Kol Nidre in Cairo. Not

Israel/Palestine
on 212 Comments

At sundown tonight, I walked down the five flights of my hotel and into the streets of central Cairo. The muezzin was calling people to prayer, and I was going to pray– walking the one block from my hotel to the Adly street synagogue, the large gray art-deco building that is at all times barricaded and protected by soldiers, protecting a Jewish structure. I was going to observe Kol Nidre, the evening service of Yom Kippur, in Cairo.

The last time I was in Cairo I visited the Adly synagogue and met three Jews there. A caretaker sold me a book about Jewish life in Cairo, and a brass bookmark. And this trip I planned so that I could have Yom Kippur in Cairo. I brought a suit and a yarmulke I’d gotten in the Great Synagogue in Jerusalem. Today a Cairo friend said that I would see Carmen Weinstein in shul. Her family still owns a printing business in town. You can see their name carved into a facade of a store near here. Weinstein.

But when I got to the synagogue tonight, the soldiers waved me away. The lamps were on outside the synagogue but the soldiers said it was empty, locked. An officer in white uniform was eating his dinner on a table on the sidewalk. Bukra, he kept saying. Tomorrow. I tried to explain to him that right now is the solemnest hour of the Jewish year– when we renounce all vows. Men in dark khaki with rifles stood by watching.

A man who speaks English came up with his prayer mat folded at his side. He said the synagogue will be open tomorrow, 9-3. So I will try again.

Still it is painful to reflect on the end of Mizrahi Jewish existence. In Palestine and Jordan and Egypt, Muslims always say to me, We lived for a thousand years with the Jews without any problem, until Zionism. I guess they are right, but those chapters of coexistence are now over–for whatever reason.  

Yesterday the Egyptians celebrated their October 6 victory over Israel in the Yom Kippur war. You saw children with their faces painted white, black and red. And in Tahrir Square today, I heard Israel condemned over and over in speeches. People carried posters with the Jewish star on them, a symbol of Israel, sometimes with a red circle around it and a line crossing through it. And a man carried a sign covered in Arabic but with a few English words. “I hate Israel, Israel is behind it,” it said.

At one of the grandstands around Tahrir that the various movements use to rally their bases, they had a huge weatherproof sign with a photograph of a boy killed in Gaza during Cast Lead, two years before. I know; these people have their reasons to be angry at Jews.

But I’m not talking about politics. We’re cousins, Muslims like to say to Jews, and Jews like to say back. We’re both sons of Abraham. And now we’re not. There’s utter separation, and mistrust. It’s a great cultural breach. It feels like it will be longlasting. Yes, Jews have returned to Berlin, but how long before the Arab Jews come back to Cairo?

Hope springs eternal; this is the season of revolution, after all. I’ll try the Adly synagogue tomorrow. I’d really like to meet Carmen Weinstein.

212 Responses

  1. Dan Crowther
    October 7, 2011, 2:05 pm

    That’s sad, Phil. On all accounts. Thanks for the post, brother.

    • Shmuel
      October 7, 2011, 3:50 pm

      Yes, a sad post. Thanks for your thoughts, Phil.

      • seafoid
        October 7, 2011, 4:26 pm

        A very sad feeling , the absence of Jewish life in places as far apart as Cairo and Bratislava. All traded in for a defective Sparta. There is an empiness all over Eastern Europe that can never be compensated by Israelis in IDF uniforms on pilgrimages to Auschwitz.

        In turkish there is a very deep melancholy called hüzün but the Yiddish word would have to include a sense of impotent rage at the insanity.

      • Shmuel
        October 7, 2011, 5:00 pm

        I couldn’t find the precise Cairo tradition, but this beautiful Sephardic melody for Kol Nidre is probably similar to the one you might have heard at the Adly Street Synagogue: link to piyut.org.il

    • Mooser
      October 8, 2011, 11:41 am

      Well, Phil, if it starts to get to you, just remember, the guys at the Thoreau Club no longer dare make fun of us!
      Well, you, anyway. They still want nothing to do with me.

  2. seafoid
    October 7, 2011, 2:13 pm

    “We’re cousins, Muslims like to say to Jews, and Jews like to say back. We’re both sons of Abraham. And now we’re not.”

    Cousins don’t do this. The defining image of the relationship between Israel and the neighbours.

    link to magnumphotos.com

    “Everything in our background has prepared us to know and resist a prison when the gates begin to close around us . . . But what if there are no cries of anguish to be heard? Who is prepared to take arms against a sea of amusements? To whom do we complain, and when, and in what tone of voice, when serious discourse dissolves into giggles? What is the antidote to a culture’s being drained by laughter?” ― Neil Postman

    And the Jewish prison is built on fear and paranoia . And there were no cries of anguish as the gates began to close

  3. eee
    October 7, 2011, 2:15 pm

    “We lived for a thousand years with the Jews without any problem, until Zionism. I guess they are right, but those chapters of coexistence are now over–for whatever reason.”

    Definitely debunked by Martin Gilbert:
    link to amazon.com

    • Dan Crowther
      October 7, 2011, 2:47 pm

      Definitely debunked………by a revisionist Zionist.

      eee, try not to cite people who have “proud Zionist” listed in the first paragraph of their Wiki page, homey. it makes you look like an idiot.

      • eee
        October 7, 2011, 3:04 pm

        Martin Gilbert is one of the foremost historians of this era. So what if he is a Zionist? Many people are, you know.
        He is a professor at Oxford and the official biographer of Winston Churchill. Trying to discount his acclaimed book only makes you look like an idiot and an ignoramus.

      • Dan Crowther
        October 7, 2011, 3:29 pm

        eee,

        yea, foremost historian, oxford prof…blah blah blah – who screams ANTI SEMITE whenever its convenient

        link to redress.cc

        link to pulsemedia.org

      • DICKERSON3870
        October 7, 2011, 4:46 pm

        RE: “Martin Gilbert…is a professor at Oxford and the official biographer of Winston Churchill.” ~ triple ‘e’
        MY REPLY: Well, lah–de–effing–dah! Are we supposed to be impressed?
        FROM Inaction as Action: How Churchill Sank
        the Lusitania

        (excerpt)…Christopher Hitchens, who wrote a brilliant book on the history of Anglo-American relations entitled Blood, Class, and Nostalgia talks about is the sinking of the Lusitania, which he solidly proves is the responsibility of the British head of naval intelligence, Sir Winston Churchill.
        Churchill played a strong part in both the sinking of the ship and the controversy that ensued later. That there was such a large cache of arms on the ship (over 1,248 cases of shells) that it sunk after being hit by only one torpedo was not a surprise, nor was it uncommon; there was a sizable number of American citizens who supported the British war effort, supplying arms on almost every cruise ship between the nations. What was a surprise was the lack of protection given to the warship. Churchill had been warned that there were German submarines in the area (which had, in fact, already sunk several other British ships), and failed either to warn the ship or send any escort ships into the area.
        Tempting as it is to simply attribute this to negligence on Churchill’s part (warning the ships was solidly his responsibility), the odds of Churchill failing to do his duty were astronomically low. It would have taken a period of over ten days of negligence, according to Hitchens, for the sinking to occur.
        Churchill, one of the most efficient people in British government, could not reasonably have been so negligent; he could, however, have suppressed the information without effort. Had he wanted intelligence suppressed, the King himself could not have found anything out.
        Churchill didn’t stop there, however. After letting the ship (and most of the civilians on board) go down, he started an insidious publicity campaign and ran the investigation that “discovered” that there had been more than one torpedo, and he was responsible for the spread of a rumor that the Germans had created a Lusitania medal honoring soldiers who killed civilians. These propaganda moves helped shift public opinion in the United States to the British side…

        SOURCE – link to english.emory.edu

      • DICKERSON3870
        October 7, 2011, 4:54 pm

        P.S. FROM Rethinking Churchill, Part 2:

        (excerpt)…Whether Churchill actually arranged for the sinking of the Lusitania on May 7, 1915, is still unclear. A week before the disaster, he wrote to Walter Runciman, President of the Board of Trade that it was “most important to attract neutral shipping to our shores, in the hopes especially of embroiling the United States with Germany.” Many highly-placed persons in Britain and America believed that the German sinking of the Lusitania would bring the United States into the war.
        The most recent student of the subject is Patrick Beesly, whose Room 40 is a history of British Naval Intelligence in World War I. Beesly’s careful account is all the more persuasive for going against the grain of his own sentiments. He points out that the British Admiralty was aware that German U-boat Command had informed U-boat captains at sea of the sailings of the Lusitania, and that the U-boat responsible for the sinking of two ships in recent days was present in the vicinity of Queenstown, off the southern coast of Ireland, in the path the Lusitania was scheduled to take. There is no surviving record of any specific warning to the Lusitania. No destroyer escort was sent to accompany the ship to port, nor were any of the readily available destroyers instructed to hunt for the submarine. In fact, “no effective steps were taken to protect the Lusitania.” Beesly concludes: unless and until fresh information comes to light, I am reluctantly driven to the conclusion that there was a conspiracy deliberately to put the Lusitania at risk in the hope that even an abortive attack on her would bring the United States into the war. Such a conspiracy could not have been put into effect without Winston Churchill’s express permission and approval…

        SOURCE – link to lewrockwell.com

        FROM What Really Caused World War 1?:

        (excerpt)…On May 7, 1915, the Lusitania was sunk off the coast of County Cork, Ireland by a U-boat after it had slowed to await the arrival of the English escort vessel, the Juno, which was intended to escort it into the English port. The First Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill, issued orders that the Juno was to return to port, and the Lusitania sat alone in the channel. Because Churchill knew of the presence of three U-boats in the vicinity, it is reasonable to presume that he had planned for the Lusitania to be sunk, and it was…

        SOURCE – link to threeworldwars.com

      • Charon
        October 7, 2011, 5:02 pm

        No eee, ‘many people’ are not Zionists. 99.9% of the world is not a Zionist. I’m not including the rapturous fundies, they have a different definition of Zionism. There aren’t many of them in the world either.

        He is a Zionist therefore he is biased. That he is an Oxford professor is meaningless. Ruth Wisse is a Harvard Professor and she called the cancelled flotilla the “kill the Jews flotilla” and “Auschwitz Flotilla” which is quite ridiculous for somebody who is supposedly ‘educated’ and teaching at a prestigious school. Doesn’t say much about their standards. Finkelstein argues with and pwns ‘respected’ scholars all the time exposing their bias. I also love with Zionists mentioned someone who won a Nobel prize. Big wow, an award handed out by Zionists. Obummer won one. Doesn’t say much about the Nobel Prize

      • MRW
        October 8, 2011, 12:47 am

        Interesting stuff, Dickerson. David Irving’s book on Churchill, which is chock-a-block with the diary entries, logs, unpublished secret archives, and official government records and secret communiques of the officials involved, shows that Churchill could have avoided WWII. It shows Churchill to be a complete, utter phony. And evil. Pernicious, even. Moreover, a drunk who was so drunk he drove his country into war and caused untold devastation and the death of 100 million globally as a result.

        I had no idea he practiced with WWI.

        (For those who refuse to read Irving because they think he’s an anti-semite, I’m telling you his Churchill book is an historical wonder. Finding a used copy is another story. If you ever see one, buy it.)

      • mig
        October 8, 2011, 3:41 pm

        And how some german army high command officers tried to contact british officials to stand firm in München negotiations. To stop Hitler.

        Peter Ustinov interview, starts about 03:55

    • Chaos4700
      October 7, 2011, 2:48 pm

      Definitely eee touting the Israeli analog to the Muslim-targeting version of an “Elder Protocols of Zion.” I don’t suppose you’d mind if we left history to the historians, instead of IDF vets?

      • eee
        October 7, 2011, 3:08 pm

        Chaos,

        Are you really calling Gilbert’s masterpiece a Muslim-targeting version of an “Elder Protocols of Zion”? Wow, you have really lost it.

      • Chaos4700
        October 7, 2011, 3:56 pm

        You’re the one who can’t seem to decide who Gilbert is and what he wrote.

    • Bill in Maryland
      October 7, 2011, 2:53 pm

      Huh? From the book’s description at the Amazon.com link provided: “Ultimately Gilbert’s moving account of mutual tolerance between Muslims and Jews provides a perspective on current events and a template for the future.”

      • eee
        October 7, 2011, 3:06 pm

        Bill,

        There were certain periods of mutual tolerance but they were swamped by many more periods in which Jews were oppressed. Gilbert thoroughly describes the relations over time and different geographical regions. It was not all bad, but it was certainly far from being all good as Arabs want to describe it.

      • Chaos4700
        October 7, 2011, 3:52 pm

        Then why aren’t all Jews dead, eee? If EVERYONE in the world is out to kill Jews, why aren’t you all dead?

      • eee
        October 7, 2011, 4:26 pm

        Because oppression does not always mean genocide. It sometimes means exile, being treated like shit, being over taxed. It usually means a pogrom every few years with say 10% of the community killed and property burned. So a few million Jews were able to survive. But some communities did disappear completely. The one in Cairo is going in that direction.

      • seafoid
        October 7, 2011, 4:29 pm

        Do you think it was all beer and skittles for christian peasants over 2 millennia, eee ? Most of them only got iphones last year, you know. A sense of perspective would do wonders for your persecution complex.
        And an industrial dose of taqiyya.

      • Ellen
        October 7, 2011, 4:50 pm

        Eee….keep the victimology alive. Cultivate it, nurture it. Wrap yourself up in it like a shroud. A cultural identity of weakness.

        Don’t scream Holocaust as it dishonors all victims of that particular genocide.

        The Arab world does not a tradition of intolerance to Jews. Many Arabs were/are Jews. Remember the Turks under the Ottoman empire patronized the building of Temples and prayer rooms in ottoman Europe after the Christian extremes of the inquisition.

        These facts do not fit the Zionist narrative of eternal victimhood.

      • eee
        October 7, 2011, 5:56 pm

        Ellen,

        Sorry, you are just plain wrong. The Arab world does have a tradition of intolerance to Jews. That is clearly what history shows. Yes, there were times and places of tolerance but overall there was intolerance. Read Gilbert’s excellent book.

        As for what you call “victimology”, I was just answering a question. I do not view myself as a victim and do not plan to be one.

      • Chaos4700
        October 7, 2011, 6:28 pm

        How would you know, eee? How would you know? You’re only taught anti-Arab (and anti-Polish / anti-German, apparently) propaganda in schools. How would you know there is intolerance in the Arab world? How many Arabs have you actually met? You spend your whole life either in Israel or in the United States and increasingly, there is less and less cultural difference (to the point that we’re importing Israeli television as our prism for viewing the Middle East, such as with the new “Homefront” series) You only know what your parents tell you of Arabs — what they tell of the people they stole from, and killed, to carve out a stolen home on their land.

      • mig
        October 7, 2011, 7:47 pm

        eee :

        ” The Arab world does have a tradition of intolerance to Jews.”

        ++++ History tells other story.

        “That is clearly what history shows.”

        ++++ You dont know history. After Spain kicked jews out, they mostly moved to arab states. And then….?

        “Yes, there were times and places of tolerance but overall there was intolerance.”

        ++++ Scholar links. Hasbara links dont count.

      • crone
        October 7, 2011, 8:34 pm

        3e…

        do you read your posts? You really should read them, in an objective manner… then you would see the portrait of yourself we see… just as Ellen describes.

        Question: why don’t you comment on Phil’s lovely, sad, post? It speaks to co-existence. Why must you turn every thread to your view of the past as a necessary view of the future… if you really wanted to peacefully co-exist with your Arab neighbors, you could. “Let peace begin with me” is a wonderful mantra.

      • American
        October 7, 2011, 11:33 pm

        “I do not view myself as a victim and do not plan to be one.”

        You are already a victim eee……a perfect specimen of the victim hood cult. You see yourself as the innocent victim rising from the ashes to be some almighty avenging Phoenix of Jews against the World.
        That is such a damn losing battle it continues to astound me that you don’t get it.

      • POA
        October 7, 2011, 11:37 pm

        “The one in Cairo is going in that direction”

        Gee, eee, how can it be?

        Jewish communities dwindling, becoming forced out?

        Now theres a reason for a good zionist to pout!

        Oh no, say it isn’t so!

        Who has dealt the Jews this powerful blow?

        (Read your own archived comments, eee. In there, you will find the answer to the riddle. When will you finally figure out that you are an enemy of the Jews, that you nurture anti-semitism with your disingenuous spew, your despicable rationalizations and justifications, and your unwielding inability to formulate a moral or honest argument?)

    • Les
      October 7, 2011, 6:50 pm

      Just because he has tenure and has published, doesn’t mean he has the respect of professional historians or of history students. I suspect Gilbert’s support for Zionism fits in with the very commonplace views in his other history writing. If you know of any groundbreaking theories or interpretations Gilbert has ever had, you know more than any historian.

    • Dex
      October 8, 2011, 12:50 pm

      Martin Gilbert?….Martin Gilbert?….you are kidding, right?

      That guy is only reputable in the circles of Zionist historiography; nowhere else.

  4. Chaos4700
    October 7, 2011, 2:19 pm

    But I’m not talking about politics.

    Unfortunately, you are. Thanks to Zionism, you can’t talk about Judaism and not talk about politics. You can’t put the Star of David in a synagogue and not realize that it’s also on the Israeli flag, and emblazoned on the shoulders of Israeli soldiers and etched into Israeli tanks and armored bulldozers.

    And then you have people like eee and Witty who corrupt it even further, alternatively renouncing Judaism as a religion, or conflating the religion with nationalism.

    I’m sorry, Phil Weiss, but it’s not that co-religion between Islam and Judaism ceased to exist… it’s that Judaism is ceasing to be a religion. Egyptians — Muslim, Christian and Jewish — still remember the Lavon affair and what it meant for all Egyptians.

    • DBG
      October 7, 2011, 2:51 pm

      As a Jew Chaos, I can assure you that you don’t have a clue what you are talking about. Saying Judaism is ceasing to exist as a religion is absolutely false and offensive. As someone who is in contact with Muslims on a regular basis, I can assure you that the co-religion is alive and well in my community and in others throughout the world.

      As for the Lavon affair being the reason Egyptians hate Israel, you are a moron. Don’t you think their defeats in ’56, ’67, and ’73 would be a little more influential than some 1/2 baked bombing campaign which claimed zero lives?

      Jews of Egypt remember the Cairo pogrom and their being booted from Egypt much better than they remember the Lavon Affair.

      • Elliot
        October 7, 2011, 3:08 pm

        Jews of Egypt remember the Cairo pogrom and their being booted from Egypt much better than they remember the Lavon Affair.
        Of course, they do. The same is true of the Jews who fled the inner cities in the US in the 60s. They remember Black anger and violence. They do not remember the White riots against Blacks. They do not remember – because they had no knowledge of – the Jewish profiteers who colluded with the WASP banking elite in trashing middle class neighborhoods to line their own pockets.
        Why should innocent Egyptian Jews know about the Israeli plot that soured relations with their Muslim neighbors?

      • Chaos4700
        October 7, 2011, 3:13 pm

        As long as the Star of David appears on the side of bombs dropped by a recognized state actor as well as on the side of synagogues, DBG, Judaism will continue to find itself drifting away from spirituality and drifting toward cultish, nationalistic fanaticism.

        I love how you’re so quick to write off what was basically the Jewish/Israeli equivalent of al-Qaeda. The fact is, Israel used synagogues in Egypt as a staging ground for a campaign of terror. If you want to blame anyone for turning Judaism into a venue for terrorism, BLAME ZIONISTS. There would have been no bombings at all, and thus no threat to Egyptian national security of a uniquely Jewish character, and thus no pogrom, if Israel didn’t use synagogues in another country as a warehouse for explosives.

      • eee
        October 7, 2011, 3:31 pm

        Chaos,

        You are making a fool of yourself. The Cairo pogrom happened in 1945, 9 full years before the Lavon affair and BEFORE Israel was founded. So, do you have another reason for the Cairo pogrom? What exactly did the Cairo Jews do wrong to deserve it?

      • DICKERSON3870
        October 7, 2011, 3:42 pm

        RE: “As long as the Star of David appears on the side of bombs dropped by a recognized state actor as well as on the side of synagogues, DBG, Judaism will continue to find itself drifting away from spirituality and drifting toward cultish, nationalistic fanaticism.” ~ Chaos4700

        A TRIP DOWN MEMORY LANE: An explosive image in Lebanon conflict, guardian.com, 07/20/06

        (excerpt) This photograph of Israeli children writing on artillery shells bound for targets in Lebanon has caused outrage among many bloggers, not least those from the Arab world.
        The debate about the image has, of course, become part of the propaganda war that is running alongside the conflict.
        “From the children of Israel, to the children of Lebanon, with love,” writes one Greek blogger, Mavrosgatos, showing the image above a very graphic photograph apparently showing the scorched corpse of a Lebanese child. “These [Israeli] children are raised with hatred instead of milk,” the blogger writes…

        LINK – link to guardian.co.uk

      • eee
        October 7, 2011, 3:55 pm

        Let’s put things in perspective:
        link to ontheface.blogware.com

      • DICKERSON3870
        October 7, 2011, 3:58 pm

        RE: FROM ABOVE – “These [Israeli] children are raised with hatred instead of milk,” the blogger writes…

        SEE THIS DOCUMENTARY: Defamation (2009), by Yoav Shamir, 91 minutes
        FROM A FILM REVIEW BY GILAD ATZMAN:

        (excepts) I urge every person on this planet to watch Yoav Shamir’s Defamation, a documentary about anti-Semitism…
        …He provides us with some intimate footage of Israeli youth being indoctrinated into collective anxiety and total neurosis just before they join the IDF.
        The general image we are left with is no less than grotesque. The film elaborates on the aggressive vulgar orchestrated amplification of fear amongst Israelis and Zionist Jews. “We are raised to believe that we are hated” says an Israeli high school girl on her way to a concentration camp…
        …Shamir provides us with an opportunity to see how badly young Israelis behave once in Poland. You watch their contempt to the local population and disrespect to Polish people and institutes. You can also watch Israelis project their hatred onto others. For some reason they are convinced that everyone out there is as merciless as they happen to be. The Israeli youngsters are saturated with fear, yet, they are having a good time, you can watch them having a party dancing in a bus all the way to a Auschwitz…

        ENTIRE FILM REVIEW – link to gilad.co.uk
        “Defamation” can be streamed from Netflix – link to movies.netflix.com
        “Defamation” on YouTube (in 9 parts) – link to youtube.com

      • Charon
        October 7, 2011, 5:13 pm

        eee, that doesn’t put things into any sort of rational perspective. It just further confirms that Zionists are delusional and paranoid.

        Israel bombed civilian neighborhoods in Lebanon. Israel bombed the heck out of Beirut in the very early 80s. They didn’t distinguish civilian from ‘terrorist’ and used the same technique that Begin was famous for – terrorism. There were rooms of mutilated children’s body parts compliments of the most moral army on Earth. If I grew up with that very real terrorism, I’d be firing rockets at Israel too when I got older.

      • eee
        October 7, 2011, 5:58 pm

        Of course you would be firing rockets at Israel, just as Israelis fire rockets at Berlin and Vietnamese fire rockets at New York. I perfectly understand you.

      • Chaos4700
        October 7, 2011, 6:31 pm

        We’re not interested in your excuse for teaching your children to hate Arabs, any more than we’re interested in your excuses for bombing Arabs, eee. Lebanon has been bombed and invaded and occupied by you on and off for basically the entirety of Israel’s existence. YOU ARE A MORTAL THREAT TO THE LEBANESE, eee.

        And thanks to you being hateful parents, so will your children.

      • tree
        October 7, 2011, 6:43 pm

        Let’s put things in perspective

        OK, so the “perspective” is that the IDF entered the town with lethal weapons and set up shop there. Does that qualify as “cowardly blending” or using “human shields”? Or is that another action that is condemned when others do it but applauded when Israeli “militants” (IDF) do the same thing? [ Kfar Giladi was a perfect example of this. Twelve IDF soldiers killed - the largest single IDF casualty incident in the war - but it was described as an attack on a civilian kibbutz. ]

        And then to top it off they allowed children…CHILDREN… to come in contact with large and lethal tank shells, and encouraged them to write things on them. But of course, that’s all OK because the children were scared and unable to leave their bunkers except to go visit with IDF soldiers and write nasty things on lethal tank shells. Totally understandable….NOT. You are so steeped in your country’s propaganda that you can’t see straight. That “perspective” is far from rational.

      • Antidote
        October 7, 2011, 10:21 pm

        “The Israeli youngsters are saturated with fear, yet, they are having a good time, you can watch them having a party dancing in a bus all the way to a Auschwitz…”

        And how weird is this?

        “During a class last year, one student set off a cellphone ringtone that sounded like a siren. As a result, the class was cut short and the students went to the sealed room. Immediately afterward, they learned that they would be punished collectively and would not be allowed to travel with their friends on the trip to Poland the next year.

        “It creates a situation in which they turn the trip into a privilege instead of a moral obligation,” said one student. “It is something that is important to do and not something to be toyed with and used as prize or extra bonus. It’s not an annual class outing.”

        His friend added: “I’m eating myself up from inside. And what for? Because of some silly prank from last year? We’re kids; we do silly things.”

        A girl from another 12th grade class who will leave tonight for Poland said: “They could easily have found out who did this and could have punished just him and not the entire class… The school has a kind of mentality where the perpetual threat is they won’t travel to Poland: ‘If you cut class, you won’t go to Poland,’ ‘If they catch you smoking, you won’t go to Poland.'”

        Another 12th-grader related: “I myself decided not to go to Gadna (Youth Corps pre-army training program ) because I don’t support the idea behind it, that military education can take place in the school. They immediately threatened me that I wouldn’t get to go to Poland and only in the wake of a letter I wrote did they eventually allow me to go.”

        “I just think the principle of punishing this way is simply shocking,” said a mother of a 12th-grade student who is going on the trip. “The mere fact that the Poland trip has become a means of deterrence and for every problem this threat is pulled out.”

        “A prank is something that must be dealt with, but punishing an entire class in this way is sending an educational message that Poland is a punishment or a prize. This is, after all, an educational endeavor on the part of the Ministry of Education; it’s really a delusional idea. It’s like saying, ‘You won’t learn history.’ We parents spoke among ourselves; maybe it was convenient for them to drop one class, because they have too many students, otherwise it’s impossible to understand such a future punishment for the year to come.

        “They’ll probably say now that it’s a class of ‘troublemakers’ and it makes life much easier to label students.”

        The Ministry of Education’s Tel Aviv District office stated: “In cases where principals decide not to take students on the trip, the ministry relies on their judgment, since a student’s behavior is a key consideration when selecting participants to join the trip. It should be noted that the school did not punish the entire class, as it was decided to allow two students from the class to be part of the delegation.”

        A statement from the municipality on behalf of the school said: “The Alon High School implements the recommendations of the committee to evaluate the behavior of the youth delegations to Poland and follows the director-general’s bulletin with regard to selecting the participants. Instead of the trip to Poland, these students will take part in a unique program and travel in Israel as part of an educational program focusing on the inter-generational effort to get to the land of Israel and Jerusalem, while learning about the period of the Holocaust.”

        link to haaretz.com

      • Hostage
        October 8, 2011, 4:46 am

        Let’s put things in perspective: link to ontheface.blogware.com

        Wow what a coincidence. Hezbollah targeted the permanent IDF camp located in Kiryat Shemona where the tanks and howitzers were based. Western journalists and IDF censors did a lousy job of concealing its location, e.g. See Girl on a tank: IDF campsite in Kiryat Shemona link to ynetnews.com

        The kids in these photos were not trying to escape the missiles crashing and booming on their town day and night. Their adult guardians had deliberately taken them to the middle of a valid military target during a war. The artillery hadn’t just arrived that day either. The Western journalists were camped-out in Kiryat Shemona and had been showing the howitzers pounding positions in Lebanon for days. BTW, how is locating a military camp in Kiryat Shemona and deploying forces there during a war any different from the alleged practice of Hamas and Hezbollah of exploiting civilians as human shields?

        It’s small wonder then that Hezbollah attacked the town. Or that a war would terrify all of the children that live in a military staging area with a munitions depot and enemy assets like main battle tanks and howitzers.

      • RoHa
        October 9, 2011, 10:33 pm

        “Saying Judaism is ceasing to exist as a religion is absolutely false and offensive.”

        It may be false, but why is it offensive?

      • annie
        October 9, 2011, 10:41 pm

        roha, what do you mean? of course it would be offensive to say someone’s religion was becoming extinct.

      • Chaos4700
        October 9, 2011, 10:44 pm

        I couldn’t care less about being offensive. What’s more important is if it’s true.

      • RoHa
        October 10, 2011, 12:53 am

        “of course it would be offensive to say someone’s religion was becoming extinct.”

        Sorry, I don’t see the offense. How does it offend?

      • annie
        October 10, 2011, 1:02 am

        telling someone their belief system is becoming extinct is challenging their reality. besides, evidence suggests none of the three main religions are anywhere near the point of extinction.

      • RoHa
        October 10, 2011, 1:39 am

        “telling someone their belief system is becoming extinct is challenging their reality.”

        Does “challenging their reality” mean (a) telling them that they are not real or (b) telling them that their beliefs about reality are false?

        Using meaning a:

        Saying “RoHa is not a real person, but just a computer programme set up by eljay” could be offensive.
        (Though I probably wouldn’t be offended by it. I’m not very good at taking offense.)

        But saying “RoHa’s belief system is becoming extinct” does not imply that I am unreal.

        Using meaning b:

        Saying “RoHa’s belief system is becoming extinct” does not imply “RoHa’s belief system is false”. It just implies that fewer and fewer people share my brilliant insight into the nature of Life, the Universe, and Everything. And that is their problem, not mine.

        (And supposing – per impossible – that my belief system were false, it would be foolish of me to take offense at being informed of the fact.)

        So I still don’t understand how it is offensive.

        “besides, evidence suggests none of the three main religions are anywhere near the point of extinction”

        Four of the five main religions still seem pretty strong. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism are well supplied with adherents. It is hard to tell about the fifth (Chinese folk religion) but I suspect it is in better condition than is officially admitted. Sikhism is fairly healthy, too. I think the Parsees are fading a bit.

      • annie
        October 9, 2011, 10:40 pm

        As for the Lavon affair being the reason Egyptians hate Israel, you are a moron. Don’t you think their defeats in ’56, ’67, and ’73 would be a little more influential than some 1/2 baked bombing campaign which claimed zero lives?

        why yes it would. in fact i posit all of them (’56, ’67, and ’73 ) would be more influential. i merely stated above the expulsions happened after the lavon affair (54 as i recall). it was you who posited the expulsions were merely as a result of an ‘excuse’ resulting from israel’s founding..or something. what hogwash.

      • DBG
        October 9, 2011, 10:42 pm

        i merely stated above the expulsions happened after the lavon affair (54 as i recall)

        Annie, you should really brush up on your history then.

        Also is this something you support? should the US have kicked out all Arabs after 9/11? or do you just promote the ethnic cleansing of Jews?

      • Chaos4700
        October 9, 2011, 10:43 pm

        Also, you know, quelle surprise that Egyptians hate the same “Jewish nation” that engaged in territorial expansionism through military force and bought off their government. What was one of the few governments voicing support for Mubarak right through to the end of his reign?

      • DBG
        October 9, 2011, 10:55 pm

        territorial expansionism in Egypt Chaos? do tell.

      • Hostage
        October 10, 2011, 6:02 am

        Annie, you should really brush up on your history then.

        Maybe you should too. The Zionists have always relied upon antisemitism to drive aliyah to Israel. The State and the Jewish Agency have always published blatant propaganda and educational materials that deliberately portray Jewish civilians in Arab countries as both victims of antisemitism and a fifth column of spies, e.g. bragging about the way Eli Cohen sent intelligence to Israel about the Syrian fortifications on the Golan Heights that helped Israel during the 1967 War.

        The Lavon Affair had a similar purpose with respect to targeting the Suez Canal zone. This coded cable was sent to the Israeli spy ring which had been planted in Egypt many months before it was activated in July 1954:

        ONE: Start immediate action to prevent or postpone Anglo-Egyptian Agreement. Objectives are: one, cultural and information centers; two, economic institutions; three, cars of British representatives and other Britons; four, whichever target whose sabotage could bring about a worsening of diplomatic relations. TWO. Inform us on possibilities of action in Canal Zone. THREE. Listen to us every day at 7 o’clock on wavelength G.

        link to chss.montclair.edu

        The Panama Canal Treaty contained a clause identical to the one in the Suez Canal Treaty. Nonetheless, the United States closed it to enemy civilian and military vessels throughout WWII. For example, the National Archives relates:

        ships flying Axis colors in territorial waters were also seized and their crews detained. The Italian passenger liner Il Conte Biancamano, for example, was homeward bound from Valparaiso on a scheduled Latin America route when it found itself trapped in the Panama Canal Zone at the outbreak of war in Europe. The U.S. neutrality patrol impounded the ship and confined its crew on board for the next eighteen months before finally transferring the seamen to Ellis Island in early 1941. The Italians joined a large group of German seamen, including the Columbus crew, as well as a group of Italian Pavilion employees from the 1939 New York World’s Fair. In all, nearly 1,700 Axis noncombatants faced an uncertain future on Ellis Island in a country not yet at war.

        link to archives.gov

        During the same era the US interned thousands of Japanese-Americans due to the fear that they posed a fifth-column threat to the defense of the West Coast. The US government refused to apologize or compensate them for many decades.

        should the US have kicked out all Arabs after 9/11?

        Don’t be silly. That’s exactly what the US did. It rounded-up and detained thousands of Asian aliens and deported them after 9/11. Then it began performing well-publicized surveillance and sting operations on the resident aliens. It was even reported that it cooperated with the Iranian government in interrogating refugees. It was rumored at the time that was a quid pro quo for support from the Iranian-backed Northern Alliance in Afghanistan.
        link to metroactive.com

      • Hostage
        October 10, 2011, 6:51 am

        territorial expansionism in Egypt Chaos? do tell.

        Sure here is Livia Rokach’s summary of a few of the disclosures contained in PM Moshe Sherett’s Diary:

        “In providing documentation on the above points, Sharett’s Diary deals a deadly blow to a number of important interpretations which are still being presented as historical truths. Among these are the following items:

        1. To this date the majority of scholars and analysts cite the nationalization of the Suez Canal as the chief motivation for the October 1956 war, It is thereby implied that the projected British and French aggression against Egypt provided Israel with an opportunity to achieve the termination of fedayeen attacks from across the armistice lines, and to settle its accounts with Nasser’s regime, to which these attacks were attributed.

        What Sharett tells us now is that a major war against Egypt aimed at the territorial conquest of Gaza and the Sinai was on the Israeli leadership’s agenda at least as early as the autumn of 1953, almost a year before Nasser ousted Neguib and consolidated his leadership. It was agreed then that the international conditions for such a war would mature within a period of about three years. The Israeli military attack on Gaza in February 1955 was consciously undertaken as a preliminary act of war. A couple of months later a government decision to commence a war to conquer the Gaza Strip met with the strenuous opposition of the foreign minister, whose political liquidation was thereupon decided by the supporters of the war policy, headed by Ben Gurion. Had the prospect of the tripartite aggression not appeared on the horizon in later months, Israel would have gone on to attack Egypt according to its own plans, and, moreover, with U.S. consent.

        2. The occupation by Israel of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 has been described, and is still widely understood today, as an Israeli defensive action in the face of Arab threats. Sharett’s Diary offers unequivocable evidence that the occupation of Gaza and also of the West Bank was part of lsrael’s plans since the early fifties. American Zionist leaders were informed about these plans in 1954, In 1955, Jewish and Arab lives were sacrificed in a series of provocative attacks undertaken to create a pretext for the occupation of Jordanian territory. The chief obstacle postponing this occupation was Britain’s residual presence in Jordan upholding the Hashemite throne.”

        link to chss.montclair.edu

    • pabelmont
      October 7, 2011, 2:59 pm

      Until there is a huge anti-Israeli noise from Jews, identifying themselves prominently as Jews, they will be seen by everyone (from Obama to Tahrir) as pro-Israeli. How can it be otherwise?

      It doesn’t matter if the USA’s Jews identify with Israel from “family”, from fear, from a need for a religion (and all other religion than love-Israel drained away) — it matters only that there must be but is not significant dissent among Jews. where’s the Jewish Warren Buffett telling people to abandon Israel? And if not now, then when?

      • eee
        October 7, 2011, 3:11 pm

        Pabelmont,

        Asking Jews to abandon Israel is asking Jews to abandon the 6 million Jews living in Israel. Do you really think that can happen? Jews in the diaspora identify with Israel because that is the largest or second largest community of Jews in the world. Don’t you get it?

      • yourstruly
        October 7, 2011, 3:38 pm

        not all jews identify with israel. and yes, there’s a growing jewish anti-israel movement. not only here on mw. not as prominent yet as the pro-zionists, because it’s made up mostly of jewish youth & they don’t have the wealth & connections of the older generations. they have the numbers though, and the spirit. together with those of us a bit older & then some, they’re gonna be part of the movement that liberates palestine. what’ll happen to the six million jews in the former israel? many will stay, the rest will use their second passport & go elsewhere. those that stay, however, will have to accept being no more than one among equals.

      • eee
        October 7, 2011, 4:04 pm

        YT,

        Are you talking about the “army of the dead” from the Lords of the Ring trilogy? Because the “numbers” you talk about are just not there. The Hillels and other Zionists organizations are much, much, much larger than any non-Zionist or anti_Zionist Jewish organizations on the campuses of the US.

        You know why? Because part of being Jewish means not forsaking or wanting to harm one of the largest, if not the largest, Jewish communities in the world. And it sure as hell means listening to them and respecting their democratic decisions. You want to tear the Jewish community apart. Good luck with that.

      • Chaos4700
        October 7, 2011, 6:32 pm

        Your mistake is you equate wealth with popularity, eee.

      • shawket
        October 7, 2011, 7:01 pm

        Why can’t you Zionists differentiate between abandoning Israel and abandoning Judaism? The existence of the 6 million Jews within Greater Palestine is not predicated on the State of Israel in its current form. Whenever someone calls for the fall of Israel (or as above, for Jews to abandon Israel) all these Zionists come crying racism saying they’re calling for the abandonment of the Jews within Israel. Israel as it is today will fall, there’s no denying it. The Jews are there to stay, as they should be. So stop conflating ideas to support your racist ideologies and accept the fact that this failed experiment called Zionism is soon to be over.

      • VR
        October 7, 2011, 7:28 pm

        “Because part of being Jewish means not forsaking or wanting to harm one of the largest, if not the largest, Jewish communities in the world.”

        There used to be a time when being Jewish meant doing Jewish, and doing Jewish never meant committing the atrocities that are common practice in Israel. The greatest harm to Judaism in the world is perpetrated by those who say they are protecting the community by supporting without proper judgement in regard to what is right and what is wrong. When the atrocities do not cease to further protect it by proclaiming Jewish community is even worse (it is antisemitic), it becomes like aiding and abetting thieving homicidal criminals – whether it sports a flag and a state charter or not, I’m sure we can name a number of different criminal acts which other “states” were and are involved in.

        eee, you have forsaken the Jewish community by indiscriminate cover up for daily atrocities, never mind forsaking the community because you indiscriminately support whatever it does (by omission and commission) that is just the beginning. It not only speaks of your despising the community, but the rest of mankind – unless you think Israeli activity towards its neighbors and indigenous is something to be emulated in the world at large (I do not need a lecture about others having done the same thing, I think my record for exposing what others have done is clear – unfortunately it is not as clear with others).

    • Mooser
      October 8, 2011, 11:45 am

      “You can’t put the Star of David in a synagogue and not realize that it’s also on the Israeli flag, and emblazoned on the shoulders of Israeli soldiers and etched into Israeli tanks and armored bulldozers.”

      Bingo! You have rung the bell.

      • Citizen
        October 8, 2011, 5:45 pm

        Here, let me ring it again:
        Jews banish their own on Yom Kippur because the banished think Palestinians are human: muzzlewatch.com/2011/10/07/get…
        link to muzzlewatch.com

  5. DICKERSON3870
    October 7, 2011, 2:25 pm

    RE: “In Palestine and Jordan and Egypt, Muslims always say to me, We lived for a thousand years with the Jews without any problem, until Zionism. I guess they are right, but those chapters of coexistence are now over–for whatever reason.” ~ Weiss

    HERE’S ONE REASON: The CIA and The Muslim Brotherhood: How the CIA Set The Stage for September 11 (Martin A. Lee – Razor Magazine 2004)

    (excerpt) The CIA often works in mysterious ways – and so it was with this little-known cloak-and-dagger caper that set the stage for extensive collaboration between US intelligence and Islamic extremists. The genesis of this ill-starred alliance dates back to Egypt in the mid-1950s, when the CIA made discrete overtures to the Muslim Brotherhood, the influential Sunni fundamentalist movement that fostered Islamic militancy throughout the Middle East. What started as a quiet American flirtation with political Islam became a Cold War love affair on the sly – an affair that would turn out disastrously for the United States. Nearly all of today’s radical Islamic groups, including al-Qaeda, trace their lineage to the Brotherhood.
    “The Muslim Brothers are at the root of a lot of our troubles,” says Col. W. Patrick Lang, one of several US intelligence veterans interviewed for this article . Formerly a high-ranking Middle East expert at the Defense Intelligence Agency Lang considers al-Qaeda to be “a descendent of the Brotherhood.
    For many years, the American espionage establishment had operated on the assumption that Islam was inherently anti-communist and there fore could be harnessed to facilitate US objectives. American officials viewed the Muslim Brotherhood as “a secret weapon” in the shadow war against the Soviet Union and it’s Arab allies, according to Robert Baer, a retired CIA case officer who was right in the thick of things in the Middle East and Central Asia during his 21 year career as a spy. In Sleeping with the Devil, a book he wrote after quitting the CIA Baer explains how the United States “made common cause with the Brothers” and used them “to do our dirty work in Yemen, Afghanistan and plenty of other places”. This covert relationship; unraveled when the Cold War ended, whereupon an Islamic Frankenstein named Osama bin Laden lurched into existence…

    SOURCE – link to ce399fascism.wordpress.com

    • DICKERSON3870
      October 7, 2011, 2:41 pm

      P.S. HERE ARE TWO MORE REASONS:

      FROM WIKIPEDIA:

      (excerpt) The Lavon Affair refers to a failed Israeli covert operation, code named Operation Susannah, conducted in Egypt in the Summer of 1954. The Lavon Affair refers to a failed Israeli covert operation, code named Operation Susannah, conducted in Egypt in the Summer of 1954. As part of the false flag operation,[1] a group of Egyptian Jews were recruited by Israeli military intelligence for plans to plant bombs inside Egyptian, American and British-owned targets. The attacks were to be blamed on the Muslim Brotherhood, Egyptian Communists, “unspecified malcontents” or “local nationalists” with the aim of creating a climate of sufficient violence and instability to induce the British government to retain its occupying troops in Egypt’s Suez Canal zone.[2] The operation caused no casualties, except for those members of the cell who committed suicide after being captured.
      The operation became known as the Lavon Affair after the Israeli defense minister Pinhas Lavon, who was forced to resign because of the incident, or euphemistically as the Unfortunate Affair or The Bad Business (Hebrew: העסק ביש‎, HaEsek Bish or העסק הביש, HaEsek HaBish). After being denied for 51 years, the surviving agents were in 2005 officially honored with a certificate of appreciation by the Israeli President Moshe Katzav.[3]…

      SOURCE – link to en.wikipedia.org

      FROM WIKIPEDIA:

      (excerpt) The Suez Crisis, also referred to as the Tripartite Aggression, Suez War,[7][8] (Arabic: أزمة السويس – العدوان الثلاثي‎ ʾAzmat al-Sūwais / al-ʿIdwān al-Thalāthī; French: Crise du canal de Suez; Hebrew: מבצע קדש‎ Mivtza’ Kadesh “Operation Kadesh,” or מלחמת סיני Milẖemet Sinai, “Sinai War”) was an offensive war fought by France, the United Kingdom, and Israel against Egypt beginning on 29 October 1956.[9][10] Less than a day after Israel invaded Egypt, Britain and France issued a joint ultimatum to Egypt and Israel, and then began to bomb Cairo. In a short time, and despite Israeli and British denials, considerable evidence showed that the two attacks were planned in collusion, with France as the instigator, Britain as a belated partner, and Israel as the willing trigger.[11] Anglo-French forces withdrew before the end of the year, but Israeli forces remained until March 1957, prolonging the crisis. In April, the canal was fully reopened to shipping, but other repercussions continued….

      SOURCE – link to en.wikipedia.org

      • Bumblebye
        October 7, 2011, 4:11 pm

        Re the Suez Crisis. A former colleague’s sister was murdered during that one, walking home from school. The family had lived there a few years due to their fathers job.

    • Charon
      October 7, 2011, 5:18 pm

      I don’t know much about the Muslim Brotherhood, but the ‘Brotherhood’ part of their name makes it sound like a fraternal organization. The earliest brotherhood secret societies originated in Egypt even.

  6. annie
    October 7, 2011, 3:02 pm

    how sad.

    • eee
      October 7, 2011, 3:41 pm

      Don’t worry, I am sure enough liberal Egyptians will quickly organize to make sure that Jews have freedom to practice in Cairo. If not, I am sure you will go there to organize such a demonstration.

      • Sumud
        October 7, 2011, 4:16 pm

        Don’t worry, I am sure enough liberal Egyptians will quickly organize to make sure that Jews have freedom to practice in Cairo.

        Note carefully eee, that the Egyptian soldiers are preventing anyone from entering the synagogue tonight.

        If only the IDF were capably of the same thing we would not be hearing of yet another mosque burning in Palestine.

        You call the killing of 10 jews in Cairo in 1945 a pogrom – OK – then you’ll concur that the zionist program has been a 60+ year pogrom across Palestine, right?

      • eee
        October 7, 2011, 4:33 pm

        What do you call executing 10 random Cairo Jews? A lynching? A picnic?
        Was there an armed insurrection by the Cairo Jews? Were they even armed? Of course not.
        What happened in mandatory Palestine was a civil war.

        What the Egyptian police or army should be doing is letting the Jews in to pray and keeping the troublemakers out. Why should I be happy that they are not allowing anyone in? Would you be happy if access to the temple mount was denied everybody, both Muslims and Jews? Do you think Muslims would not complain in this case?

      • Charon
        October 7, 2011, 5:55 pm

        What happened in Palestine during British occupation was not a civil war. It was terrorism. The Zionist terrorists even plotted to kill Churchill. Double standards, Zionists whine about somebody in Hezbollah who killed Israelis being celebrated in Lebanon. The same Zionists who celebrate the terrorist groups who blew up the King David Hotel among many other vile acts.

        As for your ‘pogrom’ there is not a single reliably source that event ever happened. Even the wikipedia article is brief and reads like propaganda. The sources linked are amateur. There is no evidence that this ever happened.

      • mig
        October 7, 2011, 6:05 pm

        eee :

        “What happened in mandatory Palestine was a civil war.”

        ++++ Not quite so.

      • eee
        October 7, 2011, 6:06 pm

        Charon,

        You are a liar. There is an excellent source documenting the Cairo pogrom:
        link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org

        This is living history. The facts were taken from people there. What do you think, some Egyptian documented it?

        What happened in Palestine was clearly a civil war and is noted as such by historians:
        link to en.wikipedia.org

      • braciole
        October 7, 2011, 7:34 pm

        Charon – it’s far more interesting than that. While the revisionist Zionists of the Irgun did resort to terrorism against the British, the mainstream Zionists of the Hagannah co-operated with the British in supressing the Arab Revolt in Palestine between 1936 and 1939. As a result of the suppression of the Arab Revolt most of the Palestinians weapons were removed and their political leadership was destroyed, thus critically weakening them before their confrontation with the Zionists in 1947/8.
        So, eee, by 1937 it was clearly understood by the Arab nationalists that the Zionists were on the side of the British colonialist occupiers, which might explain why Egyptians were attacking Jews in Cairo in 1945.

      • Chaos4700
        October 7, 2011, 9:58 pm

        Jewish Virtual Library? Oh right, run by the guy who worked for one of the Bush Administrations. Yeah, that is just oozing credibility.

        These pogroms happened near 1948, did they not? After your grandparents started razing villages and shooting people who tried to return to the land you stole? They happened after Jewish Zionists announced their intent to the rest of the world to take lands from Arab natives? Are you going to argue those fears were unjustified, eee, that your people intended to pillage your way across the Middle East to carve out a pseudo-Hebrew empire?

      • lyn117
        October 7, 2011, 11:44 pm

        This is from your jewishvirtuallibrary link:

        “On July 29, 1947, an amendment was introduced to the Egyptian Companies Law which made it mandatory for at least 75% of the administrative employees of a company to be Egyptian nationals and 90% of employees in general. This decree resulted in the loss of livelihood for many Jews. ”

        It seems to me that if so many Jews in Egypt were foreign nationals, the cause of any riots in which Jews were killed must have been more the anti-colonial fervor than anti-Jewish fervor. In fact the jewishvirtuallibrary site hints as much. Most non-zionists sources I’ve been able find in a quick web search describe the riots as anti-British.

      • Sumud
        October 8, 2011, 2:00 am

        What do you call executing 10 random Cairo Jews? A lynching? A picnic?
        Was there an armed insurrection by the Cairo Jews? Were they even armed? Of course not.
        What happened in mandatory Palestine was a civil war.

        Not “happened” eee, but “happening”.

        The Nakba never stopped, it just periodically heats up; it is always occurring. In 1947/48/49 it was white hot, with thousands of Palestinians and Israelis killed, and the deliberate ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians. You can call it a civil war if that pleases you, but let’s not shy away from the facts that the bulk of the zionist casualties occurred in while undertaking offensive action in the Palestinian partition.

        If that’s too much for you lets talk about the 60-80 instances of massacres perpetrated by zionists in 1948 and 1949. Pogroms. Or the massacre of hundreds of Palestinians in 1956 by zionist forces as documented by Joe Sacco in ‘Footnotes in Gaza’. Pogroms. Or the second round of ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the IDF in 1967. Pogroms. Or the mass killing that have occured almost annually since Israel ‘withdrew’ from Gaza in 2005. More pogroms. And those mosque burning that continuously occur across the West Bank. Pogroms.

        All I’m asking you to do is to be consistent in the terminology you use, and examine to what extent you are invested in the idea of jews as perpetual victims, and passive agents in the events in which they are involved. You seem to justify whatever the IDF does, ignoring the fact that the vast majority of Palestinians killed by the IDF are civilians.

        No doubt you’re bothered by the deaths of Israeli children, and of course that’s the only civilised response. So, given the fact that IDF killed ten times more Palestinian children over the last 10 years than vice versa, are Palestinians allowed to be 10 times as pissed off as you?

        You do agree that Israelis have been perpetrating pogroms across mandate Palestine for 60+ years, right?

      • Citizen
        October 8, 2011, 5:56 pm

        There was no Jewish historians for thousands of years, and now we have the “Jewish Virtual Library.” Now, Little Mikey Ohren, now he’s an historian! Dershie comes a close second. In fact, Bibi offered Dershie Mikey’s job first.

  7. DICKERSON3870
    October 7, 2011, 3:10 pm

    RE: “I was going to observe Kol Nidre, the evening service of Yom Kippur, in Cairo.” ~ Weiss

    SPEAKING OF YOM KIPPUR: At the Checkpoint on the Day of Atonement: The Devouring Dragon, By Mats Svensson, Counterpunch, 10/09/08

    (excerpts) In a few hours, Israel will celebrate Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement and repentance. Everything will be closed for 24 hours. Tel Aviv Airport shuts. No planes land or depart. The border crossing to Egypt or Jordan is similarly closed. Everything shuts down. When I sit and speak with Muhammad in Abu Dis, I realize that he sort of celebrates Yom Kippur every day. This is his normal life. Always shut up behind a wall and military checkpoints. He no longer has a car, he is in any case unable to travel outside Abu Dis…
    …Yom Kippur is the day during which we can to some degree understand how all Palestinians are faring behind closed walls. Feel how it is when everything slowly shuts down, ends, becomes nothing…
    …The sun sets early now. I am sitting on Muhammad’s veranda. He tells me that the family used to sit there every evening. You could see how the sun was reflected in the round, golden dome of the Dome of the Rock a few kilometers away. The family had a wonderful view over the holy city, the Mount of Olives, the old wall and the fine stone houses. Every Friday, Mohammed together with his nearest and dearest went to the Al Asqa Mosque to say the important prayers of the week.
    In those days, they used to watch how the sun went down in the distance…
    …Now Muhammad is shut up in a prison. Not in a cell, not in a little room, but in a lost future, a lost history, a lost dream. The view of the gilded dome has changed now. Every morning when Muhammad comes out onto the veranda he is met by a nine meter tall, dead, grey concrete wall. It snakes its way up through the beautiful olive covered hillside like a dead, grey dragon, the dragon is dead, but it still kills. It kills everything on the eastern side where the sun no longer sets in the distance; it kills everything where the twilight comes early…

    ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to counterpunch.org

  8. Exiled At Home
    October 7, 2011, 3:17 pm

    “In Palestine and Jordan and Egypt, Muslims always say to me, We lived for a thousand years with the Jews without any problem, until Zionism.”

    ‘Tis true, Phil…

    The Sephardic Jews of Palestine in the early Twentieth Century -that would be the actual Semitic Jews who actually had legitimate claims to the land- rejected Zionism and pushed back against the wave of aggressive European Jewish immigration. They knew that the long-standing cohabitation between Palestinian Jews, Christians and Muslims was about to be ruptured by a fanatical people, armed with religio-centric notions of superiority, who came to Palestine as occupiers. Sadly, the Sephardic vision has been replaced by the blindness of the Ashkenazis.

    • eee
      October 7, 2011, 4:50 pm

      Initially, the old Sepheradic Jewish families in Palestine were ambivalent about Zionism but all these families eventually became fervent Zionists. They never pushed back against Jewish immigration. So don’t rewrite history.

      • mig
        October 7, 2011, 6:09 pm

        eee :

        “Initially, the old Sepheradic Jewish families in Palestine were ambivalent about Zionism but all these families eventually became fervent Zionists.”

        ++++ Because of why ….

        ” They never pushed back against Jewish immigration.”

        ++++ Only zionist ideology.

        “So don’t rewrite history.”

        ++++ Better that YOU dont talk about history. After that all gets mixed up.

  9. Kate
    October 7, 2011, 3:18 pm

    I’m so sorry, Phil. I wish you could have gone to the synagogue at the right time. What a disappointment that must have been.

  10. eGuard
    October 7, 2011, 3:55 pm

    Phil, what is this “but” doing here?
    … Muslims always say to me, We [Muslims] lived for a thousand years with the Jews without any problem, until Zionism. I [PW] guess they are right, but those chapters of coexistence are now over–for whatever reason.

    “but” used this way is an old journalistic trick to change the subject without having to link properly. (In language, “but” starts an contrary argument: “I’d like ice cream now, but I can’t get it” — Connection, logic, contrary).

    You could leave it out (easy journalistic trick: “if you can leave it out, do so”). You could write: “and” (interesting how that would not change the sentence at all!), or you could add a logic contradiction, now missing. Do you see, in your own text, that these Muslims did give the reason?

    Anyway, it is sloppy.

  11. Saleema
    October 7, 2011, 5:12 pm

    Thank you, Phil. That was a very moving piece. I feel your sense of loss, and it is a loss. For all of us, even those that are not Jews, even those that are not Egyptians. I’m sorry.

  12. seafoid
    October 7, 2011, 5:49 pm

    Cairo isn’t just a Jewish tragedy. It’s an Egyptian disaster .
    Zionism has condemned the entire region to 60 years of war and stagnation.

    Abdel Halim Hafez would not recognise his city.

    • Rania
      October 8, 2011, 3:19 am

      Thank you for posting that. It made my night. I love Abdel Halim Hafez like he is part of my family.

      • seafoid
        October 8, 2011, 6:08 am

        Rania

        I love his music too. I used to live in Cairo and it was everywhere. There was even a tribute concert at the Opera house with the full Arab orchestra.

        He was only 48 when he died. They sent him to a specialist hospital in London for his Bilharzia . Of course nobody knew who he was, this prince of Egypt. And back in Cairo millions turned out for his funeral.

        Another Egyptian musician I really like who also died young is Omar Khorshid

        I heard this music the first time I went to the Middle East . David Guetta has nothing on it.

  13. Richard Witty
    October 7, 2011, 5:55 pm

    It was a wonderful post. Thank you.

  14. NorthOfFortyNine
    October 7, 2011, 6:55 pm

    eee,

    I see you are active again. Last time we exchanged views we discussed the Anatot incident. You said the settlers were “ordinary folk” (paraphrasing) who had been provoked. When I pointed out that what appeared to have provoked these ordinary folks was the sight of a Palestinian flag, you came back and said, no, no — the provocations had extended for a long time prior to the day on the incident.

    Then came Adam’s post which gave us some background on the dispute. See here:

    link to mondoweiss.net

    I want your views on this, for this seems to be a microcosm of much of the friction between the two sides. The dispute in a bottle, in you will. So therefore I want your thoughts on this. I asked in the appropriate thread, but you never stopped by there. So I find you here and ask you to pls comment. Thanks -N49.

    • eee
      October 10, 2011, 12:08 am

      Why is this the dispute in the bottle? Is this the reason there could be no peace after the 1948 war? After the 1967 one? The dispute in a bottle is that the Arabs do not want to accept a Jewish state in the middle east. All the rest is bull shit. Why was there friction after 1948 and before 1967? The Palestinians were on the 67 line and had all the resources of the West Bank and Gaza? Why was there no peace?

      My thoughts are simple regarding this case. This is an internal Israeli matter. This is a land dispute between Israeli citizens. It will be resolved by Israeli courts. And yes, on top of the fact that these people have been provoked for a long time, a Palestinian flag inside their settlement is a provocation. If I go to Ramallah and wave an Israeli flag, do you think it will be a provocation? Or do you naively think I will be ignored?

      • Chaos4700
        October 10, 2011, 9:21 am

        So you believe in territorial expansion by military force of arms, eee? You (and your government) actively reject the Geneva Conventions? Because that’s how you built those settlements — by invasion and bloodshed.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        October 10, 2011, 10:38 pm

        The dispute in a bottle is that the Arabs do not want to accept a Jewish state in the middle east. All the rest is bull shit.

        It is a dispute in a bottle because land theft has been the hallmark of Zionist presence in Palestine. If foriegners showed up on Canadian shores and started stealing land, they would not be welcome either.

        Don’t you feel Zionists have contributed one teensy eensy bit to the hatred they now encounter by the local population?

        >> My thoughts are simple regarding this case. This is an internal Israeli matter.

        Has Israel claimed/annxed this territory? -N49.

  15. ToivoS
    October 7, 2011, 6:56 pm

    Uri Avnery in today’s Counterpunch has a word on the changed attitude in Cairo:

    People here are now saying that the Egyptian public has always been against the peace with Israel, through no fault of ours. That is quite untrue. I was in Cairo a few days after Anwar Sadat’s historic visit to Jerusalem and found the Egyptian capital delirious with joy. Countless Israelis have visited Egypt since then and have been received always and everywhere with utmost friendliness. It was only when Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian territories became more and more oppressive that Egyptians started to feel betrayed.

    • justicewillprevail
      October 7, 2011, 8:33 pm

      Exactly. Israelis like eee are incapable of understanding this simple point. They will invent elaborate, twisted histories and myths, all burnishing their victimhood narrative, blaming everybody else, but can never admit the glaringly obvious: the everyday news of their countless savage, merciless cruelty to the indigenous people of the region has made people hate what they stand for – violence, aggression, brutality and utter indifference to the life, culture and traditions of the region. It is nothing to do with fake histories and carefully manufactured narratives, or the politics of identity, and everything to do with justice, human rights and simple ethical standards. And no, we are not talking about the dictators propped up by Israel/US, but simple, ordinary decent people. It is not who you are (as if we care what version of a common god of three religions you happen to believe in), it is what you do. And what you do in Gaza and the West Bank is abhorrent. Pathetically and perversely calling it a civil war, as if that excuses what you do, only amplifies your immunity to common standards and respect for others.

  16. richb
    October 7, 2011, 7:39 pm

    I hadn’t put two and two together and realized the context of Max Bruch’s music. It’s now that much deeper and has that much more pathos. Thank you.

    link to youtube.com

    G’mar Tov

  17. thetumta
    October 7, 2011, 9:12 pm

    Tell me again why an American should care? Yes, if something like this occurs here to anyone, you have an issue. Otherwise form your own Lincoln Brigade and joust with the world’s windmills. Leave us out of your crusade. Why in the world would any of the people of the region have any sympathy for the Zionist endeavor. Wish Martin was here, he could splain it to you. It’s not an American fight, never has been.
    Hej!

  18. biorabbi
    October 7, 2011, 10:24 pm

    Good post, Phil. A very moving piece of writing, filled with sentiment. I hope that Jews and Muslims will one day live with one another in peace and harmony.

  19. joer
    October 7, 2011, 11:02 pm

    Jews get two free days off a year that no one else gets-Rosh Hashona and Yom Kippur. You really have to be out of your mind to waste that time in synagogue. And you have the perfect excuse to avoid that tedious exercise-you should be celebrating. And why must you try to get into a synagogue in Egypt? That’s sort of rubbing salt in wounds-like going to Northern Ireland to celebrate the queen’s silver jubilee.

    • annie
      October 8, 2011, 12:08 am

      And why must you try to get into a synagogue in Egypt?

      because where ever one stands in the world one should be able to practice ones religion.

      • joer
        October 8, 2011, 5:16 am

        That’s a very principled position. Other principles are not to create unnecessary problems and to mind your own business. If Phil felt he had to pray in synagogue on Kol Nidre he should have postponed his trip. That’s what I would have done. It’s a shame that the three Jews he met there last time can’t spend Kol Nidre in a fancy synagogue, but I think they have a better chance of going there next year if there aren’t Americans coming into their communities and trying to tell them to act.

      • joer
        October 8, 2011, 5:25 am

        What I mean is if Kol Nidre is so important to him, he had the option to stay home and pray-since he’s travelling half way around the world to pray in Egypt, especially in the midst of a revolution, his attempt to pray seems to have primarily a political agenda. But if he’s so religious that he must pray, it seems odd that he is working on Kol Nidre-writing about his trip to the synagogue.

      • edwin
        October 8, 2011, 8:46 am

        I don’t think I mind the principled positions. I’m not sure what “mind your own business” means though I am suspicious of it. “Unnecessary problems” does sound reasonable though.

      • joer
        October 8, 2011, 9:25 am

        “I’m not sure what “mind your own business” means ”

        Not many Americans do…that’s why we are in two wars , and financing I don’t many how many others around the world.

      • edwin
        October 8, 2011, 10:43 am

        I live in the colonies. It is quite easy here to assume that it is all the US’s problem – and we should mind our own business. Similarly with BDS – Its a problem between Jews and Palestinians – or when Jews outside of Israel become uppity it morphs into a problem between Israel and Palestinians.

        There is a fine line somewhere between refusing to condone oppression and attempting to run someone’s life for them. I don’t think that the isolationist side of the pendulum that the US periodically goes through is the answer either. It does, though, have real advantages over what the US is providing now.

      • joer
        October 8, 2011, 11:22 am

        Not everything is the US’s fault, but especially after the US supporting Mubarek for 30 years, it’s not hard to imagine that a good portion of Egyptians are not particularly eager for American help and advice, no matter how well intentioned. ..In this particular case, it’s sad that the three old Jews Phil met last year can’t pray in their favorite synagogue. But I really believe they’d be back in their usual pews sooner without interference. Once Americans start putting their two cents in, it becomes a point of national pride. And I’m not making a claim about “the Arab mind” here-Some mosques around the country are having trouble getting building permits. Do you really think it would help their case if some Iranian or Saudi showed up and started lecturing everyone on what kind of society they should have?

      • biorabbi
        October 8, 2011, 7:39 pm

        Annie, you make an excellent point. Utopian to be sure, but what’s wrong with that. If the people of the world believed in your vision, there would be no war.

    • Ellen
      October 8, 2011, 5:00 am

      Joer, you are telling us that ritual Jewish spiritual prayer is the same as the celebration of a national symbol and figure head?

      If you believe that (and apparently you do) you give confirmation to the arguments above that the Religion of Judaism is tragically being perverted into nationalist ideologies.

      • joer
        October 8, 2011, 7:12 am

        “If you believe that (and apparently you do) you give confirmation to the arguments above that the Religion of Judaism is tragically being perverted into nationalist ideologies.”

        well, actually I do believe that…but that’s not what I was saying in my comment. I’m saying that the Egyptian community would probably be more likely to let a few old Jews carry on a benign ritual without the subtext of outsiders coming in and telling them how to run their societies. Also, Phil was working during Kol Nidre, so the wail of not being able to practice his religion in Egypt is a tiny bit disingenuous.

      • edwin
        October 8, 2011, 9:10 am

        I’m not completely up on my nation states and nationalism – but it seems to me that the separation of Church and State is a relatively new idea. Separation of mosque and state or synagogue and state seems to be less well accepted outside of (former) Christian countries where those of us not in majority Christian sects fully understand the importance of this separation as part of the basis of equality.

        It is not surprising that religious institutions have the same moral underpinning as government. (Moral System B)

        I guess I would say that the perversion is only in the sense of a modern understanding of what religion is and what it should be.

        “At the time of the Maccabees, in the second century BCE, John Hyrcanus of Judea conquered Edom and gave the Edomites the choice of conversion to Judaism, or death. Not being idiots, the Edomites converted, but afterwards they were still treated as inferiors because even though they had become Jews, they were still originally Edomites”.

        link to lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com

      • edwin
        October 8, 2011, 9:23 am

        The quote was from Isaac Asimov.

      • Kathleen
        October 8, 2011, 11:27 am

        yep

  20. Kathleen
    October 8, 2011, 11:18 am

    Phil it is a shame that the synagogue was closed on such a holy day/ hour for religious Jews.

    Can you tell me what this means
    “when we renounce all vows”

    Phil
    “I heard Israel condemned over and over in speeches. People carried posters with the Jewish star on them, a symbol of Israel, sometimes with a red circle around it and a line crossing through it. And a man carried a sign covered in Arabic but with a few English words. “I hate Israel, Israel is behind it,” it said.”

    During the MSM’s coverage of Tahir square protest Richard Engel and others kept saying they did not see any anti Israel signs at all. Kept wondering if that was true.

    I wonder how Egyptian’s feelings towards Israel would change if they started abiding by UN resolution 242 and really attempted to get back to the 67 border, stop building illegal settlements etc

    Phil
    “We’re cousins, Muslims like to say to Jews, and Jews like to say back. We’re both sons of Abraham. And now we’re not. There’s utter separation, and mistrust. It’s a great cultural breach. It feels like it will be longlasting.”

    What is this human phenomena to always make someone else the eternal bad guy, someone you can beat up on, someone not as good, the evil one. And then those who cultivate this horrific thinking and manipulate the situation around that thinking .

    Hope the synagogue opens. If the Egyptians are not going to be tolerant of others faiths then they should try to pretend. Just the way Israel tries to pretend they are tolerant of the “others”

    • jon s
      October 8, 2011, 1:14 pm

      Kathleen, “When we renounce all vows” refers to the Kol Nidre prayer, the central text of the Yom Kippur eve prayer, in which all vows and oaths made over the previous year are cancelled. “Kol Nidre ” means, literally, “all vows”. The prayer is in Aramaic.

      As to Phil’s report – it’s disturbing as a possible indication of the direction in which Egypt is heading.

      • annie
        October 8, 2011, 3:55 pm

        it’s disturbing as a possible indication of the direction in which Egypt is heading.

        i agree, tho i am relieved egyptians are not mimicking jewish terrorists and burning down synagogues.

      • Hostage
        October 9, 2011, 4:30 am

        it’s disturbing as a possible indication of the direction in which Egypt is heading. . . .i agree, tho i am relieved egyptians are not mimicking jewish terrorists and burning down synagogues.

        It’s not merely the work of private terrorists. The state of Israel has deliberately destroyed scores of mosques and turned others (e.g. Beersheba) into museums so that they can no longer be used by the communities that built them.

      • Chaos4700
        October 8, 2011, 4:13 pm

        What? You mean towards the direction Israel has moved, whereby communities in the West Bank are bisected by military checkpoints? If you think it’s bad not being able to get into a synagogue on a Jewish holiday, try getting to hospital on the West Bank when you’re giving birth to a Muslim or Christian baby on a Jewish holiday.

      • seafoid
        October 8, 2011, 4:45 pm

        “As to Phil’s report – it’s disturbing as a possible indication of the direction in which Egypt is heading.”

        Jon

        Judaism as a brand is now toxic in the region.
        It is self inflicted. And anyone who follows Israel for any length of time comes to understand the lie machine.

        Here is the latest step downwards in the unfolding Judische Goetterdaemmerung .

        link to haaretz.com

        ” Israeli President Shimon Peres condemned on Saturday the defacement of Muslim and Christian cemeteries in Jaffa, calling the act “a criminal act that dishonors us and is opposed to the ethical values of Israeli society.””

        Egyptians know that there are no ethical values worth speaking of in Zionism, in Israel, in the Jewish state. They all watched Cast Lead 24/7. They listened to Obama in Cairo in 2009. they know what he said at the UN. They are not stupid.

      • annie
        October 8, 2011, 6:00 pm

        seafoid, i just wrote a draft for this event. i hope it goes up soon. there’s a protest going on in jaffa right now according to my twitter feed.

  21. Kathleen
    October 8, 2011, 11:27 am

    The Defense of Democracies (Defense of Israel) organization hosted Micheal the other day. Cspan covered his talk. He contradicted himself in the very first sentence. Stood up after Clifford May introduced him and said “I can not plug my books because of Israeli law” And then immediately promoted his books.

    He started his manipulated history lesson of the conflict in 1949. He later said the “notion” of a Palestinian state started in the 80’s. Never brought up illegal settlements as one of the biggest problems. Said that Israel could “defend itself by itself” (just when will Israel and the Israeli lobby stop pushing the US into unnecessary and immoral wars) Although the US has certainly done their share of that on our own.

    Later Oren focused on Israel and the Israeli lobby’s demand that the US consider Iran an enemy and how dangerous they are to Israel and the US.
    Oren “Iran is the parmount threat”

    Oren’s biggest whopper was when he said “support for Israel is at an all time high”

    Phil and all think you would be intererested in hearing Micheal Oren’s spin over at CSpan

    • Citizen
      October 8, 2011, 6:06 pm

      Kathleen, I saw Oren’s show on CSPAN this morning; yes, it was as you say. At the end he told the audience he recognized all of them. During his talk I lost count of the historic myths he dropped like rain. The guy lives in a fantasy world; too bad my own fellow Americans support his delusions so lethally.

  22. Mooser
    October 8, 2011, 11:49 am

    Phil should be ashamed to walk into a shul, ashamed. How can he even begin to consider himself a Jew when he married “outside” and moreover, has no children?
    Oh well, some people have no shame. I oughta know, huh?

  23. Mooser
    October 8, 2011, 11:51 am

    In the immortal words of Marty Peretz, “murky and inchoherent”.

    • Mooser
      October 8, 2011, 11:52 am

      Seems to me that for Phil, Judaism is a religion of having your challah and eating it, too.

      • Hostage
        October 9, 2011, 3:56 am

        Seems to me that for Phil, Judaism is a religion of having your challah and eating it, too.

        Fair enough. But that is very much in the ideological tradition of the Reform Rabbinate and leaders like Samuel Holdheim and Elmer Berger. Part of the discussion on Jewish identity here should be the consequences of the almost total reversal of the most cherished tenets of the early Reform rabbinate, like the conversion from anti-Zionist to Zionist uniformity.

    • Kathleen
      October 8, 2011, 12:12 pm

      Phils post and efforts are clear, honest, admirable. He is trying to save Israel and the Israeli lobby from their own destructive actions

      • Keith
        October 8, 2011, 5:23 pm

        KATHLEEN- Mooser’s comments are irreverent and entertaining with a bit of truth sandwiched in. He adds some needed humor to Mondoweiss. I suspect that Phil likes having him around.

      • Kathleen
        October 10, 2011, 10:25 am

        Well that may be but his willingness to discount and make fun of the loss of life in Iraq, Afghanistan etc and the tolerance for that bullshit by Phil, Adam etc demonstrates a massive double standard. If that same type of twisted and sick humor were used in anyway to make light of the murders of millions of Jews, Poles, (seldom mentioned anywhere) Gypsies etc by the Hitler killing machine you can bet your ass Phil and Adam would either not allow this or jump on those individuals asses. Mooser often undermines the seriousness of these deaths by poking fun in a twisted way

      • Keith
        October 10, 2011, 7:15 pm

        KATHLEEN- “Well that may be but his willingness to discount and make fun of the loss of life in Iraq, Afghanistan etc….”

        I have never seen Mooser say anything even remotely resembling this. His humorous comments (not his serious ones) are almost always directed toward individuals, in the comments you reacted to towards Phil. His comments towards Phil usually revolve around some aspect of Jewish identity, and frequently involve Mooser poking Phil with a form of guy humor that women don’t understand and don’t like. Had I known that my comment would provoke such an over the top reaction, I wouldn’t have made it. As for the Mondoweiss moderation policy, you should be happy your comment got through in which you equate Mooser’s comments regarding a religious service in Cairo with making light of mass murder, an interesting conclusion to say the least.

      • Hostage
        October 9, 2011, 4:04 am

        Phils post and efforts are clear, honest, admirable. He is trying to save Israel and the Israeli lobby from their own destructive actions

        I think that he is trying to establish a that a legitimate Jewish identity and culture exists which is separate from Medinat Yisra’el; Zionism; and the Israeli lobby.

  24. Dan Crowther
    October 8, 2011, 11:59 am

    To be fair Joer and co. – I think Phil was lamenting that there were no longer jews in the community – and therefore the synagogue was only being protected and not open for prayer service. Not necessarily that he was turned away.

    I would say that Phil’s surprise at the reality comes off as a bit, i dont know, naive? entitled? – but, as my post at the top of the thread says, its sad – that a long standing community is all but gone, and the political reality in Egypt has soldiers waving people away from synagogues.

  25. Tal
    October 8, 2011, 4:52 pm

    I believe that Jews in Arab countries were treated better than Jews in Europe. Still, I think that they have always felt like guests and naturally dreamed of the day they will be able to establish a sovereign community in eretz israel. I don’t understand the anti zionists who understand and sympathize with Arab pride and Arab nationalism but refuse to understand these same sentiments when expressed by Jews.
    Let me ask you this – if israel treated it’s Arab citizens the same way that Egypt treats it’s Coptic citizens, would you cease to be an anti Zionist?

    • annie
      October 8, 2011, 6:02 pm

      I think that they have always felt like guests

      well, you don’t speak for all jews. i know lots of american jews and not a one of them ever told me they felt like guests in their own country (the US).

      • Tal
        October 9, 2011, 3:48 am

        The US is different. It’s ethos is not related to ethnics although religion (Christianity of course) does play a major role. Luckily for the Jews, Judaism is perceived as part and parcel of the Judeo-Christian spirit of America. Muslims in America are less lucky in this way.
        In Arab countries Jews were perceived as “Dhimmi”. They were protected but never equal.

      • Chaos4700
        October 9, 2011, 12:06 pm

        Actually, the real luck of Jews in the US is that they are white and mostly from Europe. THAT is what counts in the US, just ask blacks, people of Arab or Asian descent, Hispanics, etc.

      • Hostage
        October 9, 2011, 12:52 pm

        THAT is what counts in the US, just ask blacks, people of Arab or Asian descent, Hispanics, etc.

        Nonetheless, many of us can name notable examples of Hispanics and Arabs who were successful before the civil rights movement gained popular acceptance, like Desi Arnaz and Danny Thomas. The Arab American Institute has complied quite a long list of successful people of Arab heritage, including one or two Jewish people:
        link to aaiusa.org

    • annie
      October 8, 2011, 6:04 pm

      I don’t understand the anti zionists who understand and sympathize with Arab pride and Arab nationalism but refuse to understand these same sentiments when expressed by Jews.

      maybe because arab pride and nationalism didn’t include ethnically cleansing the natives off their land.

      • eee
        October 9, 2011, 1:12 am

        Really? Ever heard of the Banu_Qurayza?
        link to en.wikipedia.org

        And what about the 800,000 Jews that were exiled from Arab countries because of the rise of Arab nationalism?

      • Sumud
        October 9, 2011, 2:08 am

        Exiled – or chose to leave their lands to answer the call of zionism? It was a heroic story of jewish ingathering in the 50s and 60 but now the real history of the Nakba is known suddenly ME jews were ethnically cleansed instead. I believe isolated incidents of this did occur but not 800,000 people.

        Where’s the UN resolution on right of return for these jewish refugees? There is none.

      • Cliff
        October 9, 2011, 4:05 am

        eee, the “rise of Arab nationalism” LOL?

        Didn’t these countries already exist? These ARAB countries?

      • Hostage
        October 9, 2011, 8:08 am

        Didn’t these countries already exist? These ARAB countries?

        Yes. “Ottoman” was a euphemism for Muslim by the late 19th century. When the CUP party decided on the Turkification plan, a number of Ottoman state officials, including the Sharif of Mecca, demanded more decentralization and started a civil war.

        This is part of the Zionist bedtime story in which the inhabitants of the various Vilayets in the Ottoman Province of Arabistan were stateless. They pretend the Arabs were not represented in the Ottoman government, much less included among its religious or secular leaders. When you stop to consider the fact that even the Jewish Virtual Library has a page which explains that Yussef Diya’uddin Al-Khalidi was Speaker of the Ottoman Parliament and Jerusalem’s representative there in 1876, it’s pretty amazing that they still cling to these old myths. link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org

      • LeaNder
        October 9, 2011, 10:36 am

        eee, seems you have to go back quite a bit in time, to make your point?
        Are you somehow suggesting that Zionist actions against Palestinians in the 20th century can be justified by something that happened in 627?

      • eee
        October 9, 2011, 12:39 pm

        LeaNder,

        No. But are you suggesting that Zionist actions should have some absolute standards that only they should be judged upon? Are you suggesting that the Palestinian issue can totally be removed from the Arab-Israeli issue?

        I am saying that it is only fair to address all issues on the table and those include the 800,000 Jews exiled from Arab countries.

      • Chaos4700
        October 9, 2011, 12:46 pm

        But are you suggesting that Zionist actions should have some absolute standards that only they should be judged upon?

        Geneva Conventions? Is that too hard for you to manage, eee?

        I am saying that it is only fair to address all issues on the table and those include the 800,000 Jews exiled from Arab countries.

        Not when you’re holding the Palestinians hostage. Thieves don’t get their day in court until their victims have had theirs.

      • annie
        October 9, 2011, 12:54 pm

        I am saying that it is only fair to address all issues on the table and those include the 800,000 Jews exiled from Arab countries.

        nothing original here, in fact it’s been argued here before repeatedly. israel has always tried to ‘trade’ it’s debt to palestine by transfering it to arab jews. in fact there’s evidence to suggest the zionist underground bombed the american library in baghdad (similiar to the zionist bombing the american library in alexandria during the lavon affair) to encourage emigration from baghdad. the iraqi jews know this.

        so the two situations are not at all on the same table. sometimes i get the feeling hasbara centraal will throw any and everything on the wall as an excuse to evade their responsibility. it won’t work.

      • Cliff
        October 9, 2011, 12:57 pm

        The Jewish exodus from the Arab countries came after the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. It is IRRELEVANT.

        You are trying to justify the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in the most idiotic way. Even for you! lol

      • LeaNder
        October 9, 2011, 1:01 pm

        But are you suggesting that Zionist actions should have some absolute standards that only they should be judged upon?

        How do you know?

      • eee
        October 9, 2011, 2:07 pm

        Annie,

        The evidence you rely on to explain a sliver of the 800,000 leaving or being exiled is very very weak. And it justifies nothing. Just as Israel did not agree to accept back or compensate any of the 47 refugees, the Arab countries did not agree to accept back or compensate their Jews. If you want to solve one problem, you have to solve the other. The cases are very, very similar. Or are you arguing that the more than half of the Palestinians that left in 47 of their own accord waiting to return in better times are not really refugees?

      • annie
        October 9, 2011, 2:14 pm

        If you want to solve one problem, you have to solve the other

        lol

      • eee
        October 9, 2011, 4:04 pm

        You can laugh all you want. This will be part of the final agreement negotiations.

      • Potsherd2
        October 9, 2011, 4:53 pm

        Are you saying, e, that a million mizrahi Jews are only waiting for negotations before they shake the accursed dust of Israel from their feet and return to their Arab homelands? That would be good news!

      • Hostage
        October 9, 2011, 5:14 pm

        You can laugh all you want. This will be part of the final agreement negotiations.

        lol! We’ve been here before. You can negotiate all you want, but if the IDF isn’t withdrawn and the refugees repatriated first, the so-called “final agreement” will be null and void at the time it is concluded (ab initio). See Article 52 Coercion of a State by the threat or use of force; Article 53 Treaties conflicting with a peremptory norm of general international law (“jus cogens”); and the official commentary on Article 8 of the 4th Geneva Convention:
        link to untreaty.un.org
        link to icrc.org

      • Cliff
        October 9, 2011, 6:00 pm

        What final agreements? What negotiations?

        There will be none of that.

        The ONLY reason your racist apartheid State can dictate anything, is through FORCE.

        You have no moral high-ground. You have no legitimacy except your own circular logic.

      • DBG
        October 10, 2011, 9:49 am

        so if there are no negotiations what is the end result going to be? perpetual victim hood for the Palestinians? Isn’t 60 + years of that enough?

      • Potsherd2
        October 10, 2011, 10:11 am

        DBG – yes, that is what the end result is going to be. That has been the program of the Israelis from Day One – to persecute the Palestinian population until it leaves in despair and keep persecuting as long as there is a single Palestinian remaining in the Palestinian homeland.

      • eee
        October 10, 2011, 10:15 am

        Potsherd2,

        What I am saying is that just as Palestinians will be compensated, so will be Mizrahi Jews. And if they want to return to Arab countries, who can stop them?

      • eee
        October 10, 2011, 10:18 am

        Hostage,

        You know very well that any solution will be along the Clinton parameters and only very few extremists like you will interpret that agreement as null and void because it was “forced” on the Palestinians. Good luck arguing such a case when the representatives of the Palestinians will say that they freely signed the agreement.

      • DBG
        October 10, 2011, 10:38 am

        it still needs to be addressed Cliff, the fact it happened after the Nakba doesn’t make it OK.

      • Shmuel
        October 10, 2011, 10:54 am

        Good luck arguing such a case when the representatives of the Palestinians will say that they freely signed the agreement.

        Maybe they will sign such an agreement (if it is ever seriously proposed) and maybe they won’t. If they do so without broad popular support, the agreement will ultimately fail to achieve its goals.

        In the meantime, here is an excerpt from the official Palestinian response to the Clinton Parameters (dated January 1, 2001):

        We wish to explain why the latest United States proposals, taken together and as presented without clarification, fail to satisfy the conditions required for a permanent peace. As it stands now, the United States proposal would.

        divide a Palestinian state into three separate cantons connected and divided by Jewish-only and Arab-only roads and jeopardize the a Palestinian state’s viability;

        divide Palestinian Jerusalem into a number of unconnected islands separate from each other and from the rest of Palestine;

        force Palestinians to surrender the right of return of Palestinian refugees. It also fails to provide workable security arrangements between Palestine and Israel, and to address a number of other issues of importance to the Palestinian people. The United States proposal seems to respond to Israeli demands while neglecting the basic Palestinian need: a viable state.

        The United States proposals were couched in general terms that in some instances lack clarity and detail. A permanent status agreement, in our view, is not merely a document that declares general political principles. It is, rather, a comprehensive instrument that spells out the details, modalities, and timetables of ending the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. For such an agreement to be effective, it must be backed by clear, effective international implementation guarantees. We believe that a general, vague agreement at this advanced stage of the peace process will be counter-productive. This conviction has resulted from our past experiences with vague agreements and from Israel’s history of non-compliance with signed agreements. The permanent status agreement must be a truly final agreement rather than an agreement to negotiate.

        link to nad-plo.org

        Israel’s “facts on the ground” since January 2001 have made the Clinton parameters even less viable as a basis for a permanent status agreement.

      • Cliff
        October 10, 2011, 11:20 am

        The parameters WERE forced on the Palestinians.

        Hostage doesn’t support colonialism and apartheid. YOU do.

        Hostage is well-read on this conflict and doesn’t rely on Wikipedia – a online encyclopedia that anyone can edit and which has been infiltrated by coordinated Zionist advocacy groups like CAMERA.

        The only extremist here is you. An extremist who supports the theft of Palestinian land and the religious fanatic settlers.

      • Cliff
        October 10, 2011, 11:22 am

        What are you arguing DBG? I didn’t say it didn’t matter,

        No one did.

        It was you who dishonestly is trying to whitewash the Zionist ethnic cleansing of Palestine by idiotically implying that the Palestinian victims were to blame. Clearly you think they had an antisemitic time machine.

      • DBG
        October 10, 2011, 11:31 am

        Cliff, who said Palestinians were to blame? care to show where I or anyone else said that?

        One thing, I am glad you don’t deny the Jewish Nakba, that is progress.

      • Potsherd2
        October 10, 2011, 11:51 am

        If Mizrahi Jews want to be compensated for the property they left behind in, say, Iraq, they should go negotiate with Iraq. This has nothing to do with the issues between Palestinians and Israel.

        What you propose is, simply, extortion.

      • Hostage
        October 10, 2011, 12:12 pm

        Hostage, You know very well that any solution will be along the Clinton parameters and only very few extremists like you will interpret that agreement as null and void because it was “forced” on the Palestinians.

        I always find it fascinating when Zionist’s label customary and conventional laws adopted unanimously by the international community of states as “extremism”. Don’t blame me if your officials don’t understand the meaning of all the treaties they’ve signed on your behalf.

        The obvious reason that there has never been a negotiated settlement to date is because Israel wants to impose one more to its liking. Unfortunately, the terms it wants have already been declared illegal and they would instantly be declared null and void by the international community and the international courts. So, the Zionists have naturally delayed and created an even bigger mess for themselves. They demanded that the PLO or PA accept a two state solution knowing full well that it wasn’t really a viable economic alternative even in 1948. The Palestinians are forcing the Israelis, the Quartet, and the US Congress to admit publicly that the offer of self-determination and a Palestinian state was never legitimate.

        Arafat and Abbas have declined or refused to act on previous offers corresponding to the Clinton parameters. Netanyahu’s address to the joint session of Congress and AIPAC indicated that nothing approaching the Clinton proposal is even in the offing under the current regime. If nothing else, we all know by now that the extremists in the US Congress would block a settlement along those lines anyway. In fact, it’s doubtful they would even accept UN recognition of a Palestinian rump state in Area C, since Israeli officials would still be liable to prosecution for war crimes committed there since 2002.

        For all of those reasons, the Palestinians have given-up on negotiations and gone back to the UN. They are asking for the necessary leverage to negotiate a settlement in-line previous UN resolutions and international law. When that exercise fails, the only likely alternative will be a formal sanctions regime to impose a one state solution between the Jordan and the Med, not the old Clinton parameters.

    • Hostage
      October 9, 2011, 5:04 am

      I think that they have always felt like guests and naturally dreamed of the day they will be able to establish a sovereign community in eretz israel. I don’t understand the anti zionists who understand and sympathize with Arab pride and Arab nationalism but refuse to understand these same sentiments when expressed by Jews.

      The notion that Anti-Zionist accept comparable acts of Arab racism is a straw man. There are major differences between Arab nationalism and Jewish nationalism in both theory and practice. The Arabs were indigenous and did not establish nations that excluded indigenous Jews.

      Sovereignty means jurisdiction over others in matters of life and death; taxes; private property ownership, and access to natural resources. The first sovereign act of the Jews was to launch unprovoked attacks against Palestinian towns and villages to gauge the level of armed resistance they offered in self-defense. If any resistance was encountered, the standing orders required that the inhabitants were to be driven into exile beyond the borders of the Hebrew state. The newly evacuated towns and villages were then either destroyed or occupied by alien Jewish immigrants. The former inhabitants were shot on sight as illegal “infiltrators”; the remaining Arabs were placed under martial law for nearly two decades; and a two-tiered system of legislation was enacted which relegated non-Jews to a permanent second class status. At the same time special rights and privileges were granted to any persons of Jewish descendancy regardless of their country of origin. Casualty figures in the I-P conflict show that Arab losses have always been double those of the Jews, who nonetheless claim to be the victims.

      • Tal
        October 9, 2011, 9:43 am

        “The notion that Anti-Zionist accept comparable acts of Arab racism is a straw man. ”

        I never claimed that Anti-Zionists accept Arab Racism. It is YOU who is erecting a straw man.
        My claim is that Anti-zionists respect Arab Nationalism while rejecting Jewish Nationalism.

        “The Arabs were indigenous”
        Their ancestors were conquerors and ethnic cleansers as much as the zionists are. History does not stop whenever you say so.

        ” and did not establish nations that excluded indigenous Jews.”
        Jews were never truly seen as equals under arab rule which was based on Islam notions. As long as the jews accepted Islam state superiority they were tolerated.
        When Arabs established their nation states they kicked out the Jews.

        Bottom line – we deserve to have our nation state in which hebrew/jewish culture is dominant. We have no right to rule over Palestinians in the WB and we have no right to discriminate against non-jews in Israel but if these 2 issues are amended, than we are good as any other nation in this world.
        Therefore it is legitimate to criticize Israel. It is not legitimate to call for the dismantle of the state of Israel. Especially not 60 years after the holocaust.

      • Potsherd2
        October 9, 2011, 10:33 am

        Nobody “deserves” to have a nation state. If Israel is “as good as any other nation in the world,” it is as legitimate to call for its dismantling as for any other state. All throughout history, states have been founded, carved up and eliminated. Israel’s turn will come. Sooner, hopefully, than later.

        And the holocaust has nothing to do with it.

      • Hostage
        October 9, 2011, 11:06 am

        I never claimed that Anti-Zionists accept Arab Racism. It is YOU who is erecting a straw man.

        You posed a strawman question based upon ethnicity, not religion. There are both Muslim and Christain Arabs: “if israel treated it’s Arab citizens the same way that Egypt treats it’s Coptic citizens, would you cease to be an anti Zionist?” The Copts are not descendants of the Arabs; their Coptic language is the direct descendant of Demotic Egyptian; and they have not converted to Islam.

        “The Arabs were indigenous” . . .Their ancestors were conquerors and ethnic cleansers as much as the zionists are. History does not stop whenever you say so.

        In fact, DNA studies prove that many of them shared the same Jewish ancestors as some of the modern-day Zionists. Some scholars suggest that there were only about 23,000 Arabs that rode out of the Arabian Peninsula during the conquest (and some of them were members of allied Jewish tribes). BTW, they subjugated indigenous peoples and made cultural and religious converts, but they did not replace them.

        Avigdor Levy and others have written extensively about the fact that entire autonomous Jewish communities were tolerated for hundreds of years under Islam. It really doesn’t matter if the modern-day Palestinian refugees are willing to accept dhimmitude, the State of Israel has stated emphatically that it will not tolerate them.

        Bottom line – we deserve to have our nation state in which hebrew/jewish culture is dominant.

        Nonsense. The right of self-determination can be exercised through free association or incorporation in another existing state. Those are exactly the terms that the Zionist organization accepted under the League of Nations Mandate and the Balfour Declaration. There is no right to establish a nation-state by force in a territory inhabited by another people without their consent. That’s why the UN Security Council refused to take any action or adopt the General Assembly’s plan of partition and called on another Special Session to reconsider alternative courses of action.

        You are invoking another strawman when you discuss dismantling apartheid. Israel can grant Jews a right of return after a hundred generations, but it claims that it will somehow cease to exist unless it is permitted to deny Palestinian refugees their own right of return. There is no evidence to support that claim.

      • LeaNder
        October 9, 2011, 12:50 pm

        Hostage: Israel can grant Jews a right of return after a hundred generations, but it claims that it will somehow cease to exist unless it is permitted to deny Palestinian refugees their own right of return. There is no evidence to support that claim.

        Well I would assume the “evidence” is what it has always been from the Zionist perspective. Jews are a nation that is ultimately alien in any other nation. Zionism is meant to make antisemitism go away by separating them among the nations in their own country.

        The tension between freeing the single Jew versus freeing the Jewish nation is still existent. It always was. …

        Leon Pinsker:

        … to the living the Jew is a corpse, to the native a foreigner, to the homesteader a vagrant, to the proprietary a beggar, to the poor an exploiter and a millionaire, to the patriot a man without a country, for all a hated rival.”

      • Hostage
        October 9, 2011, 4:44 pm

        Zionism is meant to make antisemitism go away by separating them among the nations in their own country.

        There’s no evidence to support that superstition either. According to Jabotinsky:

        “What we see around us among Jews is merely the outcome of arbitrary action perpetrated by others. This prevalent Jew, the Yid, as he is pejoratively called by the Gentiles, does not reflect a proud national past but embodies the very negative traits from which Zionism seeks to redeem the Jews. Only after removing the dust accumulated through two thousand years of exile, of galut, will the true, authentic Hebrew character reveal its glorious head. Only then shall we be able to say: This is a typical Hebrew, in every sense of the word.”

        Well, it turned out that the typical Hebrew is an unrepentant Troglodyte in every sense of the word. We were much better off with the prevalent Jew, the Yid.

      • Cliff
        October 9, 2011, 6:08 pm

        Their ancestors were conquerors and ethnic cleansers as much as the zionists are. History does not stop whenever you say so.

        The Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed by your racist apartheid State did not ethnically cleanse anybody. They are no responsible for something that happened 1000s of years ago.

        This is Zionism. This is the lengths a nut like you has to go to justify Zionism.

        You had no right to kick those people off their land. Jews have lived all over the world after their original exodus. So you are saying that in that time, they weren’t really part of the world. Just biding their time until they could come back and kick out whoever was living in Palestine at the time.

        So why don’t Jews all over the world leave to live in Israel? Why should Jews be allowed to live all over the world, while Palestinians can only live OUTSIDE of their ancestral homeland?

        This is disgusting Jewish supremacy. You revel in the victim-hood of your ancestors and use it as a weapon.

        As if something that happened 3000 years ago or however many 1000s or 100s of years ago has ANY bearing on this conflict. It doesn’t.

        That also implies that Zionism is finished. Israel hasn’t declared it’s final borders. The ethnic cleansing continues. You won’t be satisfied til you’ve claimed all the land that you want.

        So it’s not like WE are conveniently beginning history when we want to. We aren’t. It is you who are justifying ethnic cleansing and pretending that the Nakba was a one-time deal. It is not. It is inherent to Zionism. And it continues.

        Why should non-Jewish nationalists sit back while they see something wrong happening?

        Because 3000 years ago, blah blah blah?

        Then you throw in the Holocaust.

        All of that bullshit to justify your own on-going crimes.

      • Tal
        October 10, 2011, 3:29 am

        Israel’s turn will come. Sooner, hopefully, than later.

        Israel is my home.
        You, wishing for my home to dismantle, are cruel.

        I do not wish the USA to dismantle although It has perpetrated far worse sins than the state of Israel ever has.

      • Tal
        October 10, 2011, 3:51 am

        The Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed by your racist apartheid State did not ethnically cleanse anybody. They are no responsible for something that happened 1000s of years ago.

        Straw man.
        I did not justify the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
        I am saying that Jewish Nationalism has not done more crimes than other movements throughout history which were based on ethnics and/or religion. Back then it wasn’t called nationalism, they had other names for it.
        You are barking on the wrong tree. I do not justify the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians or the keeping of WB Palestinians without civil rights.
        The problem is that your rage towards Israelis drives your hate and your wish to create injustices in order to amend another injustice.

        Why should non-Jewish nationalists sit back while they see something wrong happening?

        Rhetoric question.
        They shouldn’t. BDS is a relatively moral choice to fight Israeli injustices.
        However, If BDS continues after Israel is no longer occupying Palestinians in the WB, then reasonable people will start equating it with the sanctions used against against jews back in
        Europe.

        a nut like you
        I would appreciate if you not use this despicable ad hominem attitude. It only weakens your case.

      • RoHa
        October 10, 2011, 4:01 am

        Tal, if the state of Israel is dismantled, what horrible things will happen to you? Will you be driven out of your house, perhaps?

        I doubt it. So where is the cruelty?

        But the lot of the Palestinians will be greatly improved, and you will get a chance to improve yourself by becoming more human.

        Who would be harmed, and who would benefit from the dismantling of the USA? Once we get a clear answer to that question, we can divide the US between Canada, Mexico, and New Zealand.

      • Tal
        October 10, 2011, 6:36 am

        Tal, if the state of Israel is dismantled, what horrible things will happen to you?

        I’ll tell you what will happen. We will become a minority inside an arab muslim country. We will become a Yugoslavia, a Lebanon.
        Those who have the means will emigrate and the weak ones will be damned. Will you then be satisfied?

        Who would be harmed, and who would benefit from the dismantling of the USA?

        You know damn well that a overwhelming majority of Americans will never dream of letting it happen. But you know what, A world without borders is a nice slogan. Start it at your own home. Suggest in your community to allow anyone in the world who wishes to immigrate to the USA to do so.
        Creating a worldwide community is indeed a noble cause but it should be achieved slowly like was done in Europe – by maintaining the sovereignty of the local communities

      • RoHa
        October 10, 2011, 7:40 am

        “We will become a minority inside an arab muslim country. We will become a Yugoslavia, a Lebanon.”

        That’s odd. The number of Jews seems about equal to the number of Christian and Muslim Arabs combined. And according to some MW regulars, it will be the Jews who hold the economic power.

        And Lebanon isn’t so bad.

        “Those who have the means will emigrate and the weak ones will be damned.”

        What happened to all the Jewish solidarity?

        “You know damn well that a overwhelming majority of Americans will never dream of letting it happen.”

        Even if it benefits them?

        “A world without borders is a nice slogan. ”

        But not what I am suggesting. I was thinking of a Canadian-Mexican border in the part east of the Rockies, and the bit west of the Rockies becoming part of New Zealand.

      • Potsherd2
        October 10, 2011, 11:57 am

        Israel is cruel. Driving the Palestinians into exile is cruel. Why should you be immune to cruelty when you inflict it on others?

        Sins will be visited upon the heads of the sinners. And it is Israel’s sins that will be its downfall.

        As for the US, it is crumbling as we watch, and while it is my home, I can only say that its downfall is inevitable as the downfall of all empires.

      • Potsherd2
        October 10, 2011, 12:03 pm

        We will become a minority inside an arab muslim country. We will become a Yugoslavia, a Lebanon.
        Those who have the means will emigrate and the weak ones will be damned. Will you then be satisfied?

        Yes, I’d probably be satisfied with such a just outcome. If it weren’t for ethnic cleansing, that would have been Israel’s makeup all along.

      • jon s
        October 11, 2011, 7:57 am

        Tal, I agree with much of your posts. Many of the posters here see nothing wrong with national movements and nation-states all over the world. A Jewish state, on the other hand, is racism.
        The detached referrence to “if Israel is dismantled…” :I can’t see that happening without a genocidal-scale bloodbath. And as you pointed out, this is our home they are talking about so nonchalantly.

      • annie
        October 11, 2011, 8:42 am

        “if Israel is dismantled…”…..this is our home they are talking about so nonchalantly.

        do you mean in comparison to the seriousness in which israel dismantles palestine day in and day out?

        how’s this for nonchalance:
        Netanyahu seeks to legalize outposts built on private Palestinian land.

        A Jewish state, on the other hand, is racism.

        not ‘a’ jewish state, your jewish state. israel is a racist state. it doesn’t have to be but it is. try taking some responsibility for that instead of blaming those who point out the obvious.

      • DBG
        October 11, 2011, 9:14 am

        Annie, you can do your oh but your side is worse argument all day, but you are still talking about dismantling their country. You can’t think, with all honesty, that will ever happen w/ out a fight.

      • Chaos4700
        October 11, 2011, 9:16 am

        As long as you and Tal believe you need to slaughter Arabs down to the women and children to enforce your Jewish dominion, jon, you will be the enemy of modern society.

      • Chaos4700
        October 11, 2011, 9:27 am

        This is why your state must go, Israel.

      • DBG
        October 11, 2011, 9:42 am

        where does a state go exactly Chaos? how about the 70% of Israelis who were born in Israel?

      • Hostage
        October 11, 2011, 9:44 am

        Many of the posters here see nothing wrong with national movements and nation-states all over the world. A Jewish state, on the other hand, is racism.

        Well duh! Many of us object to racist nation-states anywhere. Herzl preached the immiscibility of the Jewish people with those of other origins. We know from DNA studies on European Jews that about 60% are the result of admixtures of peoples from the Middle East and Europe. So the founding myth of an ancient homeland in Palestine and the premise for Zionism is unsupportable. Herzl’s theory was every bit as racist and unscientific as those of the Nazis and the KKK.

        The detached referrence to “if Israel is dismantled…” :I can’t see that happening without a genocidal-scale bloodbath.

        You have a lack of imagination. If much larger countries, like the Soviet Union and South Africa, can be dismantled without a genocidal-scale bloodbath, then tiny Israel can be dismantled too.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 11, 2011, 9:59 am

        “Many of the posters here see nothing wrong with national movements and nation-states all over the world. A Jewish state, on the other hand, is racism.”

        If another national movement or nation state was premised on the theft from another poeple of their land and their self determination the way Zionism is premised, I would object to that state as much as I did against Apartheid South Africa, and as I do against Israel (and many other states in the world.)

        “I can’t see that happening without a genocidal-scale bloodbath. And as you pointed out, this is our home they are talking about so nonchalantly.”

        Yes, and it was the home of the Palestinians which the Zionists “so nonchalantly” talked about from the mid-19th C. to today. If Zionists didn’t don’t give a damn about the blood bath which you have inflicted and continue to inflict on the Palestinians, why should you expect anyone to give a damn if you, yourselves, become the victims of a blood bath?

      • eee
        October 11, 2011, 10:25 am

        “why should you expect anyone to give a damn if you, yourselves, become the victims of a blood bath?”

        We don’t, that is what the IDF is for. For centuries Jews were slaughtered and the world did nothing. Why would it do anything now?

        What is interesting is that you write such things as the above and then also argue that we are paranoid.

      • Hostage
        October 11, 2011, 11:13 am

        where does a state go exactly Chaos? how about the 70% of Israelis who were born in Israel?

        We are discussing states as abstract legal and political constructs. When South Africans repealed the apartheid laws, the people who were born there didn’t (*poof*) magically disappear.

        There are about an equal number of Palestinians and Jews in the region, if we include the refugees in neighboring states. Why do you run around shreying as if it would be *the end of the world as we know it* if the Palestinians were given an equal democratic say about the composition of the government and the laws that are imposed on them?

      • DBG
        October 11, 2011, 11:16 am

        So all of the descendents of the refugees would be included in this binational state? how on earth will it survive? where will they live? who is going to support them? Do you think this will happen peacefully? both sides hate each other, both sides have grown up hating each other.

      • Citizen
        October 11, 2011, 12:15 pm

        The IDF is weak, as it’s foray into Lebanon proved. The IDF has never faced a military at least as powerful as its own. If Uncle Sam withdrew its support net from the IDF today, the IDF would fold in weeks if met by a barely professional military. Israel is like the bully gang in the ghetto street; no match for the cops when push comes to shove. Without a host goy superpower nation, the IDF is nothing.

      • Woody Tanaka
        October 11, 2011, 12:39 pm

        “We don’t, ”

        LOL. Then when are you going to stop complaining with the lies about how oh-so-threatened you are?

        “…that is what the IDF is for.”

        Well, to judge by its actions, I would have guessed it was to steal other people’s lands, to murder innocent Arabs and to be an all-purpose war-crime committing terror group.

        “For centuries Jews were slaughtered and the world did nothing.”

        Not true, but if it were, wouldn’t you think that experience would inculcate in you a refusal to treat others with the type of disregard for basic human decency with which your ancestors were treated?? Instead, you choose to be the oppressors. Pathetic, sad, and sick, all at the same time.

        “What is interesting is that you write such things as the above and then also argue that we are paranoid.”

        Not really. I wrote a rhetorical question precisely because you are paranoid. The world would be a much better place if your fellow countrymen weren’t paranoid.

      • Hostage
        October 11, 2011, 1:25 pm

        So all of the descendents of the refugees would be included in this binational state? how on earth will it survive? where will they live? who is going to support them? Do you think this will happen peacefully? both sides hate each other, both sides have grown up hating each other.

        LOL! Israel has shuffled-off responsibility for supporting the Palestinian refugees to others for decades. Are you admitting the neighboring countries and the UNRWA are better at problem solving and more resourceful than your own government officials? BTW, why do Zionists keep preaching about the necessity of supporting a Jewish nation-state to serve as a safe haven for the 6 million Jews who live in the US? . . .;-) We could always turn your argument around and suggest that there are dozens of Arab countries that must repatriate all of those so-called Jewish refugees and their descendants;-)

        It’s odd that Israel says the Palestinian refugees should exercise the RoR in a future Palestinian state, but expresses disbelief that the same number of people could be accommodated in the much larger region of both Israel and Palestine. In any event, polls show that 90 percent of the refugees in question want to exercise their right to compensation, not their right to return to Israel. They’re employed as a propaganda tactic to postpone a final settlement. Official preparations for any real settlement will have to include the step of consulting the actual wishes of the individuals concerned at some point in time to quantify the actual numbers involved. If you look at water usage per capita the problem is pretty obvious. The Israeli agricultural sector uses 70% of the water and contributes only 2% of GDP. You are already subsidizing that anomaly by building more water desalinization plants to service the needs of the national water carrier. It’s really a lot cheaper to produce and purchase these products somewhere else.

      • DBG
        October 11, 2011, 1:30 pm

        Luckily for the IDF there isn’t a professional army in the ME.

        I love how in one post you’ll be claiming they are the ‘4th strongest military’ in the world and next they can’t defeat a ‘barely professional military.’ Make up your damn minds people.

      • Citizen
        October 12, 2011, 3:22 am

        DBG, nothing inconsistent in having the 4th rated strongest military in the world on paper, yet seeing how it did, e.g. in Lebanon against Hezbollah.

  26. atime forpeace
    October 8, 2011, 7:46 pm

    Phil, if this doesn’t work out for you, try high comedy in Hollywood.

    I tried to explain to him that right now is the solemnest hour of the Jewish year– when we renounce all vows.

  27. harvey
    October 9, 2011, 5:38 am

    Why on earth would a Jew be in Cairo on Yom kippur knowing full well that it would be impossible to make up a minyan ( minimum 10 men required to hold a service ) unless of course it provided an opportunity to pen an Israel put down . Even the least devout , 3 times a year Jew manages to find a Synagogue to pray on Kol Nidre unless you just happen to be in an Arab state – Morocco and Tunisia excepted and then for who knows how much longer .
    It’s one thing to obsessively target Israel as the fount of all evil. It’s another shedding crocodile tears about failing to find a synagogue to worship on Yom Kippur .

    • Chaos4700
      October 9, 2011, 12:07 pm

      I hope you’re off somewhere on the internet roasting that one Italian Jew who’s in Libya, trying to single-handedly rebuild a derelict synagogue there. So can we assume you disapprove of him as well?

      • DBG
        October 10, 2011, 1:49 am

        Looks like the ethnic cleansing of Libyan Jews is almost complete. Long live the Arab Spring

        link to jpost.com

      • Chaos4700
        October 10, 2011, 9:24 am

        Funny how the ethnic cleansing happened under Qaddafi’s rule, and yet you’re condemning the democratic movement that de-throned him. Arab dictators have no more ardent supporters than those who also support Israel.

      • DBG
        October 10, 2011, 9:44 am

        you may find ethnic cleansing funny, but I don’t Chaos. it is funny you would say supporter of Israel supported Qaddafi, or Assad. You really are clueless about the region aren’t you?

      • DBG
        October 10, 2011, 11:16 am

        Also learn some history, the Tripoli pogrom happened well before Qaddafi was even ruling Libya (and the creation of Israel) seems like 1945 was a big year for Jew hatred in the Arab world.

      • Shmuel
        October 10, 2011, 12:01 pm

        seems like 1945 was a big year for Jew hatred in the Arab world.

        Without justifying the targeting of innocent people or blaming the victims (and I have heard about the Tripoli riots first hand – from my mother-in-law who lived near the city’s main synagogue at the time and saw things no child should ever see), “Jew hatred” is an insufficient explanation of the events, especially in light of the previous history of relations between Jews and non-Jews in Libya and elsewhere in the Arab world.

        A few other things happened to have been going on at the time, including growing resentment of and resistance to European colonialism. Across the Arab world, indigenous (and especially non-indigenous) Jews were identified with the respective European colonial powers (as was Zionism), and although the generalised violence was wrong, the identification itself was not without basis – particularly in North Africa.

        It’s always difficult to play historical “what if”, and Jews in Algiers or Tripoli (mostly French and Italian-speaking, respectively, and deeply involved in colonial society and administration) would have been identified with the colonial powers in any case, but Zionism – a European colonialist movement, backed by the very same colonial powers – certainly did not help those Jews to convince their non-Jewish neighbours that they were there to stay, and wanted freedom and independence as much as anyone else.

      • eee
        October 10, 2011, 12:31 pm

        Shmuel,
        “the generalised violence was wrong”

        And just like Jewish violence, of any kind both right and wrong, has consequences, so does Arab violence. And the consequence was that Mizrahi Jews became overwhelmingly Zionists and the Arab countries lost their Jewish communities.

        Is your mother in law a Zionist? What are her views about needing a Jewish state?

      • Shmuel
        October 10, 2011, 12:50 pm

        And the consequence was that Mizrahi Jews became overwhelmingly Zionists and the Arab countries lost their Jewish communities.

        Absolutely. It is important to understand the causes of that violence, and attempts to manipulate (or even exacerbate) it, but the direct cause of the Mizrahi exodus was Arab violence and the reasonable fear of such violence (see homingpigeon’s remarks on trying to rationalise Mizrahi flight).

        Is your mother in law a Zionist? What are her views about needing a Jewish state?

        As I’m sure you have guessed, she is an ardent Zionist who believes that the existence of a Jewish state is vital to Jewish survival. As you have also guessed, she cites the anti-Jewish violence she witnessed as a child in Tripoli as the reason she came to this conclusion. Nevertheless, she did not go to Israel immediately after leaving Libya in the ’50s, but lived first in England and then in Italy, moving to Israel (against her better judgement) only in the late ’60s.

  28. Hostage
    October 9, 2011, 9:15 am

    Why on earth would a Jew be in Cairo on Yom kippur knowing full well that it would be impossible to make up a minyan ( minimum 10 men required to hold a service ) unless of course it provided an opportunity to pen an Israel put down.

    I suppose you’d have to contact Tamir Pardo and ask how Mossad agents in Egypt cope with that problem;-) Do you think they would have invited Phil?

  29. Kathleen
    October 10, 2011, 10:26 am

    Intolerance of diverse religious beliefs demonstrates fear and bigotry whether that intolerance takes place in Egypt, Israel or the US.
    Those who are intolerant are clearly not very confident in their own belief system.

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