Goldstone sugarcoats persecution to try to save Israel

Israel/Palestine

Richard Goldstone’s op-ed in the Times today saying that it is “slander” to say that Israel practices “apartheid” is shocking at a number of levels. It is shocking that the eminent judge, who damaged his international reputation last spring by stepping away from a UN report he had co-authored in 2009 that was highly critical of Israel, would now step out as an Israel apologist, employing hackneyed and cookie-cutter arguments about a little democracy contending with hostile neighbors. And it is shocking that a judge with a former reputation for dispassionate examination of the facts would go as far as he has here to misrepresent the reality of the situation to try and make Israel look good.

That is where it is most important to take Goldstone on and do so emphatically—on the facts of the situation. A few of Goldstone’s points:

–Palestinians inside Israel are subject to “some… discrimination” but by and large they are full citizens, getting the identical treatment that Jewish people do, electing members of the Knesset. When they are separate, it is generally because they have separated themselves.

First and foremost this ignores how Israel’s Jewish majority was created in the first place. To say that Palestinians “have separated themselves” is to ignore that they were driven off their land in 1948, and not allowed to return. Those who stayed inside the 1949 armistice lines where kept under martial law for the next 18 years, during which time their homes and land were destroyed and taken by the state. Today, the Israeli government, through the Israel Land Administration and quasi-state organizations like the Jewish National Fund, manages 93% of the land inside the 1967 borders, and that land is reserved for Jews only. So while yes, Jews and Palestinians live very separate lives inside Israel today, it is a gross distortion to claim Palestinians have separated themselves.

And while Goldstone says that the separation of Palestinians is not an official systematic one in Israel, which is highly debatable, he is overlooking a reality, in which Palestinian communities are the last to receive water, in which Bedouin villages are decreed “unrecognized” and then demolished.

The reality today is that there is Jim Crow inside Israel. Yes, Palestinains can vote, but Palestinian parties are never represented in the ruling coalitions–a situation reminiscent of the Democratic Party in our country not seating black delegates to the presidential nominating convention in 1964. The Jewish state requires Jewish leaders; there is no way that a Palestinian Obama would be allowed anywhere near the corridors of policy-making. .

Even in Jim Crow days, America was integrating our armed forces. Palestinians are not required to serve in the army—and with the exception of the Druze, they don’t—because they are officially mistrusted. Another example: when Israeli Yonatan Shapira was asked last year to explain Palestinian status inside Israel, he said that Israel has granted permission to Jewish Israelis to start countless new towns since 1948, but no new Palestinians town has been created.

–Goldstone says that Palestinian conditions in the West Bank are much better than the “cruel” South African apartheid system he was a witness to, where blacks could not go to black beaches, could not marry whites, could not be in white areas without a pass, and yet could bleed to death waiting for a “black” ambulance.

There is no question that the “persecution” of Palestinians as the Goldstone report characterized Palestinian conditions in the West Bank and Gaza, is of a different character than South African persecution of blacks. But this is not to say that it is not as cruel or even crueler.

Palestinians must get permits to travel from the West Bank into occupied Jerusalem and into Israel, and this pass system is the subject of bitter endless discussion—Palestinans will tell you that it is a cruel system, and they are the best judges of that. 1.5 million Gazans cannot get passes to travel outside the boundaries of a strip of land about half the size of New York City due to a policy of collective punishment that the Goldstone Report said was a war crime.

It’s especially ironic that Goldstone uses the example of ambulances in South Africa when there are countless examples of Palestinians suffering under the same conditions. Many Palestinians in the West Bank have bled to death at checkpoints that Goldstone cruelly fails to mention in this op-ed. Millions of Palestinians in the West Bank cannot go to the beach a few miles away, a beach many of their parents grew up going to, because of the pass system. And as for not marrying whites, non-Jews cannot marry Jews under Israeli law, and Palestinian families are legally broken apart by legal classifications that seek to separate West Bank Palestinians from East Jerusalem Palestinians from Gazan Palestinians, all in the name of Israeli security.

It is shocking that Goldstone sugarcoats or fails to mention many conditions that he described as amounting to a crime against humanity—persecution– in his earlier report. For instance, he refers blandly to “disparate treatment on West Bank roads.” But he is talking about Israeli roads built inside occupied Palestine that Palestinians are not allowed to drive on.

The Israeli system of control in the West Bank is all organized around the principle of separation, hafradah in Hebrew, which translates into apartheid in Afrikaans—a principle that the state enforces by granting one group higher legal status than the other. In Israel’s case the separation is enforced so as to preserve a Jewish majority inside non-Palestinian areas. And it is racial: in his recitation of Israeli freedoms, Goldstone fails to mention that more than half a million Jewish settlers who live inside Palestine have the right to vote in Israeli elections, while their non-Jewish neighbors, whose land and water they have taken, are denied the right to vote for representatives of the government that controls their lives. This explicit privileging of 500,000 Jews over the 2.5 million Palestinians they are living alongside is apartheid plain and simple. In the Palestinan case however the borders and governance of the Bantustans have just not yet been established.

People will ask, why did Goldstone shred his reputation? The judge gives a powerful signal about his thinking when he begins his piece by speaking about the threat to the two-state solution from those who would “delegitimize” the state of Israel. The plain truth is that Palestinian are enraged by the conditions we have cited above, and their support for the two-state solution has collapsed after more than 20 years of a ruthless peace process that has only extended the occupation and stolen more of their lands. Few Palestinians see a happy future for them with a Zionist neighbor, and out of solidarity for their suffering, people around the world have undertaken an honest inventory of Zionism’s actions. Many have come to the conclusion that Israel is delegitimizing itself. When Goldstone told the truth in the Gaza report he honored Palestinian voices — and was accused of hurting the peace process and endangering the two-state solution. Now he is denying those same voices, apparently in an effort to revive the two-state solution and save the Jewish state.

But it will be hard to get the toothpaste back in the tube. That is the one good thing about the judge’s latest role. It is so at odds with Goldstone’s earlier statements that it will only draw further attention to the real cause of the end of the two-state solution, the cruel Israeli occupation.

120 Responses

  1. pabelmont
    November 1, 2011, 3:33 pm

    Whether he intended to or not, Goldstone was asking for someone — for YOU — to write this and similar essays. He was damning Israel with faint praises. He was like the USA congresspeople who applauded 98765 times for Bibi and thus showed total subversion, total submission, total degradation for all to see. He makes as if to excuse Israel (like defendants in Stalinist show-trials confessing) and thereby shows (or invites you to show) how really, really bad things are.

    He loves Israel, but he cannot save Israel by himself. He needed you. He should thank you.

    I do thank you.

    • LeaNder
      November 1, 2011, 4:31 pm

      Phil Weiss at his best, powerful. Big thank you to Phil!

      Besides, one of the best comments by you too. I couldn’t agree more.

      • Citizen
        November 1, 2011, 5:26 pm

        Yes, this is a great article by Phil & Adam, the Dynamic Duo. Well written, and covers all the most basic things needed to be addressed by the issue. I’d Twitter it all over the place now, but Twitter limits my tweets as its discretion–I don’t know what their formula is for too many tweets in some block of time per day.

        Now I just need Phil or Adam to resend me my t-shirts in Male not Female size.

      • LeaNder
        November 1, 2011, 6:22 pm

        oops, I just realized. You are right of course Citizen. ;)

        Phil Weiss at his best, powerful. Big thank you to Phil!

        should read:

        Phil and Adam at their very best, speaking for all of us. Big thank you Adam, big thank you Phil.

    • Avi_G.
      November 2, 2011, 2:00 am

      Thanks to both Adam and Phil for writing this compelling and important article.

      And while Goldstone says that the separation of Palestinians is not an official systematic one in Israel, which is highly debatable, he is overlooking a reality, in which Palestinian communities are the last to receive water, in which Bedouin villages are decreed “unrecognized” and then demolished.

      It seems that Goldstone is either unaware or prefers to forget about the countless cases involving so-called Acceptance Committees wherein a non-Jewish family seeking to move into a Jewish town or community must file an application with said committee only to have its application rejected on the ground that the family’s “lifestyle” or “values” do not agree with that community’s.

      Goldstone may have also forgotten about the various decrees issued by Israeli rabbis calling on Jewish women to refrain from forming relationships with Arab men.

      Then of course, there are the countless examples, one of which I cited recently in a post here at Mondoweiss:

      link to mondoweiss.net

      Excerpt (emphasis added):

      Irit: My son was born in Jerusalem and two years after he was born we moved to Ghasaan’s village. In Jerusalem I was the one who had to sign the apartment rental lease. We knew that if the landlord knew that Ghasaan was an Arab he wouldn’t rent us the apartment. I’d sign the lease as if I was the only tenant, and then he would move in with me. Living a pretense and a lie put a lot of pressure on us and we felt uncomfortable and frustrated.

      Grossman published the book in 1993. So if Goldstone were to read the book, he could easily conclude that — at least — as early as 1993, such discrimination existed.

      Of course, some of these examples are of de facto discrimination, but a quick reading of Israeli Basic Law will prove to anyone interested in the subject that de jure discrimination is institutionalized.

      In addition, data provided by the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics prove that through the discriminatory allocation of funding, budgets and resources, for social, municipal or cultural projects, both the government of Israel and private entities in Israel have implemented in place a Jim Crow system; Jewish towns receive four times the funding that non-Jewish (i.e. Palestinian Israelis) receive.

  2. guernica
    November 1, 2011, 3:44 pm

    noam chomsky re: israeli apartheid link to youtube.com

    • Dan Crowther
      November 1, 2011, 4:43 pm

      Chomsky for the Win!

      totally unrelated, but I just have to add my favorite Chomsky quote of all time:

      If you quietly accept and go along no matter what your feelings are, ultimately you internalize what you’re saying, because it’s too hard to believe one thing and say another. I can see it very strikingly in my own background. Go to any elite university and you are usually speaking to very disciplined people, people who have been selected for obedience. And that makes sense. If you’ve resisted the temptation to tell the teacher, “You’re an asshole,” which maybe he or she is, and if you don’t say, “That’s idiotic,” when you get a stupid assignment, you will gradually pass through the required filters. You will end up at a good college and eventually with a good job.

      • Citizen
        November 1, 2011, 5:29 pm

        And you will get to keep that job so long as you maintain that same discretion.

      • seafoid
        November 2, 2011, 8:56 am

        Except when the wind changes your intellectual framework collapses.
        There was more than a hint of the Emperor’s New Clothes yesterday about Nuland.

      • Dan Crowther
        November 2, 2011, 11:07 am

        Yes INDEED.

  3. justicewillprevail
    November 1, 2011, 3:48 pm

    Thankyou for so eloquently skewering and dismembering the tissue of lies and evasions which Goldstone writes. It is clear that people like him, and most of the craven MSM, cannot stomach the thought that the daily cruelty of Israel is beyond their courage to face the truth. It is obviously not ‘slander’ to state the truth. I think whatever you want to call Israel’s practices, they are worse than apartheid. They are the slow, deliberate extinguishing of any possibility of normal Palestinian life, the calculated legal and political strategies to ensure that they have no rights whatsoever (in their own country), and the longterm goal of making it impossible for them to live there. It is slow-motion ethnic cleansing, dispossession and and a collective disregard for any pain and violence that Palestinians suffer at the hands of Israel or their settler/IDF stooges. People waste their time, posing with their clipboards, trying to use metrics to calibrate whether SA apartheid is exactly the same as the Israeli version – with the goal of denying it is – as if that makes it any different for the Palestinian suffering and losses. Call it what you like, it is the most inhumane, diabolical implementation of deliberate cruelty, and you are performing an invaluable service in stating the truth that the establishment is terrified of admitting to.

  4. Dan Crowther
    November 1, 2011, 3:58 pm

    Well said, gentlemen.

    I think the “real cause” of the end of the 2ss is up for debate; I think it is reasonable to wonder if state zionism ever had any intention of taking up a non expansionary policy.

  5. James
    November 1, 2011, 4:07 pm

    thanks phil and adam.. i wish your article in response would get more coverage then goldstones, but i am afraid it still doesn’t work this way yet.. the mainstream media, nyt and wapo two typical examples – get to frame and have the conversation… perhaps you could make this an opinion piece in the nyt in response to goldstones…

    either way, i really like what you have said and am glad you point out how goldstone is so at odds with his previous goldstone report.. i like this quote near the end of your post as i think it hits the nail on the head..

    “Few Palestinians see a happy future for them with a Zionist neighbor, and out of solidarity for their suffering, people around the world have undertaken an honest inventory of Zionism’s actions. Many have come to the conclusion that Israel is de-legitimizing itself.”

  6. American
    November 1, 2011, 4:07 pm

    The only thing worse than a liar is a liar that’s also a hypocrite.
    I don’t think Goldstone is worth wasting ink on…he’s dead to everyone but his fellow zionist hypocrites and liars.

    • Citizen
      November 1, 2011, 5:45 pm

      I agree, American. He’s an old man and doesn’t want to spend his last days not surrounded by those he loves most because he stood up for actual justice & truth in behalf of all mankind. He never had to worry about tribal shunning when he stood up against apartheid S Africa because he had important white backup dissenters. It was comparatively easy to stick up for the underdog, the traditional Jewish tradition in the diaspora where a Jew always finds it best for the Jews to so stick up as institutional thinking. But the game changed when he was asked to be objective about state action when the state was, for the 1st time since nation states began in modern sense of the term, a self-proclaimed Jewish state with Jews as majority. He couldn’t handle it. His time to be really principled, and not merely conveniently principled, came–and he at first rose to the occasion on the strength of his international cred–but that proved too weak when he faced
      the reality of tribal wrath in his personal life. Obama did the same thing with his Cairo Speech, followed by his putting that in the closet and eating crow in the face of Dennis Ross & his own lust for 8 years in top power, max time to really feather his own nest & live well after office.

      Well, Goldstone would at least make a pimple on a Shakespeare tragedy, while Obama wouldn’t even raise that.

  7. Shmuel
    November 1, 2011, 4:46 pm

    I was struck by two ostensibly marginal points in Goldstone’s op-ed.

    First, Goldstone attacks the Palestinian bid for UN membership as “put[ting] hope for any two-state solution under increasing pressure”. This is an untenable position rejected even by many of Israel’s supporters. It is, however, the position taken by the Israeli government (which has called the acceptance of Palestine as a member of UNESCO a “tragedy” – no less) and consequently by organised Jewish communities around the world. It also serves Goldstone as the “timely” background for his attack on the Palestinian solidarity movement – which brings me to the second point.

    It is an unfair and inaccurate slander against Israel, calculated to retard rather than advance peace negotiations.

    Really? Is that the “calculated” intention of those who accuse Israel of the crime of apartheid? “To retard rather than advance peace negotiations”? Talk about slander.

    • seafoid
      November 1, 2011, 4:54 pm

      Israel can’t replicate this process. Goldstone was chosen to lead the UN investigation because of his Jewishness. This is the last time a Jew will be chosen to invesigate Israel. There is just no point.

      • Citizen
        November 1, 2011, 5:49 pm

        Seafoid, I hope your prediction is right, but I wouldn’t count on it.

      • Hostage
        November 2, 2011, 1:59 am

        This is the last time a Jew will be chosen to invesigate Israel. There is just no point.

        That’s very doubtful. By force of habit, legal experts simply filter-out unpersuasive or irrelevant arguments. Goldstone is still respected for the caliber of work that he can deliver, and the legal community ignores these Op-Eds. For example, Goldstone is in charge of vetting the candidates to fill the positions of the ICC Justices whose terms are expiring or who are retiring. He hasn’t been put out to pasture.

      • mig
        November 2, 2011, 4:40 am

        Hostage, do you know this document, from year 1944 :

        link to images.library.wisc.edu

      • Hostage
        November 2, 2011, 3:43 pm

        Yes. The Office of the Historian often devoted entire chapters of the FRUS volume on a region to the treatment of a particular topic like this one. The major developments that took place after 1944 were the Anglo-American Inquiry/Grady-Morrison plan, the discussions on establishment of the UN, conversion off mandates to Trusteeships/UNSCOP/UN Partition Plan/Armistice negotiations.

  8. Richard Witty
    November 1, 2011, 4:51 pm

    The reality is that both INTERPRETATIONS are partially and potentially substantively accurate.

    An important element of the Goldstone report and Goldstone’s subsequent comments is the question of intent.

    To say that Palestinian Israelis decide to not integrate is partially true. Its not solely that they are prohibited, but that they choose to remain in Palestinian communities. Even if 93% of the land is held by the state or Jewish only trusts, is it accurate to say that 93% of the available housing units are segregated?

    I don’t know. I just am skeptical of the use of the statistic.

    In New York, its probably true to say that 7% of the population own 93% of the housing stock. Is that a statement of racism, of apartheid? I know that is different than what Phil is claiming, but also only partially.

    I use the terms prejudicial when referring to within Israel itself, more similar to my hometown in New Rochelle NY (probably similar to Phil’s Baltimore), than to the south. New Rochelle did change.

    And, I use similar terms of “apartheid-like” to describe the relationship of the West Bank to Israel.

    Even in apartheid, there were MANY large black communities that were the same pre and post apartheid. The rights made a difference, but only partially.

    I don’t think that Goldstone is a Zionist hack, as Phil was dared to describe, and went ahead and did.

    I think he sees a changing mid-grey and calls it “light grey”, where as you infer that the same reality from a different vantage, seen as dark grey from that vantage is “black”.

    • pabelmont
      November 1, 2011, 5:15 pm

      RW: You’ve perhaps heard of the new law in Israel that allows certain communities to refuse to allow people they don’t like to buy property in such community? OK, it is Palestinians who are being excluded. THIS IS A STATUTE with full intent to provide for discrimination in housing.

      • Citizen
        November 1, 2011, 5:55 pm

        Forget Witty, pabelmont; he’s trying so hard to make sense I can hear his gears grinding in his vacuum from here–he picks NYC, NY, which is on the list of top 20 US cities with the most disparity in wealth. Hard not to see Witty back in the day arguing easily that “disparate impact” was the litmus test for discrimination, favoring Affirmative Action of every sort. Get the honkies, back then, said AFro Witty. Now, like Goldstone, when Jews have the power in their own state, he applies a different standard. The test of virtue is power.

    • dumvitaestspesest
      November 1, 2011, 5:30 pm

      “I think he sees a changing mid-grey and calls it “light grey”, where as you infer that the same reality from a different vantage, seen as dark grey from that vantage is “black”.”
      Richard, you love to “split hairs ” .
      You have this pecular “ability” to focus on unimportant details, find fault with everything what concerns “the other side”, and then, at the end, you want to be perceived as an objective, independent observator.

    • eGuard
      November 1, 2011, 6:42 pm

      Wasn’t it only today that Mooser supported Witty to give Philip a laugh? And now we get this.

      • Richard Witty
        November 1, 2011, 7:18 pm

        I question the language of Phil’s conclusion, as he questions the language of Goldstone’s conclusion.

        It’s reasonable to do so.

        As I said, I personally use similar language, not identical in the slightest, but more like Phil’s than like Israel’s.

        But, I acknowledge it as my interpretation, my perspective, not my knowledge.

        And, again, the question of goal is critical, both in terms of “solution” (two-state, one-state), but also in terms of degree of punitive orientation in remedy.

        I love the Gandhian perspective of seeking a goal from a moral perspective, but also being as or even more intent to retain one’s morality in the manner of seeking the goal. The choice of goal is not enough to me.

        And, I definitely note that in a war, that logic is a hindrance. Maybe some emotionally very mature warrior can fight full out while remembering his/her full empathy with his opponent. Most can’t. Most have to dehumanize the other to fight a war, whether the war is one of bombs and bullets or of words.

      • Chaos4700
        November 1, 2011, 10:48 pm

        It is NOT reasonable to cover up deliberate murder, Witty. Of CHILDREN.

  9. Richard Witty
    November 1, 2011, 4:54 pm

    This is one case in which I think your headline is representative.

    In that I do believe that Goldstone is attempting to preserve Israel, and is committed to the two-state approach (laudably in my opinion).

    • Citizen
      November 1, 2011, 6:00 pm

      I agree, he’s trying to save Israel as Israel at any cost to the rest of humanity–like Samson tried.

    • Chaos4700
      November 1, 2011, 8:19 pm

      He’s committed to the two state approach by opposing Palestinian statehood? Really.

      • Am_America
        November 2, 2011, 9:41 am

        Where did Goldstone opposed statehood? you didn’t read the op-ed did ya?

      • Chaos4700
        November 2, 2011, 10:04 am

        By failing to give Palestinians equal access to human rights, Goldstone is effectively denying them statehood. How are Palestinians supposed to build a state when people like Goldstone pretend like there is no Occupation and there are no pogroms? Why are we talking about “building” Palestine anyway, it’s always existed in the modern historical context.

        There is a two-state solution. It’s driving Israeli invaders out of Palestine. Goldstone doesn’t want that, clearly. He doesn’t oppose the West Bank settlements and he doesn’t oppose the occupation of Gaza by the IDF.

  10. tod
    November 1, 2011, 5:30 pm

    You will not like this, and probably not approve my comment, but the real question is:
    “Why would you trust any Jew about Palestine?”

    I’m not trolling, but really, besides the fact that Jews are harder to label as anti-Semites, and taking into account that at some point, a choice may be required to be made between the truth and your own people, why should anyone trust anything that a Jew says regarding this subject? Or for that matter why would a Jew think it has the moral standing to comment on this? What is the point when any Jew will flip regarding this issue? Goldstone flipped when the community rejected him, how about the rest of you?

    • Philip Weiss
      November 1, 2011, 6:19 pm

      why do you trust this website? many jews write on this website. most all of them are very clear about their attachments or non attachments to zionism, including even some zionists among the commenters

      • tod
        November 1, 2011, 6:32 pm

        I don’t say I don’t trust it, or that I don’t like it, I say there may be a point where things could change. Human nature really, no conspiracy here. :)

        My point remains though, there are like 5 articles commenting on Goldstone’s flip-flop, but not one discussing the obvious:
        1. Goldstone flip-flopped because he’s Jewish
        2. Why was a Jew chosen in the first place? I mean in sports the referee must be neutral, but in international politics every time Israel is in the spotlight the world just can’t find a non-Jew to make an investigation. I’m sure Mr. Goldstone’s expertise could have been used somewhere else, and also that there are a lot of upstanding personalities that could have led that report.

      • eljay
        November 2, 2011, 8:22 am

        >> … why would a Jew think it has the moral standing to comment …

        Not “it”. He, or he/she.

        >> … there are like 5 articles commenting on Goldstone’s flip-flop, but not one discussing the obvious:
        >> 1. Goldstone flip-flopped because he’s Jewish
        >> 2. Why was a Jew chosen in the first place?

        I believe both points have been amply addressed:
        1. Goldstone flip-flopped because he was pressured to side w/ tribe instead of upholding facts / morality / justice. (If you have evidence that he wasn’t pressured – that, in fact, he chose to flip-flop simply because he’s Jewish – please feel free to present it.)
        2. At a minimum, for reasons of politics and credibility.

      • Chaos4700
        November 1, 2011, 8:20 pm

        You made Goldstone the celebrity he is today, Phil. I trust your heart. Do I trust your opinion?

    • Donald
      November 1, 2011, 6:42 pm

      Worse than that, tod–Jews are human and I for one am never very easy in my mind about any member of that species. Untrustworthy bastards.

      • tod
        November 2, 2011, 3:49 am

        Very good point Donald :))
        But that doesn’t change the fact that some people are more involved in this than others.

      • Donald
        November 2, 2011, 7:33 am

        Yeah, but you will find people of all sorts holding indefensible moral positions on one issue or another because of some perceived self-interest or ideology. There’s nothing particularly unusual about the way some American Jews irrationally defend Israel–it’s similar to the way many Southern whites tried to make the racial history of the South seem a lot less ugly than it really was. One thing that is funny to me is how Richard objects so strongly to my comparison of American Jewish defenders of Israel to the racist white Southerners I grew up knowing. Obviously Richard thinks it an outrage to have “his people” compared to “my people”. My point is that there is nothing particularly special, either good or bad, about any group of people. Racism and narcissism are found in all groups.

  11. libra
    November 1, 2011, 5:44 pm

    “But it will be hard to get the toothpaste back in the tube.”

    A great H.R. ‘Bob’ Haldeman one-liner if I’m not mistaken. True for Watergate and surely just as relevant today, not just regards Goldstone but because it so graphically sums up how the Zionist settlers themselves have screwed “the Jewish state”.

  12. dbroncos
    November 1, 2011, 6:16 pm

    “But it will be hard to get the toothpaste back in the tube. That is the one good thing about the judge’s latest role. It is so at odds with Goldstone’s earlier statements that it will only draw further attention to the real cause of the end of the two-state solution, the cruel Israeli occupation.”

    Well put, Phil and Adam. I wonder if Goldstone’s contradictions are lost on the NYT. Has anyone on that paper’s editorial staff actually read the report with his name on it? Goldstone’s out and out reversal deserves attention. I hope he’ll agree to be be interviewed about his late breaking epiphany: Israel first – right or wrong.

  13. proudzionist777
    November 1, 2011, 6:29 pm

    So Americans Philip and Adam, who never lived a day in the Jim Crow South, much less Apartheid South Africa, know more about apartheid than South African Judge Goldstone.

    Right.

    • dimadok
      November 1, 2011, 9:31 pm

      They must have that special feeling for injustice. I wonder where I can get one?

      • Mooser
        November 30, 2011, 3:26 pm

        “They must have that special feeling for injustice. I wonder where I can get one?

        Yes, import restrictions can be very tough in Israel. I’ve heard they don’t allow that into the country at all.

    • Cliff
      November 1, 2011, 9:39 pm

      Judge Goldstone wrote an OP-ED, not a substantiated critique.

      He has finally said something you clowns agree with, so you’re jumping for joy.

      He says all of this, years after the Gaza massacre and after he was vilified by Zionist schizos in the Jewish community, like you guys.

      John Dugard disagrees with him. Desmond Tutu disagrees. The HRSC does as well.

      Both of you tools, and hophmi have not read the HRSC report and have not provided any rebuttal beyond your whiny hasbara garbage.

      • Chaos4700
        November 1, 2011, 10:35 pm

        Look who we’re dealing with here, Cliff. Three words: invasion of Iraq. (Or alternatively: Operation Cast Lead.) Facts don’t even matter to these neoconservative war mongers.

      • dimadok
        November 1, 2011, 10:42 pm

        Desmond Tutu can have his opinions but it doesn’t make him a saint.
        Here one quote form Dr. Martin L. King :
        “Anti-semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

        “Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.”

        Read it every time you speak of Desmond Tutu and his kind.

      • edwin
        November 1, 2011, 11:06 pm

        dimadok – I see you haven’t bothered to provide a source for this “quote”.

        Facts don’t even matter to these neoconservative war mongers.

        Why bother with facts when you can make up your own.

      • Am_America
        November 1, 2011, 11:08 pm

        If King were alive today the ilk on Mondoweiss would be cursing his name. They are all in when it comes to anti-Israel, nothing else matters.

      • PeaceThroughJustice
        November 1, 2011, 11:11 pm

        “Here one quote form Dr. Martin L. King: …”

        Oh please.

        The Use and Abuse of Martin Luther King Jr. by Israel’s Apologists
        link to counterpunch.org

        PS Dimadok, assuming you actually believed that was an actual quotation (which I’m prepared to assume on your behalf), now that you know, are you at all curious HOW such lies first get circulated? I mean it’s not a matter of misunderstanding or mis-interpretation. Someone had to actually sit down and concoct it, right? Who do you think it might have been?

      • Cliff
        November 2, 2011, 3:00 am

        MLK never supported Israel and never made the quote above. There is NO source for the quote.

        We have heard hasbarats like you try to tie him to Zionism many times before. Do you think this is a new argument to us?

      • Am_America
        November 2, 2011, 9:52 am

        The speech was March 25, 1968 at a rabbinical conference in the Catskills.

        Revisionist history doesn’t honor the life of MLK, it makes you guys look very, very bad.

      • Cliff
        November 2, 2011, 11:25 am

        This isn’t revisionist history on our part. It’s revisionist history on YOUR part, because MLK never equated criticism of Israel to antisemitism and the line Dim quoted is a farce.

        Rabid Zionist watchdog group with Orwellian name:
        link to camera.org

        EI rebuttal:
        link to electronicintifada.net

        Read it and weep ZioBot.

        No member of the King family has ever confirmed the farce.

        All you have are the words of, *drumroll*, ZIONISTS saying he issued the equivocation.

        You will never find a statement by the MLK estate that confirms the quote.

      • annie
        November 2, 2011, 11:28 am

        this has been debunked enough times to sink a ship

      • PeaceThroughJustice
        November 2, 2011, 11:33 am

        At a rabbinical conference in the Catskills? :)

        Those interested in learning more about the techniques of hasbara can read here–
        “My Father Once Heard MLK Denounce Israel”
        link to thehasbarabuster.blogspot.com

      • Cliff
        November 2, 2011, 11:34 am

        Oh and here is Coretta Scott King supporting Mubarak Awad, who advocated non-violent resistance to that racist apartheid State:

        link to nytimes.com

        Several leading Americans wrote to Mr. Shamir urging him to relent in the Awad case. Last month, Coretta Scott King, widow of the slain civil rights leader, wrote saying: ”Having met Mr. Awad I can attest to his strong personal commitment to Martin Luther King Jr.’s principle of nonviolence as a way of resolving conflicts.”

      • eljay
        November 2, 2011, 11:55 am

        >> Those interested in learning more about the techniques of hasbara can read here–
        >> “My Father Once Heard MLK Denounce Israel”

        Reminds me of this:
        >> RW: What did Hamas communicate to Israel by escalating shelling? That it intended war. That, combined with published statements* by Hamas militia that stated they “desired” that Israel invade so that they could wipe the streets with Israeli blood.

        (where “published” = “non-existent”)

      • annie
        November 2, 2011, 12:05 pm

        The evidence being so flimsy, a few years ago someone had the brilliant idea of manufacturing a complementary “Letter to an anti-Zionist friend” by King, which “appeared” in an August, 1967 edition of Saturday Review, and “ratified” King’s views on Zionism and antisemitism. Only, those people weren’t properly trained on how these things are done. They provided a detail that gave them away; Tim Wise took the trouble to examine all issues of Saturday Review from August, 1967, and found not a hint of a King letter to anyone. Lipset had been much wiser, giving what seemed to be a lot of information on the background to the King quote, but without providing a single concrete, verifiable detail.

        And thus are created the Zionist talking points…….

        So, what do you say? Do you believe Lipset or my father? Or me? Or none?

      • Hostage
        November 2, 2011, 5:52 pm

        More false hasbara talking points:

        The Israeli Navy intends to radio the ships and offer them to dock and unload equipment at the port in Ashdod or in an Egyptian port. A senior defense official said Wednesday that “in any case, we will not let them reach Gaza. The naval blockade is legal and was even recently approved by the Palmer committee. This is an incident that is intended mainly to draw media attention,” he said.

        link to haaretz.com

        The Palmer Committee had no mandate or authority to approve any blockade and it didn’t even have the wherewithal to conduct its own independent investigation. So, it didn’t even rise to the level of a basic UN fact finding mission report. In fact, it deliberately ignored several of them, including the Goldstone report, which said the blockade and closure were a crime against humanity and that a Court could reasonably conclude that the crime of persecution had been committed.

  14. lobewyper
    November 1, 2011, 6:48 pm

    Great piece P & A!

    Can somebody tell me why the Times doesn’t permit comments on its op eds, (at least, this one)???

  15. Avi_G.
    November 1, 2011, 7:00 pm

    This proves that Zionism has such a grip on Judaism that adherents must choose between full fledged support for Zionism, or renouncing Judaism once and for all. It’s a do-or-die situation. So in the coming years, the average Jew is going to have to choose between justice for Palestinians or his or her own personal identity as that identity cannot be maintained outside of the ‘community’, as demonstrated by the Goldstone debacle.

    • Richard Witty
      November 1, 2011, 7:20 pm

      It proves that Goldstone changed his mind on objective concerns, and probably also resented being used as a radical cause celebre in a way that violated his personal principles.

      • Cliff
        November 1, 2011, 7:49 pm

        It proves Goldstone was subjected to harassment by Zionist schizophrenics.

        His comments after the report have been unconvincing and purely (OBVIOUSLY) ideological.

        Not substantiated. Not factual.

        The notion that he is afraid of anti-Zionists is a JOKE.

        Anti-Zionists did not call him a KAPO! Or a moser or whatever the hell disgusting words, Dershowitz used.

        It was the Zionist Jewish community that harassed him, NOT the anti-Zionist Jews.

        Get that through your pea-sized brain, Witty.

      • Donald
        November 1, 2011, 9:24 pm

        “Get that through your pea-sized brain”

        Richard isn’t interested in the fact that Goldstone’s post is a whitewash of Israel’s apartheid-like policies. He only cares that we say Goldstone is “sincere” and respect him for his alleged sincerity. For Richard, the important issue is always about sparing the feelings of people that he identifies with. Whether Goldstone’s post is true or false is irrelevant to him.

        He’s a waste of time, except when he inspires someone like Hostage to type up another short history lesson.

      • justicewillprevail
        November 1, 2011, 8:09 pm

        In your ever so humble opinion. There is another explanation.

      • Chaos4700
        November 1, 2011, 8:16 pm

        By “objective concerns,” you mean based on IDF press releases after the fact, right? Because that’s all I recall him telling us his about-face was based on.

      • Richard Witty
        November 1, 2011, 10:24 pm

        Please stop the personal insults “pea sized brain”.

        It diminishes your argument to anyone, and diminishes the validity of the site.

        I think Goldstone does whitewash the conditions in Israel and Palestine, Donald. Thats the significance of me using different language when I describe the relationships.

        It still does not diminish the offensiveness of using him for promotion of the veracity of the committee, and then later for veracity of Phil and Adam’s book, then to be castigated for changing his mind, or merely publicly clarifying his views.

        I agreed with his take on Cast Lead, that the vehement interpretations of “war crime” bore review, given awareness of evidence that would possibly revise the admissable scope of Israeli actions.

      • Chaos4700
        November 1, 2011, 10:46 pm

        A) Why are you too addled to find the right reply button?

        B)

        then to be castigated for changing his mind

        Your own words, Witty. Goldstone changed his story!

      • Donald
        November 2, 2011, 8:02 am

        “I think Goldstone does whitewash the conditions in Israel and Palestine, Donald.”

        Richard again demonstrates what matters to him. The fact that people here praised Goldstone when he was doing the right thing and taking a stand that made him unpopular with his own community and then harshly criticize Goldstone when he starts distorting the truth is seen by Richard as people “using” Goldstone. Whether people show respect to Goldstone is far more important to Richard than Goldstone’s distortions of the facts –this is because Richard identifies with Goldstone.

        Richard also doesn’t care about whether Goldstone’s retraction made any logical sense–all that matters is that he and Goldstone agree that Israeli actions should not be placed in the same category as those committed by evil Arabs.

        That’s the larger point that transcends Richard’s personal narcissism. There’s no controversy at all in the US about whether Arabs are capable of committing atrocities or anti-semitism or other crimes. But let some knowledge of Israeli thuggishness seep into the public awareness and the NYT carries a fatuous piece of nonsense that clears Israel of the charge of apartheid without ever once mentioning the settlement policies or anything else that Phil and Adam discuss above.
        Israel is a sacred cow–if they and their supporters look rather silly in the story about UNESCO, then the NYT has to carry a foolish denial of its crimes by Goldstone.

      • Chaos4700
        November 2, 2011, 9:19 am

        Not a sacred cow, Donald. Israel is a golden calf.

  16. lysias
    November 1, 2011, 7:01 pm

    Yes, Palestinains can vote, but Palestinian parties are never represented in the ruling coalitions–a situation reminiscent of the Democratic Party in our country not seating black delegates to the presidential nominating convention in 1964.

    That means that they have less political power than the Irish had in the United Kingdom in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when Irish Catholics did elect many members of Parliament and, because those members were often the balance of power that determined which of the two major parties would come to power in Westminster, they had real political power.

  17. dimadok
    November 1, 2011, 7:16 pm

    When it comes to damage control or shattered ideals anything goes-right Phil and Adam?
    Here some facts and not some broad statements:
    Ahmad Tibi, member of Knesset, deputy speaker of Knesset. I personally don’t like the guy but that’s is what democracy is all about.
    Rajeb Majadele- first Arab minister
    Majalli Wahabi -briefly acting as the PRESIDENT of Israel.
    Abdulmalik Dehamshe- Deputy Knesset speaker
    Nawaf Massalha-Deputy Minister, Deputy Knesset speaker
    Abdel Rahman Zuabi, a secular Muslim from northern Israel, was the first Arab on the Israeli Supreme Court, serving a 9-month term in 1999. In 2004, Salim Joubran, a Christian Arab from Haifa descended from Lebanese Maronites, became the first Arab to hold a permanent appointment on the Court.
    Arab Generals in the IDF include Major General Hussain Fares, commander of Israel’s border police, and Major General Yosef Mishlav, head of the Home Front Command and current Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories. Other high ranking officers in the IDF include Lieutenant Colonel Amos Yarkoni (born Abd el-Majid Hidr/ عبد الماجد حيدر) from the Bedouin community, a legendary officer in the Israel Defense Forces and one of six Israeli Arabs to have received the IDF’s third highest decoration, the Medal of Distinguished Service.
    And speaking about Jewish National Fund:
    In 2007, Ra’adi Sfori became the first Arab citizen of Israel to be elected as a JNF director, over a petition against his appointment.

    A quote from Ishmael Khaldi :”I am a proud Israeli – along with many other non-Jewish Israelis such as Druze, Bahai, Bedouin, Christians and Muslims, who live in one of the most culturally diversified societies and the only true democracy in the Middle East. Like America, Israeli society is far from perfect, but let us deal honestly. By any yardstick you choose — educational opportunity, economic development, women and gay’s rights, freedom of speech and assembly, legislative representation — Israel’s minorities fare far better than any other country in the Middle East”

    Make your homework first.

    • Chaos4700
      November 1, 2011, 8:17 pm

      So? Israel has its own Buffalo Soldiers and Tuskegee Airman. What do you want, a cookie?

      • dimadok
        November 1, 2011, 9:30 pm

        What no Holocaust comments today?

      • annie
        November 1, 2011, 9:44 pm

        i think hophmi made one earlier. you could check his archives. no, i recall now it was eee.

      • Chaos4700
        November 1, 2011, 10:36 pm

        I’m sorry, you’ll have to scoff the Holocaust in some other thread this time, dimmy-boy.

      • Am_America
        November 1, 2011, 11:04 pm

        kinda like you scoffed the Buffalo Soldiers and Tuskegee Airman above? you are disrespecting American heroes to try and prove a moronic point.

      • Donald
        November 2, 2011, 8:05 am

        “kinda like you scoffed the Buffalo Soldiers and Tuskegee Airman above? you are disrespecting American heroes to try and prove a moronic point.”

        Somehow I suspect those heroes would agree with Chaos that one couldn’t use their example to whitewash America’s treatment of black people. Obviously the point went over your head, which is why you thought it moronic.

      • Chaos4700
        November 2, 2011, 9:03 am

        It didn’t go over AM_Radio’s head, Donald, it’s just that he cares about African Americans as much as he cares about Palestinians. About any non-white person, I expect.

    • justicewillprevail
      November 1, 2011, 8:28 pm

      Ishmael Kaldi, ‘advisor’ to Lieberman, the openly racist and neo-fascist FM. So he’s a reliable witness then. And if you are so proud of the Bedouin individuals in your employ, why are you treating them collectively like Palestinians ?
      The Prawer Report calls for the forced removal of between 30,000 (UN estimate) and 45,000 Bedouin (Bedouin representatives). Claiming that these villages do not meet “standards” (which curiously do not apply to Jewish Kibbutzes, towns or farms) the Israeli government seeks to open up the Negev to further Jewish settlement and development. In addition, there is a second proposal to forcibly relocate more than 2,000 Bedouin whose 20 villages happen to be in the way of illegal Israeli settlement expansion in the hills east of Jerusalem. According to the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem, this plan, which could be implemented as early as next year, is but the first stage of a six year process that could ultimately displace another 27,000 Bedouin from the area. The Bedouin have called these proposals “a declaration of war” and are mobilizing to fight back. Mr. Khaldi obviously does not speak for them, but chooses to polish the image of their oppressors.

      • dimadok
        November 1, 2011, 9:20 pm

        Just a small advice to you- do not call Bedouin an Arab. Just don’t- they take it as an offense. Being advisor to Lieberman doesnt change the fact that that person is Arab. Did any of Buffalo soldiers made a general? Any Black representatives in US state department during Jim Crow, Supreme Justices, Vice Presidents?
        Also I thought we’ve comparing South Africa and Israel.
        Compairing kibbutz and Bedouin village is just silly and makes you look strange- these are two completely different ways of life and my guess you’ve never visited neither.

    • Inanna
      November 1, 2011, 8:41 pm

      What you’ve shown is tokenism and the efforts of a few to make it in an unjust society. That existed even in the US under Jim Crow and you had some African-Americans who, through their merit and other reasons, managed to break through the systemic and institutional discrimination against them and achieve high office.

    • andrew r
      November 1, 2011, 9:15 pm

      dimadok, here’s a list of individuals you should know about:

      Azmi Bishara – Former Knesset member who was charged with ‘support for a terrorist organization’ after visiting Syria; yet Lisa Goldmann has not been in trouble for using her second passport to visit Lebanon.

      Mahmoud Darwish – Harassed by the military governor of the Galilee for reciting poetry until he left Israel

      Adel Kaadan – Could move to a Jewish town only after ten years of litigation

      Fatina and Ahmed Zabeidat – Needed a high court order to obtain a plot of land in Rakefet

      Manhash al-Baniyat – Bedouin tracker whose house in an unrecognized village was demolished after he was KIA.

      And the fact that several Israeli Palestinians attained what sound like impressive positions on paper doesn’t mitigate a few facts: The High Court of Justice is less powerful than the army which can blow off its rulings; The president of Israel doesn’t have any formal powers (briefly acting, like, wow); Majadele could only join the cabinet as a member of the Labor party; As someone pointed out here, Arab parties have never been represented in the cabinet and the cabinet has the real power to decide if Israel goes to war; Most of all, no one is impressed that the IDF use Bedouin as trackers and border guards. It’s not uncommon for a regime that persecutes a certain group to recruit some agents from that group (See below).

      Saddam’s deputy prime minister was Tariq Aziz, a Chaldean Christian. Would you seriously believe Saddam did not persecute Iraqi Christians on that information alone? The Iraqi army under Saddam also had Shiite officers, so how can you possibly argue Saddam had anything against Shiites?

      The Bahraini ambassador to the US is a Jewish woman. Are you going to start praising Bahrain’s treatment of minorities now?

      You want to talk about minority rights? The current defense minister of Syria is a Greek Orthodox.

      So even for the sake of argument you pretend Israel is a liberal democracy with an Arab minority instead of a colonial-settler state ruled by a minority that has forcibly displaced and disenfranchised the majority, a handful of people in what sound like important stations does not tell you how the minority really fares under the government.

      • dimadok
        November 1, 2011, 9:28 pm

        The mere fact that Omar Bargouti goes to the same university as I did, while being foreign-born Palestinian citizen should tell you a lot. I don’t claim that Israel is the heaven on earth but it has it’s merits even when compared to some European countries. As for Azmi Bishara- I bring you MK Hanin Zoabi, who was fined and reprimanded but for some reason has yet to flee the country. Perhaps Bishara had his concerns.

      • Chaos4700
        November 1, 2011, 10:40 pm

        From Mr. Barghouti’s wikipedia page, referencing PACBI:

        PACBI’s statement also adds that “Nelson Mandela studied law at the Witwatersrand University in Johannesburg, one of the most notorious apartheid institutes then. Similarly, leaders of the anti-colonial resistance movement in India and Egypt, among many other countries, received their education at British universities at the height of the colonial era.”

        Gee, nope no similarity to apartheid South Africa whatsoever.

      • dimadok
        November 1, 2011, 10:51 pm

        Completing a degree through correspondence – are you serious? Or just throwing whatever sticks?
        link to nelsonmandelas.com

        1939
        While there he completes his BA through correspondence and studies Law at the University of Witwatersrand

      • Am_America
        November 1, 2011, 11:03 pm

        What? Barghouti is trying to pull one over on those who will believe any nonsense; and you bought it hook, line, and sinker. he studied at Witwatersrand before apartheid was law in SA, so your comparison is ridiculous. You basically just contradicted your entire Israel is an apartheid government argument because Mandela studied law BEFORE there was even apartheid.

      • Chaos4700
        November 2, 2011, 9:07 am

        Ooooh, before there was apartheid? So let me get this straight, there was a time in the past when white Dutch immigrants were living in harmony with native Africans and not oppressing and exploiting them? And then abruptly, apartheid came along and that was just one dark spot on the otherwise pure record of European colonialism?

        Whitewashing doesn’t get any more cover than this, folks.

      • mig
        November 2, 2011, 9:11 am

        Do you think that racial discrimination started in SA 1948 ?

        link to en.wikipedia.org

      • Hostage
        November 2, 2011, 5:23 pm

        Do you think that racial discrimination started in SA 1948 ?

        No, that’s when the representative of India raised the issue of South Africa’s treatment of Indians living there in the United Nations. Oddly enough, the problems in South Africa have been addressed, and the UN has moved-on to the problem of de facto apartheid against other groups including India’s “Untouchables”.

      • Avi_G.
        November 1, 2011, 11:58 pm

        Mahmoud Darwish – Harassed by the military governor of the Galilee for reciting poetry until he left Israel

        The late Mr. Darwish, may he rest in peace, was placed under house arrest for about twenty years.

        And despite being born in the Galilee, an Israeli court did not allow him to return to his village.

        His crime was his poetry.

        You see, poetry, like theater and other cultural venues, are severely punished by Israel.

      • proudzionist777
        November 2, 2011, 7:11 am

        Left Israel and joined the P.L.O.

      • Chaos4700
        November 2, 2011, 9:08 am

        And? The Palestinians need liberation from your oppression. Are you going to argue otherwise?

  18. petersz
    November 1, 2011, 7:36 pm

    Ali Abunimah in Electronic Intifada:-
    “But if anything, Goldstone’s shameless pandering to Israel only adds credibility to his earlier work: if someone so anxious to defend Israel in spite of the facts could not even cover up its atrocious crimes in Gaza, then indeed there is a case for Israel’s war criminal leaders to answer and pursuing them must not stop until they are brought to justice”.
    The Palestinians should join all the other 18 UN organizations especially the ICC, to isolate and expose the Israelis as much as possible.

  19. Saleema
    November 1, 2011, 7:55 pm

    Maybe he’s trying to save his soul so G-d would let him in Heaven.

  20. proudzionist777
    November 1, 2011, 8:35 pm

    Maybe Goldstone finally got around to reading the Hamas websites where Hamas claimed that over half the Cast Lead fatalities were card carrying ‘resistance’ fighters.

    • Cliff
      November 1, 2011, 8:58 pm

      IDF service is mandatory. How many un-uniformed soldiers are in Israel? How many could be bombed, then called card-carrying IDF soldiers?

      • dimadok
        November 1, 2011, 9:21 pm

        Including future conscripts- say starting from age of 2 month…. Good one.

      • Chaos4700
        November 1, 2011, 10:45 pm

        That’s your logic for slaughtering Palestinian children.

      • Cliff
        November 2, 2011, 3:06 am

        dimadok,

        Stop being an idiot.

        Read proudzionist’s original comment. He is saying that a portion of the people killed in the Gaza massacre were Hamas fighters.

        For example, the police officers that Israel killed.

        When Norman Finkelstein went to Gaza he spoke about how some of the Hamas members he met were just kids. Not literally kids, but young adults who were looking for some purpose.

        So, I think many people sign up for Hamas but are also police officers, farmers, teachers, etc. It’s like how people are in the IDF but are also members of Israeli civil society.

        Again, the police graduation bombing was a good example of how Israel killed Hamas members who weren’t taking part in the hostilities.

        So, I simply posed a question to your fellow tin-foil-hat-wearing brother-in-stupidity, proudzionist.

        I didn’t say it would be justified to kill an Israeli who wasn’t taking part in hostilities as an IDF soldier.

      • Hostage
        November 2, 2011, 3:55 am

        He is saying that a portion of the people killed in the Gaza massacre were Hamas fighters. For example, the police officers that Israel killed.

        If you are going to kill them because of the bogus claim that they’re members of an organized uniformed militia, then you have to treat them as POWs whenever they are wounded, captured, or otherwise out of the fight in accordance with the Third Geneva Convention of 1949. Israel has never done that. The members of the civilian police force attending a ceremonial function are simply not a valid military objective.

      • proudzionist777
        November 1, 2011, 10:21 pm

        Cliff said: “How many un-uniformed soldiers are in Israel?”

        Sorry buddy. Couldn’t tell you.

        Cliff said: “How many could be bombed, then called card-carrying IDF soldiers?”

        Sorry. Cliff. I couldn’t follow you.

      • Chaos4700
        November 1, 2011, 10:44 pm

        Probably less than the number of Israelis with EU passport forgeries planning on smothering Arabs with pillows abroad? Give us a ballpark figure.

    • Avi_G.
      November 2, 2011, 12:03 am

      proudzionist777 November 1, 2011 at 8:35 pm

      Maybe Goldstone finally got around to reading the Hamas websites where Hamas claimed that over half the Cast Lead fatalities were card carrying ‘resistance’ fighters.

      They don’t carry cards. They carry in their blood a special enzyme like The Chosen People do. I thought they taught you that in Hasbara school, or your local Yeshiva. They didn’t?

  21. proudzionist777
    November 1, 2011, 8:39 pm

    And here’s the cite.

    link to haaretz.com

    • Donald
      November 1, 2011, 9:15 pm

      Police cadets are not military targets and calling someone a “militant” is not a reason for killing them. Perhaps you defend the right of Palestinians to attack “militant” supporters of Zionism, or “militant” members of the Likud Party or “militant” settlers. And it is in Hamas’s own political interests to claim that they are supported by the vast majority of the people in Gaza, so one should take with a grain of salt claims that so many people were their members.

      • proudzionist777
        November 1, 2011, 10:33 pm

        Sorry to burst your bubble, but another Hamas representative named Abu Khaled who, in an interview published by The Christian Science Monitor on Nov. 1, 2010, confirmed that “two thirds of Hamas policemen are police by day and Al Qassam [military wing of Hamas] by night”.

      • Chaos4700
        November 1, 2011, 10:43 pm

        So every Israeli who has served in the IDF is a military target, too, by the same double-edge sword? That’s useful information.

      • Donald
        November 2, 2011, 7:18 am

        Gosh, proudzionist, when do they sleep? Do they acquire some sort of superpower by virtue of their membership? Playing the role of mild-mannered cop in the daytime, they morph into superterrorists by night…

        Anyway, as Chaos said, you keep giving justifications for any Palestinian who wants to kill an Israeli who is walking around in civilian clothing, but is a member of the IDF or any other Israeli agency that might be responsible for capturing or killing Palestinians . All “militants”, you know. Sorry to burst your bubble, but your logic is the same as those Palestinians who support suicide bombing.

    • Sumud
      November 2, 2011, 7:43 am

      And here’s the cite.

      Except the source you provide does *not* back up your claim, not by long shot. Hamas consist of three wings:

      1. political
      2. social welfare
      3. militants

      The militants are by far the smallest part of the organisation. The Haaretz article has Hamas official stating the number of Hamas militants killed was 2-300, not 700.

      And even if it did [support your claim], you still have 300+ children in Gaza slaughtered by the IDF, and for what? Because of rockets from Gaza that have killed 25 Israelis in a decade, while motor accidents have killed about 4,000 Israelis in the same time…?

      How about the fact that for every Israeli minor killed in the last decade Israel has killed more than 10 Palestinian children. Why is it that zionists so love to kill children?

      At least Palestinians are trying to throw off an oppressor, however revolting the tactics that were employed during the 2nd intifadah. Israel has no such noble cause; it kills and kills and kills merely for real estate. Disgusting.

      AND, Israel killed nearly twice as many Palestinians inGaza in 22 days as Israelis killed in 15 years of suicide bombings. Another interesting factoid for you proudzionist777. A decent person wouldn’t be proud of that.

  22. DICKERSON3870
    November 1, 2011, 10:55 pm

    RE: “People will ask, why did Goldstone shred his reputation?” ~ Captains Weiss & Horowitz

    SEE: Sinning against Zionism: Traitor to Country, by William A. Cook , Dissident Voice, 4/21/11

    Hell is where many false commitments must be unlearned. — Ricardo J. Quinones, Dante Alighieri

    (excerpt) Richard Goldstone’s journey from Justice to Sinner represents the spiritual act of dying in the Zionist world. By recanting his own report he has attempted to break the bonds that cast him into the sufferings in Caina, Antenora, and Judecca where, in Dante’s Inferno, those treacherous to their own, are removed from the light and warmth of their kin, their country, and their masters and suffer eternal damnation in the remorseless dead center of the ice in the most bottomless circle of Hell. Fortunately, Goldstone like Dante can learn that he has, in his journey, aligned himself with many false gods and many false attachments ignoring on the way the elementary truths that bind humankind ineluctably in one race in a bond of human grace.
    The Zionist world needs no Hell since it heeds no conscience. It exists on one foundation, a solid block of ice that freezes the soul of all who bear allegiance to its creed of absolute obedience, an ancient form of tribal slavery bound by fear that shackles the soul, by isolation that instills despair, by humiliation that corrodes self, and by victimhood that bonds the tribe in self-perpetuating agony. It is in this sense Medieval, a remnant of the inquisitorial mind that harbored no dissent, gave no credence to personal freedom, and obligated all to one monolithic understanding of commitment to the powers that control…

    ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to dissidentvoice.org

  23. yourstruly
    November 1, 2011, 11:42 pm

    sugar-coating persection in a in an effort to save israel?

    exactly opposite to what’ll get the job done

    peace on earth and goodwill to all living beings

    turnabout

    opening move?

    that occupy the world bring forth a just and peaceful settlement to the palestine/israel conflict

    but how?

    that beginning tomorrow night at the multitude and diversity of general assemblies in sessio throughout the world

    that finding an answer to the p/i conflict be taken up as the movement’s opening move

    rationale?

    one victory being all it’ll take

    but why the p/i conflict and not some other equally compelling cause?

    one victory

    what it’ll take

    what with conditions being just right

    not to mention stars being perfectly alighned

    about which we as yet have no control

    whereas in the matter of conditions being just right?

    human readiness and endeavor is the ultimate decider

    not counting on the pie-in-the-sky?

    about as much as for the man in the moon

  24. Hostage
    November 2, 2011, 2:35 am

    There is no question that the “persecution” of Palestinians as the Goldstone report characterized Palestinian conditions in the West Bank and Gaza, is of a different character than South African persecution of blacks.

    Hold on a minute. Some of us may “miss seeing the forest for the trees”. The choice of the link to the Badil article on Persecution in international law is an unfortunate one. It paraphrases the definition from the Rome Statute and omits the actual grounds that are enumerated there:

    Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph [Article 7] or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;

    Persecution can include acts of apartheid, which are mentioned in the same Article of the Rome Statute and in the Badil article. The Goldstone report cited several forms of “institutionalized discrimination” based upon “race or nationality” that it characterized as crimes against humanity and possible examples of the aggravated crime of persecution. So it does not logically follow that those of us who characterize that situation as apartheid are slandering Israel in any way. Apartheid can constitute an included offense in the aggravated crime of persecution. What other forms of persecution did the fact finding report mention?

  25. guernica
    November 2, 2011, 5:14 am

    from my archive:
    Make no mistake – Israelis have always been racist
    The racist, extreme right wing gets in and fills the vacuum left by the negligent social left.
    By Merav Michaeli
    Among those shocked at the “spread of racism” are people who claim that the residents of the neighborhoods protesting against foreigners are not racist but merely afraid, merely in distress. Indeed, the chief activist in the neighborhood of Kiryat Shalom, Eli Mizrahi, said, “There is no hatred …. We know they are suffering …. I don’t understand: Why is it necessary to make it harder for us, in a place with a weak population? … Why pile weakness on weakness?”
    It’s true; the neighborhoods are weak, with weak residents who have a hard time making a living and getting ahead. One can just read the reports on increasing poverty, declining wages and growing nutritional insecurity to know how tangible the distress is; a struggle for survival. Israel neglected these people and communities, and in recent years is only increasing their number.
    But the distress does not contradict the racism, it goes hand in hand with it. In its early days, when Israel’s character was taking shape, it determined that the white race was superior. When the people who would eventually become “Mizrahim” arrived and were brought here from North Africa, it wasn’t suggested or made possible for them to take part in the government, the land, the systems of power and the media. Very quickly they became citizens, but second-class citizens subject to humiliation and inferior conditions. They were excluded from public life and official cultural life, living with the knowledge and experience of inferiority. And separation: They were put in separate housing projects and separate neighborhoods.
    People who grow up with this experience of inferiority, when racism is directed at them, internalize that racism. When a landlord, the master, determines that white is good and black is inferior, you internalize that standard and hate yourself because you are not white. The standard of white superiority and the racism that comes with it become part of you, even when you are its victim.
    And then you project your racism onward, to anyone who is darker and more inferior than you. Add to that the existential distress and the inflaming of baser instincts by types like extreme right-wing activist Itamar Ben-Gvir, who don’t miss an opportunity to gather new believers, and you get the recent racist demonstrations.
    After all, this is always how it works: The racist, extreme right wing gets in and fills the vacuum left by the negligent social left. But make no mistake – the hatred and racism were always here; now they are emerging more loudly.
    The white upper classes sublimate their racism: They employ the people they perceive as inferior; they have the money to pay them (not much ) to clean for them and take care of them. Once it was the Arabs and the Mizrahim, now it’s the “infiltrators” and the foreigners (in fact, upper-class women are the employers, the men don’t even have any contact with them ).
    And so this class does just what the white and racist prime minister is doing, inciting against the very things that step on the weakest points of the weak: “a concrete threat to the Jewish and democratic character of the country,” and a “wave threatening Israeli workplaces”. And immediately thereafter, warning Israelis “not to take the law into their own hands and not to hurt the illegal infiltrators” so he can wash his hands of the matter: They are the racists, those baboons, not him.
    That’s the way this class is, part of which belongs to the good old “left,” disappointed with the peace process and party to the building of the separation fence, the roads for Jews only and acceptance committees to communities. And in the same breath, they frame the others with the charge of racism, those others from the Hatikva neighborhood and Bat Yam.

  26. guernica
    November 2, 2011, 5:27 am

    from my archive 2:

    Israeli soccer matches were suspended during the assault on Gaza. When the games resumed last week, the fans had come up with a new chant: “Why have the schools in Gaza been shut down?” sang the crowd. “Because all the children were gunned down!” came the answer.Aside from its sheer barbarism, this chant reflects the widespread belief among Israeli Jews that Israel scored an impressive victory in Gaza – a victory measured, not least, by the death toll..neve gordon/gael bronner
    .

  27. AmericaFirstforaChange
    November 2, 2011, 2:49 pm

    ‘Humanitarian’ Cindy McCain doesn’t care about Palestinian children starving in Gaza

    link to america-hijacked.com

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