Latest demographic threat: 43 million Arabs on Facebook

Israel/PalestineUS Politics
on 83 Comments

In the Jerusalem Post, Ruth Eglash concedes that Israel is “losing the fight” in public relations and that traditional hasbara no longer works. One reason is the demographic threat of the internet. This is very similar to what former State Department director of policy Anne-Marie Slaughter said at J Street, Everyone on twitter just asks me about the Palestinians. Eglash:

However, what continues to be starkly apparent to me as I interact widely on social networking sites is that traditional hasbara, or the set of arguments used in the past to defend Israel’s right to exist or explain its right to act or react, is becoming less and less effective or believable.

One of the possible reasons for this could be put down to sheer online demographics. A recent study in Israel, which was funded by Google Israel and carried out by the School of Media Studies at the College of Management Academic Studies (COMAS) in Rishon Lezion, showed that while in a general sense Israelis are highly connected digitally, their online activity seems confined to mere socializing. The study showed that the majority of Israelis using social media were in their teens or pre-teens and most preferred their activities to be in Hebrew – not very useful for making Israel’s case to the world.

Additionally, statistics show that Israel is only 44th on the list of global Facebook users, with some 3,486,520 using the social networking site and only roughly 5 percent of the country appearing on Twitter, a platform used more for social action.

In contrast, an Arab Technical News Gateway report from last month shows that the overall number of Arab users on Facebook worldwide has already surpassed 43 million, and on Twitter, it’s more than 1.3 million.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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83 Responses

  1. Sumud
    June 23, 2012, 10:26 am

    Wrong Eglash – the truth is right in front of your eyes, but you’re making up excuses.

    It’s not the number of arabs using social media, it’s that fact that hasbara is one lie after another.

    • Hostage
      June 23, 2012, 12:28 pm

      Wrong Eglash – the truth is right in front of your eyes . . .

      Yes indeed. Everyone, except Eglash, is operating under the assumption that there’s some sort of organized IDF competition to see which soldier can post the most shameful or humiliating example of Palestinian prisoner abuse on their personal Facebook pages.

    • Rusty Pipes
      June 25, 2012, 9:29 pm

      There are fewer and fewer people willing to accept the “Everything I Need to Know about Israel I Learned in Kindergarten” framing. But some zionists still believe it’s just a matter of “better PR.”

  2. bob
    June 23, 2012, 11:05 am

    In the Jerusalem Post, Ruth Eglash concedes that Israel is “losing the fight” in public relations and that traditional hasbara no longer works. One reason is the demographic threat of the internet.

    The problem with propaganda and narrative control is when the other narratives happen to get out – and the internet is that vehicle. It is easy to maintain hasbara as an effective tool if narratives are managed. For instance, in television programs, you can bring in Palestinians like Walid Shoebat to provide the illusion of context. Have the program stocked with AEI and WINEP members for “two perspectives.”

    The problem is that people like Phil, Judt, Blankfort, Rosenberg, Horowitz, and Greenwald etc. have cracked many ethnic portions of Hasbara (think antisemitism as a means of silencing), and Gentiles like Cole, M & W and others have punched through in other ways. The role in the internet in the transmission of these viewpoints is hard to overstate.

    With these narratives gaining a wider audience, Hasbara and its method of propaganda through narrative control falls flat. Hasbara has always relied on narrative control as a significant portion of its means to be effective. Simply exposing context breaks this method of propaganda and reveals it to be a narrow and dogmatic point of view.

  3. Taxi
    June 23, 2012, 12:17 pm

    What the heck are the zionists gonna do, annex the internet?!

    I still maintain that the biggest foe of Apartheid israel is not Iranian nukes, but the internet.

    • American
      June 23, 2012, 12:48 pm

      I think so too Taxi.
      Without it how many people would be even be aware Israel was ‘occupying’ Palestine instead of ‘defending’ themselves from terriers as the msm and press presents it.
      Where else but the net can one go anywhere without leaving home, inside the British National Archives, inside the Library of Congress, access declassified material, find information you would never have the time to gain access to in pre net days.

    • Annie Robbins
      June 23, 2012, 1:06 pm

      israels biggest foe is truth and exposure. the internet exposes them like no other tool.

      • Abu Malia
        June 24, 2012, 11:41 am

        “israels biggest foe is truth and exposure. the internet exposes them like no other tool.”

        No one exposes them like Mondoweiss. Here, both regular commenters and Staff are subject- matter experts.
        I have to admit my beef with Zionism started before Al Gore invented the internet. When i was 12, i ran into my father’s passport which had the following statement in four different languages – two of which i could read and understand.
        ” This passport is valid for entry into every country except South Africa and Israel”

        One down one to go!

    • Sumud
      June 23, 2012, 11:23 pm

      What the heck are the zionists gonna do, annex the internet?!

      To answer that in a serious way, I think there will definitely be false flag attacks in Palestine designed to spark a violent third intifadah – because violence is the only thing Israel really understands, and the ziobots know how to spin it. I’m not sure how effective this will be though, the pull to non-violence is very strong and Egyptians are setting a great example of exactly what people-power is capable of – have you seen they’re back in Tahrir Square by the hundreds of thousands?

      Anyway I think something else Israel will do is eventually close down the West Bank, not as tight as Gaza, but they will try to demoralise Palestinians as best as possibly by keeping internationals out. Maybe also cutting off or limiting their internet at a critical moment…

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 10:19 am

        “To answer that in a serious way, I think there will definitely be false flag attacks in Palestine designed to spark a violent third intifadah”

        Translation: I’m blaming the victims of the intifada in advance.

      • Sumud
        June 25, 2012, 11:27 am

        Don’t give up your day job hophmi – your translation skills are not so good.

        Note pls I said “I think Israel will…” in response to a question about what zionists will do next, not “Israel will…”

        Israel has used false flag attacks in the past. Israel consistently responds to non-violence with violence – even admitting it (my emphasis):

        In a new wikileaks cable, Director of Policy and Political-Military Affairs at the Israel Ministry of Defense, Maj. General (reserves) Amos Gilad, told American government officials, ‘we don’t do Gandhi very well’ in reference to unarmed demonstrations taking place throughout the West Bank and specifically in Nabi Saleh. The cable confirms that the Israeli army has, in recent months, decided to increase violent pressure on the demonstrations ‘even [if the] demonstrations appear peaceful.’

        I stand by what I wrote, and of course we will examine the evidence as we go.

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 11:51 am

        “Don’t give up your day job hophmi – your translation skills are not so good. ”

        LOL. You don’t translate so well either, and your out-of-context citation from your fellow traveller, Joseph Dana, does not prove your point.

      • Hostage
        June 25, 2012, 1:53 pm

        Translation: I’m blaming the victims of the intifada in advance. . . . your out-of-context citation from your fellow traveller, Joseph Dana, does not prove your point.

        Your suggestion that Israel would not be to blame is rubbish. The International Court of Justice said that the obligations erga omnes violated by Israel are the obligation to respect the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, and certain of its obligations under international humanitarian law.

        The Court advised that the latter included violations so fundamental to the respect of the human person and elementary considerations of humanity, that they are to be observed by all States whether or not they have ratified the conventions that contain them, because they constitute intransgressible principles of international customary law (paragraphs 155-157). http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf

        “Victims” don’t intentionally violate elementary considerations of humanity or intransgressible principles of international customary law. The Court said that Israel cannot rely on a right of self-defense or on a state of necessity in order to preclude the wrongfulness of its actions, because Israel’s violations of intrnational law have contributed to the state of necessity (paragraphs 140-142).

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 3:26 pm

        “Your suggestion that Israel would not be to blame is rubbish.”

        That’s not my suggestion or the context of the discussion. The claim was that Israel would purposely try to start an Intifada through false-flag operations.

        You can quote the ICJ decision all you want (we all know you can read AND use the internet, bravo).

        Nothing in the decision gives the Palestinians a right to resist by killing Israeli civilians. Nor does it give the Palestinians the freedom to kill Israeli soldiers while remaining free from the consequences of the choice to use violence.

        Neither does the ICJ decision preclude a state from defending itself against the use of violence toward it, its soldiers, and especially its civilians.

      • Sumud
        June 25, 2012, 4:04 pm

        You don’t translate so well either, and your out-of-context citation from your fellow traveller, Joseph Dana, does not prove your point.

        I don’t believe I was translating at all, was i hophmi?

        Just offering an opinion, which can only be disproved or disproved by future events. Let us wait and see.

      • Hostage
        June 25, 2012, 6:48 pm

        (we all know you can read AND use the internet, bravo). Nothing in the decision gives the Palestinians a right to resist by killing Israeli civilians.

        We all knew that you would attempt to reframe and divert the discussion. FYI, the term “Intifada” is not defined as “killing Israeli civilians”. It simply means to shake off colonial and alien domination. The Court decision did say that the Wall, the settlements, and the associated Israeli administrative regime in the Occupied Palestinian territory were all illegal.

        The settlers have been implanted in the area of an armed conflict and actively participate in the hostilities there using IDF-supplied arms. They’re a valid military objective, just like any other paramilitary force. Conversely, Israeli civilians living on their own side of the Green Line in the territory of the State of Israel are not a valid military objective. The IDF is not safe from attack anywhere, so long as it still engages in armed conflict on either side of the Green Line.

        The 2004 ICJ decision also cited resolution 2625 (XXV), “Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States” (paragraph 87) and noted that its Judgment in the case concerning Military and Paramilitary Activities in and against Nicaragua stated that it reflects customary international law. That resolution stipulates that “Every State has the duty to refrain from any forcible action which deprives peoples of their right to self-determination and freedom and independence.” It also allows the affected peoples to take action against, and offer resistance to, such forcible action in pursuit of the exercise of their right to self-determination. In addition, it entitles them to seek and to receive support from others. — http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/RES/2625%28XXV%29

        In that connection the Court ruled that Israel was violating an erga omnes obligation with respect to the Palestinian right of self-determination. The General Assembly has repeatedly defined the customary law governing that particular right as “jus cogens”, i.e. “compelling law”. For example, in resolution 2649 (1970), the UN General Assembly affirmed

        “the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination recognized as being entitled to the right of self-determination to restore to themselves that right by any means at their disposal. . . . Condemns those Governments that deny the right of self-determination of peoples recognized as being entitled to it, especially of the peoples of southern Africa and Palestine”

        http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/RES/2649%28XXV%29

        In the subsequent 2005 targeted killings case, the Israeli Supreme Court accepted the government’s position that “a continuous state of armed conflict has existed between Israel and the Palestinian militias operating in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza since the first intifada.” The High Court said that the entire area is part and parcel of an armed conflict. See the subsection of the ruling under the heading “The General Normative Framework, A. International Armed Conflict”

        So the government of Israel is consciously violating a jus cogens norm by using force and an illegal regime to subject the Palestinians to colonial and alien domination. The Palestinians can use any means at their disposal to put a stop to that situation in accordance with customary international law.

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 7:03 pm

        “FYI, the term “Intifada” is not defined as “killing Israeli civilians”. It simply means to shake off colonial and alien domination. The Court decision did say that the Wall, the settlements, and the associated Israeli administrative regime in the Occupied Palestinian territory were all illegal. ”

        No one defined it that way.

        “They’re a valid military objective, just like any other paramilitary force. ”

        I think that’s a highly dubious notion. There is no valid military objective to slice a baby’s throat open or to shoot at people on the road.

        “It also allows the affected peoples to take action against, and offer resistance to, such forcible action in pursuit of the exercise of their right to self-determination.”

        That does not include killing civilians and non-combatants.

        “The Palestinians can use any means at their disposal to put a stop to that situation in accordance with customary international law.”

        In accordance with customary international law.

      • Cliff
        June 25, 2012, 9:22 pm

        The victims of this conflict are the Palestinians you narcissistic nitwit. That is and has always been the power dynamic. It will continue to be this way unless something changes radically (which it won’t) militarily.

        Israel regularly kills more Palestinian civilians than the other way around. In fact, Israel has killed more Palestinian children since the 2nd Intifada than Palestinian militants have killed Israeli civilians in general in the same time frame.

        Similarly, when your other liars-in-arms, Fredblogs, push intellectually dishonest Zionist verbiage on Israel-Palestine blogs across the Net, you use the rhetoric of the quantity of rockets fired upon S’Derot.

        As if Israel hasn’t – in a shorter time period and during a relevant time frame – fired more artillery into Gaza (see the appropriate HRW report often cited here by Shingo) or taken out entire buildings and civilian infrastructure that had nothing to do with disarming Hamas or other Gazan militants. And of course the numerous and ongoing ‘collateral’ damage.

        You and your cultists continually attempt to turn the tables on the conflict to portray the Israelis as victims and the Palestinians as perpetrators in such a stark, one-sided cartoonish narrative. It’s pathetic. You say the same lies, and we come back with the same exact counter-arguments.

        The only difference between us, is your side kills more innocent people, buys off the media/politicians, intimidates academics and students and regular people with charges of antisemitism (which it has ‘weaponized’ through identity politics), etc.

        This is precisely because the singular difference between a true progressive FOR Palestine and right-wing, phony ‘StandWithUs’-type ‘liberal’/Zionist such as yourself (i.e., just another likud Zionist in liberal Zionist’s clothing, which is like a werewolf in a wolf’s clothing or vice versa depending on your perspective).

        We are sincere and make decisions based on principles and people like you and Fredblogs judge people through a Zionist lens (see: his [and yours too I think] defense of pedophilia in the Orthodox Jewish community).

        You’re a sick freak hoppy.

        The statistics don’t lie. Keep engaging in your own brand of Holocaust denial though hoppy.

      • Hostage
        June 26, 2012, 3:49 am

        I think that’s a highly dubious notion. There is no valid military objective to slice a baby’s throat open or to shoot at people on the road.

        Hophmi you’re trying to reframe the conversation again. The IDF originally established many Nahal military settlements in the occupied territories. It has always distributed weapons and other equipment to the illegal settlements. From time to time it has threatened to mobilize settlers and they have undertaken unilateral actions and price tag reprisals. See:
        *Israeli Army to Mobilize Settlers Against Attacks http://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/02/world/israeli-army-to-mobilize-settlers-against-attacks.html
        *NBC News Hundreds Of Angry Jewish Settlers Set Up Roadblocks To Protest Recent Death Of Settler & PLO Peace Agreement
        http://www.nbcuniversalarchives.com/nbcuni/clip/5112723818_s41.do

        The settlers are not non-combatants. A long line of UN and Israeli Commissions have reported that the military authorities have routinely closed out reports of serious war crimes committed by settlers without any investigations or charges ever being filed.

        The settlers are a paramilitary force under the laws and customs of war. No one is talking about killing babies except you. I’m talking about targeting any Israelis for such time as they take a “direct” or “active” part in hostilities in the occupied territories. The Settlers routinely attack Palestinian farmers, villages, destroy property and crops, water supplies, & etc. They do not enjoy any legal protection when they are doing those things.

  4. Annie Robbins
    June 23, 2012, 12:29 pm

    the trajectory of israel’s image has consistently plummeted proportionately with the rise of the internet over the last decade and the only thing that will change that is a change in policy.

    it’s not primarily demographics. truth is colorblind. it is because truth rises and bullshit sinks.

    traditional hasbara no longer works

    we’ve been saying for a long long time change the policy not the delivery. israel puts all their energy into better lipstick and expanding the shades available. what they fail to realize is no amount of lipstick will change the pig. the occupation is a pig and people know it’s a pig. get rid of the pig.

    i really don’t get why they do not understand this is not a framing issue. it’s the policies!!!!!!!!!!!

    • bob
      June 23, 2012, 12:37 pm

      i really don’t get why they do not understand this is not a framing issue. it’s the policies!!!!!!!!!!!

      Annie. In good measure, it is a framing issue where narratives are controlled. For example, take the common Hasbara theme of X attacks, and Israel responds. When framed you see only a missile or missiles go off, then and only then does Israel “respond.” Of course, when you look at a slightly deeper context, this trope can fall apart.

      The internet has brought multivocality to the discussion, and this is ultimately a coffin nail for Hasbara.

      • W.Jones
        June 24, 2012, 12:12 am

        Excellent point Bob.

        You see, the typical thing going through someone’s head might be that in the Gaza bombing, Israel responded too hard to Pal. militants’ attacks. But now due to the internet, people see discussions suggesting that the Gaza militants were rarely violating the ceasefire before the Gaza attacks.

        A closed-minded person whose mind has basically memorized version #1 will think that this is a “framing issue”, of a lack of getting the message out that version #1 is the right one.

        Are you aware that there is a group of people who still think Vietnam was a good idea and that what was needed was even more fighting to win a strategic victory over a sliver of rice paddies?

  5. gracie fr
    June 23, 2012, 1:05 pm

    Indeed, it’s the availability of articles, essays, journalism, reporting think-tank documents and ever increasing Youtube clips and television network footage. An important point one author mentions is annotated in a footnote which leads to an elaboration from another author quoting a different source verifying the same material. Furthermore, since the neoconservative public relations Iraq War disaster, perhaps the public at large are more likely to be mistrustful of what passes for the truth when it comes from the mouths of media icons such as Richard Ross, Shimon Peres, David Aaron Miller or Niall Ferguson. The hasbara talking points, formally issued to American Zionist bloggers several years ago, have bypassed their shelf life end date, but continued to be bandied forth ad nauseam. The no nonsense Facebook generation is more than Arab demographics its everybody…..

    • Annie Robbins
      June 23, 2012, 1:10 pm

      more than Arab demographics its everybody…..

      i agree.

      • ritzl
        June 23, 2012, 6:03 pm

        “The no nonsense Facebook generation is more than Arab demographics its everybody…..

        Headline 20 years from now: Study Shows Mark Zuckerberg As Greatest Single Contributor to Zionism’s Demise

        Headline 30 years from now: Mark Zuckerberg Awarded Palestinian Medal Of Freedom; Former entrepreneur takes time from his acclaimed “Green Energy for Humanity” efforts in Africa to accept in Jerusalem ceremony, saying “Critics have never forgiven me, but I’m rich and they’re not.” Alan Dershowitz was unavailable for comment.

  6. atime forpeace
    June 23, 2012, 3:45 pm

    The sheer chutzpaaaaa

    “traditional hasbara, or the set of arguments used in the past to defend Israel’s right to exist or explain its right to act or react, is becoming less and less effective or believable”

    The israeli bs ( more commonly known as hasbara) can not stand the light of truth.
    The mountain of truth that is crashing down on the msm is so large that they can not keep it from demolishing the narrative that they have pushed for so long.

  7. ColinWright
    June 23, 2012, 3:53 pm

    Well, the solution is obvious.

    On behalf of Israel, the internet must be suppressed.

  8. Les
    June 23, 2012, 4:22 pm

    In the olden days we believed our media when it reported what people (supposedly) said, including Arabs. Now we know their words were carefully edited to fit in with a manufactured image to fulfill the larger purpose of engineering consent by the use of such imagery. Why else have ordinary Americans come to hate and fear Palestinians, Arabs, and Iranians, if not by the intent of our media? Hearing Arabs speak for themselves replaces the cooked up stereotypes with a genuine variety of opinions and ideas, undercutting the former strength of the Israel Lobby. More free speech beats out the old censorship every time.

  9. seafoid
    June 23, 2012, 5:18 pm

    Another problem that Israel has is that the countries it depends on for political support- the rest of the OECD – are up to their necks in debt and will grow little, if at all, over the next 10 years. Companies are desperately looking for growth elsewhere and it makes sense to invest in countries that are behind the curve – most of them are Muslim.
    Apple and Facebook want to sell crap to consumers and they don’t care where they live. That is the logic of capitalism. Capitalism is not programmed to consider Israel as sui generis.

  10. traintosiberia
    June 23, 2012, 6:10 pm

    I remember Hilary Clinton in one of the Israeli-centric club meetings ( ?AIPAC) lamented and warned that in this age of internet news it was becoming difficult and almost impossible to deliver similar set of beliefs,views and manufactured facts one after another. She was forced by the reality to be candid.

  11. eGuard
    June 24, 2012, 6:54 am

    First of all, contrasting “Israel” with “Arabs” (as Eglash does) is pushing the discussion into bigotry, and racism (“Arabs” are anti-Israel by definition, Ruth?).

    Interestingly, this is an old school hasbara framing in itself. And can easily be seen through thanks to … internet. So her post is self-illustrating her point, albeit an own goal.

    • justicewillprevail
      June 24, 2012, 9:41 am

      Yes, that’s what caught my eye – the framing of Arabs as ‘the enemy’, just can’t keep that racism down. Correction to Eglash: the opposition to your disgusting and degrading policies isn’t confined to your ethnic compartmentalisation, it extends to every human being who becomes informed of the truth of the price Israel has extracted from the native peoples of the region for its crushing existence, and its refusal to live, work and share with those people. So scrub that handy 43 million figure, which is a hasbara attempt at scaring Jews, and make it billions of people of all stripes who care about humanitarian issues. And they don’t care a hoot about whatever religious persuasion you are, they judge you on your actions and segregationist policies.

    • Blake
      June 24, 2012, 10:55 am

      Exactly, I am not an Arab and neither are there many, if any, of the commentators on here. Holey hasbara

  12. NickJOCW
    June 24, 2012, 9:42 am

    It was only sometime in the early afternoon…that the case for the Jewish state’s right to exist was even mentioned.

    That’s like conflating Penn State University’s right to exist with Sandusky’s predilections. I have long entertained a theory that dumb women are dumber than dumb men. Oh my gawd, that makes me a male chauvinist, and if Ruth Eglash is Jewish anti-Semitic as well. It’s enough to make me wish I were an ostrich.

  13. hophmi
    June 25, 2012, 12:06 am

    As I have long said, there are a lot more Arabs than Jews in this world. There is no question that, if given the opportunity, they would work to turn Israel into the 23rd Arab state if they could. International anti-Israel activism is little more than a manifestation of the idea that hundreds of millions can force their will on a few million people. So far, thank G-d, it hasn’t been the case.

    • Taxi
      June 25, 2012, 9:03 am

      You do realize that israel, now full of extremist european colonialists, is in the very heart of Arab countries, don’t you? You do realize that it belongs to Arab jews, Arab moslems and Arab christians, don’t you? You do realize that even if israel was “peaceful” it would eventually become assimilated back into Arabdom, don’t you?

      Aaah, but alas, you european colonialists, forever victimized by your occupied subjects, would rather the minority dictate to the majority till death do you part, uhuh.

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 10:10 am

        “You do realize that israel, now full of extremist european colonialists, is in the very heart of Arab countries, don’t you? ”

        You do realize many Israelis are not European, don’t you?
        You do realize that there are Jews, Muslims, and Christians living there, don’t you?
        You do realize that there is greater respect for minorities now than there ever was in the past, don’t you?
        You do realize that Israel is by far the most successful society (economic, social, technological) in the region, don’t you?
        You do realize that in many ways, Israel is already assimilated into the region, without adopting the dictatorship, disrespect for women, gays, minorities, technology, knowledge, and human rights that plague Arab societies, don’t you?
        You do realize that mostly, Arab societies will, if they smart, emulate Israel rather than other way around, don’t you?

      • Woody Tanaka
        June 25, 2012, 10:34 am

        “You do realize that there is greater respect for minorities now than there ever was in the past, don’t you?”

        Exactly. And that’s why here in America, there is a vast call for the treatment of the non-Christian religious minority the way the Israelis treat the Palestians — we’re going to give a small percentage of the non-Christians in the US the vote, but discriminate against them at every turn, and the rest we will hold in a state of near peonage, voteless and without human rights, housing them in ghettos after stealing their land and their property and ethnically cleansing them into a poor enclave.

      • Taxi
        June 25, 2012, 11:21 am

        My dearest colonialist hasbarado hophmi,
        Apart from liking regional humus and the wiggles of Arabic belly dancers, how EXACTLY have you colonialists “assimilated” into the region. By occupation and the slaughter of the natives?!

        The rest of your “do you realize-s” is a buncha stereotyping hoowee than in fact Apartheid israel is guilty of.

        Apartheid israel is damned to rot for sure – not a light onto all nations who should be “emulated”. Can a female ride on a public bus in Jerusalem? A BIG FAT NO! Roads and housing for jews only? A BIG FAT YES! Ashkanazim, who are european jews, a minority in Apartheid israel? The BIGGEST FATTEST LIE of all! Oh and only last week one of your female politicians declared that “abortion turns women into lesbians”.
        http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/mk-anastassia-michaeli-abortions-turn-women-into-lesbians.premium-1.439924

        So stfu! Go play your holier than though violin on someone else’ porch.

        Oh yeah and btw, get the hell outta Palestine – it ain’t your land, you don’t own it, ain’t renting it, and you ain’t borrowing it either – you’re frigging occupying it!

        Hahahaha yeah right we, and not just Arabs, should ALL be like israelis!

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 12:00 pm

        “Apart from liking regional humus and the wiggles of Arabic belly dancers, how EXACTLY have you colonialists “assimilated” into the region. By occupation and the slaughter of the natives?!”

        What does assimilation mean to you, exactly? Israelis have taken on many customs of the region. I’m not aware of obligations to establish an authoritarian dictatorship and oppress women as requirements of assimilation.

        “Apartheid israel is damned to rot for sure”

        You keep saying it, as Syria has a civil war, Iraq has a civil war, Iran boils within, Egypt has an upheaval, Libya has an upheaval, and Tunisia has an upheaval.

        Seems that Israel is the only country in the region that does not rot.

        “Can a female ride on a public bus in Jerusalem?”

        Yes, she can. There is no law restricting her from doing so. There are many places where she chooses not to.

        “Roads and housing for jews only? ”

        Can Palestinians sell land to Jews without being executed, A BIG FAT NO!

        “Ashkanazim, who are european jews, a minority in Apartheid israel? ”

        Is it a crime to have a background in Europe and live in the Middle East? A BIG FAT NO! Is Israel run exclusively by Ashkenazic Jews? A BIG FAT NO? Do Jews kicked out of Arab lands constitute a major portion of Israel? A BIG FAT YES!

        “Oh and only last week one of your female politicians declared that “abortion turns women into lesbians”.”

        Yes, in Israel, people do have FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Maybe people in Arab societies can learn something from that. Every week, one of your clerics compares Jews to pigs and monkeys, but if one of your citizens harshly criticizes his government or says something negative about Mohammed, there’s a good chance he’ll end up in jail.

        “So stfu! Go play your holier than though violin on someone else’ porch.”

        I know you wish I would, but your telling me to do so is evidence that you lack intellectual integrity.

        “Oh yeah and btw, get the hell outta Palestine – it ain’t your land, you don’t own it, ain’t renting it, and you ain’t borrowing it either – you’re frigging occupying it!”

        My people have a 3000 year history there. We’ll be there tomorrow, 100 years from now, and a thousand years from now. The Palestinians are welcome to a state. Just not welcome to take over ours.

        “Hahahaha yeah right we, and not just Arabs, should ALL be like israelis!”

        Again, I am quite confident that most Arabs in the street would trade the free speech, liberal democracy, and economic prosperity that prevails in today’s Israel for the rot that pervades their own economically backward, authoritarian, closed societies. For their sake, I hope it changes soon.

      • Taxi
        June 25, 2012, 1:45 pm

        I’m in Lebanon right now and EVERYTHING you describe ‘ayrabs’ as being just does NOT apply to where I’m hanging out.

        Howzbout that?!!

        And you expect me to take a hasbarado stereotyping smartypants like you seriously? Go pray for israel or something.

    • Hostage
      June 25, 2012, 12:08 pm

      There is no question that, if given the opportunity, they would work to turn Israel into the 23rd Arab state if they could.

      LOL! As if the two things are incompatible. Half of Israel’s citizens happen to be Arab Jews and Palestinians. Arabic is one of the official languages too.

      I could go on, or you could just read: Moshe Hillel Eitan, “A bold proposal: Israel should join the Arab League”. http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/18166/a-bold-proposal-israel-should-join-the-arab-league/

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 12:18 pm

        “LOL! As if the two things are incompatible. Half of Israel’s citizens happen to be Arab Jews and Palestinians. Arabic is one of the official languages too. ”

        So you call them Arab Jews, but you bristle if someone refers to the Palestinians within the Green Line as Israeli Arabs. Another double standard.

        Most Israelis (including the Israeli Arabs) do not want Israel to be anything like an Arab state.

        As far as joining the Arab League, I think that would be great. Is Israel being invited to join? I have no doubt that Israeli inclusion would be an immediate improvement over what currently passes for an Arab League.

      • Avi_G.
        June 25, 2012, 12:40 pm

        Most Israelis (including the Israeli Arabs) do not want Israel to be anything like an Arab state.

        Right, because those Arabs are so primitive, anything they touch turns into cockroach-infested garbage. Case in point — as the racist humpy likes to often state — is the terrible condition in which many an Arab state economy is in.

        This view, of course, is born of ignorance. hump doesn’t seem to realize what a cultural, scientific and modern center Baghdad, for example, used to be. The Azhar university in Cairo, educated many an Arab poet and philosopher.

        But just like Krauss, he, too, likes to sit in his chair some 7000 miles from the Middle East and pretend that he knows a single iota of fact about that region.

        And so he writes: “Most Israelis do not want Israel to be anything like an Arab state”.

        What is the basis for that empty claim? Is it based on polling data? Is it based on assumption? Is it based on propaganda, rumors and spin? Or, perhaps it is based on humpty’s own racist views?

      • Hostage
        June 25, 2012, 12:53 pm

        So you call them Arab Jews, but you bristle if someone refers to the Palestinians within the Green Line as Israeli Arabs. Another double standard.

        I don’t recall ever “bristling” over the use of either label. In fact, I’ve provided links to articles in which the authors have explained that the Israeli Supreme Court has ruled that there is no such thing as an “Israeli” nationality separate from the Jewish people. In light of that ruling, the term “Israeli Arab” would be an oxymoron, unless of course it refers to the “Arab Jews”.

        I’ve also provided links which explain that there is no such thing as an “Arab” nationality anywhere else in the world. It’s a legal fiction created by the government of Israel to deny the existence of the Palestinian people.

        For a fuller explanation, see “A racism outside of language: Israel’s apartheid”, by Saree Makdisi, in the Pambazuka News, 2010-03-11, Issue 473

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 1:41 pm

        “Right, because those Arabs are so primitive, anything they touch turns into cockroach-infested garbage. Case in point — as the racist humpy likes to often state — is the terrible condition in which many an Arab state economy is in. ”

        It has little to do with being primitive; I don’t like that word. Most don’t want it to be like China either, and China certainly isn’t a “primitive” society. Israel is an open place where people can talk and vote freely. Arab societies are by and large closed places. It is changing, and that is good.

        “This view, of course, is born of ignorance. hump doesn’t seem to realize what a cultural, scientific and modern center Baghdad, for example, used to be. The Azhar university in Cairo, educated many an Arab poet and philosopher. ”

        Did I ever say anywhere that Arab societies did not have a glorious past? It is all the more reason that Arabs are jealous of Israel today – they know what they should be, but aren’t.

        “What is the basis for that empty claim? Is it based on polling data? Is it based on assumption? Is it based on propaganda, rumors and spin? Or, perhaps it is based on humpty’s own racist views?”

        No, it’s pretty much common sense. If you’re living in an Arab state, chances are you’re a poor, undereducated person without full civil and political rights. Your government is mostly corrupt and largely unstable. Your press is not a free one. Your health care is probably not that good, and neither is your life expectancy. You’re not generally happy to be living there.

        Look at any recent quality of life index, and you’ll see that people in Israel are generally well-educated, happy, and prosperous, and people in Arab countries are generally unhappy, undereducated, and poor.

      • American
        June 25, 2012, 4:21 pm

        “”Most Israelis (including the Israeli Arabs) do not want Israel to be anything like an Arab state.”..hoppie

        Israel looks a lot worse than many Arab states in that I don’t see even Iran ghettoizing their Jews like Israelis do Arabs.
        Israel is just as primitive as any other theo-ethnic country.
        So I agree most Israelis want to be primitive.

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 6:42 pm

        “Israel looks a lot worse than many Arab states”

        Not according to the fact-based community.

        “I don’t see even Iran ghettoizing their Jews like Israelis do Arabs.”

        I’ll take Israel over Iran, and so will most people.

        “Israel is just as primitive as any other theo-ethnic country.”

        You can call it whatever you like. It will still be a liberal democracy that is the most diverse state in the region at the end of the day and the most social, culturally, politically, and economically successful.

      • Annie Robbins
        June 25, 2012, 6:54 pm

        I’ll take Israel over Iran, and so will most people.

        most people?

      • Taxi
        June 26, 2012, 2:17 am

        “most people”

        Delusions of grandeur in numbers uhuh.

      • eljay
        June 25, 2012, 12:45 pm

        >> From Moshe Hillel Eitan’s “bold proposal”:
        >> The acceptance of Israel into the Arab League would lead to a reinterpretation of both Zionism and Arab nationalism. … the Arab world should embrace Zionism as a historic example of self-determination, military success and economic empowerment … Zionism could be the engine of growth for the entire Middle East. The day may come when Arabs throughout the Middle East will consider themselves proud of both Zionism and Arab nationalism.

        IMO, the guy is nuts and his proposal is fanstastical. He expects “Arabs” to embrace both a supremacist state and the supremacist ideology that created and continues to drive it, despite the nightmare of immorality and injustice it has wrought unapologetically on “Arabs” for over 60 years.

      • Hostage
        June 25, 2012, 1:17 pm

        IMO, the guy is nuts and his proposal is fanstastical.

        Fair enough. IMO both Hophmi and Eitan are a little nuts. I cited the article to illustrate that Jews, not Arabs, are scheming to turn Israel into another Arab state.

        The League of Arab States has a well-known peace initiative that offers to recognize Israel inside the 67 frontiers in exchange for a full withdrawal and an agreed settlement of the refugee question in accordance UN GA resolution 194(III). The Palestinian political parties simply want Israel to be the state of all its citizens.

      • eljay
        June 25, 2012, 1:39 pm

        >> IMO both Hophmi and Eitan are a little nuts.

        I cannot disagree with this comment. :-)

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 1:42 pm

        “Fair enough. IMO both Hophmi and Eitan are a little nuts. I cited the article to illustrate that Jews, not Arabs, are scheming to turn Israel into another Arab state. ”

        Feeling is mutual, then. No, wait. I don’t think you’re nuts. I think you’re blatantly dishonest and that you misuse many of your sources but rely on the fact that most people here agree with you and won’t check.

      • Hostage
        June 25, 2012, 3:17 pm

        I think you’re blatantly dishonest and that you misuse many of your sources but rely on the fact that most people here agree with you and won’t check.

        Unlike you, I always provide links to third-party verifiable sources to support my contentions, and I tend to use verbatim block quotes. If you feel the urge, you’re always welcome to try and make better use of those same sources.

        I think the readers will decide for themselves which one of us makes the most tendentious use of the available source material on the subject and which of us makes the most outlandish and unsupported claims.

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 3:46 pm

        “Unlike you, I always provide links to third-party verifiable sources to support my contentions”

        Like the book blaming the Jews for the Holocaust.

        “and I tend to use verbatim block quotes”

        Yes, and more than once I’ve shown how they’re out-of-context and don’t say what you claim.

        “If you feel the urge, you’re always welcome to try and make better use of those same sources. ”

        I have on occasion when I have time to wade through what you post.

        “I think the readers will decide for themselves which one of us makes the most tendentious use of the available source material on the subject and which of us makes the most outlandish and unsupported claims.”

        I think readers will generally adopt the views of those who think like them and won’t bother to check sources.

      • Hostage
        June 25, 2012, 8:29 pm

        Like the book blaming the Jews for the Holocaust.

        Hophmi, I’ve never cited any book that blamed Jews for the Holocaust. I’ve cited some books by Ben Hecht, Simha Flapan, Edwin Black, Lenni Brenner, and Hannah Arendt that say Zionist leaders, like Rudolf Kastner and Chaim Arlosoroff, chose to collaborate or cooperate with the Nazi regime, while the rest of the world was adopting boycotts and sanctions against them. I cited books by Morris Ernst, Alfred Lilienthal, and Boas Evron which said that the Zionists leaders, including the members of the Zionist Executive, had acted to prevent the Evian Conference from taking action to rescue and resettle Jewish war refugees in other countries. I also cited “Political and Diplomatic Documents Central Zionist Archives/Israel State Archives, and Documents on the Foreign Relations of the United States which clearly indicate that key Zionist leaders, including WZO President Chaim Weizmann, were interested in screening-out a million of the 2 million displaced Jews of Europe, because they were considered undesirables, little more than human dust, with no future.

        I’ve pointed out that no matter how bad the Jewish leadership behaved, nothing that they did justified the crimes of genocide that the Nazis committed against the Jewish people.

        You on the other hand have claimed that the religious beliefs of the victims of the Holocaust regarding the 3 Oaths have been “discredited”. That claim contradicts the views of those who teach that martyrdom in the Holocaust was one of the greatest examples of Kiddush Hashem (sanctification of God’s Name). Many religious authorities claim that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is a reference to the mistreatment and sacrifice of the Jews down through the ages, including those who died at the hands of the Nazi oppressors, e.g.
        *http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108398/jewish/Belief-After-the-Holocaust.htm
        *http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_Suffering_Servant.html

        more than once I’ve shown how they’re out-of-context and don’t say what you claim.

        I’ll let the readers decide, but I don’t think you’ve been too successful in that department.

    • Inanna
      June 25, 2012, 11:18 pm

      My part of the Middle East has long been traded between one conqueror and another. The zionists are just the latest in that stream. Now if zionists decided to play nice and fit in rather than murder, expel and steal, we would’ve gotten along. But since you decided to murder and expel and steal and not share, I don’t see a future for you between the river and the sea. Darned if I know why the rest of the region or the world should put up with it. And yeah, if you really won’t share, you’ll be gone. Not by any other hand except your own, as Israel implodes from the weight of its internal contradictions. Israel will fall when those with second passports leave it to its fate. We won’t have to lift a finger. And all because you got too greedy.

  14. eljay
    June 25, 2012, 10:21 am

    >> International anti-Israel activism is little more than a manifestation of the idea that hundreds of millions can force their will on a few million people.

    Hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists prefer the simpler idea that “Jews can force their will on non-Jews”.

    >> You do realize that mostly, Arab societies will, if they smart, emulate Israel rather than other way around, don’t you?

    Hmmm…so, Arab societies should become oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist. That sounds like a really bad idea.

    • hophmi
      June 25, 2012, 11:47 am

      LOL. Jews have forced their will on no one.

      “Hmmm…so, Arab societies should become oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist. That sounds like a really bad idea.”

      ROTFLMAO. Arab societies are already oppressive, colonialist, expansionist, and supremacist. They are parody-worthy.

      Arab societies are JEALOUS of an Israeli society that outpaces them in every single way. Israel is a liberal democracy, an economic miracle, a place where human rights are respected, and a place where people are actually happy to live. Arab countries are generally places where most people are poor, society does not respect basic civil and political liberties, minorities are persecuted, and government is corrupt.

      And this is still all true despite Israel’s turn to the right in recent years.

      The complaining and shouting that goes on from people like you is symptomatic of those who have an inferiority complex.

      • Mooser
        June 25, 2012, 12:30 pm

        “Jews have forced their will on no one.”

        First of all, don’t you mean “Zionists”, not “Jews”? What you mean-um “we”, paleface? But let it go.

        Yes, I remember how much Zionism emphasises friendly persuasion and win-win situations, and stressed how awful it would be for “Jews” as you call them, to impose their will on anybody. Why, didn’t Benny Gurion and Jabotinsky, wearing his signature jabot say that for the Jewish people to impose their will on others would spell the end of the Jews as a great nation.
        Impose our will ?Quel horreurs!

      • Woody Tanaka
        June 25, 2012, 12:33 pm

        “an economic miracle”

        Is that what you call sucking Uncle Sam’s welfare-teat for 40 years? A miracle?

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 1:03 pm

        You know, Woody, I know there is plenty to criticize about Israel. But I also laugh when people start to believe their own fact-free propaganda.

        Wake up, Woody. Israel has more startups per capita than any country on the face of the earth. There is more venture capital running through Israel than any other country on the face of the Earth. Everyone in the fact-based world agrees that Israel is an economic miracle.

      • Woody Tanaka
        June 25, 2012, 1:40 pm

        “Israel has more startups per capita than any country on the face of the earth.”

        Then it will have no problem giving up the welfare check from the USA.

        “There is more venture capital running through Israel than any other country on the face of the Earth.”

        False. Not even close by a long shot. It has the highest per capita, but only if the apartheid government’s definitions are used and the vote-less unpersons who’ve been under the boot of the israeli oppressors aren’t counted. If you didn’t include the USA’s poorest 50% of the population, our per capita number would be sky high, too.

        “Everyone in the fact-based world agrees that Israel is an economic miracle.”

        LOL. No everyone recognizes that it is making a push in this sector, in part, because it has little else to offer the world, and in part because it is cashing in on the investment made by the USSR and in the education of scientists who later repaid that investment by scurrying off to a foreign country. It is further helped by the fact that it has access to American and other foreigners who are fellow travelers in their ideology, which provides for the vast majority of the venture capital. So, no, it’s not a miracle, it’s just taking Russian education investment and American capital and putting them together and siphoning off the profits.

      • Hostage
        June 25, 2012, 2:46 pm

        Wake up, Woody. Israel has more startups per capita than any country on the face of the earth. There is more venture capital running through Israel than any other country on the face of the Earth.

        Actually there’s very little capital “running through” Israel. Foreign investors don’t like to invest in war zones. Foreign Direct investment (FDI) in Saudi Arabia was $35.9 billion in 2008. That same year FDI in Israel was $10 billion. In 2009 FDI in Israel dropped 64% according to the annual report published by UN trade and development unit. It showed that foreign direct investment totaled only $3.9 billion. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3924803,00.html

        A pattern capital flight is happening again. See:
        Foreign Investors Flee Israel Amid Regulatory Wave, War Talk
        http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/business/2012/03/jumping-ship.html
        Moody’s cuts Israeli banks’ outlook to negative
        http://www.haaretz.com/business/moody-s-cuts-israeli-banks-outlook-to-negative-1.429131
        Israeli exports to EU down 16%
        http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4229900,00.html

        I could go on but you should get the picture. Israel isn’t a miracle. It needs capital and markets like everyone else.

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 3:43 pm

        “Then it will have no problem giving up the welfare check from the USA. ”

        I’m sure it will not have any problem giving up the loan guarantees it receives and returns to the US economy through the purchase of US products.

        “False. Not even close by a long shot. It has the highest per capita”

        Correct. It has the highest per capita.

        “but only if the apartheid government’s definitions are used and the vote-less unpersons who’ve been under the boot of the israeli oppressors aren’t counted.”

        Why would people in the West Bank be counted? They’re not Israelis and do not desire to be. They are part of the PA.

        “If you didn’t include the USA’s poorest 50% of the population, our per capita number would be sky high, too.”

        Guess what. Even if you included them, I’m willing to be venture capital would STILL be one of the highest per capita in the world, and Israel would STILL rank number one for startups per capita.

        “No everyone recognizes that it is making a push in this sector, in part, because it has little else to offer the world, and in part because it is cashing in on the investment made by the USSR and in the education of scientists who later repaid that investment by scurrying off to a foreign country. ”

        ROTFLMFAO. Push in this sector? Really, you are hilarious. We live in the age of technology.

        But, as usual, it’s not even true. Israel’s major industrial sectors include metal products, electronic and biomedical equipment, processed foods, chemicals, and transport equipment. It is a leading exporter of greenhouse foods. It’s a leader in solar energy.

        The economy is more than just the “technology sector.” Honestly, I’m laughing my ass off writing that as I think about the ignorance and hatred behind that comment. I’m laughing as I think of all of the contributions Israeli society has made to the world, because, in Woody’s immortal words, “it has little else to offer the world.” It is so emblematic of what happens when a pro-Palestinian’s corrosive ideology turns into pure stupidity. Yes, Israel has “little else” to offer, except all of the stuff it has to offer.

        And to talk about the “investment” the USSR made in scientists who ran off to a “foreign country.” Apparently, things were so good for Jews (and everybody else) in the USSR that Woody can’t understand why these scientists wouldn’t stay.

        Thank you for providing me with some levity today. It really has brightened my day.

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 4:28 pm

        “Actually there’s very little capital “running through” Israel.”

        Again, I have to laugh and to note once again how disingenuous you are, Hostage.

        First of all, you cite an FDI drop from 2008 to 2009, when as the article clearly says, everybody experienced a drop in FDI. That was because of the worldwide recession.

        There is, in fact, a great deal of capital running through Israel, which, in the fact-based world, is regarded as an economic miracle. Only the United States has more private equity capital invested as a share of GDP.

        http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_3_jewish-capitalism.html
        http://www.investinisrael.gov.il/NR/exeres/75A535CF-BCC7-4A06-9E24-88EAC7EC67C0.htm

        “In recent years, Israel has become a magnet for foreign investors. The list of those who have taken advantage of Israel’s uniquely skilled, and highly educated workforce and cutting-edge R&D capabilities by establishing subsidiaries, production lines or R&D centers include top international companies like Intel, Microsoft, Motorola, Google, Applied Materials, HP, Deutsche Telekom, and Samsung among others. Even Apple has recently announced its intention to open its first overseas R&D center in Israel. Given Israel’s emphasis on innovative technologies and research, Israeli companies continue to attract foreign investors. Despite the global credit crisis multinational concerns continue to invest in Israeli expertise. ”

        Apparently, Warren Buffett was not worried about investing in Israeli companies, and he’s generally done well and is not know for making risky investments.

        http://www.haaretz.com/business/warren-buffett-iscar-continues-to-amaze-1.414822

        Comparison with Saudi Arabia is silly. Saudi Arabia has a high level of FDI because of the oil companies; oil is 45% of its GDP and 90%(!) of its exports. You’re right, Hostage, Israel is never going to be the world’s gas station.

        “Israel isn’t a miracle.”

        Yes, it is.

        http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2011/04/israels_economic_miracle

        “Israel’s entrepreneurial accomplishments have indeed been nothing short of miraculous. Since 1972, over 160 Israeli ventures have been listed on NASDAQ, more than any other country outside of the U.S. and Canada, and hundreds of tech ventures have been acquired. Tens, if not hundreds, of billions of dollars of value have been created. The world benefits from Israeli innovations, such as the USB memory stick, instant messaging and new generation cardiac stents, to name a few. ”

        Again, as I said previously, there’s plenty about Israel to criticize. But you hurt yourselves and the Palestinians by not at least recognizing the accomplishes, which can be emulated by others.

      • Hostage
        June 25, 2012, 9:08 pm

        Hophmi the 3 billion dollars in annual grants from the US are not subject to repayment or any accounting in the majority of cases. Much of it is spent on Israeli R&D. Even when the grants are used to furnish weapons from US suppliers, Israel requires them to source parts, supplies, and services from Israeli sources and subcontractors. In any event, Israel is always the beneficiary of free assets.

        You didn’t mention that in 2009 the 3 billion in US grants matched the 3 billion dollars in total Foreign Direct Investment. So it is a significant economic factor.

        There is, in fact, a great deal of capital running through Israel

        You avoided any comment on stories from 2012 about the recent drop in FDI, the recent drop in exports to Israel’s largest trading partners, and the switch in Moody’s rating of Israeli banking outlook to negative. Your comment on FDI in Saudi Arabia is nonsense. Much more investment capital is being poured through Saudi Arabia. It doesn’t matter that it’s attributable to the oil industry.

      • Woody Tanaka
        June 26, 2012, 7:25 am

        “I’m sure it will not have any problem giving up the loan guarantees it receives and returns to the US economy through the purchase of US products.”

        I’m not just talking about the loan guarantees, I’m talking all of the military welfare and all the private transfer of wealth. All of it.

        “Correct. It has the highest per capita.”

        So you admit you were wrong.

        “Why would people in the West Bank be counted?”

        Because measuring economics on a per capita basis is inherently misleading if you don’t include the entire population who are part of the economic unit in the analysis, and because of the occupation, these are an integrated unit. You zios can’t have it both ways; if you don’t want to consider the Palestinians territories, then get your evil asses behind the green line.

        “Guess what. Even if you included them, I’m willing to be venture capital would STILL be one of the highest per capita in the world…”

        Nope. It would be behind the US, at least.

        “Push in this sector? Really, you are hilarious. We live in the age of technology.”

        Yes, but that does not mean that, overnight, every other sector of economic activity has disappeared. Don’t be a moron, hoppy.

        “I’m laughing as I think of all of the contributions Israeli society has made to the world, because, in Woody’s immortal words, ‘it has little else to offer the world.’”

        Yes, let’s see what else has “Israeli society” contributed: it’s has mainstreamed ethno-religious bigotry as government policy and the murder of children.

        And, yes, it has little else to offer the world because it has no natural resources to speak of, it has poor to only moderate agricultural land and does not have a population or economy suitable for large scale, low-cost consumer-goods manufacturing. So it concentrates on high tech and information technology. Good for them. Too bad their acts are demonic on the human-rights front.

        “Yes, Israel has ‘little else’ to offer, except all of the stuff it has to offer.”

        Yeah, I forgot “Soda Stream.”

        “And to talk about the ‘investment’ the USSR made in scientists who ran off to a ‘foreign country.’ Apparently, things were so good for Jews (and everybody else) in the USSR that Woody can’t understand why these scientists wouldn’t stay.”

        The reason why they left is irrelevant. The point I’m making is that it is simple to see the reason for this so-called miracle when you import people who are highly-educated (and highly educated in things like engineering) and don’t have to foot the bill for the education. This miracle is driven, in large part, by israel living parasitically on the defunct Soviet educational system.

      • Hostage
        June 28, 2012, 9:49 am

        Hophmi here is an article from the Jerusalem Post which makes the Israeli economy sound pretty fragile and not so very large.

        The Bank of Israel governor Stanley Fischer explains that Israel needed Uncle Sam to bail-out the economy in 2003 with a 9 billion dollar loan guarantee. He certainly isn’t recommending that Israel give up any free US military equipment or grants:

        Speaking at the Israel Democracy Institute’s annual Caesarea Forum at the Dead Sea, Fischer said the deficit was likely to reach 3.5-4% this year and pointed out that in 2009 it rose from 0% to 5% almost instantly due to unexpected tax revenue shortfalls. If such an event were to occur again, he warned, the deficit could reach 7-8%, “and we would not be able to deal with that.”

        “The last time that happened we turned to our rich uncle for guarantees. Today that rich uncle is less friendly,” Fischer said, in apparent reference to the $9 billion in loan guarantees the US offered Israel following the economic downturn in 2003. “It is not healthy for a state that is proud of its sovereignty to turn to external actors every time there is a problem. I would prefer that we stand on our own two feet.”

        — Fischer warns PM against raising budget deficit
        http://www.jpost.com/Business/BusinessNews/Article.aspx?id=275621

      • seafoid
        June 28, 2012, 10:45 am

        YESHA costs 2-3% of GDP per year
        Jews couldn’t be so stupid as to build a colonial theme park in the West Bank and keep funding it during the economic downturn of the century.

      • hophmi
        June 28, 2012, 11:55 am

        “Hophmi here is an article from the Jerusalem Post which makes the Israeli economy sound pretty fragile and not so very large.”

        Yeah, no one said it was perfect. Nevertheless, given what is going on the Eurozone and United States and the world economy, I think in general Israel’s is pretty good shape. There’s nothing in this article that isn’t the typical back and forth that goes on between a central banking head and political leadership, much as it does here between the chairman of the Fed and Congress.

        Some think the BoI is a trendsetter for other economies:

        http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2012/06/25/1058431/interesting-israeli-easing/

        This article, which is critical of the concentration of ownership in Israel, says the Israeli economy is “celebrated for its dynamism.”

        http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/1ddefc42-bbb2-11e1-9aff-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1z6U66Psj

        I’m not too worried.

      • seafoid
        June 28, 2012, 1:10 pm

        Israel has no strategic depth . All the spare money over 2 generations went into YESHA.

        If the EZ breaks up then Israel will be in trouble. It will be some such black swan event that brings matters to a head. Behind the bomb and the Israeli air force is a culture of sloppiness and “everything will work out”.

        http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page/carmel-fire-report-exposes-israel-s-unpreparedness-for-potential-iran-war.premium-1.439992?trailingPath=2.169%2C2.216%2C2.217%2C

        The report shows that a lack of training materials and drills for firefighters, a low operational level and a gap in equipment – all of these were known to the decision-makers before the disaster. Many more problems occurred among officers in the police and senior firefighters during the fire, including arriving at the scene, the lack of ability to put together credible situation reports and a lack of control over forces.

      • Taxi
        June 28, 2012, 3:30 pm

        “Many more problems occurred…”

        That’s cuz they dealt with the Carmel fire like it was a brainless terrorist. Not a mighty force to know well and to prepare for.

        Oh the arrogance, the arrogance, l’horreur!

      • eljay
        June 25, 2012, 12:47 pm

        >> Arab societies are already oppressive, colonialist, expansionist, and supremacist. They are parody-worthy.

        In which case they and Israel are birds of a feather.

        >> Israel is a liberal democracy, an economic miracle, a place where human rights are respected …

        I see that you are delusional as well as being a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist.

        >> The complaining and shouting that goes on from people like you is symptomatic of those who have an inferiority complex.

        Funny stuff, coming from a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist who never ceases to bitch and moan about how his supremacist state and his supremacist co-collectivists are hard done by.

      • hophmi
        June 25, 2012, 1:10 pm

        “In which case they and Israel are birds of a feather.”

        Israel is a liberal democracy. It is in no way like an Arab society.

        “I see that you are delusional as well as being a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist.”

        Sorry that the facts hurt. Your jealousy shines through your childish name-calling.
        “Funny stuff, coming from a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist who never ceases to bitch and moan about how his supremacist state and his supremacist co-collectivists are hard done by.”

        LOL. There is far, far more complaining from the pro-Palestinian movement here.

      • eljay
        June 25, 2012, 1:35 pm

        >> Your jealousy shines through your childish name-calling.

        I’m Canadian. I have no reason to be jealous of ugly little supremacist states like Israel.

        You continue to amuse me, little man. :-)

      • seafoid
        June 28, 2012, 10:50 am

        Israel is no liberal democracy. Land in the West Bank is deemed to be Israeli State Land yet the Palestinians in the West Bank have no rights under Israeli law. Israel is a bullshit state.

        BTW you are right that Israel is not like any Arab society. Israel is the only Sparta in the region.

      • Inanna
        June 25, 2012, 11:36 pm

        Jews forced their will on noone? Well, zionists certainly did. In fact, about 800 000 someones in 1947/8 and then about 250 000 someones in 1967. let alone the thousands of someones who are internal refugees in Israel and can’t return to their homes. Let’s not forget the thousands of someones who were killed in Lebanon in 1982 (20,000 someones) and all those who died there during the 18 year occupation of southern Lebanon.

        But I guess you don’t see them because they are noone. That’s what you mean when you say ‘Jews forced their will on noone’. Because Arabs, Lebanese, Palestinians are noone in your eyes.

        As for being jealous of Israel, I find the notion laughable. You sound like a cock crowing on its own dunghill. Look down hophmi – you’re standing knee-deep in it. The real miracle is Lebanon, which keeps rebuilding after you destroy it. The real miracle is Palestine and the Palestinians, who keep struggling non-violently day after day, despite the violence raining down on them day after day. Keep living in your fantasy Israel hophmi but don’t remove those blinders to the reality around you. The shattering of your illusions will be too painful for you.

      • Taxi
        June 26, 2012, 9:57 am

        Ah yeah the everyone is “jealous” of Apartheid israel shaggy dog story.

        I know this for sure: the Lebanese fight better, they eat better and hot damn, they are better looking than… you know who.

  15. southernobserver
    June 25, 2012, 10:16 pm

    “Ce corps qui s’appelait et qui s’appelle encore le saint empire romain n’était en aucune manière ni saint, ni romain, ni empire.” from memory, Voltaire.

    The only liberal democracy in the middle east is neither the only, or liberal or democratic. At the very best it is an unpleasant ethnocracy with strong Fascistic and Theocratic elements. No country that deliberately and systematically restricts who may marry or immigrate through religious courts, arbitrarily arrests, tortures suspects, spies on and beats up its protesters or so aggressively limits press freedom is anyway liberal.

    There are many other countries that are as bad or worse. Yes, and? I am happy to grant that Israel is better that the worst of the worst. Does this make its oppression better? And the truth is that in many cases, ‘we’, the so called west successfully made them that way. I am no longer sure that ‘we’ can actually ‘make’ countries good, but at the very least we should stop supporting oppression.

  16. hophmi
    June 26, 2012, 10:42 am

    “The only liberal democracy in the middle east is neither the only, or liberal or democratic. At the very best it is an unpleasant ethnocracy with strong Fascistic and Theocratic elements. No country that deliberately and systematically restricts who may marry or immigrate through religious courts, arbitrarily arrests, tortures suspects, spies on and beats up its protesters or so aggressively limits press freedom is anyway liberal. ”

    Whatever. You can SAY whatever you want. It doesn’t make it true.

    It is not an ethnocracy. It is an ethnic democracy. Saudi Arabia – that’s an ethnocracy. Egypt is an Arab Republic – that’s an ethnocracy. Iran is an Islamic Republic – that’s an ethnocracy. It is not remotely fascist. Most representatives are secular; it is not a theocracy. Iran, run by mullahs – that’s a theocracy. Saudi Arabia, run by sheikhs – that’s a theocracy. You can talk about press freedom; it has one of the freest presses on the planet, and certainly, by far, by very far, the freest press in the region.

    • southernobserver
      June 26, 2012, 5:29 pm

      I fully agree. Israel is extremely similar to Iran; both have some democratic institutions combined with some religious oppression. In someways Iran is better, in others it is worse.

      Again, I cannot but concur with you that press freedom is one of the most important indices of freedom, if only because if your journalists are being arrested and persecuted, they are coming for you next.

      http://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2011-2012,1043.html.
      Israel currently ranks 133rd and falling. It is below Jordan, a neighbouring state with some democratic institutions. Currently below Ethiopia oh my, but one step above Lebanon. I would be happy to agree that it has been broadly similar to both over time. Who else is better? Brunei, not really a democracy at all. Algeria, a badly damaged state, the Ukraine…

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