Mourners at funeral of slain Egyptian border police (photo:Gianluigi Guercia /AFP/Getty Images)
The deadly attack on Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai last Sunday evening, where masked gunmen in Bedouin clothing killed 16 border guards, hijacked two armored vehicles and attacked an Israeli border post threaten an already tense ‘peace’ along Egypt’s border with Israel and Gaza. But the fallout from the attack is far reaching ripping open a scab of animosity within Egyptian society which was on full display at the funeral for the slain soldiers in Cairo yesterday where blame, anger and grief erupted.
Much of the ill will is directed at Islamist President Mohamed Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood, the nation’s dominant political party. Many secular Egyptians and military personnel are suspicious of Morsi’s Islamist leanings and his overtures to Hamas……Morsi surprised Egyptians by not attending the funeral. Morsi’s office said he did not attend because he did not want to present “obstacles” to the public’s mourning.
Supporters of Morsi’s rival in the presidential election, Ahmed Shafik, a former air force commander, have called for Egyptians to rise up against the Brotherhood and Morsi on that date.
Such sentiment underscores the divide between Islamists and the military, which still holds enormous political power and has limited the president’s authority.
Talk show host Tawfik Okasha, who has been labeled as Egypt’s Glenn Beck, has endorsed the protests against the Islamists. Okasha and many of his supporters opposed the uprising last year that toppled Hosni Mubarak and his police state.
Like many young activists, Heba Mahfouz Farouk said she was saddened by the unrest around the funeral because the “deaths of the Egyptian soldiers are being politicized.”
Many Egyptians believe the Sinai attack could have been averted by tighter security and better military planning.
“How can people who are supposed to be protecting the borders of a country not be properly trained or equipped with weapons to defend themselves? It’s not clear, something is wrong,” Hussein said.
Like many Egyptians, she hoped that the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel would be amended so that more Egyptian troops could be deployed to the region.
The attack comes only a week after Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniya made a rare visit to Egypt to meet with Egyptian President Mohammad Morsi to discuss easing travel restrictions on Gaza imposed by Israel’s siege, restrictions respected by Mubarak for years. That meeting, coupled with Morsi meeting both Hamas chief Khaled Meshaal and Palestinian President Abbas in July , resulted in the opening the Rafah border for 12 hrs a day and increasing the daily limit on passengers from Gaza to 1,500.
By opening the border Morsi was following through on a campaign promise he made during the run up to Egypt’s hotly contested election. With the advent of the Arab Spring a number of Egyptian revolutionary groups demanded the complete opening of the Rafah crossing to all forms of traffic, including commercial. During his campaign Morsi stated that “the time has come to open the Rafah crossing to traffic 24 hours a day and all year round.”
Providing only days of relief, once again, Rafah’s border was shut down after Sunday’s attack, which was devastating news to Palestinians.
Musa Abu Marzouk, a senior Hamas official, called the decision “collective punishment.”
Hamas deployed hundreds of policemen along the border with Egypt to prevent terrorists from infiltrating into the Gaza Strip from Sinai, Gamal Jarrah, a top Hamas security commander announced.
He said the Hamas government had also issued orders to close down all the underground tunnels along the border and to do their utmost to help reveal the identity of the attackers.
The Hamas government and some Palestinian groups hinted at Israeli involvement in the attack with the aim of driving a wedge between the Palestinians and Egypt.
Hamas security officials insisted that none of the terrorists who carried out the Sinai attack had come from the Gaza Strip. However, the officials did not say who they believed was behind it.
A spokesman for the Hamas government claimed the attack was an Israeli “attempt to tamper with Egyptian security and drive a wedge between the Egyptians and the residents of the Gaza Strip.”
…..
Tarek Zumar, a spokesman for the group, claimed that Israel was behind all recent terror attacks against the Egyptians “because it wanted to make changes along its border with Egypt.”
The Muslim Brotherhood has blamed Mossad for the attack.
The group said on its website on Monday: “This crime can be attributed to the Mossad, which has been seeking to abort the revolution since its inception and the proof of this is that it gave instructions to its zionist citizens in Sinai to depart immediately a few days ago.”
“(It) also draws our attention to the fact that our forces in Sinai are not enough to protect it and our borders, which makes it imperative to review clauses in the signed agreement between us and the zionist entity,” the group said.
President Mohamed Morsi has pledged to take full control and many feel his ability to secure the Sinai is a test of his credibility. Accordingly, he has already sacked the intelligence chief as well as the governor of Northern Sinai and replaced the commander of the military police. This morning Egyptian aircraft bombed targets near the Rafah border as Egyptians troops raided villages in a crackdown.
BBC:
The Egyptian military says it has launched missile strikes from helicopters against suspected Islamist militants in the Sinai peninsula.
Military spokesmen said the initial operation had been a “success” and that it was ongoing.
Twenty people were killed in the village of Touma, according to military officials in Sinai, while the Sheikh Zuwaid area to the west was also hit.
….
The latest army operation came hours after security checkpoints were allegedly attacked by gunmen in the town of al-Arish, leaving a number of people injured.
This is the first time Egypt has fired missiles in Sinai since the 1973 war with Israel, when it attempted to recapture the Sinai peninsula, security officials told Associated Press.
Egyptian military presence in Sinai is limited and requires Israeli approval under the terms of the 1979 peace treaty between the nations which returned Sinai to Egyptian control.
btw, after the MB posted on it’s website “the proof of this is that it gave instructions to its zionist citizens in Sinai to depart immediately a few days ago” israel released the information “Israel had reports of impending attack from Egypt”
link to news.yahoo.com
which helps explains how, if in fact israelis did depart from the sinai a few days before the attack, they were probably warned to leave.
it does seem odd this information wasn’t released with the first reports.
furthermore, the WSJ link provided referencing morsi ‘sacking the intelligence chief’ said the ex intelligence chief said he too knew of the warning:
so that explains why he was fired.
This little warning came a few days ago too:
link to haaretz.com
interesting, thanks. that was from 6 days ago.
Cui bono?
Ahram Online: Egypt destroying tunnels to Gaza, eyewitnesses say: The Rafah border is now the target of Egypt’s military following Sunday’s Sinai attacks blamed on assailants entering from Gaza, local residents tell Ahram Online:
What do the tunnels have to do with an attack allegedly made by Sinai Bedouins?
Good summary, thanks. The attack was very precisely aimed at that nexus of Israel, Egypt and Hamas, clearly intended to undermine all three and throw them into conflict. Time will tell whether it succeeds or if it backfires and encourages them to work together. Sadly, I’m not especially hopeful. Air raids certainly won’t accomplish anything but stirring up more anger.
Richard Silverstein is reporting that U.S. Marines have arrived in southern Israel for exercises with their IDF counterparts.
The U.S. Army has a radar facility under construction at Dimona in the Negev. One wonders whether there are already U.S. Army soldiers there.
Certainly there are already US soldiers in Israel. They’ve been there for years:
link to businessinsider.com
That Business Insider article is precisely about the U.S. Army radar facility at Dimona. Dimona being in the Negev. Interesting to read that the troops have already been there for a few years.
I mentioned the places I did (southern Israel, Dimona) precisely because they would be near the Israeli border with Sinai.
I would speculate that the exercise the U.S. Marines have now arrived for is the one that just a little over a month ago was expected to occur “around October or November”.
Is that good or bad?
Or perhaps the question should be
good and/or bad for whom?
lysias, i translated the link richard linked to. it’s about all the soldiers throwing up and getting diarreah. something about contaminated food. yuk.
Where in Israel is the exercise taking place? Does the article at the link say?
Good job on your report Annie.
I saw Secretary Clinton on TV, referring to the Egyptian president as “Morissey”. Does that help in understanding the situation?
Egypt’s intelligence head admitted Tuesday that he received prior warnings of Sunday’s deadly attack on a border police station in Sinai, but did not believe such an event could take place during Ramadan.
Murad Muwafi said Israeli warnings of the deadly border attack were ignored because authorities couldn’t fathom that Muslims would kill each other during the Ramadan fast, the Turkish Anadolu news agency reported.
“Yes, we had detailed information about the attack, but we never imagined that a Muslim would kill a Muslim on the hour of breaking the fast in Ramadan,” Mowafi said following a meeting with Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi on Tuesday.
On Sunday, some 35 gunman stormed an Egyptian border police station in Rafah, killing 16 policemen. A number of terrorists then commandeered two vehicles and tried to break through the border into Israel, where they were killed by Israeli forces near Kerem Shalom.
The gunmen launched their assault on the Egyptian border guards as they were beginning the traditional feast at the end of a day of fasting during the month of Ramadan.
Israel said it knew of the impending attack and warned Cairo of such. On Thursday, Israel also warned its citizens to leave Sinai.
However Mowafi insisted that Egyptian forces have the upper hand in Sinai.
“This incident should never raise any questions regarding the efficiency of the security forces in Sinai and their alertness,” Mowafi said according to the report.
vivarto, please do not copy verbatim from news articles without either linking or sourcing the content.
link to timesofisrael.com
also, note my first comment in the thread, that explains why he was fired.
also, the framing of ‘admitted’ assumes there’s truth in it, which in my mind is questionable. should read ‘alleged’.
Good point about the links.
Will do from now on.
>> Egypt’s intelligence head admitted Tuesday that he received prior warnings of Sunday’s deadly attack on a border police station in Sinai, but did not believe such an event could take place during Ramadan.
>> Murad Muwafi said Israeli warnings of the deadly border attack were ignored because authorities couldn’t fathom that Muslims would kill each other during the Ramadan fast …
>> “Yes, we had detailed information about the attack, but we never imagined that a Muslim would kill a Muslim on the hour of breaking the fast in Ramadan,” Mowafi said …
And this moron is “Egypt’s intelligence head”?! Holy f*cking stupid! 8-o
The point is that leadership of the Egyptian army, and especially with the new Muslim Brotherhood government, is not eager to appear as if they are cooperating with Israel.
They have a deep seated enmity against Israel, consider the peace agreement disadvantageous to them (as it limits their armed forces in Sinai) and would like to dissolve it. They have been deliberately ignoring the anti-Israeli terrorist in Sinai. They were hoping that after several devastating attacks on Israel, they will be able to pressure Israel to increase their military strength in Sinai, ostensibly to control the terrorists. They never expected that the terrorists would attack them!!!
In short:
They thought that the terrorist would only attack Israelis.
That’s why they did not react to the Israeli warning.
leadership of the Egyptian army, …. is not eager to appear as if they are cooperating with Israel.
i think after years of mubarak the cat’s out of the bag on the military leadership in egypt, don’t you?
Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean.
>> They thought that the terrorist would only attack Israelis.
>> That’s why they did not react to the Israeli warning.
Well, that’s a hell of an unsubstantiated hypothesis, but it doesn’t change my assessment of the stupidity of an “intelligence head” who lets a personal bias or agenda get in the way of disregarding seemingly solid intelligence and, thereby, endangering citizens of the country he is supposed to be working to protect.
And if his inaction was, in fact, based on his belief that Israelis but not Egyptians would be injured by these armed thugs, then he’s an immoral asshole as well as a complete idiot.
…we never imagined that a Muslim would kill a Muslim on the hour of breaking the fast in Ramadan
Perhaps they were not Muslims, anyone can dress as a Bedouin and be taken for one at a distance. The only nation benefiting from this is Israel surely?
…as a matter of fact there are numerous times Jews have been attacked on their holy days, from Titus after Passover in 70 to Yom Kippur in 1973. Your enemy’s Holy Day is an unlocked safe.
where masked gunmen in Bedouin clothing killed 16 border guards, hijacked two armored vehicles and attacked an Israeli border post threaten an already tense ‘peace’ along Egypt’s border with Israel and Gaza.
Bedouin killers? Oh…please. Who believes this shit?
EDIT: I’ve spent time among the Bedouin. This does not pass my smell test, not by a long shot.
i didn’t write they were bedouin killers, i wrote they were in bedouin clothing. i also quoted, and linked to the article stating they were in bedouin costumes.
“Bedouin costumes”.
Yeah “costumes” – like the ones Bob Hope wore in his crappy Arabphobic movies.
wasn’t dissing you, annie. just expressing ennui with the press reports.
EDIT: I liked the hijacked two armored vehicles bit especially. They spend their days on camels or on foot but can mount an armored vehicle in no time flat with its arcane standard 10+ gear shift and ferry it away. And I’m Alexander of Rumania.
no prob MRW, i’ve always been appreciative of the support you’ve continually afforded me. just wanted to reassert my phrasing in case there was any misunderstanding wrt my framing.
“On Sunday, some 35 gunman stormed an Egyptian border police station in Rafah, killing 16 policemen. A number of terrorists then commandeered two vehicles and tried to break through the border into Israel, where they were killed by Israeli forces near Kerem Shalom”
I can’t make any sense out of this attack. What would have been the goal or point of 35 gunmen (of whatever orgin ) breaking thru the border into Israel? Once in what would they hope to do?
And making it a big attention getter and incident by killing Egyptian border police?
from my perspective the most glaring immediate repercussion is how it slammed shut the border. plus there’s this:
link to reuters.com
as i was researching the origin of the quote ““Yes, we had detailed information about the attack……..” Mowafi said …“, by date on google, (the first news report was cbn which i believe is christian broadcasting:
but i could not find anything about that on anadolu, prior to cbn it was published here: link to theshininglight.info ( unsourced) then timesofisrael.
also interesting, re morsi’s choice of replacements on the same reuter’s link:
this indicates to me morsi thought it was perhaps more than simply a matter of “never imagined that a Muslim would kill a Muslim on the hour of breaking the fast in Ramadan” that prevented the ex intelligence chief from disclosing the ‘detailed’ information he allegedly had prior to the attack. one can assume he was fired for his stupidity, or something else. but it is telling he appointed a new head of intelligence who was not loyal to mubarak. plus replacing the governor, a new head of military police, and named a new head of the presidential guard.
this also indicates possibly a lack of loyalty, as opposed to mere stupidity. so who did he think they were loyal too? mubarak? (IS/US) or the ‘islamists’ who carried out the attack? and how might either of those have impacted the attack? was it a ‘they let it happen’ situation, or something other than that?
“from my perspective the most glaring immediate repercussion is how it slammed shut the border.”…annie
Yep, as always, look at the results.
here is something else to consider (only published in hebrew). not sure if it connects but it is not ‘nothing’. from june 28th.
link to mako.co.il
from google translate:
so, there was a major arrest of bedoin trackers (a high percentage, who were the others?)who work for the idf, are soldiers for the idf. some quite prominent (read the whole article for details).
Three tons of heroin and cocaine a year..ten billion? that’s a lot of money. the arrests probably mean somebody is pissed.
so…who gets the other 80%-90%? who in egypt/jordan and israel is driving this operation, because it’s not the mules. and it is very unlikely hamas is involved in drug smuggling.
and while this is all being attributed to ‘terrorism’ perhaps in reality it is actually a drug operation or retaliation for a drug operation. and how , pray tell, could an operation of this sort go on for years without the co-operation of at least some egyptian border guards or even higher ups in the egyptian security? and i doubt if it is just israeli bedouins making bucks off this operation.
as what if, during those meetings between hamas and morsi they made some arrangement about shutting down the drug flow then that would really put a dent in somebody’s business.
but, there’s no mention of it at all. who helped bust this up from the egyptian side? might that be a reason a group of soldiers were murdered?
Excellent post Annie. It warrants significant follow up – Hamas has repeatedly complained regarding drug infiltration into Gaza. Also, does the smuggling entail far more than drugs (and this is not about weapons.)? Given the rigidity of the IDF system, who beyond the Bedouin are involved?
and to what purpose?
thanks abierno. since the article said these arrests and trial were well publicized in israel i kinda wondered why it wasn’t in the english press. but i peeked around and found an israeli tv news report about it at youtube but of course i can’t understand it (i think i hear her say hezbollah tho, could be from a separate report) . from may 3rd:
Bedouin trackers investigation involving dozens of drug smuggling and espionage morning the Israel
link to youtube.com
the smuggling operation is bucko bucko bucks and it defies imagination it’s all clandestine out of earshot of egyptian border authorities. (possibly why the governor was fired by morsi)
i recall when one of those caravans from europe tried to make it into gaza the massive harassment at the border, we reported it here with a video. apparently, as i recall, the egyptian border people were really plugged in with israel. they had an intense agenda.
somebody made lots of money off the tunnels, not just gazans and bedouins. it was a market that was going to shut down. also, the report from gulf news where they said the perpetrators had bedouin costumes . link to gulfnews.com
here’s another article i intercepted. this is not secretive stuff but was somewhat off my radar.
EGYPT: Bedouins begin to demand equal citizenship rights
link to irinnews.org
Good catches annie…another dimension.
Ziocaine is produced in Israel–they don’t need to smuggle it in. But I guess it loses it’s effect after too much use. Time for the hard stuff.
Given the rigidity of the IDF system, who beyond the Bedouin are involved?
and to what purpose?
follow the money…sometimes customers fund these kinds of operations.
Can you please explain?
I simply cannot see why this, in your opinion is the most important repercussion. On the contrary, I think it is almost inconsequential for great majority of the people there.
when you say ‘there’ what are you talking about? the entire sinai only has a population less than a third of gaza’s which is one of the most densely populated places on the planet.
if you simply cannot see how millions of palestinians being blockaded in gaza is inconsequential i’m afraid there is nothing i can do to help your comprehension skills.
I have been respectful and expect the same from you.
No need to put me down, as lacking in comprehension skills.
When two people have different opinions, it is the time to find the truth, rather than insult each other. At least this is my idea of o sincere conversation.
From all my research I am not aware of any serious consequences on the general population of the “millions of Palestinians blocked in Gaza”.
According to everything I read, the living standard in Gaza is very good, far better than the median for Egypt.
Also the fact that they are densely populated has nothing to do with living standard. For your comparison here is a table of population per square mile:
Macau 73,350
Monaco 42,143
Singapore 18,645
Hong Kong 18,176
Gibraltar 12,056
Gaza Strip 9,713
As you can see, the first 5 countries listed above have very high living standard. Gaza is 6th by population density, and has median living standard, comparable to Mexico, Bulgaria, Jordan, and higher than Egypt.
They are among the richest non-oily Arab states.
you can have your own opinion but you cannot have your own facts. few suggestions, read the comment policy. nakba (which is ongoing) denial is a banning offense here. frankly, i am surprised this comment of yours even passed moderation, perhaps it is because you are a new poster here but i find you really skirt on the edge with some of your comments, they are grossly offensive.
From all my research I am not aware of any serious consequences on the general population of the “millions of Palestinians blocked in Gaza”.
then you are not paying attention. read these for starters.
link to mondoweiss.net
link to mondoweiss.net
there was a case last year of a 6 year old drowning in sewage. there isn’t even enough electricity to run the sewage plants and the water is contaminated. and that’s the least of it.
also, perhaps you are unaware the entire inner circumference of gaza, aside from the ocean, is lined with a wide deep buffer zone that is uninhabitable unless you’re interested in living in place the iof frequently acts like it uses for target practice, on humans . why don’t you figure out how many square miles that encompasses and then get back to us about the density per square miles after the circumference is excluded from your calculations..
also, the amount of respect you can expect from me is exactly zilch.
So that is the official policy of Mondoweiss, the Nakba is on-going so people can’t question the well-being of the Gazans?
Instead of crying to the moderators, why don’t you prove him wrong Annie. Also where did this idea that the Nakba is on going come from? Care to point me towards some historical facts which say the Nakba wasn’t just the creation of Israel, but an ongoing event?
the catastrophe is ongoing.
link to ongoingnakba.org
the official policy of mondoweiss is we ban for nakba denial. it was merely a suggestion, he doesn’t have to take my advise. i have no need to cry to the moderators.
people can’t question the well-being of the Gazans?
there was no question in his comment, not that i saw. anyway, you can try posting anything, but i figure the reason we hardly ever get comments around here like the living standard in Gaza is very good is because they do not make it past moderation. some things are not worth debating in my opinion, so no i will not be ‘proving him wrong’. you can also try saying there is no occupation but it would probably get trashed and rightfully so.
where did this idea that the Nakba is on going come from?
it has been around for awhile. wiki, ‘defining nakba’:
link to en.wikipedia.org
@vivarto Once again (not so much for you but for anyone just picking up on this conflict) your tragically inaccurate statement:
“From all my research I am not aware of any serious consequences on the general population of the “millions of Palestinians blocked in Gaza”. According to everything I read, the living standard in Gaza is very good, far better than the median for Egypt. “
IS a reflection on your research abilities. From the very first place someone who didn’t know anything would go for comprehensive and comparative information about the economy in Gaza and the WB (Palestine), the CIA World Factbook: the per capita GDP of Palestine is $2900. Right across a couple of imaginary lines in the desert, the per capita GDP of Egypt is $6600 and Jordan, $6000. So right off the bat, life in Palestine is less than half as “very good” as it is in Egypt and Jordan.
link to cia.gov
Comparatively, this puts Palestine right in between Ghana and Sudan. The WB has a higher p/c GDP. I’ve seen numbers for Gaza p/c GDP of between $1500 to $1900, depending on how much aid Israel lets through. For comparison Haiti’s per capita GDP is $1300. So Gaza is closer to Haiti in terms of living standards than it is even to the [also artificially impoverished] WB.
ONLY if you START with the firm belief that a picture of a few cans on a market shelf means life is grand and seek no further could you come up with your conclusion. Along the way, if you actually did any research, you would have to ignore the myriad articles on nitrate-poisoned kids, dwindling fish stocks, raw sewage flowing through streets, rare electricity and little clean water, strawberries rotting while waiting for export through a random permit process, 40% unemployment, and many many more examples. Articles written by, well, all the NGOs on the planet.
Life in Gaza is NOT, as you say, “very good” by any wishful measure. In fact just the opposite. You simply didn’t or don’t read much or at all on this. You shouldn’t consider that an insult, just a supported observation.
“So that is the official policy of Mondoweiss, the Nakba is on-going so people can’t question the well-being of the Gazans? ”
Yes, just like it is out of bounds to “question” whether the conditions in the Nazi concentration camps were really that bad or to “question” whether it was 6 million who died or merely a few hundred thousand, or to “question” whether there were actually any gas chambers or whether the Zyclon B was used to merely disinfect the clothes of the inmates.
Nakba denial is as devilish as Holocaust denial and should be treated as such.
The comparison of the Palestinian Arab refugee crisis with the Holocaust is obscene.
The first is the case of ideological attempt to murder an entire nation. Specifically resulting on murder of 90% of Polish Jewish population. Similar though slightly smaller percentages for Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Hungary.
The coldblooded industrial scale extermination is indeed unprecedented in human history.
The Palestinian Arab refugee crisis, on the other hand is one of over 100 similar crisis of the 20th and other centuries.
Expulsion and escape of 2 million Greeks from Turkey, 15 million Germans from Poland, Czech, Russia, Hungary, Flight of 15 million Muslims from India, and Hindus from Pakistan, 3 million Vietnamese refugees, tens of million refugees in Africa, and of course so often forgotten the nearly 1 million of Jewish refugees from Arab and Muslim countries.
The Palestinian Arab, during their Nakba managed to increase their numbers 10 fold, more than any other human group in the same period.
Jews during the Holocaust lost 1/3 of their world-wide population, an 75% of their European population.
Without denying the seriousness and human tragedy of the Palestinian refugee situation, it is still obscene to compare it with Holocaust.
Doing so, is a form of Holocaust denial.
So when will the Nakba be over, when the state of Israel is gone?
“The comparison of the Palestinian Arab refugee crisis with the Holocaust is obscene.”
The fact that you don’t use the word “Nakba” here is obscene. And I understand that you want everyone to whip our their tragedies and play a game of “guess who’s got the biggest?”, but in doing so you miss the point. No one’s making a comparison between the Nakba and the Holocaust, (or the Holodomor or the Rwandan genocide, the genocide of the Armenians, the horror inflicted on the Congo by Belgium or the genocide of the Native Americans or the enslavement of the children of Africa or any of the other countless tragedies in human history), it’s the denial that is the obscenity.
And in that context, Holocaust denial and Nakba denial are identical because they attempt to rob a people of a defining tragedy, often to harm the victims and, for political reason, to protect the perpetrators. Nakba denial (along with the dehumanization that accompanies pro-israel propaganda about the Palestinians being “an invented people” or similar garbage) has no other purpose than to harm its victims and protect its perpetrators. That’s obscene.
“Without denying the seriousness and human tragedy of the Palestinian refugee situation,”
Oh, you’ve already done so you can drop the act that you give a damn about the people you repeatedly insult.
“it is still obscene to compare it with Holocaust.
Doing so, is a form of Holocaust denial.”
Nope. Not even close. What is obscene is to asserting that comparing the denial of the Holocaust to the denial of someone else’s tragedy is out of bounds, simply because you believe that it will accrue to you some moral stature if no one’s tragedy is permitted to be compared to yours. That’s obscene.
The comparison of the Palestinian Arab refugee crisis with the Holocaust is obscene.
The Nakba wasn’t limited to a refugees crisis. It was, and still is, an attempt by Zionism to destroy the Palestinians as a nation or social unit in whole or in part through persecution, massacres, and ethnic cleansing.
Nakba or Holocaust denial violate the comment policies here. There’s nothing obscene about comparing instances of the crimes enumerated in Article 6 of the Nuremberg Charter or Articles 6, 7, and 8 of the Rome Statute. The Holocaust and the Nakba provide many examples of each of those offenses.
Governments have murdered hundreds of millions of their citizens and those under their control. The Holocaust and Nakba are only two of the many examples. link to hawaii.edu
So when will the Nakba be over, when the state of Israel is gone?
Well it damn sure isn’t going to be over while Israel is still occupying and forceably evicting Palestinians so that it can colonize their territory or while it’s still persecuting them with inhuman restrictions on freedom of movement, choice of residence, and access to their own resources. The same thing applies to treating Israeli citizens like foreign aliens in the so called “Jewish State” just because they are “Arabs” who were born there.
>> Without denying the seriousness and human tragedy of the Palestinian refugee situation, it is still obscene to compare it with Holocaust.
And it’s anti-Semitic, too! But I see that you neglected to call it anti-Semitic. That’s obscene. Doing so, is a form of Holocaust denial.
I agree with you that Holocaust can be compared with the Armenian, and Rwandan and other genocides. As they indeed were genocides. The Palestinian Arab refugee crisis was not and is not a genocide. It is a very different sort of tragedy. I don’t deny that this is a tragedy, and I do wish to see it solved. Where we differ, is that you blame Israel, and I blame the Arab states. Arab states expelled more Jews than the other way round. Yet, the Arab Jews were all absorbed in the tiny Israel without even the UN help. On the other hand the Arab states (with the partial exception of Jordan) did not accept Palestinian Arabs as their citizens and used them as pawns in their strategy to destroy the Jewish state.
You must try and understand what i am saying, instead of putting your meaning in my words. Palestinian refugee crisis must be resolved as humanitarian issue, not a national issue.
If it was approach it like that, it would have been resolved long ago.
Palestinian Arabs never were a nation, and their “national identity” was artificially created, really imposed on them, for strategic reasons.
Read the quotes from Arab leaders in my previous comments.
Nakba denier alert!
Vivarto, his/her constant reference to the Nakba as the “Palestinian refugee crisis”, several times now – must not go unnoticed by the mods.
Also, he reckons that the Palestinian’s continuing plight is no more than a regular “tragedy”. Check out this classic Nakba denying statement: “Palestinian Arabs never were a nation, and their “national identity” was artificially created, really imposed on them, for strategic reasons.”
I ask everyone here to join me in objecting to vivarto’s propaganda and criminal claims.
This extremist bot must be banned and immediately.
What complete and utter rubbish, vivarto the hasbot. You pick and choose events to fit into your framework of Nakba denial, as well as denial of the Palestinian people and their rights. And then you tell us it is Holocaust denial! LOL. All in the service of more Israeli occupation and the destruction of the indigenous people. You demand this and that, how telling, mix everything up in your cut-and-paste posts, and listen to no-one. Surely the traits of a bot.
Where we differ, is that you blame Israel, and I blame the Arab states. Arab states expelled more Jews than the other way round. Yet, the Arab Jews were all absorbed in the tiny Israel without even the UN help.
FYI, the Zionists allowed UNRWA and its predecessor to register, feed, and shelter at least 17,000 Jewish refugees from Palestine in Israel. link to books.google.com
Israel received a hundred million dollar loan from the US in 1949 and has been the largest recipient of foreign aid and loan guarantees since WWII.
Article 13 of the UN Charter tasks the General Assembly with promoting the progressive codification of international law. So the majority of post WWII treaties are contained in UN General Assembly resolutions and their annexes. That means the same UN organ that defined the international crime of genocide in UN General Assembly resolution 260 A (III), also condemned the Sabra and Shatila camp massacres and declared them to be an act of Genocide. See the text of resolution 37/123 Part D
*Resolution 260 A (III)
link to un.org
*Resolution 37/123 Part D
link to un.org
In the Jorgic v. Germany case, the defendant was found guilty by the German lower court of acting with intent to commit 11 counts of genocide, murder of 22 people and dangerous assault and deprivation of liberty. The judgment of Düsseldorf Court of Appeal remained final regarding the applicant’s conviction for genocide and on eight of the counts of murder. The European Court of Human Rights upheld the conviction in the German courts for the crime of genocide based upon the necessary intent to destroy members of the group as a social unit:
link to sim.law.uu.nl
The Jewish militias and the IDF have carried out operations to destroy entire villages in Palestine and Jordan in which many more than 8 people were deliberately murdered. In the Kafr Kasem case a military court applied the Nuremberg rules against obeying a manifestly illegal order and found the soldiers guilty of crimes against humanity. In many cases, like the massacres at Deir Yassin, Qibya, Khan Yunis, Rafah, and Sammu no one was ever prosecuted.
During the 2nd Intifada in 2000, the UN Commission on Human Rights fact finders reported “widespread, systematic and gross violations of human rights perpetrated by the Israeli occupying Power, in particular mass killings and collective punishments”. The fact finding report after Operation Cast Lead contained similar evidence of mass killings. See link to unispal.un.org
Amen Hostage. The Nakba continues and has done so for 64 years.
“I agree with you that Holocaust can be compared…”
No. Go back and try to read and UNDERSTAND what I wrote. It’s 100% the reverse of your racist twattle.
“Where we differ, is that … I blame the Arab states. ”
Yes, just as the Holocaust denier blames the Jews for making up all that nonsesnse about gas in the showers.
“Palestinian Arabs never were a nation, and their “national identity” was artificially created, really imposed on them, for strategic reasons.”
This bigoted nonsense is the lies that are the heart of the zionist mental condition. This is the equal of the blood libel or the deicide claim. Let’s hope we’ve seen the last of this vivarto trash.
American, What would be the point of Iran knocking off 5 tourists in Bulgaria, people simply don’t ask themselves these questions. No one actually likes Israelis which means that everything to do with them, positive or negative, tends to be non-rational. All we are ever left with is the china bits after the bull has left the shop.
@ Nick
There is no point in it for Iran that I can see or imagine.
Leaving aside amateur groups, lone wolf terrorist and the Turkey, India, Pakistan, Kurds and Egypt problems that are more or less specific to them alone—who are the major players that stand to benefit or think they stand to benefit from creating chaos that would lead to a upheaval in or for some ME countries?
I see three that see a major benefit– Israel, the MEK and the remains of ALQ.
Israel believes a big ‘wur’ would leave them as the regional Hedgemon power of the ME, a la Clean Break and etc…
The Iranian terror group MEK thinks they can install themselves as rulers if Iran is brought down and so aligns and hires out to Isr’merica when it serves their joint purpose.
The ALQ remains still have the ‘draw the US in and drown it’ theory as a way to get Satan and Satan Jr. out of the ME so they provoke whoever, where ever they can to create chaos.
What actual ”ME Arab country” would benefit from a military US intervention in all the chaos?…None.
Even Sunni Saudi hopes that the Persian influence and Shiites can be defanged ‘covertly’ cause a big military confrontation would leave them in a lot of trouble.
So besides the big three, Isr who thinks they would come out on top, MEK who thinks they would gain Iran ,and ALQ who doesn’t give a shit for anything but running the US out of the ME, I can’t see anyone with a motive to push the chaos into a major ME upheaval.
It’s also so laughable that the US pretends to think that Iran would ruin itself by attacking Israel or anyone else with nukes and disrupt their entire economy—-and then slaps sanctions on Iran to ruin and disrupt their entire ecomony. You absolutely cannot make up this kind of illogical spinaroo stupidity.
From this piece by David Ignatius in last Sunday’s Washington Post, Is Saudi Arabia on the Edge?, it appears Saudi Arabia takes the threat of Shiite disturbances in its eastern (oil) province very seriously:
Note, however, the (poor) quality of the evidence Ignatius had to use to shoot down the story that Prince Bandar was assassinated:
American, I accept your three potential beneficiaries although it remains hard to imagine any of them sitting down and deciding that killing 5 Israeli tourists in Bulgaria would meaningfully further their aspirations.
What is true is almost unlimited general confusion about the ME, confusion which arises from ignorance and is compensated for by imagining and adopting a background and a set of axioms that alleviate the confusion, a practice not a million miles from daydreaming. It is perhaps from within those daydreams that individuals emerge to perpetrate terrorist attacks. Is it too fanciful to take the view that the US and Israel are the primary creators of the make-belief that gives rise to such irrational behaviour? Make-belief, like rumour cruel, is self-replicating, but it is also seeded.
“although it remains hard to imagine any of them sitting down and deciding that killing 5 Israeli tourists in Bulgaria would meaningfully further their aspirations.”….Nick
It would for anyone who wanted to keep tensions stirred up…particulary against Iran, so could have been the MEK who is wild card and uncontrollable and would blow up Israelis even thought they coperate with them on other incidents…or could be almost anyone….everyone hates Israel…with reason.
or could be almost anyone….everyone hates Israel…with reason.
No, not everyone, just the antisemites.
Of course Israel does horrible things.
However all countries surrounding , all without exceptions do MUCH MORE horrible things. From honor killing and mutilating little girls, to ethnic cleansing and persecution of minorities, lack of religious tolerance, lack of freedom of speech, and wide-spread torture. It is all present in Egypt, Syria, Saudi, Iraq, Jordan, and everywhere else in the entire Arab and Muslim world.
Now there those who say that hating Israel has nothing to do with antisemitism. But what they cannot explain is why they hate Israel rather than all those other countries.
The only reason why Israel is singled out is because Israel is the only JEWISH state in the world.
american, lots of people do not hate. i don’t hate israel.
Hatred of Israel has become more powerful than love for the Palestinians and their well-being.
don’t bank on it.
Hatred of Israel has become more powerful than love for the Palestinians and their well-being.
That’s only logical.
“Palestinian nation” is a product of that hatred.
The period there were many more refugees from other countries, but they were absorbed and lasting refugee problem resulted. Among them were nearly 1 million Jewish refugees from Arab and Muslim countries. Most went to Israel, where they were absorbed, and assimilated.
Other groups are Hindus and Muslims in India’s independence form Britain.
Germans from Poland, Czech, Russia, Greeks from Turkey (a bit earlier), Armenians from Azerbaijan a bit later. In all of those cases, the refugees were absorbed in the host countries populations where they became full citizens.
On the other hand, the Arab countries cynically prevented their Palestinian brothers and sisters from becoming citizens is their countries. They prevented them from getting many benefits and bared them from various professions. They did that with only one purpose, to perpetrate the hatred of Israel with the ultimate goal of final destruction of the “Zionist enemy”.
So yes, hatred is the primary cause of the very existence of the Palestinian Arab nation.
And indeed this is a tragedy, that needs to be resolved.
“Palestinian nation” is a product of that hatred.
i’d like to send a direct message to the israel project, or whatever zio org is directing the spam trolls for mondoweiss. could you send better ones please. is this our replacement for anan? it’s only been like 2 days for this new poster and this is simply not going to cut it.
thanks
btw, i am speaking personally for myself and not the site.
How much did Israel love the Palestinians when they were kicking them out Merk?
vivarto August 9, 2012 at 9:08 pm
“No, not everyone, just the antisemites”
One doesn’t have to be an Antisemite to hate 64 years of belligerence, lies, deceit, theft of territory, apartheid policies, ethnic cleansing, racism, 64 years of occupation. All of which Israel is inflicting on people OUTSIDE of Israel.
“Of course Israel does horrible things.
However all countries surrounding , all without exceptions do MUCH MORE horrible things. “
1) Without exceptions = little heap of ziosh*te
2) How many wrongs make a right
3) None of the things you mention has anything whatsoever to do with the topic
“The only reason why Israel is singled out is because Israel is the only JEWISH state in the world”
Oh? Nothing to do with Israel being in breech of the UN Charter, International Law, the Geneva Conventions, lying to the world, lying to its own citizens, ethnic cleansing, violating treaties, armistice agreements, cease fire agreements, illegally annexing territory illegally acquired by war, illegal settlements, all perpetrated while acting OUTSIDE of its sovereign extent?
Among them were nearly 1 million Jewish refugees from Arab and Muslim countries. Most went to Israel, where they were absorbed, and assimilated.
How can you distinguish many of them from other Zionists making aliya? There were Zionist federations and unions in all of those countries during the mandate era complaining to high Heaven about British limits on immigration quotas. The Jewish Agency deliberately conducted campaigns to spread fear and trigger mass exoduses in Iraq and other countries after the State of Israel was established. –- See Memorandum of Conversation, by the Director of the Office of Near Eastern Affairs (Jones), Secret [WASHINGTON,] August 2,1951.
Subject: Israel’s Concern Re Peace With the Arabs and Other Matters.
Participants: Mr. Theodore Kollek, Embassy of Israel and Mr. G. Lewis Jones, NE, Foreign relations of the United States, 1951. The Near East and Africa, page 815 link to digicoll.library.wisc.edu
Walter Laqueur noted that “Among the Irgun and the Stern Gang there were many youngsters from the Oriental Jewish community, which was not widely represented in the non-terrorist Hagana.” See A history of terrorism, Transaction Publishers, 1977, page 122 link to books.google.com
One area where they were over-represented was in the Palmach’s corps of assassins. Jewish undercover units, called “The Arabists of the Palmach” or Mista’arvim [literally, "Arab-pretenders"], are known to have been in operation in Palestine and neighboring Arab countries as early as 1942. The purpose of the units, which were part of the Palmach, was to gather intelligence information and carry out assassinations of Arabs, by infiltrating Arab towns and villages disguised as local Arabs. Primarily Jews who originated from Arab countries were recruited to the Mista ‘rivim. — See Targeting To Kill: Israel’s Undercover Units, Elia Zureik and Anita Vitullo, The Palestine Human Rights Information Center (PHRIC)
*link to thejerusalemfund.org
*link to palmach.org.il
and Zvika Dror, The ’Arabists’ of the Palmach (Hakibbutz Hameuchad Publishing House, 1986)
–pages 83-84 of Michael Fischbach, Jewish Property Claims Against Arab Countries
There certainly were Jews who were deprived of property and citizenship or who had legitimate fears of persecution, but let’s not pretend that there were no Zionists in the Oriental communities or that many of them did not serve as a Zionist fifth column at great risk to the interests of their Arab Jewish brethren.
“But what they cannot explain is why they hate Israel rather than all those other countries.”….vivarto
If it has to be explained to you it would be a waste of time.
“american, lots of people do not hate. i don’t hate israel.”..annie
I know, but I do, I’m a bad person…..sometimes…..LOL
Of course— I don’t hate the ‘land’ of Israel or everyone in it– just the parasitic, psycho Zios that support and run it.
American, You don’t have either to love or hate. It is normal in unstressed situations for people to accept and be interested in each other, particularly strangers, and the same applies to nations. We are not automatically negative towards others. Israel, however, evokes varying degrees of negativity in many if not most of us. I am not aware of any other nation this applies to. It’s not dislike of how the place is run or it might apply to China or the KSA or Syria where on the whole we feel sympathy for the citizens. Hate is perhaps too strong a word although the phenomenon it expresses is real enough.
Vivarti,
By absorbing Patestinian refugees, other countries would have aided and abetted Israelis in ethnic cleansing of Palestine and rewarded them by financing care of the refugees, the cost of which is Israel’s responsibility.
“And indeed this is a tragedy, that needs to be resolved.”
I’m glad that you recognize the justice in the Palestinian demand for right of return. Now all we need to do is get the bastards running the zionist entity to agree with us of the injustice of their demonic creation and return the land to be a state for all its people.
“‘Palestinian nation’ is a product of that hatred.”
Nonsense. Palestinian nationalism is the result of the desire of the Palestinian people to exercise the self-determination that is their right, in the face of a demonic ideology.
Note, however, the (poor) quality of the evidence Ignatius had to use to shoot down the story that Prince Bandar was assassinated
i wonder how long they can keep a dead man alive.
annie,
You mean this little pile swept under the carpet:
“the rumor was rebutted Friday by a source who said that Bandar had been in telephone contact with non-Saudis.”
“A source” – wow that gives us a clear face, name and address.
“In contact with non-Saudis” – double wow cuz this gives us a clearer face, name and address too. NOT!!!!!!!
link to dailystar.com.lb
I don’t know what’s happening to David Ignaius – really poor piece of journalism from him – shockingly so.
@ annie and @ American
It is perfectly acceptable to hate Israel – not for who it is, but for what it does, just as it is perfectly reasonable to hate a rapist or a child-molester, independent of who they may be, or what religion they may follow.
I ain’t ashamed to hate on evil either, Cloaky.
It actually invigorates and motivates me to do something ’bout it. Like blogging.
I love a good old fashioned fight between good and evil in cyberspace.
By absorbing Patestinian refugees, other countries would have aided and abetted Israelis in ethnic cleansing of Palestine and rewarded them by financing care of the refugees, the cost of which is Israel’s responsibility
Sure, it is better to keep the “Palestinian” brothers stateless, bared from good jobs, with limited access to higher education, in some countries not allowed to live outside the designated areas. That’s Arab and leftist compassion.
At the same time, the value of property confiscated by the Arab states from Jewish refugees is more than 10 times the value of the Arab property lost to Israel. Arab refugees form Israel received and are continuing to receive the largest per capita international help any group has ever received. Jewish refugees from Arab countries, came with nothing to Israel, and Israel refused the United Nation help.
However it is significant that the point you are making is that Palestinian refugees should not be resettled and absorbed because that would legitimize Israel. Therefore it is more important to oppose Israel than to help the “Palestinians”!
You are a good exemplar to illustrate my point. The support for “Palestinians” is not out of love for them, but out of hatred for the Jewish state. 1800 years of antisemitism is not going to disappear overnight.
Never said that.
You keep using the word “demonic”.
Interesting inheritance from the centuries of antisemitic demonization of Jews. Otherwise there is nothing particularly “demonic” about Israel.
Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, are much worse in every respect…
Or think of Saudi Arabia, where girls were forced to a burning school by their “moral “police because they were not properly dressed, when they run out. They all died in fires. Now that’s beyond Demonic. Or Iran, where the dictatorship has killed raped and tortured 1000s of young people demanding freedom. That’s demonic.
Israel is relatively nice country, and very tolerant. They allow Christians, Jews, Bahais and Atheists to practice their religions unmolested. They have free press (as free as in any Western country.)
So I don’t share your view of Zionists as “demonic”, rather I see them as Jewish national liberation movement.
I don’t see any possibility of Jews and Arabs living harmoniously together in the same state. The only way Jews can live in an Arab majority state is as Dhimmies == second class citizens with very limited rights, prone to abuses at the hands of their Arab overlords.
When you were saying that, I was wondering if you were referring to Prophet Muhammad, or to Yasser Arafat, then out of the context I deduced that you were referring to the Jewish state.
The surprising thing is that it is considered politically incorrect among the “progressives” to mention these well know facts about the two above mentioned individuals.
“Never said that.”
Too bad, viv. I thought you might be one of the good people.
“You keep using the word ‘demonic”.
Yes it is part of the broad and wonderful English vocabulary. Very useful.
“Interesting inheritance from the centuries of antisemitic demonization of Jews.”
No. Sadly, I understand that your mental condition requires you to jump to such conclusions. Hopefully modern medicine will help you out.
“Otherwise there is nothing particularly ‘demonic’ about Israel.”
I think that holding a population equal to its own de jure population as stateless serfs without the full compliment of human rights and no access to the vote or say in the government that controls their lives based on their ethno-religious background is absolutely demonic. But I’m nutty that way.
It’s also awful, bad, horrible, yucky and disgusting (unless you think that there is some duplicitous reason for me using those words, harping back, no doubt to centuries of people calling Jews “yucky”. In that case, I might change my word choice.)
“Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, are much worse in every respect…”
Nonsense. But even if it were so, so what? The fact that there are three countries worse than israel doesn’t make israel “undemonic” but merely “not the worst state in the world.” (Which is North Korea, by the way. I know. You’re shocked. Because you’re convinced that I’m an antisemite, that must make no sense to you. Your brain must be leaking out of your ears at how someone who is antisemitic as you suppose I am, can actually, on merit, find another country worse than israel….)
“Or think of Saudi Arabia, where girls were forced to a burning school by their “moral “police because they were not properly dressed, when they run out. They all died in fires. Now that’s beyond Demonic. Or Iran, where the dictatorship has killed raped and tortured 1000s of young people demanding freedom. That’s demonic.”
Or holding millions of people in cantons, surrounded by zionist settlers and subjecting them to martial law for three generations, for no reason other than their ethnicity and religion and the fact that their land is being coveted by the settlers. That’s pretty damned demonic, too.
“Israel is relatively nice country, and very tolerant.”
Well, you know, I try to harmonize, on the one hand, “nice” and “tolerant” and on the other: the housing demolitions, the Jew-only roads, the settlers stealing Palestinian land, the martial law based on ethnicity and religion, the random violence and bigotry, both official and unofficial, against the Palestinians, the theft of environmental resources and the dehumanizing treatment of the occupation and conclude that you must be kooky to think that’s “nice” and “tolerant.”
“They allow Christians, Jews, Bahais and Atheists to practice their religions unmolested. ”
Oh that’s all very nice of them. (Not really true, of course.) But too bad that the biggest non-Jewish religion in the state isn’t one of these.
“They have free press (as free as in any Western country.)”
LOL. According to Reporters without Borders, it’s better than places like Cuba and North Korea, and even places like Mongolia, Brazil and Nepal. Israel rates 92nd. Worse than Kuwait (78), Mozambique (66), USA (47), France (38), Poland (24), Japan (22). And no where near German (tied for 16), Ireland (15), Sweden (12), Canada (10), Austria (5) or Finland or Norway (tied for 1st). (But it could always boast “Israel… freer press than Lebanon but not as free as Benin or Congo!!!”)
“So I don’t share your view of Zionists as ‘demonic’, rather I see them as Jewish national liberation movement.”
And if it didn’t involve ethnically cleansing another people from their own land, I might agree. But alas…
“The only way Jews can live in an Arab majority state is as Dhimmies == second class citizens with very limited rights, prone to abuses at the hands of their Arab overlords.”
Yeah, and we all know that it’s better to force the Arabs to live in an Jewish state as second-class citizens with very limited rights, prone to abuses at the hands of Jewish overlords. That’s MUCH better, as the last 67 years have demonstrated, amirite???
Sure, it is better to keep the “Palestinian” brothers stateless
They haven’t. Jordan granted citizenship to their brethren in central Palestine. The Charter of the Arab League of States has an Annex on the State of Palestine, which has always recognized the its de jure existence. Today, there are about 130 countries that recognize the State of Palestine inside the 4 June 1967 borders, but Israel and the US continue to use blackmail and threats of annexation to deny its existence as a separate occupied country.
How many times do you have to re-explain this here, Hostage?
Vivarto, read the damn archives. You are so far behind the eight-ball I’m shocked by Hostage’s kindness and patience in dealing with you.
EDIT: vivarto: before you get all ornery and idiotic, Hostage is ex-US military involved with the negotiations he references, and another thing, he’s Jewish. Should save you time casting aspersions since I know you wont read his archives.
Jordan is an exception. They did grant the citizenship, to Palestinians. Now they are taking it away from many. But Jordan is the only Arab country to do so. Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, did not.
You are also mixing two issues. Recognizing the “Palestine” is not the same as granting Lebanese citizenship to “Palestinians” living there.
The fact that 130 countries recognize “Palestine” does not mean anything. Palestine is not a viable state. They don’t have a legitimate government, and without the international, mostly Western help, they would be yet another failed state, of which there are more than enough in the Muslim world.
In particular I don’t see why that recognition should affect Israel?
Suppose one day 130 countries will recognize London’s East End, as and independent country, or part of Pakistan, does that mean that England should cede Part of London?
I hope not. If English have any ball left, (which is not certain) they will chase out the Muslims from East End back to Pakistan and regain their country.
Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, did not. You are also mixing two issues. Recognizing the “Palestine” is not the same as granting Lebanese citizenship to “Palestinians” living there.
Actually the Syrians claimed sovereignty over the ten villages in the DMZs as soon as the Israelis claimed (retroactively) that Israel wasn’t a successor to the government of Palestine and that none of the refugees had ever been its citizens. So the jury is still out until the final settlement on those displaced “Palestinians” from Khan el Duweir in the northern sector; Baqqara, Ghannameh, Mansurat el Khayt, Yirda in the central sector; Samra, old and new Nuqeib, Kh. Tawafiq and al Hemma in the southern sector.
States are spatial entities. It is a gross violation of the territorial integrity of Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq and of international law to drive the unwanted Arab inhabitants of the Mandated State of Palestine into the sovereign territory of another state and maintain that situation by threats or use of force. No foreign country has any obligation to grant refugees citizenship, only asylum.
The fact that 130 countries recognize “Palestine” does not mean anything. Palestine is not a viable state. They don’t have a legitimate government, and without the international, mostly Western help, they would be yet another failed state, of which there are more than enough in the Muslim world.
Recognition by the executive branch of a government is legally binding under customary international law and common law. For example, the Restatement (Third) of the Foreign Relations Law of the United States § 201 Reporters note 3 says “The United States will treat States the territory of which is under foreign military occupation as continuing to exist.”
In Kletter v Dulles, the Court ruled that in 1932 the Executive branch of the US government had recognized Palestine as a separate foreign state in its treaties of commerce. See link to dc.findacase.com
In 1995 the State Department published a Memorandum of Conversation between William Crawford Jr. and Mr. Shaul Bar-Haim from the Israeli Embassy (February 7, 1963) regarding Jerusalem. Bar-Haim said “The use of the term “Palestine” is historical fiction; it encourages the Palestine entity concept; its “revived usage enrages” individual Israelis”. Crawford said “It is difficult to see how it “enrages” Israeli opinion. The practice is consistent with the fact that, ”in a de jure sense”, Jerusalem was part of Palestine and has not since become part of any other sovereignty.
Of course the same thing applies to the territory of Gaza. The US government recognized the union between Arab Palestine and Transjordan and the sovereignty of the new entity over the combined territory. See “Memorandum of Conversation, between Mr. Stuart W. Rockwell of the Office of African and Near Eastern Affairs, US State department and Mr. Abdel Monem Rifai, Counselor, Jordan Legation in Washington, June 5, 1950″ in Foreign relations of the United States, 1950. The Near East, South Asia, and Africa, Volume V (1950), Page 921 link to digicoll.library.wisc.edu
The 1993 disengagement by the government of Jordan was without prejudice to the legal status of the territory captured by Israel in 1967 under the terms of the Peace Treaty between Jordan and Israel. The US is obliged to treat the West Bank as part of an occupied state that continues to exist in a de jure sense until it recognizes the State of Palestine as part of its own Phase II Road Map obligations:
link to avalon.law.yale.edu
More junk history, vivarto. Can you read some informed books, rather than rely on stupid websites for your lysergic coloured view of history not to mention your idiotic casual racist views.
“It is perfectly acceptable to hate Israel – not for who it is, but for what it does”…Cloak&Dagger
Exactly.
If you can’t hate evil and love justice why call ourselves a ‘civilization’.
It is perfectly acceptable to hate Israel
let’s take israel out of the equation for a second and ask ourselves, not if it is reasonable or understandable that people hate, but if it is personally acceptable (to hate) as a choice of lifestyle. for me it isn’t, i see no reason to make an exception for israel. i believe hate corrodes the hater.
i’ve discussed my ideas on this topic before on these threads including several quotes by MLK including “Let no man pull you low enough to hate him” :
link to mondoweiss.net
scroll up for more detail.
another thing i have noted time again on these threads for it is pervasive throughout hasbara, the crutch to accuse ones adversaries of hatred. it’s just constant.
if someone wants to speak for themselves and say they have hatred for something or someone that is one thing, but i won’t get dragged into accusing my adversaries of hatred. it’s a never ending cycle. get off the hate chain and start with yourself. that is my philosophy.
c&d, american, i can accept that you hate israel because i refuse to live in denial, but it is not acceptable to me that you hate. it’s bad for your mental health. you will be a stronger warrior for peace if you can rid your heart of hate. i believe that.
good luck.
Michael Corleone’s advice to Andy Garcia, Godfather III: “Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgment.”
@ annie
You are a better [wo]man than I, Gunga Din!
I fear for what will happen as Israel continues unstopped on its current course. In the immortal words of Yoda, “fear leads to anger, and anger leads to hate”.
I face anger every day as I watch this never-ending drama unfold from my California cocoon. And I hate that they do this. I won’t stop hating until they stop doing what they are doing.
annie..
You have to understand how I, we, some of us, are built different.
My family loves animals for instance which led to supporting a animal sanctuary and belonging to a animal rescue group that includes going after animal abusers, taking their animals and prosecuting them in court…..which besides fines and sentence includes restrictions against EVER keeping or owning any animals again without going back to jail.
Included in ‘loving ‘ the animals is ‘hating’ the abuse/abuser ‘enough’ to go to the legal hassle and follow thru on making sure they can’t do it again.
I don’t feel sorry for these sickos or want to ‘understand’ them, I want to stop them. Let someone else delve into their sickness and try to reform them ‘after’ they are caught and stopped by people like me.
My hatred for these kinds doesn’t consume my life or keep me up at night, it’s a ‘reaction’ to what these people are when I see what they have done.
So far my hate hasn’t killed any animal torturers and I feel very comfortable hating them and what they do and having them punished thru the courts. Perhaps some can separate love of something from hate of it’s abusers…..but evil isn’t some cloud floating around out there on it’s own, it comes from the hands of humans so those humans are what you have to deal with.
“Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgment.”
LOL…not necessarily. Compartmentalize the feelings from the actions my dear Watson.
Good example re Palestine…the non violent protest movement.
”hate) as a choice of lifestyle”
I don’t think hate or how we are using the word or emotion hate here is a life style of any of us. It’s a reaction. People react differently to the abhorrent or tragic….some with anger or frustration at their own or someone elses inability to prevent it, some with sadness, some with fatalism.
Hate (within limits) is not always unhealthy, like love, it can produce the necessary energy for you to actively oppose what you find unjust and morally unacceptable to you.
What hate accomplishes is mostly bad, but not always, what love accomplishes is mostly good but not always. It’s complicated, there are some exceptions.
When someone devotes their life to the pursuit of justice is it because they love the ‘concept’ of justice or hate injustice done to real people?…….the love and hate go together in some cases imo.
I don’t think hate or how we are using the word or emotion hate here is a life style of any of us.
ok,i am going to try reframing, if it is personally acceptable (to hate) as a choice of lifestyle. for me it isn’t
for me, i have made a choice to not accept hate as an option. this is a lifestyle choice for me. albeit, sometimes in life we have no choice or no control over our emotions.
i really cannot think of any emotion or experience worse than that of hatred. nothing, finito. if it exists i have not heard of it.
so when you say hate is a reaction and that you hate the animal abuser i would respond ‘how much’? is your hatred on a scale from one to ten? a decimal or infinite? certainly all anger is not hatred. webster doesn’t even use it as a synonym for anger. rage might be more applicable but one can hate without being enraged.
hatred is a state of being, a condition of being in hate. so i am not saying it would be impossible for me to hate, i am saying i have made a lifestyle choice not to go there, a conscience decision. however, if i saw my family massacred before my eyes it might prevent me from the ability to choose. my state of mind might rip from me the ability to see or experience an option.
but if you are in a state of being where you experience hatred for the animal abuser, and this hatred drives you to make sure he is prosecuted i would ask you how that hatred serves you and couldn’t you pursue your goal of justice sans the experience of hate? and i am just wondering what you might think of your own hatred towards this person if a person came into your life and murdered your family. might your own emotions over the animal abuser seem trivial by comparison? when you say you hate i just wonder..how much? because i have been in pain before, i have visualized ripping someones heart out, and let me tell you it has not improved my life. people in a state of rage are not generally their most effective. so why don’t you tell me what if feels like for you to hate. is it all consuming or do you find it easy to go about your everyday life while hating? for me, it is a lifestyle choice. hopefully i can make it thru my life without succumbing to hatred.
also, i am here almost every single day. i have made a commitment to this movement and would like to see some resolution during my lifetime. i cry almost everyday about something i encounter, even if it is tears of joy over something beautiful but often it is not. everyday i look outside my window and give thanks to the universe for the beauty that surrounds me while others i know are living in misery. i have to constantly remind myself to create balance for the things i encounter or else i might go insane. i choose not to hate as a lifestyle. for me it is a choice. when it no longer becomes a choice, i will know. but i am not there and hopefully will never be there.
@ annie
Well let me put it this way….I dont’ hate enough to kill anyone, never thought about or felt a ‘desire’ to actually kill anyone or rip their heart out even though I may joke about it.. ..although to be honest I have felt the urge to slap a few around a bit a time or two in my life, but managed to control myself and have never even done that.
And I’ve never been really injured or had my family injured by anyone so I don’t know how consuming or deadly my hate of it might be in that circumstance. The animal abuser might become trival in comparision but you deal with bad things and people as you come to them or as occur …I can’t think ‘well this is trival in comparision to Afghan’ and so not do something about smaller things that ‘I can do’ something about.
“so why don’t you tell me what if feels like for you to hate. is it all consuming or do you find it easy to go about your everyday life while hating?
Well I don’t go about my everyday life hating. When I ‘feel’ hate it’s the result of or in conjunction with a overwhelming urge to right or stop the thing, person, whatever, that did something bad or from doing something bad, horrible, whatever and in the case of Israel specifically, the inability to do so when I read about some horror heightens the feeling.
My ‘hate outbursts” or feelings basically come and go with the occasion or events, it’s not something that stays with me in everyday life, it’s “episodes” in reaction to something.
Even when posting here about Isr-I/P-US I’m not constantly thinking or feeling “I hate it/them, I hate it/them” 90% of the time. But then there will be other times when I see some cruelty written about or think about the sheer unrelenting length of the Palestine oppression that will make me feel or say I ‘really’ hate this, them, it.
If you want me to say you or your way or attitude is morally superior, fine I’ll be happy to say that.
But again we all built different in how we cope with the bad stuff in the world…what works for you in maintaining a healthy life balance about it all might not be as healthy for people like me.
@ annie
I did have a long answer for you but I hit the wrong button and it disappeared. I’ll try to reformulate.
“so why don’t you tell me what if feels like for you to hate. is it all consuming or do you find it easy to go about your everyday life while hating?
On second thought I won’t bother.
Explaining the normal human emotion of hating something or someone bad and what the degrees are and so forth and so on is too long a conversation.
For me it’s simply an emotion that comes and goes in relation to situtations of cruelty one sees or learns about and isn’t a 24/7 consuming thing. I doubt hate is a 24/7-360 thing for anyone except the really mentally distrubed. My ‘hate ‘ for Israel is more a total and utter and hopeless disgust with it and the whole situtaiton and rings my hate bell on occasion when I read about or see something particulary bad like the children or some unarmed guy shot in the head. So far hating a few bad things/people has never given me the ‘desire’ to kill them or rip their hearts out even though I may rant about it for effect….I will admit to the urge to slap a few cretins around from time to time for various reasons but have managed to control myself and never even done that.
So if you want me to say you and your attitude is morally superior, fine I admit you’re morally superior and I’m a immoral hate monger…lol
You cry over it and practice love to keep your healthy balance. I stomp around and do what I can about the smaller evils, abuse and abusers that might seem trivial to you or some compared to bigger evils, but since they are the only ones ‘I’ can actually and ‘immediately do’ something about, that’s what I do. That how I keep a healthy balance…works for me. Might not work for others.
now now now, obviously i don’t want you making moral declarations. and i have a firey temper, it’s not like i don’t get furious and throw fits on occasion. i’m not a mopey dishrag either.
ok, one final story on this … because for me it’s not about being morally superior. the beginning of this attitude for me started when my kid was a child and we’d have play days. i noticed how often the other kids would say things like ‘i hate peanut butter’ or i hate some cartoon character etc..these little 3 and 4 year olds continually using the word hate. so i banned the word at our house (the only word ever banned at our home). i told them, ‘y’know hate is a pretty horrible thing and i really don’t think peanut butter is worth hating. can’t you just not like it? there are kids in this world, unlike you, who live in horrible situations where they really suffer and some don’t even have parents or a nice home to go home to, hate is the very worst thing there is.’ so the kids stopped using the word. i have never heard my son use the word, or his father for that matter.
one time a few years later some new kid was over and he said he hated something and one of the kids said to him, you can’t say hate at jesses’s house and the kid asked why and they looked up at me and once again i explained why some toy wasn’t worth having hate in your heart and how hate corrodes those who feel it. and that was that. so for me, it’s a choice.
listen to the words of Suheir Hammad.
link to mondoweiss.net
Annie, yup, “I hate”, and the one that always bothered me (probably more extant among boys) was “I’m gonna kill…” (you or him, it, whatever.)
Later on, it was the transparently false presumption of sexual knowledge.
‘Anger for great hurt done to another when we conceive the same to be done by injury [is called] indignation’ says Hobbes. What I find in myself when I contemplate Zionism as an idea is complete disagreement and when I contemplate its deeds and triumphs I find indignation – that is I find it sometimes, because emotions like this arise from time to time, as American says, not every hour every day. I would distinguish indignation from hatred because the sense of indignation is connected, as Hobbes says, with the desire to argue or convince, ie to make my ‘conception of injury’ prevail in the mind of another. But it’s no use denying that it’s a form of anger and anger is a negative emotion.
My parents had the same prohibition about the word “can’t.”
“LOL…not necessarily. Compartmentalize the feelings from the actions my dear Watson.”
No can do if the amygdala gets there first. ;-)
“I hope not. If English have any ball left, (which is not certain) they will chase out the Muslims from East End back to Pakistan and regain their country.”
That good advice for the treatment of Jews, too? Do you think that the Jews who invaded Palestine should have been chased out so that the Palestinians could have regained their country?
The salafists are trying to make the Morsi administration look bad and to foment border tensions between the Bedouin tribes in the Sinai and the Negav IMHO. That was my first two thoughts.
On the other hand, Israel is practically begging the Egyptian army to police the Sinai so I think this will be the next step. Like Nixon going to China, Morsi can hardly be called a zionist stooge if he militarizes the Sinai. It isn’t about Gaza, Hamas, or Mossad, it is about small, but determined groups of Salafists whose goal is to foment stress on the Egyptian-Israeli border.
To some extent the Salafists have succeeded as I see Morsi being blamed by the soldiers families and booed in public. If there is a conspiracy element at work here, I would argue that the Egyptian military(deep down)would also like to see Islamists in general get blamed for everything, so maybe they(The Egyptian military elite)didn’t pay too much warning to the Israeli warning(s).
Israel is practically begging the Egyptian army to police the Sinai
then why do they have to get permission from lieberman to police their own territory? several msm reports referenced this.
If there is a conspiracy element at work here, I would argue that the Egyptian military(deep down)would also like to see Islamists in general get blamed for everything, so maybe they(The Egyptian military elite)didn’t pay too much warning to the Israeli warning(s).
i agree the mubarak loyalists in the military (of which there are many) would also like to see Islamists in general get blamed.
so maybe they(The Egyptian military elite)didn’t pay too much warning to the Israeli warning(s).
or maybe they (whoever knew) paid attention and decided the attack (or risk of attack depending on how much they knew), politicized, worked in their favor.
Because the “peace agreement” with Israel, limits the presence of the Egyptian military in Sinai. Sinai is supposed to be a military buffer zone between Israel and Egypt.
If Egypt were to unilaterally increase their military strength in Sinai, that would be the end of the “peace agreement” and the end of $1.5 billion from the United States, and the end of US support, training and cooperation with the Egyptian Army.
iow, according to you, Israel is practically begging the Egyptian army to police the Sinai and the reason egypt has to get permission from israel to enter their own territory is because of the US? do you think if the US stepped out of the way israel would no longer have to ‘beg’ egypt to have troops in the sinai.
I did not use the term “begging the Egyptian army”, biorabbi did.
It is true that Israel wants the Egyptians to rain in the jihadis in Sinai, at the same time, Israel does not want them to use this as an excuse to re-militarize Sinai.
Israel wants Egypt to use their existing forces to get clean out the terrorists.
The US is the party to the “peace agreement”, if the remaining parties chose to re-negotiate it, US will have no problem.
However if Egypt broke the agreement unilaterally, then Israel would demand that the US to ends their support for Egypt as per the peace agreement signed by Carter.
I did not use the term “begging the Egyptian army”, biorabbi did.
no wonder your response contradicted the allegation. israel wants to control the show, obviously. what else is new.
Annie, I think yall are all pretty much right, just saying the same things in different terms. Israel is indeed begging the Egyptians to move in and crush the Sinai militants, but Egypt is required to get permission under the treaty from Israel.
Morsy will have to re-up his calls to renegotiate the treaty to give Egypt more permanent control in Sinai. If Israel doesn’t give any ground on this, it’s going to back Morsy into a corner, especially after the (inevitable) civilian casualties from the government offensive appear. Very soon, it will stop looking like the Egyptian government is avenging its own soldiers and will again look like the Egyptian government is just guarding Israel’s borders.
bill, imho israel doesn’t beg. they have other means of persuasion. that goes for dealing with the PA and the US too. other than that of course i agree. they would love for the whole world to do what they want. they’d like the pa to keep the israeli noose around palestinians necks. this is no surprise. if they could rule the egyptian military,like they could via mubarak they would. that goes without saying. but begging egypt?please. they’d throw a false flag before they ever did that.
and did the news reports say israel begged morsi to do something? no, it said israel gave permission for egypt to bring in the troops. get it?
No disagreement. “Begging” may not be the right word, but I think the point remains the same. Israel wants Egypt to temporarily remilitarize Sinai and them demilitarize it immediately when Israel decides things have gone far enough. The Egyptian government can play along somewhat (because it wants to rein in the Bedouin as well), but to comepletely bend over to Israel’s desires would be incredibly damaging to the government. Morsi MUST keep pushing to amend the military annex to the treaty, and the longer this little offensive goes on, the more he will need to do so.
At some point very soon, Morsi’s only leverage will simply be to pull back and hope he’s taught the Bedouin not to attack Egyptian troops but to attack Israel as well (though I highly doubt they’ll take such a lesson to heart).
“Mursy.” No “O” in Arabic.
thanks mrw.
Annie, do you know what a “biorabbi” is? I admit, my knowledge of Jewish canon law is weak. Is that somebody who gives Jews advice on composting and recycling? Or is the “biorabbi” the cleric responsible for telling adolescent Jews about the ‘birds and the bees’?
What kind of person intimates they are a minister or religious leader when they are not? Isn’t there a word for that?
They did not care about the warning because they assumed that the jihadist will only attack Israel. They did not expect them to attack Egyptian police and soldiers.
hypothetically.
Based on the previous incidents where the jidadi terrorists operated with full knowledge of the Egyptian soldiers. Attacking Israel from the areas right next to the soldiers.
This resulted in the death of several Egyptian soldiers a year or so ago.
Ahram Online: Renewed clashes hit Egypt’s Sinai:
Thousands of Gazans stranded after Egypt border closure:
Brotherhood urges reassessment of Camp David, denounces calls for violence:
lysias, from your link:
there was a reference to Tawfik Okasha in the latimes blockquote in the main post comparing him to a glen beck character. and now this just in:
link to english.ahram.org.eg
How exactly is a reassessment of the Camp David treating going to protect Egypt and its borders?
it’s for egypt to decide how best to protect it’s borders, along with deciding how best to protect the integrity of their sovereignty over the sinai.
they made a deal, israel didn’t keep their end of the bargain.
Annie, if you are going to respond to me, please respond to the question. How would reassessing Camp David help the security of the Egyptian border. The peace treaty has allowed for over 30 years of peace on the border.
It is not the first time Israel is launching deadly attacks killing egyptian military. Israeli false flag attacks are a warning to Mursi: do not change our agreements and let the Rafah border closed. Maybe Egyptian high rank mlitary are in the coup too. Israel, the ruling Egyptian mlitary and in a broader sense the USA are interested to tear down the Morsi government. The poor beduins in the Sinai are paying the price. We have now in each muslim country such unidentified gunmen spreading chaos everywhere. There is no arab spring anymore but war and bloodshed as it was in Libya, now in Syria. How comes that armed mobs are sowing chaos to overturn governments in a complete illegal and criminal way. Iraq is destroyed by two illegal invasions. But the most corrupt and despotic Saudi Arabia and ally of Israel and the USA has no such illegal armed mob! Well think of it.
uggghhhh, How does claiming Israeli is constantly perpetrating false flag operations, against itself and others helping the Palestinians?
Israel doesn’t give a hoot about the Morsi government, all they care about is peace on the border.
Ever since I renewed my American passport at the US consulate in Jerusalem a year and a half ago and included in my application my email address I have received periodic warnings about raised alerts regarding travel in Israel and surrounding countries.
Last Friday, August 3, 2012, I received one such alert that included the following:
U.S. citizens are encouraged to take precautions in travel to the Sinai.
There have been multiple kidnappings in the Sinai of U.S. citizens over
the past four years, and kidnappings of foreign tourists in the Sinai
have increased since January 2012. In May 2012, two U.S. citizens were
kidnapped and released a day later; in July 2012, two U.S. citizens were
kidnapped and released a few days later. While thus far all known
foreign kidnap victims in 2012 have been released unharmed, the danger
of overland travel in the Sinai is significant. Overland travel from
Israel to the Sinai in particular is strongly discouraged. U.S.
government personnel are currently prohibited from traveling to the
Sinai, except by air to Sharm El Sheikh. Overland travel by U.S.
government employees anywhere in the Sinai outside of Sharm El Sheikh is
prohibited.
“Ever since I renewed my American passport at the US consulate in Jerusalem a year and a half ago…”
You’re a smart cookie, yonah. Being ready to shoot out of there like a rocket is smart strategy. Why should you stay and bear the consequences with those filthy mizrahi and Ethiopians? Always good to have another option if your preferred policy, transfer and annexation, doesn’t work out.
vivarto August 9, 2012 at 4:24 pm
“From all my research ..” …snorting ziocaine
“I am not aware of any serious consequences on the general population of the “millions of Palestinians blocked in Gaza”” Snorting ziocaine does have that effect
““From all my research ..” …snorting ziocaine”
No. Speaking Zionese.
Talknic, no one has to snort Ziocaine. It’s like an endorphin or a hormone, you make it yourself given proper frame (ramshackle as hell) of mind, training and stimulus.
I guess the other point is the cost of occupying Sinai with military force. Annie made the comment on population size of the Sinai versus Gaza. But take a look at the maps of Israel versus Sinai in size and scope, or Egypt versus Sinai.
It is not an easy task for Egypt(or Israel to do). Consider when The Egyptians and Israelis fought in the Sinai, you were dealing with two armies, front lines, hundreds of miles of support lines. But policing the Sinai is a thankless job. Who will pay for it? Does Egypt have the cash to police the Sinai? And they would be looking for a few men in a gigantic desert. Not an easy task.
As Annie and other have noted, the border guards on the Egyptian side of the border are corrupt Beduin tribes(but this is true on the Israeli side as well), who traffic with one another with drugs, organs and the like. The Egyptian military would like to police this mess with as much success our military would be if we decided to “police” the Mexican border with America.
Hamas faces their own salafist problem as Morsi does. The term Islamist is kind of amorphous. There is a huge distinction between Edrogan of Turkey and the Salafist in Gaza and in the Sinai….These groups do not recognize Morsi or Hamas, anymore than they did Sadat.
Ultimately, it is my hunch that events like the Sinai attacks may sever to moderate the views/policies of Morsi and Hamas. The Gilad Shalit-Hamas trade also served to moderate Hamas and their relations with Israel. It is a profound mistake for Israeli lovers(myself included) to lump all Islamists together, just as Israeli lovers make the same mistake in defining Islamism as a monolithic force.
Salafism is as much an enemy of Morsi as it is for Hamas or Israel. I would never have believed the three would share the same enemy.
You are right that the Bedouin tribes in the area are corrupt. But they don’t trade in organs!
Those are false allegations. Not because these Bedouins are too “moral” and would not do such thing. They would for sure do it for enough money. The problem is that it is not medically possible under the conditions.
viv, debunking you is too easy
link to cnn.com
Annie etc. Great reads over at Race for Iran, Prof Cole’s Informed Comment on Syria and “Top Ten Differences between white terrorist and others”
Suspected Jewish-Canadian student arrested by the Egyptians in connection with the killing of border guards. From Times of Israel:
Egypt arrests Canadian student in connection to Sinai terror attack
David Edward entered the country hours before Sunday night’s incident, had ID papers belonging to somebody else
By Asher ZeigerAugust 8, 2012, 6:33 pm0
Egyptian authorities arrested a Canadian student on Wednesday, suspected of involvement in Sunday night’s terror attack that killed 16 Egyptian policemen near the Israel-Egypt-Gaza border, AFP reported.
Officials said that David Edward entered the country on Sunday, hours before the Sinai attack, and was in possession of another person’s Egyptian identity card when he was arrested. He reportedly took pictures of armored personnel vehicles (APVs).
The Canadian Embassy in Egypt refused to confirm or deny the report of Edward’s arrest.
Sunday night’s terror attack on Egyptian soil also penetrated Israel, when an APV commandeered by the terrorists broke through the border and sped towards Kibbutz Kerem Shalom. Israel used an air attack to destroy the APV.
link to timesofisrael.com
That should teach Jews and any other sensible Western person to stay away from Egypt. The Egyptian idiots are already suffering from the loss of tourists. Several million people lost their jobs because of that. Now with thin nonsense provocation, they are going to lose more.
A Jewish student from Canada. What a great idea!
Surely this will appease the antisemitic crowd.
Maybe the student watched seasons 1 through 5 of Burn Notice on Netflix, pounded down a few shots of starbucks, and went rambo through the Sinai. He sounds like a nut job, kind of like the other US nut job Jewish student who was posing with the Tahir crowd revolutionary students. There was a young US college student of oriental extraction who joined the libyan revolutionary movement last year.
Maybe I’m just a conservative old fogie, but taking a vacation in the middle of a revolution seems kind of weird to me. I could understand if these people were Egyptian or Syrian or Libyan, but to take a bunch of pics for Facebook? It strikes me as bizarre. Imagine some French guy showing up in the middle of the US Civil War for his French Vacation to catch the latest carnage in Georgia.
I must admit to having a very strong urge to see Egypt myself and explore the ruins. I would love to see Syria and the great city of Allepo one day. But will wait till the current mess settles way down. I watched Anthony Zimmer and Anthony Bourdain do their shows from Syria and Lebanon respectively with awe. I understand the wanderlust of the young, but it seems completely nuts as well… like those poor US students captured as pawns by the Iranians. The Iranians must have thought it absurd that US students would “travel” to war torn Iraq for fun and adventure even though it was the truth.
I don’t believe they should teach Jews to stay away from Egypt as you put it. A dialogue between peoples is never a bad thing. But I think their parents should refuse to let some of these nut jobs get their passport IMHO.
He sounds like a nut job, kind of like the other US nut job Jewish student who was posing with the Tahir crowd revolutionary students.
hmm, there’s something very fishy about this story. He was arrested in El Arish, according to reports.
so, if he entered the country on sunday and was arrested in al arish there’s a strong possibility he didn’t arrive from canada via cairo. i’ve been to al arish..not exactly what one might consider a ‘destination’ in and of itself. a tad off the beaten path and not the kind of place one just decides to drop in for the local flavor straight off the plane. so, he probably arrived from israel.
He reportedly took pictures of armored personnel vehicles
i wonder if he snapped any photos of the armored personnel vehicles the terrorist stole from the egyptians and plowed thru the border with. wouldn’t that be a hoot.
Vivarti,
At this point it is much more interesting that David Edward was travelling with somebody else’s ID and was nabbed by Egiptian security. Implying that Egyptians had it in for him because he was Jewish is a clumsy diversion tactic on you behalf. He may have picked ID up on the sidewalk, and was about to hand it in, but I doubt it.
Not enough for a laugh, but a smile. So this Jewish idiot from Canada managed to organize a mega terrorist attack on Egyptian and Israeli forces.
Hahahha, actually now I am laughing.
I have a pretty good imagination, but hard as I try, I cannot imagine how he could possibly pull off such a stunt.
I don’t know what to think about his fake ID. We can speculate forever, especially since we don’t even know if it is true. Assuming that it is, we can still speculate forever.
Funny, now you guys quote Arutz Sheva like it is a bastion of journalistic integrity, Annie I think had a different opinion here
link to mondoweiss.net
Vivarto,
Jews and other sensible Western persons? Either ‘other’ is superfluous or you are a comma short in the upper paddock.
As it happens I have an American Jewish acquaintance who has just returned from three weeks in Luxor with no ill effects. It is true that he travels in pursuit of delicias filiorum hominem in the words of Ecclesiastes II (8), but that hardly provides any extra dimension of protection.
I think you must mean delicias filiorum hominum.
“Either ‘other’ is superfluous or you are a comma short in the upper paddock.”
No vivarto is simply a common, gutter-trawling zio bigot.
That should teach Jews and all other sensible Western person to stay away from Egypt.
is this more clear?
I have traveled in Afghanistan, and was not killed. This does not mean that it was safe…
Poor Woody, run out of arguments, and has to resort to insults.
Yes, Woody, anyone who does not share your views is definitely a bigot, with gutter, and zio.
Now to be sure, I proudly support Zionism, the Jewish national liberation movement. Just like I support the Kurdish nationalism, and the Tibetan struggle.
Jews definitely need their own state, because the world is full of antisemites of whom you are a fine example.
vivarto,
You must be new around here. If you weren’t, you’d know that I engage in insults as a matter of course, mostly for the chuckles. No “resorting” about it.
“…the world is full of antisemites of whom you are a fine example.”
LOL. Sorry, but you’re wrong, newbie. I know you really, really REALLY want to pretend that anyone who hates what the zionists are doing to the Palestinians MUST be an anti-semite. I mean, why wouldn’t you???? It’s like a giant “get out of moral condemnation” card. You and your state can do whatever it wants, regardless of how evil it, and when someone calls you on it, you just whip it out and, voilà, instant non-accountability.
But the sad reality is is that I really don’t give a damn what religion or ethnicity any one is. I know and am related to plenty of Jews. They’re no better, no worse and no more interesting than any other group, so the idea of singling them out for hate or love is lost on me. Jews as a whole are not that particularly interesting. If I’m gonna hate, I prefer to hate based on merit.
But if you need the crutch of thinking someone hates you for who you are rather than for what you believe and do, well, I guess you do what you need to until you can seek professional mental heath care. I hear there are wonderful pharmaceuticals these days for people suffering paranoia and the other conditions you appear to exhibit. See you doctor to see what drugs are right for you.
“That should teach Jews and all other sensible Western person to stay away from Egypt.
is this more clear?”
So you assume that every Jew is a sensible Western person???? Nothing too bigoted about that…
Lysias, You are correct of course. Thank you.
Vivarto, No not really, because it still implies that Jews are necessarily sensible Western persons. I think you mean that Jews should stay away and sensible Western persons should do the same. “…Jews, and all other sensible Western persons…” would be more clear.
Lysias, by the way, I liked your much earlier extrapolation elsewhere on Rome and Rhodes.
so did I, the lessons of the Iliad: that was fabulous
“Jews definitely need their own state, because the world is full of antisemites of whom you are a fine example.”
How dare you! Some of Woody’s best friends are Jews, and I proudly and humbly count myself among them.
And if Woody was an anti-Semite, would he have adopted the name of a famous Jewish comic, writer and director?
Now, I ask you, vivarto, honestly, what the hell?
“so did I, the lessons of the Iliad: that was fabulous”
And by the time it was done, you felt so wine-dark and many-throated, you could have plotzed?
“That should teach Jews and any other sensible Western person to stay away from Egypt. ”
Yeah, because Western powers NEVER (except for always) arrest innocent people in the wake of terrorist incidents. (And that’s assuming that this person is innocent, which, given the possession of someone else’s ID and photos of APVs is still an open question.)
anymore on this David Edward angle? been trying to find more information.
breaking news on egypt, mursi has just sacked all military leadership..draft coming