Kheirallah (left) and Amira Awad, injured by IDF attack dogs, 2011. (Photo: Musa Abu Hashhash)
Despite reports Thursday that the Israeli Defense Forces suspended using attack dogs against Palestinians, yesterday the military declared they will continue to use the live animals as “non-lethal weapons.” The review was prompted after an incident last March when an army dog wrangled the arm of Ahmad Shtawi for 10-minutes, locking his jaw on the Palestinian protester, causing him to be hospitalized.
After the March 16, 2012 attack on Shtawi the Popular Struggle Coordination Committee released an account:
For long minutes, the dog would not release its hold of the bleeding arm, even as its handler arrived at the scene and tried to order it to do so. The Border Police officers then arrested Shtawi, despite the fact he was in obvious need of medical attention. Morad Shtawi, a member of the village’s popular committee, tried to reason with the commanding officer into releasing young man. He was then pepper-sprayed and arrested as well.
The military use of dogs against Palestinians is commonplace. Since April 2011, B’tselem has reported eight cases where dogs caused injuries. In one instance, during a raid in Hebron last December, a military dog bit Amira Awad and her son Kheirallah. The dog fractured two of Kheirallah’s fingers.
In the context of the I/P conflict, how many people have died from attack dogs? How many people have died as a result of stones and rocks been thrown at them? As far as I know, none regarding the first example and multiple regarding the latter. Yet Allison is still prepared to call the Palestinian demonstrations as “non-violent” when they continually throw stones and rocks. Do you know what the word hypocrite means Allison?
Figures, giladg… can you provide figures? Indeed, how many people have actually died from rock-throwing?
But even if rocks were that lethal, you’re begging the question in that you’re suggesting that dogs are the response to rocks. Not so. Israeli soldiers fire both rubber-coated and live ammunition, as well as tear-gas canisters, and have tanks with which to grab Palestinian land (which is the reason Palestinians fight back in the first place). In that context, the dogs are a minor weapon, but an especially cruel one in view of the pain they can and do inflict. This has a powerful symbolic value, since unleashing dogs to attack defenseless people has been typical of tyrannical regimes over the centuries.
Also, are you aware that the mista’aravim (Jewish soldiers masquerading as Arabs) frequently mix into the Palestinian crowds and start throwing rocks so that other Israeli soldiers will have an excuse to tear-gas the demonstrators?
@ giladg,
Hypocrite, you say? Allison? Wow!
How many second and third generation holocaust survivors are entitled to German compensation?
Daniel: No 2nd or 3rd generation holocaust survivors are entitled to German compensation.
This video is just for you giladg. The title of the song translates: “They’ve all got tanks, we’ve only got rocks”. The stills shows the great imbalance in power between the occupier and the occupied while you show nothing substantive to support your contention re: deaths from rock-throwing, never mind your denial of the right of Palestinians to resist their oppression and defend themselves from violence.
link to youtube.com
Inanna, why do you not show the video of the dead Jewish family, the Fogels, who were butchered with their young baby stabbed in the heart multiple times? Suffering occurs on both sides, but I don’t need to tell you that, right?
gilad, unlike the systematic state authorized slaughter of palestinians during the gaza massacre, no state or government representing palestine authorized the killing of the fogels. in fact, the justice system used to convict the alleged killers does not convince me they are guilty. the situations are completely different so spare us your ‘both sides’ narrative during an imposed military occupation on millions of people.
Just like Arafat and Barghouti were proven to have been directly involved in ordering terror. You see Annie, you are mistaken here. You are wrong from the left, are wrong from the right, you are wrong from the front, you are wrong from behind, you are wrong from below and you are wrong from above. From every which way, you are wrong on this one. You may be familiar with some aspects of the conflict but sometimes you show ignorance.
While I condemn without reservation the killing of civilians (Israeli or Palestinian) if they weren’t illegal settlers on occupied Palestinian territory I believe the Fogels would be alive today.
I say shame on any Israeli parent who deliberately puts their children in harms way by making them live as settlers. They are doing something clearly prohibited by the 4th Geneva Convention, and they foolishly expect to be able to do it without consequences.
We know because of the number that they kill Israelis have it in for Palestinian children, but you think they would at least love their own a little more.
Suffering occurs disproportionately against the Palestinian people perpetrated by both the Israeli government – backed by the United States – and the illegal settlers and their accomplices and enablers, the world’s most ‘moral’ army, the IDF. The Israelis kill more Palestinian children than Palestinians have killed Israeli civilians in total.
There is no comparison in suffering between the two parties.
Since the very beginning almost, the power dynamic has been steadily maintained as one of a colonial nature. The Israelis are colonizing and occupying Palestine. Not the other way around.
You, giladg, bare no resemblance to the ancient Hebrews from the BCE era – nor does any Jew alive today or yesterday or tomorrow or from hundreds of years ago.
There has been a small continual Jewish population in Palestine but it was nowhere near the exorbitant estimation/factual imagination of Zionist charlatans like those whom you allude to. Or maybe you’re just making shit up as you go – that wouldn’t be surprising for your camp.
The ancient Chinese dynasties didn’t develop an ethnic ‘identity’ in the modern sense until the Han dynasty. The ancient Egyptians are clearly different from present-day Egyptians.
In fact, the people’s of the fertile crescent changed a lot through diffusion. You need to read some actual ancient history. Take a basic college course instead of reading your Torah or Bible because it’s nonsense.
You apply no critical thinking and certainly do not look at the evolution of ancient human civilizations from even the most rudimentary anthropological lens – which again, is something you do initially in any entry-level college course on the subject.
Furthermore, it’s just common sense. We all came from AFRICA. (Except Neanderthals whom originated in Northern Europe)
People didn’t excel over another do to genetic superiority but rather do to geographic luck more or less. Convergent evolution explains why so often we have flood stories in ancient civs – whether it be the Hebrews or the Sumerians – or pyrimiads! Whether it be the Egyptians or the Caral.
The bottom-line is that you and Zionism is narrow-minded. There are other people on this friggin’ planet and when you study history, especially ancient history – you begin to demystify a lot of the supposed uniqueness about particular civilizations.
And after all, isn’t that what your cult is about? Uniqueness? Self-centeredness/self-gratification at the cost of Palestinian suffering? You use Palestinians as your playthings to remind the world (and yourselves apparently; see: ‘Defamation,’ the scene in which the Israeli student who hasn’t endured a goddamn thing in her life lectures us about how because her ‘people’ went through the Holocaust, it’s ok to bulldoze Palestinian homes) of your eternal blah blah.
For example, the Roman empire put down one of the last slave rebellions with a mass crucifixion. You could smell the bodies, see them, etc. and for awhile after the uprising was put down (I believe this is the Spartacus one), there weren’t anymore slave riots for a long time.
Athens – the supposed paragon of democracy in ancient times, whom we hold in high esteem and continually invoke and seek to emulate – only allowed a fraction of their population to vote. Of course – men, citizens, wealthy and near the capital.
Something like 1/3 of the population of ancient Athens was enslaved. Slaves were sterilized. When the Athenians went to war with Sparta (can’t recall which time it was) – there was an entire neutral island they conquered simply because it refused to ally itself with Athens. All the men were killed, and the women and children were enslaved.
What do you know about the ancient kingdoms of Judea and Israel?
I remember one thing clearly being taught to me in school about the history regarding the ancient Hebrews – most of it (if not ALL) relies on the Bible.
And why didn’t the obscure collective, colloquially known as the ‘Jewish people’ whenever the Zionist on MW feels threatened, migrate to Palestine prior to the late 1800s?
Thousands and thousands of years of a meager population of Jews. And then the Zionist movement co-opts collective Jewish identity and Judaism and forms a nationalistic movement. It looks elsewhere, but it ends up in Palestine.
The Zionists who colonized and stole Palestine were predominantly European Jews – end of story. They had no connection to the land of Israel, beyond the mythological. The very idea is an abstraction and powerful delusion that has been best described by Herzl in the phrase, “[...]if you will it, there is no dream.”
In other words, ‘Manifest Destiny.’ You are no different from the invaders who landed on Plymouth Rock, in the sense that your ‘claim’ is no more or less illegitimate and fantastical/delusional.
But yes, back to the main point of contention. Both sides do not suffer equally.
Both sides are not equal. Israel is a colonial power and an oppressor. Palestine and its pseudo-sovereign governmental bodies are dependent on the US and Israel which comprimises it’s own integrity inherently. Hence, there is no real Palestinian government. There is only some combination of identities that culminate in the opposition to Zionist colonialism, as well as the liberation of the Palestinian people in every meaningful sense (and everything in between).
You want to be both the victim, and the oppressor (so as to weird the current power dynamic, then you can taunt and lecture the Palestinians about ‘force’ and shake your head at them when they fire pop rockets or throw pebbles at tanks, while you drop white phosphorous on their children and destroy their cities in their entirety) – although you mask ‘oppressor’ as the most ‘moral’ whatever or some variant of the tough Israeli ‘never again’ Jew.
Really though, you’re (and the rest of Zionism) are pure and simple-minded villains.
uh, proven by whom? when we set up a court made up of palestinians to decide which israelis are guilty of crimes come back and we’ll chat about ‘proven’. g’by.
The settlers are the hero’s of our time. They understand the Arab and Muslim mentality better than anyone else and are not prepared to sit back in Tel-Aviv and wait for the next attack. There were no settlements of the type seen today, prior to 1967. Why did this “small” fact not prevent the Arabs and Muslims massing on Israel’s borders and closing off its shipping lanes? Oops.
You’re nuts.
The presence of the settlers in OPTs is a war crime.
So you think settlers in the West Bank are preventing Egypt pushing troops into the Sinai or closing the Straits of Tirana? Well please do be my guest and explain that one!
And on the Straits of Tiran (my emphasis):
Despite this, according to Major General Indar Jit Rikhye, military adviser to the United Nations Secretary General, the accusation of a blockade was “questionable,” pointing out that an Israeli-flagged ship had not passed through the straits in two years, and that “The U.A.R. [Egyptian] navy had searched a couple of ships after the establishment of the blockade and thereafter relaxed its implementation.”[2]
link to en.wikipedia.org
There were no settlements of the type seen today, prior to 1967. Why did this “small” fact not prevent the Arabs and Muslims massing on Israel’s borders and closing off its shipping lanes? Oops.
Well the settlers didn’t launch the preemptive strike on the Egyptian airfields in their imaginary Lavi fighter aircraft, now did they? Those dirt scratchers were given money and credit to purchase state of the art gentile weaponry for that job.
By 1973 the Egyptians proved that they too could exploit a first strike and hold their own against the IDF when they were fighting under a surface to air missile umbrella. These days the Egyptians have +1,000 M1 Abrams main battle tanks that they manufacture for themselves under a US license and modern low, medium and high altitude SAMs of American, French, and Russian design. The backbone of the Egyptian Air Force is made-up of 240 F-16 fighters.
Even Israelis regard them as parasites.
But there was an occupation between Israel’s 1948 borders and the Armistice line.
We’ve already heard from Israel’s leaders that the troops amassed on the Egytptian border was not an act of agression and that the so called blockade only lasted a week and was finished 2weeks before Israel attacked Egypt.
@ giladg: What a way to live with armed and dangerous bandit squatters on your land believing they are entitled to it and you are not. If that’s not insanity what is!
First it was the land of the Jewish people. Then it was the land of local Arabs who never identified as Palestinian. Then recently, some of them started to identify as Palestinian. So the land is now part of two people.
Most of the Jewish settlements were built on hilltops never cultivated or previously inhabited. The Palestinians have their sights on bigger prizes and they conveniently use the my land / your land story to lead you blind. What you should be doing Blake, is calling on the Palestinians to recognize the Jewish entity. They have never accepted that there are Jewish rights as well because if they did, they would have to talk about sharing.
First it was the land of the Jewish people.
you mean it was completely uninhabited before the jews arrived. somehow i find this rather unfathomable. or is that just when you start history?
Back then they were not Palestinians. Why do you refuse to understand and refuse internalize this?
What was the common theme that held those non-Jews together back then? Tell us Annie.
I think what he means, Annie, is that it was the homeland of the Jews before it was the homeland of the Arabs, Palestinians or otherwise. I don’t think he means first as in “previously empty”. If so his point is hardly controversial. Unless of course you’d like to refute the history of Christianity, or the Roman Empire, of Hellenism, of the Persian empire, of ancient Egypt, and so on.
You might of course say that it’s not very important, one way or the other; better to concentrate on the present and future than on ancient history. But you see, the ancient history is part of the present conflict. Most Israeli Jews will easily recongnize a conflict between two groups, each of which has legitimate claim to the same tiny land. Most Palestinian figures who engage in negotiations or inform Palestinian public opinion, reject the Jewish claim. This dynamic makes attainment of some sort of compromise effectively impossible, or at least it has so far.
It does not belong to any ‘Jewish people’ relevant today. Your ancient history is a sham.
If you concentrate on the present, and I assume Winnica is referring to the past 70 years, then the only conclusion is that Jews have no right to live in this land, any of it. Not Tel-Aviv, not Tsfat, not Haifa, Bersheva, nowhere. However, if you open the door to history, then it is not good enough to open it slightly. You need to go back 3,500 years and not only 1,400 years.
You know what, don’t go back 3,500. Go back 2,000 years where, thank the Lord, we have the Torah, the Dead Sea Scrolls and also the works of the historian, Josephus Flavius. These are monumental works with massive, massive implications on our lives today. The same Torah then as today. The same language then as today. What other people can say this? And when you are able to bring yourself to understand that the door to history must be opened, then you should turn to the Palestinians and demand from them to accept Jews as part of this land, all of it, and to pull back from some of their demands, especially on Jerusalem.
i know what he means winnica, it is a sentence steeped in propaganda. you can play around with framing til the cows come home. but you, i and everyone else knows that to some people everything begins in the region with jews.
but guess what, there was no concept of ‘homeland’ back then that was exclusively jewish. if ones homeland is where one was born and raised or where ones ancestors lived than for any person who lived there, it was their homeland. it doesn’t matter what they called themselves. what name..whether it was palestinian or arab or mohammed or adam and eve. it’s completely irrelevant.
so you are wrong that it was the homeland of jews before it was anyone else’s homeland. it was the homeland of those who called it home. life didn’t begin there with jewish life. it began with the inhabitants whoever they were.
his point is hardly controversial.
in your dreams. his pt, is bs. merely a rhetorical tool to establish when the land became important, for some people. whereas the land was also important for others long dead.
there is a difference between rejecting a jewish claim the land was at one time a jewish homeland, it’s another to reject a claim that grants some kind of present day right that supercedes the rights of others. that is what zionists seek to do to justify their present ethnic cleansing and brutality and colonialism. and it all starts with the claim/illusion of ‘first’.
gilad, the idea of going back 3500 years to justfy a land claim is insane. get.grip.
What was the common theme that held those non-Jews together back then? Tell us Annie.
? i have no idea where you are going with this gilad.
Back then they were not Palestinians.
a rose by any other name …. if your point is that no palestinians living today are descendents of people who have lived in the region prior to jews just say so. it’s a complete distraction. figuring out dna will not move this situation forward. you are simply filling the space up w/narrative. biblical narrative. boring and irrelevant. i am a secular person.
But Annie, the level and type of rejection the Arabs and Muslims display towards Jews, does not seem to bother you at all. They base their positions on religion and you push that aside in your own mind and focus totally on the trauma of one losing his/her home. If its just a home, then pay them compensation and convince them that living elsewhere in the Middle East is also okay. They are not going to agree to this of course, why? Because of the religious connection. If Jews were the first to have this religious connection, then being secular and letting the Palestinians of the hook, is very shallow on your part.
What I am trying to highlight is that during the 1,500 years from the time of Abraham to the destruction of the Second Jewish Temple in 70AD, the locals of that time have little or no connection to the Palestinians of today. There is no evidence, whatsoever, that connects the modern day Palestinians to the local population of that time. This includes the Philistines (David and Goliath) with their small geographical influence. The Assyrians and the Egyptians had significant influence in the region. So did the Greeks and the Romans. After the destruction of the Jewish Temples and the power vacuum that resulted, the Muslims moved in nearly a thousand years later. Many of the current day Palestinians came from other lands, including the geographical areas covered by Egypt and Syria, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Whatever claim the Palestinians think they have, they cannot dismiss the Jewish history that has gone before them. Of course they want to and you are allowing them to get away with murder.
Remember, there were no borders back then. Rather regional influence. You mistakenly project what you see as borders today on biblical times. This is wrong and it distorts your ability to understand the Jewish position. The Palestinians of today have their roots in Egypt (every second person in Gaza is name Massri), Syria, Iraq and Saudi Arabia but I don’t dismiss their modern day connection. They must not dismiss the ancient Jewish connection.
the level and type of rejection the Arabs and Muslims display towards Jews, does not seem to bother you at all.
why are you diverting again? here is what i responded to:
now you want to talk about what we’re not talking about. specifically me, and what does and does not bother me. i entered the conversation to obliterate your crazy narrative/justification…”If Jews were the first to have this religious connection”..bla bla bla.
you push that aside in your own mind and focus totally on the trauma of one losing his/her home
i did not even address the trauma of loosing ones home. what thread are you on?
If its just a home, then pay them compensation and convince them that living elsewhere in the Middle East is also okay.
i will address this after you tell me how much money you think jews would take to abandon israel. i need to understand how much monetary value you place on the land. then we will talk about compensation.
this ‘religious connection’ is all your framing and now you are holding on to it like a dog with a favorite bone. let’s review where i entered this conversation:
link to mondoweiss.net
you are all over the map now getting adie homie. not biting.
Back then they were not Palestinians. Why do you refuse to understand and refuse internalize this?
Back then people from Ur of the Chaldees weren’t really Jews or Hebrews either. That’s just an anachronistic fabrication to conceal the truth about their real “ancestral homeland”.
Nowadays if a traveler from Ur attempted to climb Mount Moriah to sacrifice his “first born” son in response to Divine instructions, you would reasonably conclude that the patient was suffering from Jerusalem Syndrome.
There is no evidence, whatsoever, that connects the modern day Palestinians to the local population of that time.
unlike all those russian/european jews? uh huh. are you speculating there’s more of a dna connection between avigdor lieberman and ‘the hebrews’(and speaking of no physical evidence thus far we have no actual physical evidence of ‘king david’ rule other than story books) as opposed to marwan barghouti and a person who lived on the land back then?
and if so, so what? unless a person recognizes real estate claims based on dna (hello, we don’t). it is completely irrelevant. here is a real estate claim:
link to youtube.com
note the paperwork is a tad more current than the bible?
prove it.
Whether it was exclusively Jewish or partially Jewish, IT WAS JEWISH. There was no other locals at that time in the areas now called Israel, who had a collective identity outside of their village. The 12 Tribes of Israel were united under King David, and the area was much larger than Israel of today. So the 12 Tribes of Israel formed the bond and the concept of a Jewish homeland was born. There was no Islam, there was no Palestinians. I am only pointing this out because the Palestinians of today will do whatever they can to belittle Jewish history. They want Jerusalem above everything else. The other stuff matters little to them. They have no right to Jerusalem, so don’t support them on this. Push them to accept Jewish history. There is a place for them if they do.
The Torah cannot be changed. It has not been changed. The Torah references this land and Jerusalem hundreds of times (zero in the Koran). Jews can share. Jews will not give away the sites holiest to its people.
They speak the same language. They believe in the same God and call him by the same name. They are genetically connected, and many of their forefathers came from the same places. They even look the same, same color and same roots. Yet they are treated like sh1t by their brothers.
The bloated number of 400,000 Palestinians could have been integrated into Lebanon, and should have, long time ago. There have been and there are many tragic cases and stories of refugees. Only with the Palestinians, ONLY!!!!, are 2nd and 3rd and 4th generation counted as refugees as well. All the other cases around the world where they have settled in other countries, the descendants received local citizenship. Makes you think huh?
Makes you think huh?
makes me think you’re skirting on nakba denial..
“There is no evidence, whatsoever, that connects the modern day Palestinians to the local population of that time.”
Oh noes! The shameful secret which invalidates the entire movement for justice for Palestinians is now public knowledge! Whatever will we do? And look, we’ve got to face the fact that it can get worse. I’ve heard reports that the claim that the Palestinians actually lived there when the Zionists came and the Nakba occurred is just a left-wing fabrication!I just don’t see why we don’t give up, if we are faced with implacable opponents like “giladg”, able to hurl indubitably undisprovable facts like thunderbolts!
did you just jump the shark again? you can’t say There was no other locals at that time in the areas now called Israel so you cram in the who had a collective identity to squeeze it into your box.
The 12 Tribes of Israel were united under King David, and the area was much larger than Israel of today.
yada yada yada yada, so what? when are you going to get we completely understand this rationale is just that. a rationale for ethnic cleansing. if there was this yearning together in land of israel they sure fooled everyone by not putting on their walking shoes a century before. and no one cares about thousands of years land claims. no one but people who want to justify land theft.
GiladG
“There have been and there are many tragic cases and stories of refugees. Only with the Palestinians, ONLY!!!!, ”
the Palestinians have been refugees for 60 years. Your people OTOH claim rights going back to a dispersion that happened 2 millennia ago.
Can you explain why 60 years is wrong and 2 thousand years is kosher without wandering into hypocrisy?
I saw 3 Ashkenazi Orhodox Jews on a street in Europe yesterday. There is no way with that skin colour those people are from the Near East.
@giladg: “jewish homeland” ? What a very arrogant and smug thing for you to say self chosen rosen. A figment of your very disturbed indoctrinated to nothing imagination.
And if you believe the Bible: In Galatians Paul explained to the Judeans of his time that there is a New Covenant and that those that follow Christ are the sons of Abraham. Read Galatians, all 6 chapters. Moses Himself said TO THE JUDEANS at the time that in their final days God will rise up a Prophet and they MUST listen to Him and in the Books of Moses through to Revelations reinforce this idea that there would be a new religion of Christ that would replace the temporary religion of Moses.
@ giladg: You need a reality check. Lebanon had no such obligation to make, they offered the terrified Palestinians who were forced to flee on foot a temporary home until they could return to their own homes usurped by you foreign impostors on their land.
Sir Gerald Kaufman, veteran Jewish UK MP:“Yet, culpable though the Lebanese govt undoubtedly is, the real culprit is the Israeli govt, which by refusing to come to a settlement with the Palestinians, is directly & horrendously responsible for the plight of those immured in the camps [in Lebanon]. It makes me more determined than ever to fight for the rights of the Palestinian people & to campaign against the deliberate decision of the Israeli govt to perpetuate the hell in which so many Palestinians are living”.
@ giladg
Please, there is the myth of your cult and then there is real history and science. And you wonder why people call you trolls and idiots? It’s becuase you base all your claims on bible and other myths and refuse to acknowledge real science and history. Posters here have posted time and again the history of the region that historians and archelogy that both agree on.
So once again:
Jerusalem was not founded by Jews, i.e. adherents of the Jewish religion. It was founded between 3000 BCE and 2600 BCE by a West Semitic people or possibly the Canaanites, the common ancestors of Palestinians, Lebanese, many Syrians and Jordanians, and many Jews. But when it was founded Jews did not exist.
Jerusalem was founded in honor of the ancient god Shalem. It does not mean City of Peace but rather ‘built-up place of Shalem.”
The “Jewish people” were not building Jerusalem 3000 years ago, i.e. 1000 BCE. First of all, it is not clear when exactly Judaism as a religion centered on the worship of the one God took firm form. It appears to have been a late development since no evidence of worship of anything but ordinary Canaanite deities has been found in archeological sites through 1000 BCE. There was no invasion of geographical Palestine from Egypt by former slaves in the 1200s BCE. The pyramids had been built much earlier and had not used slave labor. The chronicle of the events of the reign of Ramses II on the wall in Luxor does not know about any major slave revolts or flights by same into the Sinai peninsula. Egyptian sources never heard of Moses or the 10 plagues & etc. Jews and Judaism emerged from a certain social class of Canaanites over a period of centuries inside Palestine.
Jerusalem not only was not being built by the likely then non-existent “Jewish people” in 1000 BCE, but Jerusalem probably was not even inhabited at that point in history. Jerusalem appears to have been abandoned between 1000 BCE and 900 BCE, the traditional dates for the united kingdom under David and Solomon. So Jerusalem was not ‘the city of David,’ since there was no city when he is said to have lived. No sign of magnificent palaces or great states has been found in the archeology of this period, and the Assyrian tablets, which recorded even minor events throughout the Middle East, such as the actions of Arab queens, don’t know about any great kingdom of David and Solomon in geographical Palestine.
Since archeology does not show the existence of a Jewish kingdom or kingdoms in the so-called First Temple Period, it is not clear when exactly the Jewish people would have ruled Jerusalem except for the Hasmonean Kingdom. The Assyrians conquered Jerusalem in 722. The Babylonians took it in 597 and ruled it until they were themselves conquered in 539 BCE by the Achaemenids of ancient Iran, who ruled Jerusalem until Alexander the Great took the Levant in the 330s BCE. Alexander’s descendants, the Ptolemies ruled Jerusalem until 198 when Alexander’s other descendants, the Seleucids, took the city. With the Maccabean Revolt in 168 BCE, the Jewish Hasmonean kingdom did rule Jerusalem until 37 BCE, though Antigonus II Mattathias, the last Hasmonean, only took over Jerusalem with the help of the Parthian dynasty in 40 BCE. Herod ruled 37 BCE until the Romans conquered what they called Palestine in 6 CE (CE= ‘Common Era’ or what Christians call AD). The Romans and then the Eastern Roman Empire of Byzantium ruled Jerusalem from 6 CE until 614 CE when the Iranian Sasanian Empire Conquered it, ruling until 629 CE when the Byzantines took it back.
The Muslims conquered Jerusalem in 638 and ruled it until 1099 when the Crusaders conquered it. The Crusaders killed or expelled Jews and Muslims from the city. The Muslims under Saladin took it back in 1187 CE and allowed Jews to return, and Muslims ruled it until the end of World War I, or altogether for about 1192 years.
Adherents of Judaism did not found Jerusalem. It existed for perhaps 2700 years before anything we might recognize as Judaism arose. Jewish rule may have been no longer than 170 years or so, i.e., the kingdom of the Hasmoneans.
Therefore if historical building of Jerusalem and historical connection with Jerusalem establishes sovereignty over it as Netanyahu claims, here are the groups that have the greatest claim to the city:
A. The Muslims, who ruled it and built it over 1191 years.
B. The Egyptians, who ruled it as a vassal state for several hundred years in the second millennium BCE.
C. The Italians, who ruled it about 444 years until the fall of the Roman Empire in 450 CE.
D. The Iranians, who ruled it for 205 years under the Achaemenids, for three years under the Parthians (insofar as the last Hasmonean was actually their vassal), and for 15 years under the Sasanids.
E. The Greeks, who ruled it for over 160 years if we count the Ptolemys and Seleucids as Greek. If we count them as Egyptians and Syrians, that would increase the Egyptian claim and introduce a Syrian one.
F. The successor states to the Byzantines, which could be either Greece or Turkey, who ruled it 188 years, though if we consider the heir to be Greece and add in the time the Hellenistic Greek dynasties ruled it, that would give Greece nearly 350 years as ruler of Jerusalem.
G. There is an Iraqi claim to Jerusalem based on the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests, as well as perhaps the rule of the Ayyubids (Saladin’s dynasty), who were Kurds from Iraq.
Source, Thomas Thompson (“The” archeological expert)..according to all non zionist historians— iows, the real historians.
link to amazon.ca
Go back to the oldest documents still in existence that reference the area directly.
@ gilad
Further educational material for you that simply recaps a few main discoveries that debunk the bible and zionist claims.
…..a few excerpts…..
link to worldagesarchive.com
Harper’s Magazine
Not long ago, archaeologists could agree that the Old Testament, for all its embellishments and contradictions, contained a kernel of truth. Obviously, Moses had not parted the Red Sea or turned his staff into a snake, but it seemed clear that the Israelites had started out as a nomadic band somewhere in the vicinity of ancient Mesopotamia; that they had migrated first to Palestine and then to Egypt; and that, following some sort of conflict with the authorities, they had fled into the desert under the leadership of a mysterious figure who was either a lapsed Jew or, as Freud maintained, a high-born priest of the royal sun god Aton whose cult had been overthrown in a palace coup. Although much was unknown, archaeologists were confident that they had succeeded in nailing down at least these few basic facts.
That is no longer the case. In the last quarter century or so, archaeologists have seen one settled assumption after another concerning who the ancient Israelites were and where they came from proved false. Rather than a band of invaders who fought their way into the Holy Land, the Israelites are now thought to have been an ‘indigenous culture that developed west of the Jordan River around 1200 B.C. Abraham, Isaac, and the other patriarchs appear to have been spliced together out of various pieces of local lore.
The Davidic Empire, which archaeologists once thought as incontrovertible as the Roman, is now seen as an invention of Jerusalem-based priests in the seventh and eighth centuries B.C. who were eager to burnish their national history. The religion we call Judaism does not reach well back into the second millennium B.C. but appears to be, at most, a product of the mid-first.
This is not to say that individual elements of the story are not older. But Jewish monotheism, the sole and exclusive worship of an ancient Semitic god known as Yahweh, did not fully coalesce until the period between the Assyrian conquest of the northern Jewish kingdom of Israel in 722 B.C. and the Babylonian conquest of the southern kingdom of Judah in 586.
Some twelve to fourteen centuries of “Abrahamic” religious development, the cultural wellspring that has given us not only Judaism but Islam and Christianity, have thus been erased. Judaism appears to have been the product not of some dark and nebulous period of early history but of a more modern age of big-power politics in which every nation aspired to the imperial greatness of a Babylon or an Egypt. Judah, the sole remaining Jewish outpost by the late eighth century B.C., was a small, out-of-the-way kingdom with little in the way of military or financial clout. Yet at some point its priests and rulers seem to have been seized with the idea that their national deity, now deemed to be nothing less than the king of the universe, was about to transform them into a great power. They set about creating an imperial past commensurate with such an empire, one that had the southern heroes of David and Solomon conquering the northern kingdom and making rival kings tremble throughout the known world. From a “henotheistic” cult in which Yahweh was worshiped as the chief god among many, they refashioned the national religion so that henceforth Yahweh would be worshiped to the exclusion of all other deities. One law, that of Yahweh, would now reign supreme.
This is not, of course, the story that we have all been led to believe is, at least to some degree, history.
A growing volume of evidence concerning Egyptian border defenses, desert sites where the fleeing Israelites supposedly camped, etc., indicates that the flight from Egypt did not occur in the thirteenth century before Christ; it never occurred at all.
Indeed, the chief disagreement among scholars nowadays is between those who hold that David was a petty hilltop chieftain whose writ extended no more than a few miles in any direction and a small but vociferous band of “biblical minimalists” who maintain that he never existed at all.
A new generation of archaeologists has taken everything its teachers said about ancient Israel and stood it on its head. Two myths are being dismantled as a consequence: one concerning the origins of ancient Israel and the other concerning the relationship between the Bible and science. Back in the days when archaeology was buttressing the old biblical tales, the relationship between science and religion had warmed considerably; now the old chill has crept back in. The comfy ecumenicism that allowed one to believe in, say, modern physics and Abraham, Isaac, et al. is disappearing, replaced by a somewhat sharper dividing line between science and faith. ”
Jerusalem Syndrome? never heard of that til now. maybe that explains something, but i don’t know what.
link to en.wikipedia.org
oh, gilad..if it makes you feel any better i’m one of those sticklers who doesn’t have any kind of surety jesus ever existed either. i am just very sceptical. if i had to bet my life on it, or my sons life..i would go with no. there’s something fishy about legends that get written down hundreds of years later. but i think the good stuff about religion is still good and i believe most religious people are good. but please give us some slack here and do not take it personally if secular people have their doubts. it’s not really the sort of thing you can change about a person… their beliefs.
Nice effort American, but you forget one major fact. None of the people you mentioned, besides the Jews, have the deed to the city which is the Torah.
By the way, have you ever visited Jerusalem?
You mistakenly project what you see as borders today on biblical times.
I? I project what I see as borders today on biblical times.
you must be out of your mind!
Another thing American, if presented with the two questions, does G-d exist, or not, only the former an ever be proven as yes. The same goes for the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt. Until then, the story as told from generation to generation is enough for those comfortable being Jewish. What is the point in trying to prove something you know can never be done? The confusion and lack of closure is not good for anyone, even for the agnostics.
have the deed to the city which is the Torah
the deed? the one from god i presume?
is enough for those comfortable being Jewish
that’s not really the problem gilad, it’s that you expect others to believe it too. this alleged ‘right’ and demanding palestinians acknowledge the concept of jewish state or jewish land is perverse. a state is a state, it’s not a belief or religious unless one is speaking for a state of mind.
how can you expect others to accept this? can’t you be private in your beliefs and allow others the same by people respecting eachothers religions? how can you do that when you demand others to accept yours? that is essentially what you are demanding, that others accept your religion as truth, that is different than asking for mutual respect.
Yes, the one from G-d. Prove that it is not.
In any case it’s a whole lot more than what the Palestinians have and I continually tell you, and you refuse to accept, that what is driving the Palestinian leadership is their desire to take over Jerusalem. Believe it. They care precious little for the refugees, or the settlements and would sacrifice them in a flash if presented with a choice between them and a foothold in Jerusalem.
>> Whether it was exclusively Jewish or partially Jewish, IT WAS JEWISH.
So what? That was 2,000 years ago. Since then, it has been anything but “JEWISH”. It was the land of the people who lived there. Hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists had – and continue to have – no right to steal it, colonize it and oppress the people who inhabited it before you and your hateful and immoral co-collectivists came along.
>> … if presented with the two questions, does G-d exist, or not, only the former an ever be proven as yes.
Perhaps it can be proven, but it never has been proven. So now giladgeee is a religious fanatic as well as an idiot. Wonderful.
When you think of Palestinians, do you think of the plus 70% of Jordanians who are Palestinians? If you don’t then go back and think about my comment for a little longer. You may start to see the point I am trying to make, re borders.
Gilad,
I hate to break it to you, but historicity of King David is about as good as King Arthur. Suppose that the Welch and Bretons (and American Welch diaspora!) will start kicking English out of Britannia so they go back to Angle where they belong and try to recreate Arthurian Kingdom, complete with the Camelot. Are you aware how many references to Camelot are there in Arthurian Cycle?
what is driving the Palestinian leadership is their desire to take over Jerusalem. Believe it.
see how much you share in common? right now, as israel is ethnically cleansing jerusalem..as we speak..you are blaming palestinians. can you see your own greed? jerusalem does not belong to jews.
>> Yes, the one from G-d. Prove that it is not.
Hey, giladgeee, god just told me that Palestine belongs to the Palestinians, and that he was kidding about that whole “Jews are the ‘Chosen People’” thing. Prove me wrong.
What a dummy…
When the French march on England, claiming it for themselves, I’ll allow you to reference King Arthur in defence of English sovereignty.
The Temple Mount is the center of Jewish everything. The Palestinians and Muslims want to exclude Jews from this site. This is what the conflict is all about.
obviously it is a little more than that gilad. at least to the fanatical settlers, they want it all. once you get one thing then just more and more. the things you accuse the palestinians of wanting to do is exactly what zionists are doing.
The bloated number of 400,000 Palestinians could have been integrated into Lebanon, and should have, long time ago. There have been and there are many tragic cases and stories of refugees. Only with the Palestinians, ONLY!!!!, are 2nd and 3rd and 4th generation counted as refugees as well. All the other cases around the world where they have settled in other countries, the descendants received local citizenship. Makes you think huh?
We’ve debunked that claim a dozen times here in the past. None of you liars can name any examples where refugee status wasn’t passed from generation to generation in other UNHCR programs.
In 1949 Count Folke Bernadotte was given the relatively simple task of mediating the return of those 400,000 refugees to their homes in Palestine and a peaceful settlement acceptable to the Palestinian majority. Israel falsely claimed that none had been deported or forced to leave. The man who would serve as Israel’s seventh Prime Minister arranged to have Bernadotte assassinated just to be on the safe side. That’s what I think.
In any event, just a few weeks before the President of the ICRC, Count Folke Bernadotte, was assassinated in Jerusalem, the XVIIth ICRC Diplomatic Conference adopted the draft of the Fourth Geneva Convention in August of 1948. It reflected the consensus of the opinion of mankind that refugees should continue to benefit from the protections of the international community until they are repatriated. During the plenary discussions a declaration was issued requesting emergency relief for the Palestinian refugees that had been displaced as a consequence of the armed conflict :
*The Representative of Lebanon, Mrs. Kettaneh said: In this connection I should like to say a few words about the Lebanese Red Cross. In consequence of the armed conflict which broke out as soon as the United Nations voted for the partition of Palestine, the towns, villages and the countryside in our homeland have witnessed the most terrible scenes of misery and distress. In these hundreds of thousands refugees from Palestine have left their homes, fleeing from the ravages of war. Here, at this meeting composed of delegates who are seeking to alleviate human sufferings, I do not think it is necessary to emphasize the distress, the suffering and the pain which we are constantly witnessing. There has been a veritable flood of old people, women and children who have had to leave their country, abandoning their homes, their houses, their businesses, often everything they possessed. The neighboring countries are giving all possible assistance to these refugees; their hospitality is limited only by the extent of their resources. Lebanon is a small country, and yet it has made an immense effort to apply the humanitarian principles which inspire it; it has done everything in its power to alleviate the sufferings of its unhappy guests. (pdf file page 61)
*The Observer from Israel, Dr. Katznelson, said: I wish only to make a few remarks. It is estimated by the United Nations’ experts that some 300,000 Arabs left their places of residence in Palestine but it must be absolutely clear that none of them has been deported or has been requested to leave his place of residence. As a matter of fact, all those who remained, for example, in Nazareth, which I visited before I left and which is now occupied by the forces of my Government, 40,000 Arabs remained in their places of residence and continue to live peacefully and normally. It is a great disaster that many thousands left without any reason and without being in any danger, even before the British left Palestine. (pdf file page 61).
*The Representative of Syria Dr. Kadry replied: I feel in duty bound to concur in the resolution which has been formulated, but I should like to point out that the representative of the Jewish Red Cross has taken advantage of the opportunity which has been offered him to bring into the discussion political questions which are outside the province of our Conference. I could reply to everything he said with regard to the refugees. I will not do so, for everyone knows that these refugees were forced to leave their homes and that those who refused to do so were killed. However, I will bow to the request of the Conference and will not prolong the discussion. (pdf file page 62)
The Arabs that remained in Israel lived under martial law for nearly two decades until 1966. Israel has never offered anything but “arbitrary” excuses since 1948 to explain why it has prevented the refugees that were (supposedly) “never deported or requested to leave” from returning to their own country.
That claim about there being no Palestine has been refuted by maps and references to Palestine and Palestinians in ancient writings. See Maps TelltheTrue Story. The following is an excerpt of information provided by Nima Shirhazi:
Specific references to “Palestine” date back nearly five hundred years before “the time of Jesus.” In the 5th Century BCE, Herodotus, the first historian in Western civilization, referenced “Palestine” numerous times in chronicle of the ancient world, The Histories, including the following passage describing “Syrians of Palestine”:
“…they live in the coastal parts of Syria; and that region of Syria and all that lies between it and Egypt is called Palestine.” (VII.89) The above translation by Harry Carter is featured in the 1958 Heritage Press edition of Herodotus’ famous work. Both older and newer versions corroborate the accuracy of the reference. A. D. Godley’s 1920 translation of the crucial line states, “This part of Syria as far as Egypt is all called Palestine”, while Robin Waterfield’s 1998 updated Oxford translationrenders the passage this way: “This part of Syria, all the way to the border with Egypt, is known as Palestine.”
A hundred years later, in the mid-4th Century BCE, Aristotle made reference to the Dead Sea in his Meteorology. “Again if, as is fabled, there is a lake in Palestine, such that if you bind a man or beast and throw it in it floats and does not sink, this would bear out what we have said,” he wrote. “They say that this lake is so bitter and salt that no fish live in it and that if you soak clothes in it and shake them it cleans them.” (II.3)
Two hundred years later, in the mid-2nd Century BCE, ancient geographer Polemon wroteof a place “not far from Arabia in the part of Syria called Palestine,” while Greek travel writer Pausanias wrote in his Description of Greece, “In front of the sanctuary grow palm-trees, the fruit of which, though not wholly edible like the dates of Palestine, yet are riper than those of Ionia.” (9.19.8)
Despite the Zionists’ claim “the Romans didn’t rename Judea as ‘Palestina’ until a hundred years after the death of Jesus,” contemporaries of Jesus also routinely referred to Palestine as, well, Palestine. For instance, in the first decade of the 1st Century, the Roman poet Ovid mentioned Palestine in both his famed mythological poem Metamorphoses and his erotic elegy The Art of Love. He also wroteof “the waters of Palestine” in his calendrical poem Fasti. Around the same time, another Latin poet Tibullus wroteof “the crowded cities of Palestine” in a section “Messalla’s Triumph” in his poem Delia.
The noted Alexandrian Jewish philosopher Philo, writing around the 1stCentury CE, opined, “Also Syria in Palestine, which is occupied by no small part of the very populous nation of the Jews, is not unproductive of honourable virtue.” (XII.75)
The Jewish historian Josephus (c.37-100 CE) was born and raised in Jerusalem, a military commander in Galilee during the First Jewish Revolt against the occupying Roman authority, acted as negotiator during the Siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE and later penned vital volumes of Levantine Jewish history. His The Jewish War, Antiquities of the Jews, and Against Apion all contain copious references to Palestine and Palestinians. Towards the end of Antiquities, Josephus writes, “I shall now, therefore, make an end here of my Antiquities; after the conclusion of which events, I began to write that account of the war; and these Antiquities contain what hath been delivered down to us from the original creation of man, until the twelfth year of the reign of Nero, as to what hath befallen the Jews, as well in Egypt as in Syria and in Palestine, and what we have suffered from the Assyrians and Babylonians, and what afflictions the Persians and Macedonians, and after them the Romans, have brought upon us; for I think I may say that I have composed this history with sufficient accuracy in all things.” (XX.11.2)
“Back then they were not Palestinians. Why do you refuse to understand and refuse internalize this?
What was the common theme that held those non-Jews together back then? ”
Why does it matter? They were people. They lived there. Their homes were there, so it was their homeland. They had the right to stay there.
“The Palestinians and Muslims want to exclude Jews from this site”
The you really must be a robot.
What have the Jews got to do with the Zionists? If some of them happen to be Israelian Master Race citizens, well of course they should be excluded.
Nonesense. Israel was founded by non religious Jews who had no regard for Jerusalem.
Whether it was exclusively Jewish or partially Jewish, IT WAS JEWISH. There was no other locals at that time in the areas now called Israel, who had a collective identity outside of their village.
That’s pretty nonsensical. There was no definition for “JEWISH” either then or now. Archeologists have discovered horned altars from Dan to Beer Sheva which confirm the existence of altars, on every high hill, on all the mountaintops, and under every green tree. They say that the so-called Israelites were just a competing tribe of Canaanites. The government of Israel admits that there was another Israelite Temple and citadel at Arad in Judea and that the structures were built during the so-called era of King Solomon. Are you really gonna slaughter or deport people from Jerusalem today in order to prop-up and perpetuate a pack of ancient falsehoods? See the MFA webpage on Israelite Temple at Arad
In any event your own myths say that the cities on the coastal plain, including Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Ekron, and Gath belonged to the Philistines. Their Kings gave the future King of “the Jews”, his two new wives, and his men and their families refuge from the King of Israel. 4-horned and 2-horned Philistine altars have been unearthed at Tel Miqne-Ekron and Tel es Safi (Gath).
Jethro’s descendants, including the Rechabites, were not part of the Jewish nation. They had their own covenant and a portion of the land near Jericho for nearly 500 years.
The myths say that Solomon gave 20 cities in Galilee to a Phoenician King. They also record that the Israelites never managed to subdue the members of the other nations living in the land. So David had to purchase the site for a Temple from a Jebusite and murdered a Hittite in order to facilitate an adulterous relationship.
The Torah cannot be changed. It has not been changed. The Torah references this land and Jerusalem hundreds of times (zero in the Koran).
LOL! Anyone can use an online Concordance of the Hebrew Bible to verify that the so-called books of Moses, aka the Torah, don’t contain a single reference to the term “Jerusalem”. In fact, the first mention of any Temple in the scriptures is the one at Shiloh where the Prophet Samuel was supposedly raised in the presence of Eli the priest.
“Are you really gonna slaughter or deport people from Jerusalem today in order to prop-up and perpetuate a pack of ancient falsehoods?”
Can you think of a better reason for slaughtering and deporting people from Jerusalem?
Go back to the oldest documents still in existence that reference the area directly.
Those are the Sumerian, Canaanite, and Egyptian inscriptions which don’t mention Moses, Joshua, or the Judges at all.
There is a very late reference, around 840 BCE, to Omri king of Israel on the Mesha stele; the inscription on the Tel Dan stele, of the same era, to a King of Israel and the House of David, and one or two other ambiguous inscriptions that wishful thinkers imagine constitute a reference to the House of David. There is no evidence that Solomon ever existed or that he had a vast empire according to the oldest contemporary inscriptions that are still in existence.
giladg:
Have you even tried to think how they become “70% of Jordanians who are Palestinians?”. No you haven’t. Its really simple. Because something happened in 1947-1948. What that might be gilad ? Try to think that for a bit longer.
I even give you a little hint, which is pointless but i do it anyway.
link to unrwa.org
Jerusalem Syndrome? never heard of that til now. maybe that explains something, but i don’t know what.
Yes it’s a psychosis that modern Israeli Psychologists have described in their literature. There is a similar syndrome that afflicts Israelis when they visit Hebron in Palestine. They can develop false beliefs, loose contact with reality, suffer from hallucinations, and become violently delusional. One notable case was documented by the Shamgar Commission and many more are the subject of videos that are available on YouTube.
“Derceti, quam versa squamis velantibus artus
stagna Palaestini credunt motasse figura,”
Ovid.
But these are mere facts, AlGhorear. What effect will they have on the Zionists?
have the deed to the city which is the Torah . . . the deed? the one from god i presume?
God never mentioned Jerusalem in the Torah. The author(s) employed a prophetic device to indicate that God hadn’t chosen a sacred spot just yet. There were a number of competing Temple franchises in subsequent eras. After the supposed schism with the Israelites (Samaritans), the Jews created some myths that masqueraded as historical chronicles. They were manipulated to award their cult an exclusive lock-in on the spoils from religious pilgrims and cut competing priests and cult sites out of the loop.
giladg,
2000 years ago the people in Palestine spoke Aramaic not Hebrew.
“have the deed to the city which is the Torah”..gilad
You are an idiot.
Giladg has amply proven he’s a racist and has repeatedly denied the Nakba, for some reason this isnt enough to ban him and his abject nonsense, however as he has now demonstrated that he is also a whacked out religious fundie loon (who no doubt offers up his daughters to mass rape, stones his neighbours if they work on Gods day given his fondness for the fairy stories of people who thought the earth was flat) can we just start ignoring him?
Yes, the one from G-d. Prove that it is not.
All that your myth claims is that Abraham purchased a cave in a field near Hebron and that David purchased a single threshing floor from a Jebusite. Those modest and rather ill-defined real estate holdings were never recorded any where else and their importance was subsequently exaggerated well “beyond belief”.
The Hasmoneans and Herod reportedly expanded the cult site by 36 acres. There is no mention of any Divine sanction from God regarding the annexation. In any event, the site of their Temple is unknown. There are great disparities between the literary sources and the archeological evidence. The so-called Wailing Wall isn’t even shown on the earliest maps of the holy places made in the current era: See for example The Madaba Mosaic Map web site. Even if you study the problem in a Yeshiva till the cows come home, its dimensions don’t match the ones recorded in the Mishnah. So the evidence for the exact location of the property that you’ve mentioned is practically non-existent.
On the other hand, an international commission was appointed by the Council of the League of Nations to settle the dispute regarding the title. It determined that the Wailing Wall and pavement in front of it were constituted a Muslim Waqf by Afdal, the son of Saladin, in about the year 1193 A.D. and were under the “sole proprietorship” of the Supreme Muslim Council of Palestine. A similar determination was made regarding the Ibrahimi Mosque in Hebron.
In any event, the right of distant generations to reclaim properties that have changed hands or been placed under the proprietorship of others, Irredentism, is controversial and seldom given legal recognition by other states.
When you think of Palestinians, do you think of the plus 70% of Jordanians who are Palestinians?
“To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion.”;-)
Prior to WWI there were no boundaries that prevented Arabs from living in Arabia or Arabistan – the land of the Arabs as the Ottoman’s called it. The geographical end points of the Arab homeland (bilad al-Arab) stretched from the Nile to bilad al Sham (Syria), bilad al-Yaman (the Land of the South), and Bilad al-Iraq (the Land of the River Banks). So the very real Arabia or Arabistan actually had the same boundaries as mythical Eretz Israel. See for example the account written by William Perry Fogg about travels in Palestine in “Travels and adventures in Arabistan” link to books.google.com
The Allied Powers laid down the boundaries of two new states inside the “Palestine Mandate” – Transjordan and another, recursively monikered state of “Palestine”. “Jordan” was a new entity that came into existence in 1949 comprised of Transjordaians and Palestinians living in the region of Transjordan and Palestine. The population included an enormous refugee population in Transjordan that had been displaced from the portions of former Palestine claimed by Israel. The monarch, Abdullah, had been declared the King of Transjordan and Arab Palestine. That’s the way things remained for the next 39 years.
I’ll let you produce the evidence which proves that the Hashemite Kings renounced all of their claims to Palestine. They certainly have never reverted the name of their Kingdom to “Transjordan” and they reserved their position on the final boundaries with respect to all of the Arab territories that came under Israeli military control in 1967. Just read Article 3(2) of your own peace treaty with them: link to kinghussein.gov.jo
Wrong! The 70% have nothing to do with the leaving of homes in what is called Israel today. In Jordan there are refugee camps. Those in the camps are. They are a fraction of the total Palestinians in Jordan. Ignorance reigns again.
Jews believe Jesus existed. He was a learned, wise man and Rabbi. No need to doubt his existence.
@American
Thompson has a distinct agenda. Wise men need to be wary of those who push their agendas and should cast doubt on the connection between that agenda and different information and/or interpretations that may clash with that agenda.
@American, here are a couple of scenarios that could happen.
1) After a sand storm in the Sinai Desert, remnents of the Hebrews on their return to the Promissed Land from Egypt are discovered.
2) After an earthquake, artifacts from the First and Second Temples are discovered on the Temple Mount that add clear cut light to Biblical stories. It is even possible that the tablets with the Ten Commandments may be found.
However much you dismiss these as fantasy, you can only be proven wrong.
the Jews created some myths that masqueraded as historical chronicles. They were manipulated to award their cult an exclusive lock-in on the spoils from religious pilgrims and cut competing priests and cult sites out of the loop.
sounds eerily familiar to what’s happening today.
The Torah is written in Hebrew, let me remind you, or en’Light’en you, if that is the case.
@American, you’ll enjoy this one.
I admit that some of my comments can be construed as being borderline and sometimes possibly questionable. Was it written in the Bible and not the Torah? Was it 3 mentions and not 622? Does this really matter? I have an agenda, of course and it is to cause those who automatically support the Palestinians to consider that there is another party in the region and the story is not only about one side. Jewish history and religious books, The Torah and the Bible were not written during the past few hundred years, but thousands of years ago. Whether you agree with what is written in them or not, the fact is that there is a triangle between them, the Jewish people and the Land of Israel.
The Palestinians and Muslims go all out to discredit this connection and this should not be allowed to happen. This only exacerbates the conflict as it allows them to dream dreams they have no right of having, as their dreams sit in a place that does not include the presence of Jews in this land. The Jewish connection is massively significant. I would hope that more and more will not allow the Palestinians to get away with spitting on this connection, but rather find ways to share with Jews, in recognition of Jewish history.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. What do you think your ilk have been doing? Denying Palestinians exist, claiming they were invented in 1964, that they came to Palestine after the Jews arrived, that there was never a Palestinian state.
You epitomize the self obsession, narcissism, hypocrisy and mind boggling lack of self awareness that has become synonymous with Zionism.
Where do Palestinians fit into your dreams of Eretz Yisrael? The Jewish connection is inky significant to you and evangelical wingnuts who want you to burn un hell.
You have never intended to share and never have. From the outset, the Jewish homeland was an exclusive goal. So what gives you the right to demand that others share with you?
giladg wrote: “When you think of Palestinians, do you think of the plus 70% of Jordanians who are Palestinians? If you don’t then go back and think about my comment for a little longer. You may start to see the point I am trying to make, re borders.”
Yeah only because they too, as in Lebanon, were ethnically cleansed out to Jordan by Zionist terrorist gangs.
Some 2500 years ago, the Greek Herodotus was traveling Persian empire & wrote up what he learned. In the process he invented the idea of writing history. Instead of anecdotal accounts & vignettes he wrote a chronology of how things came to be as he found them. In the process he mentioned the Palestinians 7 times. Not Philistines, but Palestinians. He also failed to mention any Jews. Obviously Jews/Judaeans had not differentiated themselves from their fellow Palestinians in the 5th c. BC.
Specific references to “Palestine” date back nearly five hundred years before “the time of Jesus.” In the 5th Century BC, Herodotus, the first historian in Western civilization, referenced “Palestine” numerous times in chronicle of the ancient world, The Histories, including the following passage describing “Syrians of Palestine”:”…they live in the coastal parts of Syria; and that region of Syria and all that lies between it and Egypt is called Palestine.” (VII.89)
Palestinians, back then, were referenced by the Greeks to include all the different local folks who lived in the region. As Islam only came into this world 1,200 years later, your intention to imply that the Palestinians then were this homogenous group connected to Palestinians of today is ridiculous.
As only the Hebrews had at that time began to develop the Jewish religion and thus establish the glue to form a common bond, those not belonging to one of the 12 Tribes of Israel did not have a common identity apart from local loyalties.
>> Jewish history and religious books … [were written] thousands of years ago. Whether you agree with what is written in them or not, the fact is that there is a triangle between them, the Jewish people and the Land of Israel.
Neither a triangle nor any other shape represents a justification for terrorism, ethnic cleansing and the establishment of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state.
The Torah is written in Hebrew, let me remind you, or en’Light’en you, if that is the case.
Like everything else written in one of the dead languages, the Hebrew Bible should be taught like a foreign language in Israel too. See Ghil‘ad Zuckermann, “Do Israelis Understand the Hebrew Bible?”, The Bible and Critical Theory, Vol 6, No 1 (2010),
*abstract: link to bibleandcriticaltheory.org
*pdf link to bibleandcriticaltheory.org
@Annie, did you catch the speech by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt about making Jerusalem the capital of the Muslim Caliphate? What do you think they have planned for the Jews?
The Palestinian story is simply a leg-up for the larger Islamic plans.
Report from RT Russia
And then the speech in their own words
Those who think the Palestinian story is the “struggle of our time” are badly mistaken. Subterfuge is the name of the game the Palestinians are playing, and the useful idiots rush to their aid.
Anyone truly interested in stability and keeping Jerusalem open to all faiths, should fight for Israel.
“Nice effort American, but you forget one major fact. None of the people you mentioned, besides the Jews, have the deed to the city which is the Torah.”
I think I’m out of here for a while. When this type of religious lunacy — unhistorical, fairy-tale gibberish, no better, really, than Holocaust denial — is permitted to be posted, I will find better things to do.
That’s hilarious given that Europeanslike yourself, who converted to Judaism and had no connection to the territory whatsoever, and clsimiming that you have some mythical bond to the land you had never set foot in.
The 12tribes were a myth too BTW.
By clsimiming Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel, you are doing the opposite. Fighting for Israel is like fighting for apartheid South Africa – it requires the individual to undergo a morality bypass.
Yes. The Torah is written in Hebrew and Roman Catholic Mass was in Latin until fairly recently. The people in Palestine did not speak Hebrew 2000 years ago anymore than Roman Catholics spoke Latin. Tell me then why is the Talmud written in Aramaic?
“As only the Hebrews had at that time began to develop the Jewish religion and thus establish the glue to form a common bond, those not belonging to one of the 12 Tribes of Israel did not have a common identity apart from local loyalties.”
So what?
@ eljay
Not even a hypercube?
>> Not even a hypercube?
Funny you should say that. I was originally going to say “not even a tesseract”, but then changed my post. I like the way you think. :-)
Alas, not even a hypercube will suffice.
“As only the Hebrews had at that time began to develop the Jewish religion and thus establish the glue to form a common bond, those not belonging to one of the 12 Tribes of Israel did not have a common identity apart from local loyalties.”
Remember that the Torah can’t be changed. Deuteronomy 7:6 unambiguously said that the Hittites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivvites, and the Jebusites were seven nations that were living in the land and that they were more numerous and powerful than you.
There were positive and negative commandments that required their utter destruction, i.e. Thou shalt utterly destroy them. and Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth.. Jewish commentators have always employed a great deal of sophistry and unpersuasive mental gymnastics to explain why God didn’t drive these nations out of the land or why Israel didn’t obey the commandments and annihilate these very resilient nations from the Land. Contrary to what you’ve claimed, the scriptures indicate that the Israelis found the glue of their common religions and cultures very attractive and that they worshiped with and married these gentiles.
Your own myths testify that Israel was unable to get rid of these seven nations. For example Joshua 15:63 says:
The first Temple myth of 1st Kings Chapter 9:20-21 indicates that Israel had not been able to annihilate several of the other nations as well, and that it’s relationship to them was similar to that of a modern occupying regime:
So you might want to drop these logically inconsistent arguments about the other nations living in the Land. We all know that it was the Jews who were scattered in communities around the known world during the 2nd Commonwealth who lacked a common language, culture, or Temple cult to serve as the glue to form a common bond of national identity.
If you are going to quote the Torah, then quote the part about the land being given to what is now the Jewish people.
Have you been to Jerusalem Shingo? The city has never been as open and as free to all religions as it is now.
Jews back then believed that only when the Messiah returned and the Third Jewish Temple would be build, should Jews once again speak Hebrew. They did this in awe of G-d. Many still believe this to this day but the reality of a secular Israel is something that cannot be avoided. Many in Israel speak Yiddish at home, as their first language and for the same reason.
If you are going to quote the Torah, then quote the part about the land being given to what is now the Jewish people.
The Torah does not make any categorical statements about “the land being given to what is now the Jewish people.” That’s a deductive argument – based upon an inferred intermediate conclusion – that cannot be safely assumed.
If you are suggesting that the Palestinians are not included among the inheritors, that would also be an example of the fallacy of drawing a negative conclusion from a positive premise.
“If you are going to quote the Torah, then quote the part about the land being given to what is now the Jewish people.”
Sure and then why not then base modern geo-politics on the “Wizard of Oz” or other fairy tales.
“I have an agenda, of course and it is to cause those who automatically support the Palestinians to consider that there is another party in the region and the story is not only about one side.
Jewish history and religious books, The Torah and the Bible were not written during the past few hundred years, but thousands of years ago. Whether you agree with what is written in them or not, the fact is that there is a triangle between them, the Jewish people and the Land of Israel.”"…gilad
Yea …..and there is a ‘triangle of connection’ between me and the cave etchings of homo sapiens and the continents they inhabited also…..lol
There is no “massive” significance to anything Jewish in the area more so than any others, the Jews were only one among many.
@giladg: Herodotus wrote of Palestine in The Histories circa 500BC. This is not conjecture. Unlike modern day Israelis, the Palestinians ARE indigenous to the region.
To quote the renowned historian/anthropologist and “Holy Land” specialist, Ilene Beatty: “When we speak of ‘Palestinians’ or of the ‘Arab population [of Palestine]‘, we must bear in mind their Canaanite origin. This is important because their legal right to the country stems…from the fact that the Canaanites were first, which gives them priority; their descendants have continued to live there, which gives them continuity”.
giladg wrote: “Have you been to Jerusalem Shingo? The city has never been as open and as free to all religions as it is now.”
Nothing could be further from the truth.
“Because of travel restrictions in past years, the vast majority of Christians living in the West Bank have been stopped at checkpoints and prevented from attending one of the most important religious services of the year. Israeli authorities require permits for entering Jerusalem. Local Christians estimate that only 2,000 — 3,000 permits are provided, despite the overwhelming desire among the 50,000 Palestinian Christians to travel from the West Bank and Gaza for the Easter week celebrations in Jerusalem.
Those who make it across checkpoints and into Israel are still barricaded by numerous walls and other security obstructions. As a result, even many who have permits are unable to make it to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. In 2010, a Palestinian colleague of mine at World Vision, who had warm memories as a child of the Holy Fire service, was able to return to the Holy Sepulchre. She described the scene for those able to gain entrance to the church: “The crowd, striving to stay joyful, could still feel the change of what Easter had now become and the dark cloud of checkpoints, police forces, and denial of entry that had obscured the joy of this holiday.”
Let’s not forget the 7 million Palestinian refugees in exile “persona non grata” to the Zionist regime who are not even allowed to visit their country.
Pre zionist occupation holy sites were open for all.
If you have a dog that won’t release, you can do two things:
1: Choke it. Twist the collar or use the lead as a tourniquet. The dog will release it’s grip before it passes out. Animals have a reflex to breathe and no matter how it wants to keep whatever it has in it’s mouth, instinct will take over and it will do what it can to free it’s airway. I broke up a fight between two pitbulls by doing this, so take it from first hand experience. Takes 1-2 minutes.
2: Stick your finger up it’s arse. Apparently, this works, but you’ve got to be prepared for the fallout. The dog will be very pi$$ed. I can’t say I’ve tried this one personally but it’s pretty instant. Although you’ll be have another situation the next instant.
The thing that’s bullshit gilad is that it took the dog’s handler 12 minutes. are you aware of a dogs bite force? 260lbs. Are you also aware that exsanguination can occur in minutes?
It will only be time before someone does die, especially if dogs are sent out with inexperienced handlers like the inept idiot in this case.
>> Yet Allison is still prepared to call the Palestinian demonstrations as “non-violent” when they continually throw stones and rocks. Do you know what the word hypocrite means Allison?
giladgeee’s indignation is amusing. He’s upset at Palestinians throwing rocks and stones, even as he defends Israel’s 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.
giladgeee is a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist who, even as he embodies it, doesn’t know the meaning of the phrase “completely clueless”.
If you watch CNN and the BBC, if you read the NY Times, The Guardian, Independent and such rags, then you will never know there is another side. If you go to university, chances are that Left wing professors will have their way with you.
One side encourages its supporters to expose themselves to all sides of the story. The other remains within its own narrative, declaring the other side as right wing nuts. And please do not tell us that Fox News represents the conservative right and has massive influence. Fox is better than the rest but Bill O’Reilly, the star of Fox, has max. 3 million viewers watching him which is a drop in the ocean. And its Fox against the rest. Talk about imbalance. In my mind, the side that is not afraid to delve into the other sides narrative, is the side where the truth shines brighter.
LOL.
Read some international law, and tell us again in which side truth sides brighter. Have you heard such a thing as a international law ?
There’s nothing lower than using dogs to do man’s dirtywork. Dogs (or other animals) should be used exclusively in life-saving or life-affirming work, not as attack animals.
And don’t believe for a second the nonsense that attack dogs can be “retired” and socialised as companions. Oh, they get retired, all right, permanently, when they are done with them.
And don’t believe for a second the nonsense that attack dogs can be “retired””"…Mooser
Actually they can “if” they were trained as most police dogs are to only follow ‘commands’. A police dog is trained to do two things, protect it’s handler and follow his commands.
Dogs also are territorial but a trained police dog isn ‘t necessarily more so than an average dog.
Or so says my friendly local dog trainer.
I’ve had German Shepard’s all my life since a childhood but never found it necessary to take one to a trainer, they are naturally intelligent and protective without being vicious.
If a dog has been deliberately made to be vicious that’s a different story.
I volunteer with a Animal Rescue Group here and couple of times we have taken in Pit bulls that were used in fighting…makes you sick what is done to these dogs…but the local dog trainer guy works with them..takes a professonal at that to handle them,wouldn’t have the average person try it…and we’ve had some success at placing them after they were normalized, but they usually can only go to homes without other dogs.
He was then pepper-sprayed and arrested as well.
If the Israeli soldiers had pepper-sprayed the dog instead of the member of the village’s popular committee, it would probably have opened its mouth and released Ahmad Shtawi’s arm. But the soldiers prioritized the animal’s welfare over that of the human beings in the village.
A frequent Zionist complaint is that Palestinians chant “the Jews are our dogs.” The reality in the field, however, is that in the eyes of Israelis Palestinians are worse than dogs.
if israel could, it would unleash ants at Palestinians. Wait. maybe it did!
RE: “The military use of dogs against Palestinians is commonplace. Since April 2011, B’tselem has reported eight cases where dogs caused injuries.” ~ Allison Deger
MY COMMENT: And they aren’t just any dogs. They always seem to be German Shepherds, and for me that inevitably conjures up very disturbing images from the past!
• Police dogs attack demonstrators in Birmingham, 1963 – link to nytimes.com
SEE: “Nazi Myth Transformed German Shepherds from Sheep Dogs into Tame Wolves”, by John Ensminger, Dog Law Reporter, 6/29/10:
SOURCE – link to doglawreporter.blogspot.com
P.S. WIKIPEDIA PHOTO: Eva Braun and Adolf Hitler, with Hitler holding Blondi, his female German Shepherd dog, on a leash. – link to en.wikipedia.org
P.P.S. RE: “…for me that inevitably conjures up very disturbing images from the past!” ~ me, above
ALSO SEE: “Anti-African Hysteria Sweeps Israel”, by Uri Avnery, Counterpunch, 6/15/12
ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to counterpunch.org
I’m reminded of that German television movie about the Wannsee Conference, where Dr. Lange, the commander of an SS extermination squad in Russia, has come to the conference with his German shepherd, Hasso. Towards the end of the movie, Lange says in praise of his dog that it is able to sniff out everyone who tries to hide from his unit.
Hitler’s own nom de guerre in his illegal resistance movement was “Wolf”. Winifred Wagner’s children all called him affectionately”Onkel Wolf”.
Even just in pictures, in the past, I recall of having unjustly somewhat blamed the dogs. Obviously I was wrong. The fact is, of course, that they used and use dogs because they seem to be among the few creatures able to carry out eagerly and inconditionally any disgusting order coming from a human, even on behalf of a hideous regime. Few creatures, I said. Well, apart from some fanatics, both of the past and the present, and a bunch of enthusiastically submissive politicians.
You can’t blame the dog or his breed for what someone used him for.
Time to bring out the defense pigs… They’re smart, neat, clean and can bite too.
Pig ID:
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Actiodactyla
Family: Suidae
Genus: Sus
Species: S.Domesticus (Domestic Pig)
Oink, oink!
What have you got against pigs? As Groucho Marx once remarked: “The pig is the cleanest animal there is, except for my father, of course”
Do they have truffles in the Territories? I read that in Spain truffles are found in olive groves, so why not? Bring in the pigs!