Avnery– leftist, and 89– warns of the ‘natural increase’ of Arabs threatening Jewish majority

Robert Fisk talks to Uri Avnery, 89, whom he characterizes as a great “leftist warrior.” But I wonder: Can a leftist speak so openly of the demographic threat posed by an Arab majority? Can these values be credited in the west at a time when Americans are accepting a non-white president elected with a minority of ‘the white vote’? Avnery seems very old school to me.

And as for the political solution that Avnery endorses, the two state solution, It is now 30 years old, as he states. Can a paradigm survive 30 years without being effected? Or does it crumble away? Readers know I waffle on this point, out of respect for international consensus. But how many young Palestinians believe in a fragmented Palestinian state on 1/5th of the land? These people live in a one-state reality. And how many Israelis believe in Palestinian sovereignty in a viable state? Mine are doubtful questions; but meantime, American leaders such as Jeffrey Sachs parrot Avnery’s meme: We all know what the solution is. When it hasn’t been a solution for 30 years; why? Fisk/Avnery:

“If they [Israelis] annex the West Bank as they have annexed East Jerusalem,” he [Avnery]  says. “It doesn’t make much of a difference. The trouble is that in this territory which is now dominated by Israel, there are about 49 per cent Jews and 51 per cent Arabs – and this balance will become larger every year because the natural increase on the Arab side is far greater than the natural increase on our side. So the real question is: if this policy goes on, what kind of state will it be? As it is today, it is an Apartheid state, a full apartheid in the occupied territories and a growing apartheid in Israel – and if this goes on, it will be full apartheid throughout the country, incontestably.”

The Avnery argument goes bleakly on. If the Arab inhabitants are granted civil rights, there will be an Arab majority in the Knesset and the first thing they will do is change the name ‘Israel’ and name the state ‘Palestine’, “and the whole exercise of the past 130 years has come to naught.” Mass ethnic cleansing is impossible in the 21st century, he says – or hopes – but there is no discussion about the demography.

“There is a suppression. We are supposed to push this out of our consciousness. Not one single political party speaks about this problem. The word ‘peace’ does not appear in any election manifesto, except for the little Meretz party – neither the Opposition or the Coalition. The word ‘peace’ has completely disappeared.

“And The Left in Israel? They have been more or less hibernating – since the Left was killed off by Ehud Barak in 2000. He came back from Camp David – as self-proclaimed leader of the ‘peace camp’ – and told us ‘we have no partner for peace’. This was a death blow. It was not Netanyahu who said this, but the leader of the Labour Party. This was the end of Peace Now.”

Then the optimist resurfaces as the clouds darken the sea beyond Avnery’s seventh floor apartment in Tel Aviv. “When I met Arafat in 1982, the terms were all there. The Palestinian minimum and maximum terms are the same: a Palestinian state next to Israel, comprising the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem as a capital, small exchanges of land and a symbolic solution to the refugee problem. But this lies on the table like a wilted flower. It is looking at us every day… we have already given up the Gaza Strip – but in order to take hold of the West Bank – the same way (Menachem) Begin gave up all of Sinai in order to get all of Palestine.”

Avnery is convinced that Hamas would accept the same

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.
Posted in Israel/Palestine

{ 61 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. Don says:

    Good news from France…maybe you are right, Phil…about things starting to change…

    France to back Palestinian bid for UN status
    link to bbc.co.uk

    On the other hand…Jim Crow dies hard…

    Racism evident behind some US social media
    link to bbc.co.uk

    • RoHa says:

      Australia is to abstain.

      This is in spite of the fact that the Very Wonderful Julia Gillard lives with an Israeli agent, and that the Opposition is bought and paid for by Israel.

      (When That Nice Mr. Rudd showed a bit of backbone in protesting about Israeli misuse of Australian passports, Julie Bishop Of The Mad Staring Eyes supported Israel. Very shortly afterwards Nice Mr. Rudd was told his services were no longer required.)

  2. Uri Avnery is a marvellous distinguished man, but at heart he’s a Zionist.

    To be sure the most harmless left-wing Zionist, but none the less a man who speaks of his service in the Nakba of ’47 and ’48 with pride and affection. A man who who was close emotionally if not politically to extreme right-winger Menachem Begin. A man who knew and worked with Golda Mier, the lady who spoke endlessly of peace yet never saw a reckless assassination plot or cruel refugee camp aerial bombing she didn’t approve of.

    In a sense Uri Avnery embodies just how hideous Zionism is. Even someone as kind, intelligent, thoughtful and compassionate as he still finds ways to justify land theft and ethnic cleansing. It was all done from the purest motives don’t you see…?

    • David Samel says:

      Steve, that’s a great summary. I’ve been reading Avnery for years, and highly value his insight and analysis, but he is stuck in this two-state mindset and never wavers. His bottom line is that a Jewish majority state must be preserved, and that blinds him to questions of feasibility and injustice. This interview doesn’t surprise me at all, but it also does not make his other contributions less valuable.

    • Asa’d Abu Khalil (aka ‘The Angry Arab’) has always said this, and always refused to link to Avnery’s articles on his site. Avnery may be a ‘soft Zionist’ but he is still a Zionist, 100%

      But as you say, his example shows just how it is logically and morally impossible to be a ‘moderate Zionist’. Zionism is about the superiority of one ‘race’ over another. There is no place for Palestinians in the Zionist world, certainly not as anything approaching equals. Zionism=racism.

    • Walid says:

      Steve, he may have mellowed from the early ethnic cleansing days you mentioned but at the end of his long and colourful journey, his calls for peace and for 2 states are out of concern for Israel’s interests, not those of the Palestinians. Half the water he is using in his TA flat is stolen water so that makes him just as guilty as any other Israeli.

  3. pabelmont says:

    Avneri is caught in the dream (and contradictions) of nice, humane, “liberal” Zioinsts: they want to keep what they stole (by terrorism and war) in 1945-1950, they want to regard it all as “legitimate”, proper, something-not-to-be-attacked-unless-by-antisemites, etc. And at the same time they want to relinquish some or all of West Bank, Golan, East Jerusalem, Gaza even though these were acquired the same way — by terrorism and war. and they want to feel good about all this, and they want the world to approve of all this.

    I should explain my “terrorism” suggestion: The settlements are, in my opinion, creations carried out under the protection of IOF, and thus a product of state-terrorism. The “war” of 1967 accomplished only the occupation. The settlements are a “terrorist” project.

    Several years ago, Uri Avneri spoke about I/P in a NYC-UWS synagogue. In the question period, I asked about the illegality (and removal) of the settlements under the rules of the Fourth Geneva Convention (which prohibits settlement of an occupied territory by nationals of the occupier). Avneri brushed me off, saying the Fourth Geneva Convention (“G-IV”) is a dead-letter.

    Thinking back, I recall Arafat telling the world that the PLO charter’s description of Israel as illegitimate was “caduc”, French for “null and void”. Arafat was saying that although the words were still in the document, they were a dead-letter. Avneri was saying that the anti-settlements part of G-IV was “caduc”, a “dead-letter”.

    So it goes, though I keep wishing the international community would stand up on its legs and bellow (mere saying is not enough) that, like Frodo, “G-IV lives.” How else will there be a “just and lasting peace” as demanded by UNSC 242 (1967)?

    • AhVee says:

      “‘natural increase’ of Arabs threatening Jewish majority”

      Never mind Israel, just hold your hand out and go beg the U.S. for the money to fund a ginormous artificial island, to be built right out into the ocean. (I know you have plans for that lying around) don’t let the fact that you’d be building your Israel-extension into international waters bother you, that just means waters that don’t belong to you yet, easily changed, run a campaign titled “the Island G-d promised us”, or something along those lines, I’m sure red-faced republican racists are glad to open their diminishing wallets and fork over whatever they can afford to give, after all, you’re G-d’s chosen, and enough of them are already volunteering for your military service. Maybe they’ll even help build it?
      If it gets really bad, there’s always the Nakba 2.0 option, worked the first time, right?

      I find it telling that Avnery would warn of this in the first place, if he was half as pro-Palestinian as he likes to pretend he is, he’d be breaking out into jubilation at this realization. In fact, I’d expect to find a similar statement printed on a leaflet placed inside the home of a newly arrived settler family. “Remember to be fruitful and multiply, lest those stinkin’ Arabs outdo us. Have a nice day. p.s. You’ll find your Kalashnikov under the right side of the mattress and bullets under the pillows.”

  4. seafoid says:

    I don’t see why the Palestinians should settle for 22% of the land.

    • Kathleen says:

      that is not going to happen

      • Taxi says:

        Not in a million years.

        • seafoid says:

          Ma sha Allah . I do not believe gaza is viable long term. Most zionists live between ashkelon and haifa. There is lots of space .

        • Inanna says:

          Nor for a ‘symbolic’ right of return.

        • MHughes976 says:

          These points all illustrate the fact that the classic 2ss, the heart’s desire of the West, is screamingly unfair as a way of dividing territory and resources between Israeli and Palestinian claimants and of course the scream gets louder when you think of the way the Palestinian territory would be non-sovereign and divided into bits of ‘pizza’ that could be consumed one by one. I still think the 2ss may come about if there is enough international pressure, but even so it would be profoundly unstable. Partly because no Palestinian could in heart believe it fair, partly because no true Zionist could consent to an arrangement that makes non-Jewish people, contrary to divine or historic mandates, into rightful inheritors of any part of the land.

        • seafoid says:

          I think Zionism is too rigid to have much of a future as a viable ideology.
          It’s based on outdated racist thinking and shares very little with modern thought elsewhere in the West. No other rich country runs a justice system like Israel’s.

  5. seafoid says:

    Israel is about to hit the wall

    link to haaretz.com

    “Israelis should be finally faced with two clear alternatives: if Labor and Yair Lapid will refuse to join the next Netanyahu government, the fiction that Israel’s right wing is moderate will be dismantled. Such a government would run into head-on conflict with the world at large, and four such years of conflict will make Israelis realize the price of the occupation.
    They will realize that they have to choose between a political ideology that will turn Israel into an internationally despised Pariah state and the forces of moderation that seek compromise with the Arab world”

    no reason why 1948 can’t be reopened

  6. marc b. says:

    i never knew that ‘leftism’ and the ‘logic’ of eugenics were mutually exclusive. seemed perfectly compatible back in the day.

    as for other biological considerations, see the confused/confusing but important

    link to nybooks.com

    on Raphael Falk’s, ‘Zionism and the Biology of the Jews’, whose English translation from the Hebrew original has yet to appear (Falk being billed as “one of Israel’s most prominent geneticists” in the article)

    As an Israeli, Falk’s motivation is directly connected to the political issue of Zionism and the claim of Jews for a national state:

    “In this book I wish to discuss two issues: the claim that there is a biology of the Jews on the one hand, and the attempts to integrate this claim into a consistent history of national-political Zionism, on the other hand.”

    For him the biology of the Jews enters not as a determinant of their cognitive abilities but as a tool for defining the Jews as a collection of related people who can lay a claim to a geopolitical existence, and for attempting a reconstruction of their history:

    “In the present world of scientific-technocratic reasoning, biological research is a major tool that demonstrates and validates links between present-day Jews and the land that for centuries has been, unequivocally, the glue of their socio-cultural bonds.”

    swell. ‘jewish biology’ is not a determinant of intelligence, but of jewish choseness generally and more particularly scientific evidence that jewish zionists are the divinely gifted heirs of eretz israel. how modest of falk.

    • Mooser says:

      “collection of related people who can lay a claim to a geopolitical existence, and for attempting a reconstruction of their history”

      Crap, there goes the intelligence exceptionalism! Am I to be left nothing? Another words, the prime requisite of Judaism is insanity, doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
      I’d much rather work on constructing a good future. Do that, and you’ll get a positive reconstruction of history as a bonus!

      • RoHa says:

        “Crap, there goes the intelligence exceptionalism! Am I to be left nothing?”

        You’ve still got all those socio-cultural bonds glued (mysteriously) by land.

        “I’d much rather work on constricting a good future.”

        Like-minded Jews unite; you have nothing to lose but your socio-cultural bonds.

        • Mooser says:

          “I’d much rather work on constricting a good future.” (sic)

          Well, then, you’ve certainly changed from the RoHa I thought I knew and loved. Maybe you should change your handle to “BoHa” (boa). Sorry, I tell jokes like that so I can hear my dad’s voice in my head roll its eyes, and say “That one was ‘strictly from hunger’, boychik.”
          Sorry for wandering, but last night, the scent of kreplach in a bowl of chicken broth opened the remembrance of times past to me.

        • RoHa says:

          Whooooops!

          I wish all my typos were so entertaining.

    • ToivoS says:

      Marc b. Confused and confusing is a very good description of Lewontin’s NYB article. I fear the old man is well into dementia but my recollections of him close to his prime was that he never did have a good understanding of modern molecular genetics. He makes a couple of big bloopers here — confusing ribosomes with mitochondria and mitochondrial RNA with it’s DNA. He obviously has little understanding of modern human genetic studies (technically called haplotype mapping) so is only able to talk about maternally or paternally inherited genes (and poorly at that).

      For the uninformed I recommend avoiding this essay.

      • marc b. says:

        righto, toivo, the article is no good on genetics. but it is important from an ideological standpoint, the ‘best’ in search of the israel gene.

      • gamal says:

        odd that the halotype mappers seem to agree with him, see below, could you be more specific, as i am uninformed i dont get where Lewontin bloops, if you quote his offending passages and explain his errors i would be grateful, the gist of the article Marcb links to can hardly be argued with can it, what do these notions of the meaning of ancestry amount to, he is quite right in that is he not.

        “Over the past century, genetics has experienced a tension between the view that racial and ethnic categories are biologically meaningful and the view that these social classifications have little or no biological significance. That tension continues to inform genomics and is evident in the assembly of biological collections and sequence databases that seek to approximate the genetic variation found in human populations. Although social identities can be useful and convenient proxies of some biological features, for example, in ensuring that genomic resources capture a range of genetic variants found in most human……”
        link to genome.cshlp.org

        and

        Scientists warn of conceptual traps concerning “race” in new genetic map of human populations

        by Lee Herring, Public Affairs Office, and Mercedes Rubio, Minority Affairs Program

        Across the globe, the human genetic blueprint is 99.99 percent similar across individuals. But hopeful that the remaining variations may be predictive of an individual’s risk for particular disease and responsiveness to specific treatments, biotech researchers are inspecting these variations closely. The small remaining percentage of genetic variations notwithstanding, gene-based explanations for differences in complex social outcomes have been endemic to scientific and casual discourse since the 17th century.

        Unfortunately, often-oversimplified discourse could become more prevalent following recent findings of a biotech research team from the California-based Perlegen Sciences, Inc. The potential for over-simplification prompted the scientists to publicly reiterate ASA President Troy Duster’s warnings at a Washington, DC, AAAS Annual Meeting press conference on February 17. Duster urged scientists and the public alike to be alert to conceptual illusions in the data and their potential to appear to endorse a gene basis for the social construct of race.

        link to asanet.org

        • ToivoS says:

          Gamal I agree with all of the points that you are making. I was pointing out that at a technical level Lewontin doesn’t understand human genetics. I like his big picture, indeed, the evidence that is coming in today makes the case much more powerfully then anyone suspected a decade back.

          Mine was just a warning for any literate but scientifically naive person who is interested in understanding the science, avoid Lewontin.

  7. seafoid says:

    If Avnery is persona non grata then the only Israelis in public life who talk sense are non Jews like Hanin Zoabi or else humanists such as Amira Hass.

    The Israel Project has failed, in other words.
    “It does not matter what the goys think, it matters what the Jews do ” is wrong, and Israel is the proof.

  8. Taxi says:

    “Avnery seems very old school to me”.

    Yeah Robert Fisk’s an old codger too.

  9. giladg says:

    It is about time you started addressing what the 4/5 is and what it is not.
    Like most of the 4/5 is desert, or swamp (was back then). The West Bank and Gaza just happen to include the most fertile areas and most of the underground water. More than half of Israel today is the Negev desert. The bottom line is that the use of lie about historic Palestine is disingenuous and misleading.
    Israel is prepared to make land swaps in a future deal but the Palestinians don’t want the arid land, even if they received greater parcel compared to what they would need to give up on.

    • eljay says:

      >> The West Bank and Gaza just happen to include the most fertile areas and most of the underground water. … Israel is prepared to make land swaps in a future deal but the Palestinians don’t want the arid land, even if they received greater parcel compared to what they would need to give up on.

      What are those crazy Palestinians thinking? Zionists used terrorism and ethnic cleansing to create a supremacist “Jewish State” in part of Palestine, and then spent the next 60+ years stealing and colonizing most of the rest of Palestine, all the while oppressing Palestinians and destroying their lives and livelihoods.

      And now that the supremacist “Jewish State” is offering to keep some of the best land it has stolen in exchange for some of its shittiest land (whatever happened to the blooming desert, BTW?), the Palestinians won’t play nice.

      And this upsets poor giladgeee! :-(

      Too funny…

    • Mooser says:

      “More than half of Israel today is the Negev desert.”

      Yeah, maybe you can corner the market in sand.

    • marc b. says:

      It is about time you started addressing what the 4/5 is and what it is not.

      More than half of Israel today is the Negev desert.

      so go take it up with g-d. it was he who gifted you the sandbox, wasn’t it?

    • ToivoS says:

      giladg Israel is prepared to make land swaps in a future deal

      Yes of course they are. They are willing to trade worthless desert land for valuable WB land as you so accurately portrayed the problem in your first paragraph.

      Is this called Zionist logic? You have lived your whole lives embracing the oxymoron “democratic Zionism” that you have lost your ability to perceive egregious contradictions as you so aptly demonstrate here.

    • seafoid says:

      The West Bank is not “mostly fertile”. Half of it is desert.
      Galilee has the best land.

  10. sardelapasti says:

    Well, duh.

    The “2-state solution” is by definition a Zionist
    solution. It entails the presence of a “Jewish” state where it has no business. Period.
    That said, anyone agreeing to the “2-state”, either as a solution or as a compromise for lack of power, necessarily has to discuss the “demographic threat”. Once you accept a “Jewish state” you must discuss the “demographic threat”, i.e. the fact that a majority of citizens / residents in a state defined by its Master Race may be irregular.
    Simple logic.

  11. Mooser says:

    “Readers know I waffle on this point, out of respect for international consensus”

    Yup, you studied literature, not history, at college. So it’s no wonder.

    • Mooser says:

      Sorry, just a joke, for all I know, you may have carried two majors, and done ROTC and captained the gridiron 11 in between bouts of scholastic excellence.
      It’s just hard to get all respectful about the international consensus, having just finished “The Opium Wars”. (I lost, and haven’t a gram to my name.)

  12. HarryLaw says:

    Don, It would appear the UK government will also back the Palestinian bid at the UNGA see Huffington Post here link to huffingtonpost.co.uk

    • “It would appear the UK government will also back the Palestinian bid at the UNGA”

      Yes, but did you see the conditions? There would be no point in making the bid at all!

      “The British government is ready to back a Palestinian bid for statehood at the United Nations if President Mahmoud Abbas agrees not to challenge Israel over alleged war crimes, the Guardian has reported.”

      • American says:

        “if President Mahmoud Abbas agrees not to challenge Israel over alleged war crimes, the Guardian has reported.”..thankgodiam

        Abbas has refused to do that. The final draft of the Palestine bid from Abbas was submitted on Tuesday am without that change.

        link to haaretz.com
        Palestinians refuse clause in
        UN draft barring criminal charges against
        Israel
        Washington had sought to soften wording of draft resolution, but Palestinians submitted final proposal earlier Tuesday and have refused to discuss changes.

        American-Israeli efforts to soften the wording of the proposed United Nations General Assembly resolution regarding the recognition of a Palestinian state has failed, an Israeli official said on Tuesday.
        Haaretz has learned that the push did not succeed because the Palestinians refused to add a clause to the draft that would prevent them from filing criminal charges against Israeli officials at the International Criminal Court in The Hague. The General Assembly was due to vote on the proposal on Thursday.
        The Palestinians distributed the final draft of the General Assembly resolution early on Tuesday morning in New York and are refusing to pursue any further discussions on the matter.
        Over the past two days, the United States has made attempts to alter the wording of the resolution in order to minimize the political damage that will likely result from the General Assembly vote, in which the Palestinians are expected to garner a large majority.
        Earlier Tuesday, Haaretz reported that Israel had joined the American effort, and that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sent his special envoy, lawyer Isaac Molho, to Washington on Sunday to work on the issue along with senior Obama administration officials.
        A senior Israeli official involved in the international contacts to soften the wording of the resolution stated that the effort was too little, too late and had ended in failure. In his words, senior Obama administration officials contacted the chief of the Palestinian negotiating team Saeb Erekat on Wednesday and asked him to come to Washington urgently in order to negotiate the wording of the resolution, but Erekat refused.
        “Erekat told the Americans that he didn’t have any time and that he would speak with them after the [General Assembly] vote,” said the senior Israeli official.
        At the center of the Palestinians’ steadfast refusal to alter the resolution draft lies the demand that a clause be inserted into the resolution stating that the Palestinians would not approach the ICC in order to file charges against Israeli officials. ”

        These states are going with Palestine anyway:

        France to recognize Palestinian state at UN
        By Reuters | Nov.27,2012 | 1:59 PM | 2

        Palestinians win support from Spain, Swiss and Danes for UN vote
        By Haaretz and The Associated Press
        Nov.27,2012

        • eljay says:

          >> American-Israeli efforts to soften the wording of the proposed United Nations General Assembly resolution regarding the recognition of a Palestinian state has failed …
          >> Haaretz has learned that the push did not succeed because the Palestinians refused to add a clause to the draft that would prevent them from filing criminal charges against Israeli officials at the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

          Good news.

          >> These states are going with Palestine anyway:
          >> France to recognize Palestinian state at UN
          >> Palestinians win support from Spain, Swiss and Danes for UN vote

          More good news.

        • seafoid says:

          The Israelis have given up on this vote. They realise their traditional approach of thuggery and death threats can’t work on the whole population of Galut. Because they have nothing to offer anyone other than nihilism. Without the fig leaf of US support they are naked.

          link to haaretz.com

          Lieberman’s reply represents what he and his colleagues in the nine-man ministerial forum have realized in the past two days – that the Palestinian move in the United Nations is unavoidable, as is the humiliating and painful diplomatic defeat that Israel is about to suffer. Now Lieberman, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and their cabinet colleagues have to find their way home – both diplomatically and politically.

          He said that, despite the previous threats, Israel does not intend to cancel the Oslo Accords, either in whole or in part . The idea raised in the forum of nine ministers to announce the construction of 3,000 new housing units in the settlements was dropped because Netanyahu and the other ministers realized this would scuttle Israel’s public diplomacy efforts.
          “We examined different ways to react, but eventually the ministers realized that almost whatever we do will hurt Israel at least as much as it will hurt the Palestinians,” the senior diplomatic source said. “If the [Palestinian] Authority collapses, it will fall on our heads.

        • American says:

          “If the [Palestinian] Authority collapses, it will fall on our heads.”

          Yea, then Hamas will rise to the fore and the US can say they don’t recongize Hamas and won’t talk to them but the fact is they have and are…thru Egypt….the equivelent of saying …”I’m not speaking to John but tell for me this and that and so forth’.

  13. HarryLaw says:

    Avnery, Believes in a two state solution, as do the overwhelming majority of the International community and every political party in Palestine, even Hamas has indicated as such with its Hudna proposal, It is unfair to criticize Evnery on the grounds of his support for this solution, it goes without saying that an Israel based on the 67 borders will be a majority Jewish state for the forseeable future, that is a fact and providing the minorities are given equal rights it is the solution which could satisfy the greatest number of people.

    • Woody Tanaka says:

      “providing the minorities are given equal rights ”

      That’s always been the problem.

    • W.Jones says:

      “it is the solution which could satisfy the greatest number of people.”
      I think that refers to the right of return satisfying the millions of refugees as well as their third-world involuntary “host countries”. Unfortunately, Chomsky and other progressive Zionists tell us that is not “realistic”, and that what’s realistic is the millions remaining dispossessed outside their ancestral homeland … indefinitely. Ahh… the beautiful moments when radical idealist-geniuses teach us to accept those certain conditions of mass suffering that we learn are “realistic” and “pragmatic.”

      I stood on a hill and I accepted it – because it was “reality.” Then I walked down into it because I accepted it.

      • Mooser says:

        “Ahh… the beautiful moments when radical idealist-geniuses teach us to accept those certain conditions of mass suffering that we learn are “realistic” and “pragmatic.”

        I know what you mean, W. Jones. It has none of the mystery, sweep, and well, the good old je nes sais quoi of those telling us to accept conditions of mass suffering for religious reasons.

        • W.Jones says:

          You’re right Mooser, except that the religious reasons could be implicit, even if the person is not religious. Chomsky for example said how important the religious community was for him when he was young and the important role this played in his identity.

  14. radii says:

    the “jewish state” had better take the lesson from the 2012 election in the U.S. – demographics rule and Latinos finally arrived and the Republican Party is now looking for a quiet corner to go die in (or they have to radically change actual policies to survive) and israel is in the same boat – change or die … this apartheid, racist, militarist cruel supremacism cannot sustain … israel had better start planning for a pluralistic, secular state with equal treatment enforced and all the checkpoints gone, walls brought down, etc.

  15. RoHa says:

    “Readers know I waffle on this point,”

    We are supposed to pretend that we are consistent, we are always right, and stick firmly to our guns. But most people* are not consistent and not always right, and a lot of them know it. To see you acknowledge your own humanity in this regard is not only refreshing, it wins respect from me, if not from your other readers.

    (*Except RoHa and Hostage, of course.)

  16. Newclench says:

    Avnery is one of the best most authentic peace champions in the Middle East, never mind Israel. Which is why he gets along so well with Palestinians, from Arafat to grassroots Fatah and Hamas leaders. Attacking him for not being pro-Palestinian enough is kind of crazy. Why would you want pro-Palestinian Israeli peace leaders? If Israelis are going to make peace it will be because it is in their own interests, don’t you think? Do you imagine that peace will be imposed on Israelis by a leadership that is against the Israeli interest?

    • Mooser says:

      “Do you imagine that peace will be imposed on Israelis by a leadership that is against the Israeli interest?”

      Oh, yeah, if there’s one thing the Israelis know, it’s what’s in their interest. That’s how Israel ended up where it is.
      But at any rate, thanks for the frank admission that peace will have to be “imposed” on the Israelis. It’s what I’ve been saying all along. Now don’t start with all that “you want to wipe out the Israelis” junk. I think it can be done with a lot less violence than that. After all, the Israelis have shown us the way! We’ll just put them “on a diet”.

  17. cogit8 says:

    Demographic threat???
    I don’t get it, because I live in a country which, in the words of Zbig Brzezinski “follows like a stupid mule whatever the Israelis do”. Where is demography in this sad ‘bag of coins’ state of affairs? it appears that 2% of the population is having it’s way with the other 98%. So it doesn’t take 51% of a population to control the rest of society: all it takes is fanaticism and duplicity.
    Look at Canada, Great Britain, France, Germany, Micronesia: all these countries vote with Israel on important U.N. resolutions with no appreciable percentage of the population.
    It’s almost comical to see Jews in Israel worry about the “demographic time-bomb” (like the whites of South Africa). It’s a short-sighted racist position, not worthy of a true democracy of all it’s peoples or a full voting member of the United Nations.

    Throw the bums out of the UN and let the Palestinians in!

  18. Kathleen says:

    As Professor Mearsheimer and many others have so clearly pointed out the two state solution is over. Israel either holds down the apartheid fortress or the one state one vote only solution is birthed and Israel as a racist apartheid state is over.

    • Philip Weiss says:

      Thanks Kathleen, and thanks also for tipping me off to Up With Chris the other day. Phil

    • eljay says:

      >> Israel either holds down the apartheid fortress or the one state one vote only solution is birthed and Israel as a racist apartheid state is over.

      Either way, there will be plenty of blood before it’s all over.

      But maybe, just maybe, if we all sit around chatting about our “initial attitudes”, we can avert the bloodshed… ;-)

      • Mooser says:

        “the one state one vote only solution is birthed and Israel as a racist apartheid state is over.”

        And Palestine, which has one-man-one-vote, and struggles against Zionist revanchist terrorism and Zionist corruption, supported by outsiders, begins.
        I ask again, who will dis-arm the Zionists, and who will see that Zionist war and civil criminals will no longer prey on Palestine (most likely, for one thing, on those Jews who do try to live successfully with the new arrangement.) Tell me that, and I will support one-state with all my heart. Without that all I can hope for is the defeat and elimination of Zionism by a force strong enough to defeat it.

        I’m certain those who are seriously promulgating this change, “the one state solution” have considered these factors, and have answers, but I have not seen them. Which probably means they are right in front of my face, so if anybody could direct me, I’d appreciate a link to get me started. It’s just very hard for me to conceive of people who would use war crimes as a campaign gimmick, just shrugging and walking away because of votes.

        • eljay says:

          >> I ask again, who will dis-arm the Zionists, and who will see that Zionist war and civil criminals will no longer prey on Palestine … Tell me that, and I will support one-state with all my heart. Without that all I can hope for is the defeat and elimination of Zionism by a force strong enough to defeat it.

          Mooser, I gotta say that I don’t always “get” you, but it’s because of posts such as this one that I most definitely do respect you.