Israeli newspaper owner says Obama can’t stop settlers’ ‘apartheid regime’ because of ‘Jewish lobby’

schocken 2
Amos Schocken in Haaretz’s offices. (Photo: Michal Chelbin/The New Yorker)

Amos Schocken, owner of Haaretz, writes in Israel (not here, no way) that the settler movement Gush Emunim is building an “apartheid regime” in Israel and Palestine and that it is supported by the “Jewish lobby” in the U.S. That lobby is “totally addicted” to settler policies; and this explains Obama’s collapse.

In trying to understand Obama’s reversal of his declaration in Cairo in 2009, Schocken does what Walter Russell Mead of the Council on Foreign Relations swears never to do; he ascribes political influence on the Democratic Party to American Jews. Mead would classify Schocken as an anti-semite for saying this.

As to Schocken’s question, Why they fell into line? He does not understand the minority Jewish experience. American Jewish leaders were instructed after ’67 and ’73 that they were the only thing preventing Israel’s destruction and that they must support Israeli leadership, no matter what. (Chuck Schumer: I am Israel’s guardian.) These are religiously-loaded instructions that young Jews are trying to reform. Thanks to Paul Mutter.

The term “apartheid” refers to the undemocratic system of discriminating between the rights of the whites and the blacks, which once existed in South Africa. Even though there is a difference between the apartheid that was practiced there and what is happening in the territories, there are also some points of resemblance. There are two population groups in one region, one of which possesses all the rights and protections, while the other is deprived of rights and is ruled by the first group. This is a flagrantly undemocratic situation.

Since the Six-Day War, there has been no other group in Israel with the ideological resilience of Gush Emunim, and it is not surprising that many politicians have viewed that ideology as a means for realizing personal political ambitions. Zevulun Hammer, who identified this ideology as the way to capture the leadership of the National Religious Party, and Ariel Sharon, who identified this ideology as the way to capture the leadership of Likud, were only two of many. Now Avigdor Lieberman, too, is following this path, but there were and are others, such as the late Hanan Porat, for whom the realization of this ideology was and remains the purpose of their political activity.

This ideology views the creation of an Israeli apartheid regime as a necessary tool for its realization. It has no difficulty with illegal actions and with outright criminality, because it rests on mega-laws that it has adopted and that have no connection with the laws of the state, and because it rests on a perverted interpretation of Judaism. It has scored crucial successes. Even when actions inspired by the Gush Emunim ideology conflict with the will of the government, they still quickly win the backing of the government. The fact that the government is effectively a tool of Gush Emunim and its successors is apparent to everyone who has dealings with the settlers, creating a situation of force multiplication.

This ideology has enjoyed immense success in the United States, of all places. President George H.W. Bush was able to block financial guarantees to Israel because of the settlements established by the government of Yitzhak Shamir (who said lying was permissible to realize the Gush Emunim ideology. Was Benjamin Netanyahu’s Bar-Ilan University speech a lie of this kind? ). Now, though, candidates for the Republican Party’s presidential nomination are competing among themselves over which of them supports Israel and the occupation more forcefully. Any of them who adopt the approach of the first President Bush will likely put an end to their candidacy.

Whatever the reason for this state of affairs – the large number of evangelicals affiliated with the Republican party, the problematic nature of the West’s relations with Islam, or the power of the Jewish lobby, which is totally addicted to the Gush Emunim ideology – the result is clear: It is not easy, and may be impossible, for an American president to adopt an activist policy against Israeli apartheid.

Schocken asks why

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.
Posted in American Jewish Community, Israel Lobby, Israel/Palestine, Occupation, Settlers/Colonists, US Politics

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  1. Word. When will the craven, lickspittle US media put this travesty of Judaism, the perversion of religion, on their front pages and make it a major talking point and election issue?

    • seafoid says:

      When it is too late.

      Charlie Hill is a comedian from the Oneida nation. He says”America is stuck on stupid. America will never be right until they make it right with the Indians”

      Judaism is stuck on stupid. It will never be right until they make it right with the Palestinians.

      • American says:

        “When it is too late.”..(seafoid)

        I always think about what Mayer wrote when I hear ‘too late’. I don’t know if it’s too late for Israel but they are teetering on the verge of unleashing something that could be more horrific. The US, considering what it use to suppose it was, has already gone over the cliff for Israel. ..step by step, capitulation by capitulation.

        “But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

        “And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. “Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven’t done (for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing).
        You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.”

        • seafoid says:

          “My working definition of tragedy is that it is the dawning realisation that it is already too late.”

        • seafoid says:

          That is a great piece, American

          link to uncle-scam.com.

          I don’t think the Zionists understand. Never again means never again for anyone . It doesn’t matter what Israel wants. Israel has to play by the rules.
          And the goys keep the Israeli economy humming. So Israel has no choice long term.

      • Charon says:

        Understanding only comes at the end, when it is too late. Too late to turn back to the ways things were. Zionism needs to die in order to put Judaism back on the right track. Powerful people are trying to keep Zionism alive… it’s on life support. It’s Ariel Sharon. Someone will either pull the plug or eventually it will fizzle out. It’s finite, mortal, and on it’s last legs.

        The problem with modern day “Israel” located in modern day Palestine is it really represents the core issue of human understanding. Taking things too literally. Taking orders without question. When I read religious or mythology text, I notice common and recurring elements shared by all.

        Palestine is a small piece of land that for 2,000 years has had biblical names and biblical history applied where it never existed. This continues today. That is the problem, taking things literally without question. When If you read the bible metaphorically, Jerusalem can be pseudonym for the entire planet Earth. The historical city in Palestine is just a historical city that took it’s name from religion. They are not the same place. That is the problem

      • RE: “Judaism is stuck on stupid. It will never be right until they make it right with the Palestinians.” ~ seafoid

        MY REPLY: Judaism or Zionism (assuming there is a difference)?

        • Chaos4700 says:

          There used to be a difference. I sense the gap is closing as Zionism becomes more militant and politically domineering. If the level of Jewish dissent drops to a sufficiently superficial percentage, Zionists may do away with Jewish non-Zionists altogether. A false flag here, a few bombs in a few synagogues there, and what non-Zionist Jews there were would be either dead or “converted.” Maybe if they’re lucky they’ll just find themselves declared heretics and excommunicated, the way eee and WJ tout presently.

  2. Sand says:

    I agree — as an observer it really does look as if Judaism has been swallowed up by Zionism. Judaism has become part of the Lobby. As the Christian Zionists have attached themselves to the Republicans, the American Jewish (religious) Zionists have binded themselves to the Democratic Party — and everyone else is expected to lump it.

    Obervations:

    With …”the disturbing level of discontent with the Jewish state among a number of Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist rabbinical students spending a year in Israel…” The answer from their spirtual leaders “…“The central objective of the program is to build a Zionist mindset,” said Rabbi Ammiel Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue (Reform) in Manhattan. “Otherwise it’s a wasted opportunity.”

    link to thejewishweek.com

    And when you have ex-J-Streeter (An organization supposed to be close to the Administration), URJ President-Elect Rabbi Richard Jacobs
    quoting Daniel Pipes favourably you can see many of us are seeing a massive perverted trend before us.

    My Heart is in the East: My Zionist Commitments
    Delivered by Rabbi Richard Jacobs at the Religious Action Center’s Consultation on Conscience, Washington, D.C.

    “…Now, being pro-Israel means always standing in solidarity with the State of Israel. To me, Jewish life cannot be imagined without Israel at its core. … But our love for Israel is not dependent on who is prime minister or on what issues are before the Knesset or the chief rabbinate.

    Daniel Pipes, an academic known for his hard-line Middle East views, had it right when he said recently “that anyone concerned about the security and welfare of Israel is in the pro-Israel camp.”

    …I agree wholeheartedly with Rabbi Saperstein’s decision to speak at the conference, to assert again how vital movement towards a peace process is to Israel’s security and America’s interests, to offer thoughtful criticism of J Street’s policy making, but also to offer a strong critique of J Street’s stand opposing the recent US veto of the UN resolution condemning Israeli settlements.

    This coming from the supposedly progressive liberal wing of Judaism? Where’s the outcry from URJ congregations?

    link to urj.org

    URJ’s equivalent program to ‘BIRTHRIGHT’:

    Israel, Up Close and Personal (July 25, 2011)
    By Rabbi Richard Jacobs, URJ President-Elect

    “…Just days before, these Reform Jewish teens had left their homes in North America and traveled to Eastern Europe where they stood together at Auschwitz and Birkenau contemplating the darkest moment in all of human history. Having experienced the remnants of Jewish life in Prague, they would journey next to the home most had not yet visited [Israel]…”

    link to israel.rjblog.org

    • Woody Tanaka says:

      “they would journey next to the home most had not yet visited [Israel]…”

      Such people that can see this are, quite literally, insane.

    • thetumta says:

      “Auschwitz and Birkenau contemplating the darkest moment in all of human history.”
      I suspect, at this rate, this statement will prove to be false. The Zionist’s apparent successes will prove to be the Jews undoing. Yes, massive collateral damage. Why would you assume that “the darkest moment in all of human history” is behind us as opposed to staring us in the face?
      Hej!

      • dahoit says:

        How about that the darkest day in human history is subjective.Every mass murder was the darkest day for those who were victims,from Carthage to Genghis Khan,to the Lionheart’s slaughter,to Stalin’s victims,to Pol Pot.
        Some aint special than others.

    • seafoid says:

      “…Now, being pro-Israel means always standing in solidarity with the State of Israel

      This is why Israel is f*****. All resistance has been neutered and there is nothing to stop the madness.
      Israel right or wrong. Apartheid or mass murder.

  3. Sand says:

    BTW: Biden’s has been summoned by “Jewish American leaders” (including the Rabbis no doubt) AGAIN on Pollard!

    Biden Meets With Jewish Leaders About Pollard Case
    Tuesday, November 22, 2011
    JTA
    link to thejewishweek.com

    If this guy does get released then he should be treated with at least the same amount of contempt given to the Lockerbie bomber when he was flown home. A full hour documentary on PBS is required to show the crimes he committed against the United States to the United States National Security! Also, those who continually badged the Administration asking for his release should be interviewed and profiled!

    • thetumta says:

      Well, that would make collecting them easier. Now that we have the Obama precedent of murdering Americans without trial, warrant, nor due process anything, I can’t think of a better group to apply it to. As for Pollard, he should have slipped in the shower years ago.
      Hej!

  4. American says:

    It’s true, the Lobby is responsible for US support of Israel. It’s always been true, that has been admitted by every US President, ( in their private papers and conversations, check any Presidential Library).

    The US has come a long way from this:
    “Up to World War I the United States refrained from intervention in the Middle East region mainly because they wanted to avoid competing with British interests there . Oil exploitation was also at its beginnings and British Petroleum had the monopoly of it. For the countries of the region the US enjoyed a favorable image since they had no imperial designs in the Middle East. This view was reinforced at the end of World War I by President Wilson’s 14 Points and by America’s championing of the principle of self-determination at the Versailles peace conference. The Middle Eastern countries which were resisting the encroachment of European powers even hoped for American protection against European imperialism. This hope was expressed forcefully in the King-Crane Commission dispatched by Wilson to Syria and Palestine to ascertain the preferences of the populations regarding which mandatory power should be chosen to help them toward independence, according to the goals set by the League of Nations. The King-Crane Commission left a favorable impression in Syria and Palestine as the majority of those interviewed expressed a desire for an American mandate in preference to a British or a French one.”

    To prempt those who claim Israel is tied in with US imperialism and colonialism I am wiling to give the imperialism, but not the colonialism claims an inch of truth.
    But it was a creeping thing brought about by other circumstances, mainly our Russian concerns after WWII and the French and British scaling back on their own imperialism in the ME. The US stepped into what they considered the void and tried what they called” off shore balancing” to protect US oil interest. This was mainly an effort to make sure no one power had the ability to screw up the ME to the point where oil availability was threatened.
    BUT ..this was just ‘bizness’ and even though Arabs came to resent it as it became more heavy handed, they tolerated “bizness’ and ‘interest’ easier than they did
    US support of Israel because they saw that correctly as an ‘outright assault’ on and insult to the Arab ‘people’ and the whole region.

    US support of Israel is now the core of all anti American attitude in the ME.
    It’s one thing when you resent someone meddling in your business or cheating you. BUT.. it’s another thing entirely when you see that bully championing and making it possible for it’s mad dog Israel to kill, steal and flaunt in it your face. And compound that with the 1001 US economic strong arming acts ‘solely’ to benefit Israel even when it damaged Egypt’s or some other ME countries own economy and had absolutely no benefit to the US.

    Probably relations with Saudi is the only one the Lobby hasn’t been able destroy, but they have deliberately screwed with and tried to and have destroyed for the most part every other US relationship interest in the ME.

    No one, no one, can put forth an argument for Israel being of any benefit or any kind of asset or anything but a liability to the US without lying their head off.

    The Israeli Lobby has made the US act against it’s own interest and that’s a fact.

    • re the King Crane Commission

      King-Crane Commission dispatched by Wilson to Syria and Palestine to ascertain the preferences of the populations regarding which mandatory power should be chosen to help them toward independence, according to the goals set by the League of Nations. The King-Crane Commission left a favorable impression in Syria and Palestine as the majority of those interviewed expressed a desire for an American mandate in preference to a British or a French one.”

      Oberlin College holds archives of King Crane findings (King was president of Oberlin): link to oberlin.edu

      Moved by the statements of the hundreds of delegations with whom they met, King and Crane sent a series of urgent telegrams to Wilson calling for action. In one such message, Crane stated that “[the] situation in Turkey so serious your Commission decided to return to report as soon as it had covered essentials.”4 However, the Paris Peace Conference was nearing its close and the Middle East was sidelined. When the Commission’s final report was transmitted to the Conference and carried to Washington, D.C. by Commission secretary Donald Brodie, it was initially ignored and eventually suppressed.

      Though both Henry Churchill King and Charles Crane felt that the Commission’s report should be made public, they believed themselves unable to distribute the report or speak with the press without the explicit permission of either the Department of State or Woodrow Wilson himself. The State Department prevented even other U.S. government officials from seeing the report, stating that, “it would not be compatible with the public interest.”5 Authorization did not come until 1922, after the end of Wilson’s term and the signing of the Treaty of Sèvres (1920), which partitioned the Ottoman Empire and distributed Arab territories to Britain and France largely in line with the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916. The publication of the Commission report in the December 2, 1922 edition of the Editor & Publisher allowed the public finally to read the recommendations of the King-Crane Commission.

      Crane — and the Commission’s report — are quite often dismissed out of hand, claiming that “Crain was an antisemite.” But notice that the above quote says they talked to the people. King Crane went to extraordinary measures to get the views of the people who would be affected by decisions. ALL were ignored. Balfour, Baron Rothschild, and Sykes-Picot were the “1%” whose voices were heard.

      • Talkback says:

        Lourd Balfour:
        “The contradiction between the letter of the Covenant is even more flagrant in the case of the independent nation of Palestine than in that of the independent nation of Syria. For in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country, though the American Commission [evidently the King Crane Commission] has been going through the forms of asking what they are. The four great powers are committed to Zionism and Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long tradition, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder importance than the desire and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land. In my opinion, that is right. ”
        link to mideastweb.org

        And from a declassified British memo:
        “3. The [Balfour] Declaration was the result of prolonged discussion with the Zionist leaders. Its terms were framed with great care after lengthy deliberations by the War Cabinet, in which all parties of the State were represented, as also the Overseas Dominions in the person of General Smuts. It had a definite war object. It was designed to enlist on behalf of the Allies the sympathy of influential Jews and Jewish organisations all over the world. The Declaration was published at a time when the military situation was exceedingly critical. Russia had dropped out of the Alliance; Italy appeared to be at her last gasp; and the Germans, freed from anxiety in the East, were massing hugh forces on the Western front in preparation for the great offensive of 1918. The promise to the Jews was in fact made at a time of acute national danger. The objections to receding from it when the danger is over are obvious.” link to nationalarchives.gov.uk

        Read also this very interesting discussion:
        link to hansard.millbanksystems.com

    • dahoit says:

      Well if you’ve noticed,the Saudis are now regarded by the MSM as sane players in the ME,and that the power of oil speaks loudly.Look at how the Saudis have turned against their former friend Syria for US.
      And you can’t just blame Israel,as we are totally complicit with our own crimes,a welcome turn of events for Israel,as they can say,look at America,start with them.As per plan.

  5. tombishop says:

    Mr. Schocken may be being diplomatic when he refers to the “Jewish lobby”, but he does not understand the current condition of the U.S. government if he does not include Christian Zionism as part of the Jewish lobby. The only way Jewish Zionist supporters have any support is because they fit into the end-times eschatology of Christian Zionists. Christian Zionists are a large minority in the Christian community, but they have a political influence far beyond their numbers. They are running the Republican party and Democratic politicians, including Obama, kowtow to them.

    I was in Jerusalem a few weeks ago and witnessed the symbiotic relationship which exists between Orthodox Jews and evangelical Christians. Each is very friendly with the other, but their theology believes in the ultimate demise of the other. (Note: Not all evangelicals are Christian Zionists, but all are at least enablers.)

    Christian Zionists base their world view on superstitions based on the Book of Revelations. They believe Jews must be converted to Christianity or destroyed. It is the same ideology that has plagued Jews for 2000 years.

    Christian Zionists are the driving force behind an attack on Iran. They work closely with settlers on the West Bank to achieve the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. See this video of a 2007 conference of Christians United for Israel to see the nature of their ideology:

    • Sand says:

      I see Christian Zionists in the Republican Party, but I don’t see them in the Democratic Party? However, I do see the Jewish Zionists in both. Jewish Zionists giving money to both parties — not so with Christian Zionists — they are far too partisan.

      tombishop: “…witnessed the symbiotic relationship which exists between Orthodox Jews and evangelical Christians…

      I can believe that, although it doesn’t seem rational does it. The Israelis making friends with the likes of Mike Bickle (the “prison camps” for Jews guy)??? Bizarre! But they are more than happy to use him as a tool:

      link to talk2action.org

      “…shortly after the Israel Mandate conference, Stearns [CUFI director] hosted Yuli Edelstein, Israeli Minister of Information and Diaspora, on a conference call with 500 Christian Zionist participants, focused on the Gaza flotilla incident, with no mention of the end times. Mike Bickle asked Edelstein to suggest concrete political actions that could be taken, and following Edelstein’s response, Stearns thanked Bickle for working to “cultivate a heart for Israel in the nations and specifically the next generation.”…”

      link to zeek.forward.com

      I mean, why should I feel the slightest bit sorry for the likes of Elaine Fogel when I know — she knows that Israel is playing nice with these guys?

      • Sand says:

        In fact, I just tried searching on OpenSecrets.org to see if I could find one Christian Zionist pro-Israel PAC? Apparently, CUFI’s John Hagee has one — but I couldn’t find it. Does anyone know what it is called?

        • tombishop says:

          I can’t find Hagee’s specific PAC, but if you look at CUFI’s website you can get an idea about their political activity. Checkout their speaker’s bureau and the outreach to churches, including the calendar of events. Also, look at their press releases such as 31,000 e-mails to the French President on November 10th calling for him to vote against Palestinian statehood. The website is at:

          link to cufi.org

        • Sand says:

          tombishop: link to cufi.org. Thanks. Did you check out Brog’s Blog? David Brog the Executive Director of CUFI. This guy was working in the Jewish Zionist camp long before he got involved with the Christian CUFI Zionists.

          “…Before his work with CUFI, Brog worked in the United States Senate for seven years, rising to be chief of staff to [Senator Arlen Specter - not noted on his CUFI website. Sen. Arlen Specter the guy who went off to Syria at least 18 times to negotiate on behalf of Israel without it seems the knowledge of the US State Dept half the time] and staff director of the Senate Judiciary Committee…”

          At this point, with a lack of a money trail with Christian Zionist pro-Israel $$$ PACs, I’m wondering how much Jewish Zionist $$$ is actually funding CUFI?

          <link to ynetnews.com

          Brog's Blog
          link to cufi.org

        • MRW says:

          Sand,

          Google jewsonfirst.org and cufi. They did an exposé on Hagee.

        • Sand says:

          Thanks MRW — I’ve been to their site many times. Also, read most of what they’ve had to say about the man — his events etc. But I couldn’t seem to find the answer about how he commands the financial assets of his flock? It seems he collects their money and then he decides how it’s allocated, and to whom? Normally, if you have a particular issue you wish to focus on,and “create leverage” you create a PAC e.g. like NORPAC. Those donors know exactly where their money is going to “create leverage”! NORPAC is very savvy and focused in that way!

          I’m wondering does John Hagee have an office in Israel or is all/most of the money funneled through Yechiel Eckstein’s (as well as being an ex-employee of ADL — I found out) – “International Fellowship of Christians and Jews”? Who takes charge once the money and settlers arrive in Israel?

          Debate over aliyah erupts at Jewish Agency meeting
          November 18, 2011
          link to jta.org

          Also, NORPAC (one of many Pro-Israel PACs) can get a 1000 foaming at the mouth Jewish constituents bused in to Washington D.C. CUFI can only get 5,000 ‘Christian’ Zionists nationally? — and look at their faces. You can see this is not an AIPAC crowd. Especially look at the little girl with the dark hair — she reminded of the girl in the Vendetta movie – having to watch propaganda news on TV and finally walks away in disgust announcing “Bullshit” ha!

          link to sacornerstone.org

          Anyways, I’m not sure there aren’t enough Christian Zionists out there to get anywhere near the power of the Jewish Zionists.

          Hey and check this out this new Pew report:

          Lobbying for the Faithful: Religious Advocacy Groups in Washington, D.C.
          ANALYSIS

          November 21, 2011

          Note: Pew has put AIPAC in the religious category — I mean duh! coz Israel is a ‘Jewish’ State as our Congress critters keep telling us.

          No surprises AIPAC hits No. 1 place. Catholic religious organizations come up a massive $60,000,000 short to come in 2nd. Somehow, I don’t think Christian Zionists like John Hagee are making much of a dent on the Hill when it comes to Israel.

          link to pewforum.org

        • Sand says:

          Anyways, I’m not sure there are enough Christian Zionists out there to get anywhere near the power of the Jewish Zionists.

        • RE: Google jewsonfirst.org and cufi. ~ MRW

          THE MOST PROMISING:
          Christian Zionists lobby for US attack on Iran;
          Right-wing Christian Evangelicals, End Times and Israel

          by JewsOnFirst, July 31, 2006
          LINK – link to jewsonfirst.org
          John Hagee’s Christians United for Israel Conference Mixes End-Times Prophecies With Lobbying, jewsonfirst.org, 7/24/08
          LINK – link to jewsonfirst.org
          Inside CUFI’s 2011 Washington “Summit”, Special to JewsOnFirst.org, 07/29/11
          LINK – link to jewsonfirst.org

    • American says:

      “The only way Jewish Zionist supporters have any support is because they fit into the end-times eschatology of Christian Zionists. ”

      I would disagree with that. Jewish zionist are the money that talks in congress and buys legistation. The christian zios are the poor uneducated cousins that are part of the republican voter base, they are ‘helpers’ to the Pro Israel machine.
      But it’s the political money to congress and politicians that dictates outcomes.

      • tombishop says:

        How does this explain the 29 standing ovations Netanyahu received when he addressed Congress on May 24th. This was from both sides of the aisle. I’m sure money from Jewish Zionist lobbies is a factor, but isn’t it far more likely that they feared the political consequences from Christian Zionists if they were not seen standing with Israel?

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390522/Netanyahu-pledges-Israeli-compromise-Congress–gets-standing-ovations-Obamas-State-Union.html

        • annie says:

          isn’t it far more likely that they feared the political consequences from Christian Zionists if they were not seen standing with Israel?

          no. at least not for my reps. there just are not that many christian zionists in my district and they’d all be throwing their support behind the republicans anyway. they were all standing to secure $upport.

        • American says:

          “How does this explain the 29 standing ovations Netanyahu received when he addressed Congress on May 24th. This was from both sides of the aisle.”

          To answer your question No.
          It’s what annie said.
          Listen, I live in the South among the very religious….my republican congressman has never and will never vote for aid for Israel and makes it plain…it’s a well known fact about him. The religious will never let him be defeated because he’s pro life and a good christian……there aren’t enough christian ‘zios’ among all the evans or any kind of religious in this state to be a threat.

        • RoHa says:

          Or feared those photographs and videos would be released.

    • W.Jones says:

      Tom Bishop,

      I think you are making a good point about the Christian Zionists in your first post earlier. I believe their main motivation is political concerns, rather than coming from deep theology.

      From Christianity’s viewpoint, the modern Zionist movement is like the nationalists of Jesus’ time, the Zealots, which was different than Christianity, although there was alittle overlap with some Christians then, I suppose.

      I believe it’s a mistake to assume that Christian Zionism comes from theology. The main Protestant founders didn’t belong to it. Evangelicals who are Palestinian take a different view of it, just as black evangelicals look at politics differently. And I heard little if anything about Christian Zionism when I went to an evangelical school 15 years ago, yet there was a sense of intolerance toward others who weren’t right-wing protestant.

      Christian Zionism is a recent phenomenon and is in the evangelical right wing of US Christians. If we look at the right wing US religious movement, we see that their cultural views are shaped alot by politics- eg. their views on US wars in general, and on corporate power. I think the foundational motivating force therefore for Christian Zionism is the fact that the Israeli State is considered part of American world power.

      It is also worth pointing out two more things:
      1. When you talk to regular evangelicals about the problems Palestinian Christians face, many are often able to partly admit there is a problem or qualify their views about the conflict. Their knowledge isn’t that deep about it.

      2. The main leadership in some of the Christian Zionist organizations, I was susprised to find, sometimes aren’t Christian or don’t support evangelizing activities there.

      3. If you brought all the country’s evangelicals to hear Netanyahu speak, I am guessing only 2/3 of them would give him the same number of ovations he received at his famous speech earlier this year.

      So my conclusion is that the Christian Zionist movement is a serious supporter of the Israeli government, much as the US establishment is, or Christian Congresspeople are. I just don’t think the main motivation is theological.

      And yes, there is something uncanny about the country’s least tolerant religious group being one of the strongest groups of supporters.

      • American says:

        “So my conclusion is that the Christian Zionist movement is a serious supporter of the Israeli government, much as the US establishment is, or Christian Congresspeople are. I just don’t think the main motivation is theological.”

        Have you really listened to these nutcases? Go to some of the major sites of christian zio orgs and read their stuff. Hell, just listen to their leaders, it’s all the same. When they talk about their support for Israel it’s all religious mumbo jumbo about the bible and conversion of Jews and taking off from Israel in God’s spaceship when the end comes. They wouldn’t know geo politics if it bit them in the ass and can’t tell you anything about FP except Bomb Iran and Kill A-rabs. The only remotely political thing about US policy they say is the US will be destroyed if it doesn’t support Israel. That they are right wing politically has nothing to do with their support of Israel–they are witch burners, fire and brimstone, God’s wrath and non christians and Jews getting frenched fired and fed to the locust if they don’t accept Jesus. These people are seriously, seriously politically ignorant as well as crazy.

        • why are Christian zionists so supportive of the Jewish state, when they are so opposed to many issues that Jews usually heartily endorse, ie. gay marriage, abortion, immigration?
          Doesn’t it turn them inside out to support the people who support the issues they are so passionately opposed to?

        • lobewyper says:

          American,

          I’m not that knowledgeable about Christians, let alone Christian Zionists, but here goes anyway. First, agree that C-Zs are politically uninformed. Second, may C. Fundamentalists (including those who are C-Zs) have a black/white or for vs. against us mentality. These folks are xenophobic, fearful of non-Christians (especially ones whose members do suicide bombings), and it is very easy for them to view Israel as a dam that helps restrain Arabs, Muslims, “foreign unbelievers” from overrunning and slaughtering us.

          (I know this because I had a couple of high school friends back in the 50′s whose mothers were C. Fundamentalists and every chance they got, they warned me of the Godless communists that had infiltrated every level of our government and were just waiting for their chance to destroy us.)

          Christian Zionist–I think most Christian fundamentalists would fall into this category. For these people, the world is too complex and nuanced to be grasped by their worldview. A simpler all good/all bad viewpoint is preferable and is effective for them in dealing with modern angst.

          I also think that C-Zs strongly perceive Israel as “David” and its enemies as “Goliath,” and that they themselves subsconsciously identify with courageous “Little David” preparing to slay whichever of the Goliaths it feels threatened by. Thus, the brave Israelis defending their “security” and “right to exist” resonates deeply with C-Zs. (I think to some extent we all can identify with David, but some of us know who “David” actually is in the current conflict…)

        • MRW says:

          Teta mother me, lobewyper, and American,

          This Christian site provides the answer. This site is against Christian Zionism, and everything it stands for:
          link to whtt.org

          There is an audio/video link on the left that describes how the Christian bible was rewritten at the start of the 20th C to include Israel. . . .when Israel was not even a country then. It’s called the Scofield Reference Bible, but it became the bible for all the dispensationalists and fundies.

        • MRW says:

          Here’s the link:
          link to vimeo.com

          Well worth watching.

        • lobewyper says:

          Wow, MRW!

          I shall never accuse you of not being widely read… :)

        • Potsherd2 says:

          teta – those are the wrong Jews. Christian Zionists don’t support Jews, they support the “Jewish state.” In short, they support moving all the Jews out of the US in a vast campaign of ethnic transfer so they can all be incinerated at the End Times, a campaign that will leave the US Judenrein (and Muslimrein, too, they’re working on that) and a Christian State.

        • American says:

          “Wow, MRW!

          I shall never accuse you of not being widely read”

          Me either….. MRW is a library of his own.

        • American says:

          Good reference site MRW…thanks for link.

        • annie says:

          mrw, i watched this movie this morning. thank you very much. i also sent it too my relatives in the south and asked if they’d heard of this stuff. everyone should watch this, especially all the changes made in 67. what auspicious timing.

        • W.Jones says:

          American,

          I am afraid you don’t understand me when I say:
          ((“So my conclusion is that the Christian Zionist movement is a serious supporter of the Israeli government, much as the US establishment is, or Christian Congresspeople are. I just don’t think the main motivation is theological.”

          Have you really listened to these nutcases? Go to some of the major sites of christian zio orgs and read their stuff. Hell, just listen to their leaders, it’s all the same. When they talk about their support for Israel it’s all religious mumbo jumbo about the bible))
          I am not talking about the ideas or thoughts of the C.Zionism movement, which yes, are religious in tone and nature. I am talking about the root source of those religious ideas.

          And my point to you is that the ultimate origin of those religious ideas is not really Christianity, because St Paul considered Christians to be God’s people too. In traditional Christianity, both Christians and nonJewish Christians are both part of Israel.

          You can talk about the Dispensationalist thinkers of the modern era, but then you have to ask why those thinkers and their ideas caught on so strongly among many evangelicals. And the answer for this isn’t because they are good Christian ideas, or attractive, or “literal Bible reading”, because they aren’t.

          Look at the US CIvil War over Slavery- both sides thought that the Bible supported their own view of slavery. Why did they think that? Yes, they both talked and thought in religious terms, but those religious ideas were not the _real reason_ for why they thought the Bible was pro or anti slavery. Instead, there was a real underlying societal reason for why they chose those religious ideas- because their part of the country was pro or antislavery.

          Now look at the C.Zionism. It’s source, and attractiveness is not because it’s the “literal” reading of the Bible, because that’s obviously not true. As I said in my first message, Christianity was a separate movement from the Zealots in the 1st century AD, and the Zealots were the “Zionists” of that time. You can read about this in early Christian history.

          Now you need to ask yourself what the real reason and underlying source of the C.Zionist religious movement is, just like we discussed with the pro and anti slavery movements. Why did large groups of right wingers find this “C.Zionist” ideology attractive, if not because it’s “good theology”?

          And here you get to the reason when you say: ((They wouldn’t know geo politics if it bit them in the ass and can’t tell you anything about FP except Bomb Iran and Kill A-rabs.))
          Now you need to be able to sort through things and figure out why they have these kinds of warlike policies. If you just dismiss them as ignorant, you are doing yourself and them a big disservice in failing to understand WHY they have these strong- albeit coarse- political beliefs.

          If you say it is just their “evaneglical religion” then again you fail, because Black evangelicals don’t have the same kind of right wing politics.

          And the real reason is societal, like I was trying to tell you. Politically, they find the American establishment attractive, and that is why they talk certain ways and make religious justifications for their views.

          So yes, the Christian Zionists accept a certain set of religious ideas and don’t talk in nuanced secular political terms, but the fact of the Israeli state’s strength and its connection to the American establishment that decides their politics is the underlying attraction for making their religious ideas about following the earthly Israeli political system.

          I could go on, but the point is that C.Zionism doesn’t really come from Christianity, and it has more to do with the political orientation of the US establishment. If you think their religious ideas come from religious ponderings detached from their material and societal situation, you fail to understand the source of those ideas, and fall into the same trap they do- thinking in simplistic terms about religious people, since C.Zionists also think Muslims act only out of their “bad” religious system. The C.Zionists also fail to understand why radical Muslims choose radicalism where very many other Muslims don’t. Chaulking things up to religion doesn’t explain why they choose that religion in the first place, which is what I am talking about when I say “the C.Zionists’ motivation for their religious ideas is not religion.”

        • annie says:

          w.jones, your comment really interests me and i appreciate it but i have some questions because it doesn’t completely fit in w/my family history.

          Look at the US CIvil War over Slavery- both sides thought that the Bible supported their own view of slavery. Why did they think that? Yes, they both talked and thought in religious terms, but those religious ideas were not the _real reason_ for why they thought the Bible was pro or anti slavery. Instead, there was a real underlying societal reason for why they chose those religious ideas- because their part of the country was pro or antislavery.

          perhaps this is true for society in general but i come from a long line of methodist preachers. i have my grandfather’s papers including speeches he made at the big methodist conferences where they debated whether blacks should be recognized in courts (this was from the late 1800′s) very similar to churches debating gay rights today. his uncle was similarly arguing in the methodist conference against the grain in pre civil war. they were roving ministers (mostly missouri, Illinois,kansas) and people came from miles around to hear them speak sometimes driving days. the great great uncle fell afoul of the general drift pre civil war and was sent (my father said it was as a retaliation for his obstinence) down to texas where he was eventually hung as a brownite, preaching against slavery/underground railroad stuff etc. so it was not always regional. some of these people were of good conscience and spoke their word where ever they were and they traveled. i inherited their papers and it makes me cry reading them. there were good christians in many ugly places and they did not always bend with the community. they were followers of jon wesley’s teachings. perhaps this is not evangelical as we know it today.

        • American says:

          “I could go on, but the point is that C.Zionism doesn’t really come from Christianity, and it has more to do with the political orientation of the US establishment. ”

          Well let me ask you WJ why Christian zionist members need a religion for their basic political orientation? Humm?

          If CZ followers were just wingers taking their political views and injecting it into a religion for political purposes they could just as easily have picked China or Africa as their pet project couldn’t they? But China has no biblical significance does it?

          And if the CZ adherents are just politically motivated there 101 other ideological political groups of all stripes they could join. They don’t need to a religion to project their politics.

          The only argument you could creditably make is that the motivation for the creators of CZ, the TV God Merchants, their zionist partners and so forth who con the little people into C-Zionism, is political power ……and money of course.

          Most people look for meaning, answers, reasons, relief from their ordinary lives and problems, reassurance of immorality, someone or thing to turn responsibility or what they can’t cope with over to, as in God’s will for good or bad events. And for some of them the more mystical, the more shock and aweing, the more they are special ones on a special mission from God, the rewarded ones in the worlds final ending…. the better. They fall for it. This becomes their frame of reference for ‘their ideas’ about other things like their politics.

          It remains to be seen how fast they would decamp from their religious rapture if it threaten the safety of their and their family’s everyday practical lives. Several years ago we gave some money and equipment for a yard sale to a girl raising money for her sister who had leukemia and no insurance.
          She was very religious, very conservative, pro life, all that. She had donated her bone marrow to her sister, but it still wasn’t looking good. She started talking about wonderful doctors at Duke who weren’t charging for their own services to help defray cost. And then she said they told here that ‘someday’ if stem cell research was allowed to continue this disease could be cured. Opposition to stem cell use, she said, had been a political position for her because of her religion. Guess whether her sisters disease changed her mind on that or not.
          LOL…you watch those CZs run like hell from Israel if their religious imagining ever becomes real and starts falling on their heads.

        • john h says:

          Christian Zionism comes from an interpretation of the Old Testament that is grafted on to an interpretation of the New. The result is a contradiction of Christianity and of Christ; it is an oxymoron.

          It is more likely to be held by conservative right-wingers because it is easier to fit into that view or mindset than into the left-wing one.

          you watch those CZs run like hell from Israel if their religious imagining ever becomes real and starts falling on their heads.

          Yeah, so true, yet some will be dyed in the wool no matter what happens on the ground. It comes with the territory. Jim Jones and Koresh.

          Most people look for meaning, answers, reasons, relief from their ordinary lives and problems, reassurance of immorality,

          Lol!!

        • W.Jones says:

          American,

          It seems like a confusing format here in the comments section because the lines all seem to run together achronologically. In any case, it is interesting talking with you about this.

          I had a rather interesting discussion on a Christian forum a few weeks ago with a Christian Zionist, but I gave up when he (a board admin) censored my post against theocracy labeling it as antisemitic. The thread question was whether democracy would be preferable to theocracy in the Holy Land. I explained to him that my post was against Protestant, Rabbinical, and Islamic theocracies in principle, but that explanation didn’t work with him. It seemed like he would rather mislabel things than address the issue.

          Anyway, let’s get to your question. You asked: ((Well let me ask you WJ why Christian zionist members need a religion for their basic political orientation? Humm))
          This is like asking why the pro or anti-slavery preachers needed religion for their politics, or why adherents of the religious-tinged “Manifest Destiny” idea needed religion for their politics. Why did the American settlers need their religious ideas of Manifest Destiny for their politics of conquering the western US?

          To understand this, you need to think what is the real source of the CZ? Was it simply that CZs read the Bible literally and decided Martin Luther and everyone else (including many evangelicals of the early 20th century, I assume) were wrong? I think they saw politically that the Israeli state and army were very strong (4th strongest army in the world) and also very close allies of the US establishment. And for people whose politics support the establishment and see the world in religious terms, this was seen as a very positive religious thing.

          If their politics were different (like that of more traditional Christians), they might have followed the example of the early Christians who interpreted the people’s nationalism as trying to create an earthly empire separate from the Christians’ Messiah with His spiritual empire, and who separated themselves from the revolt against Rome.

          So you can say that the CZ needed their religious ideas to explain their political observations in religious terms. They were positively impressed by military domination and alliance with the establishment and saw this in positive religious terms.

          Part of the problem is that you see a dichotomy- either they have religious ideas deeply motivated by religion itself, or they are openly thinking politics using political arguments covered by a veneer of religion like window dressing.

          No, that is not what I am saying. They have sincere religious ideas and interpret the world in religious ways, but this is not the actual stimulus and motivation for those ideas, because the early Christians had a different political place in their society and interpreted the same thing- militant nationalism- differently.

          You ask ((If CZ followers were just wingers taking their political views and injecting it into a religion for political purposes they could just as easily have picked China or Africa as their pet project couldn’t they? But China has no biblical significance does it?))
          First off, I don’t cynicially think they consciously looked at the situation and said ‘how can we create religious justifications to serve our political goals’, although admittedly there may have been a few people who thought this way. More likely they observed political facts, approved them, and then interepreted them religiously.

          My point is that once you realize the source of the movement isn’t Christianity itself, it becomes easier I think to address and understand the movement for yourself.

          But to get back to your question in parentheses, what about Africa or China? If those places were strong and part of the establishment, could they be interpreted to fit religiously? Of course. Based on the many arguments people have had about interpreting religion, you should suspect this yourself.

          Think of all the arguments there are about Old Testament prophecies and the Book of Revelations. If one was convinced by political facts that this was the meaning, they would just naturally do it. We are talking about visions, and those naturally can be seen differently. There are Old Testament prophecies I think about Egypt becoming good and following God. I could imagine someone picking out those prophecies and constructing a movement around the examples you gave if Africa was part of the establishment.

          Traditional Christianity might disagree, but as to your hypothetical question- would it be possible to pick Africa, or even China, as a pet project, the answer could be yes.

          Or I could respond that you are right, and religious people limit themselves to topics of Biblical significance (ie not China). But that still doesn’t explain how people with certain societal backgrounds (pro-establishment, pro-slavery, etc) choose among a range of viewpoints within those topics.

          So there are different ways to answer your question.

          Next, you make a good point: ((And if the CZ adherents are just politically motivated there 101 other ideological political groups of all stripes they could join. They don’t need to a religion to project their politics.))
          In other words, why must they think in religious terms about this political subject, when they can think about other political subjects in nonreligious terms?
          Well, one reason might be because the conflict in the Holy Land actually is related to religion. This becomes clearer when you learn that Palestinians and Israelis are actually closely related ethnically, and most are not really “Arabs” from Arabia, but the same basic group.

        • American says:

          “But that still doesn’t explain how people with certain societal backgrounds (pro-establishment, pro-slavery, etc) choose among a range of viewpoints within those topics’

          WJ, I just grabbed your quote above to say that I think you are comparing ‘everything to everything’……whereas I am talking specifically about the motivation of christian zionist.

          I know Methodist and Catholics and other individuals who are just as right wing, conservative, pro life, pro defense and all that. That fact of the matter is some people will ” actually base their politics on religion” and some will ‘use religion to justify’ their politics.

          The difference between the extreme right wing politics of some Christians and the CZs is that none of them go so far as to advocate or believe that their allegiance to Israel should come above the US…..which is what the CZ leaders and their followers do…..they say it loud and clear, say it all the time under the meme that God’s law, prophecies, whatever, trump man and countries laws….and it’s based on their biblical beliefs about Jews, Israel and the second coming.

          You can theorize about the intersection of politics and religion since time began till hell freezes over……but you can’t wrap them all in some neat ball and say it’s always a political bent that dictates their religion instead of visa versa. Sometime it may one reason, sometimes the other.
          For the CZs there is no render unto God what is God’s and unto Caesar what is Caesar’s…it’s all render unto their apocalyptic bible view of God and to hell with the world. The only use they have for politics is to work for christian beliefs domination and conversion until that day comes.

        • W.Jones says:

          American,

          I feel that you don’t understand what I am saying. This is made harder by the fact maybe that the comments section does not order itself clear and chronologically like it used to.

          It feels like we are just saying the same things to eachother without you understanding what I mean. I am not explaining myself clearly enough.

          You hear the CZs talk about religion, use religious terms and thinking, see them energized by their religion, and think that’s all there is to it. But this does not explain _why_ they developed this CZ religion, why this CZ religion caught hold so well. It does not explain what caused this CZ religion to spread so much among Evangelicals.

          It is like Plato’s cave. The images and shadows are on the cave wall, but this does not explain what is making those images and shadows- the ideology in the person’s mind.

          Marx said that existence determines consciousness. He envisioned that religion was developed by underlying societal and economic material factors. Now perhaps you disagree about this and accept the belief in divine revelation. But either way, when you see that a religious movement has developed contrary to the original religion itself, then you need to explain why it did that. For example, did the CZs just get smart and figure things out right? And this just made so much good sense everyone else understood it too?

          Otherwise, you need to explain what are the factors spreading the movement if you want to understand what it the real source and motivation for the religion.

          I should add that you gave a good example in your previous message when you asked what would happen if the CZ’s ideology in REALITY turned on them. They would obviously CHANGE their BELIEFS. That is because the reality would have CHANGED and thus made their beliefs change. So you have to ask yourself what is the reality NOW making their beliefs CZ? Obviously, the current REALITY is making CZ appealing to them. The reality of a superpower connected with the establishment is appealing to them. This is the obvious political, factual motivation behind their acceptance of this religion in the first place.

          And then you want to look at CZionism all by itself without considering other examples of times when people took opposite religious positions based on their politics:
          ((“But that still doesn’t explain how people with certain societal backgrounds (pro-establishment, pro-slavery, etc) choose among a range of viewpoints within those topics”
          WJ, I just grabbed your quote above to say that I think you are comparing ‘everything to everything’……whereas I am talking specifically about the motivation of christian zionist.))
          The point of the pro-slavery example is because I want you to understand what I am talking about when I say that people’s beliefs can be based on their politics and real social situation instead of just “good impartial thinking”.

          How come one side believed in all the supposed religious justifications for slavery and another one didn’t believe religion justified them? Their society was the underlying motivation for what they actually believed and explained in religious terms.

          Now I think Christianity really is antislavery. So when someone develops a “Christian slavery ideology” I find it best to explain what were the motivations behind this movement.

          And this is a good example, because you need to explain why some right wing protestants accept the CZ ideology and others don’t care about it or disagree with it (like Missouri Synod Lutherans).

          You commented: ((That fact of the matter is some people will A. ” actually base their politics on religion” and some will B. ‘use religion to justify’ their politics.))
          Of course. But if you stop there, you fail to explain _WHY_ people in group A find that part of the religion so important to them, or WHY that religious belief developed and took hold in the religion and in society.
          So for someone who says they religiously belief strongly against abortion so they will only vote for anti-abortion politicians, it is worth considering why that person cares so muich about that specific issue, when other Catholics and Protestants do not feel so strongly about it. There is something in their own reality or underlying way of thinking that makes them accept this belief in the first place.

          Perhaps abortion is a weak example, because Catholicism really is against it. But when you have two groups of people in the same religion taking opposite religious positions (like the CZ movement vs traditional christianity, or slavery vs antislavery), then it’s even more important to understand why this religious thinking caught hold among such a large group of people when it goes against the basics of the religion itself.

          You commented: ((I know Methodist and Catholics and other individuals who are just as right wing, conservative, pro life, pro defense and all that.)) Well those people would probably be more susceptible to joining the CZ movement than people who were big peacenik catholics. And in fact, they probably do have some CZ people among them as well.
          Yes, you have given a counter example. One reason why Catholics are much less likely to be CZs is because Catholicism is a much more traditional religion, while the evangelical movement doesn’t care as much about “Tradition” and therefore can take on newer religious ideas, which we could discuss more at length if you want. And then again we can talk about what are the societal reasons for Catholicism and evangelicalism in the first place.

          But in any case, you find that once you open the door by allowing people to decide their religion for themselves, you are going to see people making decisions about religion based on their underlying values.

          You commented: ((The difference between the extreme right wing politics of some Christians and the CZs is that none of them go so far as to advocate or believe that their allegiance to Israel should come above the US…..which is what the CZ leaders and their followers do…..they say it loud and clear, say it all the time under the meme that God’s law, prophecies, whatever, trump man and countries laws….and it’s based on their biblical beliefs about Jews, Israel and the second coming))
          Yes, you understand that CZ apocalyptic religion –> determines –> CZ politics/voting.
          But you should go a step further and ask what is causing them to choose their CZ apocalyptic religion in the first place.

          You have been able to understand what they are telling you about the religious reasons why they vote certain ways. But you should go a step further- to what they aren’t aware of themselves- why they made their choice to accept and dedicate themselves to those apocalyptic CZ religious beliefs in the first place.

          PS. As to the “difference” mentioned in your quote above you are again understandably confused. You need to ask yourself if this extreme religious idea is in some way a reflection of at least some aspect of the underlying political situation.

        • john h says:

          Just to repeat what I said here on this yesterday:

          It [Christian Zionism] is more likely to be held by conservative right-wingers because it is easier to fit into that view or mindset than [it is] into the left-wing one.

      • American says:

        I don’t know why some of you want to insist the Christian zios are the real force behind Israel policy. It’s simply not true. And I am not disputing it because I want to ‘blame the Israel problem” all on the Jew’s Zionistas, the christian zios do add something to it but not nearly what they credited with. The Christian zios among the regular non zio right wing ‘Christians” have zilch real effect on actual US policy toward Israel. Their collective political influence is at best limited to some politicians in the right wing and none in the liberal wing. And the last thing I am doing is defending these freaks. I think they are crazy and they are all about Christian DOMINATION, they want the US to be Christian State in the same way Israel is a Jewish state.
        But since we are on their relationship with Jewish Zionism let’s look at the facts of what the Christian zios are and aren’t.

        From the 60 Minutes Expose on Christian Zionist

        link to cbsnews.com

        (excerpt)
        What propels them? Why do they love Israel so much? The return of the Jews to their ancient homeland is seen by Evangelicals as a precondition for the Second Coming of Christ. Therefore, when the Jewish state was created in 1948 they saw it as a sign.
        Israel’s conquest of Jerusalem and the West Bank in 1967 also deepened their excitement and heightened their anticipation. And today’s war between Jews and Arabs was also prophesied, they say. They’ve seen it all before – in the pages of the Bible.

        “The Bible does not contain the word of God,” says Ed McAteer. “Listen to me closely. The Bible is the word of God.” McAteer is known as the Godfather of the Christian Right. He’s a former Colgate marketing executive from Memphis, and a founder of the Moral Majority.
        McAteer believes that the current situation is the beginning of the final battle. “I believe that we are seeing prophecy unfold so rapidly and dramatically and wonderfully and, without exaggerating, makes me breathless.”

        “The Jews need conversion,” says Kay Arthur. “They need to know that the Messiah is coming. And the Bible tells us what’s going to happen.” Arthur heads an organization called Precept Ministries in Chattanooga, Tenn. She brings thousands of pilgrims to the Holy Land.
        The Christian fundamentalists believe the only Israelis who are really listening to God are the hard line Jewish settlers who live on the West Bank and Gaza and refuse to move. The Christians trudge up to these settlements as if they were making pilgrimages to holy shrines. That’s because they and the settlers share a core conviction.
        In fact, many fundamentalists believe that when Prime Minister Rabin signed the Oslo accords and offered to trade land for peace, it was not only a mistake, it was a sin.
        “They were going against the word of God. You cannot go against the word of God. And I believe that God stopped it … by the things that happened.” says Arthur. She hints that God punished Rabin by assassinating him. “I think that God did not want that Oslo Accord to go through.”>>>>>>>>

        Then we have the Christian Zio leaders claiming they have 70 million followers to make themselves seems like a real force to be reckoned with. But actually they only matter as voters to a few politicians. In fact the Christian zios aren’t even major Churches or recognized “religions” they are mostly “ministries”.
        If you look at the US Census last estimates of religion in 2008 it is impossible for the Christian Zio ministries to have the numbers they claim.
        The Census stats show the total number of Christians and then breaks them down to among all churches and Christian, Protestant faiths and then breaks down all other religions by numbers. There are an estimated 173 million (adult) (children not counted) Christians with 33 different Church affiliated religions listed. The 4 major religions in the US ; Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian make up almost half of all Christian identifications. Of the Christians identifications that number around 16 million and don’t name a denomination you can count a 1001 African American off shoots, mainly from Baptist for them in the Bible Belt, and others that established local Church or ministry groups. Non Christian religions, everything from Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, native Indian etc., account for 8 million in the US. Then you have another US 2 million that aren’t religious at all.
        So where the hell are all the Christian zios? If you look at every religion listed and it’s numbers and exclude the obvious like Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran and etc. they aren’t 70 million or even 10 million Christian zios anywhere. It’s hype. They are a fringe, like any lunatic fringe, they make a lot noise pursuing their beliefs and promoting themselves.

        link to census.gov

        Then if you look at the faiths of the other majority Churches and their Church’s official stand on Zionism and Israel the Christian zios recede even further.

        *Denomination Date Body Title, quote, and link to resolution or position

        Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod April 2004 Commission on Theology and Church Relations A Lutheran Response to the “Left Behind Series”
        “The clear witness of the New Testament is that the person of Jesus Christ is the interpretive key to the Old Testament, and indeed to all of Scripture.” …

        Presbyterian Church USA July 2004 General Assembly (national) On Confronting Christian Zionism
        “Christian Zionism promotes a theology that justifies grievous violations of basic rights of people who are also made in the image of God, and is contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ.” ….

        Reformed Church in America June 2004 Annual Synod (national) Christian Zionism: A Historical Analysis and Critique
        “Jesus, picking up seminal themes from the Hebrew scriptures, preached and lived a message of reconciliation… ”

        United Church of Christ July 2003 General Synod (national) An Alternative Voice to Christian Zionism
        “We believe that the tenets of Christian Zionism neither reflect the intention of the teachings of Jesus and the prophets, nor promote peace in the Middle East, and respectfully recommend …and alternative voice to this theology.”

        Mennonite Church USA July 2005 MCC Peace Office Newsletter Christian Zionism and Peace in the Holy Land
        “A widespread but erroneous belief is that Christian Zionists…read Daniel and Revelation literally. They do not. No Christian Zionist applies a consistently literal interpretation to Revelation. No one has suggested that Jesus was really a lamb.” …

        Evangelical Lutheran Church in America June 2005 Chicago Metropolitan Synod Resolution to Encourage the Study of Christian Zionism
        “…the movement of Christian Zionism based on these biblical interpretations seeks to influence U.S. policy toward Israel in a manner that would arguably facilitate mistreatment of Palestinians, continued occupation of the land, opposition to a two-state solution, and exclusive Israeli control of Jerusalem…

        United Methodist Church June 2005 IL Conference On Unwrapping the Rapture
        “…every …household should give prayerful consideration as to how God will actually judge us for our silence about and complicity in the crushing of the Palestinian people…

        Episcopal Church November 2004 Diocese of Chicago Confronting Christian Zionism
        “A partial response to Christian Zionism would be to say that we read Scripture in light of [Jesus'] two great commandments – to love God and our neighbor.”

        • patm says:

          “The Christian zios among the regular non zio right wing ‘Christians” have zilch real effect on actual US policy toward Israel.”

          I expect you’re right about this, American. Their real effect is in Israel, where they provide moral and financial support to the illegal settlers.

          They may be ill-educated and uninformed but they are fanatics. Follow the money trail, I say.

        • American says:

          From what I’ve read you’re right patm….most of their funds and efforts are given to the settlers. Should’t be allowed since the settlements are ‘officialy’ against US policy.

      • dahoit says:

        Zionists are tolerant?Similar wackos stick together.Evangelicals are just moonie loonies in modern guise.

  6. Potsherd2 says:

    Who knows? Maybe the XtoZionists will convert to Judaism and move wholesale to Israel.

  7. seafoid says:

    US Zionist Jews are a disgrace. It’s not their country they are destroying through their blind allegiance to the settlers. It is Israel, the Jewish state, that they are destroying. Schocken knows this. He knows his descendants will probably have to live somewhere else. He has more to lose than Dershowitz. It’s not a game for Israel’s middle class.

  8. Cliff says:

    Paging the Zionist short-bus! Antisemitism alert!

  9. American says:

    Jesus!…..just when you think you can’t possibly get any more disgusted with the sheer f’ing pettiness of these Israel fanatics in the US congress. They are like cockroaches swarming on any crumb that hits the floor. Totally f”ing pointless, someone in Palestine will help the released prisoners to homes regardless of US money or not. Israel claims it’s “AT WAR” with Palestine and or Hamas, well if that’s the case these are POWs who were released…..get over it and go____ yourselves.

    Congressmen ask GAO to check Palestine Investment Fund
    November 25, 2011

    WASHINGTON (JTA) — Two Democrats in Congress want the body’s investigative arm to look into how U.S. funds are spent by the Palestine Investment Fund.

    Reps. Ted Deutch (D-Fla.) and Steve Israel (D-N.Y.) wrote to the General Accounting Office this week, asking it to consider reports that the Palestinian Authority plans to use PIF money to fund homes for prisoners released last month in exchanged for Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier held captive by Hamas for more than five years.

    “Many of the released prisoners were convicted of orchestrating and carrying out Hamas-sponsored terrorist attacks in Israel, including the bombing of a Tel Aviv nightclub that killed 21 people, the attack on a Netanya hotel that killed 29 people, and the bombing of a Sbarro Pizzeria that killed 15 people,” said the letter, noting that U.S. agencies have contributed $243 million to the PIF’s Affordable Mortgage and Loan program.

    The letter also asks the GAO to establish whether U.S. funds have been used by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on his quest to achieve international recognition of Palestinian statehood in the absence of negotiations with Israel

  10. Mooser says:

    I really, really don’t like the way the guy in the painting is looking at that nanny-goat.
    Somebody should be keeping an eye on him, before something horribly abusive occurs.

    • annie says:

      you’re in wonderful form today mooser. i’m going to head on over to your archive page and copy your recent posts for the sake of prosperity. laughter is the best medicine.

      • Mooser says:

        “posts for the sake of prosperity.”

        Well, I got $60 loan for my comments, but if you can do better with them, have at it.

        Which reminds me, I need to make good on that.

        • LeaNder says:

          Well, I got $60 loan for my comments

          thoroughly well earned, and no it’s not a loan, it’s a thank you.

          I just noticed my star is gone too, same, same as with Hostage’s.

        • Mooser says:

          “thoroughly well earned, and no it’s not a loan, it’s a thank you.”

          Hmmm, then let’s just say the comments are the “vigorish” but I’ll have to make good on the principle, someday.

      • American says:

        “laughter is the best medicine.”

        Listed in my ‘what I have learned from Mooser’.

        Difference number 10 between a Jew and a Zionist is a sense of humor.

    • LeaNder says:

      I really, really don’t like the way the guy in the painting is looking
      What is hovering on his right side? Is that why you use nanny-goat? Unfortunately we can’t take a closer look.

      New Yorker, The Dissenters: Elsewhere there are Adi Nes’s homoerotic photographs of Israeli soldiers and, in Schocken’s office, a huge canvas, by the Palestinian artist Durar Bacri, of an Arab man and a goat. During the second intifada, a time of suicide bombings and military incursions, Schocken put up a painting, by David Reeb, of soldiers in combat, with the bitingly ironic banner “LETS HAVE ANOTHER WAR.”

      Maybe we should ask Durar Bacri, about the Whatzit on the right, or is it more in the background. The only thing I can guess at, is that it is another goat trying to eat leaves of the tree. Nanny-goat could indeed look in that direction. With the guy preventing her from having a meal herself.

  11. radii says:

    gutsy guy … nice to see the owner of a major journalistic enterprise, anywhere, still committed to the truth as based upon the facts

  12. Les says:

    He uses “Jewish Lobby” when he means the American Jewish branch of the “Israel Lobby.” If there is such a thing as a Jewish Lobby created to support Israel at all costs, what does one call those Jews who disagree?

    • American says:

      “what does one call those Jews who disagree?”

      According to eee, our resident zio spokesperson they would be called..Not Jews.

    • Sand says:

      Les: “…He uses “Jewish Lobby” when he means the American Jewish branch of the “Israel Lobby.” If there is such a thing as a Jewish Lobby created to support Israel at all costs, what does one call those Jews who disagree?.

      I don’t know. I’m still waiting to hear that massive group that has that authentic anti-zionist voice? There are some brave souls — not many, but there are some. Like Sylvia Schwarz of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, some members of the Jewish Voices for Peace, Medea Benjamin – Code Pink, and others. When competing against the Jewish Zionist force out there overt and covert there’s not that many.

      link to mondoweiss.net

      There’s also the ‘American Council for Judaism’ who have to fight off the frauds like J-Street and others. I keep looking.

      NYTimes Article: American Jews Who Reject Zionism Say Events Aid Cause (06/25/10)
      link to nytimes.com

      ‘American Council for Judaism’
      link to acjna.org

      • Sand says:

        I should qualify “appears, there’s not that many” i.e. when looking at self-identified Jewish polls.

        Also, another fact I didn’t know:

        75% of North American Jews [become] members of congregations at some point in their lifetime…”

        Taken from: Synagogue Renewal and the Role of Federations
        By Ron Wolfson, Lawrence A. Hoffman
        Jewish Communal Service Association of North America (JCSA), Winter 2010
        link to bjpa.org

    • Krauss says:

      I think the appropriate word may be ‘self-hater’ or perhaps ‘anti-Semite’.

      • Chaos4700 says:

        I forgot, Israelis tend to expel people who don’t heil.

        So you think this honest man is the anti-Semite, and not this hateful man masquerading as a rabbi?

      • tree says:

        I think the appropriate word may be ‘self-hater’ or perhaps ‘anti-Semite’.

        No, those are exactly the wrong words. It would be as if you called a white anti-segregationist a “self-hater” or a “bigot”. As if believing in equality between ethnicities and races made you somehow not “white” enough, or “ashamed” of your whiteness. Utterly stupid and demeaning to white people. And, frankly, using the terms “self-hater” or “Anti-Semite”to refer to Jews who disagree with Israel is demeaning to Jews, despite the fact that mostly the terms are used by Zionist Jews who apparently believe that all Jews must think alike in order to be Jews. (Which is of itself an anti-semitic belief. Go figure. Its all an elaborate case of projection, if you ask me.)

  13. This one is a gamechanger, Amos Hocken rocks.

  14. Mooser it’s nice to see where your mind is focused, as in politics you and yours are always in the gutter.

    • Mooser says:

      “Mooser it’s nice to see where your mind is focused, as in politics you and yours are always in the gutter.”

      Well, I was raised around a lot of guttural language, you know. But since you butted in, I’m perfectly willing to accept that your relationship with your children’s nanny is pure and above reproach.

      • ToivoS says:

        I must say that I first wondered what that warrior had in mind with the goat. My imagination, being less open than Moosers, was that he he was just going to shoot it (with his rifle, of course). Now that the gutter possibly has been opened — oh Mooser you have such a nasty imagination — I think that bad man is considering nailing that poor artiodactyl with his spear.

        • LeaNder says:

          Toivo S: shoot it (with his rifle,

          Is it a rifle, he carries over his shoulder? That’s what it looks like on first sight.

          atime*: Mooser it’s nice to see where your mind is focused

          Did abusive trigger imagination that you cannot even allow yourself to enter your mind? Mooser obviously necessarily has more sympathy for artiodactyl creatures. …

          Are you suggesting that the nanny-goat could be Silvia ????

  15. RoHa says:

    As soon as I saw the headline, I decided to accuse Schocken of being an anti-Semite.

    Then I read the article and saw it had already been done.

  16. Patrick says:

    Regardless of Schocken’s grasp of U.S. politics, he has a crystal clear view of his own country’s intentions with regard to the Palestinians. It’s rare to see Israel’s objectives expressed so candidly. For me, this is the most powerful passage in the article:

    “And with regard to the Palestinians living in [the occupied territories] – those who did not flee or were not expelled – they must be subjected to a harsh regime that will encourage their flight, eventuate in their expulsion, deprive them of their rights, and bring about a situation in which those who remain will not be even second-class citizens, and their fate will be of interest to no one. They will be like the Palestinian refugees of the War of Independence; that is their desired status.”

  17. Taxi says:

    … In this case, mister Schocken should put his money where his mouth is and leave occupied Palestine.

    That’s more effective than just writing an article about it: mere words that will just recede way back into the consciousness a mere 24 hours after publication.

    In fact every euro isreali who’s crashed into the truth should just abandon the Apartheid experiment emotionally and physically and never look back:

    • ToivoS says:

      I happen to be extremely critical of the Zionist experiment in Palestine. However I feel strongly that there are many Israeli Jews who still believe in a real multicultural society there. I hope people like Schocken succeed in building the new society.

      • Taxi says:

        Toivos,
        Should the so-called multicultural israeli jews you speak of live in Palestine against the wishes of the natives and in place of the Palestinian diaspora?

        Personally, I think not.

  18. stevelaudig says:

    am I missing something or is it a feature of Christian endtimes theology that the Jews must perish for the Christians to perish in order to get to heaven. Once you strip away all the bs that is what it boils down to. So anything that increases war, disastrous, end of the world type war is a good thing. by their thinking, or reasoning, or whatever you call such delusionalism. I’ll sit in the back.

    • patm says:

      “…is it a feature of Christian endtimes theology that the Jews must perish for the Christians to perish in order to get to heaven.”

      No, Jews must convert to Christianity in order to get to heaven.

  19. Taxi says:

    “Jews must convert to Christianity in order to get to heaven.”

    You mean must be ‘perfected’ by the christian talibanis themselves, or else.

    Hey you gotta admit that civic politics is dirty, but the filthiest of all is religious politics.

    • patm says:

      “Hey you gotta admit that civic politics is dirty, but the filthiest of all is religious politics.”

      Yep, I do admit it.

      I’ve just had a thought about the medieval crusades. All the rhetoric surrounding them was about religion, yet the politics was all about expanding empires.

      • seanmcbride says:

        Religions (especially Abrahamic religions) often serve as the pretext for waging war against, looting and exterminating cult outsiders. The psychologocial and cultural mechanism is on full display in numerous passages in the Old Testament. The name of the game is to work up followers into a self-righteous murderous hypnotic trance.

      • dahoit says:

        Well,their empires in Europe,if they could be called that,Holy Roman Empire notwithstanding,were little feudal states,so I think they were just interested in gold.
        And the children,King Louis(Saint),and the other pious religious folk were just dupes for the gold seekers.Sounds familiar.

        • patm says:

          “…so I think they were just interested in gold.”

          Little feudal states like Britain and France needed gold to expand, dahoit.

          And the children,King Louis(Saint),and the other pious religious folk were just dupes for the gold seekers. Sounds familiar.

          Yes, all familiar, depressingly so.

  20. Sand says:

    OK, I think the picture is getting a little clearer. Also, may others can jump in and provide more information?

    I must admit, I didn’t bother to follow the Christian Zionist movement much after Bush left, as I assumed the Zionists in the Democratic Party where going to be the center of attention (pulling the strings). But, now it looks as if Zionists from both parties were operating in tandem all along — regardless who was in power. Which seems to be why Debbie Wasserman-Schultz of the DNC, Steve Israel (DCCC), (not Patty Murray of the DSCC!), and David Harris (‘Israel is a litmus test to American Jews) of the NJDC didn’t want the obvious collusion going on ~ supporting Israel regardless ~ when they met up with Netanyahu and the RJC. OK — Christian Zionists money is v. much why the settlements are thriving — which is a benefit to BOTH Republican and Democrat Jewish Zionists.

    link to rjchq.org

    AIPAC as well as the rest of the I-Lobby (including pro-Israel Zionists PAC’s) deal with getting the Zionist politicians in power. The Christian Zionists (notably Republicans) do have a part ot play but seems to be really down to providing the $$$. They appear to have v. little say how the $$$ is managed? John Hagee being the ultimate Charlatan – joke and paid tool of the Israeli right?

    The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews
    link to ifcj.org

    The IFCJ doesn’t Lobby as I can see (maybe somebody else knows more about these guys)? AIPAC and the Jewish federations seem to do that. I can see why the IFCJ wants to stay under the radar when it’s collecting $$$ (under a false pretext) from idiots, where it’s quickly funneled over to Israel. Once that money $$$ arrives in Israel what power do the IRS, or any US financial jurisdiction have over where that money goes and how it’s spent? Does anyone really think the Israelis have the same intentions as the Christian Zionists?

    Jonathan Tobin in 2004: “…The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews (www.ifcj.org) has been around for two decades, operating on the margins of the Jewish world but deeply embedded in the hearts of evangelicals.

    Founded by Chicago-based Yechiel Eckstein, an Orthodox rabbi, and intended to be a partnership between Jews and non-Jews, some 98 percent to 99 percent of its money now comes from the Christian right.

    Where does the money go? To the same sort of programs that dollars raised by local Jewish federations across the country: to aid in the immigration and absorption of Jews to Israel, and to help care for needy Jews and endangered Jewish communities in places like the former Soviet Union, much of it via the Jewish Agency for Israel and the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee…”

    link to jewishworldreview.com

    OK, that seems to make sense… From Donald Wagner (via Theocracy Watch link – a site I often visited when Bush was in power):

    “…Likud also turned to the Christian Zionists for help in offsetting the dramatic decline in contributions to Israel from the American Jewish establishment during the conflict between the Orthodox and Reform-Conservative branches of Judaism. When the latter cut back on their contributions to the Jewish National Fund in the late 1990s, several Christian Zionist-oriented churches were asked to make up the difference. The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, led by a former Anti-Defamation League employee and Orthodox rabbi, Yechiel Eckstein, claimed to have raised over $5 million, mostly from fundamentalist Christian sources. ..”

    link to informationclearinghouse.info

    It’s now up to over $95 million — what idiots!

    link to ifcj.org

    Both Republicans and Zionist Democrats are fawning over Netanyahu (Likud).

    • MRW says:

      One of the NGOs working in Chad claimed a few years ago that all the donations for Durfur go to the Israeli settlements. Millions of dollars laundered through charities. None goes to Darfur.

    • Rusty Pipes says:

      There are many good sources on CUFI. You probably are already familiar with many of them.
      Right Web
      Challenging Christian Zionism (Don Wagner’s site)
      Talk to Action (Bruce Wilson did an excellent series on CUFI in 2008)
      Max Blumenthal

      Right Web tracks the funding from many of the large American traditionally right-wing donors and foundations, but doesn’t have as much information about hardline Zionist funders (Like Saban or the Ahmanson Foundation). I think that some of that information may have been touched upon at Talk to Action back in 2008, but I don’t know how current it is.

  21. Israel is not an apartheid regime. In fact it is quite the opposite. It’s laughable that it is illegal for Jews to own any property in Jordan. Now that is Apartheid!

    • Shmuel says:

      it is illegal for Jews to own any property in Jordan

      False.

      According to the US Department of State, 2006 International Religious Freedom Report:

      The [Jordanian] Government recognizes Judaism as a religion; however there are reportedly no Jordanian citizens who are Jewish. The Government does not impose restrictions on Jews, and they are permitted to own property and conduct business in the country.

      Source: link to thehasbarabuster.blogspot.com

      • I counter your propaganda with some of my own.

        link to elderofziyon.blogspot.com

        Jews cannot buy property in Jordan. Give it a try :) See what the results are.

        • Shmuel says:

          Hmm. An unequivocal statement in a US Department of State report vs. an article by an associate director and research director of CAMERA, who confuses Israeli citizens, “aliens” and Jews, and cites repealed laws. I wonder which one we should believe?

          Distraction over. Now what was Schocken saying about Israeli apartheid?

        • annie says:

          i really wish the ziobots here wouldn’t keep linking to elderofzionracist.blogspot.com

          it’s trolling and should be banned under the comment policy.

        • tree says:

          Jews cannot buy property in Jordan.

          Why do we keep having to debunk this stuff over and over again. As has already been made clear numerous times before, Jordan has no restrictions on anyone, regardless of his or her religion or ethnicity, becoming a citizen of Jordanas long as he/she is willing to follow the normal naturalization procedures, as the US State Department points out.

          As to foreigners buying land, Jordan has a reciprocal agreement law. Any citizen of a country that allows Jordanian citizens to purchase land in their country is allowed to buy land in Jordan. Israeli Jews can not buy land in Jordan because Israel does not allow Jordanians to buy land in Israel. American Jews or European Jews ARE allowed to purchase land in Jordan just as any other citizen of those countries can.

          The really galling thing about seeing this falsity of MN’s repeated yet again, is that it isn’t just ignorance, its purposeful deceit. Right-wing Israelis KNOW that American and European Jews can buy land in Jordan because they attempted to get European Jews to buy land in Jordan as fronts for the Israel Land Fund in 2009 :

          link to israelnationalnews.com

          This is around the same time that elder of ziyon posted his cant about Jews not being able to buy in Jordan. They know its false. They know they are conflating restrictions on Israelis with restrictions on Jews. They lie. They don’t care. Maybe they can’t help themselves.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          We have to keep debunking this stuff over and over again because the moderators aren’t doing their jobs.

        • annie says:

          chaos, i can’t stand the elderracistzion links but i have to admit this time it was worth it for trees post. i already knew that, about them trying to buy up land in jordan but this time i am saving the link.

          and.. for a double whammy it completely segues with an earlier post of mine today where i wrote (to teta)by not doing anything we can guarantee my grandchildren will inherit this mess. if (big if) israel succeeds in ethnically cleansing palestine jordan is next. because, for the religious fanatics (like the ones on this site who like to reference ‘the Land of Israel’) we all know that includes jordan. how uncurious it will be when rockets will be launched (false flag style ) into the ‘jewish’ jordan valley ..a few of those false flags and then they will require a ‘bufferzone’ on the other side of the jordan river (which is no longer a river thanks to israel) for israel ‘security’. if we don’t stop this now in fifty years our children will be right where we are today but it won’t be over jerusalem or WB, it will be over :

          When the land of Israel was apportioned among the tribes in the days of Joshua, the Tribe of Levi, being priests, did not receive land (Joshua 13:33, (14:3). However; the tribe of Levi was given cities. Six cities were given to the tribe as refuge cities for all men of Israel and they were to be controlled by the Levites. Three of these cities were located on each side of the Jordan River.

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          This movement culminated in the 20th century with the creation of the present State of Israel, largely within the borders of the biblical “Land of Israel”, although the original core areas, the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel and Judah, are, somewhat ironically, often considered outside the core of present-day Israel.

          from wiki’s History of the Jews in Jordan link to en.wikipedia.org

          According to the Hebrew Bible three of the Israelites’ ancient tribes lived on the territory that is today known as Jordan: The Tribe of Reuben, the Tribe of Gad and the Tribe of Manasseh.

          The Tribe of Reuben was allocated the territory immediate east of the Dead Sea, reaching from the Arnon river in the south, and as far north as the Dead Sea stretched, with an eastern border vaguely defined by the land dissolving into desert; the territory included the plain of Madaba.

          The exact border between Reuben and the Tribe of Gad, generally considered to have been situated to the north of Reuben, is somewhat vague in the Bible, with Dibon and Aroer being part of Gad according to Numbers 32:34, but part of Reuben according to Joshua 13:15-16. On that basis, some have suggested that the territory of Reuben was an enclave in the territory of Gad.[2]

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          The Tribe of Gad was allocated a region to the east of the River Jordan, though the exact location is ambiguous.[2]

          “The border was Jazer, and all the cities of Gilead, and half the land of the children of Ammon, unto Aroer that is before Rabbah; and from Heshbon unto Ramath-mizpeh, and Betonim; and from Mahanaim unto the border of Lidbir and in the valley, Beth-haram, and Beth-nimrah, and Succoth, and Zaphon, the rest of the kingdom of Sihon king of Heshbon, the Jordan being the border thereof, unto the uttermost part of the sea of Chinnereth beyond the Jordan eastward.”

          Among the cities mentioned in Numbers 32:34 as having at some point been part of territory of the Tribe of Gad were Ramoth, Jaezer, Aroer, and Dibon, though some of these are marked in Joshua 13:15-16 as belonging to Reuben.

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          The western half-tribe occupied the land to the immediate north of Ephraim, in the centre of western Canaan, between the Jordan and the coast, with the Tribe of Issachar to the north, the north west corner being at Mount Carmel; the eastern half-tribe was the northernmost Israelite group on the east of the Jordan, occupying the land north of the tribe of Gad, extending from the Mahanaim in the south to Mount Hermon in the north, and including within it the whole of Bashan. These territories abounded in water, a precious commodity in Canaan, and thus constituted one of the most valuable parts of the country; additionally, Manasseh’s geographic situation enabled it to defend two important mountain passes – Esdraelon on the west of the Jordan and Hauran on the east.

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          we need to stop the expansionist dead in their tracks.

        • Chaos4700 says:

          Oh Jordan is on the list either way. Israel may even bump it up the list since Lebanon is proving to be resistant to Israeli invasion. They may go after Syria if Western covert action ends up toppling the regime there (I’m no fan of the current Syrian regime, but at least they’re not an American puppet and thus I am not bankrolling with my tax money what they do to their people there). If Syria is fractured into chaos, Israel may consider another expansion in that direction as well.

          People seem to forget — the mad dream of “Eretz Israel” extends all the way into Iraq as far as Zionist ideology is concerned. Israel isn’t going to stop for anything, whether or not they commit a successful genocide on the Palestinians.

        • RE: “Why do we keep having to debunk this stuff over and over again.” ~ tree

          MY REPLY: Because you are essentially dealing with members of a cult. They only believe what they are told by their cult leaders (like ‘Elder of Ziyon’). Consequently, debunking this stuff over and over again will not work.
          Cult members usually must be “deprogrammed” before they will seriously consider information from sources other than their erstwhile cult leaders. Until then, you might say they are “crippled inside”.

          A MID-AUTUMN EVENING’S MUSICAL INTERLUDE, brought to you by the makers of new Ziocaine X-treme®:

          “…You can shine your shoes and wear a suit.
          You can comb your hair and look quite cute
          You can hide your face behind a smile
          One thing you can’t hide
          Is when you’re crippled inside…”
          ~ John Lennon,

          John Lennon: “Crippled Inside” (VIDEO, 03:56) – link to youtube.com

        • P.S. If new Ziocaine X-treme® doesn’t “tickle your fancy”, you might want to try a gramme or so of Soma®. Take a holiday from reality whenever you like, and come back without so much as a headache or a mythology. There is always Soma®, delicious Soma®, half a gramme for a half-holiday, a gramme for a week-end, two grammes for a trip to the gorgeous East, three for an eternity on the Dark Side of the Moon*!

          “…Home
          Home again
          I like to be here
          When I can
          ~
          When I come home
          Cold and tired
          It’s good to warm my bones
          Beside the fire
          ~
          Far away
          Across the field
          Tolling on the iron bell
          Calls the faithful to their knees
          And hear the softly spoken magic spell”
          ~ Pink Floyd

          * Pink Floyd: Time (VIDEO, 06:39) – link to youtube.com

        • P.S. “…Oh
          The rules have changed today (Hey)
          I have no place to stay (Hey)
          I’m thinking about the subway (Hey)
          My love has flown away (Hey)
          My tears have come and gone (Hey)
          Oh my Lord, I have to roam (Hey)
          I have no home (Hey)
          I have no home (Hey)
          ~
          Now the time has come (Time)
          There’s no place to run (Time)
          I might get burned up by the sun (Time)
          But I had my fun (Time)
          I’ve been loved and put aside (Time)
          I’ve been crushed by the tumbling tide (Time)
          And my soul has been psychedelicized (Time)…”

          The Chambers Brothers : Time Has Come Today (VIDEO, 10:00) – link to youtube.com

        • RE: “Because you are essentially dealing with members of a
          cult.” ~ me, above

          SEE: Disengaging from Zionism, by Kristoffer Larsson, Dissident Voice, 12/07/11

          …I came to think of Goldstone’s destiny as I was reading “Beyond Tribal Loyalties: Personal Stories of Jewish Peace Activists”. The book is an anthology with contributions from 25 Jewish activists living in different parts of the world who have come to see the conflict from the Palestinian point of view. For most Jews, criticising Israel comes at a price – relatives and Jewish friends regard it as treason, they are accused of being self-hating, and in some cases even of paving the way for another Holocaust…
          This culture of intolerance is well captured by American musician Rich Siegel when he describes himself as “a cult survivor.” There is something “very seriously wrong with Israel, and with the culture that supports it,” he writes.

          ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to dissidentvoice.org

    • Chaos4700 says:

      Would be nice if you could make a case without lying. But that’s Zionism.

    • Whatever it is, it isn’t apartheid. For that you have to visit Israel.

  22. Obama has joined two other presidents, Lyndon Johnson and George W. Bush in giving immunity to Israelis who kill US citizens, so stopping a settlement is out of the question for him. The only way that Palestine can be recognized as a state is to go before the entire UN and have the entire body vote on statehood. The three members of the quartet, England, France and the US have basically spit on the graves of the soldiers who died in WWII protecting those who were occupied by a military force. In today’s world the “French Freedom fighters” would be considered terrorists,and Cameron would not call his people to action. Sarkozy and Cameron can’t decide whether occupation is good or bad, so they obstain. They would have been called “Quislings” rather than leaders, during WWII. Obama has already given up his moral values in exchange for the Jewish vote and IPAC funding. The Palestinians need to realize that “the quartet” just like the US will never be an honest broker. Sarkozy and Cameron will look to Obama for direction, and after the last UN speech Obama gave, he’s happy to shine his Badge of Honor given to him by BeBe. Those in the quartet have forgotten the soldiers who gave their lives to stop the Third Reich, and by their actions they dishonor those who fought to liberate those living under a hostile occupation. History is repeating itself in this conflict, but there is no Churchill, no Roosevelt, no leadership from the West. No Obama will not stop the settlements, who knows, he may even have one named after him.

  23. RoHa says:

    “The three members of the quartet, England, France and the US”

    England is not a member of the quartet by itself. The whole of Britain is a member, so the moral responsibility extends to Scotland and Wales as well.

    • john h says:

      No, RoHa, the whole of Britain is not a member, but part of the member called “the European Union”, as is France, midnightchild. The other three members are the US, Russia, and, incredibly, the UN.

      link to en.wikipedia.org

      I liked this from you, midnightschild:

      Sarkozy and Cameron can’t decide whether occupation is good or bad, so they abstain. They would have been called “Quislings” rather than leaders, during WWII. Obama has already given up his moral values in exchange for the Jewish vote and AIPAC funding.

      My call on that recently was “Chamberlainism”.

      link to mondoweiss.net (my post about 25 down)

      • RoHa says:

        You are right. I stand partially corrected.

        Britain is not a member itself, but the moral responsibility does extend to Wales and Scotland. It is not just England that is involved.