Phoenix Jewish columnist says Obama’s complaint about Netanyahu made American Jews feel unsafe

Israel/PalestineUS Politics
on 115 Comments

I have to believe that the eavesdropped-on Netanyahu “liar” exchange between Sarkozy and Obama has caused many Americans, including many Jews, to wonder what the hell we’ve gotten into with the special relationship. But it has caused parochial Jews to freak out too. Here is such a person saying that Obama’s complaint about Netanyahu, “You’re fed up with him but I have to deal with him every day,” has caused Jews to worry about their safety in American society. Seems like quite a stretch, huh? But let Elaine Fogel, a marketing consultant and blogger, do the math in the Jewish News of Greater Phoenix. She describes the exchange as a defining moment:

For Democratic Jews, who have been supportive of the president and his agenda, this faux pas will certainly cause some to rethink their allegiances. [i.e., they’re going to become Republicans]

And, for independent Jewish voters, one can only guess, but for those with strong ties or commitment to Israel, the Obama gaffe may be a tipping point from which there is no return….

I expect to see this political blunder linger longer within our Jewish communities than other incidents. When the president speaks, even off the record, he speaks on behalf of all Americans. And that’s what will worry many American Jews.

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115 Responses

  1. Avi_G.
    November 19, 2011, 9:31 am

    This is pathetic, and it only proves that the American Jewish community has a long ways to go before it can play any fruitful role in the Israeli-Palestinian case.

    • MRW
      November 25, 2011, 2:59 pm

      I agree, Avi. It is also indicative of appalling stupidity, and the fact that most of these reactionaries are thinking with their amygdalas.

      I mean, c’mon, Phoenix?

      How f^^king stupid have Jews allowed themselves to be in this country? The ADL should widen its reach to include going after these rednecks who decimate the Jewish tradition.

      They need Mooser to fix ’em up.

      • Mooser
        November 25, 2011, 3:17 pm

        “How f^^king stupid have Jews allowed themselves to be in this country?”

        Hard to say, but does it really matter when the Rapture could occur “in the twinkling of an eye”? And when the country is on the verge of a Kenyan-Muslim-Communist take-over?

        Look, I can’t blame Jews for wanting desperately to assimilate, and be like their fellow-Americans.

  2. dumvitaestspesest
    November 19, 2011, 9:50 am

    Is she indirectly gluing an Anti-Semite label on Obama’s back ,or am I in a state of delusion??

    • pabelmont
      November 19, 2011, 1:45 pm

      No, she’s gluing a DEMENTIA label on the backs of a lot of USA Jews.

      The sad thing is that Sarkozy never SAID what the lies were; and Obama never said why he was so tired of the (well, stimulating?) daily/frequent conversation of Bibi.

      • jewishgoyim
        November 20, 2011, 8:24 am

        It’s true that we have a very small tidbit of conversation. Sarkozy saying “he’s a liar” is straightforward and leaves not a lot of room for interpretation. On the other hand, what Obama says is widely interpreted as negative for Netanyahu but it’s not that obvious to me.

        Sarkozy says “he’s a liar”. Let’s think about what Obama could have replied. I understand most ziocrazies would have liked him to leave the room and nuke France. But he has to not antagonize Sarkozy so that he can get him more easily to do what he wants. People forget the context of Obama being in the middle of scolding Sarkozy for the UNESCO vote and to prevent him from voting further for Palestine being recognized by other UN bodies. So he does not bother contradicting the very strong view coming from Sarkozy but instead tells him that “in any case, Netanyahu is an unescapable reality”. He may not be saying “I have to deal with this liar everyday”, he could be saying: “We have to deal with Netanyahu like it or not”.

        In face of Sarkozy’s hostility toward Netanyhu, Obama may just be trying to ask Sarkozy to toe the line without antagonizing him by directly contradicting his strong words. And maybe create the appearance of agreeing. The general context is an angry Sarkozy and Obama trying his utmost to be Israel’s lawyer. Empathy and understanding (fake or not) with the person you’re trying to convince is negotiation 101.

      • MRW
        November 25, 2011, 3:04 pm


        The real message was the UN Security Council. France joined Russia and China in a 3 to 5 vote against Israel.

  3. eljay
    November 19, 2011, 9:54 am

    >> When the president speaks, even off the record, he speaks on behalf of all Americans.

    Imagine that: He speaks for all Americans, not just American Jews.

    >> And that’s what will worry many American Jews.

    What worries American Jews? That the president doesn’t belong to them? That he dislikes a thug such as Bibi? That he’s tired of Israel’s sense of entitlement? That non-Jewish Americans may agree with him on this?

    • yourstruly
      November 19, 2011, 2:45 pm

      “He speaks for all Americans, not just American Jews” & That non-Jewish-Americans may agree with him on this?”

      (more accurately, that “he speaks for all Americans, not just israel-firster american jews and non-jews” & that non-israel-firster americans of whatever religious or political persuasion may agree with him on this”)

      as one of many anti-zionist/pro-palestinian jewish-americans, it’s disconcerting to find people in the justice for palestine movement claim or infer that all jews support israel. such generalizations do a disservice to us as individuals, as well as members of organizations such as jvp, jewish, young & proud, not in our name, to mention only a few. it’s bad enough having to respond to the israel-firster lie that jewish anti-zionists represent but a miniscule number of jews, but when our allies buttress such claims with careless remarks, it sure doesn’t help our efforts at educating the public that it’s not antisemitic to oppose the settler-entity/support justice for palestine. not only not antisemitic, it’s in the jewish tradition of always siding with the oppressed, never with the oppressor, even (better, especially) when the oppressor happens to be a co-religionist.

      • MRW
        November 25, 2011, 4:21 pm

        Good answer, yourstruly.

  4. Potsherd2
    November 19, 2011, 10:09 am

    So let her move to Israel and LIVE under Netanyahu if she wants to feel safer. And not vote in the US.

    • American
      November 19, 2011, 11:38 am

      US Jews who move to Israel still get to vote in US elections.
      There are agencies in Israel to get former US Jews ,now Israeli citizens, organized to vote in US elections.
      Which I am totally, totally, totally, really, really against.
      Because you know their vote IS totally based who is best for Israel, not for the US.
      AND they raise money for US politicians campaigns.
      So screwed up.

      • Potsherd2
        November 19, 2011, 2:19 pm

        But you can’t say they have dual loyalties, just dual voting privileges.

        If I’m correct, expat Israelis, even with no other citizenship, are not allowed to vote in Israeli elections.

      • American
        November 19, 2011, 3:06 pm

        Of course they don’t have dual loyalties if they become citizens of Israel.
        They have one loyalty–to Israel.
        So they shouldn’t have the right to vote in the US.
        They aren’t your typical US expats who live abroad some or all of the time without ever taking on another country’s citizenship and are still subject to US income tax.

      • CloakAndDagger
        November 19, 2011, 4:51 pm

        It used to be (still is?), that when someone immigrated to the US, you had to sign a piece of paper “renouncing allegiance to all other princes and potentates”. The US did not recognize dual citizenship. Then later, it became that if you were a US citizen by birth, you were allowed to also hold a Canadian as well as Israeli passport.

        I am curious as to how that came about.

        I can actually understand the Canadian one due to territorial proximity (although one should be able to make the same dispensation to Mexico), however, the one to Israel is rather blatant.

        The destruction of the US by a treasonous and venal congress, blackmailed and bribed by zio interest, must one day be punished. I hope I live long enough to see that day.

      • Bumblebye
        November 19, 2011, 5:24 pm

        Here you go
        It involves that little blue dot in the Eastern Med again.

      • CloakAndDagger
        November 19, 2011, 6:13 pm

        Thanks for the link, Bumblebye. Unfortunately, it raises more questions than answers and challenges my understanding of the issues even more:

        The Supreme Court’s ruling in Afroyim v. Rusk stated that no one who had acquired U.S. citizenship through birth or naturalization in the United States could lose that citizenship without his or her consent.

        What the above says to me is that ability to acquire dual citizenship is not limited to birthright Americans, but also to immigrants. Moreover, it is not limited to Canadian or Israeli citizenship, but to citizenship of any country in the world not requiring renouncing your US citizenship. i.e., if you do not voluntarily give up US citizenship, you can take up the citizenship of any country in the world that also recognizes dual citizenship.

        Am I reading this correctly?

      • Bumblebye
        November 19, 2011, 6:37 pm

        I can’t answer that, but a I bet one or more of Mondo’s legal wizards can! I do recall there was a time when kids with dual nationality had to chose which they’d keep as an adult. (That’s from a UK perspective; my sister’s kids are UK/US, and won’t have to chose.)

      • RoHa
        November 20, 2011, 12:57 am

        “Moreover, it is not limited to Canadian or Israeli citizenship, but to citizenship of any country in the world not requiring renouncing your US citizenship. i.e., if you do not voluntarily give up US citizenship, you can take up the citizenship of any country in the world that also recognizes dual citizenship.

        Am I reading this correctly?”

        As far as I can tell, you are. RoHa2 was born in the US, and currently has four citizenships. US, Australian, British, Japanese.
        When he is 20 he will have to either renounce his Japanese citizenship or the other three.

        But we have been told he can lose his US citizenship if he does something which can be interpreted as renouncing it. These may include entering the US on a non-US passport, joining the Royal Australian Air Force, or voting in an Australian election. This last is particularly awkward since voting is compulsory for Australian citizens.
        We have also been told that these activities need not affect his US citizenship if it is not clear that he performed them with the intent of renouncing the US citizenship. So there is room for a bit of fudging in there.

      • Chaos4700
        November 20, 2011, 3:30 am

        Wait a minute. Your son loses his citizenship if he serves a foreign military? So why didn’t Rahm Emmanuel lose his US citizenship when he volunteered with the IDF? What the hell.

      • RoHa
        November 20, 2011, 5:57 pm

        It’s the fudging. He “may” compromise his US citizenship if he swears to serve the Queen. It depends on whether the US authorities choose to see that as intent to renounce. So swearing to serve Israel will not compromise US citizenship because AIPAC makes sure the US authorities choose to see no intent to renounce.

      • lysias
        November 21, 2011, 3:23 pm

        The law against dual citizenship was struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court in Afroyim v. Rusk, 387 U.S. 253 (1967), which overruled the recent decision Perez v. Brownell, 356 U.S. 44 (1958).

        Beys Afroyim, born Ephraim Bernstein in Poland in 1893, immigrated to the U.S. in 1912 and became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1926. In 1950, Afroyim moved to Israel. He tried to renew his US passport in 1960, but the State Department refused on the grounds that he had lost his citizenship by voting in an Israeli election in 1951. Afroyim sued the State Department, and the Supreme Court ruled (5-4) that he was still a US citizen.

        Beys Afroyim was a painter. In 1945, he married his protégée, also a painter (and still living, although no longer in Israel, but in her native city of Vienna), the then 18-year-old Soshana Afroyim (née Susanne Schüller). In 1960, after the breakdown of the marriage, Beys Afroyim decided to return to the U.S. Hence the case.

  5. American
    November 19, 2011, 10:19 am

    Yea, that is pathetic and ridiculous.
    How does what Obama said about Yahoo have to do with Jews safety in the US?
    If I had to guess, this story plant is another scare tactic for ‘support Israel or perish’ or a ploy for a GOP vote.
    I mean what a dead giveaway…..Jews so stupid they think Israel is what is keeping them alive? Well maybe some are that dumb, but it’s hard for me to believe any one with a normal I.Q. believes Israel is some guarentee of US Jews survival …….in fact quite the opposite these days.

    But reminds me of a story I saw in the news yesterday:

    Israel to Boston: We want our citizens to return to their homeland
    Ads use emotion and guilt to lure those who’ve lingered in the diaspora to
    return to their Jewish roots

    By Alex Beam | Globe Columnist November 18, 2011

    That’s odd. You’re driving north on Fresh Pond Parkway, heading for the
    Concord Avenue rotary on your way to either the Fresh Pond Mall or the
    Alewife T station, and you see a huge billboard in Hebrew. I can’t be
    responsible for the Hebrew, but it’s a picture of a young father carrying
    his son on his shoulders, with one gigantic word spelled out in English:

    Israel’s Ministry of Immigrant Absorption placed the Cambridge billboard, as
    well as two others in New York, three in Los Angeles, one in Palo Alto,
    Calif., and two in Miami, as part of a new fillip in an ongoing campaign to
    lure Israelis back to Israel. The government has used many different
    incentives in its long-term program to reverse the “brain drain’’ of highly
    qualified citizens to Western Europe and the United States. This most recent
    campaign attempts to use a new tool: guilt.

    The message of the Cambridge billboard, which is reprised in several
    30-second TV ads you can see at the website, is that Israelis
    who linger too long in the diaspora risk losing their Jewish roots. In one
    of the ads, a family is Skyping their grandparents in Israel at Hanukkah,
    and the presumably assimilated daughter refers to the season as “Christmas.’’
    A look of pain shoots across her grandparents’ faces. The point of the
    “Daddy’’ ad is that real Israeli children call their fathers “Abba,’’ not

    Kelly Anne Smith, a spokeswoman for the Israeli Consulate, admits that the
    new campaign, which also ran for a while on an Israeli TV station available
    in the United States, “comes from an emotional standpoint. We don’t want to
    force people to go back to Israel, but it’s something we’d like them to
    explore. Life is pretty comfortable here, but parents need to ask themselves
    if this is where they want their children to grow up.’’

    It’s too early to judge the campaign’s effectiveness, she says.

    There are 10,000 Israeli citizens in the Boston area and perhaps a million
    in the United States. Israel offers generous incentives, including 10 years
    of tax relief from overseas income or investment, Hebrew lessons for
    children – even 200 free cellphone minutes – to returnees.

    It’s a tough sell, as former MIT economics professor and now governor of the
    Bank of Israel Stanley Fischer explained in an interview with Newsweek: “The
    conditions are enormously better in the United States. A graduating student
    in economics who gets his first job in the United States will earn three or
    four times what he earns in Israel. And the universities are better equipped
    and all that. It demands something of people to come back.’’

    Several friends of mine mentioned the billboard to me, and I asked what they
    thought about it. “I actually had tears in my eyes as I watched the videos,’’
    occupational therapist Nancy Mazonson wrote me in an e-mail. “Why was I, a
    non-Israeli, tearing up? Deep-seated, primal guilt. Because as an American
    born in the ’50s, I grew up being told that Israel is my homeland and that I
    must consider making Aliyah – moving to Israel. My freedom to be a Jew in
    America, I was taught, was and would always be dependent on the sacrifices
    of the Israelis to maintain that homeland.

    “Imagine, then, how powerful that message is when you guilt trip Israelis
    who have come to the States and, GOD FORBID, chosen to raise their children
    here while Skyping with Grandma back home on Hanukkah, telling her about
    Christmas. It’s the whole guilt package – done very well.

    “Israel is in a tough place. There is a brain drain. The best and the
    brightest can have the same opportunities there and here, but here there is
    more affluence to be had, and more importantly, less fear and worry about
    safety and security . . . not to mention no heartbreak thinking about that
    sweet blond curly haired kid who called his dad Abba having to one day be in
    the military.’’

    “A homeland is inevitably worried when its citizens voluntarily live outside
    its borders,’’ explains Jonathan Sarna, professor of American Jewish history
    at Brandeis. “When Israel was created, it was declared that Jews could only
    be safe inside that homeland. But America challenges that, offering a place
    where Jews can live in equality with other people and not suffer from

    “A few years ago, the Jewish Agency complained that Jews were ‘vanishing’ in
    America. The portrayal of America in Israel is of a place that is good for
    Jews but has a harmful impact on Judaism. In America, Israel is viewed as a
    dangerous place with terrorism all over.”

    It’s this kind of thinking I don’t get…..>“Why was I, a non-Israeli, tearing up? Deep-seated, primal guilt. Because as an American born in the ’50s, I grew up being told that Israel is my homeland and that I must consider making Aliyah – moving to Israel. My freedom to be a Jew in America, I was taught, was and would always be dependent on the sacrifices of the Israelis to maintain that homeland.”
    I mean, I get childhood brainwashing by parents but at some point when the adult mind develops reason and logic should kick in. The older generation of Jews who instilled this in their children have done them a great diservice….and if anything has made them unsafe it is the mentality…that no matter which country they actually live in, their real country is Israel.

    • annie
      November 19, 2011, 12:44 pm

      I get childhood brainwashing by parents but at some point when the adult mind develops reason and logic should kick in.

      reason and logic do kick in, but emotionally people are generally(or often if not generally) still impacted by childhood brainwashing. like she said “Deep-seated, primal guilt.” her logic and reason are functioning fine, you don’t see her packing her bags, but she’s still locked in emotionally. that’s the whole point of this kind of messaging, the reinforcement of this “homeland history”.

      one thing that bothers me is it is not confined to the jewish community. billboards message to everyone. it instills in other people that the real ‘home’ for american jews is in israel which is awful messaging. i’m so sick of this stuff. it reminds me of christian missionaries going into foreign lands and recruiting. i can understand why this is against the law in some places. i feel like saying “these are our citizens and you can’t have them”.

      • American
        November 19, 2011, 1:48 pm

        This is what blows my mind. The zionist and the gullible of the Jews make these ‘canards’ true. And that’s a fact and no point in denying it. Here we have in the US an organized group of zios all over our government whose sole goal is working for Israel. And for “emotional reasons” some Jews go along with this and think this is fine or “rationalize” that is it fine because the US and Israel ‘are one and the same’.
        And then say anyone who points out this indisputable fact is using old anti semitic canards? A 1000 people see John hammering a nail and John says ‘you’re all lying’ I’m not hammering a nail. It’s so bizarre I can’t describe it. I’ve never seen anything like it except in mental patients. It’s like I said before, the Jews need to get a grip on their emotions, nightmares, whatever, before the zionist sink them. They need to accept that their zios, their whole Israel thing is doing exactly what the old canards say about Jews. Look at what this survey says and then observe the attitudes of the wittys and eees and of course the very public zios always humping for Israel and the Jews……and it’s no wonder people have this impression. Hammering that nail in full view of the whole world and denying you are hammering that nail and calling the world liars…..just freaking unbelievable. I will never understand it. It needs some psychologist to give this kind of mental aberration a special name.

        ADL Survey of Five European Countries Finds One in Five Hold Strong Anti-Semitic Sentiments; Majority Believes Canard of Jewish Disloyalty

        New York, NY, October 31, 2002… An opinion survey of adults in five European countries found that 21% harbor strong anti-Semitic views, and 56% believe that Jews are more loyal to Israel than their own country, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) reported today. European Attitudes Toward Jews: A Five Country Survey of 2,500 — 500 each in Austria, Italy, The Netherlands, Spain and Switzerland — was conducted by telephone in the native language of each of the countries September 9-29, 2002 by First International Resources for ADL. Spain, with 12,000 Jews out of a population of 39.6 million, had the highest percentage of anti-Semitic views of the countries polled. The survey was released in conjunction with ADL’s Conference on Global Anti-Semitism, a gathering of world Jewish leaders, government officials and experts.

        “These findings are especially disturbing because they show that the old, classical form of anti-Semitism, which we had hoped was long gone in Europe, continues to be resilient,” said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. “It is alarming in this post-Holocaust, post-September 11, world to find that one in five believe the age-old canards about Jews.”

        The Findings: Anti-Semitism

        Of those surveyed:

        21% harbor strong anti-Semitic views. 34% in Spain, 23% in Italy, 22% in Switzerland, 19% in Austria, 7% in the Netherlands
        56% believe Jews are more loyal to Israel than their own country. 72% in Spain, 58% in Italy, 54% in Austria, 49% in Switzerland, 48%, The Netherlands
        40% believe that Jews have too much power in international financial markets. 71% in Spain
        29% say Jews don’t care about anyone but their own kind. Spain and Switzerland 34%
        25% say Jews are more willing than others to use shady practices to get what they want. Spain 33%, Austria 28%, Italy and Switzerland 27%
        49% believe Jews still talk too much about the Holocaust. Spain 57%, Austria 56%, Switzerland 52%, Italy 43%, The Netherlands 35%

        “Large numbers of Europeans accept a wide range of traditional anti-Semitic stereotypes about Jews,” Mr. Foxman said. “These beliefs, such as the charge that Jews are more loyal to Israel than to their home country, help to fuel and legitimize anti-Semitic violence. European leaders need to accept and act on the fact that they have a serious problem at home.”

        “”These beliefs, such as the charge that Jews are more loyal to Israel “…..
        yea, while umpteen hundred Jewish orgs tell them every day their real home and loyalty is in Israel! LOL
        Beam me up Scotty…..

      • Sand
        November 19, 2011, 2:23 pm

        The ADL — well! But look at the OSCE — arghh!

        JTA: Report: Hate crimes data in Europe inadequate
        November 18, 2011

        WASHINGTON (JTA) — “The European body monitoring hate crimes said that governments fail to provide adequate data.

        A report on hate crimes in 2010 released this month by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe found that some states do not collect any data all on such crimes, a finding that was backed by the Anti-Defamation League and Human Rights First…”

        This pathological need or obsession to find out what people think of them — to the point of taking over NGO’s as well as government entities to drive their obsessive agenda is just plain bizarre.

        I just hope they stay out of NATO!!!

    • Watcher465
      November 20, 2011, 12:40 am

      “Brain drain”? You mean like Gene Simmons? Well thank God the thug settlers aren’t going anywhere.

      • Theo
        November 20, 2011, 8:14 am

        Just wait until the push turns into a shove or worse in Israel, suddenly you will see them in your town looking for a place to claim of their own.
        I hope your town has money to pay them for doing nothing.

  6. Dan Crowther
    November 19, 2011, 10:48 am

    Once again, this “all Jews are de facto Israeli’s” is what should be really “scary” to american jews.

    I mean, what is there to worry about? It’s not like the president can just “round up” and kill american citizens with no charges or due process….oh, wait.

    • Chaos4700
      November 19, 2011, 11:15 am

      It should be scary, and it’s worrisome to me that it doesn’t seem to be, for the most part.

  7. Walid
    November 19, 2011, 11:19 am

    “Life is pretty comfortable here, but parents need to ask themselves
    if this is where they want their children to grow up.’’

    What am I missing here? What would these good Jewish children be missing by growing up in America apart from losing the chance of beating up on helpless Palestinians or becoming water and land thieves like the rest of Israelis?

    • Potsherd2
      November 19, 2011, 2:24 pm

      Missing the chance to serve as cannon fodder in the IDF. That’s what it’s about. As Israel falls under the control of haredim, they’ll need more and more to find conscripts who will follow the orders of their officers, not their rabbis.

    • Taxi
      November 19, 2011, 2:26 pm

      Uncle Israel Wants Your Kids.

  8. Cliff
    November 19, 2011, 11:26 am

    So American Jews vote for Israel. AMERICAN Jews.

    What is American about supporting Israel? Why do we need to cater to people who cater to another country?

  9. Donald
    November 19, 2011, 12:01 pm

    I’d want to see polling data before caring too much about Fogel’s analysis, but assuming it’s true, any liberal who would vote for a Republican because of Obama’s remark wasn’t much of a liberal to begin with–their thinking is so deluded their liberalism is of little consequence. (Of course whether a liberal should vote for Obama himself is a separate question.)

    • Sand
      November 19, 2011, 12:16 pm

      All I can say is I’ve met them — they first come across as humane and caring describing themselves as liberal and progressive Democrats — caring about the social issues of the day — BUT they certainly don’t come across that way when you start talking negatively about Israel — and definitely not when you talk about negotiating with IRAN. Some of them would send American kids to war for Israel in a heart beat. The transformation is stunning!

      Polls are one thing, I agree — but when you meet them face to face — boy oh [email protected]! There’s no give — they demand you be a Democrat faithful to Israel. I can’t do that. In my mind the Democratic party is dead — it’s the Likud party now.

      Thanks Saban for your AIPAC Intern program – NOT.

      • Mooser
        November 25, 2011, 3:48 pm

        “All I can say is I’ve met them — they first come across as humane and caring describing themselves as liberal and progressive Democrats — caring about the social issues of the day — BUT they certainly don’t come across that way when you start talking negatively about Israel”

        And now for a live demonstration….

  10. annie
    November 19, 2011, 12:48 pm

    For Democratic Jews, who have been supportive of the president and his agenda, this faux pas will certainly cause some to rethink their allegiances.

    allegiances to whom? the democratic party or the country? netanyahu is a foreign right wing leader. he’s the likud. if these people share allegiances with him that’s their problem.

  11. Taxi
    November 19, 2011, 2:09 pm

    I sense a giant tribal collective mind pulsating in fear.

    This fear, it’s all about the chaotic powers of subconscious guilt. The darker the fear, the deeper the guilt.

    There is not a trick nor bribe or potion under the sun that can fizzle-out the frantic reflexes of a subconscious guilt. Just ask Edgar Alan Poe. And when the subconscious guilt is denied reconciliation with it’s offenses, it will cause great irrationality and exaggerations in the sufferer.

    I’m sorry there’s no pill to take for this hazardous condition. Except perhaps in paying reparations and earnestly asking the victims for forgiveness.

  12. MarkF
    November 19, 2011, 4:08 pm

    If I, a Jew, call Bibi is a liar, I will get a chuckle and an approving nod.

    If our President says he’s a liar, we’re to circle the wagons for Bibi even if we agree with our President. Unbelievable. But I guess I’m in, well, not such good company. Our congress loves Bibi more than our President. I can only imagine what would have happened to Joe Wilson if he shouted “liar!” when Bibi addressed congress.

    So much for rallyin’ round the family, especially when they speak the truth.

    • Charon
      November 19, 2011, 5:01 pm

      MarkF, I’m starting to wonder about all these interest groups which claim to represent Jewish Americans. It’s no secret that the coveted ‘Jewish Vote’ has nothing to do with actual voters and everything to do with Zionist political donations. The lobby operates under the guise of being Jewish yet is supported and run primarily by non-Jews, mainly of the fundamentalist Christian variety. It has been this way since the early 20th century too, and if it wasn’t for rapturous fundies pressuring Truman (a Zionist Chritian himself) against the advice of his own administration, there may not even be an Israel today.

      Some Jewish Americans may be Zionist and/or partial to Israel, but the majority (70%) vote Democratically in every election. I can see them getting mad at Obama if he were to call Bibi a liar even though they would agree among other Jews, but I don’t see them changing their traditional voting habits.

      Now in the case of the non-Jewish Israel firsters, they would never call Bibi a liar amongst themselves. They take the Congressional standing ovation route. Bibi is their president. Even though in Israel he gets criticized in public and in the Knesset by Israelis. Jewish Neoconservative/Zionist politicians, journalists, and elites are leading these attitudes, yet we’re talking about not much more than a handful of people. Those blindingly following them are predominantly not Jewish. Darby and Scofield did a heck of a lot of damage, no doubt with a Zionist helping-hand. Since success was not guaranteed, makes me wonder who many other dispensationalist attempts at vandalizing the Bible were out there

  13. dumvitaestspesest
    November 19, 2011, 4:41 pm

    Maybe this lady, insultant ,will wonder for a while on how many public, intentional comments ,done by Israeli leaders, ( including Netanyahu), made Palestinians feel unsafe.??
    Especially that they know that their comments are usually followed by actions.

  14. DICKERSON3870
    November 19, 2011, 5:53 pm

    RE: “Phoenix Jewish columnist says Obama’s complaint about Netanyahu made American Jews feel unsafe” ~ Weiss

    MY COMMENT: Why does Obama’s complaint about Netanyahu make American Jews feel unsafe when Clinton’s complaints about Netanyahu apparently do not? Might the explanation be racism?

    SEE: Bill Clinton’s Blistering Attack on Netanyahu, By Jeffrey Goldberg, 11/23/11
    LINK –
    ALSO: Bill Clinton On Netanyahu…, By MJ Rosenberg, 11/18/09
    LINK –

    • DICKERSON3870
      November 19, 2011, 6:05 pm

      P.S. ALSO SEE: If Netanyahu Lies, Why Do We Keep Listening?, Sharmine Narwani (Senior Associate, St. Antony’s College, Oxford University), Huffington Post, 11/10/11

      (excerpt)…But Obama isn’t the only US president to bemoan the constant need to coddle both Israel and its irritating prime minister, in particular. Scroll back to Bill Clinton’s presidency, which coincided with Netanyahu’s first gig as head of state…
      According to ex-special envoy to the Middle East Aaron David Miller, [President Bill] Clinton was so agitated by Netanyahu during their first meeting in 1996, he exploded: “Who the fuck does he think he is? Who’s the fucking superpower here?”
      Barely a year later, Clinton had to personally wrest from Netanyahu an antidote for the toxin used by Israeli agents in their assassination attempt on Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal. “I cannot deal with this man [Netanyahu]. He is impossible,” [President] Clinton allegedly said in reference to Netanyahu, who initially lied about his involvement in the murder plot.
      But these cannot possibly compare to Netanyahu’s big “gotcha” moment where he is caught on camera telling a settler family that he deliberately deceived his partners in peace over the Oslo Accords…


  15. Bill in Maryland
    November 19, 2011, 6:09 pm

    Hey, Ms. Fogel- are you saying you would like to bring the Special Relationship out into the public political arena? Ron Paul, and soon I hope OWS, as well as Bill Kristol, Charles Krauthammer et al are ready to talk about it. I say, bring it on and it’s about time!

  16. dumvitaestspesest
    November 19, 2011, 6:41 pm

    Who, and what is really unsafe??
    here , what is REALLY unsafe.

    “Israeli paper Israel-Ayom reports today about a new ‘Congressional bill’ that would REQUIRE the “American administration to SUPPORT Israel in a move DEEMED necessary to defend itself against the Iranian nuclear threat.”

    Five Republican congressmen who visited Israel last week disclosed the bill.

    The bill states an “expression of SUPPORT FOR Israel’s right to defend its sovereignty and to protect the lives and safety of its citizens and use ALL necessary means to confront and eliminate the nuclear threat that emerges from the Islamic Republic of Iran, including use military force in the absence of other diplomatic means available in the near future. ”

    The initiator of the bill is Rep. Doug Lamborn (Colorado).

    If you doubted the colossal danger imposed by the the ‘lobby’ you better wake up NOW!!!”

    The 5th collumn in the US Congress becomes more visible, loud and demending.
    No need to hide anymore??

    • dumvitaestspesest
      November 19, 2011, 8:12 pm

      “Require the American Administration to support Israel” in their obsessive-compulsive need to start the war with Iran ??.
      This is more than pathetic. This is a very dangerous, treacherous move.
      Kind of Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement.

      “The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, named after the Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov and the German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, was an agreement officially titled the Treaty of Non-Aggression BETWEEN Germany and the Soviet Union made on 23 August 1939.
      In addition to stipulations of non-aggression, the treaty included a SECRET PROTOCOL DIVIDING Northern and Eastern Europe into German and Soviet spheres of influence, anticipating potential “territorial and political rearrangements” of these countries.
      Thereafter, Germany and the Soviet Union invaded, on September 1 and 17 1939 respectively, their respective sides of Poland, dividing the country BETWEEN them. Part of eastern Finland was annexed by the Soviet Union after the Winter War.
      This was followed by Soviet annexations of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and the Hertza region…”

    • piotr
      November 20, 2011, 11:09 pm

      “loud and demending.”

      I am not a good speller myself, but some clarification is needed: demanding, demented, or both?

      • Mooser
        November 25, 2011, 3:26 pm


        I big department, Mr. Pockheel? Seems perfectly clear to me, means demented demands, or demanding.

  17. Patrick
    November 20, 2011, 12:13 am

    I realize this is somewhat off topic, but in case it’s not been cited already, here is passage of interest from a recent speech by Chas Freeman:

    “The bankruptcy of American policy on the Israel-Palestine question has led to an effective U.S. decision that it is more important to frustrate Palestinian self-determination than to continue to pay for and participate in many aspects of global governance. This decision reflects the passionate attachment of the U.S. Congress to Israel, which is currently under exceptionally short-sighted, self-destructive, and repellent management. The United States is at odds with almost all of the international community, where the Palestinian cause enjoys overwhelming sympathy and support. If the Palestinians continue to press their case internationally, as most expect them to do, the American exodus from UNESCO promises to be merely the first of many such U.S. withdrawals from United Nations organizations. In some cases, other countries will seek to increase their influence by making up the resulting funding shortfalls; in some they won’t. Without at all intending to do so, the United States is forcing the international community to re-engineer global institutions to function without it or its money and without reference to American views or interests. The failure of U.S. diplomacy in Palestine thus risks translation into a definitive American retreat from global political participation and relevance.”

  18. mmayer
    November 20, 2011, 12:41 am

    More perpetual victim. How in the world does American Jews feel unsafe because Obama (and France to boot) are fed up with Bibi’s shenanigans? Maybe American Jews should rethink making aliyah. It seems the recent slate of discriminatory legislation no longer just targets Palestinians.

  19. Sin Nombre
    November 20, 2011, 1:48 am

    AMERICAN wrote:

    “This is what blows my mind. The zionist and the gullible of the Jews make these ‘canards’ true… A 1000 people see John hammering a nail and John says ‘you’re all lying’ I’m not hammering a nail. It’s so bizarre I can’t describe it.”

    Just the most precise description of the thing imaginable.

    I think lots of the cause of this was the Holocaust, or more precisely what the Holocaust has come to be presented as and thus “meaning.” I forget who it was (and indeed I think it was some jewish writer) but in some piece looking at the historiography of the Holocaust—or at least its popular understanding in the U.S.—in the immediate aftermath of it and up to and into the Sixties everyone including the jewish community seems to have viewed it as a universal crime of sorts. That … it could have happened to anyone, and indeed could have been perpetrated by anyone too. (Esp. given that the Germans were the most educated, “civilized” and etc. people on earth at the time.)

    But then, God knows why but perhaps as a conscious thing used by Israelis to justify esp. their ’67 war, the change started, and the Holocaust became sort of “owned” by the jews. Essentially that … it could only have happened to them, no-one else ever suffered as much, and of course that they could never be involved in anything like same. (And here the passage of time helped in forgetting the simply enormous jewish involvement in the flamboyant atrocities of the Bolsheviks.)

    At any rate as AMERICAN suggests it’s almost become like some sort of psychosis; just utterly (and ever-more) divorced from reality. And yet “innocent” (mostly): Unconscious. Statements will be made by this or that jewish figure saying “X,” followed by the wide and most thundering (but genuinely felt) accusations of anti-semitism when anyone else observes “X” no differently.

    Reminds me of an exchange I just had with “eee” here on another thread. Kissinger says jews were acting enormously self-interested when it came to extracting other jews from the Sov. Union. So “eee” says this made him proud to be a jew … followed by another post from him or her just minutes later responding to another argument saying that what Kissinger said was “stupid.” Impossible to have both ways of course: If it makes you proud of course you’re accepting its accuracy, and yet in the next breath not even realizing the contradiction you’re saying it was a “stupid” perception.

    Yet another kind of circle involved in all this that’s just impossible to square.

    Devastating consequence given this kind of thing seems to have esp. afflicted the American jewish community, without whose support Israel would never have been able to get itself into its present situation. (And us with it.)

    Plus you gotta blame the media: The rise of political correctness concerning ethnic matters has effectively imposed blindness on it as regards some things, and then you have that treatment of the Holocaust too making any commentary on jewish matters in particular so sensitive that I suspect many feel that the only people who can even comment on such matters must be jewish. (Or at least that any such commentary must of necessity be laudable in the extreme.)

    AMERICAN has just simply put his finger precisely on what is THE enabling factor allowing the present situation to develop.

    Makes you shiver a bit as to where it will all end up: Of course at some point reality will always intrude and make itself felt, and thus the question is just how long can this monumental self-delusion in the American jewish community last, and how bad will it get before that self-delusion comes crashing down?

    The underground rumblings that you can pick up here and there … the ever-nastier critical comments made in response to the constant run-of-the-mill politically correct articles in the MSM, some of which even talk in terms of “you just wait…”

    Makes you want to just crawl in a hole to get away from it all. You want to say your piece to try to keep the conversation within the realm of moderation and sanity, and that just seems hopeless, just leaving you with the logic of sensing some impending immoderate and likely ugly idiocy inevitably coming that you don’t want to be on either side of.

  20. Watcher465
    November 20, 2011, 2:00 am

    Yes Ms Fogel and Phoenix Jews are also very worried about those sneaky pesky Mexicans crossing the border into Arizona and just ruining everything. But if all these worried Jews become Republicans just what will change exactly. The monied Jews have always played both sides of politics. It’s not like they take any risks. See which way the wind is blowing and that’s who gets the support this election. Israel’s interests will never be inconvenienced by something as trite as two party politics. Lying Lieberman changed his allegiance in a heartbeat. Get the picture?

  21. hophmi
    November 20, 2011, 10:15 am

    LOL. I’m glad to see someone is reading the Phoenix Jewish news. I think you may be the only one, Phil.

    It’s the opinion of a single person, nothing more. Get over it.

    • Cliff
      November 20, 2011, 10:40 am

      It’s not the opinion of a single person. We’ve seen this view stated by Zionist intellectuals several times.

      Stop trying to downplay, whitewash and emotionally blackmail.

      Get over yourself.

    • Chaos4700
      November 20, 2011, 11:06 am

      What’s your opinion, hophmi? Go ahead, tell us.

  22. ElaineFogel
    November 20, 2011, 6:37 pm

    As I have now been approved to post comments, I’d like to weigh in, if I may. I am the “Phoenix Jewish columnist,” and as such, would like to respond to some of your comments.

    1. hophmi is correct. My column represents my personal opinion. I would never profess to represent any Jewish American community or even part of one. For one thing, I am a U.S. resident and not a citizen, so I cannot vote until I apply for citizenship – which I plan to do.

    2. I have seen a shift to the right, not only in the U.S. Jewish community, but in Canada, too. With such a close proximity to the U.S., Canadians have a vested interest in the outcomes of U.S. elections and overall policies. As a result, many acquaintances and family members in my country of origin are disillusioned with Obama and do not support his re-election. And why? Because they believe that he is not a friend of Israel.

    3. I never said anything about feeling “unsafe” in America. Those are Mr. Weiss’ words. The truth is that I feel safer here as a Jew than I did in Canada.

    There were far more incidents of antisemitism in Canada than I ever saw or read about here. My Canadian alma mater is rife with anti-Israel demonstrations by pro-Palestinian students. When I lived there, there were incidents of anti-Semitic graffiti and overturned Jewish gravestones. A Jewish day school library in Montreal was firebombed, and my husband’s alma mater is where demonstrations and violence took place when Netanhayu tried to speak on campus several years ago. Both universities are still hotbeds for demonstrations and activities that pit pro-Palestinian and Jewish students against each other.

    4. I am, and have been, a staunch supporter of President Obama. I chose not to include that in my editorial as it was irrelevant to my point. Regardless, I was disappointed in Obama’s remark to Sarkozy, and not so much because of its content.

    I am not naive enough to believe that world leaders don’t share private comments about each other. What disturbed me is twofold – Obama was overheard complaining about another country’s leader (Netanyahu), and as the U.S. president, and “official” representative of Americans, this was a political faux pas that shed a bad light on him.

    I was also concerned that his comment might be a tipping point for those North American Jews who were already doubting his commitment to Israel. With all the insane rhetoric flying around about Obama being a Muslim and questioning the validity of his citizenship, there were plenty of Jews expressing concern and distrust.

    The remark to Sarkozy may have been enough to cause this group to change political camps. And, it has nothing to do with Netanyahu and whether people believe he is a liar or not. I believe that it has more to do with the uncertainty of America’s allegiances to the State of Israel under the current administration.

    5. In response to Watcher465, the illegal immigration issue in Arizona is a cause for concern on both sides of the political aisle. What I don’t like is the outright racism I see in my state by some who are intolerant and outspoken about it. They do not speak for all of us. But, they are the ones who unfortunately get more press coverage.

    As a legal immigrant who followed the rules and became a U.S. resident, I have total empathy for the Mexicans who came to this country illegally to make a better life. I came with the privilege of a university education, a native English language, professional skills and experience, and resources. Many Mexicans who have crossed the border illegally came from severe poverty and desperation. The legal route was unattainable for them. What would any of us do if we could not get a job or feed our children?

    In conclusion:
    There often appears to be a love-dislike relationship between Israelis and Diaspora Jews, especially with (North) American Jews. I have never lived in Israel. I have never experienced what you do on a daily basis. I could never even begin to understand what your lives are like. But, I do know that no matter what – whichever way the political winds blow – I will continue to support Israel.

    Based on some of the mean-spirited comments here, I will ask you to try to have a little more tolerance for those of us living in America. As North American Jews, we must balance our domestic interests with our Jewish/Israeli allegiances. That’s not always easy. In fact, many American Jews have cared so much about Israel that their votes are based more on the U.S. relationship with Israel than on domestic issues. Their intentions are good. Please keep that in mind, even if you don’t agree with them. I know that I am trying to do that, too.

    • Cliff
      November 20, 2011, 7:18 pm

      Thank you for explaining your article more clearly, Ms. Fogel.

      I disagree with your politics (obviously) and your characterization of the conflict on Canadian campuses as one between pro-Palestinian students and simply ‘Jewish students’.

      I also can’t understand how you expect non-Zionists and anti-Zionists (and perhaps even post-Zionists) to see your intentions (and that of other Israel-first-American-Jews) as ‘good’.

      We aren’t disagreeing on who has a better passing game or jumpshot. We’re talking about life and death. Morals, ethics, etc.

      So I don’t see anything remotely good in supporting Israel, let alone supporting Israel regardless of “whichever way the political winds blow.”

      It’s impossible to have any kind of discussion with people who believe a Jewish State has a unique right to exist in spite of it’s effect on the non-Jews in the region and specifically the Palestinian people.

      Israel has not declared it’s definitive borders and is still ethnically cleansing the Palestinians and colonizing their land. The Zionist project is immoral and is apparently not going to be finished until the Palestinians are finished.

      Whatever ‘good’ you are doing, Ms. Fogel, is clearly for your tribe only. It has nothing ever to do with any principles that non-Jews can respect (unless of course they support that same kind of tribalism and immorality).

      • ElaineFogel
        November 20, 2011, 10:22 pm

        Cliff, I don’t expect non-Jews to understand Diaspora Jewish devotion to the State of Israel. Some will and some won’t.

        Jews have carried the weight of persecution for centuries. Non-Jews can tell us to “get over it” or that it is part of history and the risk is no longer apparent. But that is untrue.

        Most non-Jews are unaware of the continuing anti-Semitism that Jews face in the Diaspora. Frightening incidents occur regularly in South America, Europe, North America, and elsewhere. These are factual cases that do not always make the evening news, but they happen regardless. Read the latest reports from the World Jewish Congress.

        It is absolutely necessary for the State of Israel to exist. I won’t go into all the reasons here, but suffice it to say that the majority of Diaspora Jews believe this vehemently. It is our safe place, our refuge, and our homeland should anything happen to our communities or us. There are absolutely no guarantees that we will remain protected in our nations. We hope and pray that we will, but based on our history, we can never take that risk.

        Does that mean that we approve of everything the Israeli Knesset does? No. Does that mean that we support all IDF actions? No. But, I strongly believe that you are wrong about the “Zionist project… not going to be finished until the Palestinians are finished.”

        As the late prime minister of Israel, Golda Meir once said, “We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon – no alternative.”

      • Sand
        November 20, 2011, 11:02 pm

        Elaine: “…Cliff, I don’t expect non-Jews to understand Diaspora Jewish devotion to the State of Israel. Some will and some won’t…”

        Don’t worry Elaine, I understand it’s because you’re ‘special’ isn’t it. Scary place that anti-semitic Diaspora world you live in. But I bet it’s good to know you can always bunker down in Israel if needs be — a happy place where you don’t need to trust anyone else except your fellow Jews (as well as knowing the US taxpayers will pay for the privilege). I know, you just need a few more years to expunge those “anti-semite” crayon drawing Palestinian kids from the place, and all will be well.

        Unbelievable Elaine!

      • RoHa
        November 20, 2011, 11:09 pm

        “It is absolutely necessary for the State of Israel to exist. I won’t go into all the reasons here, but suffice it to say that the majority of Diaspora Jews believe this vehemently. It is our safe place, our refuge, and our homeland should anything happen to our communities or us. There are absolutely no guarantees that we will remain protected in our nations. We hope and pray that we will, but based on our history, we can never take that risk.”

        And since Jews are so much more important than other people, the possible future suffering of Jews vastly outweighs the real suffering that the creation of Israel has caused and is causing now, right?

      • Taxi
        November 21, 2011, 12:18 am

        Elaine Fogel,

        Like most zionist jews, YOUR NAME AIN’T MIDDLE EASTERN! Like most euro israelis, you have no rights to a single inch of Arab land.

        The blood of innocent native Palestinians continues to spill because of racist people like you!

        That you come here and oh so politely expound on your support for the Apartheid ethnic-cleansing state of israel is disgusting and immoral.

        And your efforts are already failing anyhow – you can support Apartheid israel all you like – it ain’t gonna last – not because it’s ‘jewish’ but because it’s a foreign entity that murdered and swindled it’s way into the middle east.

        Apartheid israel is a violent colonialist project that will be ended “whichever way the political winds blow”, my dear.

        And STOP hiding your racism behind soft words and polite justifications. Even that hideous ex-idf mondo blogger eee is more honest than you.

        Admit to the war-crimes of the Nakba, pay reparations, and perhaps, only then perhaps you can convince the world that you are a good person supporting a good cause: a practitioner of judaism and not Apartheid.


        In other words, you ain’t gonna be safe so long as you support racist jewish COLONIALISM, AND SO LONG AS PALESTINIANS FEEL UNSAFE!

        THE NAKBA IS AS IMPORTANT AS THE HOLOCAUST. Start your education by acknowledging THAT! You obviously do not understand the meaning of ‘never again’!

        Shame on you! Shame on you! Shame on you and your manipulations!

      • annie
        November 21, 2011, 12:37 am

        i’m glad you commented elaine . i have a question for you wrt obama. what if what he said was true? what if everyday he had to deal with netanyahu, either directly or thru the diplomats or lobbiests?

        how much of the presidents time should be devoted to dealing with pressure to bomb iran and stuff like that? and we(the US) have supported israel like crazy, and it is never enough. obama has exerted a lot of political capital supporting israel and what does he have to show for it? when our vp visits israel and they announce the same day they are building more settlements, isn’t that a slap in the face to our president?

        i think it is a fair question to ask what israel does for us. when obama made a speech saying virtually the very same thing as all the past presidents, affirming our commitment to 2 states based on 67 borders everyone went crazy. why? there was nothing radical about that. it seems to me we’ve done a lot for israel.

        As North American Jews, we must balance our domestic interests with our Jewish/Israeli allegiances. That’s not always easy. In fact, many American Jews have cared so much about Israel that their votes are based more on the U.S. relationship with Israel than on domestic issues.

        are you aware that your last sentence there, if you say that about american jews it is tantamount to accusing someone of dual loyalty which is considered anti semitic? it is a very weird concept for me to think that this country could get stuck with a fanatical christian fundie zionist president because american jews do not like a president that has given that country virtually everything they have ask for during his term. including loosing face in front of the whole world by vetoing a resolution at the UN about settlements that was exactly in line with his own policy, which happens to be the official policy of the US.

        how do you like the way israel has expanded over the decades with an american foreign policy that can’t say no to israel?

        There were far more incidents of antisemitism in Canada than I ever saw or read about here. My Canadian alma mater is rife with anti-Israel demonstrations by pro-Palestinian students.

        i am sorry you’ve experience anti semitism in canada. however, protesting against occupation and apartheid, in and of itself by any rational argument, is not racist or anti semitic ( although they could be).

        thanks again for commenting.

      • American
        November 21, 2011, 12:54 am

        Elaine, I was going to ask you a lot of questions but decided I could do it with one.

        This is it:

        What are Jews/ zionist willing to do to end anti semitism?

        Will Israel give back the illegally taken Palestine land and cease their greed?
        Will zionist Jews quit living as the carnads say as “a nation within nation” manipulating the governments and people of what you call their host nations for strictly the benefit of the Jews?
        Will Jews acknowledge and take responsibility for they own actions where warrented?

        I have a magic wand, I can end what you call anti semitism, except for the miniscule fringes, forever. Jews will never be unjustly persecuted, discriminated against again, just tell me what what you’re willing to do for that.

        Or don’t you want it to end? If it means being no more or no less, but just the same as any other people?

      • annie
        November 21, 2011, 12:59 am

        another thing re Jews have cared so much about Israel that their votes are based more on the U.S. relationship with Israel

        the percentage of jews in the US is such a tiny amount, frankly..their collective vote means diddly squat. it’s the power of the purse they have filling the coffers of campaigns. we know that. how do you think that makes us feel? that our politicians have to pay more attention to a very minor percentage of a minor percentage of one minority. not good. and the rest of us, the american with no country in reserve in case this one doesn’t work out? they don’t have back up plans just like most americans don’t have second homes. we just feel lucky to have the one roof over our heads. so while you have a country of origin, canada, that you (for some odd reason) might not consider your homeland and are thinking applying for citizenship here, a place you also won’t consider your homeland..pardon me if i don’t fully appreciate the challenges of balancing your allegiences. it just so turns out your back up plan (the one you don’t want to move to now or yet or maybe ever) people there are living in refugee camps who can’t even be citizens or vote for the military rule that governs their occupation. and you to have 3 countries and the one you call your the ‘extra’.

        and just in case you have not noticed , gays don’t have a back up ‘gay’ county. african americans either (maybe because they consider this their homeland, shocking) and many other have experience prejudice. we just don’t have our own word for it. it’s just called racism for the rest of us. whereas you have your own, and its prioritized. why do you think that is? should palestinians have their own special word? victims of zionist aparthied, what should we call them? the word anti semite is already taken even tho most of you are not semites. i don’t want american jews to consider any other place their homeland. they are just as american as me. will you be? or will your vote be for israel?

      • eee
        November 21, 2011, 1:07 am


        There you go whining again about the influence of Jews in the US even though they are such a small group. What is the problem to raise more money than Jewish donors? You are 50 times as many! Instead of complaining do the work like the Jews do. It is just ridiculous that you blame your own ineptitude on the Jews who are able to do what you can’t.

      • CloakAndDagger
        November 21, 2011, 1:08 am

        Annie, Elaine’s post riled me on so many levels. I was part way through writing a lengthy response, when I saw your post had covered most of what I was going to write.

        Your query of “how does that make us feel when…” succinctly sums it up for me. Is anti-semitism the human response to a feeling of resentment when a small group within a larger group is unfairly privileged, not temporarily to correct some undeserved wrong, but perpetually?

      • tree
        November 21, 2011, 1:13 am

        It is absolutely necessary for the State of Israel to exist. I won’t go into all the reasons here, but suffice it to say that the majority of Diaspora Jews believe this vehemently. It is our safe place, our refuge, and our homeland should anything happen to our communities or us. There are absolutely no guarantees that we will remain protected in our nations. We hope and pray that we will, but based on our history, we can never take that risk.

        And here is more of the irrational thinking. First off, my sister lives in Israel. She is more unsafe, as a Jew, there than she is here or in Canada, or in most other places. So Israel is not your “safe place” except in your dreams and desires. Second, as you seem to be “worried” about Obama’s “allegiance” to Israel over the smallest of things, its clear that you believe that Israel is only your “safe place” if the US continues to give undying, near obsequious, support to everything it does. The problem with that kind of belief is that it is contradictory. If the US ever becomes so anti-semitic that you would feel unsafe here, something I truly doubt would ever happen, then naturally the US support for Israel will cease to be, and instead become antagonism. Israel is a tiny nation that has continually antagonized all its neighbors. It can not survive without a super power to protect it, and certainly not with a super power that is antagonistic to it. If that day comes to pass that you so dread, Israel will be the LEAST SAFE place for you.

        And yet you are willing to see Palestinians suffer real pain and deprivation in order to keep your impossible dream alive. This is why you are not getting any sympathy here for your “fear”. You exhibit no sympathy for those who are clearly suffering in the here and now, and have been for decades, but expect sympathy for your amorphous fear of possible future suffering.

        And Golda Meir perfectly embodies a certain bounded rigid Jewish thinking on this. Of course there is an alternative. Israel could treat everyone as equals before the law, regardless of ethnic or religious background. What a concept, eh? Why could Golda not imagine that? Why can’t you?

      • annie
        November 21, 2011, 1:17 am

        and one more thing, i do not have a problem w/’jews’. i live out here in the bay area and all the jews i come in contact with are wonderful. i would protect them as i would any palestinian in harms way or any other person who was victimized. not only do i not witness any discrimination against them, they don’t tell me they are discriminated against. here’s what i have a problem with..ISRAEL and RACISM. and that is not anti semitic. why are you supporting an apartheid state? does your loyalty to your tribe superceed your loyalty to morals and the human race?

        i little tip for you, we are not your problem and we are not israels problem. fanatical radical religious nationalistic zionism will take down both of our countries (your homeland and mine) at the pace israel is expanding. and don’t worry about warning people obama should be nicer to israel because he will go down not only because of warnings like yours. he will go down because the left isn’t really interested in a president who bends over for a foreign apartheid state (iow i will not be pounding the pavement for him next time around nor will my friends, backbone matters). so watch america go down the tubes with a fanatical christian president and then talk to us about the plight of jews. because the only place those christian fundies want you is in israel so their messiah will return. won’t that be cheery/NOT.

        your messaging is all wrong elaine. you shouldbe researching what obama has done for israel and point that out for your community, not try putting the pressure on. unless of course you want us to have a president like perry or cain. the country is on a down hill trajectory, or haven’t you noticed?

      • Cliff
        November 21, 2011, 2:33 am

        Ms. Fogel, thank you again for your comment.

        Reading the few comments you’ve made here I can see that the Palestinians do not factor much into your concern for Israel. They are in the periphery. You’re eye is on the prize. I guess I can’t expect more of you.

        Why would you quote Golda Meir when she refers to the Palestinians as a vague abstraction of ‘Arabs’? She also didn’t believe the Palestinians existed.

        And what about Islamophobia? Islamophobia in Europe and in the US trumps antisemitism.

        Do you wish to support Israel until antisemitism no longer exists? Does this imply that one day anti-black racism and anti-Arab racism for example, will cease to exist?

        You keep insinuating and (sometimes saying outright) that I – being a goy – won’t understand where you’re coming from.

        I’ve felt alien in America as well if that is what you’re getting at. I’m Indian. I haven’t been oppressed though and neither have you. Neither have Israelis. We live in the present and as much as you fear the reports of ‘rising antisemitism’ – America is never going to be 1930s Germany. Neither is Europe.

        Just like how we won’t go back to enslaving blacks. People aren’t going to simply forget the Holocaust and start killing/discriminating/etc. Jews.

        And I still don’t understand why the Palestinians have to pay for your historical suffering and for your fears of antisemitism in South America…

        You said that the goyim tell you to ‘get over it’ (the Holocaust). No, I would not ask you to get over something like that. But you need to realize you share this country with mostly non-Jews who have their own stories and experiences and morals and blah blah blah. You also have the people just like that called the Palestinians who are suffering because of Zionism. It is in-built to Zionism unless you think the mainstream Zionist leaders throughout history would have allowed a Arab majority in a Jewish State such as it exists today.

        You don’t make a Jewish State with all those Arabs. And that is why Zionism is colonialism. In practice it is colonialism, racism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing. And you make excuses for it all because of antisemitism.

        Earlier you said you wanted ‘us’ (outside your tribalism) to trust you had good intentions. Tell us, why we should support the JNF and the continued appropriation of Palestinian land? What ‘good’ is there?

      • CloakAndDagger
        November 21, 2011, 3:20 am


        I have no problem with the zionist donors taking all their money and giving it to Israel. It is their money that they (presumably) earned honestly, so they are free to do whatever they choose to do with it. They are under no obligation (except perhaps one of community) to spend that money here, although I, naturally, wish they would. Being a believer in property rights, I concede them the ability to do whatever they wish with their personal wealth, although I find the idea of funding an apartheid state repugnant.

        By the same token, I feel completely in my rights to boycott them and not give my money to them or purchase their products, if I feel that they are not philosophically aligned with me. The same personal property rights apply here as well.

        Where I do have a big problem with zionist deep pockets is when they use those funds to subvert our electoral process by bribing/threatening our congress critters to do their bidding by the power of their purses. Our republic was never meant to be influenced/hijacked by these foreign special interests, and the fact that they have managed to game the system is treasonous to say the least.

        For this, I will do everything in my power to stop them. Anything less would be unpatriotic on my part.

      • Shmuel
        November 21, 2011, 3:53 am

        Ms. Fogel,

        You ask for recognition of the good intentions of American Jews, yet in equating “pro-Palestinian” or “anti-Israeli” with “anti-Semitic” you deny the same recognition to others. Do you think that pro-Palestinian (or pro-human rights) protesters at McGill or Concordia do not have good intentions? Furthermore, do good intentions preclude judgement and condemnation of bad views and actions?

      • dumvitaestspesest
        November 21, 2011, 8:39 am

        Bravo Taxi!!!
        You are so right.
        This woman openly supports “apartheid ethnic-cleansing state of Israel”
        and tries “behind soft words and polite justifications” convince people that she is oh, so damn right. Shame on her!

      • Philip Weiss
        November 21, 2011, 1:23 pm

        And this is why I interpreted your piece as saying Jews will feel unsafe. Because your statement that Obama is expressing the view of “all Americans” and that worries Jews touches on anxieties about anti-Semitism, and the Jewish place in western society.
        When actually our concern for the minority in American life should extend to doing something for the minority in Israel/Palestine, who are being crushed, with American support, and Jewish-American backing of that support.
        Oh, also: Thanks very much for the generosity of spirit, to come here and elaborate on your views, Ms Fogel

      • American
        November 21, 2011, 3:01 pm

        “You said that the goyim tell you to ‘get over it’ (the Holocaust).”

        I wonder if Jews like Elaine want to get over it.
        Anyway, I believe Elaine either had some agenda in her article she didn’t share or admit to here.
        Or her showing with up comments, but not answering or engaging on specific questions, is the zio sweet litle passive- agressive thing to poke their critics and then flit off thinking they’ve at least had the pleasure of fustrating the goy and anti’s.
        Didn’t really see anything in it haven’t seen a hundred times.

      • Shmuel
        November 21, 2011, 3:18 pm

        Anyway, I believe Elaine either had some agenda in her article she didn’t share or admit to here.

        Elaine Fogel, president and CMO of Solutions Marketing & Consulting LLC, is a writer, blogger, speaker, and marketing consultant to nonprofit organizations and businesses across the U.S. and Canada.

      • john h
        November 22, 2011, 2:21 am

        Jewish devotion to the State of Israel. It is our safe place, our refuge

        Thankyou for confirming my belief that Zionism is an ideology that replaces the worship of God with idolatry, today’s golden calf that is the worship of the Land and State of Israel.

        I will end and bid you adieu

      • Shmuel
        November 22, 2011, 2:42 am

        Thankyou for confirming my belief that Zionism is an ideology that replaces the worship of God with idolatry, today’s golden calf that is the worship of the Land and State of Israel.

        It does sound awfully like this, doesn’t it:

        The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my rock, in Him I take refuge; my shield, and my horn of salvation, my high tower.

      • john h
        November 22, 2011, 5:01 am

        Shmuel, what she said was a gift that just jumped out at me. That’s because it was such a literal confirmation of what I’ve been saying quite a lot recently.

        I believe you are seen here as something of an expert on Judaism and things Jewish, just as Hostage is in legal aspects. So I am stoked at your rapid answer, the passage you used, and especially that it was you.


      • Mooser
        November 25, 2011, 3:40 pm

        Jews have carried the weight of persecution for centuries”

        So I can assume, Mrs Fogel, that your avatar photo is not recent? At any rate, I’m sure you look great for a multi-centurion.

      • Mooser
        November 25, 2011, 3:46 pm

        “Unbelievable Elaine”

        No, it’s really not when you consider the fact that both the US and Canada have signed binding agreements which declare that in the case of anti-Semitic hysteria and genocide, all Jews will be given a reasonable amount of time to transfer all their assets, book charter flights to Israel, gather their families, and receive a beautiful parting gift. And America will cry Bon Aliyah! as they see us off!

      • Mooser
        November 25, 2011, 3:55 pm

        “Elaine either had some agenda…”

        To expose the shallowness and stereotypicallity (if that’s the word…) of her thinking along with the depth of her prejudice, with a heaping helping of disrespect for her reader’s intelligence and information?
        Yup, I can just see business execs all over with knotty publicity problems shouting at their assistants:” I’ve just read Mondoweiss. Get me Fogel on the phone and pact her, pronto!”

      • MRW
        November 25, 2011, 6:28 pm

        Yow! Taxi’s on a roll! The hideous Elaine better be paying attention. Or go home to Montreal, where they obviously have her number. Don’t piss off the French.

    • Cliff
      November 20, 2011, 7:22 pm

      Let me also add that ‘hophmi’ and you are both taking things too literally.

      Your view that Obama is hurting Israel or worrying American Jews about America’s unflinching, unwavering support for Zionism is a view that is shared by MANY American Jews (obviously, since you’re talking about Jewish opinion):

      Said you:

      I have seen a shift to the right, not only in the U.S. Jewish community, but in Canada, too. With such a close proximity to the U.S., Canadians have a vested interest in the outcomes of U.S. elections and overall policies. As a result, many acquaintances and family members in my country of origin are disillusioned with Obama and do not support his re-election. And why? Because they believe that he is not a friend of Israel.

      There have been several articles on Mondoweiss that have reported on this sentiment and if it weren’t getting late (and I have 2 exams tomorrow back-to-back) I’d go through the archives.

      I’m sure someone else can. It’s kind of silly to think your view is isolated. It’s not AT ALL.

    • tree
      November 21, 2011, 12:53 am

      My column represents my personal opinion. I would never profess to represent any Jewish American community or even part of one.

      But in your column you did in fact claim to speak for quite a few American Jews. After all, what is

      For Republican Jews, this will serve as political fodder to discredit the president on U.S.-Israel relations. I can just hear the multiple echoes of “I told you so” emanating from the right.

      For Democratic Jews, who have been supportive of the president and his agenda, this faux pas will certainly cause some to rethink their allegiances.

      And, for independent Jewish voters, one can only guess, but for those with strong ties or commitment to Israel, the Obama gaffe may be a tipping point from which there is no return.

      but an attempt to speak for large groups of American Jews.

      I understand that you are speaking as an individual, not as a member of any organization, but you pretty clearly claimed to know how Republican, Democratic, and some indepenedent Jewish voters would react; in effect speaking for them.

      I never said anything about feeling “unsafe” in America. Those are Mr. Weiss’ words.

      No, your words were: ” When the president speaks, even off the record, he speaks on behalf of all Americans. And that’s what will worry many American Jews.” (And you are speaking again for “many” American Jews here.)

      If I understand your comments, you are worried that, because Obama made a comment about “having to deal with” Netanyahu everyday that this somehow signals that the US does not have sufficient allegiance to Israel? I find that highly irrational. One Israeli individual can not be privately criticized, regardless of whether the criticsm has any merit or not, without you and other American Jews questioning the US commitment? The US President not only has to jump, but ask “how high” with a smile on his face everytime he deals with any Israeli, no matter how rightwing or personally reprehensible he is, or else American Jews will get “worried”? I’m sorry but that seems like borderline delusional thinking.

      That said, I commend you for posting here and replying to your critics here.

    • pjdude
      November 25, 2011, 2:18 pm

      Ms fogel I’m really sorry but if your voting more on what a foriegn country needs and wants rather than the needs of your country of residence than your intentions are anything but good. as a member of an electorate you have a duty to vote in a way that is best for the country of that electorate. I agree getting the US to support Israel is great for Israel and Israelis but it and Israel have done nothing but harm this country and to try and pass that off as good is reprehensible.

      • MRW
        November 25, 2011, 6:32 pm

        “Ms fogel I’m really sorry but if your voting more on what a foriegn country needs and wants rather than the needs of your country of residence than your intentions are anything but good.”


  23. kma
    November 20, 2011, 8:13 pm

    as an American, I resent Israelis interfering with our foreign policy and then calling it “safety”. now the US says it cannot afford education, health care, or social security, but ONLY war! wherever you came from, Fogel, you are not an American, and I prefer Mexican immigrants by far. they Stand With Me on American issues and do not require me to Stand With Mexico to kill people.

  24. American
    November 21, 2011, 1:49 am

    Lordy,Lordy, Lordy!…..Just one other comment on Elaine’s comments.

    “As North American Jews, we must balance our domestic interests with our Jewish/Israeli allegiances. That’s not always easy. In fact, many American Jews have cared so much about Israel that their votes are based more on the U.S. relationship with Israel than on domestic issues.”

    I had 16 years of the finest Jesuit Propaganda 101 thru 104 schooling, and if it wasn’t for my past 10 years exposure to the total narcissistic cluelessness of the Zionists I would swear Elaine is a double agent for the Ayran Nations. She might as well be selling Staples Easy Eject the Jews Buttons with that admission.

    • annie
      November 21, 2011, 1:59 am

      She might as well be selling Staples Easy Eject the Jews Buttons with that admission.

      yeah well i don’t believe it. most american jews are loyal to this country and they vote for matters that mean the most to schools, economy and the environment. if american jews are voting for israel first they should move there and put their vote where their money is. quit highjacking our f’ing elections.

      • Taxi
        November 21, 2011, 2:31 am


        Clearly, with the amount of un-taxable dollars that the American zionist jewish communities raise and personally donate to the Apartheid state of israel, instead of to OUR needy schools and the well being of our environment, tis clear what’s more important to the majority of them. And with the way our zionist congress deals with domestic issues such as medicare or education, tis clear that they only care to enrich the 1% of our country.

        I don’t believe for a second, because of the american zionist jewish community’s ACTIONS, that they care more about America than they do israel.

        I’ve looked for the contrary evidence but I dare say, I have no found it yet.

        Let’s be honest and call it what it is: American zionist jews, like American christian zionists, have a completely different priority than the rest of us.

        To these people, the old testament is their beloved constitution.

      • American
        November 21, 2011, 2:48 am

        Well, the Jews I know well in my personal life are Southern Jews, all mixed marriages, married to non Jews, and who’ve never been to Israel and don’t care about it as far as I know, except when the subject of Israel comes up it makes them uncomfortable.
        Anyway, I’ve given up trying to figure out how many Jews are this, that or the other, pro or con, what the percentages are, which way the community leans as a whole, analyzing their psyches, it’s a maze.
        Don’t think it matters really, the Israel/ US Jewish Zionist thing is going to play out however it is going to play out and right now I don’t have the slightest clue what that is. I think all of it is up in the air, in a holding pattern, subject to change,……..the only thing constant is Israel’s kamikaze act and the zios dancing on the US roof tops. The only
        actual thing I see determining general attitudes towards US Jews would be a war for Israel or more globs of US billions shelled out to them proudly announced by congress. I’ve seen more complaints about money given to the “Jewish state”, than I’ve seen worry about attacking Iran for them.

      • Philip Weiss
        November 21, 2011, 1:24 pm

        i agree that almost all american jews are american all the way… and yes, that some of them by saying that us and israel have the same interest, which is b.s., have managed to think that they are not hurting u.s. by pushing for settlers in w.b., etc

      • Mooser
        November 25, 2011, 4:21 pm

        I feel for Ms. Fogel. It’s a hell of a thing when you bring forth your best material, time-tested vintage whines, and the crowd throws it back in your face. Although it must have been a little disconcerting when even the “Golda” quotes failed to bring home the bacon.

      • MRW
        November 25, 2011, 6:37 pm

        I love you, Mooser.

  25. American
    November 21, 2011, 4:01 am

    I just looked at Elaines World Jewish link on ” horrific”anti semitic acts.
    While definitely not nice, I don’t see any Jews killed, tortured, kidnapped, put in the hospital or their homes bulldozed down.
    What I do see by the nature of the acts is that people everywhere just care less and less about anti semitic pc. It’ s like some of this stuff was done or said just to say up yours.

    World Jewish Congress calls for probe of brutal attack against head of Jewish school in Argentina
    The WJC has condemned Monday’s vicious anti-Semitic attack against the director of an Orthodox Jewish school in Buenos Aires. Rabbi Moshe Cohen was accosted by a man who yelled “Dirty Jew” and other insults against him and hit him on the head with a nunchaku.

    Slight rise in anti-Semitic acts in Germany as vandals strike at Berlin’s Weißensee Cemetery
    Medal bits stolen from jewish gravestones.

    Academic sues British labor union for “harassment” of Jewish members
    British academic and pro-Israel activist Ronnie Fraser has filed a lawsuit against the University and College Union (UCU), of which he is a member, claiming it has created a “degrading, humiliating and offensive environment” for its Jewish members.
    Another money lawsuit.

    Spanish Jews outraged at acquittal of neo-Nazis by High Court

    The Jewish Community Federation of Spain has strongly criticized the decision by the High Court to quash a lower court’s decision which had found four persons linked to the Kalki bookshop in Barcelona guilty of incitement to hatred and anti-Semitism.

    Synagogue in Maryland attacked by vandals
    Swastikas and anti-Semitic slogans including the Nazi slogans “Arbeit macht frei” (Work will set you free) and “Juden raus” (Jews out) were spray-painted on the outside of a synagogue in Olney, Maryland

    German neo-Nazi legislator suspended after calling Israel “Jewish terror state”
    A member of a state legislature in Germany has been suspended for six months after calling Israel a “Jewish terror state” and speaking of a “thriving Holocaust industry”.

    UK lottery cash funds Jew-hate jamboree – Jewish Chronicle, UK 18 Nov 2011
    The Arts Council in England has defended funding of a concert by the author of what the Community Security Trust branded “quite probably the most anti-Semitic book published in this country in recent years” by saying that it helps to “present a diverse view of world society”. read more »

    Police investigate possible hate crime in Jewish New York neighborhood – CNN, USA 14 Nov 2011
    Police are investigating what authorities say could be a hate crime in a Jewish section of Brooklyn, New York, after three cars were set ablaze and anti-Semitic graffiti was scrawled across park benches.’
    Er…..I think I’ve seen this car insurance scam before.

    Delta criticized for helping to implement Saudi travel restrictions on Jews
    Jews and passengers carrying any non-Islamic article of faith such as bibles will reportedly not be able to fly code-share flights from the US to Saudi Arabia under Delta Air Lines’ new partnership with Saudi Arabian Airlines.

    Malaysian soccer federation says sorry to Israeli player for suffering anti-Semitic abuse
    The Football Association of Malaysia has offered a qualified apology to the leading English soccer club Chelsea FC and its Israeli player Yossi Benayoun for any anti-Semitic abuse suffered during a recent match in the capital Kuala Lumpur

    Apple pulls plug on ‘Jew or not Jew’ iPhone app – but only in France
    Following pressure from French Jewish institutions and anti-racism campaigners, the IT giant Apple Inc. has removed from its French online store an application called ‘Jew or Not Jew’ that claims to allow users to identify whether a politician or celebrity is Jewish.

    That Apple one is hysterical….Jews getting profiled instead of Muslims.

  26. ElaineFogel
    November 21, 2011, 12:16 pm

    Let me add one more comment in response to your previous ones.

    First, I respect all your opinions and realize that we are certainly not going to agree. We are coming at this situation from two completely different paradigms. And, as you place shame on me, or chastise me for my beliefs, remember that I am entitled to my opinion and belief system just as much as you are.

    I resent being called a racist. I recognize that Palestinians are entitled to a state of their own and I pray that it happens soon so everyone in the Middle East can live in peace. Frankly, that is all Israel ever wanted.

    You may not recognize the history here, but there is a rich history of the Arabs refusing to negotiate post the 1948 U.N. resolution that created the State of Israel. Instead, they declared war. During White House negotiations, Yasser Arafat was offered everything he wanted, but he still refused to agree to peace.

    They have waged war, lobbied missiles, terrorized the people, encouraged and commended their children to blow themselves up with as many Jews as they could take with them, and have done everything to get rid of Israel. That mission is still part of most of the regional terrorist groups today.

    Thank goodness that recent Palestinian polls show the majority of people are tired and want to negotiate a peace settlement. Their first choice? To have Israelis fall under Palestinian rule. That’s not quite what Israelis have in mind. Will they accept a two-state solution? I hope they do or the situation will continue.

    I will end and bid you adieu with this last quote from Golda Meir:
    “We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.”

    I wish you well and hope that one day soon, a discussion like this will be superfluous.

    • Donald
      November 21, 2011, 12:44 pm

      My gosh, every hasbara cliche ever written packed into a few paragraphs, culminating in Golda’s racist “shooting and crying” quote. Well done.

    • Shmuel
      November 21, 2011, 1:13 pm

      You may not recognize the history here

      I’m afraid you’ve got the wrong crowd. Most of the commenters here are quite well read, and actually do know their history. The thesis you present of the ever-outstretched Israeli hand and perpetual Arab rejectionism could not be further from the truth. Avi Shlaim, for example, has written about the rebuffed overtures of Arab leaders before and after 1948, and Tom Segev (among others) has asserted that the refusal of Israeli leaders to talk to the PLO (Golda Meir, whom you seem to admire so much, was unwilling to recognise even the existence of the Palestinian people) delayed peace talks by some 25 years. Imagine how much easier and more productive such talks might have been before the bulk of the settlements had been built.

      Did you really have to end with one (two?) of the most arrogant, patronising, racist statements ever made by an Israeli leader? On the other hand, you have illustrated one of the main obstacles to peace: the failure to recognise the full and equal humanity of Palestinians.

      • Philip Weiss
        November 21, 2011, 1:29 pm

        Shmuel, isn’t it true that Arab states essentially rejected Partition. I would have if I were an Arab state! Of course there were Jewish hostilities from the start in the Yishuv, but I think there’s a rich history of Arab and Palestinian rejection of partition as unfair.
        Obviously different from the history of recognition of Israel among Arabs, leading to Arab Peace Initiative. But if there is one secular democracy in I/P, as many here envision the future, it will happen in some not small measure because of Arab agency– rejection of Partition. And yes I know Israel had no interest in Partition either….

      • tree
        November 21, 2011, 2:19 pm


        Shmuel’s right. Although the Arab states rejected Partition prior to the 1948 war, after the war they were willing to recognize the fait accompli and made several overtures towards peace with Israel, including several overtures made by Nasser himself. Israel rejected them all, and proceeded to conspire with France and Britain to invade the Sinai in 1956, with Ben Gurion even proposing a more elaborate plan at that time to invade Lebanon (which was only implemented decades later). You really should read Shlaim on this. (The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World)

        And likewise, the PLO made several overtures to negotiate with Israel during the time when Israel made it illegal for any Israeli to speak with them.

        Sadly, Fogel is simply regurgitating Israeli myths that were first punctured by Simha Flapan 30 years ago, and refuted by the New Historians. I think it would be a fascinating psychological study to find out why some people who claim to believe that Israel is so important to them, refuse to bother to find out what it really is.

      • Shmuel
        November 21, 2011, 2:26 pm


        Shlaim’s argument is not as shallow as the official Zionist version. He merely points out that there were Arab leaders willing to cut deals, and BG wasn’t interested, because peace did not serve his agenda.

        As for partition itself, the ’47 version was widely rejected by Palestinians and Arabs in general (including their leaders), but remember that the Arab governments – presumably with Palestinian support – were willing to pursue the UNSCOP minority proposal, and would undoubtedly have done so had the US and the USSR not bulldozed the majority proposal through the GA faster than you can say “cold war” (while Zionist facts were being created on the ground in Palestine). Rejecting partition as envisaged in the UNSCOP majority proposal did not mean rejecting peaceful compromise with a Jewish national presence in Palestine and, as it turned out, accepting the proposal was not necessarily indicative of peaceful intentions.

      • American
        November 21, 2011, 2:32 pm

        As the Arabs see the Jews”
        His Majesty King Abdullah,
        The American Magazine
        November, 1947

        I am especially delighted to address an American audience, for the tragic problem of Palestine will never be solved without American understanding, American sympathy, American support.

        So many billions of words have been written about Palestine—perhaps more than on any other subject in history—that I hesitate to add to them. Yet I am compelled to do so, for I am reluctantly convinced that the world in general, and America in particular, knows almost nothing of the true case for the Arabs.

        We Arabs follow, perhaps far more than you think, the press of America. We are frankly disturbed to find that for every word printed on the Arab side, a thousand are printed on the Zionist side.

        There are many reasons for this. You have many millions of Jewish citizens interested in this question. They are highly vocal and wise in the ways of publicity. There are few Arab citizens in America, and we are as yet unskilled in the technique of modern propaganda.

        The results have been alarming for us. In your press we see a horrible caricature and are told it is our true portrait. In all justice, we cannot let this pass by default.

        Our case is quite simple: For nearly 2,000 years Palestine has been almost 100 per cent Arab. It is still preponderantly Arab today, in spite of enormous Jewish immigration. But if this immigration continues we shall soon be outnumbered—a minority in our home.

        Palestine is a small and very poor country, about the size of your state of Vermont. Its Arab population is only about 1,200,000. Already we have had forced on us, against our will, some 600,000 Zionist Jews. We are threatened with many hundreds of thousands more.

        Our position is so simple and natural that we are amazed it should even be questioned. It is exactly the same position you in America take in regard to the unhappy European Jews. You are sorry for them, but you do not want them in your country.

        We do not want them in ours, either. Not because they are Jews, but because they are foreigners. We would not want hundreds of thousands of foreigners in our country, be they Englishmen or Norwegians or Brazilians or whatever.

        Think for a moment: In the last 25 years we have had one third of our entire population forced upon us. In America that would be the equivalent of 45,000,000 complete strangers admitted to your country, over your violent protest, since 1921. How would you have reacted to that?

        Because of our perfectly natural dislike of being overwhelmed in our own homeland, we are called blind nationalists and heartless anti-Semites. This charge would be ludicrous were it not so dangerous.

        No people on earth have been less “anti-Semitic” than the Arabs. The persecution of the Jews has been confined almost entirely to the Christian nations of the West. Jews, themselves, will admit that never since the Great Dispersion did Jews develop so freely and reach such importance as in Spain when it was an Arab possession. With very minor exceptions, Jews have lived for many centuries in the Middle East, in complete peace and friendliness with their Arab neighbours.

        Damascus, Baghdad, Beirut and other Arab centres have always contained large and prosperous Jewish colonies. Until the Zionist invasion of Palestine began, these Jews received the most generous treatment—far, far better than in Christian Europe. Now, unhappily, for the first time in history, these Jews are beginning to feel the effects of Arab resistance to the Zionist assault. Most of them are as anxious as Arabs to stop it. Most of these Jews who have found happy homes among us resent, as we do, the coming of these strangers.

        I was puzzled for a long time about the odd belief which apparently persists in America that Palestine has somehow “always been a Jewish land.” Recently an American I talked to cleared up this mystery. He pointed out that the only things most Americans know about Palestine are what they read in the Bible. It was a Jewish land in those days, they reason, and they assume it has always remained so.

        Nothing could be farther from the truth. It is absurd to reach so far back into the mists of history to argue about who should have Palestine today, and I apologise for it. Yet the Jews do this, and I must reply to their “historic claim.” I wonder if the world has ever seen a stranger sight than a group of people seriously pretending to claim a land because their ancestors lived there some 2,000 years ago!

        If you suggest that I am biased, I invite you to read any sound history of the period and verify the facts.

        Such fragmentary records as we have indicate that the Jews were wandering nomads from Iraq who moved to southern Turkey, came south to Palestine, stayed there a short time, and then passed to Egypt, where they remained about 400 years. About 1300 BC (according to your calendar) they left Egypt and gradually conquered most—but not all—of the inhabitants of Palestine.

        It is significant that the Philistines—not the Jews—gave their name to the country: “Palestine” is merely the Greek form of “Philistia.”

        Only once, during the empire of David and Solomon, did the Jews ever control nearly—but not all—the land which is today Palestine. This empire lasted only 70 years, ending in 926 BC. Only 250 years later the Kingdom of Judah had shrunk to a small province around Jerusalem, barely a quarter of modern Palestine.

        In 63 BC the Jews were conquered by Roman Pompey, and never again had even the vestige of independence. The Roman Emperor Hadrian finally wiped them out about 135 AD. He utterly destroyed Jerusalem, rebuilt under another name, and for hundreds of years no Jew was permitted to enter it. A handful of Jews remained in Palestine but the vast majority were killed or scattered to other countries, in the Diaspora, or the Great Dispersion. From that time Palestine ceased to be a Jewish country, in any conceivable sense.

        This was 1,815 years ago, and yet the Jews solemnly pretend they still own Palestine! If such fantasy were allowed, how the map of the world would dance about!

        Italians might claim England, which the Romans held so long. England might claim France, “homeland” of the conquering Normans. And the French Normans might claim Norway, where their ancestors originated. And incidentally, we Arabs might claim Spain, which we held for 700 years.

        Many Mexicans might claim Spain, “homeland” of their forefathers. They might even claim Texas, which was Mexican until 100 years ago. And suppose the American Indians claimed the “homeland” of which they were the sole, native, and ancient occupants until only some 450 years ago!

        I am not being facetious. All these claims are just as valid—or just as fantastic—as the Jewish “historic connection” with Palestine. Most are more valid.

        In any event, the great Moslem expansion about 650 AD finally settled things. It dominated Palestine completely. From that day on, Palestine was solidly Arabic in population, language, and religion. When British armies entered the country during the last war, they found 500,000 Arabs and only 65,000 Jews.

        If solid, uninterrupted Arab occupation for nearly 1,300 years does not make a country “Arab”, what does?

        The Jews say, and rightly, that Palestine is the home of their religion. It is likewise the birthplace of Christianity, but would any Christian nation claim it on that account? In passing, let me say that the Christian Arabs—and there are many hundreds of thousands of them in the Arab World—are in absolute agreement with all other Arabs in opposing the Zionist invasion of Palestine.

        May I also point out that Jerusalem is, after Mecca and Medina, the holiest place in Islam. In fact, in the early days of our religion, Moslems prayed toward Jerusalem instead of Mecca.

        The Jewish “religious claim” to Palestine is as absurd as the “historic claim.” The Holy Places, sacred to three great religions, must be open to all, the monopoly of none. Let us not confuse religion and politics.

        We are told that we are inhumane and heartless because do not accept with open arms the perhaps 200,000 Jews in Europe who suffered so frightfully under Nazi cruelty, and who even now—almost three years after war’s end—still languish in cold, depressing camps.

        Let me underline several facts. The unimaginable persecution of the Jews was not done by the Arabs: it was done by a Christian nation in the West. The war which ruined Europe and made it almost impossible for these Jews to rehabilitate themselves was fought by the Christian nations of the West. The rich and empty portions of the earth belong, not to the Arabs, but to the Christian nations of the West.

        And yet, to ease their consciences, these Christian nations of the West are asking Palestine—a poor and tiny Moslem country of the East—to accept the entire burden. “We have hurt these people terribly,” cries the West to the East. “Won’t you please take care of them for us?”

        We find neither logic nor justice in this. Are we therefore “cruel and heartless nationalists”?

        We are a generous people: we are proud that “Arab hospitality” is a phrase famous throughout the world. We are a humane people: no one was shocked more than we by the Hitlerite terror. No one pities the present plight of the desperate European Jews more than we.

        But we say that Palestine has already sheltered 600,000 refugees. We believe that is enough to expect of us—even too much. We believe it is now the turn of the rest of the world to accept some of them.

        I will be entirely frank with you. There is one thing the Arab world simply cannot understand. Of all the nations of the earth, America is most insistent that something be done for these suffering Jews of Europe. This feeling does credit to the humanity for which America is famous, and to that glorious inscription on your Statue of Liberty.

        And yet this same America—the richest, greatest, most powerful nation the world has ever known—refuses to accept more than a token handful of these same Jews herself!

        I hope you will not think I am being bitter about this. I have tried hard to understand that mysterious paradox, and I confess I cannot. Nor can any other Arab.

        Perhaps you have been informed that “the Jews in Europe want to go to no other place except Palestine.”

        This myth is one of the greatest propaganda triumphs of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, the organisation which promotes with fanatic zeal the emigration to Palestine. It is a subtle half-truth, thus doubly dangerous.

        The astounding truth is that nobody on earth really knows where these unfortunate Jews really want to go!

        You would think that in so grave a problem, the American, British, and other authorities responsible for the European Jews would have made a very careful survey, probably by vote, to find out where each Jew actually wants to go. Amazingly enough this has never been done! The Jewish Agency has prevented it.

        Some time ago the American Military Governor in Germany was asked at a press conference how he was so certain that all Jews there wanted to go to Palestine. His answer was simple: “My Jewish advisors tell me so.” He admitted no poll had ever been made. Preparations were indeed begun for one, but the Jewish Agency stepped in to stop it.

        The truth is that the Jews in German camps are now subjected to a Zionist pressure campaign which learned much from the Nazi terror. It is dangerous for a Jew to say that he would rather go to some other country, not Palestine. Such dissenters have been severely beaten, and worse.

        Not long ago, in Palestine, nearly 1,000 Austrian Jews informed the international refugee organisation that they would like to go back to Austria, and plans were made to repatriate them.

        The Jewish Agency heard of this, and exerted enough political pressure to stop it. It would be bad propaganda for Zionism if Jews began leaving Palestine. The nearly 1,000 Austrian are still there, against their will.

        The fact is that most of the European Jews are Western in culture and outlook, entirely urban in experience and habits. They cannot really have their hearts set on becoming pioneers in the barren, arid, cramped land which is Palestine.

        One thing, however, is undoubtedly true. As matters stand now, most refugee Jews in Europe would, indeed, vote for Palestine, simply because they know no other country will have them.

        If you or I were given a choice between a near-prison camp for the rest of our lives—or Palestine—we would both choose Palestine, too.

        But open up any other alternative to them—give them any other choice, and see what happens!

        No poll, however, will be worth anything unless the nations of the earth are willing to open their doors—just a little—to the Jews. In other words, if in such a poll a Jew says he wants to go to Sweden, Sweden must be willing to accept him. If he votes for America, you must let him come in.

        Any other kind of poll would be a farce. For the desperate Jew, this is no idle testing of opinion: this is a grave matter of life or death. Unless he is absolutely sure that his vote means something, he will always vote for Palestine, so as not to risk his bird in the hand for one in the bush.

        In any event, Palestine can accept no more. The 65,000 Jews in Palestine in 1918 have jumped to 600,000 today. We Arabs have increased, too, but not by immigration. The Jews were then a mere 11 per cent of our population. Today they are one third of it.

        The rate of increase has been terrifying. In a few more years—unless stopped now—it will overwhelm us, and we shall be an important minority in our own home.

        Surely the rest of the wide world is rich enough and generous enough to find a place for 200,000 Jews—about one third the number that tiny, poor Palestine has already sheltered. For the rest of the world, it is hardly a drop in the bucket. For us it means national suicide.

        We are sometimes told that since the Jews came to Palestine, the Arab standard of living has improved. This is a most complicated question. But let us even assume, for the argument, that it is true. We would rather be a bit poorer, and masters of our own home. Is this unnatural?

        The sorry story of the so-called “Balfour Declaration,” which started Zionist immigration into Palestine, is too complicated to repeat here in detail. It is grounded in broken promises to the Arabs—promises made in cold print which admit no denying.

        We utterly deny its validity. We utterly deny the right of Great Britain to give away Arab land for a “national home” for an entirely foreign people.

        Even the League of Nations sanction does not alter this. At the time, not a single Arab state was a member of the League. We were not allowed to say a word in our own defense.

        I must point out, again in friendly frankness, that America was nearly as responsible as Britain for this Balfour Declaration. President Wilson approved it before it was issued, and the American Congress adopted it word for word in a joint resolution on 30th June, 1922.

        In the 1920s, Arabs were annoyed and insulted by Zionist immigration, but not alarmed by it. It was steady, but fairly small, as even the Zionist founders thought it would remain. Indeed for some years, more Jews left Palestine than entered it—in 1927 almost twice as many.

        But two new factors, entirely unforeseen by Britain or the League or America or the most fervent Zionist, arose in the early thirties to raise the immigration to undreamed heights. One was the World Depression; the second the rise of Hitler.

        In 1932, the year before Hitler came to power, only 9,500 Jews came to Palestine. We did not welcome them, but we were not afraid that, at that rate, our solid Arab majority would ever be in danger.

        But the next year—the year of Hitler—it jumped to 30,000! In 1934 it was 42,000! In 1935 it reached 61,000!

        It was no longer the orderly arrival of idealist Zionists. Rather, all Europe was pouring its frightened Jews upon us. Then, at last, we, too, became frightened. We knew that unless this enormous influx stopped, we were, as Arabs, doomed in our Palestine homeland. And we have not changed our minds.

        I have the impression that many Americans believe the trouble in Palestine is very remote from them, that America had little to do with it, and that your only interest now is that of a humane bystander.

        I believe that you do not realise how directly you are, as a nation, responsible in general for the whole Zionist move and specifically for the present terrorism. I call this to your attention because I am certain that if you realise your responsibility you will act fairly to admit it and assume it.

        Quite aside from official American support for the “National Home” of the Balfour Declaration, the Zionist settlements in Palestine would have been almost impossible, on anything like the current scale, without American money. This was contributed by American Jewry in an idealistic effort to help their fellows.

        The motive was worthy: the result were disastrous. The contributions were by private individuals, but they were almost entirely Americans, and, as a nation, only America can answer for it.

        The present catastrophe may be laid almost entirely at your door. Your government, almost alone in the world, is insisting on the immediate admission of 100,000 more Jews into Palestine—to be followed by countless additional ones. This will have the most frightful consequences in bloody chaos beyond anything ever hinted at in Palestine before.

        It is your press and political leadership, almost alone in the world, who press this demand. It is almost entirely American money which hires or buys the “refugee ships” that steam illegally toward Palestine: American money which pays their crews. The illegal immigration from Europe is arranged by the Jewish Agency, supported almost entirely by American funds. It is American dollars which support the terrorists, which buy the bullets and pistols that kill British soldiers—your allies—and Arab citizens—your friends.

        We in the Arab world were stunned to hear that you permit open advertisements in newspapers asking for money to finance these terrorists, to arm them openly and deliberately for murder. We could not believe this could really happen in the modern world. Now we must believe it: we have seen the advertisements with our own eyes.

        I point out these things because nothing less than complete frankness will be of use. The crisis is too stark for mere polite vagueness which means nothing.

        I have the most complete confidence in the fair-mindedness and generosity of the American public. We Arabs ask no favours. We ask only that you know the full truth, not half of it. We ask only that when you judge the Palestine question, you put yourselves in our place.

        What would your answer be if some outside agency told you that you must accept in America many millions of utter strangers in your midst—enough to dominate your country—merely because they insisted on going to America, and because their forefathers had once lived there some 2,000 years ago?

        Our answer is the same.

        And what would be your action if, in spite of your refusal, this outside agency began forcing them on you?

        Ours will be the same.”

        I consider the King’s plea reasonable. I think about how Americans, how any country, would have reacted if the UN had given away a slice of their country, land their people were living on, to create a alien nation for millions of foreigners. This is 2011, not even 1948, and our Southwest won’t even accept the Mexican economic refugees. This is human nature. When you demand too much and take from people more than they feel safe giving they are going to rebel.
        Israel was a mistake from the beginning it never should have happened.
        After the holocaust even Germany was safe for Jews, Europe, the world has never been safer for Jews than since WWII.
        Despite their nightmares they should have been made to accept that fact and all this trouble and turmoil and chaos would never have happened.

      • eljay
        November 21, 2011, 3:01 pm

        >> I consider the King’s plea reasonable. I think about how … any country[] would have reacted if the UN had given away a slice of their country, land their people were living on, to create a alien nation for millions of foreigners.

        wondering jew, who stands at the correct distance from the “fire”, will be very disappointed by your – and the king’s – lack of “emotional intelligence”. ;-)

      • john h
        November 21, 2011, 3:23 pm

        Thanks for that, American, I hadn’t discovered that one. A valuable addition to my files.

        So many billions of words have been written about Palestine—perhaps more than on any other subject in history—that I hesitate to add to them.

        And that was in 1947, it sure must still be true. I wonder why….

      • American
        November 21, 2011, 3:52 pm

        “by your – and the king’s – lack of “emotional intelligence”. ;-)”

        Your reply to WJ…..ROTFLOL!
        I needed a good laugh today.

      • MRW
        November 25, 2011, 7:12 pm

        American, this is the most amazing post. Do you have a link to the original?

      • MRW
        November 25, 2011, 6:43 pm

        “Frankly, that is all Israel ever wanted.”

        Spare us. You need to read our archives. You are woefully out of touch.

    • dumvitaestspesest
      November 21, 2011, 1:23 pm

      here is a perfect example of a well washed brain in a Zionistic propaganda marinade.
      Gosh. What a pitiful view you are trying to sell.
      Nobody here will buy it, except hopmini and eee.

    • James North
      November 21, 2011, 1:30 pm

      [[Space for Richard Witty to add a comment politely disagreeing with Ms. Fogel, and urging her to “humanize the Other”]]

    • pjdude
      November 25, 2011, 2:33 pm

      this post is so filled with ignorance it just shows how out of touch you really are.

      I resent being called a racist. I recognize that Palestinians are entitled to a state of their own and I pray that it happens soon so everyone in the Middle East can live in peace. Frankly, that is all Israel ever wanted.

      this is a flat out lie. Israel never wanted a seperate palestanian state it wanted all the land

      You may not recognize the history here, but there is a rich history of the Arabs refusing to negotiate post the 1948 U.N. resolution that created the State of Israel. Instead, they declared war. During White House negotiations, Yasser Arafat was offered everything he wanted, but he still refused to agree to peace.

      they never declared war. Israel did. why should they have bother to negiotate after it was shown the world was just going to give away their rights and property? and did you really just repeat that filthy lie about Arafat. if you want respect please respect our intelligence.

      you whine about being called a rascist well than don’t be one.

  27. kma
    November 21, 2011, 1:04 pm

    Fogel’s regurgitated propaganda: ‘we can’t stop killing Arab children because they hate us’. that’s the excuse? that is cold-blooded.

    what is her excuse for the continuing land theft? ‘we can’t stop removing them from their land because – ‘ what? they won’t leave on their own?

    the discussion will be superfluous the day that equal rights are won, but I don’t believe that is the day Fogel hopes for. and as long as my country is supporting the ethnic cleansing, this discussion has only just begun here.

  28. patm
    November 21, 2011, 2:35 pm

    I’m delighted Ms. Fogel has felt a pinch of discomfort in Canada. It means the dedicated human rights activists in Canada are doing their job.

    Fogel claims to have had trouble with Judeophobia at her university. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was York University in Toronto.

    Here’s a repeat of a mondo post I made on Nov. 8, about a new book that deals with this very subject in Canadian universities:

    “No Debate: The Israel Lobby and Free Speech at Canadian Universities”

    “JON THOMPSON is a professor emeritus in the Department of Mathematics and Statistics, University of New Brunswick. He is a former chair of the department and a former president of the faculty union at UNB. He chaired the Academic Freedom and Tenure Committee of the Canadian Association of University Teachers during 1985-1988 and received the James B. Milner Award for contributions to academic freedom in 1993. He chaired the independent committee of inquiry commissioned by CAUT into the dispute involving Dr. Nancy Olivieri, the University of Toronto, the Hospital for Sick Children and Apotex Inc. (1999–2001). He is a member of the Board of Directors of the Harry Crowe Foundation.

    During 2008-2009, Israel lobby organizations made concerted efforts to block a planned conference on statehood for Israel and Palestine at Toronto’s York University. This book is a report of an independent investigation by author Jon Thompson for the Canadian Association of University Teachers, an organization that has been active in the defence of free speech and academic freedoms which have been challenged on Canadian campuses.

    Controversy began at York soon after the Israel-Palestine conference was
    advertised and intensified over the following months. The event was
    repeatedly denounced, and university administrators were deluged by irate
    e-mails and phone calls. York, as the host university, was warned of
    boycotts and the cessation of donations and was denounced in full page
    newspaper ads. When York and its co-sponsors stood their ground, the Israel lobby persuaded the Harper government to contact SSHRC, an academic funding agency also involved with the event. In response, SSHRC made an unprecedented intervention. The Canadian Association of University Teachers then made a public issue of the government’s interference and, in the end, the conference was held as planned.

    This book establishes the facts of the case, provides a context for understanding it, and explores the meaning of academic freedom in Canada. Author Jon Thompson proposes measures which universities and university faculty members can take to better safeguard their ability to discuss and debate ideas which some may wish to silence.”

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