacent town, he/she drives across the boundary line without even being aware of it, etc.

        why is it different in Israel?

      • eee
        September 30, 2011, 3:37 pm

        If in your cities some of the Jews would blow themselves up and kill others, while many of the other Jews cheered them on, then things would be like Israel.

        Until the first intifada, Israel and the West Bank and Gaza were one economic unit with people and goods moving around freely. Millions of Arabs worked in Israel. Violence changed everything.

      • DBG
        September 30, 2011, 3:39 pm

        I’ve been all around the state of Israel, never did I encounter a checkpoint.

      • David Samel
        September 30, 2011, 4:02 pm

        Thanks for clearing that up, DBG. I guess checkpoints don’t exist. On a related note, a lot of people in the US talk about capital punishment, pro and con, but it does not really exist. I know, because I’ve traveled all around the country and have never been executed.

      • john h
        September 30, 2011, 5:18 pm

        “Violence changed everything.”

        It always does, eee. What changed everything was the presence of Zionism as a violent ideology of might is right and the end justifies the means.

        “Israel and the West Bank and Gaza were one economic unit with people and goods moving around freely.”

        That describes Palestine before Zionism.

      • Castle Keep
        October 1, 2011, 6:50 am

        in my city zionists have more subtle ways of “blow[ing] [others] up and killing” — there are numerous unregistered foreign agents who are financed by Israel and work to advance the interests of Israel. They raise fund, disseminate a crapload of hatefilled propaganda with the deliberate intention of inducing the rest of the people of my city to hate the targeted groups that they hate. These zionisist unregistered foreign agents have more influence with my city’s local, state, and federal elected officials, and more levers on the mechanism of government, and more presence and control over what comes over the airwaves in my city, than do the larger population of citizens who play by the rules. THAT is what is galling about “the Israel lobby.”

        It ain’t just in Washington; ziothugs are present at meetings down to the level of city council town hall gatherings of 10 or 12; I’ve seen them appear at city council town halls where they literally throw their weight around, pushing themselves into the face/body space of audience members who have had the temerity to speak up at the town hall in a way that displeased the ziothugs.

    • seafoid
      September 30, 2011, 6:24 pm

      “It is not worse than most security checks”.

      Yes. Every time I cross into Zone I in London I have to go through a humiliating 45 minute holdup through a cattle pen because I’m not Jewish. It’s the same in Paris. If I want to cross the Seine onto The Left Bank there’s a big airport style checkpoint with holdups of at least 2 hours. . There are 45 of them all around Paris to stop non Jews getting through. Same in Rome . All over the Umbrian countryside there are roadblocks.

      I’ve even installed a checkpoint at my office .I dropped a load of white phosphorous on the typing pool. When they moaned I said it’s not any worse than most Gaza operations.

      the ironic thing is the next bombs in Israel will be settler bombs. But the checkpoints are not about security, are they?

      • James North
        September 30, 2011, 6:52 pm

        Seafoid: It’s the same here in New York City! If I travel from my home in Manhattan to Brooklyn the holdup is a huge delay. We try to go at off hours, but you can never be sure the cops on duty won’t single you out for nastiness. Some of them seem to particularly enjoy bothering older people, who are just going to pray at one of their favorite houses of worship.

      • seafoid
        September 30, 2011, 7:01 pm

        James

        I was skiing in Kitzbuehel and the bastards stopped me for a security check halfway down the mountain.

        Diving in the Bahamas. I nearly ran out of oxygen at the underwater checkpoint.

  15. Dan Crowther
    September 30, 2011, 12:00 pm

    Thanks for the report Phil, especially the part about reverting to a more conservative religiosity to maintain one’s identity. This has been the dynamic at play across the Arab and Muslim world – the only democratizing avenue these people have had is their religion and culture. The only place where they are told they are of worth is at the mosque.

    But yet, in the West, we continue to think that this religiosity was created in a vaccuum – but all one has to do is look at our brothers and sisters in America taking up this distorted evangelicalism to know that fundamentalism is the last gasp of a people that have been robbed of their own self determination, to have a good job, good schools and social mobility.
    The situation created by the West in the Middle East and the rest of the Muslim world is far far worse than anything experienced by Americans – it really is a wonder that in America a new “mega church” springs up daily, filled with people that have been DRIVEN to succumb and “hand themselves over to God” and yet we have no appreciation for why muslims might want to seek refuge in their religion.

    It is said that “there are no atheists in a fox hole.” The Western capitalist countries have put, and continue to put, hundreds of millions of of people in a fox holes, all around the world and at home. Tom Frank’s “whats the matter with Kansas” explains this dynamic – both in the US and abroad.

    • Castle Keep
      September 30, 2011, 3:33 pm

      Dan, with respect, you need to get out more.

      “This has been the dynamic at play across the Arab and Muslim world – the only democratizing avenue these people have had is their religion and culture. The only place where they are told they are of worth is at the mosque. ”

      The generalization is insulting to the people of some of the world’s oldest cultures who have contributed the greatest concepts that have advanced civilization. Iranians, Syrians, Turks (the people of Anatolia), the people of Lebanon, the people of all the -stans, dream dreams that stretch back 4500 years and more, and most of these peoples and lands still have the built manifestations of their history, legacy, and grandeur. Iranians think in the terms of their great poets; that is the soul and source of Iranian “worth,” even tho most Iranians of my acquaintance would be puzzled by the concept and western obsession with “self worth.”

      When the Syrian ambassador spoke at a nearby college some months ago, he made his presentation against a backdrop of a slide-show of the beauties of Syria’s history and cultural legacy. Syrian arches ain’t MacDonalds.

      Family is key to the peoples of these lands; family is affirmed and reinforced by Islam, but sessions at the mosque do not substitute for family life.

      I think you are applying western pop psych to a social and spiritual way of being in the world that is much richer and deeper than the physical culture of the middle-aged old girl in the white tank top.

      • Dan Crowther
        September 30, 2011, 4:39 pm

        CastleKeep,

        With respect, you shouldnt tell other people that they should get out more, because you never know who you might be saying that to – you might be saying it to a former US Marine who has spent years of his life in foreign countries, seeing first hand the effect of concentrated capitalism and neo-liberalism all the way through war and occupation.

        You take exception to my using “these people” as if I am some racist – but then you use “these peoples” in your response. Of course, you totally fail to mention my parallel between dispossessed muslims and their christian counterparts in America, but I’ll let that slide.

        I still am trying to figure out exactly what in my post you disagree with. You say I insult people, their culture and religion. Hmm. This is demonstrably false – but let me refute your total bullshit by asking you a few questions:

        Do you deny that western backed secular dictatorships have ruled much of the middle east and the greater muslim world – and do you deny that during their rule, the people under them grew poorer, less educated and more prone to manipulation by state propaganda?

        If you agree, who have been the proponents of education, of critical thinking and of community in the face of tyranny, both internal and external?

        You cite many examples of history and culture in the middle east and elsewhere, as well as dreams that stretch back 4500 years. This culture and history was developed BEFORE western capitalist colonization, right? The need to harken back demonstrates that peoples current conditions are far worse than they used to be.

        The point of my post — and I was at work and typed it out in a somewhat rushed fashion– was that when people have their avenues for progress thwarted and have their economies and lives controlled by some distant economic elite or military hegemon, people, no matter where they are on the planet will seek to change that situation. And in the muslim world, where religious groups not only form political parties but are are, somtimes the only ones calling for human rights, jobs and the rule of law – people are going to gravitate toward them. How this is controversial, i have no fucking idea.

        Peoples lives get shtty, some of them “find” religion. A radical idea, for sure. Thats all I was saying.

      • Castle Keep
        September 30, 2011, 7:24 pm

        Dan Crowther,

        You’re right; I regretted the first line/slur of my post, but hit the Edit button too late. I regret it.

        The first para. of your comment, the one that I referenced, was what grabbed my attention. Based upon my own, admittedly far less extensive experience than that of a Marine who has travelled all over the region, I still object to its fundamental thesis, that the “only place Muslims are told they have worth is at the mosque.”

        Having read the rest of your original comment more closely only reinforces my original retort, that you are interpreting Middle Easterners by western standards. I don’t think the parallel between the increasing religiosity of Muslims and of mega-church evangelicals is accurate, perhaps because I have such low regard for US evangelicals. I agree with you that Americans flocking to mega churches in panic and fear is just pathetic, when the miseries they suffer is so minor compared to what Americans have visited upon the people of the Middle East in our bid to “fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here,” surely a phrase that will live in infamy.

        The point I was trying to make — inarticulately, and perhaps controversially, is that I see a lot more of substance and character in the people of the Middle East who have been the victims of American perfidy and victimization, than I do in Americans who seek out the consolations of ‘religion.’ I suspect that depth of character comes from “those people” having a deeper and more cohesive cultural tradition and legacy than does the young, immature, relatively untested, and highly diverse USA.

        Another point occurs — Americans do not have a single, unifying cultural context — At least zionism serves as a unifying mythology/ideology for Israelis/diaspora Jews; there simply IS no similar, broadly accepted, unifying American mythology. Evangelicals with their megachurches actually further fragment the American population, rather than provide a rich cultural heritage/mythology that all Americans can subscribe to and take strength from.

      • Dan Crowther
        September 30, 2011, 9:25 pm

        Castle Keep,

        The great thing about Mondoweiss is that most of us are willing to admit when we are wrong ( well, maybe some of us) – and in keeping with tradition, let me say, you make a lot of good points. And i TOTALLY agree with your views with regards to the differences between muslims in the middle east and elsewhere and evangelicals here in the US. Your argument (especially your second one) is lucid and enlightening – for that I say, cheers!

        I want to make clear that I was referring to “worth” only in a political sense – and that in many of the dictatorships, ruled by western backed puppets, citizens had/have little to no recourse in petitioning their government. Massive police states were/have been constructed to repress the will of the people and thwart dissenting opinions. What I was meaning to say, and now realize that I failed miserably in doing so, is that where democracy was suppressed in the public sphere by secularists using religious language and images – actual religious groups provided an outlet for expression, debate and all the other trappings, that we in the West, associate with democracy. My phrasing was inappropriate, I agree, I meant no condescension or to cast “these people” as “other.”

        And my bad for swearing at you.

      • john h
        October 1, 2011, 12:14 am

        Talk about having the same values.

        Castle Keep mentioned Americans saying “fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here,” surely a phrase that will live in infamy.”

        That reminded me of what I picked up earlier today that an IDF spokesperson said: “The logic is that when someone is trying to launch a rocket at you, then the logic is – we better target that person before he targets us.” (see the Kusra thread)

        Birds of a feather

      • ToivoS
        October 1, 2011, 4:41 am

        Castle Keep and Dan Crowther what a great exchange. This is why I love the comments sections of blogs, MW brings out the best.

      • seafoid
        October 1, 2011, 6:53 am

        “I don’t think the parallel between the increasing religiosity of Muslims and of mega-church evangelicals is accurate, perhaps because I have such low regard for US evangelicals”

        That’s your class showing. Median wage in the US hasn’t risen since the 1970s. Neoliberalism means the US has no need for maybe 20% of its workers. 3 million of them are in prison. 43 million people live below the poverty line. Many have no health insurance. It’s all linked to the growth of the mega churches. And to the situation in the Middle East. When people suffer and are denied political representation they are easy picking for missionaries. Tea Party, Shas, Hamas. Whatever.

        link to youtube.com

        Voices of anger, victims of history
        Plundered and set aside, grown fat on swallowed pride
        With promises of paradise and gifts of beads and knives
        Missionaries and pioneers are all soldiers in disguise
        Saviors and conquerors they make us wait
        The fishers of men they wave their truth like bait
        With the touch of a strangers’ hand innocence turns to shame
        The spirit that dwelt within it sleeps out in the rain
        For all our native tongues we can’t communicate
        For all our native tongues we’re all natives here
        The scars of the past are slow to disappear
        The cries of the dead are always in our ears
        Only the very safe can talk about wrong and right
        Of those who are forced to choose some will choose

  16. kalithea
    September 30, 2011, 12:12 pm

    “Even in the States you might think she was dressed a little inappropriately but this is Israel and it has a bold physical culture, and yes I find it captivating. Israel is unencumbered.”

    Israel has a bold culture alright! Founding a country on the expulsion of hundreds of thousands via terrorist acts and intimidation certainly makes a “bold statement!

    Israel is “unencumbered”. Really??? Or is it more like delusionally “unencumbered”? Do you think that overwhelming guilt swept under the carpet can be described as “unencumbered” or that the Occupation with all its machinery of oppression: walls, sniper towers, checkpoints with cattle chutes and turnstiles, apartheid road system, i.d. bureaucracy and all the extra-judicial restrictions imposed on Palestinians represents an “unencumbered Israel”?

    You say this middle-aged woman who captivated you would be considered inappropriately dressed here. Yes, I’ve seen videos on youtube and noticed how Zionists behave more “liberated”, and even more loosely in a decadent sort of way when on their STOLEN turf. I’ve seen what female IDF look like when they humiliate Palestinian prisoners; the word “tramp” comes to mind. I’ve seen the Orly Taitz look-a-likes in their loud tight-fitting polyester with the excessive liner and fake lashes trashing Palestinians, and the Zionist Paris Hilton wannabes with their air of haughty apathy for the suffering of others and their more “religious” scarfed shrew counterparts that spit on Palestinians and don’t mind sharing with the world that they wish Gaza were razed to the ground and the West Bank cleansed entirely.

    This woman you described and liked that “boldly” parades around in tight white pants attracting attention “unencumbered” by the “eye-sore” reality beyond the walls and apathetic to the suffering and misery next door inhabits an illusory bubble, and represents Zionist society in all its artificial splendor, immersed in DEPRAVED INDIFFERENCE to the misery Zionists created with their “bold” presence and usurpation of this land that Palestinians worked with their bare knuckles for years.

    • john h
      September 30, 2011, 3:38 pm

      “Israel is “unencumbered”. Really??? Or is it more like delusionally “unencumbered”? Do you think that overwhelming guilt swept under the carpet can be described as “unencumbered”

      This woman you described inhabits an illusory bubble, and represents Zionist society in all its artificial splendor, immersed in DEPRAVED INDIFFERENCE to the misery Zionists created with their “bold” presence and usurpation of this land”.

      You nailed it good, kalithea, again.

  17. DICKERSON3870
    September 30, 2011, 12:50 pm

    RE: “Israel is unencumbered.” ~ Weiss

    MY COMMENT: From a psychological perspective, I suspect that Israel is über encumbered. Consider their very considerable Masada Complex, for instance. Not to mention their very pronounced Holocaust Complex: Avraham Burg argued in his recent book that Israel is an “abused child” which has become a “violent parent”.

    ALSO SEE THIS DOCUMENTARY: Defamation (2009), by Yoav Shamir, 91 minutes
    FROM A FILM REVIEW BY GILAD ATZMAN:

    (excepts) I urge every person on this planet to watch Yoav Shamir’s Defamation, a documentary about anti-Semitism…
    …He provides us with some intimate footage of Israeli youth being indoctrinated into collective anxiety and total neurosis just before they join the IDF.
    The general image we are left with is no less than grotesque. The film elaborates on the aggressive vulgar orchestrated amplification of fear amongst Israelis and Zionist Jews. “We are raised to believe that we are hated” says an Israeli high school girl on her way to a concentration camp…
    …Shamir provides us with an opportunity to see how badly young Israelis behave once in Poland. You watch their contempt to the local population and disrespect to Polish people and institutes. You can also watch Israelis project their hatred onto others. For some reason they are convinced that everyone out there is as merciless as they happen to be. The Israeli youngsters are saturated with fear, yet, they are having a good time, you can watch them having a party dancing in a bus all the way to a Auschwitz…

    ENTIRE FILM REVIEW – link to gilad.co.uk
    “Defamation” can be streamed from Netflix – link to movies.netflix.com
    “Defamation” on YouTube (in 9 parts) – link to youtube.com

    • DICKERSON3870
      September 30, 2011, 1:29 pm

      RE: “Consider their very considerable Masada Complex, for instance. Not to mention their very pronounced Holocaust Complex…” ~ me, above

      MY COMMENT: I fear that Israel’s Masada and Holocaust complexes might be part of Israel’s own unique “architecture of doom”.

      A SUPERB DOCUMENTARY: The Architecture of Doom (Undergångens Arkitektur) 1991, NR, 119 minutes (on YouTube in 12 segments & available for streaming at Netflix)
      This chilling documentary explores how artistic, cultural and historical trends forged the National Socialist aesthetic, which in turn contributed to the unspeakable horrors of the
      Holocaust.
      Swedish-born filmmaker Peter Cohen, whose parents escaped the Nazis, examines Hitler’s failed career as an artist, his fascination with Wagner, the Nazi obsession with cleanliness, the paradoxical link between “beauty” and evil in the Third Reich, and more.
      Netflix Availability: Streaming and DVD
      NETFLIX LISTING – link to netflix.com
      YouTube, Architecture of Doom (12 segments) – link to youtube.com

      • DICKERSON3870
        September 30, 2011, 2:04 pm

        P.S. RE: “Israel’s own unique ‘architecture of doom’ ” ~ me
        SEE: Bibi: Israel Will Raise ‘David’s Sword’ Against Iran ~ By Richard Silverstein, Tikun Olam, 9/28/11

        (excerpt)…But the most interesting and frightening element of the interview was his [Netanyahu's] comments about Iran. Other reporters have been noting that Bibi lately has been waxing apocalyptic and mystical about the possibly oncoming war with Iran. In this interview he says:
        Iran’s nuclear programs are turning it into an existential danger to the State of Israel. The question is not just what Israel is doing to stop it, but what the world is doing. The awareness by the world community that Iran is progressing on a track toward developing a nuclear weapon obligates it to act so that Iran does not get this weapon. With every day that passes, Iran gets closer. The obligation of the international community to act grows as the fear [that Iran progresses toward a bomb] does.
        You must keep in mind: that we aspire toward peace; but at the same time we must wield the sword of David to defend the Jewish State.

        Of course, in Bibi’s skewed world-view, David’s sword was raised only to defend his people, not in aggression against a victim. But we should keep in mind that David’s sword slew an Israelite enemy and led to the killer’s annointment as King of Israel…
        …Bibi (and to a lesser extent, Barak) have a very complicated complex that is little short of messianic and frightening. In the past, I’ve written dismissively about Bibi saying he has no principles and that even his so-called Jewish values appear to be manufactured. Now, I’m not so sure. And I don’t know which is worse, a megalomaniac with no principles or values; or a Jewish megalomaniac with religious-nationalist principles and values. They both scare the living hell out of me…

        ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to richardsilverstein.com

    • seafoid
      September 30, 2011, 6:39 pm

      Thanks for the link to the film, Dickerson.

      What a freak show.
      Instead of brainwashing the kids they should show them the culture of the region

  18. DICKERSON3870
    September 30, 2011, 1:11 pm

    RE: “when I recount the story to other Israelis later they agree that he was behaving very Israeli. The famous rudeness, sometimes it fails to charm.” ~ Weiss

    THE WORDS OF A FORMER ISRAELI:

    …Israelis have never been particularly kind to each other. It’s one of the reasons I left actually. In my late twenties I started to grow weary of the unkind, harsh and unforgiving atmosphere around me. It was a tough place to live in not because of our ‘enemies’ but because of how people treated one another. You would believe that we were all enemies rather than people who have some kind of a shared heritage. The only thing that could unite people and temporarily brought out more kindness and a sense of cooperation was a feeling of being under collective threat, and in particular a ‘good wholesome war’…” – Avigail Abarbanel

    SOURCE - http://www.avigailabarbanel.me.uk/gaza-2009-01-04.html
    AVIGAIL ABARBANEL’S SITE -http://www.avigailabarbanel.me.uk/

  19. kalithea
    September 30, 2011, 10:38 pm

    Indoctrination of fear and hate, collective neurosis and paranoia, deluded bahavior all adding up to the ‘cumbersome’ consciousness of guilt.

    • yourstruly
      October 5, 2011, 1:47 am

      this mw conversation about israeli rudeness reminds me of a conversation i had recently with an ex-u.s. special forces warrior, someone who seemed to share certain direct/rude personality traits (as discussed in this thread) with the jewish settlers -

      “one thing, is that after all the things i’ve been through (including a stint as a sniper in iraq), i’ve found contentment”

      “contentment meaning?”

      “nothing bothers me, i do what i want and to hell with what others think. only one thing, though, which goes back to my childhood days.”.

      “whcih is?”

      “i feel a certain tension whenever i have to make a decision”

      tension about what?

      “just don’t know”

      don’t know?

      someone who actually believes he’s found contentment

      nirvana even?

      yet he describes a tension within

      doesn’t know why

      says he always has to be in control

      he, a former warrior

      and self-awareness & insight be damned

      any relationship here to the settler mentality?

  20. hophmi
    October 3, 2011, 3:17 pm

    Yes Phil, Jews bad, Arabs good. We get it.

    • Cliff
      October 3, 2011, 3:43 pm

      Coming from a racist, Islamophobe who called ALL Palestinians ‘hitler supporters’ and whitewashed a racist cartoon by a loony pro-Israel group, StandWithUs – your comment comes off as ironic and cynical not sarcastic and cutting.

      Go see a psychiatrist.

      • hophmi
        October 3, 2011, 3:53 pm

        “Coming from a racist, Islamophobe who called ALL Palestinians ‘hitler supporters’ and whitewashed a racist cartoon by a loony pro-Israel group”

        Coming from a broken record who’s dedicated to calling anyone who disagrees with him a racist and trotting out old statements taken out of context, go see a neurologist.

      • DBG
        October 3, 2011, 4:02 pm

        Cliff, care to share when he called all Palestinians ‘Hitler Supporters?”

      • Cliff
        October 4, 2011, 11:48 am

        You should know, DBG, right after I mentioned it you began talking about the Mufti.

        The Mufti was not a representative of the Palestinian people and the thoroughly documented argument by Hostage refutes the notion that through him, Palestinians supported Hitler (which is what Hophmi was both saying and implying).

        YOU look it up yourself. I don’t think for one second that you will give a damn that one of your fellow passengers on the short-bus is a racist, Jewish supremacist.

        And Hophmi, I was asking you to back up your B.S. right after you made the comment in question.

        You didn’t reply then. It took you like 3 weeks I think.

        I’ll keep making sure to reference those gems of wisdom of yours.

        You’re a racist because of your racist comments. And I happen to disagree with racism. So technically you’re correct.

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