Palestinian teenager shot dead by Israeli soldiers in Hebron

Israel/Palestine
on 80 Comments
Khalil protest
Palestinians confront heavily armed Israeli soldiers in a nonviolent demonstration in Hebron, West Bank, on June 5, 2012. Photo by RRB/Activestills.org

Reports are coming in that a teenager in the Old City of Hebron has been killed by Israeli soldiers. 

The Associated Press has an initial run-down of the incident:

An Israeli police spokesman says a Palestinian was killed after he threatened officers near a holy site in the West Bank.

Spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says a group of police officers were on guard near the site in Hebron when a Palestinian approached, pulled out a handgun and aimed it at them in a threatening way.

Rosenfeld says the officers opened fire, killing the man. He says the gun later turned out to be fake. An investigation has been launched into the incident.

Ma’an News has more details:

Locals identified the victim as 16-year-old Muhammad Ziad Awad Salaymah.

A local doctor, hearing shots fired, rushed to the Salaymah neighborhood, near the Ibrahimi Mosque, but was unable to revive the teenager.

The doctor told Ma’an that local women were arguing with Israeli forces who were preventing them from reaching Salaymah.

“I followed the women, and when I felt his pulse, I found that he was dead,” the doctor said.

Israeli police said the victim appeared to be carrying a fake pistol.
 

Ma’an adds that “the shooting led to angry confrontations between residents and Israeli soldiers, who deployed to the area in large numbers firing tear gas and stun grenades.”

701080150
A photo of Salaymah being circulated on Twitter.
Reports are today was his birthday.
(Photo: @yafaislam)

An Arabic-language news report from Wattan TV confirms the story. “Witnesses said that the martyr was carrying a plastic handgun when an Israeli soldier fired six bullets at the martyr,” the report said.

A Reuters correspondent tweeted that Israeli soldiers “reportedly beat and tear gas local journalists covering the event.”

80 Responses

  1. seafoid
    December 12, 2012, 3:24 pm

    Martin Buber described Zionism in 1944 as a sacred project. I guess it was a very long descent from there to today in Hebron.

    • Kathleen
      December 13, 2012, 11:06 am

      A “sacred project” birthed in racism. Zionism from the beginning was based on the relocation slow ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. Only very sick individuals would call that ‘sacred’

  2. seafoid
    December 12, 2012, 3:25 pm

    I thi.k Hebron is where Judaism got lost.

    • Annie Robbins
      December 13, 2012, 1:37 pm

      i read this report yesterday morning, occurring prior to this killing.

      link to middleeastmonitor.com

      A number of Palestinians suffered from the suffocating effects of tear gas on Wednesday when Israeli forces swept into several towns around Hebron and fired gas canisters at local residents.

      Witnesses said that a number of Israeli soldiers entered Dora at 3am and clashes with local residents erupted. Israeli troops fired acoustic bullets and tear gas at the crowd. Around 20 Palestinians required first aid; some were taken to hospital for treatment.

      In Yatta, meanwhile, Israeli military vehicles prowled the streets for about three hours before leaving. There were no reports of any incidents even though the incursion was a blatant violation of an area governed by the Palestinian Authority. Local community activists said that such actions are done deliberately by the Israelis in order to provoke an angry reaction.

      The Israelis confiscated several cars and taxis in Beit Awwa. A number of drivers were fined.

      Further north, in Ramallah, twenty Israeli military vehicles and two armoured bulldozers entered the village of Beit Noba in order to demolish the home of Mohammed Al-Qadi. Neighbours said that the Al-Qadi family has 20 members and they will have no place to go when their house is destroyed.

      Palestinians protesting at an Israeli incursion in Na’leen near Ramallah were wounded, local medical sources reported. They were named as Ibraheem Soroor and Mohammed Al-Khawaja.

      the climate around hebron has been so fraught with tension lately. it’snot just this death that threatens an eruption. it’s almost seems as tho israelis pushing for another intifada.

  3. Dan Crowther
    December 12, 2012, 3:34 pm

    Wtf was this kid doin with a plastic gun?

    • Shingo
      December 12, 2012, 6:23 pm

      Wtf was this kid doin with a plastic gun?

      Don’t you mean, Wtf was this Palestinian kid doin with a plastic gun? If he’d been a Jewish kid, he wouldn’t have been even bothered.

      • Qualtrough
        December 13, 2012, 5:30 am

        I would not be so quick to accept the Israeli story that he had a plastic gun. It is entirely in the realm of possibility that it was planted, if it indeed even existed. The Israelis don’t have a stellar track record, everything they say should be looked at very sceptically.

      • justicewillprevail
        December 13, 2012, 6:14 am

        Agreed,. it sounds like classic Israeli post justification. Unless there is any evidence of a plastic gun, I wouldn’t believe a word of it. They have plenty of form in this department.

      • asherpat
        December 18, 2012, 4:01 am

        @justice, what “post-justification” is needed here? The young man clearly attacked a soldier.

      • Shingo
        December 18, 2012, 4:48 am

        The young man clearly attacked a soldier.

        The solider was clearly there illegally and carrying our acts of repression, intimidating, and dehumanization – every day, 24/7.

      • Cliff
        December 18, 2012, 6:02 am

        asherpat

        get off the young man’s ancestral land

        let his people go

        you hold them captive while your army aides in the theft of their land

        this young man was a civilian

        if he were a Hamas operative and killed a border guard – would you say that the Hamas operative MURDERED the border guard? would you rhetorically weep for the border guard?

        all of these events occur within the framework of Jewish colonialism that Palestinians live under

        if the roles were reversed, no Zionist Jew would give a shit about the reasons here

        they would say, this is about the occupation and colonization and it doesn’t matter if the kid had a toy gun or not, the kid is on HIS land and the soldier is the enemy of the people and holding the people down while the soldier’ government STEALS

        That is the moral center

        the details do not f-ing matter

        you and people like you make exceptions to dissect these incidents as if they exist in a vacuum without political subtext and historical context

        there are NO honest Zionists

      • talknic
        December 18, 2012, 7:04 am

        I wonder what the soldier said to provoke the attack?

        I don’t believe the video is genuine BTW. It’s the usual blurry, edited, crappolla Israel always puts out. High tech country? Hilarious stuff

      • Shingo
        December 18, 2012, 5:08 pm

        It’s the usual blurry, edited, crappolla Israel always puts out. High tech country? Hilarious stuff

        Yes, that’s the first thing that came to mind too. Why such a poor quality video?

      • Dan Crowther
        December 13, 2012, 8:10 am

        ” If he’d been a Jewish kid, he wouldn’t have been even bothered.”

        Agreed shingo – only, that’s kind of my point. You guys know I’m not arguing the situation, but doesn’t basic self preservation tell you, “don’t play with toy gun near armed trigger happy fascists?” I want to think they planted it on him. Either way, just horrible for his parents and family.

      • Kathleen
        December 13, 2012, 11:07 am

        That is the truth. Like a white kid wearing a hoodie in a white neighborhood and a black kid wearing a hoodie in a white neighborhood. Racism racism racism

      • asherpat
        December 18, 2012, 4:04 am

        @Kathleen, what’s the point of “racism” in this incident? You may claim that Israel is racist, that it’s presence in Hebron (or elsewhere) is illegal, etc. But we have a clear incident of an attack by a person on a soldier. Where is the racism in this incident?

      • Shingo
        December 18, 2012, 4:47 am

        You hasbrats just don’t get it do you?

        The presence of those soldiers and their duties (harassment and oppression) constitute nothing less than relentless every day acts of violence. AS is always the case with you supremacists, that’s a status quo you condone, yet you regard any resistance to it a an “attack”?

        And you then wonder why Israel is a pariah?

      • Cliff
        December 20, 2012, 2:19 am

        Your soldiers have no moral or legal authority.

        They are invaders, murderers, and criminals otherwise.

        They SHOULD be under attack. In this case a civilian was killed for no reason.

        But in the bigger picture – all Israeli soldiers are the enemy and should be under threat.

        That Palestinians have never been able to defend themselves but if they could do so sufficiently and with enough firepower, then they should absolutely combat Israeli Occupying Forces.

        Any people under occupation and colonization have a right to FIGHT THEIR INVADERS.

    • OlegR
      December 12, 2012, 6:56 pm

      It was a bit more fun then that.
      He approached the checkpoint near the Patriarch cave gave his id to one of the officers and while he turned his back to run a check on the id pulled the gun
      grabbed the officer by the neck and put the gun to his head.

      Then he was shot by the officers partner.

      In the US this would be called suicide by cop…

      • eljay
        December 12, 2012, 7:09 pm

        >> It was a bit more fun then that.

        Could you please explain what’s fun about the “border police” of the “Jewish State” patrolling Hebron, deep inside the West Bank (i.e., far outside of Israel)?

      • Avi_G.
        December 12, 2012, 7:25 pm

        In the US this would be called suicide by cop…

        Nice spin, but it’s a false comparison.

        When Jewish colonists point guns at Israeli soldiers, the threat is usually diffused by methods other than the use of lethal force.

        It has happened in the past.

        The point is that the lives of Palestinians are not worthy in the eyes of Zionists, Israeli or otherwise.

        Heck, if a vote at the UN is considered a terrorist threat — according to Tzipi Livni’s response to Palestinians winning Observer status — then a boy with a toy gun is a matter of state security.

        Spin it anyway you like. But comparing Israeli society and norms — where rules and laws are more lax (If you’re Jewish) — to US society is not only ludicrous, its disingenuous, to put it mildly.

        In Israel, a Jew can sweet talk his/her way out of or into situations involving Israeli authorities because it’s a far less formal society. The same goes for cutting corners and making one’s own rules. So to compare the reaction of Israeli authorities to US authorities is false because olga isn’t being honest about the social and cultural differences.

      • FreddyV
        December 13, 2012, 8:01 am

        ‘When Jewish colonists point guns at Israeli soldiers, the threat is usually diffused by methods other than the use of lethal force. ‘

        If events were as described (kid puts ‘gun’ to head of Border Policeman), lethal force should have been used if there was no alternative and it should also be used on settlers, but we do know that Israelis military and police are extremely well trained in such situations. I doubt the gun would have got anywhere near the policeman’s head and the kid would’ve been spitting his teeth on the sidewalk.

        I do have one question: Why did the colleague fire six shots? One round from a Glock is going to make a hell of a mess and incapacitate a would be assailant, let alone what the officer being attacked could do with hand to hand combat, unless he was asleep of course.

        It all sounds rather dubious to me………

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 12, 2012, 7:44 pm

        “It was a bit more fun then that.”

        “Fun”… pretty typical for your type.

        “In the US this would be called suicide by cop…”

        No it wouldn’t. The filth carrying out the occupation aren’t cops.

      • ToivoS
        December 12, 2012, 9:15 pm

        OlegR “suicide by cop”

        Recently I went back and looked at the lynching of Emmet Till. One of my first Google hits was to an essay about the man who killed him. He was a poor white man who reacted to Till’s very provocative actions and acted accordingly. I suppose you could say the Till committed suicide by KKK.

        This poor Palestinian boy, by those standards, committed suicide by IOF.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 12, 2012, 11:20 pm

        approached the checkpoint

        the ‘border’ was 35 miles away from this ‘checkpoint’. these checkpoints in illegally occupied territory are illegal as is this hideous occupation.

      • asherpat
        December 18, 2012, 4:34 am

        @Annie – which “‘border’ was 35 miles away from this ‘checkpoint’” please clarify.

      • justicewillprevail
        December 13, 2012, 6:17 am

        Oleg, is this what the IDF pay you for, to post idiotic and clearly false justifications for lethal violence, whilst laughing about it? The Occupation corrupts – here is the evidence, from your own sick mouth.

      • BillM
        December 13, 2012, 11:15 am

        The only slight flaw in that story (I mean other than the obvious flaw in the concept of someone attacking a group of heavily armed “Border” police with a plastic toy) is that the Israeli guard shot the kid 6 times. If the events were as described, and the kid was phyiscally next to and touching the other guard, then the woman who shot him would be on charges for reckless endangerment of a fellow officer for shooting so wildly. The 6 shots alone prove that there were no Israeli “border” police in the danger zone, casting suspicion on the entire rendition of events.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 13, 2012, 2:13 pm

        as i pointed out in another comment, the closest ‘border’ is 35 miles away.(that was according to a tweet by the WB al jazeera correspondent. i assume she knows the region.)

        more importantly i wanted to fill in more context about yesterday. (check my blockquote upthread). in the morning i read this link to 972mag.com

        discussed it here:

        link to mondoweiss.net

        the climate is important, this didn’t happen in a vacuum.

      • eljay
        December 13, 2012, 3:01 pm

        >> The only slight flaw in that story (I mean other than the obvious flaw in the concept of someone attacking a group of heavily armed “Border” police with a plastic toy) …

        The major flaw in the story is the one which has Israeli “border police” deep inside the West Bank, where Israel does not have a border.

        I’ve asked OlegR twice in this thread to explain what these “border police” are doing so far outside of Israel’s borders, but he appears to have scuttled off…

      • Annie Robbins
        December 13, 2012, 3:20 pm

        hey, anyone who has not read allison’s explosive new post, i recommend:

        Family of teenager killed in Hebron calls fake gun story a ‘fabrication’
        link to mondoweiss.net

    • radkelt
      December 12, 2012, 11:51 pm

      Whoa, hold the phone! Moon phase, Mayan Calendar mojo whatever, none of us has a clue as to what actually went down, but we’re ready to tear some sphincters. Lets hope that this is not what it appears to be and await further confusing details,
      perhaps leading to a rational assessment.

    • Basilio
      December 12, 2012, 11:55 pm

      He was 16 years old, not 36 years old or 46 years old, and I don’t believe he was pointing it at the soldiers. I think they made that up. They saw the plastic gun, and they assumed it was real and shot him, and had to explain themselves later.

  4. eljay
    December 12, 2012, 3:37 pm

    >> An Arabic-language news report from Wattan TV confirms the story. “Witnesses said that the martyr was carrying a plastic handgun when an Israeli soldier fired six bullets at the martyr,” the report said.

    Carrying a fake hand-gun in the vicinity of trigger-happy, supremacist “Jewish State” occupation forces is never a good idea.

    >> A Reuters correspondent tweeted that Israeli soldiers “reportedly beat and tear gas local journalists covering the event.”

    “Jewish State” occupation forces just can’t seem to leave well enough alone, turning a seeming “self-defence” moment into one of pure thuggery.

  5. Kathleen
    December 12, 2012, 4:35 pm

    Illegal occupying officers. What was the 16 year old thinking? Not blaming him but occupying soldiers are violent and murderous. They are not going to wait and ask him to put it down? Shoot and never ask. So so sad

  6. Egbert
    December 12, 2012, 5:44 pm

    The Israeli spokesperson says the person they killed was carrying a gun, so it must be true. It’s not as if they would take revenge for the humiliations of the previous day.

    • Elisabeth
      December 13, 2012, 2:55 am

      That was what crossed my mind too: The mighty Israeli deterrence had to be restored at all cost.

    • Accentitude
      December 13, 2012, 6:54 am

      “so it must be true”

      Hardly true at all. Just speculation. After all, it’s not like the Israelis have never lied about anything. They still can’t figure out why they massacred an entire family in Gaza!

  7. OlegR
    December 12, 2012, 6:58 pm

    link to haaretz.com

    Border Police shot dead a Palestinian man near the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron on Wednesday, after the man threatened one of the border guards with a toy gun.

    Initial reports indicate that the Palestinian man pounced on a border guard stationed near the Tomb of the Patriarchs, pushed him to the ground and pulled a gun at him. At that moment, a female border guard that was at the scene shot him and killed him. Later, it was revealed that the gun was a fake.

    Following the incident, riots erupted at the scene.

    • eljay
      December 12, 2012, 7:05 pm

      >> Border Police shot dead a Palestinian man near the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron …

      Thanks OlegR. Could you please explain what “border police” of the “Jewish State” are doing in Hebron, deep inside the West Bank (i.e., far outside of Israel)?

      Thanks.

    • Shingo
      December 12, 2012, 7:52 pm

      Yeah right.

      An unarmed Palestinian man just decided it woud be a good idea to pounce on armed border guard, knowing full well that the other guard, also armed would carry out an obvious response and shoot him.

      Makes perfect sense.

      • gamal
        December 12, 2012, 9:12 pm

        arent they always attacking armed squads of soldiers with axes, and such like, its an old and i feel utterly believable story, after all the Muhammad al-Dura story, where Palestinians murdered a little boy just to make Israel look bad, is also totally believable, occupation may be a bit wrongish, i myself am against it, in case you were wondering, but in every instance of brutal repression we find a nice little just so story that exculpates the occupation forces and the occupation and places the blame, in a what would you do kind of a way on the dead, if only Palestinians would behave they wouldnt have to do these things, which really upsets them and sometimes leaves them unable to forgive Palestinians for making them do it. These border guard guys are almost ready for the NYC and LA police departments, just need to get rid of the inappropriate guilt and learn to love their work.

        Look he had a (plastic) gun, what a relief, and that three year old shot in the chest while standing between his fathers legs in Gaza, in the doorway of a garage, by a passing patrol when no demonstrations or confrontation was going on? his first name was Fares, during in the first intifada? who cares there is probably a perfectly good explanation, “you must destroy them when they are little”, i mean its not like Israeli’s are without humour or anything.

        Perhaps Sibby can tire us with definitions or some one point out how wrong irritation is, or raised voices or…..nationalism or religion or coffee that doesnt take like dog piss…..

    • Basilio
      December 12, 2012, 11:57 pm

      This story doesn’t make sense- typical Israeli “pravda” propaganda. So this clean looking kid who was 16 jumps on guards when he only has a toy gun?
      That sounds like garbage. It was murder, and the Israelis probably discussed what their common story would be. There’s something called “karma”, and a price will be paid.

      • SimoHurtta
        December 13, 2012, 6:34 am

        Indeed. The Israeli gruppenführers on check-points and in demonstrations must have a collection of plastic pistols and knives in their pockets to be planted every time this kind of “unexplained” murder happens. With such plastic guns it is easy to compose a self defense story to cover a murder and war crime.

        It is more than certain that Israel has cameras at the checkpoints, also at this in question. Why do they not show evidence in form of pictures and videos of this incident? Israel doesn’t normally hesitate if they have video evidence supporting their story. Maybe because it did not happen like Israelis now claim. Lets hope the Palestinian journalist got pictures of that Israeli check point crew to be used in future when these murders are in front of courts.

  8. LanceThruster
    December 12, 2012, 7:10 pm

    Toy guns make security forces as nervous as real ones.

    So do rocks, and flags, and upraised fists, and chants, and headscarves, and angry looks, and….

    • Eva Smagacz
      December 13, 2012, 4:45 am

      Toy guns make security forces as nervous as real ones.

      So do rocks, and flags, and upraised fists, and chants, and headscarves, and angry looks, and….

      …………..breathing

    • Kathleen
      December 13, 2012, 11:11 am

      nailed it

  9. chinese box
    December 12, 2012, 7:28 pm

    I’ve often wondered why the Israelis allow this Hebron situation to continue. The settlers there give Israel some of the worst PR imaginable. If they moved them out of there (which would be easy to do), they could go about their settlement project in a less obvious way (not that I want to give them any ideas).

    • SimoHurtta
      December 13, 2012, 7:45 am

      Well Hebron and the extreme Israeli Jewish right wing nationalists is the best what has happened to Palestinians. No more Israel can pretend to be the victim and the poor little democracy in defense. Israeli Jewish racism and cruelty is now so obvious, that the pro-Israeli counter propaganda has less and less effect. The so called Israeli leftists and centrists were more clever in the past. They managed rather successfully to hide the effects of occupation and the Israeli Zionist strategy in the robbery of lands. Though they did (=allowed) exactly the same that is now done.

      Lieberman and his merry company are worth more than 100,000 Qassams and several divisions of trained soldiers. For Palestinians not for the “Jewish” state.

  10. Qualtrough
    December 13, 2012, 5:42 am

    Several people have commented here about the different treatment meted out to Israelis and Palestinians by Israeli authorities. This difference was very starkly in evidence recently:

    November 20: “Israeli man with ax attacks US embassy in Tel Aviv” Several warning shots were fired, and although a security guard was injured the attacker was arrested unharmed by police.

    December 3: “Palestinian ‘with axe’ killed by Israeli forces in West Bank” This man was followed by security for looking suspicious, and then chased until the vehicles collided. He then allegedly came at the Israelis wielding an ax and was shot dead.

    In case anyone missed it:

    Case 1: Israeli attacks an embassy wielding an ax–warning shots fired, captured unharmed.

    Case 2: Palestinian chased and rammed because he looks suspicious, then allegedly approached soldiers carrying an ax–shot dead, no warning shots.

  11. Accentitude
    December 13, 2012, 5:49 am

    According to link to facebook.com, the kid had celebrated his birthday in school with his classmates the day before and on the day he was killed, he was on his way to the bakery to buy his own birthday cake..which I assume is for his party at home. There’s a photo of him (the same as the one in the photo above) and a photo of the female Israeli soldier that shot him. Sorry, its an Arabic page. You could probably Google translate it if you want.

    I’m not sure about whether or not he had a toy gun but if it’s true, then that would’ve been a really stupid thing to have done and it only confirms my belief that toy guns should not exist at all. My kid will never own a toy gun, regardless of whether it looks authentic or whether its painted in some funky color and makes crazy sounds.

  12. asherpat
    December 13, 2012, 10:10 am

    Pls correct, the deceased was 17 yrs old, not 16, see here from Palestinian source, translated.

    link to palpress.co.uk

    • Mooser
      December 13, 2012, 7:53 pm

      “Pls correct, the deceased was 17 yrs old, not 16, see here from Palestinian source, translated.”

      Great job at redeeming the reputation of the Jews, asherpat. Why if you keep this up, I bet you could simply invalidate Mondo right off the map.
      I mean, look, the kid was 17! And claimed to be sixteen!! Can guilt be more clear than that? ?

      • Shingo
        December 13, 2012, 8:38 pm

        Yes Mooser,

        Being 17 practically makes him a suicide bomber.

  13. American
    December 13, 2012, 10:53 am

    I don’t think is worth the time to speculate over the details of these events anymore because we all know that the IDF kill Palestines all the time for no reason.
    Kill, steal, lie …..are the three things everyone associates with Israel.

  14. Elisabeth
    December 13, 2012, 10:53 am

    This story really makes me sick. Especially seeing the boy happy and proud of all the sweets he got at his party. How can people survive such kind of loss? How can Israeli’s expect not to be hated? How scared of revenge you must be, knowing that your country does this over and over again…

    • American
      December 13, 2012, 4:27 pm

      “How can Israeli’s expect not to be hated? “…Elisabeth

      We’re not supposed to hate you know…but I can’t help it, I hate them. Maybe had I been a Jew in a concentration camp I would have hated them enough to have become a Nazi Hunter after the war…then again probably not, living for revenge is cancerous. They could maybe fear revenge from a free Palestine but I dont’ really think it’s that though—I think they just want their land and to rid it of non Jews, that’s why they keep doing what they do.

  15. Kathleen
    December 13, 2012, 11:23 am

    Shot six times. hmmm

    • asherpat
      December 13, 2012, 7:03 pm

      @Kathleen – have you ever been in a situation like what happened, and even more, have you served as a soldier in an environment of hatred and constant threat?

      Because if you have, you wud have realised that when someone waves something that resembles a weapon, no sane soldier will take any chances and 6 times is actually quite a low count. Just ask the poor electrician that got shot in London tube by the British police. And he did not even have a gun, just the adrenalin and the fear of a suicide bomber – the bobbies made sure that the guy cant reach the trigger, it was just that he had none.

      So whatever you think about Israel, unless you can prove that the guy was shot in cold blood completely unnecessarily, then pls avoid innuendoes.

      And one more thing, apparently, the guy’s brother was a member of Hamas who got exiled to Gaza…

      • Annie Robbins
        December 13, 2012, 7:29 pm

        unless you can prove that the guy was shot in cold blood completely unnecessarily, then pls avoid innuendoes.

        nah, it doesn’t work that way. unless you can prove he had a gun it’s perfectly reasonable to believe people are lying here. we just had that case in oakland, if a person with a cellphone had not caught the cop shooting the kid in the head …nada. killers lie. the iof lies consistently. i amafraid the burden ofproof is on your team in terms of public opinion.

        i am reminded of that soldier in afghanistan who took the rap for all those civilians massacred and bodies burned. villagers said it was a platoon,helicopters and all. many witnesses. at least 10 soldiers. who do you believe? the civilians, they have much less motive to lie, especially children.

      • seafoid
        December 14, 2012, 9:10 am

        “And one more thing, apparently, the guy’s brother was a member of Hamas who got exiled to Gaza…”

        That made me laugh.

        Remember the black kid with the hood who was shot dead in Florida in March by some white man with a gun. Imagine some white supremacist justifying the killing by saying ” and his brother is in jail”.

      • justicewillprevail
        December 13, 2012, 7:46 pm

        Pls avoid innuendos? Are you sure, you just provided 2 paragraphs of innuendo, speculation and supposition. Complete with some gratuitous slander, and an entirely false and irrelevant comparison. Topped off with some macho bs about soldiers acting as a police force. Why do you think they are in an environment of constant hatred? They are someone else’s country protecting thugs and killing people. They are not under threat, they are the threat, to ordinary people in their own town who merely want to walk down their own streets and live in their own houses. The IDF have no business there.

      • asherpat
        December 13, 2012, 8:25 pm

        @justice…

        whether or not Israel’s presence in Hebron is justified, your assertion that the soldiers “are not under threat” is simply wrong, and this completely undermines your position. You can argue as much as needed regarding the justification or demonisation of Israel, but please, do it separately from each incident.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 13, 2012, 10:25 pm

        whether or not Israel’s presence in Hebron is justified

        it isn’t. (and now that we have that out of the way) yeah, they are under threat the way an invader in your home would be under threat by trying to rob/kill you. most criminals are very conscience of their vulnerabilities. there’s an occupation, the oppressors are always under threat their underlings may revolt. so what’s your point?

      • Shingo
        December 13, 2012, 11:33 pm

        whether or not Israel’s presence in Hebron is justified, your assertion that the soldiers “are not under threat” is simply wrong

        So based on your reasoning, a rapist is within his rights to defened himself against his victim’s efforts to resist being raped. By your logic, the fact he happens to be raping her is a separate incident.

      • asherpat
        December 14, 2012, 2:35 am

        Annie, my “point” is that on this blog, both the writers and commenters invariably hold Israel guilty for everything (although in a small proportion, the guilt apportioned is indirect, e.g., “this happened only because the poor Palestinians have no other choice”, etc.) – but sometimes, this approach is clearly wrong.

        I support Israel, but in certain cases, I admit that actions by Israeli soldiers, settlers, etc., are wrong, full stop, no excuses.

        In this case, some commenters claim that Israeli position is fake, but their main argument is something like “Israel lied before, therefore, it is lying in this incident” – this, despite the reports coming clearly from Palestinian sources that support the story of a fake pistol being drawn. Not the presence of Israel in Hebron, but the particulars of this incident are important, but that doesn’t stop commenters here.

        This particular thread was started by someone commenting that there were six bullets shot into the deseaced person, implying (I called it “innuendoes”) that this fact proves that there there was intention to kill, as there supposedly no need to shoot someone 6 times to neutralise them, and when I commented in response, the thread went again for the “Israel can not be in the right, therefore it is in the wrong” direction.

        This is my point.

      • justicewillprevail
        December 14, 2012, 5:21 am

        ap, Miss the point spectacularly, lol.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 14, 2012, 8:40 am

        “whether or not Israel’s presence in Hebron is justified, your assertion that the soldiers “are not under threat” is simply wrong”

        Nonsense. They are “under threat” the same exact way the SS in France where: any attack on them would be them getting their just desserts.

      • seafoid
        December 14, 2012, 9:08 am

        Israel’s presence in Hebron is a joke. God gave up on Zionism years ago. The Jews who do their mitzvot in Hevron are praying into the void.

      • seafoid
        December 14, 2012, 9:11 am

        Israel is occupying Hebron. Do the Yanks have any right to be in Kabul ? No. Israel has no right to be in Hebron. Unless G-d wants zionism to collapse. ..

      • Accentitude
        December 18, 2012, 4:34 am

        You’ve got my interest. In which “certain cases” do you “admit that actions by Israeli soldiers, settlers, etc., are wrong, full stop, no excuses.”

        If you want to be sympathetic towards victims of Israeli violence, kindly provide us with examples of events that warrant your sympathies? Sabra and Shatilla? Deir Yassein? Cast Lead? Rabin’s “Broken Bones Policy”? Israeli desecration of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem? Mohammed al Durra? Targeted killings? Pillar of Smoke? Global Mossad assassinations? Mysterious death of Arafat? Burnings of mosques and churches? State-funded Rabbis advocating for ethnic cleansing? Home demolitions in AREA B?? Molotoving taxis with unarmed families inside? Live fire against unarmed protestors? Killing 9 Turks in international waters? Beating the shit out of Reuters journalists and killing others in Gaza? Please enlighten us.

      • Cliff
        December 18, 2012, 5:36 am

        Asherpat

        Israeli soldiers and settlers SHOULD be under threat. Whether they are is certainly the issue here.

        However, Israeli soldiers and settlers should all be either under threat physically and violently (since they are all thieves and oppressors) or under threat legally and morally and non-violently (BDS and/or total boycott).

        Why should the colonized Natives (a stereotype) be non-violent? Is it a moral implication? Are you suggesting Israelis and Israeli soldiers have the right to violence but Palestinians under colonization, occupation, and apartheid do not have such a right?

        I think you are so no need to answer.

        Israel will never give up the Jewish colonies willingly. Some outside actor must use force on Israel – whether it’s compelling violence or non-violence.

        And that would be wholly justified. Just as it would be justified to use force against a serial killer or other extreme criminal who continually evades justice.

        But Zionist Jews and other pro-Israel extremists think Jewish nationalism has an inherent and exclusive right to violence while Palestinians should simply lay down and die.

        To them I say, **** you.

  16. Kathleen
    December 13, 2012, 11:31 am

    Really something how Pres Obama and now Deputy Secretary of State William Burns have decided for the Syrian people who the legitimate government in Syria is. Burns “we now recognize the Syrian Opposition Counsel as the legitimate representative of the Syrian people” Reassembling the middle east according the Clean bloody Break drawn up by Perle, Feith and the Wurmsers.

    Nuland fumbled and bumbled during her statements about Syria. Using as many inflammatory words as she could throw together ‘napalm like thing’

  17. American
    December 13, 2012, 4:16 pm

    Do the IDF have an explanation for why they always ”shoot to kill” instead of shoot to disable, particularly where, as it most times does, concern the unarmed and even children?
    20 years ago when I took a firearms course for handguns we were told that even in panic like cases of an home intruder to try and “wound and disable” instead of using a fatal shoot…..for a lot of reasons, one being the number of times a drunken teen or household member has been mistaken for a intruder….which actually happened to a family here.
    But the shoot to kill seems to be more prevalent now even among US police forces on unarmed disturbances.
    Beside being a sign of the worsening mentality of law enforcement it also seems an indication of lack of expertise in gun use to me.

    • Mooser
      December 13, 2012, 7:51 pm

      “indication of lack of expertise in gun use to me.”

      American, people who have taken gun-safety course have no lower a rate of gun accidents. Actually I think it’s higher.

      • American
        December 13, 2012, 10:13 pm

        Mooser,

        Police and other enforcement professionals should have a higher level of expertise than ordinary citizens who take a gun safety course ….wouldn’t you think?
        Months ago there was a case where 6 police officers shot and killed a known mentally disturbed man who off his meds in the parking lot of a restaurant….he was unarmed except for a dinner knife he had taken from the restaurant. Im not a expert shooter and my only shooting hobby during my life has been skeet shooting, but even an amatuer like myself is good enough to hit a man in the shoulder or leg to disable him. So what is a reasonable explaination for 6 police officers, never mind that six of them should have been able to physically disable one man, to shoot a man mulitple times and kill him…..particulary when they knew the man was mentally off.
        I don’t think there is any excuse for it.

  18. IL1948
    December 13, 2012, 6:31 pm

    Right… maybe the soldiers should have not only waited to see if it was a real gun but also waited to see whether it could actually fire a bullet before taking any action.

  19. Mooser
    December 13, 2012, 7:49 pm

    “20 years ago when I took a firearms course for handguns”

    A lot of my friends have taken those courses, and told me their handguns didn’t learn anything. They were just as liable to go off from anger, jealousy or depression as they were before. One guy had a terrible experience, his gun (who he thought was his best friend!) fell in love with his wife and when she wouldn’t leave her husband it shot her! Big tragedy all around, except for the gun, who seemed strangely unaffected by the whole thing. Got off, too. Got bailed out and never served a day.

    • pabelmont
      December 14, 2012, 11:13 am

      Mooser, you just don’t get it. Guns don’t shoot people, bullets shoot people. Don’t blame (or exculpate) the gun. And don’t under any circumstances, ask about the gun’s political ideas, early childhood traumas, indoctrination, etc.

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