Turkish government releases identities of IDF soldiers who attacked the Mavi Marmara

Israel/Palestine
on 244 Comments

 

After an extensive investigation the Turkish government has released the names of the IDF soldiers who participated in the attack on the Mavi Marmara. This news broke today in Sabah, a Turkish newspaper.

The search for the identities of IDF soldiers who participated in the deadly Flotilla raid began after Turkish intelligence demanded the information from Israel who refused to release the information. The Turkish government has requested an apology from Israel as well as compensation for victims of the attack and lifting the blockade on Gaza to abort this investigation. After Israel refused the Turkish government warned they would pursue criminal charges against individuals who participated in the attack. The prosecutor conducting the investigation on the Mavi Marmara raid is Mehmet Akif Ekinci of Turkey’s Ministry of Justice.

The Turkish Intelligence Service as well as other agencies have conducted the identification and image hunt by meticulously combing thru all video and photographic evidence available thru worldwide media including leads thru thousands of facebook and twitter accounts. Members of the crew as well as passengers on the Mavi Marmara also participated in the investigation. Turkish experts in Hebrew were vital in following leads thru Israeli social media sites.

 IDF soldiers who have been identified thus far are:

Agai Yehezkel, Aharon Haliwa, Alex Shakliar, Amir Ulo, Amir Abste, Amir Shimon Ashel, Anna Strelski, Anton Siomin, Aram Zehavi, Ariel Brickman, Ariel Karo, Ariel Rifkin, Ariel Yochanan, Arnon Avital, Assaf Bryt, Avi Balut, Avi Bnayahu, Avi Mizrakhi, Avi Peled, Aviad Perri, Aviel Siman, Avihay Wizman, Avihu Ben Zahar, Avishay Levi, Avishay Shasha, Aviv Edri, Aviv Kochavi, Aviv Mendelowitz, Baruch (Barry) Berlinsky, Basam Alian, Ben-Zion (Benzi) Gruver, Bnaya Sarel, Boaz Dabush, Boaz Rubin, Boris Schuster, Dado Bar- Kalifa, Dan Dolberg, Dan Harel, Daniel Kotler, David Shapira, David Slovozkoi, David Zini, Eden Atias, Eden Atias, Efraim Aviad Tehila, Efraim Avni, Eitan Ben-Gad, Elad Chachkis, Elad Itzik, Elad Shoshan, Elad Yakobson, Eli Fadida, Eli Yafe, Eliezer Shkedi, Elik Sror, Eran Karisi, Erez Sa’adon, Eyal Eizenberg, Eyal Handelman, Eyal Zukowsky, Gil Shen, Gur Rozenblat, Gur Schreibmann, Guy Givoni, Guy Hazut, Haggai Amar, Hanan Schwart, Harel Naaman, Hila Yafe, Ido Nechushtan, Ilan Malka, Itay Virob, Liran Nachman, Michelle Ben-Baruch, Miki Ohayon, Moshe Tamir, Nadav Musa, Nathan Be’eri, Nezah Rubin, Nimrod Schefer, Nir Ben-David, Nir Dupet, Nir Ohayon, Niv Samban, Noam Keshwisky, Ofek Gal, Ofer Lahad, Ofer Levi, Ofer Winter, Ofer Zafrir, Ofir Edri, Ohad Girhish, Ohad Najme, Omer Dori, Omri Dover, Or Nelkenbaum, Oren Bersano, Oren Cohen, Oren Kupitz, Oren Zini, Pinkhas Buchris, Raz Sarig, Ron Asherov, Ron Levinger, Ron Shirto, Ronen Dan, Ronen Dogmi, Roi Elkabetz, Roi Oppenheimer, Roi Weinberger, Sahar Abargel, Shai Belaich, Shaked Galin, Sharon Itach, Shaul Badusa, Shay Unger, Shimon Siso, Shiran Mussa, Shlomit Tako, Tal Alkobi, Tal Bendel, Tal Kommemi, Tal Ruso, Tamir Oren, Tamir Yadai, Tom Cohen, Tomer Meltzmann, Geva Rapp, Tslil Birbir, Udi Sagie, Uri Ron, Yair Keinan, Yair Palay, Ya’akov(Yaki) Dolf, Yaniv Zolicha, Yaron,Finkelman, Yaron Simsulo, Yehosua (Shuki) Ribak, Yehu Ofer, Yehuda Fuchs, Yehuda Hacohen, Yigal Slovik, Yigal Sudri, Yizhar Yona, Yoav Galant, Yoav Gertner, Yoav Mordechai, Yochai Siemann, Yochanan Locker, Yom-Tov Samia, Yonathan Barenski, Yonathan Felman, Yoni Weitzner, Yossi Abuzaglo, Yossi Bahar, Yossi Beidaz, Yotam Dadon, Yishai Ankri, Yishai Green, Yuval Halamish, Zion Bramli, Zion Shankour, Ziv Danieli, Ziv Trabelsi, Zuf Salomon, Zvi Fogel, Zvi Yehuda Kelner.

There remain IDF soldiers who have yet to be identified by name although their images are familiar to investigators.

244 Responses

  1. seafoid
    September 26, 2011, 10:51 am

    Wow.

    The other thing is all those made up Zionist names
    Oren Kupitz. Peanut Slashhook Yishai Ankri Chestnut Rainbow

  2. eee
    September 26, 2011, 10:52 am

    This is going to be fun. We are going to raise millions to support the defense fund of these soldiers and show what a farce the Turkish justice system is. The Turks are going to get so much bad press and Erdogan will look like an idiot.

    • justicewillprevail
      September 26, 2011, 11:05 am

      So you’re an expert on the Turkish justice system. And of course the Israeli justice system is renowned for its political and ideological bias. Just ask the Corrie family, the Hurndall family or the thousands of Palestinians obstructed and denied justice. Can the Turkish system be worse? If you’re talking bad press, hard to beat the Israelis at repulsing the world, and who doesn’t think Nini isn’t a complete idiot and buffoon, who sounded like a cartoon Stalinist at the UN last week?

    • Cliff
      September 26, 2011, 11:12 am

      Who cares. Zionists giving themselves money? Alert the press!

      And considered an idiot by who? You? People like you?

      Again who cares.

      • eee
        September 26, 2011, 11:24 am

        Who cares? All the people on this site the whine constantly about how the MSM covers the issues. If you don’t care about the MSM, why do you whine about it?

      • Chaos4700
        September 26, 2011, 1:31 pm

        Straw man. CLEARLY we care about the MSM, enough to protest against hate-mongery and yellow journalism.

    • MarkF
      September 26, 2011, 3:12 pm

      Where are you going to get the money from? You mean us American Jews have to pony up more? I guess it is conveniently high holidays, so you can start the begging Wednesday night, eh? let’s see, ten days to repent – and beg. Sounds like an Israeli plan….

    • Koshiro
      September 26, 2011, 8:26 pm

      Not the kind of farce where throwing lots of money at it will get a guilty man free, I’m afraid…

  3. annie
    September 26, 2011, 10:52 am

    don’t mess with Turkey.

    • DBG
      September 26, 2011, 10:56 am

      the Armenians, Cypriots, and Kurds are quite aware.

      Erdogan’s nonsense will definitely catch up with him. I am waiting for that day.

      • Cliff
        September 26, 2011, 11:13 am

        His nonsense is actually only nonsense to the crazies of your cult and the people they BUY off.

      • Chaos4700
        September 26, 2011, 1:32 pm

        Waiting for what day? When the United States disbands NATO? When Israel starts killing Turkish civilians by scores instead of in single digits?

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 1:40 pm

        why would the US disband NATO? because we foot the majority of the bill? Also why don’t you care about Turkish civilians when the Kurds kill them? Why don’t you care about Kurdish civilians when the Turks or Iranians kill them? double standard eh?

      • Dan Crowther
        September 26, 2011, 2:16 pm

        DBG,

        You and your cohort are the ONLY people on here that defend murder.

      • MarkF
        September 26, 2011, 3:09 pm

        Just as how Israeli Jews care more for Israeli Jews than American Jews. At least we know it’s a one-way street.

        Probably the same reason my Synagogue cares more for the people of Darfur than the people under Israeli occupation in the west bank. But point well taken. We’ll see Wednesday night, Thursday & Friday if our Rabbi brings up the Turkish civilian deaths.

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 3:22 pm

        L’shana tovah Mark!

      • MarkF
        September 26, 2011, 3:52 pm

        L’shana tova to you too, my friend. Happy healthy New Year.

      • lysias
        September 26, 2011, 1:42 pm

        I wonder if you made any complaints about the Armenian genocide before Turkey’s relations with Israel soured.

      • DBG
        September 27, 2011, 1:38 am

        Kinda like Erdogan didn’t make any complaints about Israel/Cyprus NG exploration before relations soured.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2011, 4:39 pm

        Erdogan’s nonsense will definitely catch up with him. I am waiting for that day.

        That will be long after Bibbi’s and Israel’s noneswnse gas caught up with it.

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 5:20 pm

        uggghhhh whatever u say Shingo.

      • Chaos4700
        September 26, 2011, 8:54 pm

        DBG, why do you defend people who murder Americans? We’re really supposed to believe your loyal and patriotic? With your support for Bush’s war and all?

      • DBG
        September 27, 2011, 1:43 am

        Chaos, I didn’t support Bush’s war, can you provide a link which says I supported it?

      • Chaos4700
        September 27, 2011, 9:09 am

        Nobody believes you when you say that, DBG. Just like nobody believes you when you claim to be anything other than a white suburban guy.

  4. Kathleen
    September 26, 2011, 10:54 am

    Pictures and names…now that is getting specific. Hope folks stay peaceful. Demand that they go on trial at ICC.

    Erdogan was spot on during his interview with Fareed Zakaria yesterday

    • hophmi
      September 26, 2011, 11:05 am

      Great. We’ll publish the names of all Turkish officials who allowed violent IHH activists to board the boat and attempt to run a legal international blockade, starting with Erdogan.

      Not one of these soldiers will ever be prosecuted, and if so much as one hair on the head of one of these soldiers is touched by any Turkish official, it will be an act of war.

      • annie
        September 26, 2011, 11:06 am

        the flotilla attack was an act of war.

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 11:08 am

        according to Erdogan maybe. If it was really an ‘act of war’ Annie, NATO would have condemned it.

      • eee
        September 26, 2011, 11:09 am

        A UN report says it was a legal act. Keep howling at the moon.

      • annie
        September 26, 2011, 11:20 am

        The legal flaws of the Palmer Commission flotilla report

        Overall, however, the report of the Palmer Commission is severely flawed from an international law perspective. The most significant finding of the report is its most dangerous and legally dubious: the conclusion that Israel’s blockade of Gaza, in effect since mid-2007, was somehow, despite being severely harmful to the 1.5 million Palestinians living in Gaza, a legitimate act of self-defense. The report gives considerable attention to the illegal rockets fired into Israel by Palestinian militants mainly associated with Hamas, and notes, appropriately, that “stopping these violent acts was a necessary step for Israel to take in order to protect its people.” But while that justifies protective action, it does not make the case for a valid claim of self-defense under international law.

        The report ignores altogether the crucial fact that a unilateral ceasefire had been observed by Hamas ever since the end of the Gaza War in early 2009. An earlier joint Israeli-Palestinian ceasefire had been declared in July 2008, and had led to a virtual halt in rocket attacks until it was broken by Israel in November of that year, in a lethal assault on Gaza that led to a crumbling of the ceasefire and thereafter to Israel’s Operation Cast Lead on December 27, 2008. The Palmer report cannot be legally persuasive on the central issue of self-defense without addressing the relevance of these ceasefires that gave Israel a viable security alternative to blockade and force. The fact that the word “ceasefire” does not even appear in the 105-page document underscores why this report is so unconvincing except to Israel’s partisans.

        Allowing a naval blockade – which the Palmer Commission acknowledges to be an act of war – to be imposed by Israel against the helpless civilian population of Gaza and then accepted as ‘legal’ by the UN, it is a sad day for both the global rule of law and the well-being of some of the most vulnerable and abused people on the planet.

      • James
        September 26, 2011, 11:24 am

        eee – relying on the un now are we? lol……………

        There were surprised reactions to the appointment of Mr Uribe who is accused of responsibility for widespread human rights violations during his period of office as President of Columbia. More relevant here are his associations with Israel. During his term of office Israel was Columbia’s top weapons supplier, [2] while the American Jewish Committee gave him its ‘Light Unto The Nations’ award in 2007. [3] This apparent conflict of interest is not addressed in the UN Panel’s report.

        uribe was a paid stooge for the bush war machine, when he wasn’t being a paid stooge for israel…

      • hophmi
        September 26, 2011, 11:28 am

        “the legal flaws of the Palmer Commission flotilla report”

        We know Annie. The UN is only relevant when it says things you agree with. Otherwise (see the Palmer Report and the report accusing Hezbollah), you complain.

      • eee
        September 26, 2011, 11:29 am

        So an opinion on mondoweiss is going to trump a UN report? Keep howling at the moon.

      • annie
        September 26, 2011, 11:31 am

        if the opinion is written by

        Richard Falk is a professor of international law and serves as the UN Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory; Phyllis Bennis is a Fellow of the Institute for Policy Studies and author of Understanding the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict: A Primer.

        vs a known columbian torturer why yes, it would.

      • Kathleen
        September 26, 2011, 11:39 am

        bingo…but for Hophmi etc rules, laws that apply to others just flat out do not apply to Israel.

      • James
        September 26, 2011, 11:40 am

        hophmi quote “The UN is only relevant when it says things you agree with.”

        gee, where have i seen that before? lol..

      • Doctor Pi
        September 26, 2011, 11:53 am

        eee,
        the Palmer Commission report is a joke and is not even an official report since both the Israeli and Turkish representatives have rejected it. There have been other views on the Gaza blockade (the entire shebang not just the naval one). The only people howling at the moon are you and your fellow apologists.

      • Chaos4700
        September 26, 2011, 1:34 pm

        It’s stunning how eee and the others will keep trumpeting a report HIS GOVERNMENT rejected. This is kind of like how Israel accepted the UN partition plan after it declared unilateral independence, ethnically cleansed most of its Arab population and seized land well in excess of the partition borders.

        Who does he really think buys this crap?

      • Charon
        September 26, 2011, 1:45 pm

        eee, you Zionists think that when the UN and international law is in favor of Israel, it is relevent. When not in favor of Israel, you say it is irrelevent

        There are no double standards. It was quite bold for Bibi to bring up Gilad Shalit and say it was a violation of international law. Israel, who violates international law on a daily basis. Israel who has hundreds of Palestinians prisoners in violation of international law. Pathetic

        The Palmer commission was made up of Americans, Turks, and Israelis. 2/3 of those were biased. The VP of the commission was Alvaro Uribe. The lobby played a role in the tone of the report. The commission should have been made up of outsiders.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2011, 4:55 pm

        No eee,

        A farcical and compromised UN Report with no authority to fete one legality claimed it was legal, which is meaningless. A more recent report from UN legal experts say otherwise.

        Not that a criminal, fascist apartheid state like Israel ever cared about the law anyway.

      • seafoid
        September 26, 2011, 11:07 am

        As long as the soldiers stay in Israel and never travel anywhere, Hophmi, they’ll be safe.

        For how many days could Israel manage a war against Turkey ?

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 11:20 am

        why are you obsessed with a war between Turkey and Israel?

        You probably said the same thing in ’67 too. the Turkish and Greek Airforce would own the Turkish airforce, Israel would disable their air defenses like they did in Syria and then it would be ’67 all over again.

      • Cliff
        September 26, 2011, 11:27 am

        Why are youb obsessed with victimhood? Israel kills civilians on a boat outside it’s waters, after the IDF drops on top of them. And you’re excusing it.

        You have no credibility or moral high ground. Why do you come to MW?

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 11:46 am

        Cliff, can you please stay focused? I am not excusing anything, I was replying to seafoid’s warmongering. if you want to reply to what I am talking about fine, if not why don’t you tuck your talking points away.

        Why are you on MW if you can’t add anything but your overplayed talking points.

      • Chaos4700
        September 26, 2011, 1:30 pm

        It’s astounding that Israel can literally generate a mountain of corpses and her zealots will climb it and plant a flag with a Star of David right on top of it.

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 1:42 pm

        mountain of corpses? what are we even talking about here anymore? did we jump back to caste lead now? LOL you guys are impossible to follow.

      • lysias
        September 26, 2011, 1:45 pm

        Americas I’ve talked to who fought in the Korean War have told me how impressed they were with the quality of Turkish soldiers.

      • Charon
        September 26, 2011, 1:48 pm

        DBG, it would be nothing like ’67. That was a pre-planned preemptive war. When Israel doesn’t plan for a war you get ’73 where they got owned and cried to the US for support with the threat of nuking Egypt and Syria.

        If Israel provokes a war with Turkey, Western powers would have to respond… to Israel. As conflicted as people are, it is the NATO policy.

      • seafoid
        September 26, 2011, 2:10 pm

        “why are you obsessed with a war between Turkey and Israel?”

        Your stablemate brought up the topic of war, habibi.

        “if so much as one hair on the head of one of these soldiers is touched by any Turkish official, it will be an act of war”

        Is there no communication at hasbara central?

        Israel can’t manage a long war . See how twitchy she got in 06 when the nice Jewish boys started dying in Lebanon.

      • Whizdom
        September 26, 2011, 3:05 pm

        A long, and proud military tradition, which they take very seriously. Terrific, ferocious fighters.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2011, 5:02 pm

        You probably said the same thing in ’67 too. the Turkish and Greek Airforce would own the Turkish airforce

         

        Haha, too funny. Haven’t you heard DBG? Greece is bankrupt and don’t own anything. They wouldn’t be able to buy the fuel to put those planes in the air.

        <blockquote<  Israel would disable their air defenses like they did in Syria and then it would be ’67 all over again.

        They would try, but Turkey ain’t Syria. Wars are won on the ground and we know Israelis are pussies when it comes to ground combat.

        It would be 2006 all over again, but much,  much worse for Israel.

      • justicewillprevail
        September 26, 2011, 11:09 am

        Well, that would make Israel’s callous and cold-blooded murder of the Turkish activists an act of war. I guess this the only language you understand. Publish the names of the Turkish officials – so what, you want them prosecuted for sending wheelchairs and medicine.
        As usual Israel thinks it can do as it wants – murder and theft – and isn’t accountable to anybody. When people try, they whine and threaten, like the cowards and bullies they are. Another own goal by Israel coming up, when it could have settled this affair with some contrition.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2011, 11:18 am

        “Not one of these soldiers will ever be prosecuted, and if so much as one hair on the head of one of these soldiers is touched by any Turkish official, it will be an act of war.”

        Interesting definition. Murder an unarmed Turkish-American, execution-style — okay with hophmi. Touch the hair of the murderer — act of war.

      • hophmi
        September 26, 2011, 11:30 am

        “Murder an unarmed Turkish-American, execution-style — okay with hophmi.”

        This “unarmed” person did not represent Turkey; neither did any of the other passengers. If they did represent Turkey, however, yes, running a blockade is an obvious act of war.

      • Kathleen
        September 26, 2011, 11:40 am

        go read the report. Many of these people shot at close range in the back of their heads.

      • Chaos4700
        September 26, 2011, 1:28 pm

        So let me get this straight — when Egypt operated a blockade, and Israeli ships challenged that, Egypt was committing the act of war. When Israel runs a blockade and EVERYONE ELSE challenges it, EVERYONE ELSE is guilty of an “obvious” act of war.

        That’s your stance? Based on… Jewish privilege, I guess, unless you can tell me what other common denominator makes Israel categorically innocent no matter what they do?

      • lysias
        September 26, 2011, 1:48 pm

        8 of the 9 were Turkish citizens on a Turkish-flagged vessel, i.e., Turkish soil.

        Dogan was a U.S. citizen killed on Turkish soil. And all that he was armed with was a camera.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2011, 2:59 pm

        “This “unarmed” person did not represent Turkey; neither did any of the other passengers.”

        So what? They were Turkish citizens. That makes it Turkey’s paramount concern to see that their murderers are brought to justice. The same would probably be true in the US if the Israel lobby didn’t have an Alien-facehugger-grip on the US government. Instead, Obama licks the ass of his murder. Shows you what a few well-placed dollars gets you…

      • kursato
        September 28, 2011, 5:55 pm

        “Forensic evidence showing that most of the deceased were shot multiple times, including in the back, or at close range has not beenadequately accounted for in the material presented by Israel

      • Cliff
        September 26, 2011, 11:25 am

        Violent activists. LOL

        Last time I checked it was the fascist thugs, the IDF, who boarded the ship in international waters and killed activists up close and personal.

        So to review hophmi as a person,

        He is apparently American but judge his love for this country by what he says. He uses the US as a punching bag to make Israel’s depravity look less deprave. He also cynically uses the shallow support among Americans for Israel (vague) as some kind of seal of approval.

        He has said Palestinians supported Hitler with the usual specious bullshit.

        He attempted to whitewash a pro-Israel, racist, propaganda cartoon by StandWithUs. Then when the racist artist affirmed what we and any honest person saw as obvious, he played down the racism as a political, purely political, cartoon.

        When Israel buys off the media or a politician, you can expect this anti-intellectual tin-foil hat wearing putz to disassemble until he’s blue and white in the face.

        And now we see that in spite of the fact that it was Turkish CIVILIANS wielding whatever was near them as the IDF dropped onto their ship from helicopters with rifles, who died and were killed up close to the head – somehow in Hophmi’s sick mind, Zio-Land, the IDF is the victim.

        No one but morally depraved racist freaks, Christian fundies and bought and paid for politicians, celebs, media people, et al, are on your side.

        The disgusting backwards, hypocritical and cynical things you and the other Zionists here off the short-bus say are fantastic in enlightening people to what Jewish nationalism looks like. Ugly.

      • Chaos4700
        September 26, 2011, 1:26 pm

        Your comments are pure awesomesauce, Cliff.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2011, 5:20 pm

        Superb summary. Of course, the sane observation could be made about Witty, DBG, LLI, eee, and Jonah.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2011, 4:45 pm

        Great. We’ll publish the names of all Turkish officials who allowed violent IHH activists to board the boat and attempt to run a legal international blockade, starting with Erdogan.

        Wow Hop,
         
        This one really set you off didn’t?

        I couldn’t imagine a more pathetic and lame comeback if I tried. Good luck with proving that Turkish officials had any involvement, or such involvement was any kind if crime. 

        Not one of these soldiers will ever be prosecuted, and if so much as one hair on the head of one of these soldiers is touched by any Turkish official, it will be an act of war.

        Israel wouldn’t dare take on the Turks, and if they did, it would be the last war they fight.

      • richb
        September 26, 2011, 8:26 pm

        Murder on a ship gives jurisdiction to the flag country. The largest diplomatic row between the U.S. and Italy was over the murder of Klinghoffer on the Achille Lauro. Italy since it was the flag country demanded jurisdiction over the hijackers and Abu Abbas. Reagan intercepted the plane going to Egypt and had it land on a NATO base in Sicily. It got so bad that Carabierni and Navy Seals lined up against each other. When Abu Abbas was captured in Iraq, Italy still demanded extradiction. Abu Abbas died of “natural causes” the next day.

      • richb
        September 26, 2011, 8:37 pm

        Of course, readers will see one key difference. In the case of the Achille Lauro where an American citizen was murdered on an Italian cruise ship both countries wanted to prosecute the murderers to the point that their respective militaries lined up against each other. In the case of the Marvi Marmara where an American citizen was murdered on a Turkish cruise ship only the Turks want to prosecute. In one case the murderers were Palestinians and in the other the murderers were Israelis. Do you all think that might have something to do with the difference?

      • Koshiro
        September 26, 2011, 8:30 pm

        and if so much as one hair on the head of one of these soldiers is touched by any Turkish official

        … Israel will whine, protest and bitch to no avail. Which is why all of these guys are going to cancel any future trips to countries that might extradite them to Turkey.

      • RoHa
        September 26, 2011, 8:37 pm

        “We’ll publish”

        “We”? You mean Americans?

        “allowed violent IHH activists to board the boat”

        Of course, you should find evidence that there were violent IHH activists on board, but you will probably just keep screaming that they were there.

        “a legal international blockade”

        It isn’t legal, and it isn’t international.

      • yourstruly
        September 26, 2011, 10:35 pm

        once the turkish government issues arrest warrants for the accused murderers, they’ll be bounty hunters looking for them, a 21st century version of the nazi huiters of yesteryear

    • annie
      September 26, 2011, 11:05 am

      great interview katheen, thanks

    • Woody Tanaka
      September 26, 2011, 11:22 am

      “Pictures and names…now that is getting specific. Hope folks stay peaceful. Demand that they go on trial at ICC.”

      I hope so to. However, the Israelis have repeatedly engaged in extra-judicial killings. So they would really have no cause to complain if someone decided to pull an operation like that against their people.

      • hophmi
        September 26, 2011, 11:30 am

        “So they would really have no cause to complain if someone decided to pull an operation like that against their people.”

        Terrorists have been engaged in murder of Israelis for the past century.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2011, 12:49 pm

        And Israeli terrorists, such as these, have likewise been engaged in murder of those who oppose them, for the past century, including the cold-blooded murder of my fellow American. What’s your point?

      • Chaos4700
        September 26, 2011, 1:25 pm

        You know, the last bit of terrorism in Norway before the recent massacre was an Israeli assassination of a Moroccan waiter. Right?

        And out of curiosity, how did terrorist murder Israelis before 1948? Time travel?

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 1:37 pm

        this might interest you Chaos.

        link to start.umd.edu

      • mig
        September 26, 2011, 3:44 pm

        Good link DBG. Look at the targets :

        “The target of the attack was Mullah Krekar.Kurdish.”

        “The U.S. Embassy was targeted. Fake powder.”

        “Oslo Jewish Synagogue”

        “McDonalds in Oslo, Norway. A note at the scene said the attack was a protest against the Iraq war.”

        “Rival Biker Gang”

        “House ocupied by left-wing youths. Neo-Nazi Group (suspected)”

        “Iranian Embassy. Anti-Iran Government Exiles”

        “Turkish Embassy. Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK)”

        “Turkish Embassy”

        “Turkish Embassy”

        “Police Headquarters”

        “Iranian Embassy”

        “Iranian Embassy”

        “Aeroflot. Tupolev TU 504, Oslo to Moscow”

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2011, 5:26 pm

         Terrorists have been engaged in murder of Israelis for the past century. 

         

        Don’t think of it as murder Hop, think of it as extra judicial killings, collateral damage, or in the case of the settlers, human shields.

      • libra
        September 26, 2011, 7:42 pm

        hophmi: “Terrorists have been engaged in murder of Israelis for the past century.”

        How can this be possible? Last time I checked Israel didn’t exist before 1948. But then perhaps Israel’s date of birth can keep being pushed out just like its borders. I’m beginning to wonder whether anything is permanent about this very peculiar place.

      • lysias
        September 26, 2011, 1:51 pm

        No need to kill them. Just kidnap them and bring them to the Hague.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2011, 2:54 pm

        Lysias,

        I would prefer that they be brought to trial, but bringing them to justice in the paramount concern.

  5. Kathleen
    September 26, 2011, 10:56 am

    I don’t believe Secretary of State Clinton has ever responded to Col Ann Wrights letters about the killing of Furkan Dogan
    link to open.salon.com
    Dear Secretary of State Clinton,

    I am a retired US Army reserve colonel with 29 years in the US Army and Army Reserves, and a former US diplomat who resigned after 16 years in the US State Department in opposition to the war on Iraq.

    I was one of fourteen American citizens on the Gaza flotilla.

    On June 14, 2010, I delivered to the Bureau of Consular Affairs, Office of American Citizen Services a letter to you requesting investigation of the Israeli attack on the Gaza flotilla in which one unarmed American citizen was killed by Israeli commandos and fourteen other American citizens were kidnapped from international waters and taken to Israel against their will, imprisoned, and their personal possessions stolen by Israeli commandos.

    Despite numerous inquiries to the State Department about the status of the response to my letter, after seven weeks I have not received a response to the letter, nor to the 80 questions that I requested that the United States government pose to the Israeli government concerning their attack on the Gaza flotilla.

    As an American citizen, I am distressed that no one in the State Department government will respond to this request for assistance.

    • Les
      September 26, 2011, 11:32 am

      While Clinton surely knows she does not have truth on her side, she takes comfort that God surely is.

  6. pabelmont
    September 26, 2011, 11:29 am

    Assuming the correctness of this list, one wonders: WHO WERE THE OFFICERS and HIGHER-UPS who gave the orders? I would far prefer to indict THEM.

    In future actions, ALL IDFers will wear FULL-HIJAB (i.e., black balaclavas) and no recognition of individuals will be possible.

    Anyone know if such disguise is illegal, or takes the soldier outside the protections of Geneva Conventions?

    • annie
      September 26, 2011, 11:36 am

      pabelmont, i think the graphic above addresses the higher ups.

    • lysias
      September 26, 2011, 1:52 pm

      It would be interesting to know the ranks of the people in the list.

      • annie
        September 26, 2011, 2:54 pm

        just google their names. some of them pop right up. like the first one Agai Yehezkel, RANK Brigadier General.

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 3:02 pm

        Why would a general in the Armored Corp be included in this list?

      • Kathleen
        September 27, 2011, 8:22 am

        And if Turkey had killed/executed 8 Israeli human rights activist and one US/Israeli dual citizen and shot several of them in the back of the head at close range (go read the report). The Israeli government/Mossad would surely knock every individual off one by one. No matter how many years it took

  7. hophmi
    September 26, 2011, 11:34 am

    It is apparently the IHH that compiled this list, not Turkish intelligence.

    http://www.todayszaman.com/news-257966–prosecutor-facebook-flotilla-attackers-list-drawn-up-by-ihh.html

    • annie
      September 26, 2011, 11:47 am

      interesting

      The statement comes in response to a report by the Sabah daily on Monday which said MİT, responding to a request from the İstanbul Chief Prosecutor’s Office, had obtained information on the identities of the Israeli soldiers who killed eight Turkish citizens and one Turkish-American in last year’s flotilla raid, identifying almost all of the soldiers who took part in the deadly raid through Facebook.

      Sabah alleged in its story that the İstanbul Chief Prosecutor’s Office had earlier written to Israeli authorities requesting the full names and residential addresses of the military and government officials who gave the orders to attack the flotilla, in addition to information about those who carried out the orders. Israel refused to provide the information, so the prosecutor asked MİT to share any intelligence information it had so far collected about the Israeli raid.

      Sabah said that upon the request of Mehmet Akif Ekinci, the prosecutor conducting the investigation, intelligence units first examined images of the raid and then launched “a commando hunt” on social networking websites such as Facebook and Twitter. They also reportedly examined pictures of a visit by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to the top-security Flotilla 13 base on the Israeli coast near Haifa, which conducted the flotilla raid, in October of last year, to identify the soldiers present. After identifying a few soldiers, Hebrew-speaking experts examined their online correspondence with other Israeli soldiers who are thought to have taken part in the Mavi Marmara raid, and were able to identify more of those involved via their “friends” lists on Facebook. The names of the soldiers were also reportedly confirmed by the Turkish intelligence units’ sources in Israel.

      well, there are bound to be different statements made so we will have to keep abreast of the news on this.

      • lysias
        September 26, 2011, 1:57 pm

        I imagine there was a lot of special forces cooperation between Israel and Turkey in the past. That would make a lot of Turkish military people able to identify many of their Israeli counterparts.

        Anybody who wanted the Turkish military not to cooperate with Erdogan made a very dumb move if he helped the PKK Kurdish rebels to mount that rocket attack on the Turkish naval base at Iskenderun (the base, near the Syrian border, from which any Turkish naval assistance to the flotilla would have come) two hours before the Israeli attack on the Freedom Flotilla. A PKK attack that killed six Turkish sailors.

    • DBG
      September 26, 2011, 11:49 am

      I am sure they worked hand in hand w/ the MIT. Saber rattling w/ Israel is Erdogan’s pet project, I am sure he pulled out all the stops on this one.

      • Chaos4700
        September 26, 2011, 1:22 pm

        Saber rattling? Did you miss the part where Israel KILLED TURKISH CIVILIANS? You know, and an American civilian, whom is apparently too brown for you to care about?

      • hophmi
        September 26, 2011, 1:38 pm

        Turkish citizens?

        Can we get clarity on this?

        Were they there representing Turkey or were they there are internationals? If they were there representing Turkey then we have a declaration of war. If they were there as internationals, then it’s different.

        PICK.

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 1:39 pm

        too brown for me to care about? how do you know how brown I am? how does accusing me of being a racist help your cause Chaos?

      • lysias
        September 26, 2011, 2:46 pm

        If a person isn’t representing his country, that makes it OK to kill him?

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2011, 2:51 pm

        “If they were there representing Turkey then we have a declaration of war.”

        No, dumbass. You might have an “act” of war, such as Israel has committed with impunity against its neighbors on regular basis and has for decades. (It wouldn’t be, but let’s just pretend…) A declaration of war requires, as the term suggests, a declaration.

      • hophmi
        September 26, 2011, 3:08 pm

        “You might have an “act” of war”

        Act, declaration. I care not. Act of war is fine. As far as I know, the Israeli government has never committed an act of war against Turkey.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2011, 3:14 pm

        “As far as I know, the Israeli government has never committed an act of war against Turkey.”

        Except for the whole piracy-on-the-high-seas-and-murder-of-its-citizens-in-international-water thing, no doubt.

      • hophmi
        September 26, 2011, 3:34 pm

        So again, just to be clear, are you saying that the Mavi Marmara was officially representing Turkey and that Turkey committed an act of war by trying to run Israel’s blockade?

        Damn, why can’t you just pick an interpretation?

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2011, 4:16 pm

        What the hell are you talking about??? My position is that a bunch of pigs in uniform pirated a ship in international waters and murdered, in cold blood, my fellow American. And, to add insult to injury, the American government refuses to do anything about it. And, no, it does not appear that they were officially repsenting Turkey. I never suggested they were. That’s your delusion.

      • mig
        September 26, 2011, 4:18 pm

        Were Israel ships representing Israel state when they sailed against Egypt blockade ?

      • richb
        September 26, 2011, 7:43 pm

        No hophmi, the maritime terrorism treaty that Israel signed gives jurisdiction to the flag country (and the port country) on terrorist acts against ships in international waters. This jurisdiction includes criminal prosecution of the alleged terrorists.

    • Woody Tanaka
      September 26, 2011, 12:02 pm

      Well, whoever compiled the list, good job. May they all be brought to justice, one way or another.

    • annie
      September 26, 2011, 2:59 pm

      hophmi, re your allegation the IHH compiled this list, they didn’t. i heard from my friend in turkey.

      Regarding the Zaman article.

      Quote –

      İstanbul Deputy Public Prosecutor Ateş Hasan Sözen told Today’s Zaman that the İstanbul Prosecutor’s Office did not order any state institution to identify the soldiers. “No state institution had such a request, nor does it have any information on this. The prosecutor conducting the investigation has given no such order,”

      – end quote

      This investigtion was done directly under the auspices of the Prime Ministers office as part of the Turkish panel’s investigation.

      Quote –

      a list of Israelis — reportedly prepared as a result of a Facebook search — has been drawn up by the Humanitarian Aid Foundation (İHH), the Turkish charity that owned the raided ship.

      – end quote

      A – notice ‘a’ NOT ‘the’ - list was drawn up by IHH and was submitted to the government. They are trying to be involved and help out. I wish they wouldn’t. The passenger statements given during the investigations are more than enough.

      I know people who were asked questions during these investigations.

      It is possible that Istanbul Deputy Public Prosecutor Ateş Hasan Sözen is talking about something which he knows nothing about – notice ‘Deputy’ Public Prosecutor.

      it does seem unlikely a deputy public defender for the city of istanbul is involved in this investigation run out of the turkish governments ministry of justice. that would be akin to having a deputy public defender for the city of chicago making statements about something holder is prosecuting. whole different branch of government, but then i don’t know enough about the turkish government to be sure. let’s hear what Mehmet Akif Ekinci of Turkey’s Ministry of Justice has to say before jumping to conclusions.

      • hophmi
        September 26, 2011, 3:11 pm

        It’s not my assertion. It’s what the article said. This is the headline:

        “Prosecutor: Facebook flotilla attackers list drawn up by İHH”

      • Chaos4700
        September 26, 2011, 8:57 pm

        And it doesn’t make sense for the victims to be involved in making the accusation?

  8. Dex
    September 26, 2011, 1:24 pm

    This is excellent news. In order to be held accountable, we have to know the names of these people; we have to know who fired the shots that killed innocents, and who dropped the bombs that did the same. Israel goes to great lengths to shield the identities of these people.

    As Ilan Pappe says, it is not enough to just say “Israel did this, or Zionists did that” — we have to document the names, faces, and actions of these criminals so they can be rightfully brought to justice.

    Seems that things are moving in this direction.

    The Zionists project is unraveling before our very eyes. No surprise, all racists ideologies eventually die…

  9. lysias
    September 26, 2011, 2:28 pm

    I count 167 names in that list.

  10. lysias
    September 26, 2011, 2:54 pm

    According to JPost, the Israeli government is taking this report very seriously: IDF to legally protect ‘Marmara’ raid soldiers: After Turkish news reports claim intelligence agencies complied list identifying 174 soldiers, IDF takes legal precautions.:

    The IDF is taking legal precautions to protect soldiers and officers who participated in the operation to stop the Mavi Marmara Turkish passenger ship, senior defense officials said on Monday after Turkish news reports claimed intelligence agencies had compiled a list identifying 174 soldiers who could be prosecuted for their involvement in the operation.

    Related Ha’aretz story: Gaza flotilla probe to examine IDF’s handling of past war crimes charges: Investigation by Turkel Commission meant to determine if IDF soldiers would be exposed to prosecution in foreign countries according to international law.:

    A governmental commission that investigated the Israel Defense Forces’ 2010 raid of a Gaza-bound flotilla is now probing the army’s ability to investigate war crime charges levied against its own soldiers.

    International law stipulates that for soldiers of one country to be prosecuted by another the country in which the war crime was committed has to be proven as unable to properly investigate the incident.

    How’s that supposed to protect the Israeli soldiers? The murders on the Mavi Marmara were committed on Turkish soil (a Turkish vessel) in international waters.

    • annie
      September 26, 2011, 3:07 pm

      International law stipulates that for soldiers of one country to be prosecuted by another the country in which the war crime was committed has to be proven as unable to properly investigate the incident.

      but the crime didn’t take place in israel. it took place in international waters.

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 3:16 pm

        Turkish intelligence put those ‘activists’ on the Mavi Marmara to martyr themselves so they could then sever ties with Israel. It is pretty obvious this was an intelligence operation perpetrated by the MIT from the start.

        the MIT and the Pakistani ISI are cut from the same cloth.

      • lysias
        September 26, 2011, 3:46 pm

        If this is going to be the new hasbara spin on MİT, an organization that has a long history of cooperating with U.S. and Israeli intelligence, I don’t think Israel is going to get much of the support from the Turkish military that it has been hoping for.

        Speaking of intelligence operations before the attack on the Freedom Flotilla, how about that PKK Kurdish rebel attack on the Turkish naval base at İskenderun near the Syrian border, the base from which any Turkish naval support for the flotilla would have come, two hours before the Israeli attack on the flotilla?

      • Charon
        September 26, 2011, 4:50 pm

        LOL@DBG

        Seems you guys have an excuse for everything. Interpret people’s actions and make up stories to justify immoral behavior. There is zero evidence to support your claim. Bullets rained down on the activists prior to the fast roping. They weren’t plastic either. Israel interpreted it as a provocation justifying a military response to send a message. Unfortunately it didn’t exactly send a good message.

        It’s funny you would come up with something outrageous like that yet shrug off the far more incriminating circumstantial evidence indicating that Israel had something to do with 9/11 and foreknowledge at the very least.

      • seafoid
        September 26, 2011, 4:57 pm

        Charon

        What have you got linking Israel to 9/11 ? It makes a lot of sense

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2011, 5:49 pm

         Turkish intelligence put those ‘activists’ on the Mavi Marmara to martyr themselves so they could then sever ties with Israel.

        Get a new tinfoil hat NBG. Where did you read that? The someplace that says one man one vote means a one world government?

        It is pretty obvious this was an intelligence operation perpetrated by the MIT from the start.

        And the moon landing was fake too right?

      • lysias
        September 26, 2011, 6:46 pm

        Justin Raimondo’s book The Terror Enigma lays out a lot of the evidence that Israelis at least had foreknowledge of 9/11. And it’s sourced with a lot of footnotes to mainstream media reports.

      • Antidote
        September 27, 2011, 10:09 am

        lysias, I don’t know the book, but my understanding is that Israel (and many other countries) had issued plenty of warnings to the US – some of them precise enough to have Pentagon generals cancel their flights for the morning of 9/11. You find a list here:

        link to projectcensored.org

        To come up with an answer re who did it as fast as the Bush admin did would indicate that they knew who did it before it was done, which raises the question why air defense failed rather than be on high alert, and why the POTUS had nothing more urgent to do than reading children stories in Florida. Warning fatique? Gross negligence? Inside job? One caveat surely applies here: Never ascribe to malice what can be sufficiently explained with incompetence.

    • seafoid
      September 26, 2011, 3:23 pm

      Turkish news reports claimed intelligence agencies had compiled a list identifying 174 soldiers

      I wonder what help the Turks got from foreign intelligence agencies. It’s Lieberman vs the World (- the US) and it doesn’t matter how hot the Shin Bet and Mossad are (forget about the shoddiness in Dubai for a moment) – they just don’t have the resources to fight the world. At the end of the day Zionism is 5.5 million Jews. Lieberman is a fruitcake.

  11. ToivoS
    September 26, 2011, 3:01 pm

    I understand there are interpol warrants out for those 20 or so Mossad assassins that carried out that killing in Dhubai and now another group of Israelis will have international arrest warrants chasing them. This keeps up a significant proportion of the Israeli population will be confined to staying on that sliver of land on the Eastern Mediterranean. It must be getting a little claustrophobic for them.

    • seafoid
      September 26, 2011, 3:27 pm

      “It must be getting a little claustrophobic for them.”

      The deeper into the occupation they go, the more they cut off themselves from the outside world. It’s like a trance. Some sort of hasidic chant state. Israel isn’t run rationally any more. So they lose Turkey, they lose Egypt, they alienate Europe. Underlying it all is their belief in their own superiority and the belief in technology.

  12. Whizdom
    September 26, 2011, 3:13 pm

    I think the Mavis Marmara was flagged in the Comoros Islands, so they have jurisdiction. I seem to recall that the Chief of Staff (Ashkenazi ) and Defense Minister (Barak) both denied giving the order to proceed, this was the day after it happened.

    I, personally, am uncomfortable with listing the names of the troops and junior officers, they are as much victims of this misbegotten, poorly conceived and executed operation. The senior guys, yes, absolutely.

    • Taxi
      September 26, 2011, 3:58 pm

      Junior soldiers should still be punished accordingly – they always have the choice of refusing orders if they deem them ‘irregular’ to their understanding of their duties, hence the refuseniks.

    • richb
      September 26, 2011, 8:52 pm

      One interesting thing about the Comoros Islands. While both Turkey and Israel are not parties to the ICC, the Comoros Islands is.

  13. jon s
    September 26, 2011, 3:21 pm

    If this list indicates the quality of their information , we have nothing to worry about. For example :Avi Bnayahu is the former IDF spokesperson, Yom-Tov Samia was retired from the IDF in 2001, Eliezer Shkedi commanded the IAF until 2008 and is now CEO of ElAl…and that’s just from a first glance at the list. It looks like they just Googled “IDF” and posted whatever names appeared .

    • seafoid
      September 26, 2011, 3:31 pm

      More info, Jon. It’s great.
      The thing about the Ziobots is they can’t stop.

      Eliezer Shkedi won’t be travelling to Turkey again.

    • DBG
      September 26, 2011, 3:36 pm

      yeah, I have tried that with a few ppl, outside of bibi, barak and ashkenazi, I really am doubting the credibility of this report.

    • Chaos4700
      September 26, 2011, 10:51 pm

      TOTALLY unlike the IDF stormtroopers themselves who bomb hospitals, schools, mosques, fishing boats, refugee camps, ambulances, UN personnel, etc. and then pretend like every civilian they murder is a terrorist.

  14. DBG
    September 26, 2011, 3:40 pm

    funny the list annie printed above looks alot like this list regarding caste lead:

    this gets more laughable by the hour.

    link to site.www.umb.edu

    • eee
      September 26, 2011, 4:19 pm

      You are right, this list is basically a copy of those of Cast Lead. Ynet rips it apart:
      link to ynet.co.il

      (no English translation yet)

      Seems you have been taken for a ride Annie and that the Turks behind this list are just plain idiots.

      • annie
        September 26, 2011, 4:36 pm

        (no English translation yet)

        try google.

        Champions reserve Ami Ayalon and Ze’ev Almog Although performed Sea Force commander and commander of Squadron 13, but they retired from the army many years ago, and Elon even visited before the action on the Marmara. Also are listed.

        really?Ami Ayalon is not on this list. neither is Ze’ev Almog. where is the list published in hebrew? can you find it? it looks like they might be working off a different list than the one published by the turkish government.

      • James
        September 26, 2011, 5:37 pm

        annie when it comes to israel, the name of the game is ‘obfuscate’…..

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2011, 5:55 pm

        You are right, this list is basically a copy of those of Cast Lead.

        They would be war criminals too, in which case, the liar is just as useful.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2011, 6:10 pm

        Seems you have been taken for a ride Annie and that the Turks behind this list are just plain idiots.

        Based on the JPost report cited above, it appears the IDF are also fakling for it.

    • seafoid
      September 26, 2011, 5:04 pm

      Funny isn’t it? As funny as Doron Almog staying in his El Al plane on the tarmac at Heathrow for 2 hours instead of disembarking as originally planned so he wouldn’t be arrested.

      link to independent.co.uk

      There will be no hiding place for people who kill for the Jewish state.

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 7:29 pm

        you guys can all continue to try to deflect from annie’s post, but the fact is this list is a fraud.

      • richb
        September 26, 2011, 8:10 pm

        It’s not for us to determine but rather the prosecutor. Neither my nor your opinion counts. Mehmet Akif Ekinci’s does.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2011, 8:19 pm

        you guys can all continue to try to deflect from annie’s post, but the fact is this list is a fraud.

        No DBG,

        The fact is that you and eee are desperate to beleve it is.

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 10:54 pm

        how can you not admit this one Shingo, seriously? it is the exact same list as the one which was posted on an anti-Israel website following caste lead? the fact that you can’t admit this simple fact is mind blowing to me.

      • Taxi
        September 26, 2011, 10:58 pm

        LOL Shingo you crack me up!

      • annie
        September 26, 2011, 11:02 pm

        cough it up big shot. publish it. where’s your evidence? show me this exact list from cast lead. of the soldiers.

      • Chaos4700
        September 26, 2011, 11:07 pm

        You don’t even consider what was done to Furkan Dogan to be a crime, DBG. And then there’s the HUNDREDS of children that were murdered in Operation Cast Lead itself, which you endorse.

        You have no business calling anyone else a denier, Denier.

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 11:15 pm

        for the second time (on this thread annie) here is the list which was being circulated on anti-Israel websites (with zero proof anyone but the highest echelon had anything to do with caste lead)

        now compare the names on the list you provided us, it is laughable.

        link to site.www.umb.edu

        link to ynetnews.com

      • annie
        September 26, 2011, 11:25 pm

        gee how impressive/not. lets’s check out the first 5 on your link:

        201001250016 2010-01-25 Norway Oslo Unknown 0 1 Terrorists Western Europe Armed Assault Firearms
        200812170026 2008-12-17 Norway Oslo Unknown 0 0 Government (Diplomatic) Western Europe Armed Assault Fake Weapons
        200609170015 2006-09-17 Norway Oslo Individual 0 0 Private Citizens & Property Western Europe Facility/Infrastructure Attack Firearms
        200303210002 2003-03-21 Norway Oslo Unknown 0 0 Business Western Europe Facility/Infrastructure Attack Incendiary
        199603100001 1996-03-10 Norway Oslo Unknown 0 1 Private Citizens & Property Western Europe Assassination

        checking 201001250016:

        01/25/2010: On Monday night at 0200, the home of Mullah Krekar, a Kurdish cleric who helped found the militant Islamist group Ansar al-Islam, was targeted by unknown gunmen in the Toyen district in Oslo, Norway. Shots were fired through a window, on the fifth floor while several people were at his home, wounding one man. After shots were fired, two men were seen running from the scene. No group has claimed responsibility for the attack.

        woa, nothing like proving your point/not. here’s #2

        Incident Summary:
        12/17/2008: On Wednesday, letters containing white powder were mailed to the United States (U.S.) embassy in Oslo, Oslo, Norway. Letters were also sent to 17 other U.S. embassies across Europe. The letters were post-marked from Texas but no group claimed responsibility for the attacks. The powder has been found to be harmless.

        what’s your point? where’s the cast lead data? quit wasting our time .put up or stfu.

      • annie
        September 26, 2011, 11:28 pm

        as an aside i was around blogging here after cast lead. i have no recollection of turkey publishing a list of war criminals so i’d like to see it. certainly it hit the mainstream did it not? so where is it?

        or are you full of hot air? replacing real data with bogus links?

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 11:32 pm

        annie, what are you talking about?

        link to site.www.umb.edu

        you are missing the point, Turkey didn’t publish a list, it was published on some anti-zionist website. the “turkish intelligence” merely recycled the names and said they were responsible for the flotilla. OMG annie, are you tired or something? why is this so hard to grasp?

      • Taxi
        September 26, 2011, 11:41 pm

        Go gedim annie girl! LOL! DGB is messing with Sherlock Holmes’s researcher and muse!

      • Chaos4700
        September 27, 2011, 12:15 am

        DBG is a liar and a propagandist, plain and simple. Why else would he calling US veterans who survived an Israeli attack “whiners?”

      • annie
        September 27, 2011, 12:21 am

        the “turkish intelligence” merely recycled the names and said they were responsible for the flotilla.

        so cough it up dude. where did the turkish intelligence republish these names and claim they were responsible? don’t give me 3rd hand sites. you’ve been bloviating all over this thread, so cough it up or stfu.

      • DBG
        September 27, 2011, 12:31 am

        annie, the site which hosted the data originally was taken down because their actions were against the terms of service.. can you read?

        link to ynetnews.com

      • annie
        September 27, 2011, 12:36 am

        taxi, dbg is a joke. his new link provides nothing connecting turkey to this info.

      • Chaos4700
        September 27, 2011, 9:11 am

        YNet also claims that there were bombs in every single mosque in Gaza. Don’t believe everything you’re spoon-fed by your foreign masters, DBG.

      • DBG
        September 27, 2011, 10:13 am

        Chaos, will you show me a link where YNET claimed there were bombs in EVERY SINGLE mosque in Gaza? if not quit lying.

    • Shingo
      September 26, 2011, 6:16 pm

      this gets more laughable by the hour.

      So why isn’t the IDF getting the joke then DBG?

      IDF to legally protect ‘Marmara’ raid soldiers: After Turkish news reports claim intelligence agencies complied list identifying 174 soldiers, IDF takes legal precautions.:

      link to jpost.com

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 7:28 pm

        Shingo, stay focused man, did you see the lists were exactly the same between caste lead and the flotilla. Do you find that odd that an artillery commander would be on the list of those responsible for the flotilla attacks?

        The lists, probably both of them, are complete BS. If you look at the girl in as the #8 most wanted war criminal in Israel, she would have been 20 when they listed her as a commander during Caste Lead. I doubt the IDF has any 20 year old women who are commanders.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2011, 8:38 pm

        I’m always focused tin foil hat man,

        did you see the lists were exactly the same between caste lead and the flotilla

        Did you see how alarmed the Israeli government responded? Why do these individuals all need protecting if they are not war criminals? Cast LEasd was a war crime, so these people are criminals regardless of whether they commited crimes against the Marvi Marmara or Cast Lead.

  15. benedict
    September 26, 2011, 5:36 pm

    Lo and behold! Turns out that the perpetrators of the mavi marmara massacre are exactly the same people involved in operation cast lead. Who would have believed?

    Kudos to the great Turkish intelligence for there amazing breakthrough.

    • annie
      September 26, 2011, 5:54 pm

      since cast lead called up reservists it stands to reason most of their standing military participated in cast lead. so why wouldn’t most of the soldiers involved in the raid have participated in cast lead? how does this ‘prove’ anything.

      besides, all this means is those people could be tried in turkey or where ever else they plan on prosecuting. israel and the citizen of israel should consider the rules of law and war and understand not everyone is going to go along with israel flipping the bird at international law.

  16. annie
    September 26, 2011, 5:57 pm

    yes, you have a strange mind american. most people don’t go in for assassinations. that’s a state thing and a rightwing extremist thing. zionism is embedded in both the state and the rightwing.

    • Antidote
      September 27, 2011, 3:28 am

      “that’s a state thing and a rightwing extremist thing. zionism is embedded in both the state and the rightwing”

      Surely terrorism and assassination is not a ‘right wing’ phenomenon? Maybe in the US which doesn’t have a Left

      link to en.wikipedia.org

      The RAF certainly went in for assassinations. And that’s true for the Royal Air Force and the Red Army Faction

  17. benedict
    September 26, 2011, 6:34 pm

    Really, annie? How about “anna strelski, mortar teaching instructor”?

    are you sure she was also part of the Israeli force stopping the marmara?

    • Chaos4700
      September 26, 2011, 10:52 pm

      Oh, I suppose she was busy teaching soldiers how to hit children with white phosphorous at the time. Good alibi!

    • annie
      September 26, 2011, 11:09 pm

      are you sure she was also part of the Israeli force stopping the marmara?

      that’s what trials are for. i’m a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty. bring on the trials.

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 11:13 pm

        trials? what are you talking about? do you honestly think this list is going anywhere? Turkey would be the laughing stock of the world if they tried to charge an artillery ‘commander’ for a naval mission where no artillery was involved.

      • annie
        September 26, 2011, 11:16 pm

        laughing stock of the world ?

        in your dreams. more like heroes.

      • Chaos4700
        September 27, 2011, 12:16 am

        DBG hearts murderous war criminals. (As long as they’re, you know, Jewish like him.)

      • eee
        September 27, 2011, 12:38 am

        Annie,

        Why didn’t the “brave” Turks allow the second Gaza flotilla to leave from their shores?

        The list is a joke DBG is absolutely right:
        link to ynetnews.com

      • annie
        September 27, 2011, 12:52 am

        denial denial denial. but israel would know about grabbing relatives and holding them ransom for others now wouldn’t they? wassamatta eee, no fair? seriously, i have no idea. but i will tell you one thing, grabbing a quote from one deputy prosecutor for the city of istanbul doesn’t quite cut it for a federal investigation. but then again since all the israel citizens have bailed out of turkey along with the ambassador maybe they were hard up for connections. bummer. cheerio.

      • DBG
        September 27, 2011, 1:20 am

        Here is a full list published on November 19th 2010, it is the exact same list Annie has from above. the majority have zero to do with the Navy, how could they be implicated in the flotilla raid?

        link to s242816488.onlinehome.us

        And here is the Mondoweiss article about it:

        link to mondoweiss.net

        (notice the link no longer works like it said in the Ynet article)

        Here is Annie commenting on it. Annie, you should have arranged your list as a deck of cards, it would have been a fulfillment of your with from November 17th

        link to mondoweiss.net

      • Chaos4700
        September 27, 2011, 1:27 am

        YNet! Where the Zionist fifth column all over the world gets their propaganda hasbara “news.”

      • jon s
        September 27, 2011, 5:23 am

        DBG, thanks for that. I happen to know the name of a soldier who actually was on the Mavi Marmara. He’s not on the list.

      • Shingo
        September 27, 2011, 7:40 am

        I happen to know the name of a soldier who actually was on the Mavi Marmara.

        Is the murderer a friend of yours jon?

      • DBG
        September 27, 2011, 10:03 am

        NP, it just amazes me how it is all laid out here and they still don’t believe it. it is pretty sad.

      • Chaos4700
        September 27, 2011, 6:50 pm

        So jon, tell us his name. Let’s verify this.

      • jon s
        September 28, 2011, 4:29 am

        I didn’t say that I know the guy personally, just that I know the name. And I wouldn’t use the term “murderer”. The soldiers were fighting for their lives.

      • Shingo
        September 28, 2011, 5:30 am

        They turned up with guns, a list of targets to kill, an commited an act of piracy on a ship in international waters. They also shot at teh ship adn killed on passenger before they even boarded, so yes, I would certainly use the term “murderer”.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 28, 2011, 9:35 am

        “The soldiers were fighting for their lives.”

        Should have thought of that before they tried to blitzkrieg the ship.

      • Chaos4700
        September 28, 2011, 7:54 pm

        Fighting for the lives… against unarmed people… after hijacking their ship in open seas.

        Give us his name, jon. Prove that this list is inaccurate, or back off. Because I get the impression you’re lying.

  18. eGuard
    September 26, 2011, 6:39 pm

    A lot of hophmi and eee here. We’re on the right track. It smelled from the start, of course.

    • Charon
      September 26, 2011, 8:13 pm

      Their names are probably on the list

      Got a feeling that Hasbarists are often ‘connected’ and not just people in some think tank getting paid by the hour. Apparently they’ve even foreshadowing coming events (I think it was Al Jazeera where a comment spoke an invasion of Lebanon before it happened)

    • Chaos4700
      September 26, 2011, 9:00 pm

      A lot of fifth column DBG too. Were that he cared about US soldiers as much as he apparently cares about IDF soldiers.

  19. ToivoS
    September 26, 2011, 7:12 pm

    My, my this subject seems to have hit an exposed nerve in our local hasbara community. Of the 123 comment so far on this thread they have posted 30. The faux defiance, threats and nonchalance they display give off the unmistakable odor of fear.

    Another plank being placed into the wall of isolation being slowly built around Israel.

  20. longliveisrael
    September 26, 2011, 8:42 pm

    Why do we worry? Is this the first time our enemies have compiled lists of Jews? As we say, Ani Mashtin aleyhem

    • Chaos4700
      September 26, 2011, 10:49 pm

      Gosh, yeah, and with Turkey hijacking ships, gassing your peaceful protesters, waging pogroms, burning whole orchards and demolishing cisterns, using munitions to set CHILDREN on fire, demolishing hospitals and schools and mosques, and… oh wait. That’s what your state is doing. My mistake!

    • annie
      September 26, 2011, 11:13 pm

      lists of Jews?

      how convenient! make an ethnic state and then when they commit war crimes pretend we notice because of their ethnicity! yeah, we don’t like your war crimes because we’re…racist! how convenient. seriously guys, is this drummed into you since birth? get a grip. excuses excuses excuses. name another occupation on the globe running as long as your apartheid, then try telling me it’s all about the jews we notice. not!

      • Donald
        September 26, 2011, 11:17 pm

        “how convenient! make an ethnic state and then when they commit war crimes pretend we notice because of their ethnicity!”

        So many defenses of Israeli behavior have that “heads I win, tails you lose” quality. It’s monumentally stupid, but that often seems to work in politics, I guess because so many people approach politics with the rational part of their brain turned off.

      • eee
        September 27, 2011, 1:10 am

        Donald,

        Really? Don’t you see in this nothing similar to the famed method of making a list of Jews and blaming the death of Christian children on them? And then of course demanding money from the Jews to be taken off the list? If you want to look serious, at least demand reasonable evidence before putting a person on the list. This list is completely random. It is just Jews that served in the IDF at some time.

      • Cliff
        September 27, 2011, 1:23 am

        Man you are so full of yourself.

        They aren’t listed because they are Jews. They are listed because they are the IDF soldiers responsible for the killing of civilians.

        You are so goddamn narcissistic that you twist this as an attack on Jews? DISGUSTING

      • annie
        September 27, 2011, 1:28 am

        This list is completely random. It is just Jews that served in the IDF at some time.

        wow, why does that sound familiar. let’s look on the bright side 3e. what are the chances a special unit will assassinate a few random jews in the wrong house before apprehending one of the suspects? what are the chances a special unit will kidnap one of their relatives children in the middle of the night and torture him til he confesses his relative was on the mavi marmara or was in fact one of the shooters? what are the chances they will hold that child until one of the suspects offers himself and his confession to save his family? what are the chances his home will be demolished? or, as with the case of the recent eliat attack, what are the chances turkey will declare the verdict prior to any trial and simply bomb their homes and kill them? iow, this isn’t israel we are dealing with here, this is turkey. they are more civilized.

        i’m wondering if it was you on that list and you were brought to trial and you had a choice of an israeli military kangaroo court or the kind of court turkey has in mind which would you choose? would you like charges or a simple administrative detention? what about access to the lawyer? or if perchance your choice was to confess (and be released in a 18 months) vs waiting years for a trial by military court, would you confess?

        just curious.

      • annie
        September 27, 2011, 1:31 am

        and what are the chances the whole town he lives in will be rounded up and arrested and dna taken and hundreds of people questioned for months? and then at the end of the months turkey announces certain boys have confessed? would you believe it? would you? who pumped bullets into innocent brains eee? and who will pay, israeli style?

      • annie
        September 27, 2011, 1:34 am

        of one thing i am quite certain, israel will not be getting a taste of it’s own medicine. you know why i know? because turkey wouldn’t lower itself to that kind of degradation. it’s just a list. go back to bed.

      • eee
        September 27, 2011, 10:40 am

        Annie,

        Of course it is “just” a list. We Jews are used to such lists being put forward by people what have problems with Jews.

        If you want to accuse someone of doing something wrong, don’t you think you need some evidence to do it? If you endorse a list of Jewish “war criminals” don’t you think that you need some evidence that they were even close to the incident at hand? Apparently not. Just publish the list and start cheering about “justice” being served. Not only that, the people who publish the list are also “heroes” according to you. Who do you think you are fooling?

      • Shingo
        September 27, 2011, 7:10 pm

        We Jews are used to such lists being put forward by people what have problems with Jews.

        You Jews hah?

        Yes, you guys love lists.

        link to jpost.com

      • eee
        September 27, 2011, 12:46 am

        Annie,

        When you start salivating over a list that is clearly bogus, what does it say about you?

        link to ynetnews.com

        LLI is right. If the Turks only have to come up with a random list of Jews for you to start celebrations… You would be singing a different tune if some Israelis put out a list of Americans that visited Pakistan and said they were potential terrorists.

      • annie
        September 27, 2011, 1:43 am

        You would be singing a different tune if some Israelis put out a list of Americans that visited Pakistan and said they were potential terrorists.

        lol, what are you talking about eee. israel puts out lists all the time. go look at their jails. you think it is different if it is americans vs palestinians eee? that’s their gig in the land of apartheid. they make the lists and haul in whoever the hell they want. no trial nothing. this is so not israel, it’s turkey.

    • RoHa
      September 27, 2011, 12:38 am

      Here’s a list of Jews.

      link to masada2000.org

      Compiled by your enemies, of course.

      • annie
        September 27, 2011, 12:53 am

        jew counting! throw them to the wolves!

      • eee
        September 27, 2011, 1:11 am

        So the two rights make a wrong argument is the one you support. Good to know. That some idiots made a list, does not in any way shape or from make what you did less wrong.

      • annie
        September 27, 2011, 1:39 am

        So the two rights make a wrong argument is the one you support.

        au contraire. my point being look on the bright side.

      • RoHa
        September 27, 2011, 2:31 am

        I’m not arguing that two wrongs make a right or vice versa.

        I am simply pointing out listing Jews is not always a practice carried out by Gentiles, and therefore not always (contrary to what lli would have us imagine) an expression of anti-Semitism.

      • eee
        September 27, 2011, 10:46 am

        Well, in the Turkish case it is antisemitism because clearly there is no connection between most people on the list and the incident. Why would you put people who were not in the IDF anymore when the incident happened on the list? Why would you put people not from the Israeli Navy on the list? We both know the answer.

      • Chaos4700
        September 27, 2011, 6:49 pm

        And we’re supposed to trust you when you say that? Then tell us who actually was responsible for the attack on the Mavi Marmara. Give us what you believe are the real names.

      • RoHa
        September 27, 2011, 8:37 pm

        ” We both know the answer.”

        I don’t know the answer. If the list includes a lot of wrong names, it could be because the Turkish intelligence isn’t all that good after all.

        Is it always anti-Semitic to suggest that some Jews have committed crimes?

      • Stephen Shenfield
        November 12, 2012, 9:07 pm

        There is no “therefore” — Jews can be anti-Semitic, especially Zionists. The list of SHIT (self-hating israel-threatening) Jews on masada2000 is accompanied by obscene anti-Semitic cartoons that Julius Streicher would have been proud of (or it was the last thing I looked at it).

      • Cliff
        September 27, 2011, 1:28 am

        How dare they count Jews!!!!!

        Eee, where is your outrage!

    • Shingo
      September 27, 2011, 3:50 am

      Is this the first time our enemies have compiled lists of Jews?

      This of it as a hit list of sorts:

      “An IDF hit list of 16 activists to be assassinated “fell from the pocket of an Israeli commando during the boarding of the Mavi Marmara,” Yildirim stated.”

      link to jpost.com

    • Woody Tanaka
      September 27, 2011, 11:16 am

      LMAO. Whenever the likes of LLI and eee start doing the “woe is us, forever victims” routine, you know that someone hit the nail on the head. Good job, Turkey.

  21. crone
    September 26, 2011, 9:43 pm

    Turkey it seems does not gloss over the killing of their citizens in international waters by Israelis.

    Methinks Turkey intends to see this through….

    About time a nation state held Israel accountable for its actions.

  22. dbroncos
    September 26, 2011, 10:03 pm

    While Clinton surely knows she does not have truth on her side, she takes comfort that money surely is.

  23. DBG
    September 26, 2011, 10:16 pm

    How about Turkish war criminals?

    link to english.aljazeera.net

    • Chaos4700
      September 26, 2011, 10:44 pm

      Presumably you want to see military commanders from your own country put up on trial too? US forces killed FAR far more Iraqi civilians than Turkey has.

      • DBG
        September 26, 2011, 11:42 pm

        just pointing out the hypocrisy Chaos, collateral damage is a part of war.

      • Chaos4700
        September 27, 2011, 1:31 am

        If you really believed that, then you’d consider what happened at Itamar (assuming for the sake of argument that those kids that were tortured for a confession actually did the murder) to be “just a part of war.” Do you?

      • Shingo
        September 27, 2011, 3:51 am

        collateral damage is a part of war

        Including the citizens of Sderot right?

      • DBG
        September 27, 2011, 10:10 am

        are you joking Chaos? going into someone’s house and killing a family is never part of war.

      • DBG
        September 27, 2011, 10:10 am

        Shingo, the rockets fired from Gaza are unguided, which is a war crime. I assume Turkey was not using WWII era primitive rockets.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 27, 2011, 11:20 am

        “collateral damage is a part of war”

        “the rockets fired from Gaza are unguided, which is a war crime.”

        How convenient…

      • Chaos4700
        September 27, 2011, 6:49 pm

        So to clarify DBG’s position:

        Killing an Iraqi family in their home: “That’s fine.”
        Killing a Palestinian family in their home: “That’s fine.”
        Killing a Jewish family in their home: “That’s a crime!”

        Remind us again how you’re not motivated by race hatred.

      • Shingo
        September 27, 2011, 7:13 pm

        Shingo, the rockets fired from Gaza are unguided, which is a war crime.

        No DBG. Using rockets wihout guidance systems is not a war crime. Firing them at civlians is – and Israel does that using guidance systems.

        I assume Turkey was not using WWII era primitive rockets.

        I would agree. But there is no such thing as collateral damage. Murder is murder.

  24. dbroncos
    September 26, 2011, 10:30 pm

    …and the crew members of the USS Liberty are still waiting for their day in court. The case of the Liberty raises my hackles more than just about any other episode in the long, sad, sordid history of US-Israel relations. Those sailors, who swore an oath to defend their country, were sold out and knifed in the back by the US gov and the top brass of the Navy. It goes beyond hypocrisy. It’s mendacity and pure wickedness. Echoes of the wickedness at the core of US-Israel relations are still heard today as in the Peace Prize winner’s speech at the UN. ‘Hypocrisy’ isn’t a strong enough word when trying to describe the germ of American -Israeli relations.

    • DBG
      September 26, 2011, 10:51 pm

      oh God, they’ve had their day in court like 5 separate times. Just because you guys don’t get the answers you like, it doesn’t mean you can continue to whine about it for eternity.

      • Chaos4700
        September 26, 2011, 11:11 pm

        Oh yes, keep telling us how US veterans are such “whiners.” Good way to show your patriotism, DBG! (Just not for, you know, the country you were born in.)

      • Charon
        September 27, 2011, 12:08 am

        DBG, they lied in the investigations. They lied because an American public would not respond too nicely were they aware that Israel deliberately attacked an unarmed American ship. How do we know they lied? Because when the dust was settled people came forward and said they lied. The entire crew knows it is a lie. The situation was dealt with secrecy from the start and the crew was threatened.

        Every single official report starts off the US findings the same way. They mentioned that the sky was clear and visibility was perfect, that the name of the ship was in huge English letters, they mention the flag being flown shot down and replaced. That’s all you need to know. There is more but anybody with common sense can stop right there.

        AIPAC’s goons are all over any event that relates to it. Israel has pieces of it as trophies of enemies in a war museum. It’s disgusting the way you pass it off as meaningless. Why did they do it? There were many reasons. The most ‘logical’ was to prevent the Americans from discovering what they were up to in Sinai.

  25. POA
    September 26, 2011, 10:50 pm

    It is a hardship reading through a lengthy thread like this in which eee, DBG, and Hophni contribute so profusely. I find myself repulsed by the cavalier manner in which they can argue false premises, fantasies, and known lies.

    These are people with no scruples, no integrity. They exist to compose falsehoods, obsfucations, and justifications based in fantasy. Its despicable beyond belief.

    • Charon
      September 26, 2011, 11:40 pm

      At least their presence allows the readers to expose their lies. With every bullet point response they repeat and every Zionist rhetoric they pull out of storage it only make themselves looks foolish. Sadly they have no idea, they don’t get it.

      Their tricks might still work on the random blog here and there, especially the fundie and Islamaphobia ones.

    • Chaos4700
      September 27, 2011, 12:17 am

      DGB and hophmi even live in the United States and they take Israel’s side when US citizens are murdered. I think it’s time we start using the word “traitor” — it fits.

      • eee
        September 27, 2011, 1:06 am

        I think “traitor” is the right term for people that keep calling for an uprising of Americans against their system. “Traitor” is the right term for people who believe their own government was responsible for 9/11. “Traitor” is the right term for people who think the US Congress is “bought by Zionists”.

      • annie
        September 27, 2011, 1:13 am

        unless it’s true

      • Chaos4700
        September 27, 2011, 1:32 am

        So Benjamin Franklin, Samuel Adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc. you’re calling them all traitors?

      • DBG
        September 27, 2011, 1:37 am

        ummm they waged an uprising against the British, not the US Chaos. do you guys have history classes up there in Badger country?

      • annie
        September 27, 2011, 1:47 am

        “Traitor” is the right term for people who think the US Congress is “bought by Zionists”.

        HAHAHA

      • RoHa
        September 27, 2011, 2:16 am

        “ummm they waged an uprising against the British, not the US”

        The US didn’t exist when they started. They were rebels against their rightful king, and, as such, traitors to Britain, their country.

        When they declared independence, they created a new country, and were loyal to that country and its people.

        None of this applies to eee’s strange ideas about treason, however. Calling for a change in the country’s system is not disloyalty if the change is intended to be for the benefit of the country. (Otherwise any MP who proposes a change would be a traitor.) An uprising against an oppressive government is not treason to the country, either.

        Believing that the members of the government have deliberately harmed part of the population is not treason.

        Pointing out that member of the government have been suborned and corrupted by a foreign power is not treason. It is an aid to reform of the government for the benefit of the country.

      • Antidote
        September 27, 2011, 3:43 am

        “Traitor” is the right term for people who believe their own government was responsible for 9/11. ”

        The American revolutionaries had all kinds of outlandish conspiracy theories about the British Crown, and the British about them.

        link to jstor.org

      • Elliot
        September 27, 2011, 8:47 am

        I think “traitor” is the right term for people that keep calling for an uprising of Americans against their system.
        eee – is that an absolute rule? What do you think of the Arab Spring…the anti-war protests in the 60s…the French Revolution…the Occupy Wall Street protest?

      • Chaos4700
        September 27, 2011, 9:07 am

        See, this is the real threat people need to perceive. Zionism is incompatible with American loyalty. And DBG proves it. He doesn’t even care about actual history, he just needs talking points fodder to defend Israel!

        What an insult.

      • MHughes976
        September 27, 2011, 9:16 am

        Treason surely is by fairly common consent violent resistance or ‘aid and comfort’ to violent resistance to a legitimate government. If a government has lost (or never had) legitimacy because of injustice and violence of its own then resistance become legitimate and ceases to be treasonous. Locke argued for this in the 1690s.
        Around that time someone wrote the famous verse ‘Treason doth never prosper. What’s the reason? If it do prosper, none dare call it treason’.
        Non-violent civil disobedience would not be treason on this showing.

      • Potsherd2
        September 27, 2011, 9:47 am

        “Traitor” is the right term for the US Congress when it sells out to a foreign power.

      • DBG
        September 27, 2011, 10:12 am

        Chaos, what are you even talking about? do you even know anymore?

      • lysias
        September 27, 2011, 10:27 am

        ummm they waged an uprising against the British, not the US

        You’re ignoring the extent to which the American Revolution was a civil war among Americans. The uprising was as much against the established governments of the colonies as it was against the British.

      • eljay
        September 27, 2011, 10:39 am

        >> … eee’s strange ideas about treason …

        That’s just eee’s “common sense” hard at work. The results are never very good.

      • DBG
        September 27, 2011, 11:08 am

        Right Roha, that is why I didn’t get Chaos’ statement, his analogy made no sense.

      • Chaos4700
        September 27, 2011, 6:47 pm

        Then go take school again, DBG, if your reading comprehension is below sixth grade level. It’s bad enough that we waste so much time on your moral deficiencies, now we’re expected to humor your intellectual deficiencies as well?

  26. HHM
    September 27, 2011, 9:00 am

    I cannot help but wonder if any of these IDF soldiers have duel American citizenship. I recall that on Aug. 16, 104 immigrating 18- to 22-year-old Americans arrived at Ben-Gurion Airport to enlist in the Israel “Defense” Force. Will they, too, attack and shoot non-violent American human rights activists on Israeli command? Or spy on Americans if/when they return?

  27. kursato
    September 28, 2011, 6:08 pm

    Justice will prevail, one way or the other those iDF soldiers are going to pay the price for the killing of those 8 Turkish (and 1 American) activists on the board of the Mavi Marmara

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