3 stories without legs

Israel/PalestineUS Politics
on 96 Comments

How many of these stories will our media see fit to print or follow up on?

Netanyahu’s speech to Christians United for Israel, affirming Jews’ biblical rights to the West Bank, reported by Alice Bach of EI (emphasis mine):

“You stand with us. You understand Israel’s right to defend itself against Iran, Hizbollah, Hamas. And I promise the Jewish people will never deny our own story. Judea and Samaria (known as the West Bank) is the homeland of the Jewish people… You are Bible believers. You know that ever since God gave the land of Israel to the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the prophets rallied to the protection of Israel. And even when a young Galilean Jew [applause breaks out], that young prophet preached peace, and reminded us that we have one common destiny.”

Ynet on an incident that, if it involved a Koran, might be big news:

MK Michael Ben Ari (National Union), a member of the Israeli parliament tore up a copy of the New Testament and threw it in the trash, an act that was apparently caught on camera.

Ben Ari and several other Knesset members received by mail on Monday a copy of the New Testament, sent by the Bible Society in Israel, an organization that distributes religious books.

…“This abominable book (the New Testament) galvanized the murder of millions of Jews during the Inquisition and during auto da fe instances,” Ben Ari said adding that “Sending the book to MK’s is a provocation. There is no doubt that this book and all it represents belongs in the garbage can of history.”

Associated Press on Hillary’s visit to Jerusalem:

A Palestinian journalist says he and three colleagues trying to cover U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton’s news conference walked away after being asked to drop their pants in an Israeli security check.

The Palestinian journalists were invited to Monday’s event by the U.S. consulate, which sent a staffer to guide them through security. Mohammed Abu Khdeir of the Al Quds newspaper says Israeli and foreign journalists were not asked to strip.

Foreign journalists have complained in the past about being strip-searched at events with top Israeli politicians though the practice appears to have eased.

The incident rated one line in the New York Times report on Hillary’s visit. From the Australian:

The Palestinian Journalists Syndicate protested what it described as “the humiliating treatment” the journalists received at the hotel, despite being invited by the US consulate to attend the meeting.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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96 Responses

  1. Dan Crowther
    July 19, 2012, 10:46 am

    Akiva Orr (matzpen) tells a great story about a jew who was hid in a church basement during the second world war in I think poland, he was forced to stay out of sight for months on end. After the war Orr met up with him, only now the guy was a christian monk! Orr said something like “wow, so you converted to save yourself, or did they make you?” And the guy responded – “no, the only book I had to read in that basement was the new testament, i had never read it, and when I did, Christ changed my mind.”

    I bash organized religion all the time (here and elsewhere) I dont have any use for it, but the Sermon on the Mount and its radical humanist message in no way belong in the trash can of history. Say what you want about christianity, but Jesus was indeed, a righteous dude.

    • Woody Tanaka
      July 19, 2012, 11:02 am

      “I bash organized religion all the time (here and elsewhere) I dont have any use for it, but the Sermon on the Mount and its radical humanist message in no way belong in the trash can of history. Say what you want about christianity, but Jesus was indeed, a righteous dude.”

      I think that there are some elements of Christian morality (as well as many other moralities) which, when detached from the tehology, are decednt enough, but in most cases, as with the Sermon on the Mount, it is because they are pre-existing moral precepts which have been co-opted by the religions.

      Some of his teachings were very much less than righteous.

      • Dan Crowther
        July 19, 2012, 12:20 pm

        Oy Vey. Sorry for uttering even a qualified positive statement about Jesus – my bad.

      • John Smithson
        July 19, 2012, 1:39 pm

        Name one teaching of Jesus Christ that was ‘less than righteous’ – please.

      • traintosiberia
        July 20, 2012, 9:01 am

        There are plenty and you wont like it.
        ” If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.”- John 15

        Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. Luke 14

        The first was used by Spain for inquisition
        Second was used by St Augustaine to legalize forced conversion

        .. But those mine enemies,
        who would not that I should reign over them, bring here, and slay them before me.” (Luke 19:12,14,15,27)

        “Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:34-37).
        If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:26).

      • W.Jones
        July 20, 2012, 10:26 am

        traintosiberia,

        The Old and New Testaments poetic and spiritual texts do not always mean what they say at face value. Instead, they are often parables.

        Now Jesus didn’t have an earthly army, and in fact he and his disciples were being persecuted, and sometimes left places because of the religious authorities. He also said to forgive enemies, and one time healed a Roman soldier’s ear when the soldier tried to arrest him and Peter cut his ear. So Luke 19:27 most likely isn’t instructions to kill anti-Christians.

        Now when we look at Luke 19:27, and put it in context, we see it is just the end of a parable, not instructions for the apostles to kill people:

        19:11 While they were listening to these things, Jesus went on to tell a parable…
        19:12 So He said, “A nobleman, went to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself, and then return.
        19:13 “And he called ten of his slaves, and gave them ten minas and said to them, ‘Do business with this until I come back.’
        19:14 “But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’
        [skip to end]
        …19:25 “And they said to him[the nobleman], ‘Master, he has ten minas already.’
        19:26 “I[the nobleman] tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
        19:27 “But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.”

        So at the end of the parable, it is the hypothetical nobleman that gives instructions to kill the enemies. But that doesn’t mean those are Jesus’ instructions.

        Instead, it is a teaching of morality. And the teaching in the Torah is that when the people reject God, bad things happen. In the Old and New Testaments however, if you repent, then God forgives you. And that’s one of the main ideas of Christianity.

      • Mooser
        July 20, 2012, 2:03 pm

        “Name one teaching of Jesus Christ that was ‘less than righteous’ – please.”

        Proof He existed, and said the words attributed to Him, please. Also a few testimonials and DNA tests concerning Immaculate Conception and Resurrection would not be amiss at this point.
        And anyway, how original was his stuff? I’ve heard a million people say the same things, all the time. It’s pretty commonplace stuff among progressives and liberals. Maybe He was just copying them?
        BTW, info on resurrection is needed first. I’m getting old, and there will be things I need to get done after I die. If I pass away intestate and all, my wife will get everything and me, nothing. But I don’t suppose Jesus had any advice on that, huh?

      • anonymouscomments
        July 19, 2012, 4:37 pm

        please woody, i would like some quotes. the old testament freaks me the hell out, and parts of the new testament….

        but what words and things about jesus himself “were very much less than righteous”?

        honestly, i haven’t read much of the bible…. so i actually am requesting an answer, and am sincere. i’m sure there is some questionable stuff, but i’m not familiar with it….

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 20, 2012, 10:15 am

        @ anonymouscomment:

        “i would like some quotes. the old testament freaks me the hell out, and parts of the new testament….”

        Under the realilty of Christian theology, no distinction can be drawn between Old and New Testament teachings in terms of who asserted them. The Christian believe that Jesus is God. The teachings in the Old Testament that freaked you out are Jesus’ teachings, under Christian theology.

        But beyond that, there is the whole idea of eternal damnation for earthly sin (especially given some of the things that qualify as “sin”) is also a Jesus teaching which is very much less than righteous.

      • John Smithson
        July 19, 2012, 5:15 pm

        Woody – Can’t let this one go by without questioning. Which teachings of Jesus Christ’s were ‘very much less than righteous’?

      • John Smithson
        July 20, 2012, 8:22 am

        As I suspected, it’s hard to find something to back up your unfounded and inflammatory claim. This comment of yours (in my opinion) has no place on Mondoweiss.

        If we were at a dinner party we’d now be having a scene – and when everyone realized what it was about you wouldn’t be to welcome anymore.

        Last post by me calling you out on this. Any response Woody Tanaka?

      • MRW
        July 20, 2012, 8:55 am

        @John Smithson,

        Look what his [Jesus] followers did with it.

      • OlegR
        July 20, 2012, 9:33 am

        How about this little passage from Matthew

        ” “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

        “‘a man against his father,
        a daughter against her mother,
        a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law —
        36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
        37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.”

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 20, 2012, 10:03 am

        John Smithson,

        I attempted two responses which haven’t been posted by the mods.

        C’est la vie.

      • W.Jones
        July 20, 2012, 10:46 am

        Oleg,

        The Old Testament prophets portrayed society as very ill. That is how our society is even today. The news media gives one image, but the reality is different, with corruption and mistreatment all around. Doing and believing the right thing often means going against one’s own relatives, and they can attack you for it.

        The passage from Matthew reflects that a person has a choice about this. He can either accept the things his/her own community tells him, all the justifications and self-serving ideas, or he can strongly question it from a universal moral standpoint. And if he chooses where that moral path can take him, and is true to his questioning and the right answers, it can lead him into conflict with his community and relatives. A path of hardship. But at the end, the New Testament says there is life. That there is life and light at the end of this tunnel is sometimes even hard for me to believe.

      • seanmcbride
        July 20, 2012, 11:42 am

        OlegR,

        This strikes me as the essential difference and conflict between Judaism and Christianity: traditional (pre-Enlightenment) Judaism is an ethnic nationalist and self-ghettoizing ideology which organizes it myths around endless battles with ethnic outsiders (“the nations”). Christianity is a universalist and all-embracing ideology that transcends ethnicity and nationalism. From the standpoint of Judaism, Christianity is a revolutionary and unacceptable assault on the claims of the Jews to be “the chosen people” and the priesthood of the world. Christianity especially rankles because this radical revolt and challenge to traditional Jewish authority occurred within the ranks of the Jewish tradition itself.

        What do you think?

        Traditional religious Jews are still counting on Moshiach to destroy all their enemies (including Christians, Hellenists, etc.) and to establish their domination over the world.

        Obviously from the standpoint of “the nations” (the goyim, all non-Jews), there is not much chance of an amicable accommodation with this ideological agenda.

        Modern Enlightenment and humanist Jews have decided to join “the nations” and meet them on an equal footing. They have jettisoned the messianic and supremacist biblical fantasies that have created endless problems between Jews and their neighbors.

      • Mooser
        July 20, 2012, 12:00 pm

        “The Old Testament prophets portrayed society as very ill.”

        Oh C’mon, W Jones, what can you expect? No Bactine, no band-Aids, no Neo-sporin, no Hexachlorophene, no Super-Supplements, no aluminum chlorohydrate, no Cavity-fighting toothpastes recommended by four-out-of- five-dentists in nine-out-of-ten-tribes. Nothing, absolutely nothing, was certified organic! Who can live like that?
        BTW, will you be appearing on that game show with Marc Ellis? I’d like to hedge my bets.

      • Mooser
        July 20, 2012, 12:03 pm

        “He can either accept the things his/her own community tells him, all the justifications and self-serving ideas, or he can strongly question it from a universal moral standpoint. And if he chooses where that moral path can take him, and is true to his questioning and the right answers, it can lead him into conflict with his community and relatives. A path of hardship. But at the end, the New Testament says there is life. That there is life and light at the end of this tunnel is sometimes even hard for me to believe.”

        No there’s a guy who knows the apropriate kind of material for this site! Hey, you gotta admit, if all the Jews in Israel converted to Christianity, things would be a lot different. And there would be a new market for Washington State’s Christmas Tree growers.

      • Mooser
        July 20, 2012, 12:05 pm

        “That there is life and light at the end of this tunnel is sometimes even hard for me to believe.”

        Hey, okay, I can see the life and light, but what’s that peculiar chugging sound. It seems to be coming closer… Does it feel to you like the ground is shaking?…

      • John Smithson
        July 20, 2012, 12:09 pm

        #1 – it’s part of a parable – refers more to the time of final judgement when Christ returns (end times) and will be for God to implement at that time, not us (that’s my reading). If you want to twist stuff (or if so-called followers of Jesus want to do evil and twist this into something else) you can, but don’t think Jesus was saying he wanted to have those that won’t follow him NOW killed, but rather that there will be an ultimate judgment (after he’s gone a while…get it, it’s a parable). Here’s a more complete reference:

        11 As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. 12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. 13 Calling ten of his servants,[a] he gave them ten minas,[b] and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15 When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. 16 The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant![c] Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’ 19 And he said to him, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’ 20 Then another came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your mina, which I kept laid away in a handkerchief; 21 for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man. You take what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 He said to him, ‘I will condemn you with your own words, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, and at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ 24 And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25 And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten minas!’ 26 ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

      • Mooser
        July 20, 2012, 2:07 pm

        “Look what his [Jesus] followers did with it.”

        Oh, c’mon now MRW. “By their fruits, ye shall know them”
        Do you think that’s fair? I mean, I don’t hate anybody but some people are just too flagrant, if you get my meaning.

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 20, 2012, 7:31 pm

        “If you want to twist stuff (or if so-called followers of Jesus want to do evil and twist this into something else) you can, but don’t think Jesus was saying he wanted to have those that won’t follow him NOW killed, but rather that there will be an ultimate judgment”

        And how is that any better. Let’s face it, there is a very low bar for “sin” in Christianity, and we all know that the punishment is unceasing torture forever. So, really, you think it’s a-ok to preach that someone deserves hideous torture FOREVER because he placed his genitals in an unapproved place? Or because he worshiped 10 gods instead of one?? You don’t see a big boiling sack of evil in that??

      • John Smithson
        July 23, 2012, 9:55 am

        Mooser – Just so long as you don’t complain when others get funny/sarcastic with something you value/believe/respect.

        Jesus’s ideas were and remain radical. Total selflessness, lack of materialism, willing to sacrifice yourself for the sake of others, etc.

        Jesus never validated the inquisition, so don’t imply he did. Get real.

        I remain unmoved as to the idea that the quotes provided from bible out of context have somehow validated the idea that Jesus was ‘less than righteous’.

        Let’s stay focued on this site at the task at hand. Calling other people’s Gods names is not productive. If I ever do so, please correct me.

    • FreddyV
      July 19, 2012, 12:51 pm

      @Dan Crowther: Great post.

      To be honest, I don’t blame MK’s for trashing Bibles and I don’t blame Muslims for hating Christians. When you look at all the things that have been done in Jesus’ name, it’s pretty defenseless.

      I wish more people would look at Jesus as you do and realise he was all about peace and the greatest moral teacher of all time. A righteous dude indeed and that’s even if you take religion out of the equation.

      • Roya
        July 20, 2012, 12:21 am

        If only Americans knew that an elected member of Israeli parliament ripped up and trashed a Bible…there would be some much needed rethinking happening about all of the tax dollars flowing to Israel.

      • Mooser
        July 20, 2012, 12:07 pm

        “When you look at all the things that have been done in Jesus’ name, it’s pretty defenseless.”

        Can’t not agree with that. Such a stance is indefensible!

    • Elliot
      July 19, 2012, 8:22 pm

      The implication of your joke and statement is that there is something in Christianity which is more radical and humanist than what you can find in Judaism.
      That’s plain wrong. All the stuff that Jesus was preaching, so were the Jews. You might need to look a bit further afield than the New Testament for that.
      And, yes, both religions have lots of other material that’s only fit for the recycling bin or landfill.

      • Dan Crowther
        July 19, 2012, 9:35 pm

        Elliot says:

        The implication of your joke and statement is that there is something in Christianity which is more radical and humanist than what you can find in Judaism.
        ——————

        By joke I assume you mean my recounting of an Akiva Orr interview? well here it is:
        link to youtube.com

        I wasn’t making any inferences at all as to the respective levels of “radical humanism” in christianity and judaism. I wasn’t making a “pro-christianity” argument at all, you did read the post above where the MK trashed a new testament and so on? So, here is one Jew trashing a new testament, and I referenced a story about another Jew actually reading it and converting to christianity. And that somehow offends you or something? Fine. I really don’t care.

      • tree
        July 20, 2012, 12:09 am

        Ah, Orr is talking about Brother Daniel.

        link to en.wikipedia.org

        Thanks for the link, Dan. Orr is a great storyteller. I hadn’t heard about Shalit and the national ID case. Orr’s description of Golda Meir making a speech to the Knesset was quite funny. Meir, speaking of Anne Shalit, “She’s already given up on so much, why can’t she give up on her conscience as well?” Classic crazy and symptomatic of the moral quagmire that is Israel.

      • tree
        July 20, 2012, 12:22 am

        I just watched Akiva Orr’s other video, here:

        link to youtube.com

        Interesting analysis of the reason behind the power of the religious parties in Israel, despite their minority status.

      • Elliot
        July 20, 2012, 8:57 am

        Dan, thanks for the clarification.
        The problem with Ben-Ari’s act of desecration isn’t that he challenged the teachings of another faith. Even if the New Testament had nothing to teach us, the desecration of the book by an adherent of another religion is inexcusable.
        I don’t care for arguments that justify Judaism either. “The Gifts of the Jews” and so on. We don’t ask indigenous tribes in the Amazon whether there is anything humanist or radical in their canon before deciding whether, or not, to desecrate their revered objects.

      • Dan Crowther
        July 20, 2012, 12:06 pm

        Great point Elliot.

        Yes, tree – Orr is a real force, love that guy.

      • Mooser
        July 20, 2012, 12:09 pm

        “All the stuff that Jesus was preaching, so were the Jews.”

        Sure, but nobody listens to me. Besides, Jesus had that long blonde hair and blue eyes (and what a build on that guy!). He just wowed the women. You get them, and the rest follow.

      • Dan Crowther
        July 20, 2012, 12:12 pm

        Don’t re-start the fire Moose.

      • Mooser
        July 20, 2012, 2:10 pm

        “Don’t re-start the fire Moose.”

        Would I burn down the forest I live in? You have no idea how much I restrain myself here. I moderate myself quite stringently. Unlike some people, I happen to think Phil Weiss adheres as closely as he can to what’s on the “about” page, and I wish him well. (oh crap, he’s done for now!)

      • Dan Crowther
        July 20, 2012, 2:52 pm

        Just saying – as someone (you) who wants his religion respected, maybe tone it down with the sarcastic descriptions of jesus and such, its obviously got some people riled up (as evidenced above) – im not a believer, so it doesnt offend me on a religious level, but you do make a point here often of insisting that others distinguish between judaism from the actions of jews, so to mock jesus and by extension, believing christians here, is somewhat hypocritical. Try a little tenderness, mooser my brother. :)

      • Citizen
        July 20, 2012, 3:14 pm

        Jesus only preached to Jews. Paul never said he was alive when Jesus was alive. Cunning fellow. Paul had a vision; at the time, lots of Jews were running around having visions, but Paul was not just another crackpot as he was also a good salesman; he wanted a bigger market. He took Ken and Barbi as models like Bernays later sold cigs via a chorus line of long-legged shiksas; Goebbels copied; now we have Captain Israel, and maybe, Alicia Silverstone (Scottish mom, Jewish dad)?

      • Citizen
        July 20, 2012, 3:27 pm

        Or Scarlett Johansson (Jewish mom, Danish dad)? Etc.
        I don’t really see shy Jews should complain about intermarriage, do you? Or Gentiles either. Look at their kids!

        Have a Xmas tree and a Menorah to light up things! But, sorry, I will stick with Gentile food over kosher food.

      • Mooser
        July 22, 2012, 6:48 pm

        “Just saying – as someone (you) who wants his religion respected”

        Yes sir, if there’s one thing plain about me, it’s how much respect I expect for the Jewish religion.
        And if it wasn’t for Jesus, would the highball glass ever have been invented? Back then, people used to drink from cupped hands, until the fate of one man changed the entire world. It’s an inspiring story.

      • Citizen
        July 22, 2012, 8:47 pm

        LOL, I just told Phil Maher the same thing. Phil does not have a religion but he says he’s a Jew. He’s always ridiculing the Christians, especially the Catholics–because his Dad was one, and he didn’t know he was half -Jewish until he was a teen-ager.

  2. Woody Tanaka
    July 19, 2012, 10:56 am

    Interesting that two of the three are insults to Christian belief. Ben Ari is a bigoted thug, and he insulted 1.5 billion people in the world and 85% of the country his shitty little state relies upon. If I were a Christian, though I would find the thug’s activities outrageous, but I would find ‘yahoo’s description of Jesus Christ as a mere “young prophet” to be a worse. Ben Ari with the venom of the snake he clearly is, but to a Christian, Jesus was not a prophet. A prophet is a messenger from God. To Christians, Jesus was God, incarnate. To call him a prophet is to say he was less than what he was, to the Christians.

    • FreddyV
      July 19, 2012, 12:58 pm

      ‘To call him a prophet is to say he was less than what he was, to the Christians.’

      Yes, but Bibi was playing to the crowd. The crowd he was playing to, incidentally believe that 2/3rds (or all but the ‘144,000’, depending on the theology) of the people of Israel will be wiped out and the remainer will convert to Christianity.

      What Bibi was really saying was ‘OK you antisemitic pricks, I’ll tell you what you want to hear and you keep on voting pro Israel and lobbying and sending your cash over so we can keep stealing.’

      This is the irony of the whole thing. Israel treat US Christians as useful idiots and Christians ‘love’ them so much they want to see them wiped out.

      And they both know what the other is thinking. It really is beyond incredible.

      • Ranjit Suresh
        July 19, 2012, 1:37 pm

        Considering that the wiping out is an eschatological fantasy while the political implications of millions of Americans being turned into useful idiots for a foreign nation are very real, I would say that one side definitely has the upper hand in this relationship. And that side isn’t U.S. Christians, who have sold their Christian brethren in the Holy Land out for thirty pieces of silver.

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 19, 2012, 2:48 pm

        FreddyV,

        I have to say that I disagree with the common refrain that the US Christians love for and support of israel is based on eschatology. I think the attraction is an Old Testament deal, not a New Testament one.

      • FreddyV
        July 19, 2012, 6:49 pm

        Woody, on reflection I would agree to a point. Most Christians who follow Dispensationalism are largely attracted to the Bible being ‘alive’ in the world today and evidenced in the birth of Israel in 1948, and it’s people which they conflate with the ancient Hebrews.

        Whilst many theologians hoped for a Christian awakening amongst the Jewish people, the whole idea of a nation state didn’t really exist in Christian theology prior to Dispensationalism. The Eschatology isn’t really discussed, but it’s in essence antisemitic. Most followers of Dispensationalism take their cues from their pastors and don’t actually take the trouble to check it out for themselves. I was one of those people. When I realised what the theology had in store for the Jews, I questioned it and was told the annihilation expected was ‘The Time Of Jacob’s Trouble’. Nothing like using a handy Biblical buzzword to dismiss genocide eh?

        So yes, I’d agree with you. I think if many Christians followed through on their theology to the end conclusion, they’d run a mile.

      • Mooser
        July 22, 2012, 6:53 pm

        “So yes, I’d agree with you. I think if many Christians followed through on their theology to the end conclusion, they’d run a mile.”

        Well, if every one of us filled the unfogiving moment with sixty seconds worth of distance run, our digestion would be better, and what-is-more we’d be a man, my son!
        Not sure about the “digestion” part, but I was too lazy to Google “Kipling’s If”.

    • Stephen Shenfield
      July 19, 2012, 4:26 pm

      Yes, but it’s a definite advance on the Talmudic view that Jesus is being boiled in excrement in hell. Moslems also recognize Jesus as a prophet. When I was young, we were taught (I recall the rabbi’s wife saying this) that Jesus was a great teacher and we respect him as such, only we don’t think he was the son of God. Jesus taught in the tradition of Hillel: some of the stories about him are identical to stories about Hillel (e.g., the one about summarizing the Law while standing on one foot). And one of the Gospels also treats Jesus as no more than human. So there’s very little separating Judaism from Christianity. Of course, if you want a fight any trifle will serve as a pretext.

      • Mooser
        July 20, 2012, 2:13 pm

        “Talmudic view that Jesus is being boiled in excrement in hell.”

        There’s the proof Jews don’t go to hell!! If they did, don’t you think they would serve kosher food?

    • ColinWright
      July 19, 2012, 7:04 pm

      ‘…to a Christian, Jesus was not a prophet. A prophet is a messenger from God. To Christians, Jesus was God, incarnate. To call him a prophet is to say he was less than what he was, to the Christians…”

      Somewhat ironically, that is the Muslim view, though. I think the traditional Jewish view wanders between seeing Jesus as a lunatic and seeing him as a charlatan.

    • Mooser
      July 20, 2012, 12:13 pm

      “Ben Ari is a bigoted thug, and he insulted 1.5 billion people in the world and 85% of the country his shitty little state relies upon.”

      Oh come on, they love it! Look, they’re Christians, right? And if there aren’t enough crosses to bear, you can’t blame a Jew for becoming a carpenter. Hey, what could be more Christian than being crusicified by the invisible hand of the free market?

  3. Chu
    July 19, 2012, 10:57 am

    If say, NY Senator Kirsten Gilibrand tore up the Old Testament and said Jews poisoned the wells of Christians for centuries, I somehow think it would get a lot of media coverage in the United States.
    And now the AJC wants him censured. And Regev has made a statement against his actions.

    But does this type of behavior exhibited by Ben Ari, make the Hagees (and other Christian Zionists) of America want to contribute more money toward Israel? Or do they feel hurt?

    • American
      July 19, 2012, 12:51 pm

      I don’t thing the Hagee types care about anything except keeping the money rolling in from their sheep like followers.

    • FreddyV
      July 19, 2012, 1:02 pm

      ‘But does this type of behavior exhibited by Ben Ari, make the Hagees (and other Christian Zionists) of America want to contribute more money toward Israel? Or do they feel hurt?’

      They won’t say anything. They can’t. They believe if you bless Israel, you’ll be blessed, but if you curse Israel, you’ll be cursed. In a CZ’s mind, it’s forbidden to condemn Israel or any Israeli for fear of Divine curse. Why do you think Israel has been above the law for so long?

      • Chu
        July 19, 2012, 1:51 pm

        It may help if some philanthropists sponsored a group of Christian Zionists to go and partake in a Palestinian ‘green olive’ tour or something similar, where they can be first hand witness to the prison camp called ‘Gaza’ and soon to be eradicated West Bank.
        It may have an impact.

        But as long as the gate is closed they will continue to chew the local cud that is administered every Sunday morning. But do Christian Zionists feel that Israelis are sick people that need to be converted? There must be some pity for them, which may cause them to turn the other cheek, while Israel’s war crimes continue.

  4. lysias
    July 19, 2012, 11:00 am

    There seems to be a blackout on the story of the attempted assassination of Hillary Clinton in Israel yesterday. You’d think the story would be reported, even if only to shoot it down, if it is false. Breaking/Confirmed: Sec Clinton Assassination Attempt in Israel (updated):

    Israeli radio and Reuters broke the story then went mysteriously silent, an assassination attempt inside Israel, on Secretary of State Clinton.

    Soon afterward, Iran’s national network, al Alam went public with a translated version which is being boycotted by news services.

    . . .

    The real story as we have been able to learn is this; About 16 hours ago, Secretary Clintons convoy, traveling from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, was attacked. There would have been a minimum of 3 to 5 vehicles, with Clinton probably traveling in a bulletproofed Chevy Tahoe or Israel built Toyota Land Cruiser.

    . . .

    A white Citroen DS, a French car built (assembly plant in Israel) drove alongside the convoy and opened up on Clinton’s vehicle with automatic weapons fire.

    Normal security procedures should have prevented any vehicle on open regions from coming within 200 meters of Clinton. Additionally, the Secretary of State would have traveled with Apache helicopter air support above while on open highway.

    • lysias
      July 19, 2012, 11:41 am

      And a diary on this alleged assassination attempt by Daily Kos front-page diarist Jed Lewison appears to have been censored by Daily Kos. Doing a Google search for stories with “hillary assassination israel” that appear on the Daily Kos site, link to google.com…18276.23338.0.23598.22.19.0.0.0.3.1041.3171.6j10j1j1j7-1.19.0…0.0…1c._-wQMlKdAog&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=f70d779f6f2aed86&biw=1024&bih=567 , this was my first result:

      Daily Kos: Hillary Clinton attacked in Israel
      http://www.dailykos.com/…/-Hillary-Clinton-attacked-in-Israel
      You +1’d this publicly. Undo

      Jed Lewison

      by Jed Lewison – in 328 Google+ circles – More by Jed Lewison
      12 hours ago – It was reported once in Israel and then nothing. I googled ‘Hillary Clinton assassination’ and got a number of hits. The best coverage seems to …

      However, when I followed the link to the Daily Kos story, this is what I got:

      Error!

      The error was:
      You do not have permission to view this diary.

      Hostname: web2.dailykos.com

      Time: 2012-07-19T15:37:09

      If this message does not make sense to you, please copy and paste the above, along with a description of what you were doing before the error, and submit it to the helpdesk for assistance.

      • Mooser
        July 20, 2012, 12:17 pm

        I hear the alleged assassination attempters were hoping the removal of Hilary would clear the way for Monica Lewinsky to assume her rightful place.

  5. Citizen
    July 19, 2012, 11:05 am

    I’d like to see chief Christian Zionist Hagee and MK Michael Ben Ari locked in a stalled elevator together that was monitored by remote camera. Hagee would have in his cell phone a video of Ari’s literally trashing the New Testament as an abomination, a video he had just watched before he stepped into the elevator. Joe Lieberman could over-narrate the resulting interaction, and Phil or Adam could super over-narrative Lieberman.

    • Chu
      July 19, 2012, 11:45 am

      It would be great if hackers could access the mega video screen of Hagee’s mega church and show the video of Ben Ari tearing up the Christian bible right before they join in prayer.

      • Citizen
        July 19, 2012, 12:08 pm

        Yes, Chu, I agree; it would be like the original video introducing the MAC!

  6. seanmcbride
    July 19, 2012, 11:39 am

    MK Michael Ben Ari (National Union), a member of the Israeli parliament:

    “This abominable book (the New Testament) galvanized the murder of millions of Jews during the Inquisition and during auto da fe instances,” Ben Ari said adding that “Sending the book to MK’s is a provocation. There is no doubt that this book and all it represents belongs in the garbage can of history.”

    A leading Israeli government official is declaring that Christianity and Christians should be eradicated from the world — blotted out from the book of life. Would that be a fair paraphrase?

    Perhaps hophmi, who wrote — “I know of no strain of anti-gentilism amongst Jews” — would care to comment and finally respond to the other items that were brought to his attention here:

    link to mondoweiss.net

    and here:

    link to mondoweiss.net

    How deeply do these attitudes run in Israeli society and are they ideologically grounded in the material that was analyzed in these two books?

    1. book; Israel Shahak; 1994; Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years; Pluto Press

    2. book; Israel Shahak, Norton Mervinsky; 1999; Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel; Pluto Press

    One is also reminded of numerous incidents of spitting on Christians by religious Jews in Israel, which have been reported on many times in the Israeli press but systematically censored in the American mainstream media.

    Sometimes one gets the impression that the number one item on the agenda of the American mainstream media is to protect Israelis from the consequences of their own words and actions and to hustle Americans into an endless succession of self-destructive wars on behalf of Israel. From which one must rationally deduce that many powerful owners and controllers of the mainstream media are emotional pro-Israel activists and militants, no doubt in the general ideological and cultural mold of Haim Saban and Sheldon Adelson.

    • American
      July 19, 2012, 1:03 pm

      I don’t care about religious disputes and this guy is only one individual of which the US has some similar….like the guy who burned the Koran and the Islam dennouncers like Michele Buachman and others.
      What I think outburst like this say, besides the fact that there are a lot of crazy individuals,—–is that by coddling Israel and therefore Jews a lot of them feel ‘entitled’ to spew venom on anything/one not Jewish.

      • seafoid
        July 19, 2012, 4:00 pm

        The funny thing , American, is that while he tears up the New Testament his economy is kept going by the “Xtians” who buy 95% of Israel’s exports. Take away goy money and Israel is finished. It is a pantomime.

  7. Chu
    July 19, 2012, 11:46 am

    Was my comment to Crowther deleted because I reference the book of Levites?
    Come on… grow up.

    • Dan Crowther
      July 19, 2012, 12:21 pm

      Yeah, whats the deal? Let my people go!

    • Mooser
      July 20, 2012, 12:20 pm

      “the book of Levites?”

      That’s the book with all the patterns for the genes, right? Many people do not know that the button-front genes originate because the ancient Israelites had no need for zippers. Nope, they took care of that!

    • Eva Smagacz
      July 20, 2012, 12:25 pm

      Ok, now I am reading up on a book of Levites

      • Mooser
        July 20, 2012, 2:16 pm

        You’ll need a heavy-duty machine, Eva. Good denim is tough, and thick.
        I mostly wear “chinos” these days.

  8. seanmcbride
    July 19, 2012, 12:37 pm

    You know, when taking into account MK Michael Ben Ari’s recent attack on Christianity (and hophmi’s as well in recent comments here), one sometimes wonders if Likud Zionists imagine themselves to be locked in a three-front apocalyptic war with Muslims worldwide, Christians worldwide and the entire secular Enlightenment. So many enemies! We are back in the Old Testament territory of Israel and “the chosen people” vs. “the nations” — pretty much the whole damned world.

    BEGIN ARTICLE
    AUTHOR Dr. Daud Abdullah
    TITLE Israel ignite the tinderbox of religious conflict
    PUBLICATION Middle East Monitor
    DATE July 19, 2012
    BEGIN QUOTE
    Has the struggle for occupied Jerusalem finally revealed its religious character? The recent claim by Israel’s Attorney General, Yehuda Weinstein, that Al-Asqa Mosque is part of Israeli territory has drawn unprecedented condemnation from across the Islamic world. His assertion that Islam’s third holiest mosque should be subject to Israeli law, including antiquities laws and laws regarding building and planning was seen as an obscene provocation. This twist marks a dangerous escalation by the Netanyahu government in an atmosphere already charged with rage and tension.

    Weinstein’s inflammatory statement is significant because it came from the nerve centre of the Israeli establishment. It complements similar views advocated not only by the Prime Minister, but also by members of parliament. All three organs of the state – legislative, executive and judiciary – are now in full accord on the question of Al-Aqsa. All are driven by the same motivation and objective, which is to complete the Judaisation of Jerusalem.
    END QUOTE
    END ARTICLE

    And to pick up another thread: this agenda is perfectly aligned with the Zionist program that was outlined by Avraham Stern and Lehi (the Stern Gang) before the founding of Israel.

  9. radii
    July 19, 2012, 1:36 pm

    what about Netanyahu stealing nuclear triggers from the U.S. ??
    Netanyahu steals U.S. nuclear triggers
    unless I missed it I’ve seen nothing about this huge story anywhere but on the internet
    (it is an act of espionage punishable by death)

    • ColinWright
      July 19, 2012, 3:16 pm

      That (the nuclear triggers story) did get smothered in the cradle, didn’t it?

      It really is odd.

  10. ColinWright
    July 19, 2012, 3:13 pm

    “…You are Bible believers. You know that ever since God gave the land of Israel to the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the prophets rallied to the protection of Israel. And even when a young Galilean Jew [applause breaks out], that young prophet preached peace, and reminded us that we have one common destiny.”…”

    Umm…not exactly. In the New Testament, Jesus says that in killing him, the Jews will be forfeiting their claim to the Holy Land.

    • Ranjit Suresh
      July 19, 2012, 4:55 pm

      They’ve basically abrogated the basic teachings of Pauline Christianity.

      Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

      Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

      Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

      • yonah fredman
        July 20, 2012, 8:51 am

        ranjit- Although the Orthodox disdain both Jesus and Paul, I belong to those who respect Jesus and disdain Paul. (Read Paul on circumcision and you will find one possible definition for self hating Jew, although the theory that Paul was not a Jew, is one which appeals to me.) As far as the quote from Matthew, any quote of Jesus that came after he died on the cross is dubious and you are right to label it Pauline Christianity.

      • Ranjit Suresh
        July 20, 2012, 11:01 am

        I got it. So you think Jesus meant Christianity to be a tiny sect in the Levant and for Europe to remain shrouded in paganism for eternity. And for universalism, human rights, and the notion of all men as brothers to be stillborn.

        I wish I could say I respect your view on the matter. But I don’t. And I daresay Paul wasn’t a liar as you appear to suggest.

      • yonah fredman
        July 20, 2012, 12:07 pm

        Ranjit- The desirability of the spread of monotheism (even in its diluted Christian version with its vestiges of polytheism) and the spread of the content of the Hebrew Bible requires a more positive attitude towards Paul than I enunciated in my first statement. Nonetheless there are negative aspects to Christianity and certainly to Christian history after Constantine and it is a convenient tool of dividing responsibility to attribute all the good to Jesus and all the not so good to Paul.

        I am not sure precisely what Jesus claimed to be and I daresay he wasn’t really sure who he was either. (“Who do they say I am?” indicates an inordinate interest in what others had to say about him because he was not sure precisely who he was.) I am even less sure what Paul claimed Jesus to be. The streak of negativity in much of Paul’s words towards the Jews is understandable given the conflicts between Paul and the Jerusalem followers of Jesus and also between Paul and the Jews in the various corners of the Empire. Nonetheless there is a streak of negativity there. There is a streak of negativity in the New Testament towards the Jews and it is more extreme in Matthew, Mark and John, than it is in Luke.

        So here we are approximately 2000 years later and the Jews are still around (though a small group with power issues) and the Christians are the reigning religion (although it might be more accurate to call those in power post Christians). And those of us who hold our books precious do not smile when others criticize. Nonetheless we need to learn to cooperate. Although the first step must be honesty and that is what I am trying to be: honest about my opinions.

      • Citizen
        July 20, 2012, 12:15 pm

        yohan, you mean Saul aka St Paul? The guy who was busy on the road to Damascus hunting down fellow jews for the Sahhedrin when he converted to christianity upon seeing the light?

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 20, 2012, 12:20 pm

        “…Europe to remain shrouded in paganism for eternity.”

        Why would you consider paganism a shroud? The pagans I know are some of the most open and humane people I know.

        “And for universalism, human rights, and the notion of all men as brothers to be stillborn.”

        Why do you presuppose that these things would not exist without Christianity? Pre-Christian European civilizations contains seeds from which all of these things might grow, and there are legitimate arguments to assert that Christianity inhibited the growth of these things in Europe.

        It’s a pretty big and false logical leap to say because these things followed Christianity, that they were caused by Christianity or that Christianity was necessary for them to develop.

      • Mooser
        July 20, 2012, 12:23 pm

        “Although the Orthodox disdain both Jesus and Paul, I belong to those who respect Jesus and disdain Paul”

        Well, I just hope Jesus doesn’t over-do the celebrations, and I’ll have Paul put on suicide watch, right away. No point in taking chances.

      • seanmcbride
        July 20, 2012, 12:38 pm

        That made me laugh out loud. :)

      • AllenBee
        July 20, 2012, 1:21 pm

        What’s so great about monotheism?

        Roger Williams argued that the “first tablet,” or the first four commandments, about man’s duties to god,

        1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

        2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

        3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

        4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

        should be eliminated from the purview of the state.

        That’s absolutely the only position that could be contemplated under the 3rd Amendment:

        Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

        Williams argued that the six remaining commandments, regarding man’s obligations to his fellow man [using male pronouns in an inclusive fashion] were universal, or ‘natural law’ obligations.

        On The Cyrus Cylinder, the Persian King Cyrus acknowledges the Sumerian god Marduk who inspired and strengthened him to guarantee the rights of all other peoples in the realm to return to their holy places and worship each their own god/gods/goddesses.

      • Mooser
        July 22, 2012, 7:01 pm

        “That made me laugh out loud. :)

        Sean, as I have iterated and iterated, it’s my intent to bring a smile to the careworn lips, a sparkle to the dulled eyes of high anxiety without ever descending to the type material which would bring a blush of shame to the maidenly cheek. And G-d will know how well I’ve succeeded, even if The Moderators don’t.

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 23, 2012, 1:01 am

        “What’s so great about monotheism?”

        Don’t ask me. I’ve no use for it. In fact, I find the invention of monotheism one of the 10 worst ideas ever. (And maybe top 5)

      • Mooser
        July 20, 2012, 2:18 pm

        “Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:”

        Nonsense! Nick gives, frankly, better odds, and you get longer to pay up when you lose.

      • Mooser
        July 22, 2012, 7:02 pm

        Oh c’mon, people! That isn’t every bit as good as “Jesus Saves, Moses invests”?

    • yonah fredman
      July 19, 2012, 7:32 pm

      Colin Wright- We’ll need chapter and verse on the “in killing him the Jews will be forfeiting their claim to the Holy Land”, plus the interpreter of the verse, because those words are not in the New Testament that I read, although I assume you’ve read it more carefully than me.

      • Ranjit Suresh
        July 19, 2012, 9:58 pm

        See the above. There are contradictory verses, but then there are clear examples such as the above verses. “No difference between the Jew and the Greek” kind of puts a damper on any special claims to the Holy Land. At best we can say the evidence is mixed on this point, contrary to the Christian Zionist sell-outs.

      • ColinWright
        July 19, 2012, 10:51 pm

        Matthew 21:33-41, Mark 12:1-9, Luke 20:9-16

      • Mooser
        July 22, 2012, 7:04 pm

        “We’ll need chapter and verse on the “in killing him the Jews will be forfeiting their claim to the Holy Land”,

        Oh c’mon yonah, you must know better than that! All we need is for people to think that’s what it says. I mean, really, after all the religious land-deed doubletalk the Zionists pulled off, you should know how it’s done. And you know how easy it is, too.

  11. W.Jones
    July 20, 2012, 9:53 am

    “And even when a young Galilean Jew, that young prophet preached peace, and reminded us that we have one common destiny.”
    When the prophet preached peace and reminded us of the common destiny, then what happened?

    • Mooser
      July 20, 2012, 12:26 pm

      “When the prophet preached peace and reminded us of the common destiny, then what happened?”

      They sat around and drank some more wine, but some of the girls got mad and left when they found out exactly what a “common destiny” entailed. But some were too drunk to care so it turned out all right. And I’d hardly call that “common”, unless of course, you believe what you read in the Book of Playboy Forum.

  12. ColinWright
    July 22, 2012, 3:24 am

    Yawn.

    I say: “Umm…not exactly. In the New Testament, Jesus says that in killing him, the Jews will be forfeiting their claim to the Holy Land.”

    yonah challenges: “Colin Wright- We’ll need chapter and verse on the “in killing him the Jews will be forfeiting their claim to the Holy Land”, plus the interpreter of the verse, because those words are not in the New Testament that I read, although I assume you’ve read it more carefully than me.”

    I fire back: “Matthew 21:33-41, Mark 12:1-9, Luke 20:9-16″

    That was on July 19th. Since then, nothing.

    At a guess, we could repeat this exact same exchange a year from now.

    • Mooser
      July 22, 2012, 7:07 pm

      “At a guess, we could repeat this exact same exchange a year from now.”

      Have you no knowledge of the effecacy of Ziocaine amnesia syndrome? yonah (“Wondering Jew” actually) will be ready for another go-round in less than a week.

    • yonah fredman
      July 22, 2012, 9:30 pm

      Colin Wright- I read the passages and indeed the easiest interpretation is to consider the vineyard to be taken away from those who kill the vineyard owner’s son. I told you I assume you’ve read the new testament more carefully than me. So while we’re here, which is the least Jew hating of the four gospels and which are the most Jew hating of the four gospels? And of what use is Jewish Christian dialogue when certain texts are in fact quite virulent in their Jew hatred? (Granted that the Talmud is also anti Gentile, but usually those involved in Jewish Christian dialogue are willing to consider those texts as historical reflections of an oppressed situation and to discount them as having true validity. Are Christian dialoguers willing to discount the anti Jewish verses of the New Testament?)

      • Woody Tanaka
        July 23, 2012, 12:08 am

        yonah fredman,

        What you deem to be “Jew hatred” is, to the Christian, simply a history of how their religion separated from yours and is the content of what separated the two. The story of their religion is that God was made man, as promised to the Jews, and they denied him, rejected him and caused him to be crucified. This led to a split in the Jewish community whereby those who followed Jesus were ostracized and rejected and cast out. There is no way around that. This history is central to the formation of Christianity and to some of the theology of Christianity. It doesn’t mean that Christians must hate Jews; far from it. It simply means that part of Christian history and theology consists in drawing distinctions between it and the aspects of Judaism which it rejected.

        “Are Christian dialoguers willing to discount the anti Jewish verses of the New Testament?”

        Some Christians will tweak the theology, point to Old Testament statements as a basis for believing that the Jews retain a special place in God’s scheme of things; most Christians do not now hold that Jews everywhere and for all time are responsible for Christ’s death (the “may his blood be on us and our children” nonsense); a lot simply ignore the theological implications of this because it does not fit in with what their moral sense tells them; a lot draw a distinction in their minds between the Jews of the first Century A.D. and the Jews of today.

        If you’re looking for them to say, “those portions of the Holy Scripture which Jews find offensive are no longer considered part of the Bible,” then you are wasting your time. Would you be willing to have your religion reject those parts about the Land of Israel being promised to the Jews because that upsets a lot of Arab Christians and Muslims?

      • ColinWright
        July 23, 2012, 12:42 am

        Are we discussing the anti-semitism of the New Testament or are we discussing the thesis that Jesus said the Jews would lose their right to the Holy Land if they killed him? The latter is all that interests me.

        Bear in mind that I am not a Christian. You can flame Christianity all you like as far as I’m concerned. Indeed, considering the probable effects, I’d encourage you to do so, and as loudly and as often as possible.

        However, pick some Christian forums. And make sure they understand you support Israel.

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