Khalidi, Walt and Blumenthal on Obama and the two-state delusion

Israel/Palestine
on 88 Comments

In this Op-Ed in the New York Times about Obama’s trip to Israel and Palestine, Rashid Khalidi goes nowhere near the nostrum of two states for two peoples living side by side. No, author of a new book on the deceit of the US role in the peace process, Khalidi, speaks of the charade that has created one state between the river and the sea, and the need for a frank acknowledgement of the power imbalance between parties, and the need for American opposition to colonial expansion. Here’s hoping.

Some key paragraphs:

First, he must abandon the stale conventional wisdom offered by the New York-Washington foreign-policy establishment, which clings to the crumbling remnants of a so-called peace process that, in the 34 years since the Camp David accords, has actually helped make peace less attainable than ever..

Continuing with the Orwellian grotesquerie that is the “peace process” is contrary to any enlightened definition of American self-interest. It has burnished the image of the United States as Israel’s uncritical defender and enabler. Furthermore, it insults the intelligence of the Palestinian people..

If Mr. Obama cannot face those realities, it would be far better for him to just be honest: the United States supports this intolerable reality and is willing to bear the resulting international opprobrium. People the world over realize that America for many decades has helped produce a situation where, pious invocations of support for a Palestinian state notwithstanding, there is, and for the foreseeable future will be, only one true sovereign authority between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River: the state of Israel..

For Mr. Obama, a decision is in order. He can reconcile the United States to continuing to uphold and bankroll an unjust status quo that it helped produce. Or he can begin to chart a new course based on recognition that the United States must forthrightly oppose the occupation and the settlements and support an inalienable Palestinian right to freedom, equality and statehood. There is no middle way.

At Foreign Policy, Steve Walt employs much the same rhetorical approach. Performing lip service to the two-state solution even as he states that it is finished, citing Ben Birnbaum’s piece in the New Republic on the end of the 2ss (replete with Arabophobic art). Walt’s headline is very good: Two States for Two Peoples: The Sequel.

Obama’s trip is bound to generate more discussion about how to get the peace process started again, along with the usual back-and-forths about which side is more responsible for the current impasse…

But here’s the litmus test you should use: How many [Israel supporters] are in favor of the United States using the leverage at its disposal to bring the occupation to an end and obtain a two-state outcome? In other words, how many of them favor the United States using both carrots and sticks with both sides in order to achieve the outcome that they claim to favor? How many of them would openly back Obama if he did just that? The United States has steadfastly refused to use its leverage evenhandedly in the past, and the result after twenty-plus years of “peace processing” has been abject failure…

And don’t forget that the Palestinians are already under tremendous pressure — stateless, under occupation, dependent on outside aid, and watching the territory in dispute disappear as settlements expand. At this point, there’s little to be gained by squeezing them even harder. If you genuinely believe in “two states for two peoples,” then you ought to be openly calling for the United States to act like a true global power and knock some heads together. And anyone who claims to oppose the occupation and support the 2SS while insisting that the United States must back Israel no matter what it does is either delusional or disingenuous.

Right, it’s just not going to happen, given the strength of the pro-Israel choir. Yesterday Max Blumenthal told me that if Obama commits to the nostrum of two-states for two people living side by side on this trip, then god help us, we’re looking at a long dark future. Far better that he issue bland pronouncements about peace and step out of the way, indicating that the U.S. won’t resume its dishonest role of abetting colonial expansion; this, he said, will hasten the process toward a just solution.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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88 Responses

  1. ritzl
    March 13, 2013, 3:34 pm

    Per Walt: “is either delusional or disingenuous.” Heh. I realize even he can’t say this, but shouldn’t it be “is BOTH delusional AND disingenuous?”

    Blumenthal is right.

    • seafoid
      March 13, 2013, 5:21 pm

      A just solution will only happen after a lot of pain. There won’t be any soft landing for Zionism. They have coiled themselves up into so much hatred and when the spring is released there will be a big mess.

    • Hostage
      March 14, 2013, 12:54 pm

      Per Walt: “is either delusional or disingenuous.” Heh. I realize even he can’t say this, but shouldn’t it be “is BOTH delusional AND disingenuous?”

      Blumenthal is right.

      Neither of the articles cited above actually support the proposition that the goal of obtaining two states is delusional. In fact, they both endorse the idea.

      Khalidi is only complaining about the de facto status quo of apartheid and Bantustans. His bottom line, and all of his arguments against colonialism and expansion of the settlements, are based upon international laws that assume the de jure existence of more than one state between the river and the sea.

      Khalidi is reminding everyone that Obama can either reconcile himself to the status quo of apartheid and international opprobrium or accept the inalienable right of Palestinians to freedom and statehood (i.e. the 2ss). He is correct, there’s no middle ground.

      Walt and the “Boston Group” study recommend that Obama abandon negotiations and simply impose the two state solution, using the carrot and stick approach on Israel for a change.

      • ritzl
        March 15, 2013, 7:18 am

        Fair points, Hostage. I was just reflecting on Walt’s quote and my own experiences with people that do argue this issue in that exact way.

        Khalidi and Walt do seem to believe that a two-state outcome is possible, but only through a [long?] tunnel of, ’til now, unachievable prerequisites. I don’t know if I’d use the word “endorse.” The caveats are too glaring. The end-game pronouncements too numerous. The desperation too palpable. They both seem to be saying, “Now or never.”

        But specifically wrt the possibility of two-states, I don’t see it at this point. Maybe if I had your experience and knowledge on this I would see it otherwise, but barring some precipitating event, I don’t see all the legalities that favor a two-state outcome being brought into play. From your writing here, there’s a mountain of them. But Israel simply ignores them and the US lets it.

        To me, there are three mutually compounding dynamics in play that make the likelihood of such a precipitating event vanishingly slim: 1) the leverage required to get the US to stop looking the other way is decades in the making (with an uncertain outcome even assuming success); simultaneously and in the interim, 2) Israel, as Adam wrote today, is hell bent on settling the WB; both of which are punctuated by the fact that, 3) Palestinian society can stand only so much before it either erupts or succumbs and the whole process starts over, gets redefined, or cannot be reconstituted.

        That’s a lot of risk for Palestinians to assume, even with an assured, just outcome at the end. Without that assurance, the fight for Palestinian justice could very likely be at the same (1S-2S?) point it is today, only 20 years hence, and with considerably less to discuss.

        Two-states is certainly the preferred outcome to many, Israeli and Palestinian alike. Heck it’s my preferred outcome, fwiw. But I think there’s a pragmatic diminishing returns/risk reward/public rhetoric decision (acknowledgement??) coming soon – if it hasn’t been made already.

        You make people think, whether they want to or not. Appreciated.

      • ritzl
        March 16, 2013, 10:53 pm

        Shorter, maybe less breathless version: To quote a line from one of my favorite movies (“A Fairy Tale: A True Story,” an excellent treatment of the human eddy at the intersection of hope and belief), “I agree with your findings, but not your conclusions.” I mean that with the greatest respect, and a fervent hope that you are right about the legal impetus for two states.

  2. pabelmont
    March 13, 2013, 3:37 pm

    There is also the small matter of the $3B and the UNSC VETO.

    There is no need to talk about peace if the nations (or even just our president) are willing to talk about sanctions to bring about removal of all settlers and all settlement buildings (residences, factories, universities, town halls, etc.,) — the doing of which should be carefully distinguished from peace-making and described solely as an effort to return Israel to the happy situation of compliance with international law (which forbids settlements).

    This may be even more unlikely of accomplishment than other possibilities but isn’t it implicit in any efforts to create a “just and lasting peace” that the Palestinians could accept?

    • James Canning
      March 13, 2013, 6:55 pm

      pabelmont – – What would be the benefit of destroying the buildings put up in the illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank?

      • Taxi
        March 14, 2013, 1:45 am

        The benefit of destroying the settler compounds would be the re-beautification of Palestine: so architecturally ugly and loaded with evil symbolism these structures are.

      • Annie Robbins
        March 14, 2013, 2:31 am

        i’ll second that taxi

      • bintbiba
        March 14, 2013, 6:50 am

        Hideous and evil!
        They mutilate the gentle surroundings!

      • Sumud
        March 14, 2013, 12:04 pm

        Agree the settlements are a revolting scar on the landscape. When I see pictures of them perched on the hilltops looking down over Palestinian villages I always think for some reason of storm troopers from Star Wars.

        As for their removal, this is desirable but I’m not sure if it is practically possible any more.

      • James Canning
        March 14, 2013, 1:56 pm

        I assume you care little for the increasing difficulty of any deal to get Israel out of the West Bank, if there is a demand to destroy all buildings put up by illegal settlers. Not to mention waste.

      • Taxi
        March 15, 2013, 1:37 am

        james canning,
        Clearly you’re the most ‘caring’ blogger on MW, uhuh.

        But do tell us which part of ‘the raped don’t want to live in the rapist’s house’ do you not understand?

      • sardelapasti
        March 15, 2013, 2:15 am

        Canning – We know you are very generous and usually give away Palestinian rights and assets. Now we see that your generosity is in fact boundless, with your dogged insistence in imposing on the Palestinians the takeover of the ugliest possible buildings in the known universe, instead of spending their hard-earned future war damages on building to their own taste –or razing all the locust colonies for a more livable environment.
        What makes this generosity more admirable is the way you insist on bringing up these irrelevant side issues when people are onto something else, and keeping them alive by your sheer insistence.

      • James Canning
        March 15, 2013, 2:13 pm

        Sardelapast – – And the surveys of Palestinian esthetic opinion, regarding the illegal houses and flats occupied by Jews in the West Bank, that you seem to claim to rely on? Or is it your esthetic opinion?

        Persoanlly, I do not admire what the illegal settlers have built. But then, I think much modern construction in the US and Britain leaves much to be desired, esthetically.

      • sardelapasti
        March 15, 2013, 8:55 pm

        PS. to Canning:
        Do you know how many years it takes for a replanted olive tree to produce decent olives and oil? This “housing” is on the holes left by uprooted olive trees!

      • sardelapasti
        March 16, 2013, 1:58 am

        Canning – It is not “esthetic” and it is not meant to be a recommendation one way or the other, but avoid recommendations. It is just a rejection of your insistence to speak in the name of Palestinians. Be it for the “done deal” of giving up land or keeping buildings… It has nothing to do with Palestinian opinion surveys either, but it is about future decisions by a duly empowered, fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, not some fart by disarmed Quislings.
        [By the way, if any personal opinion had to be introduced, there is nothing more nasty, puke-inducing, revolting and dehumanizing than an American suburb, which is exactly what these horrors are --that's probably why Zionists like them.]

        More importantly, the post was a protest to the way you managed to deviate the discussion.

      • James Canning
        March 16, 2013, 1:30 pm

        Sardelapasti – – You appear to argue that a treaty between Israel and Palesine would not address issues of land ownership or claimed ownership. I think you are mistaken.

      • James Canning
        March 16, 2013, 1:38 pm

        Sardelapasti – – I am keenly aware of the havoc perpetrated by illegal Jewish settlers in the West Bank, and especially the ruthless smashing of ancient olive groves.

      • marc b.
        March 14, 2013, 8:32 am

        that’s right, pablemont, annie, taxi. any evidence of the settlements is like the lingering scent of a dog marking its territory. wash it all away. and it would just be another element supporting ‘the enduring, historical connection of the jewish people to the land of …. yada yada’.

      • zenreaper
        March 14, 2013, 12:07 pm

        I would think it would be akin to the Iraqis tearing down the monuments and mansions of Hussein after he was deposed. Of course, I do not expect Israeli supporters to understand this, as they have NO desire to forget their past, it is the trigger by which they extort the world. Auswitch (sp?) is a perfect example. Some people wish to FORGET abuses and move forward, they do not.

      • eljay
        March 15, 2013, 9:35 am

        I wouldn’t expect the Palestinians to want to tear down all the settlements just for the sake of tearing them down, but it would certainly make sense and be within their right:
        – to dismantle the ones they find offensive or ill-situated; and
        – to “re-work” / re-model / “de-colonialize” the ones they find less offensive and/or more useful.

      • James Canning
        March 15, 2013, 4:48 pm

        Interesting issues of property rights, zoning, etc etc would obtain, to be sure.

  3. Donald
    March 13, 2013, 3:57 pm

    Just read the Birnbaum piece in the New Republic. Full of the usual liberal Zionist take on things–all violence is caused by Palestinians, for instance. And what really amuses me is when he interviews a Hamas leader who envisions most Israeli Jews leaving–he obviously thinks that appalling and he’s right, but it never crosses his mind that the Zionist desire for a Jewish state with the Palestinians not allowed back is the same thing.

    The blindspot they have seems incurable.

  4. American
    March 13, 2013, 4:09 pm

    ”And anyone who claims to oppose the occupation and support the 2SS while insisting that the United States must back Israel no matter what it does is either delusional or disingenuous.”’…Walt

    As we been saying and saying.

  5. just
    March 13, 2013, 4:18 pm

    I especially appreciate Khalidi’s message!

    Walt is correct, so is Blumenthal.

    I fervently hope that Mr. Obama is ‘listening’, that Mr. Biden got the message and that things change and quickly. I always thought that it would take a 2nd term for Mr. Obama to be honest, just, and serious about the I/P situation– please do not disappoint us and most of the world with the status quo.

    Perhaps Mr. Obama should ask Jimmy Carter, Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu for some guidance. Then he should confirm this with his higher power, and do the right thing– NOW. It’s not too terribly difficult to see what is right and just, though breaking bad habits can be a challenge. The world is waiting…………………the Palestinians have waited for what must seem an eternity. We must end our hypocrisy.

  6. Kathleen
    March 13, 2013, 4:27 pm

    Walt “If you genuinely believe in “two states for two peoples,” then you ought to be openly calling for the United States to act like a true global power and knock some heads together. And anyone who claims to oppose the occupation and support the 2SS while insisting that the United States must back Israel no matter what it does is either delusional or disingenuous.”

    “Knock some heads together” or stop providing cover for Israel and get out of the way. Walt almost always nails it. No nonsense cuts through the bs with brilliance

  7. ToivoS
    March 13, 2013, 4:35 pm

    Glad to see that Max is saying the obvious, a point I have been pushing for a few months. That is, the most the US should do right now on the IP issue is to do nothing. Ike’s advice to his aids was that often “don’t just do something, stand there” — it applies here in spades.

    Let the center of gravity shift to Europe. Let BDS work its charm. Of course, BDS in the US is important, the point is the US government needs to step back. Our politics are just too broken to do any good.

  8. RJL
    March 13, 2013, 4:57 pm

    Guys, you’re forgetting UNSC resolution 242-negotiations between the 2 sides are the only way to forge a peaceful solution. The 67 line isn’t a legally accepted border; it’s an armistice line. And if the contributors to this site believe only in a one, Palestinian state, then please explain what assurances there are for the current Jews to live in it as equals, at peace with a population that more than just hates them. Is the one state idea the opium for the Jewish masses, knowing fully well that it cloaks a far more sinister outcome? Didn’t the PA foreign minister tell Hilary Clinton over a year ago, no Jews allowed in a Palestinian state? I haven’t seen anything, other than wishful, politically correct comments, to address this live or die dilemma.

    • Blank State
      March 14, 2013, 12:17 am

      RJL….

      Aren’t you the liar that claimed that the IAEA has established that Iran has an active “nuclear weapons program”???? Your credibility is nil. Like zero. Tell me, why should we respect the opinion, or even bother to read the opinion, of someone that lies so blatantly and easily, not even caring that that the audience for his lie will immediately recognize the lie? It makes no sense, man. Why post here when you have so completely trashed any chance you had of being taken seriously?

      • marc b.
        March 14, 2013, 9:09 am

        Tell me, why should we respect the opinion, or even bother to read the opinion, of someone that lies so blatantly and easily, …

        because, he/she opens his/her comment with ‘guys’, as if there was an established connection between the commenter and those who sincerely seek a solution to this problem. hasbara talking point #? ‘appear to share a common purpose with critics of zionism’.

    • kalithea
      March 14, 2013, 5:24 am

      Let’s go back in history, as politicians through the ages have made great blunders, and NOTHING they do is written in stone for future generations, because if that were the case, the South in America would still be slave country.

      So the early Zionists in Europe cooked up a crazy scheme, that’s really an ideology that was inherently unjust and supremacist in nature and consequently was executed and sustained through a succession of crimes up to the present. Right there, lies the legal justification to nullify whatever condition that Resolution stipulates, besides you Zionists have breached and trashed so many Resolutions how can you expect to retain a shred of credibility to act in good faith, not to mention all the other bad and evil things you’ve been up to?

      Lemme give you an analogy of how Zionism will end and it’ll hurt you more than me: Zionism was Herzl’s first child and as with his other children and grandchild, it too consistently comes with a premature expiry date. As a matter of fact, I predict that as with 2 of his children and grandchild, his only remaining “child” will also self-destruct. Or do you not find it ironic, no doubt karmic, that none of his human offspring were able to enjoy his other creation, Zionism?

      “Is the one state idea the opium for the Jewish masses, knowing fully well that it cloaks a far more sinister outcome?”

      What could be more sinister than the outcome that Zionism cloaks?

      Hmm, so you want guarantees after behaving so badly? What guarantees could one possibly expect after committing a succession of crimes against another to get what one wants? I’d say you Zionists made that bed and if you get what’s coming to you, it’s self-inflicted so quit blaming others!

      But hey, don’t be so dramatic, you’re lucky this is the 21st Century and you still get to play the victim card. Only, I suspect that you’ve overplayed that hand too. My hope is that you’ll end up at the mercy of justice and that you’ll receive the same amount of it that you dished out to the Palestinians all these years.

      You’re right, if you think I have no pity…for scoundrels, murderers and thieves, but hey, maybe others can forgive all that!

    • talknic
      March 14, 2013, 9:05 am

      RJL

      “Guys, you’re forgetting UNSC resolution 242-negotiations between the 2 sides ..”

      Uh? Aren’t you forgetting that UNSC res 242 was to end the conflict between already existing “states”. Try reading it link to wp.me without substituting or adding any zioweasel words

      “The 67 line isn’t a legally accepted border; it’s an armistice line. ”

      Correct Israel’s borders have never officially changed from the day ” that the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″ link to trumanlibrary.org and was recognized as such.

      “.. if the contributors to this site believe only in a one, Palestinian state, then please explain what assurances there are for the current Jews to live in it as equals..”

      That assurance was given almost a hundred years ago.. reiterated in 1948 link to wp.me

      “.. at peace with a population that more than just hates them”

      You’d simply love a neighbour who illegally acquires your home, boots you out of it and settles there themselves…. right? Sure you would.

      “Didn’t the PA foreign minister tell Hilary Clinton over a year ago, no Jews allowed in a Palestinian state?”

      No Israelis or no Jews? I’ll bet it was the former…

      “I haven’t seen anything, other than wishful, politically correct comments, to address this live or die dilemma”

      You wouldn’t see it if it was nailed to your forehead. Israel wants a one state solution, a Greater Israel. Please explain what assurances there are for the current Arabs to live in it as equals, at peace with a population that more than just hates them, it sees to it they’re evicted at every opportunity.

    • Donald
      March 14, 2013, 11:32 am

      “The 67 line isn’t a legally accepted border; it’s an armistice line”

      followed by

      “And if the contributors to this site believe only in a one, Palestinian state, then please explain what assurances there are for the current Jews to live in it as equals, at peace with a population that more than just hates them. ”

      Why can’t you make an argument that isn’t racist? You don’t want a 1SS–fine. Argue for it on the grounds that BOTH sides contain haters. But no, you have to pretend it’s only one side. You’re only fooling yourself.

      So you prefer a 2SS. But not on the 67 lines, obviously. You want Israel to benefit from the land theft it’s been engaged in since 1967.

      If all the people on the Israeli side who claim to want a 2SS actually wanted it, we’d have a very different political situation. But a great many professed 2SS supporters place a higher priority on taking and keeping as much of the West Bank as possible.

    • Sumud
      March 14, 2013, 12:15 pm

      Didn’t the PA foreign minister tell Hilary Clinton over a year ago, no Jews allowed in a Palestinian state?

      Link please.

      Salam Fayyad has stated he would accept jewish settlers as Palestinian citizens in a future Palestinian state if they wanted to stay in the West Bank:

      Palestinian prime minister: Jews would be welcome in future state

  9. David Doppler
    March 13, 2013, 6:00 pm

    There hasn’t been much coverage in either Mondoweiss or the MSM of the ongoing coalition building process in Israel, despite what I expect would be a growing interest among the American public with its outcome. Moreover, the processes being undertaking can be deeply educational for Americans too accustomed to a one-dimensional presentation – here is Israel’s Prime Minister, standing ovations please.

    For example, Netanyahu last weekend accused upstart leader Yair Lapid of the Yesh Adit party of being “Anti-Semitic” for refusing to be part of a coalition with the Orthodox religious parties that made up a small but important part of the prior coalition. Seems he and the other settler upstart, Naftali Bennett of Habayit Hayehudi, ran in part on platforms calling for repealing exemptions from military service, and against generous public doles supporting students in orthodox study programs. If that doesn’t devalue the Anti-Semite smear as too often used to silence debate here in our own country, it ought to.

    More fundamentally, the diverse factions defy the Left-Right dichotomy that prevails in our country. We tend to see Israel as Democrat-like Labor versus Republican-like Likud, but Labor has all but disappeared, while Likud, more closely resembles Neocons, and has allied/merged itself with Beiteinu, whose leader Avigdor Lieberman, former Russian bouncer, is under indictment for corruption, and whose campaign included an ad stating that he was the only candidate who “speaks Arabic,” code not for linguistic agility, but for communicating with this “Other” through brutality, the only language they in their beast-like inferiority can understand. The Orthodox religious, the Settler groups, and Yair Lapid’s group, which wants to focus on domestic issues like housing and middle class living issues, really don’t have a counterpart in our political culture. Not since Monty Python’s Life of Brian do we in America get to see so many Israeli parties with so many diverse (and to us, initially confusing) perspectives.

    Netanyahu’s heavy-handed tactics trying to force together his coalition, including daily predictions of imminent victory, slander of opponents, accusations of abetting the Iranian and terrorist enemies, have progressively shown him as both heavy-handed, and increasingly incompetent and impotent. Lapid asserts he will force new elections, if he doesn’t get his way, and his steadfastness in his principles in the struggle with Netanyahu, on top of his surprisingly strong showing could push his popularity upward, as Netanyahu’s tired heavy-handedness must surely be wearing ever thinner on his public. The momentum, certainly, is away from Netanyahu. If new elections were to be called, or if Peres invited someone else to form a government, it seems likely Netanyahu’s disgrace would drag Israeli public sentiment ever further away from the Likud/Neocon mission, their so-called Clean Break, which has worked out exactly opposite from prediction, and deserves to be dumped on history’s ashheap. Mondoweiss and its readers I believe should wholeheartedly support Netanyahu’s failure.

    Dump Likud-Beiteinu! Save Israel. Save the Middle East. Save America.

    • Annie Robbins
      March 14, 2013, 2:42 pm

      thanks for the suggestion david. not sure if you read link to mondoweiss.net

      this came out on the day the pairing of bennet and yair was announced, which came out in the comments. i went to hear noam sheizaf speak the next night. which was fascinating, and i like reading about it too. but for the most part i’m not so sure people come to mondoweiss to read analysis of internal israeli politics. i go to 972 myself. anyway, only 6 shares. hmm.

  10. James Canning
    March 13, 2013, 6:54 pm

    I agree with Steve Walt that getting Israel to end the occupation of the West Bank requires heavy pressure from Washington.

  11. Nevada Ned
    March 13, 2013, 7:13 pm

    Rashid Khalidi is always worth reading.

  12. yonah fredman
    March 13, 2013, 8:43 pm

    “replete with Arabophobic art” the tnr article:
    Unless you are referring to the print magazine, which I have not seen, the only art is that of an Arab wearing a kafiyeh, opposite a Jew wearing tallit and tefillin. How is this Arabophobic?

  13. piotr
    March 13, 2013, 10:16 pm

    “Yesterday Max Blumenthal told me that if Obama commits to the nostrum of two-states for two people living side by side on this trip, then god help us, we’re looking at a long dark future.”

    Critique 1: I miss the point of Phillip quoting Max. Is it “Max said so but I am not so sure” or “Max convinced me that”?

    Critique 2: Were it come to pass that Obama would COMMIT to “two states for two people”, the future would be brighter. While English is not my mother tongue, I think that “to commit” to something at the very least means a declaration followed by firm actions. Otherwise it is not a commitment (quite unlikely) but dissimulation (I can bet 500 bucks against 5 that we will see that).

    • ToivoS
      March 14, 2013, 7:01 pm

      Phil quoted Max because it was counter-intuitive as well as being the opposite of what most people think. I think Max is right — US politics are so broken when it comes to Israel that we should not try to do anything but let the Israelis manage the Palestinians. The problem with “doing things” is that these “things” are designed by the Israelis and fed into US politics by the lobby. They are by design policies that give cover to Israel expansion into the WB. Dennis Ross and Martin Indyk are the masters of this process and the many neocons of the last Admin perfected them. Obama is surrounded by the same kinds of advisers. The one thing that he can do is to decide to stop the charade. He does not have the power to pressure Israel to change.

      • James Canning
        March 16, 2013, 4:18 pm

        ToivoS – – Perhaps Obama does have the power but simply is unwilling to employ it effectively.

    • James Canning
      March 14, 2013, 7:58 pm

      I too expect blather from Obama. Sadly.

  14. dbroncos
    March 13, 2013, 11:36 pm

    The American “war on terror” is something else that will go the way of the “peace process”. It won’t end until there’s a resolution to the I/P conflict. Americans will remain the subjects of scorn and ridicule in the Arab world and beyond, as well as being the targets of lethal violence committed by those who won’t give up the cause until Americans give up on Zionism. I don’t know if Obama understands this or not but its a truism that every person who has killed or is killed in the “war on terror” has done so in a fight either for or against Zionism. The ever increasing cost to Americans of supporting the Jewish state include not just blood and treasure but also the loss of morale that comes with the understanding that we are fighting a losing/lost war in defense of Israeli fascism. Sadly, there’s no end in sight and we are indeed “looking at a dark future.”

  15. just
    March 13, 2013, 11:50 pm

    RJL @ 1657– you make very little sense. You wrote ” haven’t seen anything, other than wishful, politically correct comments, to address this live or die dilemma.”

    It’s clear that most zionists want domination, ownership of all the land (by hook or by crook) and the indigenous Palestinians gone. They have proved that they don’t care if it must be accomplished with hasbara and lies or formidable armaments (including undeclared nukes). Millions of people tried and succeeded in defeating Adolph and save the Jewish people, the gays, the Gypsies, and the “broken” and disenfranchised.

    The gays, the Gypsies, the broken and disenfranchised are still suffering.

    Please, follow in the steps of the caring humans rather than in the boots of the oppressor/occupier.

  16. giladg
    March 14, 2013, 5:19 am

    Pulling our hair out before Oslo was signed. “Don’t sign it” we screamed !!!!!

    Many of us, who understood that Oslo will fail before it was signed, understood that the main ingredient missing in the peace equation was, and still is, Palestinian recognition of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Without this recognition, there will never be a true peace process and there will never be peace.
    The impact of such a recognition cannot be understated. With it will come the understanding that zero tolerance to radical Islam is a must. With it will come the understanding that some things will need to be shared. Yes, even with Jews. With it will come the understand that Jews have made massive sacrifices already and great injustices have been waged against the Jewish people and for thousands of years.
    The Walts, and the Meirsheimers and the Weiss’s and the Mondoweiss faithful have no idea what the heck I am talking about. But the Barghouti’s of the world do. The Khalidi’s do. The Palestinian intellectuals do. And they avoid the subject because they know very well what I am talking about, and they know what will need to be done as a result. And they will do whatever they can to distort the story and avoid having to take the hard decisions. The real key to unlocking the peace puzzle is with the Palestinian Muslims and Christians, and not the Jews.

    • Annie Robbins
      March 14, 2013, 10:09 am

      “Don’t sign it” we screamed !!!!!……Many of us, who understood that Oslo will fail before it was signed, understood that the main ingredient missing in the peace equation was, and still is, Palestinian recognition of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.

      can you link to some pre oslo source for what ‘many of you understood’? because, as i understood it, the demand was originally recognition as a state, or something to that effect. and then only after they fulfilled that demand, the transformation to recognition as the nation state of the Jewish people got tacked on. and why should palestinians be required to ‘recognize’ their homeland as ‘jewish’?

      • kalithea
        March 14, 2013, 1:40 pm

        That’s a great response. I hear crickets.

        Note this too: “With it will come the understanding that SOME THINGS will need to be shared.”

        “some” things?…oh, how generous, masters!

        What a piece of work! Zionists think everyone was born yesterday and they reinvented the wheel.

        And of course he has to throw this meme into the mix: ” great injustices have been waged against the Jewish people and for thousands of years” cause you can’t have hasbara without playing the eternal victim card which justifies all the evil they do.

        Oh, and notice how he throws in “Christians” at the end, to further underscore the “everyone is against us, poor-poor us” meme.

        Emotional blackmail, the sad-sack guilt trip, raising the bar at each turn with impossible limits…these are just some of the cheap tricks in the Zionist hasbara bag.

      • sardelapasti
        March 14, 2013, 1:40 pm

        Everyday confirms that the only thing that is really infinite in this universe is the shamelessness of Zionists! So they screamed “don’t sign it!” just exactly as the Palestinian people did? Yarright. They got a nice, docile municipal puppet government to take the blame, a police force they don’t have to pay to put down any revolt an disarm the people, and now some have the added crust of talking against it. Almost as good as the guy who asked for forgiveness after killing his parents, on the grounds that he is an orphan.

    • eljay
      March 14, 2013, 10:28 am

      >> … the main ingredient missing in the peace equation was, and still is, Palestinian recognition of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.

      “Jewish State” is a supremacist construct. Palestinians were and are right not to recognize Israel as “Jewish State”.

      As for missing main ingredients, justice and morality would number the following among them:
      – an immediate and complete halt to the on-going occupation and colonization of Palestine;
      – a full withdrawal from Palestine, back to within Partition borders; and
      – accountability for Zio-supremacist crimes committed.

    • Light
      March 14, 2013, 12:29 pm

      Many of us, who understood that Oslo will fail before it was signed, understood that the main ingredient missing in the peace equation was, and still is, Palestinian recognition of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people

      The only thing Israel can be is the nation state of Israeli citizens. There is no reason for Palestinians or anyone else to recognize Israel as anything more than that.

      • sardelapasti
        March 14, 2013, 6:07 pm

        “The only thing Israel can be is the nation state of Israeli citizens”
        Too late for that recognition, too.

      • Light
        March 14, 2013, 6:55 pm

        Too late for that recognition, too.

        Possibly, although I thought it had occurred in 1993. In any case, it was only a statement about what could be recognized.

      • sardelapasti
        March 15, 2013, 2:07 am

        1993? Oh yeah? Is a disarmed collaboratorationist government, not even in charge of collecting city taxes or fixing the sewers, allowed to represent a nation? And, as you said, there was a minimum of dignity with the ex-fighter Arafat, and only a conditional statement was made.

    • Sumud
      March 14, 2013, 12:34 pm

      Many of us, who understood that Oslo will fail before it was signed, understood that the main ingredient missing in the peace equation was, and still is, Palestinian recognition of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.

      Another insightful comment from La La Land.

      It’s not the half a million settlers. It’s not the fact the more than half of Israel’s fresh water is stolen from the West Bank. It isn’t that Netanyahu was caught boasting on camera about how he’d sabotaged Oslo.

      No, none of that; it’s the Palestinians fault because they won’t submit to a recently-added absurd demand that has no precedent or sensible meaning in the ways countries relate to each other.

      Whatever Palestinians do Israel rejects and goes on building more and more and more settlements. Well, they have won the battle, but lost the war. The great gamble of 1967 has been lost as withdrawal is impossible and the world will never accept Israel as an apartheid state.

    • James Canning
      March 14, 2013, 3:25 pm

      Proliferation of illegal Jewish settlements in West Bank, after Oslo deal signed, did not help.

    • Kathleen
      March 15, 2013, 4:13 pm

      “With it will come the understand that Jews have made massive sacrifices already and great injustices have been waged against the Jewish people and for thousands of years.” WTF did Jews sacrifice in the land that was dominated by Arabs the last couple of centuries? And don’t give us that Bible hogwash. Israel was created by the efforts both legal and mostly illegal of radical Zionist and then the UN. Jews have made absolutely no sacrifices in this case.

    • Donald
      March 15, 2013, 8:05 pm

      “the main ingredient missing in the peace equation was, and still is, Palestinian recognition of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Without this recognition, there will never be a true peace process and there will never be peace.
      The impact of such a recognition cannot be understated. With it will come the understanding that zero tolerance to radical Islam is a must. With it will come the understanding that some things will need to be shared.”

      One could write a long essay on how unintentionally self-revealing all this is. Demanding the Palestinians recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, rather than simply accept Israel’s legal existence, is demanding that Palestinians endorse the moral validity of their own expulsion. It’s breathtaking in its arrogance, but giladg and others can’t see that because they can’t feel anything remotely resembling empathy for any point of view other than their own.
      And this is the person who says he understands what Palestinian intellectuals really think.

      Actually, giladg, I agree that radical Islam is a problem for everyone in the region–radical Islamists are an intolerant bunch. What you don’t understand and perhaps can’t, is how similar your thinking is to theirs. That rightwing tribal thinking, that inability to understand that your own side is guilty of crimes that matter just as much as the crimes of your enemies, is something that unites you with those radical Islamists.

      “With it will come the understanding that some things will need to be shared.”

      See, if you had any self-awareness you’d understand the irony of that remark.

  17. Chu
    March 14, 2013, 10:24 am

    Obama needs to perform his best MLK shtick about restoring the spirit of people that have been placed in interment camps, while explaining how to get them out of these camps and back on their feet again without the constant threat of the repressive occupier.
    He could do that. Wasn’t his Cairo speech only four years ago? What does he have to lose? Now’s the big chance after his final US reelection. He shows the world that he is not afraid of the Zionist meddlers aiming to ethnically cleanse all of Jerusalem.

    Israel is perceived globally as a pariah, not Palestinians. Only the Congress and the media are still sniffing the ziocane fumes. Truth to Power will resonate across the globe – even if his party of suck-up democrats will cry foul.

  18. kalithea
    March 14, 2013, 1:21 pm

    These are some of the words that Obama expressed to welcome Pope Francis:

    “As a champion of the poor and the most vulnerable among us, he carries forth the message of love and compassion that has inspired the world for more than two thousand years—that in each other we see the face of God.

    I look forward to working with His Holiness to advance peace, security and dignity for our fellow human beings, regardless of their faith.”

    When Obama visits the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, I hope he purges his soul of his SIN of hypocrisy and for once in his Presidency steps out of his comfort zone and visits the poor and oppressed in refugee camps all around Bethlehem and condemns the WALL OF SHAME AND APARTHEID and the rampant, ongoing THEFT committed against these refugees! But then, with Obama, it’s always just a bunch empty words!

    How about some dignity, freedom and equality for our fellow HUMAN BEINGS, the Palestinians, for a change?

    And he should also ask himself when he’s “cleansing” his conscience there: Is it right to slaughter men, women and CHILDREN with DRONES? Can there be a more cowardly act than killing by remote control? And is he so blind that he can’t see the “face of God” in those slaughtered children?

    UGH! His hypocrisy is soooo STAGGERING and infuriating — is he blind to it too? I doubt it! Maybe he’s just A COWARD.

    The leader of the free world, my a…..s!

  19. giladg
    March 14, 2013, 1:26 pm

    Annie, we are not asking the Palestinians to recognize “their homeland” as Jewish. Unfortunately, there are parts of the land that will always be looked upon, by both sides, as “theirs”. Some parts of the land cannot be physically split to keep both sides happy. Therefor Clinton came up with the idea of vertical sovereignty and horizontal sovereignty. If you are so involved in the struggle supporting the Palestinians, then you need to go out of your way to understand what I am saying here.
    Oslo spoke in general terms about the big issues that would be negotiated later on. By the Palestinians acknowledging that Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people, they are by implication saying that they understand that there are places that will need to be shared. Again, do not under estimate what I am saying here. This is the core to the conflict. The talk about settlements is used as a distraction.

    And another thing. Oslo, from the Israeli side, was negotiated by secular, leftist, atheist, agnostic Israeli Jews. These Israeli’s decided to back off from placing an emphasis on Jewish interests. The net effect of their efforts was to give the Palestinians a message that they need not compromise on the major issues that touch the Jewish people. And so we are now deeper into the mess than we were before Oslo.
    There are calls in Israel to some of the negotiators like Beilin and Savir to be prosecuted for selling out their people. The current government is trying to rectify this damage.

    • Annie Robbins
      March 14, 2013, 5:56 pm

      you need to go out of your way to understand what I am saying here.

      no i don’t. you should be held accountable to your words: link to mondoweiss.net

      produce some evidence for what “Many …. understood …recognition of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people” pre oslo.

      we are not asking the Palestinians to recognize “their homeland” as Jewish.

      of course you are, otherwise you would not be whining to kingdom come about this so called ‘recognition’ that’s been added on. y’lil goalpost mover. now find a pre olso link, or cease and desist this game.

      There are calls in Israel to some of the negotiators like Beilin and Savir to be prosecuted for selling out their people. The current government is trying to rectify this damage.

      by demanding more of palestinians no doubt! lol.

    • piotr
      March 14, 2013, 9:29 pm

      giladk is very helpful: “And another thing. Oslo, from the Israeli side, was negotiated by secular, leftist, atheist, agnostic Israeli Jews. These Israeli’s decided to back off from placing an emphasis on Jewish interests”

      This is my thought: in the event that Palestinians would recognize Israel as a “Jewish state”, they would be required to recognize Israel as a “very Jewish state” that has the right to put all inhabitants that are secular, leftist, atheist, agnostic and what not (not to mention other infidels like Christian and Muslim) in their proper place (to be established by Sanhedrin at the first opportunity).

      • Annie Robbins
        March 14, 2013, 11:51 pm

        oh, it would probably be something more along the lines of recognizing god gave jews the land. and then it would expand to ‘eretz israel’ or the land of israel, and before you know it they’d have to acknowledge the rightness of the noahide laws. who knows. it’s just a stupifying undying brainwashed need for recognition. it makes me want to puke.

        and then to claim Pulling our hair out…. “Don’t sign it” we screamed !!!!! as if, AS IF, that was being screamed pre oslo, we wouldn’t have all heard about it a million times over like we’ve heard of it ever since abbas kowtowed to the other recognition. it’s never enough and will never be enough for some people. obviously if any significant portion of jews either from within israel or in the diaspora were ‘screaming (!!!!)’ gilad would have posted a link by now. they weren’t. the hasbara campaign for this demand occurred after their previous demand had been fulfilled. so we know what’s ahead with the new demand, some new acknowledgement of what the implications of that recognition means. and no doubt it will be more repressive, because that’s all zionism knows how to act wrt palestinians, tighten the noose.

      • giladg
        March 15, 2013, 2:00 am

        Hang on Annie, you are being both unfair and a bully in demanding a link on pre-Oslo calls from Jews, for further discussion on the subject to continue. And this is after you criticize Israel of trying to move the goalposts when those who moved the goalposts where the Palestinians who clearly and blatantly defied and broke Oslo by going to the United Nations unilaterally. Oslo is dead so why are you trying to kick a dead horse? The fact that Yossi Beilin and Uri Savir, and Ron Pundak and Shimon Peres, and Yitzhak Rabin (as prime minister ultimately responsible and paid with his life) did not formalize a paragraph in the Oslo Agreements about Israel being recognized as the nation state of the Jewish people is not because there where no Israeli’s calling for this but because they backed away from the blow back they got when they tried to talk about this at Oslo. And so they caused major damage to the Jewish people, damage that they will never be forgiven for incurring. You cannot say now that there was no mention about Israel being the nation state of the Jewish people. This was one of the reasons for creating the modern state in the first place. We did not have to wait for 1993 to verbalize this in a treacherous, sellout document. The demand that Palestinians recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people is not going to conveniently go away. You had better get used to this and for the purpose of peace, discuss its implications in detail. Or you can pursue a common tactic used when trying to ignore and deflect a position that takes the shine out of some of the positions the side you on has taken, by forcefully shutting down discussion.

      • giladg
        March 15, 2013, 2:16 am

        Hang on Annie, you are being both unfair and a bully in demanding a link on pre-Oslo calls from Jews, for further discussion on the subject to continue. And this is after you criticize Israel of trying to move the goalposts when those who moved the goalposts where the Palestinians who clearly and blatantly defied and broke Oslo by going to the United Nations unilaterally. Oslo is dead so why are you trying to kick a dead horse? The fact that Yossi Beilin and Uri Savir, and Ron Pundak and Shimon Peres, and Yitzhak Rabin (as prime minister ultimately responsible and paid with his life) did not formalize a paragraph in the Oslo Agreements about Israel being recognized as the nation state of the Jewish people is not because there where no Israeli’s calling for this but because they backed away from the blow back they got when they tried to talk about this at Oslo. And so they caused major damage to the Jewish people, damage that they will never be forgiven for incurring. You cannot say now that there was no mention about Israel being the nation state of the Jewish people. This was one of the reasons for creating the modern state in the first place. We did not have to wait for 1993 to verbalize this in a treacherous, sellout document. The demand that Palestinians recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people is not going to conveniently go away. You had better get used to this and for the purpose of peace, discuss its implications in detail.

        By the way Annie, do you remember your comment last year about the attack on Egyptian soldiers in Sinai? I am referring to your comment about Palestinians being involved? Well guess what, the Egyptians have now named 3 Hamas members as being involved in that attack. And yes, just in case you forgot, it is Palestinians who belong to Hamas.

      • American
        March 15, 2013, 4:51 pm

        “You had better get used to this and for the purpose of peace, discuss its implications in detail”…gilad

        we better get use to it?……whose gonna make us get use to it?

      • Cliff
        March 16, 2013, 6:42 am

        gilad-g says:
        You had better get used to this and for the purpose of peace, discuss its implications in detail.

        —–

        That sounds like a disgusting (typical) Zionist threat.

        The Palestinians will never agree to it.

        Their suffering isn’t due to this worthless, illegitimate recognition. There is no Jewish homeland.

        Their suffering is to Zionist greed.

      • Annie Robbins
        March 16, 2013, 11:30 pm

        whose gonna make us get use to it?

        whooooaaaa, have yet to succumb to the ‘slave mentality’ yet eh?

    • Kathleen
      March 15, 2013, 4:19 pm

      “Therefor Clinton came up with the idea of vertical sovereignty and horizontal sovereignty.” Vertical and horizontal sovereignty sounds like something Dennis Ross, the Wurmsers of Perle came up with.

      giladg “The talk about settlements is used as a distraction.” The distraction are those who call the talk about illegal settlements being a distraction.. Sounds Rumsfeldian. The illegal settlements are the key issue.

  20. kalithea
    March 14, 2013, 1:26 pm

    Okay I reposted the last comment because it never appeared and now I see that some of my comments are STILL awaiting moderation. Can I ask what’s the problem now? Or is that too much to ask?

  21. Ellen
    March 14, 2013, 2:53 pm

    “Obama’s Israel agenda: negotiate, visit sites – and dine with beauty queen ”

    link to csmonitor.com

    An interesting read. I do not know if the CS author intended this, but she reveals the cynical use propaganda use of a young Israeli woman (who came as an very young Ethiopian orphan to Israel and is completely brainwashed on all the talking points — “land of Israel blah blah.”)

    So the image makers of Israel vote a black beauty to represent Israel for world public image repair, and pathetically set up a dinner date with the first Black POTUS and the first Israeli Black Beauty Queen.

    This embarrassing primitive propaganda is a gift to Comedy Central.

    • MHughes976
      March 14, 2013, 6:07 pm

      Reported in the Independent quite briefly, the tone seeming to be a mixture of ‘Isn’t that sweet?’ with a hint that Obama is making a stand for non-white Israelis. No doubt Professor Beinart will remind us sternly that we don’t protest against Hamas’ thuggish refusal to hold beauty contests.

  22. RJL
    March 14, 2013, 11:35 pm

    Your circle of talkers are deaf to anything from the outside. NOT ONE of you airheads answered my question: what assurances, if any, would proponents of a 1 state solution offer to keep, protect, and provide full equality to its Jewish citizens? All I get back in return is deconstructing my comments into small lines, which you folks think is humorous? Or, the zany comment this equality was “assured” over 100 years ago, under Ottoman rule? Either you post thought-provoking, intelligent comments that don’t like to Mondoweiss, but to normal neutral sites, or post on something akin to comedy central. Annie, could you please capitalize the i, unless you’re so very modest.
    I’d really like a response, like a referral to some Palestinian leaders. By the way, experts, Fayyad is PM, not FM, and yes, Fayyad (who’s probably one of the few normals among them) did say that, but the Palestinian envoy to the U.S. (I stand corrected)did say No Jews in Palestine, around Sept. of 2011. It’s what they say in Arabic, to their own people, that counts. The rest is to be taken with a large pinch of salt (not kosher salt, either. Hah).

    • Annie Robbins
      March 15, 2013, 12:14 am

      but the Palestinian envoy to the U.S. (I stand corrected)did say No Jews in Palestine, around Sept. of 2011

      here: link to electronicintifada.net

      (note the update, there were only a few hours before the news of his actual words and meaning became clear)

      btw, are you familiar with search engines? link to en.wikipedia.org

      they come in handy. for beginners, i would suggest this one link to google.com

      it’s not that hard to find this stuff. even if you don’t know Areikat’s name you can just place ‘plo ambassador to US’ in the ‘search box’ , and then ‘no jews in palestine’. it’s not that hard. good luck, and with some practice i am sure you’ll get the hang of it.

      • James Canning
        March 15, 2013, 1:41 pm

        Annie – – Do you agree with Ali Abunimah that Palestine should be willing to have Jewish citizens?

      • Annie Robbins
        March 16, 2013, 12:07 am

        there are already many palestinians married to jewish people who already live in occupied palestine. i think they should be able to grant residency and citizenship to whomever they want, and i am certain many would be jews. so yes of course. but don’t you mean ‘would be willing’? unlike zionists, i don’t think most palestinians are racist, or have those kinds of aspirations.

      • Cliff
        March 16, 2013, 6:39 am

        Canning,

        Do you think Jewish citizens should be imposed on this hypothetical Palestine?

        How about crossing that bridge when ‘we’ come to it?

        Instead of using it as a rhetorical point to pivot around Palestinian self-determination and liberation.

        Palestinians live under Jewish colonialism and Zionist oppression.

        Why are you concerned about a hypothetical situation where Palestinians may or may not want to live with Jewish COLONISTS (those are the only people who’d immediately be incorporated into this Palestine because they’re already there illegally)?

      • James Canning
        March 16, 2013, 2:11 pm

        Cliff — Have you given much study to diplomatic history? Sometimes terms of a proposed peace ageement are discussed for years, prior to the achievement of a deal.

        What is your estimate of the taxable income Jewish residents of Palestine might be enjoying?

    • Hostage
      March 15, 2013, 12:35 am

      Your circle of talkers are deaf to anything from the outside. NOT ONE of you airheads answered my question: what assurances, if any, would proponents of a 1 state solution offer to keep, protect, and provide full equality to its Jewish citizens?

      The archives here are full of comments which explain that the rights of minorities, religious groups, and women in Palestine were placed under the protection of the United Nations organization. The ICJ cited the sacred trust of civilization mentioned in Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations and the General Assembly’s resolution of November 1947 as the bases of the UN’s permanent responsibilty for the Question of Palestine until it is settled in accordance with international legitimacy. It has always been the UN that has hounded Israel and the Arab states over truce violations and violations of human rights and which refuses to drop the matter. The US and the NATO countries have also given Israel permanent assurances regarding its security and volunteered to provide a peacekeeping force.

      If your questions are supposed to be taken seriously, then try asking some that are a bit more petenent. Israel and its allies are a threat to the region, not the Palestinians.

      • Annie Robbins
        March 15, 2013, 1:52 am

        hostage, this is a little OT but i wanted to get your opinion link to jpost.com

        Files request to prosecute “Palestine,” as a state; allege crimes by Palestinians against Israelis and Palestinians alike

        An Israeli law firm on Thursday formally announced its request to the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Fatou Bensada, to open a criminal investigation into violations by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and nine members of Hamas for war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes of aggression.

        The allegations include alleged war crimes against Israeli civilians and by the Palestinians against rival Palestinian groups, such as Fatah’s forces against Hamas’s sympathizers during rounds of in-fighting.

        ……. the ICC prosecutor has a little known and almost entirely unused power to essentially self-open an investigation and self-file an indictment against individuals for international law violations…..The power, referred to as the prosecutor’s “propio motu” power….
        ….

        the basis of the case against Abbas appeared to be reports of alleged war crimes his security forces committed against supporters and sympathizers of Hamas.

        At least in theory, anyone can bring information to the attention of Bensada, even an Israeli lawyer reporting on allegations not just against Israelis, but also by Palestinians, such as Abbas, against Palestinians.

      • NickJOCW
        March 15, 2013, 8:10 am

        Annie, For what it’s worth, I take this to be a frivolous exercise designed to cloud the significance of any PA approach to the ICC, so they can say they have a case with the court as well. If the Court has any gumption it will fine them for wasting its time.

      • Hostage
        March 15, 2013, 11:41 am

        hostage, this is a little OT but i wanted to get your opinion

        Kevin Jon Heller, Israeli Law Firm Wants the ICC to Investigate the PA and Hamas: This according to a bizarre — and bizarrely inaccurate — article in the Jerusalem Post. How many errors can you find?

        Even uber Zionists, like Prof Kontorovich point out that the Israeli Law firm is mistaken about the procedure in question and that the entire thing is quite bizarre. — link to opiniojuris.org

        I would add that the existing PA Article 12(3) declaration was not actually rejected. It is still in full force and effect. It allows the new Prosecutor to investigate all crimes listed in the Rome Statute that have been committed on the territory of Palestine since July of 2002, including those committed by Palestinians.

    • talknic
      March 15, 2013, 2:48 am

      RJL “NOT ONE of you airheads answered my question: what assurances, if any, would proponents of a 1 state solution offer to keep, protect, and provide full equality to its Jewish citizens?”

      A person who thinks UNSC res 242 was referring to the negotiation of borders between Palestine and Israel is an airhead.

      You have in fact been answered… Apart from Jordan, in 1948 the Arab States were (and still are) UN Members bound to abide by the UN Charter and the Laws and relevant Conventions it encompasses as is iterated in UNSC res 242 . To have

      ” respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;” link to wp.me

      “I’d really like a response, like a referral to some Palestinian leaders. “

      This is the same assurance the Palestinians will have to undertake on admission to the UN as a Member State regardless of who their leaders might be. Their attempt to make an official UN undertaking as an observer to adhere to the UN Charter and conventions was strangely, rebuffed. Opposed by Israel and the US.

      It’s the same assurance Israel gave and for which it has numerous UNSC resolutions against it for disrespect and non-acknowledgement ” .. of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;”

      The Arab States have exactly no UNSC resolutions for disrespecting and non-acknowledgement of “.. the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;”

    • Sumud
      March 15, 2013, 12:05 pm

      NOT ONE of you airheads answered my question: what assurances, if any, would proponents of a 1 state solution offer to keep, protect, and provide full equality to its Jewish citizens?

      I speculate that is a result of your melodramatic and typically one-eyed Israel-is-the-victim-in-this pitch.

      By the way, experts, Fayyad is PM, not FM, and yes, Fayyad (who’s probably one of the few normals among them) did say that, but the Palestinian envoy to the U.S. (I stand corrected)did say No Jews in Palestine, around Sept. of 2011.

      I never said Fayyad was FM. I asked YOU to provide a link backing up your statement and provided one about what Fayyad had said. Simple, no?

  23. German Lefty
    March 17, 2013, 5:34 pm

    Rashid Khalidi On Two-State Solution Fantasy:
    link to on.aol.com

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