Israelis flock to Berlin– some for ‘multicultural vibe’

Israel/Palestine
on 71 Comments

“Israelis flock to Berlin for better life” — Al Jazeera’s reports on the braindrain out of Israel, and says 15,000-30,000 Israelis have moved to the former epicenter of Nazism (the Israeli government estimate is the low end). The piece says that 70 percent of Israelis still cannot forgive Germany the crimes of the Holocaust, but the Jewish past is still evident in Berlin, and one of the young Israelis says, “Come on, it’s behind us.” 

Reporter Victoria Schneider also mentions the occupation as a motivator, and says that some have come to Berlin for the “multicultural vibe.” Gee, who’d have thought that a multicultural society in which everyone has equal rights is a goal, and not an ethnocracy?

When they arrived in Germany in early December, their flat was waiting for them. Noa Golan, a slim 29-year-old with dark hair, had found the ground floor flat in an old building in one of Berlin’s hippest quarters, Neukölln, which is known for its tatty and multicultural vibe….

Lev, who worked as a human rights lawyer for Yesh Din, an Israeli NGO that files petitions against illegal construction by settlers on privately owned Palestinian land, says: “It came to a point where I just felt I had to leave. It’s the way people in Israel treat you; some called me a traitor.” The 35-year-old says he was worried he might be followed or photographed. “If you oppose, the society pushes you aside.”

Berlin has the space to breathe. “I felt Israel was very narrow,” says Maayan Iungman. The actress, model and director moved from Tel Aviv just before her 30th birthday, less than a year ago.

Being abroad made her realise many things: “People here don’t have this stress like we do. Israel is not bad – that’s not what I am saying. But the reality is hard, in a quiet way. It’s hard to make a living. There’s the occupation, the army, the religion. The society teaches you that this is the only place for you and you’re not welcome in other places. It’s a country that is occupying another country and it makes its own people crazy. And I am not even talking about the Palestinian people.”

There are an estimated 700,000 Israelis now living abroad (and, of course, many vocal American Zionists, including Peter Beinart and Jeffrey Goldberg, choose not to live in the Jewish state, I imagine because they like the multicultural vibe here, and because they’d prefer to unfold their career ambitions here; well, doesn’t that tell you something?).

71 Responses

  1. Citizen
    March 10, 2013, 11:54 am

    Young Israeli Jews flock to Hitler’s old stronghold Berlin for multi-cultural experience, and young American Jews join IDF for Zionazi experience. And then some American Jews return to live in USA and peddle Zionism, thus have their cake and eat it too–neat studies in character, such ilk. What’s worse than a simple traitor? One with lots of influence and power in the chattering class. Like Jeff Goldberg. What a portrait of the American ruling class, eh? Beiden at AIPAC last did not say anything about what his Daddy might have thought about contemporary Israel, did he? US congress and WH are for sale to highest bidder. Israel-Firsters have an advantage in that they have tons of Zionist money behind them and a single agenda to horse trade. The other plus, the fact that America today is maintained by war mongering (along with the US dollar as world reserve currency–why the 1% hate Iran that is not strictly due to AIPAC et al).

  2. German Lefty
    March 10, 2013, 12:39 pm

    Non-Zionist Israelis are welcome. The others not so much.

    • Carowhat
      March 11, 2013, 12:51 am

      But a Zionist Israeli would probably want to stay in Israel, would he not?

      • German Lefty
        March 11, 2013, 4:44 pm

        But a Zionist Israeli would probably want to stay in Israel, would he not?

        That’s a logical assumption. However, reality proves us wrong.
        A lot of Zionists choose to live outside of Israel. They view Israel merely as a refuge or shelter that they can use if something terrible happens in their country of residence.
        Also, Zionist Israelis might move to another country as part of a mission to spread Zionist propaganda. You know that Israel depends on Western support.

  3. German Lefty
    March 10, 2013, 12:52 pm

    From Haaretz:
    Asked “is it time to forgive the German people and Germany for crimes committed in the Holocaust,” some 51 percent said they totally disagreed with the sentiment. Nineteen percent disagreed somewhat. Only 23 percent were willing to forgive, and 7 percent had no opinion.
    link to haaretz.com
    That’s a really strange question. We are different German people in a different German state. Therefore, we and our state haven’t done anything to the Jews that requires forgiveness. The question should be: “Will the Palestinians forgive Germany for its silence and cowardice regarding Zionist crimes?”

    • American
      March 10, 2013, 2:46 pm

      From Haaretz:
      Asked “is it time to forgive the German people and Germany for crimes committed in the Holocaust,” some 51 percent said they totally disagreed with the sentiment. Nineteen percent disagreed somewhat. Only 23 percent were willing to forgive, and 7 percent had no opinion.
      link haaretz.com>>>>>

      Your German adult at even the younger age of 20 to 25 , alive in the 1940’s would be 98 to 103 years old…therefore probably dead and gone.
      Which also btw, applies to most holocaust survivors…and even Jews who fled… most of them are dead….even a one year old child in a concentration camp in 1940 would be 73 to 77 years old today…a 12 year old would be 85 years old.

      So the real question is, isn’t it time for everyone to ignore the holocaust guilt industry? Both the perpetrators and the victims are all 99.9% dead. All it is now is an on going zionist blackmail scheme.

      • sardelapasti
        March 10, 2013, 5:22 pm

        “… isn’t it time for everyone to ignore the holocaust guilt industry? … All it is now is an on going zionist blackmail scheme.”

        Ah, but where do you want the Zionists to finance their expensive propaganda without digging into their own pockets (or Uncle Sam’s?) Stopping the Holocaust industry would not be favorable to the economy, especially now in its deep crisis. Some people might even find themselves out of a job!

      • Mayhem
        March 12, 2013, 12:59 am

        @American, you obviously have no idea about the importance of learning from history. The individuals who commit atrocities reappear from one generation to the next.
        How you would love to sweep it all under the carpet.
        Can’t you see the obvious contradiction in your avoidance scheme?
        By corollary 98% of those Palestinians who lost their homes in 1948 have long since passed away, so let’s not get sucked into your pro-Palestinian blackmail scheme.

      • MarkF
        March 12, 2013, 8:43 am

        Blackmail? Like the 3 billion a year sucked out of our homeland every year, especially while we are hurting?

      • eljay
        March 12, 2013, 9:15 am

        >> @American, you obviously have no idea about the importance of learning from history. The individuals who commit atrocities reappear from one generation to the next.

        Too true. One generation they’re in Germany; the next generation they’re in “Jewish State”. Too bad Zio-supremacists didn’t learn from history…

      • American
        March 12, 2013, 12:08 pm

        ”By corollary 98% of those Palestinians who lost their homes in 1948 have long since passed away, so let’s not get sucked into your pro-Palestinian blackmail scheme….Mayhem”

        Sorry, your typical logical fallacy doesn’t work…..’those Palestines” are still refugees—“those Palestines’ have gotten no aid or restitution.

        Jews and Israel, on the other hand….and even their descendents — did and are still getting “trillions” for their victim and refugee status— from countries, corporations, any and everyone they can find to get money from.

      • German Lefty
        March 12, 2013, 2:30 pm

        @ Mayhem

        you obviously have no idea about the importance of learning from history.
        What makes you think that? American just stated that it’s time to ignore the Holocaust guilt industry. He said nothing about ignoring the Holocaust itself.
        Learning from the mistakes of previous generations: Yes!
        Feeling guilty about the mistakes of previous generations: No!

        The individuals who commit atrocities reappear from one generation to the next.
        So, you believe in reincarnation?

        98% of those Palestinians who lost their homes in 1948 have long since passed away, so let’s not get sucked into your pro-Palestinian blackmail scheme.
        Well, there’s a difference between Nazism and Zionism.
        Nazism already ended many decades ago. Germany now treats Jews and non-Jews equally. Holocaust victims and their descendants are granted a right of return.
        Zionism has not ended yet. Israel still doesn’t treat Jews and non-Jews equally. Nakba victims and their descendants are still denied a right of return.

      • Mayhem
        March 12, 2013, 9:38 pm

        @MarkF, this report link to middleeastmonitor.com puts the figure at $7 billion. Make up any figure to suit your agenda.
        How much has been wasted collectively on trying to get rid of Israel that could have gone toward providing the Palestinians with productive lives?

      • German Lefty
        March 13, 2013, 11:26 am

        getting rid of Israel (i.e. Zionism) = providing the Palestinians with productive lives

      • American
        March 13, 2013, 2:11 pm

        “How much has been wasted collectively on trying to get rid of Israel that could have gone toward providing the Palestinians with productive lives?”…Mayhem

        How much has been wasted on Israel when it could have gone to making theirs’s and all kinds of lives more productive?

    • gamal
      March 10, 2013, 4:13 pm

      “We are different German people in a different German state. Therefore, we and our state haven’t done anything to the Jews that requires forgiveness.”

      But is not the current state the successor state, to the Weimar, the Nazi, the West German and the GDP states and therefore as the successor state does it not assume some responsibility for the states from which it is descended. Doesnt the current German state pay reparations, and if not the German state where should such compensation for the crimes of the 3rd Reich be found, Claire Short remarked, to a Zimbabwean Minister, during her brief stint as minister for Foreign development or something that her government was made up of people who were Irish or too young to have been involved in imperialism and thus her Government bore no responsibility for the previous actions of the British state, he replied that the Zimbabwean state was still paying off debts incurred by the UDI white regime in its murderous war, see Selous Scouts, against Zimbabwean indigenous forces. Isnt the greatest betrayal of German states ‘moral’ liabilities the fomenting of war in the former Yugoslavia, involvement in the GWOT and support for the Zionist state, the fact that other western powers have a good deal of unacknowledged crimes to be addressed does of course put the whole thing in different light. Selectively applied law or principles are pretty worthless and can only lead to injustice resistance and conflict, as history and current affairs amply demonstrate.

      a successor Palestinian state would surely assume responsibility for Israeli state crimes and financial liabilities, etc? or am i wrong?

      • German Lefty
        March 12, 2013, 11:35 am

        Doesnt the current German state pay reparations, and if not the German state where should such compensation for the crimes of the 3rd Reich be found. a successor Palestinian state would surely assume responsibility for Israeli state crimes and financial liabilities, etc?

        Yes, of course. But you have to distinguish. The Federal Republic of Germany, as the successor state, has to pay compensation to the victims of Nazi Germany. In this regard, there is a financial responsibility by the successor state (as collective) to the actual victims (as individuals). No more, no less. However, Jewish and non-Jewish Zionists try to widen this responsibility by conflating certain things.
        For example, they claim that Germans as individuals have a moral responsibility to make sure that the crimes that were committed by their ancestors will never happen again.
        Also, these Zionists claim that the German successor state has a moral and financial responsibility to ensure the national security of the “Jewish state” as collective. However, the inhabitants of the “Jewish state” and the Jewish victims of the Holocaust are not the same people. Also, financial compensation for past crimes is not the same as financial aid for present and future security.

      • gamal
        March 13, 2013, 3:20 pm

        all very cogent thanks Lefty.

      • American
        March 13, 2013, 2:18 pm

        gamal says:
        March 10, 2013 at 4:13 pm

        “We are different German people in a different German state. Therefore, we and our state haven’t done anything to the Jews that requires forgiveness.”

        But is not the current state the successor state, to the Weimar, the Nazi, the West German and the GDP states and therefore as the successor state does it not assume some responsibility for the states from which it is descended.>>>>>

        Okey dokey, then the world will hold Jews or Israelis collectively and all their descendants in perpetuity responsible for Israel’s crimes…….fair enough?
        No?…well I thought not.

  4. Mndwss
    March 10, 2013, 1:25 pm

    “The society teaches you that this is the only place for you and you’re not welcome in other places. It’s a country that is occupying another country and it makes its own people crazy. And I am not even talking about the Palestinian people.”

    A friend of my mother used to rent his home to Israeli tourists here in Norway when he went away on summer vacations.

    The Israeli tourists was always insisting that he show them all and EVERYTHING in the house. They looked everywhere for bombs.

    But the thing that they asked most questions about was the cast iron door at the bottom of the chimney.

    Do they have rubber doors at the bottoms of chimneys in israel?

    I feel very sorry for people that are so afraid, but i do not understand how they can not understand why people are afraid of them when they steal land and hate the people they steal land from…

    “It’s a country that is occupying another country and it makes its own people crazy”

    They are not only occupying another country, they refuse to call that country a country and the people a people.

    • German Lefty
      March 10, 2013, 1:54 pm

      Thanks for the anecdote.

      The Israeli tourists was always insisting that he show them all and EVERYTHING in the house. They looked everywhere for bombs.
      If they were that paranoid, then why did they leave their country at all?

      I feel very sorry for people that are so afraid
      Yes, Israeli Jews are themselves victims of Zionist propaganda. When you are taught at school, by your parents and the media that the rest of the world hates you, then chances are that you start believing it.

      • Annie Robbins
        March 12, 2013, 10:20 am

        it’s a form of child abuse, but i don’t know if the parents realize how destructive it is. they too are engulfed in this belief, and it keeps getting repeated. it’s so sad. imagine learning from an early age the whole world hates you. that’s so insane.

    • just
      March 10, 2013, 2:39 pm

      Perhaps they know nothing of the extraordinary lengths that the Danes and the Norwegians went to in order to rescue/save Jewish folk during WW2.

      Oh well.

      • RoHa
        March 10, 2013, 10:38 pm

        “Perhaps they know nothing of the extraordinary lengths that the Danes and the Norwegians went to in order to rescue/save Jewish folk during WW2.”

        Of course not. They are taught that no-one did anything.

  5. Sycamores
    March 10, 2013, 1:42 pm

    another major contributation to the emigration of israelis (yerida) to other countries is the high cost of living in israel.

    Haaretz 15/12/12
    Bye, the beloved country – why almost 40 percent of Israelis are thinking of emigrating

    According to a new survey, more than a third of Israelis would leave the country if they could, citing economic opportunities as the main reason.

    considering that israel has the world largest imigration industry this most be very worrisome.

  6. Fritz
    March 10, 2013, 1:48 pm

    The German embassy in Tel Aviv gives every year 3,000 new German passports to Israelis.
    The aljazeera report is misleading that most of them are critical against the state of Israel, that isn’t true. Most of them came to Berlin on personal reasons and many, many of them are supporters of the policy of their homeland.

    • MK_Ultra
      March 10, 2013, 6:47 pm

      I’m confused, are you denying or supporting the article? Or do you think that 3,000 new passports is just small potatoes for immigrants proceeding from an illegal entity with only 6 million inhabitants? And, of course, we all realize that the best way to support atrocities is from far away.

      • Fritz
        March 13, 2013, 6:16 am

        My point is that Israelis who are interested in getting EU-passports (tenthousands of them every year in Poland) are mostly interested in practical aims such as travelling free in all EU-countries as an EU citizen, getting all social welfare or education which is given in all EU-countries to all EU-citizens without national restrictions. They are not critical to Israel policies and mostly commited to their homeland and families.
        The Israeli influence on EU countries may grow and develop to a situation where national Jewish communities mixed up with Israelis getting more and more powerful and influential to the EU MidEast politics. May be in some years we will have a Hagel hearing situation even in European countries, see Ed Milibands confession that he is a zionist .

  7. hophmi
    March 10, 2013, 3:17 pm

    Sigh. If only you did not engage in so much wishful thinking, Phil.

    Al Jazeera has somewhat of an interest in reporting stories like this, but the principal reason the couple profiled in the article moved was the rising housing prices in Tel Aviv. The principal reason one of the others profiled in the article moved was love.

    Like so much of what you put up here, you’re citing the dissident exceptions that prove the rule.

    Yes, life is not easy for everyone in Israel. And yet, most Israelis, the vast, vast, vast majority, want to be nowhere else. I guess Al Jazeera doesn’t talk to them very often.

    • Newclench
      March 10, 2013, 6:03 pm

      A few points Phil and Hophmi.
      1. This story is ten years old. Well, new for this journalist from Al-Jazeera, but an old story. Reporting non-news as news is not a hallmark of journalistic quality. Here’s a random recycled item from 2008: link to telegraph.co.uk

      2. There is a brain drain in Israel, but much like the anglo emigration from apartheid South Africa, it isn’t at a level that would cause any damage to the Israeli economy. The main causes of outmigration are cost of living, better opportunities abroad, adventure seekers, etc. I’m someone who left Israel in disgust, and I know plenty others, but we’re a small fraction of the Israelis who have left.

      3. The real challenge to Israel and Zionism is more subtle. The Zionist idea is that Israel is the Jewish state, a home to all Jews who desire it. A magnet that would exert influence over Jews qua Jews. But we have an elite constituency that grew up in Israel who reject this logic with open eyes and the benefit of years of indoctrination telling them otherwise. The question a sci-fi writer might tackle would be: what is Israel down the road in the absence of these folks? Probably just ‘more’ of what it is now, which will increase out-migration for all the reasons that cause it now.

      4. One of my friends served in the army the full three years, including in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon. He is a political centrist. And he left Israel with PTSD symptoms that took years to tease out and address. Many of those who left have escaped the cause of their PTSD without needing or wanting to understand the political implications of it all. It’s enough to be away from all those triggers. This is one of the ways that the conflict exerts a powerful undertow that harms the quality of life and resiliency of Israeli society, no matter what the leaders and champtions say. And why ending the conflict – really ending it, not managing it – is such an imperative for anyone cares about our friends and relatives who are still there.

      • pabelmont
        March 12, 2013, 9:46 am

        Glad, I suppose, that some Israeli soldiers are getting PTSD. Not for them, but for their society to rethink — tho its leaders will not do so any more than USA’s military leaders are stopped from their imperial adventures by the PTSD adn suicide and familial violence by soldiers.

        But my thoughts are with the Palestinians especially in Gaza and especially children whose psychological rewiring must be ever-so-much worse than that of even Isrfael’s PTSD soldiers.

    • Ecru
      March 10, 2013, 6:19 pm

      I’m sure you think you’re presenting Israel in a good light.

      Unfortunately all you’re actually doing is saying the “vast, vast, vast majority” of Israelis are happy to live in and benefit from a nation that discriminates based on ethnicity, that practises apartheid, that’s occupying another peoples lands, that’s bought into much of the Nazis underlying philosophy, and that seems awfully keen on to starting WWIII.

      Which really isn’t very complimentary.

    • justicewillprevail
      March 10, 2013, 6:29 pm

      Yeah, keep missing the point if it makes you feel better.

    • amigo
      March 10, 2013, 6:51 pm

      Hophmi, Israel is finished , thanks to fools like you who cannot see beyond the next war crime or act of hatred.

    • Cliff
      March 10, 2013, 7:03 pm

      thanks for that expert rebuttal citing absolutely nothing, hoppy

    • Ira Glunts
      March 10, 2013, 9:31 pm

      @Hophmi I have read similar stories in the Hebrew press.

      • hophmi
        March 11, 2013, 2:11 pm

        “Hophmi I have read similar stories in the Hebrew press.”

        I’ve read many stories like this. They all amplify a minority opinion. Most Israelis are staying put, and the conflict will not end because a few thousand are leaving to make money and get away from the hostile atmosphere created by Israel’s Arab neighbors. You won’t be able to make peace with those who leave. So let’s stop pretending that they are a major portion of a country.

      • MarkF
        March 12, 2013, 10:39 am

        ” You won’t be able to make peace with those who leave. So let’s stop pretending that they are a major portion of a country.”

        A dude who was teaching Hebrew at the DC JCC left to live here. He wasn’t political, he just hated it there. He’s a programmer and wanted to live in a better place. He had Arabic and Jewish friends, just an overall good guy who hated the environment. Many Israelis choose to live in the DC suburbs to get away from the place. It’s not the idealistic place of our youth my friend, it’s warped into a major right-wing intolerant place. Relatives of mine over there are increasingly disturbed over the government and the settlers, not the “hostile Arabs”. They’re more worried about a civil war over the settlements.

      • eljay
        March 13, 2013, 1:31 pm

        >> … the conflict will not end because a few thousand are leaving to … get away from the hostile atmosphere created by Israel’s Arab neighbors.

        And nothing defuses a hostile atmosphere created by Arab neighbours better than using terrorism and ethnic cleansing to create an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist “Jewish State” in Palestine, and maintaining and expanding that state by means of a 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.

        Too funny. But, yeah, aggressor-victimhood is a really tough gig…

    • The Hasbara Buster
      March 11, 2013, 2:38 pm

      While the superficial reason for the exile of so many Israelis may be the country’s high cost of living, the ultimate cause is the conflict. It is thanks to the conflict that a circle of some 20 families can dominate the real estate, utility and retail sectors, charging exorbitant prices for goods and services with little protest from the society.

      Since most of the political debate is focused on security and the gaining of ever more territory, little attention is paid to issues of wealth distribution and regulatory measures to stop the concentration of economic power in a very few hands.

      Seeing as there is little chance of changing that from within, many prefer to emigrate. That would not be the case in a normalized situation, in which the citizenry would prioritize their well-being and act –and vote– accordingly.

      • hophmi
        March 12, 2013, 10:10 am

        “Since most of the political debate is focused on security and the gaining of ever more territory, little attention is paid to issues of wealth distribution and regulatory measures to stop the concentration of economic power in a very few hands.”

        There is a lot of focus on it; that is what the J14 movement was about. There’s no land conflict in the United States, and our inequality problem is exactly the same as Israel’s.

        link to haaretz.com

      • Annie Robbins
        March 13, 2013, 12:53 pm

        our inequality problem is exactly the same as Israel’s.

        no it’s not. we don’t steal land for free from canada or mexico to build on and subsidize whole communities to ease our housing problem.

      • hophmi
        March 13, 2013, 1:48 pm

        “no it’s not. we don’t steal land for free from canada or mexico to build on and subsidize whole communities to ease our housing problem.”

        The assertion was that Israel doesn’t focus on its inequality problem. Our Gini number is the same as Israel’s.

  8. RudyM
    March 10, 2013, 4:28 pm

    This reminds me of Spain inviting Sephardic Jews back to the motherland:

    link to bbc.co.uk

    In November, Spain’s justice minister Alberto Ruiz-Gallardon announced a plan to give descendants of Spain’s original Jewish community – known as Sephardic Jews – a fast-track to a Spanish passport and Spanish citizenship.

    Beating Zionism at its own game?

    (Granted, Spain isn’t the most inviting country at the moment for economic reasons.)

    • Annie Robbins
      March 11, 2013, 2:02 pm

      but if you like food it’s supposed to be the global hotspot.

    • Cliff
      March 12, 2013, 4:33 am

      More preferential treatment for Jews because of Zionist lobby.

      Muslims deserve the same ‘fast-track’ to a Spanish passport and citizenship if Jews do.

      Islamic Spain and its achievements led to the Renaissance and the Enlightenment.

  9. ToivoS
    March 10, 2013, 4:55 pm

    Often when Israeli warn of some existential threat, this is the threat they have in mind. If too many Israelis give up and return to the West the Jewish state will lose its demographic advantage. Any event that increases the anxiety level and encourages emigration is an event that becomes an existential threat. I have always suspected that this is the why they consider Iran’s nuclear program as such a threat.

  10. Stephen Shenfield
    March 10, 2013, 5:55 pm

    “Al Jazeera … says 15,000-30,000 Israelis have moved to the former epicenter of Nazism.”

    I checked and discovered that this is not true. Al Jazeera says they moved to the German capital.

  11. MK_Ultra
    March 10, 2013, 6:39 pm

    This headline is akin to this other one:

    Israelis flock to Berlin– some for ‘multicultural vibe’

    A Locust Plague, Shy of Biblical Proportions, in Israel

    link to nytimes.com

    God is giving the Isrealites every change to repent and change their ways but the Chosen are not getting it.

  12. palijustice
    March 10, 2013, 8:25 pm

    An Ultranationalist, religious based state like Israel must be a stifling place to live indeed, but not stifling enough for the people to change it to a state of equal rights for all of its citizens, and separating religion and state.

  13. kayq
    March 10, 2013, 8:26 pm

    The chutzpah of all this is while Palestinian refugees are waiting to come home for 70 years now, young Israeli’s born into Palestine/Israel end up emigrating. Guess it’s not much of a ‘home’ to them, is it?

  14. RoHa
    March 10, 2013, 10:39 pm

    But aren’t the poor things terrified of anti-Semitic progroms? Israel is supposed to be the only place Jews are safe.

  15. bilal a
    March 10, 2013, 11:05 pm

    de-Judaization vs de-Nazification , Weimar deja vu all over again.

    • Annie Robbins
      March 10, 2013, 11:09 pm

      i’d call it de-zionization

      • hophmi
        March 11, 2013, 10:22 am

        Will you be de-Arabizing the Palestinians, Annie?

      • Annie Robbins
        March 11, 2013, 1:03 pm

        zionism, like nazism, is a political construct. the same cannot be said for the other constructs. probably too complicated for you to comprehend.

      • hophmi
        March 11, 2013, 1:24 pm

        “zionism, like nazism, is a political construct”

        You just love using them in the same sentence, don’t you. It’s like you’re hotwired to see them as the same thing.

        Anyway, what’s your point? Every political ideology known to mankind is a “political construct.”

      • Annie Robbins
        March 11, 2013, 1:41 pm

        my point is that i am absolutely not hot wired to see judaism and nazism as ‘the same thing’, which is why i was aligning political constructs and not a religion vs a fascist regime.

        but like i said earlier probably too complicated for you to comprehend.

        gee hops, you make debating so easy.

      • hophmi
        March 11, 2013, 1:43 pm

        “my point is that i am absolutely not hot wired to see judaism and nazism ‘the same thing’, which is why i was aligning political constructs and not a religion vs a fascist regime.”

        Well, good.

      • amigo
        March 11, 2013, 4:06 pm

        You just love using them in the same sentence, don’t you. It’s like you’re hotwired to see them as the same thing. hoppy

        hophmi March 4, 2013 at 4:55 pm with 1 replies

        Were Southern blacks involved in suicide attacks against whites in the South?

        You just love tying all Palestinians to suicide Bombers, eh oppy.

        Too bad for you, your own words keep coming back to bite you.

      • Mayhem
        March 12, 2013, 1:03 am

        @Annie, do you think you sound convincing?
        Hophmi may not understand your profound analysis, but others may benefit from it. So let’s hear it.

      • Cliff
        March 12, 2013, 4:34 am

        Why should Palestine be de-Arabized? Palestinians are the indigenous population.

        You are the invaders and colonizers.

  16. Stogumber
    March 11, 2013, 6:08 am

    Basically, most people want an ethnocracy at home and a multicultural society everywhere else. That’s human, not contradictory.
    I suppose that a lot of Israelis in Germany feel just so. (But a lot of Germans feel the same, and that will become a problem in the future.)

  17. eGuard
    March 11, 2013, 6:50 am

    Maayan Iungman: The [Israeli] society teaches you that [Israel] is the only place for you and you’re not welcome in other places.

    This is called hate incitement. Clearly it is institutional in Israel.

    • hophmi
      March 11, 2013, 10:24 am

      I can’t imagine where the sentiment would have come from in a state with hundreds of thousands of Holocaust survivors.

      I wouldn’t exactly call Germany a welcoming place for Jews. It is welcoming in a very self-conscious sort of way.

      • German Lefty
        March 11, 2013, 6:39 pm

        I wouldn’t exactly call Germany a welcoming place for Jews.

        We welcome people who support equal rights and respect human rights, regardless of religion.

      • Nevada Ned
        March 12, 2013, 1:18 am

        Hophmi,

        In 1945 about 100,000 Jews survived the Nazi death camps. So how can 100,000 survivors in 1945 result in “hundreds of thousands” of Holocaust survivors in Israel today??

        The answer was discovered by Norman Finkelstein: the definition of a survivor was changed. Now, anybody who was in a country that Germany controlled during the Second World War is counted as a “survivor”. This includes Jews who were hidden in Christian homes, people who hid out in the forests, etc.: people who were never in a Nazi camp.

        You might think, logically, that as time passed, the number of survivors would decrease from 100,000 in 1945. But Finkelstein recounts how the number of survivors actually increased (!!!) from 100,000 to a million. Read Finkelstein’s book, “The Holocaust Industry” and you will be enlightened.
        At this link, check out footnote # 5.

      • Cliff
        March 12, 2013, 4:36 am

        Hophmi and the Zionist troll crew began to question Hedy Epstein’s legitimacy as a ‘Holocaust Survivor’ on these grounds.

        She is anti-Zionist and made damaging statements against the apartheid Jewish State.

        And that she’s a Holocaust survivor, she is seen as possessing symbolic political capital.

        Zionists want to own the Holocaust so they can weaponize it and use it against their political enemies. And here is a Jew who isn’t following their cult mentality.

        So naturally the trolls and Jewish supremacists insulted her and her experiences.

      • hophmi
        March 13, 2013, 1:31 pm

        “In 1945 about 100,000 Jews survived the Nazi death camps. So how can 100,000 survivors in 1945 result in “hundreds of thousands” of Holocaust survivors in Israel today??”

        One doesn’t need to be a death camp survivor to be a Holocaust survivor. Anyone Jew (and others who were persecuted) who was in Nazi-occupied territory during the war years is a survivor. And there were more than just death camps. There were labor camps. There were mass shootings outside of the camps.

        I believe Hedy Epstein was part of the Kindertransport. I would personally count her as a survivor, but it’s a little different (at least to me) from someone who was in Nazi-occupied space during the war. In any event, the pro-Palestinian movement uses her status as a Holocaust survivor (and Norman Finkelstein’s status as the child of Holocaust survivors) endlessly, but seems to think that there’s something wrong with pro-Israel people, who count amongst their ranks the vast majority of Holocaust survivors, doing the same.

        ” Now, anybody who was in a country that Germany controlled during the Second World War is counted as a “survivor”. This includes Jews who were hidden in Christian homes, people who hid out in the forests, etc.: people who were never in a Nazi camp.”

        And so it should be defined that way. All of these people were affected by German barbarism.

        “Zionists want to own the Holocaust so they can weaponize it and use it against their political enemies.”

        Uh-huh. Or it’s simply that the vast majority of Holocaust survivors support Israel and have a problem with people who say that Israelis should simply “return to Europe.”

      • MarkF
        March 12, 2013, 10:46 am

        “I wouldn’t exactly call Germany a welcoming place for Jews.”

        Many Jews feel that way about Israel. That’s why the majority live outside the place.

      • hophmi
        March 13, 2013, 1:22 pm

        “Many Jews feel that way about Israel. That’s why the majority live outside the place.”

        Nice try, but this statement is nonsense. The fact that most Jews live outside of Israel (and a plurality of Jews do live there) does not mean that Israel is not a welcoming place.

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