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Israel should start studying South Africa, so inevitable transformation is a peaceful one

Israel/Palestine
on 86 Comments

Looking at the recent elections in Israel, Joseph Dana argues in the National that Israelis are hiding their heads in the sand about the profound instability in the region, and the inevitability of the dismantling of the Israeli regime of occupation. Dana says that Israelis had better start reading the tea leaves, and study the South African model, so that the transformation is relatively peaceful. Dana: 

Iran and Syria were noticeably absent from exit polling data as Israelis made their election about taxes in Tel Aviv and whether ultra-orthodox men should have to join the military. Instead of electing a general from the military establishment, Israeli voters made former television journalist Yair Lapid the kingmaker.

This demonstrates that the security narrative inside Israeli society is not as strong as it may seem when seen from the West, and it also shows that the status quo of occupation and unequal governance has entrenched itself in the Israeli mindset.

Like many white South Africans at the height of the apartheid system, Israelis are desperate to feel normal. They understand that the situation with the Palestinians is not ideal, but see no other way. Therefore they prefer to pretend that their country is like Spain or Greece, where the most pressing issues are those related to the financial situation of their society.

The reality is that this dangerous thinking is harming Israel’s ability to see the legitimate national security dangers that are looming on the horizon.

Ultimately, Israel’s system of unequal governance will be dismantled, along with the intellectual scaffolding employed to support it. This is where South Africa’s continuing process of unravelling apartheid can inform and assist Israelis and Palestinians in a constructive though rather painful manner.

The time for this debate is now, before the coming storm of transformation shakes the Middle East.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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86 Responses

  1. Annie Robbins
    March 12, 2013, 2:24 pm

    smart. i am so ready for this moment to arrive.

  2. James Canning
    March 12, 2013, 2:47 pm

    I think Israeli government does study the history of the Union of South Africa, and how the increase in the non-white population caused the whites to leave the British Commonwealth and attempt to go-it-alone as a Republic with voting rights for whites and “honorary whites” (Asians).
    One might surmise the Israeli government will not make citizens of most of the Palestinians living in the West Bank.

  3. pabelmont
    March 12, 2013, 3:15 pm

    Israelis may be a bit tired of being unpopular, but they are also controlled by a powerful military-industrial-complex much like that of the USA and the constant need to massacre neighbors (Gaza, Lebanon) in order to remind themselvces how much they are feared, and to make war and threaten war (Iran, Lebanon, Syria) — so that it is hard to see how a peace-movement, a justice-movement, or a democracy-movement could really take hold.

    Also, an awful lot of myth-reinforcement to overcome. Of these the hardest would be to overcome the myth of Zionism’s “right” (as opposed to desire) to displace the Palestinian Arab people because of Jewish fears of another Holocaust. Can you imagine all those fancy Zionist folk who live in the old stone houses confiscated from the upper-class Palestinian Arabs (correctly, generally, called “Absentees”, but the legal regime regarding “Absentee Property” ignoring the reason for the absence) desiring to return them to their owners? Or even admit to the crimes? I cannot.

    • lysias
      March 13, 2013, 5:33 pm

      Apartheid South Africa also had a powerful military-industrial complex, did it not?

      Israel has a choice. It can choose to come to terms with the Palestinians the way white South Africans did with the blacks there, or, if it puts off doing this too long, it will face the fate of French Algeria.

      • James Canning
        March 14, 2013, 8:00 pm

        France had incorporated Algeria into Metropolitan France. So it was extra painful to cut Algeria free as an independent country. Even though the numbers showed France had no hope of success in suppressing the revolt.

    • Sibiriak
      March 16, 2013, 9:43 am

      Israelis may be a bit tired of being unpopular…

      Yes, Israelis are so unpopular these days:

      http://www.timesofisrael.com/americans-sympathy-for-israel-at-22-year-high/

      Americans’ sympathy for Israel at 22-year high

      Gallup poll finds 64% of Americans sympathize more with Israel, just 12% with the Palestinians

      • Blake
        March 16, 2013, 3:57 pm

        Even IF that is a fact America is not the world. I sometimes wonder if these polls are put out to try delude the Zionists into a false sense of security. Like a house of cards it can come down tumbling.

      • Annie Robbins
        March 17, 2013, 9:21 am

        no, they’re put out to convince americans how much we support israel and to make people who don’t imagine we’re in the fringe. congressional districts are mapped out to the tee and pollsters know which neighborhoods are aligned politically. it’s just not that hard to figure out.

      • American
        March 17, 2013, 10:54 am

        @ Blake

        I posted some info here a day or so ago about Gallup and the criticizm it is getting for it’s polling. Gallup’ Editor in Chief- Frank Newton is some kind of religious fanatic and has been accused of “tailoring” Gallup polls to support his views on religion. He holds that religion “should be” incoporated into government to make a healtier and better society and country. he goes all over the country speaking on this and has written several books on it. His Gallup polls on religion show the exact opposite of all other polls on it and the exact opposite of the US Census on religion…he claims the US is becoming more religious, while all other sources show it is not.
        I wasn’t able to link Newton to Israel slant or find out what his personal religion is but I think if Gallup has an Editor that is “agenda driven” in his polling on one subject it’s possible Gallup has other ‘agenda” people in it’s ranks also.
        “Agenda’ people are everywhere and in every possible public organ outlet and influence venue these days….I take Gallup and most polls, depending on who does them, with a grain of salt. The only one I think is credible and has no agenda is the Univ of Maryland World Public Opinion Poll, it”s not a ‘paid for” poll by any interest group, it’s financed by the Kennedy Center.

      • Blake
        March 17, 2013, 3:22 pm

        Thanks American I did not see that. Great info.

      • RoHa
        March 16, 2013, 11:12 pm

        “Gallup poll finds 64% of Americans sympathize more with Israel, just 12% with the Palestinians”

        Population studies find that Americans constitute about 4.5% of the world’s population.

  4. DICKERSON3870
    March 12, 2013, 6:22 pm

    RE: “Dana says that Israelis had better start reading the tea leaves, and study the South African model, so that the transformation is relatively peaceful.” ~ Weiss

    MY COMMENT: A big part of the problem is that the U.S. continues to act as an “enabler” of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank (much like the U.S. for a while acted as an enabler* of South Africa’s apartheid).

    * FROM WIKIPEDIA [Constructive engagement]:

    [EXCERPT] Constructive engagement was the name given to the policy of the Reagan Administration towards the apartheid regime in South Africa in the early 1980s. It was promoted as an alternative to the economic sanctions and divestment from South Africa demanded by the UN General Assembly and the international anti-apartheid movement.[1]
    The Reagan Administration vetoed legislation from the United States Congress and blocked attempts by the United Nations to impose sanctions and to isolate South Africa.[2] Instead, advocates of constructive engagement sought to use incentives as a means of encouraging South Africa gradually to move away from apartheid.[3] The policy, echoed by the British government of Margaret Thatcher, came under criticism as South African government repression of the black population and anti-apartheid activism intensified. . .

    SOURCE – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_engagement

    * FROM foreignaffairs.com: “South Africa: Why Constructive Engagement Failed”, By Sanford J. Ungar and Peter Vale, Winter 1985/86

    Article Summary
    Ronald Reagan’s imposition of limited economic sanctions against the South African regime in September was a tacit admission that his policy of “constructive engagement”–encouraging change in the apartheid system through a quiet dialogue with that country’s white minority leaders–had failed. Having been offered many carrots by the United States over a period of four-and-a-half years as incentives to institute meaningful reforms, the South African authorities had simply made a carrot stew and eaten it. Under the combined pressures of the seemingly cataclysmic events in South Africa since September 1984 and the dramatic surge of anti-apartheid protest and political activism in the United States, the Reagan Administration was finally embarrassed into brandishing some small sticks as an element of American policy.
    [We’re sorry, but Foreign Affairs does not have the copyright to display this article online.]

    SOURCE – http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/40525/sanford-j-ungar-and-peter-vale/south-africa-why-constructive-engagement-failed

  5. yourstruly
    March 12, 2013, 9:13 pm

    with justice for palestine

    except for the those who have committed crimes against humanity

    each & everyone?

    as equals?

    free to stay?

  6. mcohen
    March 12, 2013, 9:46 pm

    linking south africa and israel is purely a propaganda exercise by the arab american lobby to sway american opinion in the hope that what america did in south africa by dismantling apartheid will also work in israel

    its a good move especially now with obama in for another 4 years and left wing jews supporting the arab lobby with bds and what not.

    the eventual aim of the arab lobby in america is to try and cut off funding to israel which will impact on military spending and so weaken israels defence against an attack by arab forces

    obama has met with arab and jewish groups and obviously he will ask for concessions from both sides and offer guarantees to ensure that a suitable settlement takes place with a minimum of bloodshed as happened in south africa

    israel is not south africa and it is no coincidence that there exists a jewish state in this day and age

    my advice to you mr obama would be to leave israel off your itenerary altogether and rather visit The Roman Theatre in Amman, Jordan built by Antoninus Pius

    as the jews say on passover-“next year in jerusalem”

    not sure what Antoninus Pius would have to say about his theatre-all those past empires who attempted to rule in jerusalem are long gone including the arabian empire

    • James Canning
      March 13, 2013, 3:29 pm

      Israel is not going to be attacked by any Arab country. And Israel has largely ignored offer of peace and recognition, made by all Arab countries.

    • lysias
      March 13, 2013, 5:35 pm

      Have you read Sasha Polakow-Suransky’s The Unspoken Alliance: Israel’s Secret Relationship with Apartheid South Africa?

      • James Canning
        March 15, 2013, 1:48 pm

        No, but I am familiar with extensive cooperation between Israel and South Africa, to evade sanctions, etc etc etc. Creative cloak-and-dagger stuff.

    • Light
      March 13, 2013, 6:01 pm

      linking south africa and israel is purely a propaganda

      Except that Desmond Tutu says otherwise.

      In many ways, Israel’s behavior is worse. The South African whites needed the black South Africans labor. Israel wants the Palestinians to disappear.

    • EUR1069
      March 16, 2013, 1:52 pm

      “linking south africa and israel is purely a propaganda exercise by the arab american lobby”

      1. What is “the Arab American lobby”, & if there is indeed one, how does it compare to the influence of of AIPAC?
      2. Israel linked itself to South Africa throughout the 60s, 70s & 80s, cooperating in the trade, military & intelligence areas, and indeed fashioned the treatment of the Gaza & WB Palestinians as Untermenschen by the South African model of treating blacks.

  7. giladg
    March 13, 2013, 1:52 am

    The situations are completely different. No one threatened to wipe the whites out with chemical, biological, nuclear and human (suicide bombers) weapons. The whites did not originate in South Africa. The whites we’re a small minority. There was no history or track record of wars waged by the blacks against the Whites And there is no Mandela on the Palestinian side who recognizes that Jerusalem is as important to Jews as it is to anyone else.
    The analogy between South Africa and Israel is contrived and is a convenient way to push an agenda by those who want to totally ignore the other side.

    • Annie Robbins
      March 13, 2013, 11:32 am

      The whites did not originate in South Africa.

      huh? i thought all of mankind originated from africa.

      • James Canning
        March 13, 2013, 2:39 pm

        Annie – – Much of the black population of South Afrrica migrated from further north. This is how a fifty-fifty black/white split in Cape Province in 1820 became a numerical advantage of ten to one in later 20th century.

      • giladg
        March 13, 2013, 5:50 pm

        Annie, I take it that you don’t have a gripe with the other points I made? You may be right about mankind originating from Africa. It probably was the time when many of the continents were joined together.

      • Annie Robbins
        March 14, 2013, 2:50 pm

        gilad, don’t assume anything about stuff you say i ignore.

      • Ecru
        March 16, 2013, 7:13 am

        Oh good lord! Where were you educated? Many of the continents ARE joined together. Africa with Asia with Europe and with the Indian Subcontinent. South America with North America. Do you not have access to maps?

        However if you’re referring to Pangaea when ALL the continents were joined, that was 200 MILLION YEARS AGO! Now tell me how old do you think our species is exactly?

        As for apartheid you’re attempting to use a very limited definition to get Israel off the hook as opposed to the definition understood by the vast majority of people, a definition that Israeli practise clearly meets. And then some.

      • gamal
        March 16, 2013, 3:17 pm

        “It probably was the time when many of the continents were joined together.” I see yet another Nobel Prize on its way to Israel.

      • RoHa
        March 13, 2013, 8:51 pm

        “i thought all of mankind originated from africa.”

        East Africa, around Kenya -Ethiopia. That’s a long way from South Africa.

      • EUR1069
        March 18, 2013, 5:32 pm

        @RoHa: Actually, modern-day Namibia. Not a big deal, just for the record. peace.

      • EUR1069
        March 16, 2013, 1:54 pm

        @Annie: LOL High five!

      • Annie Robbins
        March 16, 2013, 3:00 pm

        eur1069, high5! i’m so glad someone appreciates my soh

    • Light
      March 13, 2013, 11:41 am

      giladg, repeats the tired Zionist bromide

      there is no Mandela on the Palestinian side…

      Yes there are Gilad, like Nelson Mandela, many are languishing in Israeli prisons.

      • giladg
        March 13, 2013, 5:56 pm

        Light, give us a “Mandela Quote” from one of those in prison? One will be enough. It appears you know little about the man. I am afraid that just being in prison is not enough to qualify. We are looking for a man of vision and who is willing to place the future of the Palestinians people together as partners with Israel and not with the maniacs of Iran and the house of Saud.

      • Annie Robbins
        March 14, 2013, 2:49 pm

        http://mondoweiss.net/2012/02/bassem-tamimi-to-israeli-military-judge-i-do-not-recognize-the-authority-of-the-israeli-occupation.html

        Tamimi’s full statement:

        “Your Honor,

        I hold this speech out of belief in peace, justice, freedom, the right to live in dignity, and out of respect for free thought in the absence of Just Laws.

        Every time I am called to appear before your courts, I become nervous and afraid. Eighteen years ago, my sister was killed in a courtroom such as this, by a staff member. In my lifetime, I have been nine times imprisoned for an overall of almost 3 years, though I was never charged or convicted. During my imprisonment, I was paralyzed as a result of torture by your investigators. My wife was detained, my children were wounded, my land was stolen by settlers, and now my house is slated for demolition.

        I was born at the same time as the Occupation and have been living under its inherent inhumanity, inequality, racism and lack of freedom ever since. Yet, despite all this, my belief in human values and the need for peace in this land have never been shaken. Suffering and oppression did not fill my heart with hatred for anyone, nor did they kindle feelings of revenge. To the contrary, they reinforced my belief in peace and national standing as an adequate response to the inhumanity of Occupation.

        International law guarantees the right of occupied people to resist Occupation. In practicing my right, I have called for and organized peaceful popular demonstrations against the Occupation, settler attacks and the theft of more than half of the land of my village, Nabi Saleh, where the graves of my ancestors have lain since time immemorial.

        I organized these peaceful demonstrations in order to defend our land and our people. I do not know if my actions violate your Occupation laws. As far as I am concerned, these laws do not apply to me and are devoid of meaning. Having been enacted by Occupation authorities, I reject them and cannot recognize their validity.

        Despite claiming to be the only democracy in the Middle East you are trying me under military laws which lack any legitimacy; laws that are enacted by authorities that I have not elected and do not represent me. I am accused of organizing peaceful civil demonstrations that have no military aspects and are legal under international law.

        We have the right to express our rejection of Occupation in all of its forms; to defend our freedom and dignity as a people and to seek justice and peace in our land in order to protect our children and secure their future.

        The civil nature of our actions is the light that will overcome the darkness of the Occupation, bringing a dawn of freedom that will warm the cold wrists in chains, sweep despair from the soul and end decades of oppression.

        These actions are what will expose the true face of the Occupation, where soldiers point their guns at a woman walking to her fields or at checkpoints; at a child who wants to drink from the sweet water of his ancestors’ fabled spring; against an old man who wants to sit in the shade of an olive tree, once mother to him, now burnt by settlers.

        We have exhausted all possible actions to stop attacks by settlers, who refuse to adhere to your courts’ decisions, which time and again have confirmed that we are the owners of the land, ordering the removal of the fence erected by them.

        Each time we tried to approach our land, implementing these decisions, we were attacked by settlers, who prevented us from reaching it as if it were their own.

        Our demonstrations are in protest of injustice. We work hand in hand with Israeli and international activists who believe, like us, that had it not been for the Occupation, we could all live in peace on this land. I do not know which laws are upheld by generals who are inhibited by fear and insecurity, nor do I know their thoughts on the civil resistance of women, children and old men who carry hope and olive branches. But I know what justice and reason are. Land theft and tree-burning is unjust. Violent repression of our demonstrations and protests and your detention camps are not evidence of the illegality of our actions. It is unfair to be tryed under a law forced upon us. I know that I have rights and my actions are just.

        The military prosecutor accuses me of inciting the protesters to throw stones at the soldiers. This is not true. What incites protesters to throw stones is the sound of bullets, the Occupation’s bulldozers as they destroy the land, the smell of teargas and the smoke coming from burnt houses. I did not incite anyone to throw stones, but I am not responsible for the security of your soldiers who invade my village and attack my people with all the weapons of death and the equipment of terror.

        These demonstrations that I organize have had a positive influence over my beliefs; they allowed me to see people from the other side who believe in peace and share my struggle for freedom. Those freedom fighters have rid their conscious from the Occupation and put their hands in ours in peaceful demonstrations against our common enemy, the Occupation. They have become friends, sisters and brothers. We fight together for a better future for our children and theirs.

        If released by the judge will I be convinced thereby that justice still prevails in your courts? Regardless of how just or unjust this ruling will be, and despite all your racist and inhumane practices and Occupation, we will continue to believe in peace, justice and human values. We will still raise our children to love; love the land and the people without discrimination of race, religion or ethnicity; embodying thus the message of the Messenger of Peace, Jesus Christ, who urged us to “love our enemy.” With love and justice, we make peace and build the future.”

      • Chu
        March 14, 2013, 2:58 pm

        ‘We are looking for a man of vision and who is willing to place the future of the Palestinians people together as partners with Israel…’

        Seriously – that was funny… Who’s the WE in we are looking? You and your fellows Israelites searching anywhere for one partner of peace.

      • justicewillprevail
        March 14, 2013, 3:14 pm

        Palestinians have no hope whatsoever of finding partners in Israel who have a genuine interest in sharing the country they both inhabit. Israel has them under the cosh, and has demonstrated zero interest in sharing anything with anybody. Typically you always blame Palestinians for the Israeli intransigence and unwillingness to even discuss the several peace proposals put forward over the years. Where is the Israeli Mandela is the question you should be asking, one bold enough to tell his own people that equal rights are not a threat to their existence, and that Palestinians are equal in every way to Jews and deserve exactly the same rights and privileges to land and resources.

      • giladg
        March 14, 2013, 4:35 pm

        You see Annie, a Palestinian Mandela would not use the word “occupation”. A Palestinian Mandela would talk about reconciliation. A Palestinian Mandela would talk about sharing and co-operation. Tamimi is no Mandela.

      • Light
        March 14, 2013, 5:31 pm

        giladg, who are you to be the judge of what Mandela would say?

        We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.
        ― Nelson Mandela

        Except for settlers, everyone calls it an occupation. As far as reconciliation what is the following?

        We will still raise our children to love; love the land and the people without discrimination of race, religion or ethnicity; embodying thus the message of the Messenger of Peace, Jesus Christ, who urged us to “love our enemy.” With love and justice, we make peace and build the future.

      • talknic
        March 14, 2013, 5:31 pm

        giladg

        “We are looking for a man of vision and who is willing to place the future of the Palestinians people together as partners with Israel and not with the maniacs of Iran and the house of Saud”

        Neither Iran or the Saudis have illegally acquired any one else’s territory by war or any other illegal means. Neither have nukes or claim to want nukes and there is no evidence they are working towards nukes. Neither have any Palestinians incarcerated without being charged. Neither have demolished Palestinian homes, farms, orchards. Neither have dispossessed any Palestinians. Israel has done all the above and more

        There is no foreseeable ‘future’ ‘with’ Israel, there is only more of the same theft of territory, on going occupation, lies, deceit. If Israel were to act like Saudi Arabia and Iran, stay within its borders, adhere to the Law and the UN Charter… but it hasn’t, in 64 years Israel has been outside the law, outside its borders and as far away from the basic tenets of Judaism as one can imagine, which is really odd for a ‘Jewish State’.

        Your post makes absolutely no logical sense what so ever. Lay off the ziocaine, it rots the brain

      • lysias
        March 14, 2013, 5:40 pm

        You see Annie, a Palestinian Mandela would not use the word “occupation”.

        “Tyranny,” “exploitation,” “oppression” are the words Mandela used at his speech at his trial:

        Having said this, I must deal immediately and at some length with the question of violence. Some of the things so far told to the Court are true and some are untrue. I do not, however, deny that I planned sabotage. I did not plan it in a spirit of recklessness, nor because I have any love of violence. I planned it as a result of a calm and sober assessment of the political situation that had arisen after many years of tyranny, exploitation, and oppression of my people by the Whites.

        Surely, at least as harsh as “occupation”.

        No, the word “reconciliation” does not occur in that speech.

      • talknic
        March 14, 2013, 5:42 pm

        giladg

        “You see Annie, a Palestinian Mandela would not use the word “occupation”. A Palestinian Mandela would talk about reconciliation. A Palestinian Mandela would talk about sharing and co-operation.”

        Had Mandela been occupied, he’d probably have talked about it and; who would this Palestinian Mandela share and co-operate with?

        What would Israel do? Thus far it shares no thing and refuses point blank to co-operate. It ignores UNSC resolutions, the law, the UN Charter, even the basic tenets of Judaism. It takes everything it can, territory, freedoms, lives.

        In 64 years Israel as not been able to put forward a single peace plan with the Palestinians that does not include taking and keeping non-Israeli territory.

        Oh BTW “The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not just an issue of military occupation and Israel is not a country that was established “normally” and happened to occupy another country in 1967. Palestinians are not struggling for a “state” but for freedom, liberation and equality, just like we were struggling for freedom in South Africa.” Nelson Mandela

      • Cliff
        March 14, 2013, 6:06 pm

        Why wouldn’t Palestinian Mandela use the word occupation ?

        Why are you still on Palestinian land in the first place ?

        What is cooperation according to a Jewish colonist ?

        How about you get off their land and pay reparations.

        You caused this conflict. Not them. They were living there when your immigrant invader forefathers destroyed Palestinian society.

        There is no use cooperating with thieves.

        You simply want to steal more from them and use your own disgusting definition of peace and cooperation to steal more and dismiss them more.

      • James Canning
        March 14, 2013, 7:22 pm

        When Israel obviously is occupying the West Bank, why do you think a Mandela would not use the correct term? Occupation.

      • James Canning
        March 15, 2013, 1:46 pm

        Talknic – – Ibn Saud, the Sultan of Nejd, conquered the Kingdom of the Hejaz (including Mecca and Medina) in the 1920s. He became King of Hejaz (and of course Sultan of Jejd). Then remaned it “Saudi Arabia in the 1930s.

      • sardelapasti
        March 16, 2013, 2:09 am

        gilgadg – “We are looking for a man of vision ”

        Sure there are many of them. And the vision is the uprooting of the racial supremacist Zionist state, the ultimate abomination of the 20th Century. That simple.

      • EUR1069
        March 17, 2013, 11:52 am

        @giladg: Just listen to one of your own. here’s my Mensch Rabbi Dov Weiss again.

    • eljay
      March 13, 2013, 12:02 pm

      >> The analogy between South Africa and Israel is contrived …

      It’s an excellent analogy. Zio-supremacists don’t like it because it helps to clarify and demonstrate just how ugly are they, their ideology and their oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state.

      • James Canning
        March 13, 2013, 2:25 pm

        A big difference between Israel and South Africa, is that South Africa allowed large numbers of blacks to enter South Africa and remain. Israel has done all it can to keep Christians and Muslims out of Israel.

      • Cliff
        March 14, 2013, 6:07 pm

        Right, Israel is worse.

        SA activists have said so as well.

    • James Canning
      March 13, 2013, 2:40 pm

      Whites were half the population of Cape Province in 1820.

      • lysias
        March 14, 2013, 10:13 am

        Whites were half the population of Cape Province in 1820.

        If that is true, it would have been after massive killing of Bushmen, Hottentots, and Xhosas during colonial frontier wars conducted by the Dutch (and later their Afrikaner descendants) and by the British, as I am currently learning in reading Richard Gott’s book Britain’s Empire: Resistance, Repression, and Revolt.

    • RoHa
      March 13, 2013, 9:12 pm

      “The whites did not originate in South Africa.”

      The vast majority of early Israeli Jews did not originate (in the family history sense) in Palestine. Most were Europeans or descendants of Europeans.

      Now, since a lot of current Israelis were actually born there, I* would say they originate there. But most of the whites were born in South Africa.

      “There was no history or track record of wars waged by the blacks against the Whites”

      You need to learn about the hundred-year Cape Frontier /Xhosa Wars (1779 – 1879), the Anglo – Zulu War(1879), sundry nineteenth century battles between Zulus and Trekkers, and the South African Border War (1966 – 1989).

      All these were essentially wars between blacks and whites.

      “And there is no Mandela on the Palestinian side who recognizes that Jerusalem is as important to Jews as it is to anyone else.”

      Is there a Mandela on the Israeli side who who recognizes that Jerusalem is as important to Christians and Muslims as it is to anyone else?

      *(I don’t care about family history, ancestry, “heritage”, or any of that drivel.)

    • thankgodimatheist
      March 14, 2013, 8:11 pm

      “there is no Mandela on the Palestinian side who recognizes that Jerusalem is as important to Jews as it is to anyone else”
      Jerusalem is as important to the Jews? So what? A spiritual connection doesn’t give you the right to take over the area and kick out the locals. Not nice.
      As for the Palestinian Mandela canard..Come on now! It doesn’t bother you to sound like a parrot?

    • Blake
      March 16, 2013, 4:02 pm

      @gildag: “They did not threaten to wipe the whites out”: ‘One settler, one bullet’ springs to mind and the one you zios seem to use a lot too, viz “drive us into the sea”, so a very apt analogy indeed.

      Also, European Jews do not originate from the Levant.

      In a John Hopkins study published Dec 14th 2012, the Israeli geneticist Eran Elhaik explains that, among the various groups of European & non-European Jews, there are no blood or family connections: “The various groups of Jews in the world today do not share a common genetic origin. We are talking here about groups that are very heterogeneous & which are connected solely by religion.” The bottom line, he claims, is that the “genome of European Jews is a mosaic of ancient peoples and its origin is largely Khazar.”

  8. gamal
    March 13, 2013, 12:01 pm

    “There was no history or track record of wars waged by the blacks against the Whites”. eh?

    Is Mr. Weiss able to offer a degree in Ahistory, because i think we have someone deploying Ahistory at a postgraduate level.

    Do you really think SA is good model to follow, who is the Palestinian Winnie Mandela?

    • James Canning
      March 13, 2013, 2:23 pm

      gamal – – Isn’t the reason South Africa obtained Israel’s help to build nukes, to make sure no African country tried to help black South Africans wage guerilla war?

    • lysias
      March 13, 2013, 5:40 pm

      South Africa is a much better model to follow than French Algeria.

      • sardelapasti
        March 14, 2013, 1:05 am

        lysias – “South Africa is a much better model to follow than French Algeria.”

        Sure is. But the time to do that was then. It’s not just that the Zionists are more indoctrinated (and, let’s say it, more stupid) than both the ZA and the French colons. It’s that they have the US by the balls, so there will be no stopping them (both) from going to the extremes.

      • lysias
        March 14, 2013, 11:06 am

        The pieds noirs colons had French politicians by the balls until De Gaulle came to power in 1958.

      • sardelapasti
        March 15, 2013, 9:03 pm

        Oh sure, but. First, that time’s France was already a broken power of the third magnitude. Second, as demonstrated, logic did at a given moment prevail in the French government (BTW as usual that was NOT with the Socialists!), which I cannot for the life of me imagine ever happening in a place like the US. We are simply not made that way. It will as usual take us total, ignominious defeat before we get out of it (and continue, as after Vietnam, to worship our crimes and mistakes.)

      • James Canning
        March 16, 2013, 1:41 pm

        De Gaulle nearly got assassinated for his acceptance of independence for Algeria. And de Gaulle saw that there were far too many people in Algeria who did not regard themselves as French, for France to be able to retain Algeria.

  9. thetumta
    March 13, 2013, 11:43 pm

    The “South Africa” model is off the table, don’t you think? “French Algeria” and other models are on the table maybe. I’m afraid it’s time to chose? In the end, they always fold very fast once they over extend themselves. What is left to the Zionists other than out and out, no denying it, Genocide? What will the democrats say?

    Hej! Tumta

  10. mcohen
    March 14, 2013, 5:56 am

    from ripleys wtf aka wikipedia

    ” According to Oxford Dictionary of Islam the word ‘Kafir’ means: ‘Unbeliever. First applied to Meccans who refused submission to Islam, the term implies an active rejection of divine revelation

    In a number of tribes located South of Natal in South Africa, the word “kafir” is used synonymously with, “native.”

    The Arab slave trade from East Africa is one of the oldest slave trades, predating the European transatlantic slave trade by 700 years.[33] Male slaves were often employed as servants, soldiers, or laborers by their owners, while female slaves, including those from Africa, were long traded to the Middle Eastern countries and kingdoms by Arab and Oriental traders as concubines and servants.
    deliciously
    iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii ron iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii c
    is it not

    especially as obama has roots in east africa,…no wonder he liked watching the movie Lincoln,however some republicans preferred to give it a miss

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/13/1193752/-Republicans-turned-down-invite-to-screen-Lincoln-at-White-House-with-Obama-and-Spielberg

    home of the brave land of the free ,shoot the brits and steal there tea

    • Annie Robbins
      March 14, 2013, 9:57 am

      predating the European transatlantic slave trade by 700 years.[33] Male slaves were often employed as servants, soldiers, or laborers by their owners, while female slaves, including those from Africa, were long traded to the Middle Eastern countries and kingdoms by Arab and Oriental traders as concubines and servants.
      deliciously
      iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii ron iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii c

      since you’re using wiki as a source have you checked out their History of slavery link? predating the slave trade by a couple thousand years.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery

      Mycenaean Greece (c. 1600 BC – c. 1100 BC)

      Ancient Greece

      Records of slavery in Ancient Greece go as far back as Mycenaean Greece. The origins are not known, but it appears that slavery became an important part of the economy and society only after the establishment of cities.[14] Slavery was common practice and an integral component of ancient Greece throughout its rich history, as it was in other societies of the time including ancient Israel and early Christian societies.[15][16][17] It is estimated that in Athens, the majority of citizens owned at least one slave. Most ancient writers considered slavery not only natural but necessary, but some isolated debate began to appear, notably in Socratic dialogues while the Stoics produced the first condemnation of slavery recorded in history.[17]

      During the 8th and the 7th centuries BC, in the course of the two Messenian Wars the Spartans reduced an entire population to a pseudo-slavery called helotry.[18] According to Herodotus (IX, 28–29), helots were seven times as numerous as Spartans. Following several helot revolts around the year 600 BC, the Spartans restructured their city-state along authoritarian lines, for the leaders decided that only by turning their society into an armed camp could they hope to maintain control over the numerically dominant helot population.[19] In some Ancient Greek city states about 30% of the population consisted of slaves, but paid and slave labor seem to have been equally important.[20]

      • mcohen
        March 15, 2013, 7:47 am

        annie

        “about 30% of the population consisted of slaves, but paid and slave labor seem to have been equally important.”

        interesting point.could explain why no real leadership has emerged amongst israeli arabs after 60 years.a slave mentality.

        nelson mandela was heavily involved with jewish intellectuals before he went to trial

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivonia_Trial

        so that is the reason for choosing south africa as a starting point for sanctions.the rectification of mistakes made in the past ,both connected to the ideals of british colonialism,one in south africa and one in israel

        let me see now ,which bright spark at the london school of economics thought this up
        the same bunch who are fiddling around in egypt trying to take arab society to the next level
        open democracy and company

        well before any advancement can take place the islamic scholars need to re-examine what role islam can play.because survival comes first and relegion provides the will and intent.malaysia could play a role

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Malaysia

        survival includes things like work ethic,innovation,etc and less time spent comtemplating the navel

        it is here that israel can play a crucial role through education but arabs need to free themselves from that slave mentality and israelis need to free themselves from that spartan mentality

        first came rivers of blood ,then came the locusts,days of darkness to follow.

        the plagues will inflict both societies because they they are tied to the same source of belief

        for sure

      • Annie Robbins
        March 15, 2013, 4:34 pm

        annie

        “about 30% of the population consisted of slaves, but paid and slave labor seem to have been equally important.”

        interesting point.could explain why no real leadership has emerged amongst israeli arabs after 60 years.a slave mentality.

        mcCohen, are you suggesting the people of Mycenaean Greece were primarily arabs? or that arabs have a slave mentality? i’m not seeing the connection you’re making. but something tells me a lack of progress in israel society for israeli palestinians is probably more a result of political and social conditions (like racism). not their arab-ness.

      • Light
        March 15, 2013, 4:48 pm

        interesting point.could explain why no real leadership has emerged amongst israeli arabs after 60 years.a slave mentality.

        mcohen, Israeli Palestinian lived under military rule from, 1948 to 1966. Even as citizens, the government cracks down on any Palestinian who is too vocal. It is a strategy that has been used since 1948. Perhaps you should read up on the village files.

        http://www.jerusalemquarterly.org/images/ArticlesPdf/JQ-52-Sela-Scouting_Palestinian_Territory_1940-1948.pdf

        This kind of activity still goes on.

        survival includes things like work ethic,innovation,etc and less time spent comtemplating the navel

        Take your racist comments somewhere else.

        it is here that israel can play a crucial role through education

        Are you joking? They do everything possible to deny Palestinians a good education.

        http://adalah.org/newsletter/eng/sep05/comi2.pdf

      • mcohen
        March 15, 2013, 5:46 pm

        annie

        what i am suggesting is that israeli arabs view themselves as a conquered people hence the idea of “slave mentality”

      • sardelapasti
        March 15, 2013, 7:58 pm

        “something tells me a lack of progress in israel society for israeli palestinians is probably more a result of political and social conditions (like racism). not their arab-ness.”
        You are so wrong. Their political and social condition is a direct result of their arabness, which is a subdivision of their goyness. To which the dominant powers properly responded. So you see their condition is a result of their not being Jewish, not at all of politics. You are the one politicizing and eminently scientific question. QED.

      • Light
        March 16, 2013, 12:55 am

        what i am suggesting is that israeli arabs view themselves as a conquered people hence the idea of “slave mentality”

        No, that better describes the Israeli view of Palestinians.

      • Annie Robbins
        March 16, 2013, 12:59 am

        really mcohen. so if you enslave or conquer someone, it is because that someone has a slave mentality? there’s something really sick in your thinking mcohen. i could not even bear to read your 7:47 am comment in it’s entirety earlier. i was so taken aback by the opening.

        the implications about your thinking process revealed in your comments are sick. i don’t know what else to say. there’s really nothing else to say. the chances of me ever responding to you again are nil.

      • RoHa
        March 16, 2013, 1:53 am

        “so if you enslave or conquer someone, it is because that someone has a slave mentality?”

        I think the suggestion is that people who have been conquered and enslaved develop a slave mentality as a result. (And this can happen to anyone.)

        In the case of Arab society in general, I have seen the suggestion that Arabs have been ruled by Turks and Westerners for so long that they have lost the cultural habits required for sucessful self rule, and only have the cultural habits which were required for survival under foreign rule.

        But whether this is an accurate asssessment of the causes of the problems in Arab society is another question.

      • Hostage
        March 16, 2013, 2:46 am

        interesting point.could explain why no real leadership has emerged amongst israeli arabs after 60 years.a slave mentality.

        LOL! A small blind religious leader in a wheel chair frightened you Zionists so badly that you wet the bed and diverted billions of dollars to build walls, fences, and bomb shelters. You better hope that isn’t an example of their slave mentality, or you won’t be able to stand the pace if a real leader rises-up among them.

      • mcohen
        March 16, 2013, 5:21 am

        annie

        “. so if you enslave or conquer someone, it is because that someone has a slave mentality?”

        not what i said

        i said that they have the mentality of a conquered people-they did not have that before 1948 -do not twist my words

        but now that you mentioned it arabs that lived in what is now israel lived under ottaman rule before 1948 so the point i am making is that they have always been a conquered people going back hundreds of years

        all from wikipedia-look it up

        Mamluk (Arabic: مملوك mamlūk (singular), مماليك mamālīk (plural), meaning “owned”; also transliterated as mamlouk, mamluq, mamluke, mameluk, mameluke, mamaluke or marmeluke) is an Arabic designation for slave soldiers.

        1516: The Ottoman Empire replaces the Mamluks in Palestine after Sultan Selim I defeats the last Mamluk Sultan Al-Ashraf Qansuh al-Ghawri at the Battle of Marj Dabiq (Aleppo) and the Battle of Yaunis Khan (Gaza)
        1517: Sultan Selim I makes a pilgrimage to Jerusalem on his way to the final defeat of the Mamluks at the Battle of Ridaniya (Cairo). Selim proclaims himself Caliph of the Islamic world.
        1518: Abu Ghosh clan sent to Jerusalem to restore order and to secure the pilgrimage route between Jaffa and Jerusalem
        1535–1538: Suleiman the Magnificent rebuilds walls around Jerusalem.
        1541: The The Golden Gate is permanently sealed.
        1546: On 14 January a devastating earthquake shook the Palestine region. The epicenter of the earthquake was in the Jordan River in a location between the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee. The cities of Jerusalem, Hebron, Nablus, Gaza and Damascus were heavily damaged.[55]
        1555: Father Boniface of Ragusa, Franciscan Custodian of the Holy Land, repairs the Tomb of Christ (the Aedicula) in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. This was the first time the tomb was opened since the visit of Saint Helena in 326. It was carried out with the permission of Pope Julius III and Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent, and with funds from Philip II of Spain who claimed the title King of Jerusalem[56]
        1604: First Protectorate of missions agreed under the Capitulations of the Ottoman Empire, in which Ahmad I agreed that the subjects of Henry IV of France were free to visit the Holy Places of Jerusalem. French missionaries begin to travel to Jerusalem and other major Ottoman cities.
        1624: Following the Battle of Anjar, Druze prince Fakhr-al-Din II is appointed the “Emir of Arabistan” by the Ottomans to govern the region from Aleppo to Jerusalem. He toured his new provinces in the same year.[57] He was deposed and hanged a decade later by the wali of Damascus
        1663–5 Sabbatai Zevi, founder of the Sabbateans, preaches in Jerusalem before travelling back to his native Smyrna where he proclaimed himself the Messiah
        1672: Synod of Jerusalem
        1700: Judah the Pious with 1,000 followers settle in Jerusalem.
        1703–1705: The city revolts against heavy taxation. It is finally put down two years later by Jurji Muhammad Pasha.[58]
        1705: Restrictions imposed against the Jews.
        1744: The English reference book Modern history or the present state of all nations stated that “Jerusalem is still reckoned the capital city of Palestine”[59]
        1757 Ottoman firman is issued regarding the Church of the Holy Sepulchre
        1771–2: The renegade Christian Mamluk ruler of Egypt Ali Bey Al-Kabir temporarily took control of Jerusalem with 30,000 troops, together with Daher el-Omar and Russia (who had also instigated a Greek revolt as part of the Russo-Turkish War (1768–1774).
        1774: The Treaty of Kucuk Kaynarca is signed between Catherine the Great and Sultan Abdul-Hamid I giving Russia the right to protect all Christians in the Ottoman Empire.(Same rights previously given to France (1535) and England)
        1798 Patriarch Anthimios of Jerusalem contended that the Ottoman Empire was part of the God’s divine providence to protect the Orthodox church from Roman Catholicism and Western secularism.

      • mcohen
        March 16, 2013, 6:05 am

        light annie and everyone other ,,,,,,,

        “” what i am suggesting is that israeli arabs view themselves as a conquered people hence the idea of “slave mentality”

        No, that better describes the Israeli view of Palestinians.””

        what is it you do not understand about the arab spring-the arab people have not been truly free from the tyranny of despots for centuries
        in egypt they dispose of one and elect another-arabs in order to be truly free need to seperate church from state

        it is that simply

      • American
        March 16, 2013, 10:33 am

        mcohen says:
        March 15, 2013 at 5:46 pm

        annie

        what i am suggesting is that israeli arabs view themselves as a conquered people hence the idea of “slave mentality”>>>>>>

        Well it appears to me the ‘conquered people’ are still holding out and fighting back…and all by themselves mostly….. they have no superpower financing and arming them.

      • James Canning
        March 16, 2013, 2:16 pm

        mcohen – – It is perhaps interesting to contrast the attitudes of Scots toward England, with the attitudes of Irish toward England. In Ireland, Roman Catholics tended to see the Irish as having been conquered by England. The Scots generally did not view England has having conquered them (in part due to willing union negoitated by Scottish parliament).

  11. stephenjones
    March 14, 2013, 3:08 pm

    The last thing Palestine and Palestinians need is a Nelson Mandela. Anyone who bothered to pay attention to the plight of South Africa after the old white and new ANC elites transferred the nation from Apartheid to neoliberalism saw that, by every measurable socio-economic criteria, most blacks in South Africa have seen their living standards fall, while whites’ fortunes have soared to new heights. The ANC successfully sidelined the left (SACP and COSATU) and pushed a neoliberal program that proved to be a second ruin for most of the black population. Sadly, bourgeois anti-racism (the “black faces in high places” focus that sustains the idolatry around Mandela and Obama) has delivered less-than-nothing to most blacks, and the ANC, most South African whites, the US, and the capitalist class globally is quite happy with that outcome.

    There was an article a while back regarding some “forward-looking” (oh oh) Israeli entrepreneurs and Palestinian cohorts who wanted to form more business contacts. The initiative was presented as a marvel of peace-making and not the opportunistic vulture move that it was. I have a feeling that the current situation, as intolerable as it is, may resolve itself – under pressure first from the EU and then the US – into something like the disaster we see in post-Apartheid South Africa… with Palestinian gendarmes gunning down Palestinian striking workers for their Israeli bosses. Whether one-state or two-state, justice means more than lines on a map and laws on the books.

  12. James Canning
    March 14, 2013, 3:19 pm

    What do you think should have been done differently? Mandela managed a very difficult transition, to say the least.

    • mcohen
      March 15, 2013, 6:03 pm

      james

      old story out of africa

      they gave nelson 200 suits when he got out of jail

  13. mcohen
    March 15, 2013, 6:14 pm

    interesting fellow rasool

    i wonder if he is connected to the campaign to connect south africa to israel when it comes to sanctions and apartheid

    from wikipedia

    “”In addition to Cabinet ministers, there are a number of Members of Parliament as well as councillors in the various provinces.[who?] The former Western Capepremier, Ebrahim Rasool, is Muslim (Rasool is currently serving as South Africa’s Ambassador to the United States of America).””

  14. Keith
    March 15, 2013, 7:34 pm

    For some curious reason, South Africa continues to be held up as some sort of model for a successful outcome for the Israel/Palestine conflict. Putting aside that Zionist ideology precludes this, the South African model is hardly encouraging. In order to get some political power and nominal democracy, Mandela struck a political bargain which left control of the economy in the hands of the white South African elites and the transnational corporations. The net effect was that black politicians replaced white politicians as administrators implementing neoliberalism on behalf of international capital. In effect, little changed as blacks continued to be exploited and impoverished. The presence of black administrators acting to stifle dissent and effective resistance. According to Danny Schecter, “South Africa is an angry and frustrated nation and on the brink.”

    “That “deeper trouble” evoked the compromise negotiated settlement that won political power for the ANC through elections in the early 90’s, but kept economic power in the hands of a mostly white elite dominated by big business, the “mining energy complex.” Economist Sampie Terrablanche tells that story of an imposed neoliberalism lobbied for by multinationals, international financial institutions and foreign governments like the U.S. and U.K. in his book, “Lost in Transformation.”
    http://www.zcommunications.org/the-warning-south-africa-is-an-angry-and-frustrated-nation-and-on-the-brink-by-danny-schechter

  15. James Canning
    March 16, 2013, 1:46 pm

    Keith – – You think black South Africans would have benefited from extended vicious civil war in the country?

    • Keith
      March 17, 2013, 4:36 pm

      JAMES CANNING- “Keith – – You think black South Africans would have benefited from extended vicious civil war in the country?”

      James, you think that having blacks wielding the white man’s whip represents a big improvement? My point was that a South African solution in Israel/Palestine is far from idyllic, hardly a model to strive for. What is actually happening in South Africa is established fact. Your “extended vicious civil war” is conjecture. In today’s globalized political economy, the options of both the South African blacks and the Palestinians are severely limited. I think it is fair to say, however, that in South Africa, the ANC co-opted any sort of effective resistance to neoliberalism, just as Obama has done in the US.

      • James Canning
        March 19, 2013, 3:30 pm

        “Blacks [are] wielding the white man’s whip” in South Africa?

  16. Blake
    March 16, 2013, 4:43 pm

    Senator Giuliano Amato – who was an Italian presidential candidate – said on his weekly TV program on Italian state TV back in January 2013 his prediction on how Palestine would and should evolve in the future started off by offering a comparison by what happened in South Africa – i.e. eventually that conflict in South Africa came to an end when the white ruling class realized it was a mere minority and could no longer be sustained when they would be fighting an endless war against the black majority and there was no other solution but to have a shared coexistence & political governance. “Israel would soon have to accept this very same solution. Israel has made it impossible to have a 2 state solution as illegal settlers have occupied and taken over a vast part of the land assigned to the Palestinian people for a future separate state. As Jews are a minority they would have to accept the solution in which the Palestinian population would clearly represent the majority with all the political consequence this implies. What I hope is for a Palestinian leader a charismatic figure such as Nelson Mandela able to take power the same way Nelson Mandela did”, he said.

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