Hiroshima epiphany

Israel/Palestine
on 119 Comments

Israeli activist Yuval Drier Shiloh is in Japan. He posted this report on a facebook page, which Ofer Neiman translated from the Hebrew:

Yuval in Hiroshima:

“Going through the pages of the guest book at the Hiroshima Peace Museum I found three comments by Israelis who had visited the place before us this week. Two of them thought the exhibition explains well why there is a need to attack Iran. They must have skipped the exhibit showing the global nuclear arsenal. The terrifying cluster of missiles in the Middle East is located on the Israeli spot, not the Iranian one. The third comment was by a young guy from Jerusalem: “Now I understand we’re not the only ones to have experienced a holocaust”.

119 Responses

  1. Citizen
    April 7, 2013, 11:27 am

    So, three Israeli jews visit the Hiroshima Peace Museum. Two of them equate Iran, which has not engaged in aggressive war in centuries, with Imperial Japan, a regime that made aggressive war its leitmotif. The third Israeli is amazed that another people has experienced a holocaust, despite Pearl Harbor, Japan’s imperial aggression against China, etc, and the fact no young Israeli has ever experienced a holocaust.

    What are we to make of this? In America, currently, the group continually shown as ignorant to the laughing extreme–are “rednecks.” This means mostly poor whites. In this sense, what shall we call the young Israeli jews who commented on the Museum exhibition? And wouldn’t that be doubling the slander on American redneck kids?

    • Daniel Rich
      April 7, 2013, 7:31 pm

      @ Citizen,

      Q: … with Imperial Japan, a regime that made aggressive war its leitmotif.

      R: No doubt Japan was an aggressive, murderous entity, back in the day. According to my wife, there was a little more to it:

      1853: commodore Perry – kurofune and coaling stations link

      20th century Japan was surrounded by:

      France colonizing Vietnam and Combodia
      Britain colonizing Malaysia, Hong Kong, India, Burma
      US colonizing Hawaii and the Philippines
      the Netherlands colonizing Indonesia, New Guinea

      The only thing I can say after having visited Hirsohima and Nagasaki is a feeling of tremendous sadness. Although more people died in the fire bombing of Tokyo in March 1945, the victors hold a right to their version of the truth and will defend it aggressively.

  2. pabelmont
    April 7, 2013, 11:29 am

    “We’re not the only ones to have experienced a holocaust.” Well, no. Pol Pot may have had a hand in another, and Africa (Rwanda). etc. “The Holocaust” ™ (two caps, quotes, ™) is a social construct over and above the physical “on-the-ground” (as so many say today) fact of the holocaust (no caps, no ™) of Jews (and many others) by the claiming-to-seek-racial-purity Nazis in 1930’s-45. The social construct is designed (and very effective) to build up Jewish fear and, from that fear, to build a Jewish (or perhaps merely Israeli) sense-of-entitlement: to land, to humiliate and disposses another people, to be free of the trammels of ordinary ethics, morals, and law (both international and, quite often, in Israel, by the government and military, local, to say nothing — I’d expect — of much Jewish law, including the Talmudic prohibition on ingathering Jews in Zion before God led the way).

    • miriam6
      April 8, 2013, 12:49 pm

      On the subject of Cambodia and Rwanda, the U.S had a hand in the destabilising of both countries. That’s putting it mildly.
      Between 1969 and 1975, at the height of the Vietnam War, the United states dropped the equivalent of FIVE HIROSHIMA bombs on rural Cambodia.
      It was the most intense aerial bombardment of a country in history – but American President Nixon and his foreign affairs chief Henry Kissinger denied it was even taking place.
      This bombing campaign helped create the conditions in Cambodia under which the hitherto unpopular Khmer Rouge found itself in power in Cambodia.
      This article by Helene Gold reflects on the extent to which Cambodian suffering was created largely by America’s ruthless policy towards Cambodia.
      link to web.archive.org
      Also America , along with Britain in the early 1990’s , supported Paul Kagame and the RPF against the then French supported Rwandan government, supporting and giving a” green light ” to the RPF’s efforts to overthrow the democratically elected government of the time.
      This outside meddling by vastly more powerful countries like America in Rwanda’s internal affairs only served to intensify the conflict between the mainly Hutu led ( the Hutu were the majority population ) government and the mainly Tutsi led RPF , thus leading to the carnage of April 1994.

      • miriam6
        April 8, 2013, 1:38 pm

        There is still also the unresolved question of who exactly was behind the assassination of the then President of Rwanda , Juvenal Habyarimana in early April 1994.
        The plane he had been travelling in was brought down by a missile .
        This act of international terrorism has been held to be the “trigger” event which created the pretext for the genocide.
        However, the U.N. investigation into the missile attack which blew the Rwandan President’s plane out of the air and killed him, was abandoned by the U.N. , under pressure from WASHINGTON
        It’s really extraordinary that a Head of State , an African Head of State, can be assassinated ( compare this with the international efforts to determine the circumstances of Yasser Arafat’s death) an event which is said to have triggered the mass killings of April 1994 and all efforts to uncover who did it have been stymied under pressure from Washington.
        Apparently the U.N. investigation had uncovered evidence that implicated the mainly Tutsi led RPF and their leader Paul Kagame (Kagame has been president of Rwanda since 1994! ) in the planning and implementation of the assassination.
        The U.N , also under pressure from America, has also been forced not only to close down the investigation into who killed Juvenal Habyarimana, it also denied the existence of a report by Robert Gershony that detailed evidence of atrocities against civilians carried out by the RPF.link to globalpolicy.org
        link to spiked-online.com

  3. Citizen
    April 7, 2013, 11:33 am

    One of the regular hasbara bots on MW, in the last day or so, commented that, although Israel has the bomb, this has not led to a nuke arms race in the ME. He apparently is unaware that JFK was trying to stop Israel from getting the bomb (it has 300 now) when he was murdered, and unaware that Israel bombed a nuke program site in Iraq, then in Syria. And that now the Israel uber alles crowd here and in Israel are doing their absolute best to get the US to bomb Iran, partnering with Israel no matter which state bombs first–if and when Iran has reached the mere capability to make a single nuke bomb.

  4. American
    April 7, 2013, 11:39 am

    “The third comment was by a young guy from Jerusalem: “Now I understand we’re not the only ones to have experienced a holocaust”.
    >>>

    Good,….. one down, and however many more to go and Zionism/Israel loses it’s holocaust excuse.

    Seems like the US should have to pay/answer for Hiroshima. Seems like there are a lot of ‘civilians’ around the world we ‘owe’.

    • Citizen
      April 7, 2013, 5:31 pm

      @ American
      Some historians look at what the US government considered on the way to determining to nuke Japan. You gotta remember that in those days the US had a conscripted army, and you gotta remember what the Marines suffered as they took back Pacific islands from the suicidal Imperial Japanese army, navy, and air corp. If you were an American youth or young adult back then, would you have preferred Truman’s decision, or a conventional invasion of Japan to stop its momentum?

      There is less justification for the Allied bombing of, for example Dresden, a refuge for mainly civilians but also maimed Axis infantry during war time. Read Kurt Vonnegut (sic), the American novelist. He was a German POW imprisoned in Dresden during WW2 when the Axis bombed it.

      • American
        April 8, 2013, 11:27 am

        @ Citizen

        I have considered the ‘ending the war’ rationale. But, even if ‘using the A -bomb’ as a ‘shock and awe’ war stopper on Japan was a guaranteed way to end the war I think we could have chosen to use our A-bomb shock and awe on a Japanese target that wasn’t literally millions of civilians.

      • lysias
        April 8, 2013, 12:05 pm

        There was no military reason for invading Japan and sacrificing however many American soldiers’ lives would have been lost. Japan had already been defeated by the naval blockade and the many months of strategic bombing with conventional bombs that preceded Hiroshima.

        Japan was already making frenzied efforts to surrender (only wanting to keep the emperor, as it would end up having in the end anyway). And, if for some reason you think it was right for the U.S. to insist on unconditional surrender, the fact remains that Japan was already defeated militarily, there was no military need to invade, and Japan’s economy was probably only weeks from total collapse.

      • Keith
        April 8, 2013, 7:54 pm

        CITIZEN- We have discussed this before. Japan was a defeated country trying to initiate surrender negotiations. The US demanded unconditional surrender as a way to forestall this until they used the A-bomb. They knew “unconditional surrender” would be interpreted as meaning the emperor had to go, even though, after the surrender, we let him stay, even downplaying his role in the war. According to General Dwight Eisenhower: “I thought our country should avoid shocking world opinion by use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives.” (“Saving Private Power”, Michael Zezima)

      • Hostage
        April 9, 2013, 4:48 am

        If you were an American youth or young adult back then, would you have preferred Truman’s decision, or a conventional invasion of Japan to stop its momentum?

        Correction: The planners did not envision a “conventional invasion”:

        “There were three corps to come in there [to invade Japan], as I recall. …there were to be three bombs for each corps that was landing. One or two, but probably one, as a preliminary, then this landing, then another one further inland against the immediate supports, and then the third [bomb] against any troops that might try to come through the mountains from up on the Inland Sea. That was the rough idea in our minds.”

        — Larry Bland (editor), “George C. Marshall: Interviews and Reminiscences for Forrest C. Pogue”, Johns Hopkins University Press, 1992, page 424. See also link to marshallfoundation.org

        The comments made afterward by the Joint Chiefs of Staff don’t lend any support to the idea that the bombings of the civilian population centers were considered a “military necessity” in line with the applicable rules of the Hague Convention on the laws and customs of war:

        Assistant Secretary of War John McCloy said: “I can recall as if it were yesterday, [Marshall’s] insistence to me that whether we should drop an atomic bomb on Japan was a matter for the President to decide, not the Chief of Staff since it was not a military question… the question of whether we should drop this new bomb on Japan, in his judgment, involved such imponderable considerations as to remove it from the field of a military decision.”

        Gar Alperovitz, The Decision To Use the Atomic Bomb, Random House, page 364 link to books.google.com

        Historian Alperovitz noted that Truman’s personal (White House) Chief of Staff, Admiral William Leahy said:

        Truman told me it was agreed that they would use it, after military men’s statements that it would save many, many American lives by shortening the war, only to hit military objectives.

        Of course, then they went ahead and killed as many women and children as they could which was just what they wanted all the time.

        link to books.google.com

        Leahy was also famous for saying afterwards that:

        I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.

        — William D. Leahy, “I was there: the personal story of the Chief of Staff to Presidents Roosevelt and Truman, based on his notes and diaries, made at the time, Whittlesey House, 1950, page 441

  5. yourstruly
    April 7, 2013, 11:42 am

    the exhibition explains well why there is a need to attack iran?

    why, so that iran will have the opportunity to build a memorial to the hundreds of thousands of iranians evaporated into the atmosphere and otherwise murdered by israeli nukes?

  6. Elliot
    April 7, 2013, 12:24 pm

    So, when Israelis get out a bit, some have their views reinforced and others open up. Or not. Israeli #3 may still agree with Israelis #1 and #2.
    Why is this news?
    I’m sorry but this posting is in the same category as Dana Millibank publishing his 20 year old Israeli au-pair’s utterances as if they were an oracle.
    Imagine a similar story about Americans going to a similar place and coming back with opposite responses.

    • American
      April 7, 2013, 4:47 pm

      ”Imagine a similar story about Americans going to a similar place and coming back with opposite responses.”…Elliot

      Despite Pearl Harbor..and I’ve been to the memorial there….I think the vast majority of Americas would be horrified to come face to face with the actual carnage of the atomic bomb we dropped on a civilian population.
      Is no comparsion between Japanese forces, however unprovoked, attacking a US Navel base and the US dropping the A-bomb on millions of civilians.

      • Elliot
        April 8, 2013, 11:35 am

        Perhaps. Perhaps not. Actually, the first two Israelis were also horrified about nuclear bombs – and they projected that on to Iran.
        That’s why this piece doesn’t really add anything to the discussion.
        Like Dana Milibank’s au pair.

    • seafoid
      April 9, 2013, 12:43 am

      Imagine a movie about an Israeli who leaves the Med-shtletl-bubble and gains self awareness.

  7. W.Jones
    April 7, 2013, 1:37 pm

    “Who Were the Five Million Non-Jewish Holocaust Victims?”, Jewish Virtual Library
    link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org

    • pabelmont
      April 8, 2013, 12:15 pm

      W Jones: Thanks for this important link.

    • miriam6
      April 8, 2013, 6:28 pm

      W.Jones, most human beings are aware that the second world war was the bloodiest EVER.
      Most human beings KNOW the 2WW killed 60 million people of whom 6 million were Jews.
      Personally I think it is unfortunate that the Holocaust has been so taken out of it’s context within the whole story of the 2nd World War.
      I don’t think it diminishes the scale of the crime the Nazi’s committed against the Jews to do so . In fact, placing the Holocaust within the context of the entire war I think it is the only way to understand it’s horror and how it was made possible.
      The Holocaust took place in such a unique ,almost singular context, that of a Global War, the biggest ever.
      Most of what has been recalled, remembered since 1945 about the Second World war has been about the war as a bloodied whole ,is how it affected ALL 60 million victims.
      What could be said to be ” unique” is the extent to which a modern, industrialized, Capitalist nation state like Nazi Germany used all of those attributes of a powerful modern industrialized capitalist state, including it’s bureaucracy to forcibly gather up ,from 22 countries, from pretty much ALL of Europe , (there were countries like Bulgaria and Denmark which refused to give up it’s Jewish communities to Nazism.) Jews in order transport them , to factories of death like Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec and Auschwitz where they were gassed on what amounted to an industrial conveyor belt and their remains burnt in ovens .
      It was the ultimate barbaric result of a Capitalism enterprise that was out of control.
      In history there has not been a crime quite like it .

      If you point the finger and say what about Cambodia or Rwanda or the Balkans, you ought to become aware of the extent to which Western powers especially in the case of America either intensified conflict which was already there or actively created conditions in which mass-killing could take place.
      You could say they were the result of a Capitalist Superpower which is also out of control.
      Your country- America.
      link to web.archive.org

      link to globalpolicy.org

    • Kathleen
      April 9, 2013, 7:23 am

      They are never mentioned in our main stream media…never

      • miriam6
        April 11, 2013, 10:21 am

        Kathleen and Pabelmont, W.Jones , your hostility to Jews is showing..
        .Do you realise that the Nazis sought to seek out and abduct to death camps, Jews from every country they occupied?
        Do you realise the Nazis had planned and tried to wipe out Europe’s entire ( indigenous?) Jewish population?
        I suspect if the Jews had been ” indigenous” to Europe ,brown skinned folks your sympathy would be positively unctuous..
        Other things kept out of the mainstream media:
        Who killed Rwandan President Juvenal Habyarimana?
        The American role in the overthrow of the elected government of Rwanda.
        How the Americans dropped the equivalent of FIVE Hiroshima sized bombs on Cambodia, and actually caused the deaths of more Cambodians than the Khmer Rouge?
        Plus the U.S. created the conditions by which the Khmer came to power.
        Then there is YOUR countries decades long ILLEGAL embargo of Cuba.
        An embargo held to be ILLEGAL by the U.N.?
        There is also your countries destruction of Haiti.
        These are a just a few things that REALLY don’t make the news.
        This business of the five million unmentioned “holocaust” victims is manufactured bunk, it is NOT news.
        The vast bulk of the 60 million ( including your 5 million other victims) dead take precedence when ever the WW2 is mentioned.
        You know that perfectly well.
        Your are being disingenuous and you know it.
        Besides, W Jones is poor at maths.
        He was unaware that there are 3.5 million Mizrahi Jews in Israel!
        He needed to be corrected.

      • W.Jones
        April 12, 2013, 4:05 am

        I know. I was surprised to see this figure. And I took a class on it in middleschool and read nonfiction books on the subject.

  8. Krauss
    April 7, 2013, 3:07 pm

    The last guy is the hope, but he’s also the kind of person to be attacked as a ‘self-hating Jew’ for his liberal values – the kind of values that are actually liberal and not just conventional.

    • German Lefty
      April 7, 2013, 5:53 pm

      he’s also the kind of person to be attacked as a ‘self-hating Jew’ for his liberal values

      Liberal values? What makes you think that he has liberal values? All he did was not denying that other people experienced a holocaust, too. That’s really nothing special or praiseworthy.

  9. Blank State
    April 7, 2013, 4:50 pm

    “Two of them thought the exhibition explains well why there is a need to attack Iran”

    Amazing, isn’t it? Does it just escape thier mindless pondering that thier most strident ally is the one country that has actually incinerated fellow humans in a nuclear fireball? And that thier own government has repeatedly insinuated a willingness to do the same thing to the Iranians? A nation that has actually used nukes allied with a nation that repeatedly threatens to use them does not seem like a duo that has much room to judge.

  10. Justpassingby
    April 7, 2013, 4:56 pm

    So the third one was, in principle, before visiting the museum a holocaust denier?

    Its something appaling by people urging war in a memorial book for people died in a holocaust (espeically coming from an aggressive and nuke-having state like Israel).

  11. DICKERSON3870
    April 7, 2013, 5:39 pm

    RE: “Going through the pages of the guest book at the Hiroshima Peace Museum I found three comments by Israelis who had visited the place before us this week. Two of them thought the exhibition explains well why there is a need to attack Iran… The third comment was by a young guy from Jerusalem: “Now I understand we’re not the only ones to have experienced a holocaust”. ~ Yuval Drier Shiloh

    PHIL ROCKSTROH: “[Y]ou cannot force truth upon the deceived. If a deluded soul is fortunate enough to stumble upon it, he will have found it beneath the rubble of his collapsed convictions. His most treasured, now shattered, verities will glint like shards in moonlight, as irascible circumstance has forced him to question all he insisted was true.”

    SEE – “Tyranny of the Reasonable: Popular Complacency in an Era of Economic Exploitation and Perpetual War”, by Phil Rockstroh, Common Dreams, 4/05/13

    [EXCERPTS] . . . For an individual, by far, the biggest danger in trafficking in transactional lies arises from losing awareness of the demarcation point between where the lie starts and you begin — your existence reduced to a fixed smile (and a clutch of hidden resentments) that announces the presence of a counterfeit life. By losing the recognition that you are lying, your life becomes a lie. Often, a comforting lie can be as insidious as an outright prevarication. Building a worldview based on comforting lies translates into a habitual muting of the senses — a white noise of the mind takes hold drowning out the unique music that forms the core of one’s consciousness…obliterating, the quality Kabir averred is: “The flute of interior time [that] is played whether we hear it or not. What we know as ‘love’ is its sound coming in.” . . .
    . . . The individual who finds an implicate order within — who keeps hold of the golden thread of his true nature as he wends through the baffling labyrinth of social convention and official deceit — will make an ally of fate. His true name will be emblazoned upon his heart and will ring across the devouring abyss of a conformist age.
    In bleak contrast, how can a people whose consciousness and concomitant mode of being was forged in a furnace of cultural perfidy be capable of building anything of enduring worth? The facile fades, even as the lie that gave rise to millions of deceitful heirs lives on (e.g., The citizenry of the U.S. who have shunted from consciousness and expunged from memory, the millions of slaughtered human beings (from Central America to Central Asia, from Southeast Asia to the Persian Gulf) resultant from the imperial ambitions of the nation’s ruling elites).
    We claim we know who we are. We believe the fictions we spin regarding our identity and our interactions with the world. But, to a large degree, we are composed of the very things we are unaware of about ourselves — the things that we find too uncomfortable to admit inform our actions and form the foundation of our fate.
    Propagandists, corporate and political, know this: They know how to manipulate those resistant to self-awareness, by plying them with flattering lies and pummeling them with contrived fears. These overpaid, professional liars know how to trap us in cages constructed of our cherished convictions. This is why, as a general rule, human beings prove so easy to control.
    If you find what you have been habitually avoiding, you might blunder upon who you are.
    Antithetical to the process of self-awareness: The quintessence of duplicity we know as corporate man is not interested in connection nor exploration; he craves control. He is not moved by mystery; he has an agenda. He does not know life; he possesses a facile contrivance of being.
    But the currents of time will erode his counterfeit world. He will be left with nothing, because, in the long run, he will only possess his own emptiness.
    Yet, you cannot force truth upon the deceived. If a deluded soul is fortunate enough to stumble upon it, he will have found it beneath the rubble of his collapsed convictions. His most treasured, now shattered, verities will glint like shards in moonlight, as irascible circumstance has forced him to question all he insisted was true.
    This is the means by which wars are avoided. Here is located the point of departure where a subversion of a corrupt order begins. . .

    ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to commondreams.org

    • MRW
      April 8, 2013, 11:59 am

      Thank you for quoting this, Dickerson. I am standing in line waiting for some government official to take my papers and fees reading this on my phone. It made my heart soar. Any man writing from the wisdom of Kabir or Rumi does it to me as well. Thx.

  12. MK_Ultra
    April 7, 2013, 6:48 pm

    Two of them thought the exhibition explains well why there is a need to attack Iran.

    This must fall under the “never again” category.

  13. Mike_Konrad
    April 7, 2013, 7:42 pm

    I’d expect — of much Jewish law, including the Talmudic prohibition on ingathering Jews in Zion before God led the way).

    Where does the Talmud prohibit ingathering?

    Seriously, I would like to know.

    Oddly, enough, despite what many Jews believe, the Talmud is not binding. Only the Torah.

    • pabelmont
      April 8, 2013, 12:21 pm

      Mike_Konrad:

      (BT Ketubot 111a) See: link to woolf.cam.ac.uk

      Many Ultra-Orthodox Jews, too, are highly critical of the State of Israel, although for very different reasons. It is regarded as an attempt to force God’s hand by establishing a Jewish state by human means. Without the messiah’s appearance, and because of the prominent role of secularists, such Ultra-Orthodox Jews cannot accept the modern nation-state as an authentic expression of this sacred vision. They take very seriously the famous ‘three oaths’ of the Talmud:

      What are these three oaths? One that Israel not ‘ascend the wall’ [or attempt to take the land by force]; one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured Israel not to rebel against the nations of the world; and one that the Holy One, Blessed be He, adjured the nations of the world not to oppress Israel overmuch. (BT Ketubot 111a)

      For them, the proper activities of the Jew are restricted to prayer, fulfilment of the commandments, and study of Torah. From this perspective, state-building activities are acts of rebellion. Thus Israel as
      it exists now is regarded as an illicit, doomed attempt to cut short the divinely-imposed exile of the Jewish people – despite the fact that many do engage with the Israeli government and accept grants for educational and social services

  14. Mike_Konrad
    April 7, 2013, 7:53 pm

    Blank State says:
    April 7, 2013 at 3:13 pm

    Ask the North American indian tribes about
    “holocausts”. And I guess the Crusades are just a bit of made-up history?

    The Crusaders were NOT a Holocaust. They were a European response to Muslim aggresssion which had invaded Spain, Southern Italy, Malta, Sicily, etc. The Europeans decided to hit back.

    The Crusaders committed war crimes, but no one ethnic group was in danger of a total genocide.

    The Native Americans of North America are iffy. Most of them died unintentionally due to diseases. We Americans mostly wanted to relocate them, ethnic cleansing, which is brutal, but not genocide.

    The Native Americans of South America were intentionally mass-murdered.

    Hitler did try to exterminate Gypsies.

    What happened to the Jews was NOT unique; it would be bad enough if it were unique, but others have suffered similar fates.

    BTW: Read about some of the Islamic mass murders of Buddists when they conquered India. Read Here link to fsmitha.com

    But the Crusades was not a Holocaust.

    • Ecru
      April 8, 2013, 10:42 am

      “The Crusaders were NOT a Holocaust. They were a European response to Muslim aggresssion which had invaded Spain, Southern Italy, Malta, Sicily, etc. The Europeans decided to hit back.”

      Really? So how was the Albigensian CRUSADE a response to Muslim “aggression” hmm? Or the Crusade against Prussia led by the Teutonic Knights? Let’s go further, the Crusades in the Middle East. Catholic Knights acting against Muslims aggression against the Byzantine Empire……400 YEARS AFTER ARAB ARMIES INVADED THE LEVANT! The “Reconquista” only really started getting going around the same time, again CENTURIES after the initial Muslim invasion (Charlton Heston’s “El Cid” isn’t historically accurate in case you’re unaware). And how in all that “fighting back against Muslim aggression” were so many Eastern Christians and Jews massacred? All in all, not a very convincing argument you’ve got going there.

      Native Americans DID suffer attempts at genocide, but I LOVE the way you try and claim “oh us Ameericans di’n’t do nothing bad, nosirree bob, was those goddam Mehicans and Spics they were the bad uns” which is utter and complete bollocks.

      The majority of Mesoamerican native peoples were wiped out by disease, same with North and South America often before contact with Europeans even took place. However compare South/Central and the USA Native populations today; the USA was far more denuded than the South mainly due to countless massacres both official and unofficial. Not saying South America’s Native Americans are living a life of roses, but at least they’re alive!

      Ethnic cleansing is a nice term, but when the result is mass murder as it all too often was – it’s genocide. And as General Sherman said, “We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux even to their extermination: men, women and children.” Mmm, the man must be a role model in Israel.

    • aiman
      April 8, 2013, 1:16 pm

      “BTW: Read about some of the Islamic mass murders of Buddists when they conquered India. Read Here link to fsmitha.com”

      That is no different from the Buddhist mass murder of Muslims in 1258 and razing Baghdad to the ground: link to en.wikipedia.org

      To call it “Islamic mass murders” is a bit rich when these murders, like the ones committed by Buddhists, were actually Mongol conquests in religious garb.

      The rest of your “history” on the Native Americans and the Crusades, which objectively were mutually destructive and aggressive, is just as nonsensical.

    • Cliff
      April 9, 2013, 7:08 pm

      ‘The Muslims’ (LOL) did not ‘invade’ Spain. There was no SPAIN!

      And the Christians who lived there were cruel to the Jewish population. These Christians were literally barbarian hordes that plagued the frontiers of the Western Roman Empire.

      Islamic Spain was no more ‘invaded’ than the previous occupants ‘invasion’.

      Furthermore, Islamic Spain was not always (and certainly not originally) part of the Islamic empire.

      That you can even utter the word ‘aggression’ in any context applied to that time period demonstrates what an immoral and dishonest person you are.

      • Ecru
        April 12, 2013, 9:05 am

        Whoa – go easy on t he Visigoths there!

        Yes they were a bit nutty when it came to religious freedom, but they didn’t just persecute Jews, Pagans didn’t have such a fun time either. And they were more than just “barbarian hordes” from the Roman frontier, many of their leaders had actually served in the Roman Legions and the population as a whole was so diverse (we just call them Visigoths – they were a mix in reality) it actually included people we would otherwise call “Roman.” One of the complaints of the later Western Empire was that free Romans were actually giving up on their “Roman-ness” and joining the “Barbarians” to escape heinous taxes, slavery, rapacious land owners and for just plain safety.

    • pjdude
      April 10, 2013, 3:30 am

      The Crusaders were NOT a Holocaust. They were a European response to Muslim aggresssion which had invaded Spain, Southern Italy, Malta, Sicily, etc. The Europeans decided to hit back.

      and the baltic crusades. the crusades were an agressive pomgrom designed to kill and subjugate.

  15. Sumud
    April 7, 2013, 8:01 pm

    When Palestinians start to agitate en-masse for one person/one vote across all mandate Palestine the penny is going to drop for a whole lot of Israelis that their country won’t be called Israel for much longer.

    As far back as 1973 Israel was threatening nuclear attack on Egypt and blackmailed Nixon into airlifting weapons. Seymour Hersh has written about The Samson Option and I think Israel presents a very real nuclear threat to several hundred million people across the ME and Europe. Israelis are so heavily indoctrinated the next shoah is just around the corner (see ‘Defamation’) and there are increasing number of really nutty settlers in the IDF.

    The end of Israel is inevitable at this point, I just hope no-one with a Masada complex has access to the nuclear codes when this reality hits home for all.

  16. CloakAndDagger
    April 7, 2013, 8:09 pm

    …and, lest we forget who owns and proliferates nukes,

    link to guardian.co.uk


    Secret South African documents reveal that Israel offered to sell nuclear warheads to the apartheid regime, providing the first official documentary evidence of the state’s possession of nuclear weapons.

    Birds of a feather…

    (hat tip to WhatReallyHappened.com)

  17. Dutch
    April 7, 2013, 8:28 pm

    Seeing the main exhibition in the Peace Museum completely knocked me over, and the thought of attacking someone has never been further away. Using the exhibition as an inspiration for bombing another people is ugly and sickening – and as far as I am concerned mentally and physically impossible.

  18. tokyobk
    April 7, 2013, 8:29 pm

    I suppose their could be a comparison to Hiroshima when you remember Admiral Halsey’s claim that his campaign was simply to “kill Japs, Kill Japs, kill more Japs.”
    But it was a declared total war on both sides. And, the fact that Japan was pushing for a land invasion that would have killed more is not completely US propaganda.
    I always wonder why Hiroshima is the stand in for evil killing — dramatic I suppose. To die in the fire bombs of Osaka or Tokyo would have been far far worse. Gasoline jelly on a wooden city, people jumping into boiling canals. Gruesome, and slower.
    A better comparison would be what the Japanese did in China, including Mengele like experiments.
    But you know Phil at the Okinawa peace museum I saw someone wrote out the conclusion of the poem/song Oseh Shalom, “make peace,” and had changed the ending from “alenu v’al col Yisrael” (on us and on all of Israel) to “aleinu v’al col ha olam” — On us an on the whole world.

    • lysias
      April 8, 2013, 12:28 pm

      It was a first use of a weapon that since then has threatened the obliteration of all humanity.

      It was also a first use that militarily was quite unnecessary.

  19. mjrosenberg
    April 7, 2013, 9:13 pm

    Man, I love the stuff Phil does at Mondoweiss but some of the people who post here remind there still is real old-fashioned anti-Semitism. Even ridiculing the Holocaust is not out of bounds.

    I appreciate the reminder. It is also interesting to note that the anti-Semitism never seems to emanate from Muslims or Palestinians but from old-fashioned American Jew haters.

    • Citizen
      April 8, 2013, 9:07 am

      @ mjrosenberg
      Who are you calling an anti-semite? Show us–point to the comments here you refer to that “ridicule the Holocaust.”

    • Shegetz
      April 8, 2013, 9:42 am

      It is also interesting to note that the anti-Semitism never seems to emanate from Muslims or Palestinians but from old-fashioned American Jew haters.

      Really, MJ? Not had enough coffee this morning or are you generally just a bit daft at the start of the week?

      Not only am I looking back at these comments here and not having a clue about what you’re whining about, but I’m also wondering why you’re falling back on such an old, tired and stupid knee-jerk reaction to something you’ve seen that you don’t like.

      Grow up.

      If there’s a comment here worthy to take someone to task for, do it. Quote them and engage them on it. Don’t be an idiot by throwing around accusations of antisemitism then sitting there in a self-righteous huff – without even identifying what it is that’s upset your oh-so-fine tuned sensitivities. This is why this label is losing any significance at all, because morons toss it around like it’s describing the weather.

      I thought a bit better of you. Oh well. Maybe you’ll wake up a bit and post something thought out and worthwhile. Hope springs eternal….

      • Talkback
        April 8, 2013, 10:24 am

        Shegetz says: “Don’t be an idiot by throwing around accusations of antisemitism then sitting there in a self-righteous huff – without even identifying what it is that’s upset your oh-so-fine tuned sensitivities.”

        Some need attention so much that they can’t stand the idea of not being even hated.

      • Ellen
        April 8, 2013, 11:50 am

        Shegetz, the expression “Anti Semitic” is not only worn out, but that it was even adopted (by European Zionists) is absolutely bizarre — especially when you see how the expression came into use, and the thinking of the time.

        It is a Judeophobic word, coined by a Judeophobe with the intention of casting aspersions onto a people. It is a horrible expression I refuse to use when talking about fears and hatred (gosh I do not like that word!) of the Jewish people.

    • valency
      April 8, 2013, 9:43 am

      Man, I love the stuff Phil does at Mondoweiss but some of the people who post here remind there still is real old-fashioned anti-Semitism. Even ridiculing the Holocaust is not out of bounds.

      I only see one post that meets that definition, unless others have been retromodded. Mr. Rosenberg, do you object to the argument, which I would have regarded as uncontroversial, that there is unfortunately nothing terribly unique about the suffering of the Jewish people and that the holocaust has been cynically used to deflect Israel’s own history of ethnic cleansing?

      It is also interesting to note that the anti-Semitism never seems to emanate from Muslims or Palestinians but from old-fashioned American Jew haters.

      This is why you have such a reputation for sophistry. I have immense sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people but it would be absurd to deny the deep hatred many feel and express, quite openly. It may be understandable given the way they have been treated, but it is certainly there — as is the equally intense hatred of Palestinians by Zionists.

    • Ecru
      April 8, 2013, 10:45 am

      Who’s ridiculed the Holocaust? Ridiculing the cult that’s grown around it and Zionists for constantly trying to insert its mention everywhere is not ridicule of the holocaust, it’s ridicule of the people who would use the holocaust for political capital.

    • tokyobk
      April 8, 2013, 7:47 pm

      mj you only have one use to the people who frustrate you (no not the majority of MW commenters but a few). Any thing from you other than charges of Jewish sedition and interloppery are superfluous.

  20. hophmi
    April 7, 2013, 9:31 pm

    Israelis who are in Japan around the time of Holocaust Remembrance Day? Or do we say that the Japanese shouldn’t commemorate Hiroshima because most Japanese alive today didn’t “personally experience it?”

    • Hostage
      April 9, 2013, 5:56 am

      Or do we say that the Japanese shouldn’t commemorate Hiroshima because most Japanese alive today didn’t “personally experience it?”

      Hophmi please provide a link where someone has complained about the Hiroshima Peace Museum “Industry”. How many other countries have their own extra-territorial Hiroshima museums like the Holocaust Museums in Jerusalem, Saint Petersburg, Florida, and Washington D.C.?

      Let’s face it, Japanese Prime Ministers don’t have an obsession with escorting every visiting dignitary or foreign official through the Hiroshima Museum in order to have a photo-op and to deliver the stock “never again” talking points to justify Japanese militarism.

      • MRW
        April 11, 2013, 12:06 pm

        Hostage, what a great response and observation.

    • pjdude
      April 10, 2013, 3:33 am

      actually modern japanese due still expierence it radiation lingers. its not the made up continued suffering of the jewish faith.

  21. just
    April 7, 2013, 11:09 pm

    What we did to the Japanese was horrible, and will forever remain so.

    • valency
      April 8, 2013, 10:00 am

      It was indeed horrible, but then again, the Japanese started it. What the Japanese did in Asia rivalled anything Germany did in Europe. Japan slaughtered huge numbers of civilians. It had its own death camps — in which you were worked to death, rather than gassed — its own rape camps, even its own Dr. Mengele in Shirou Ishii. In the Rape of Nanking alone, 300,000 civilians were killed and 20,000 raped. Japan has been estimated to have murdered somewhere between 3 and 10 million during its imperialistic crusade in Asia.

      Yet we never hear about the Japanese holocaust, any more than you hear about the 5 million non-Jewish victims of the German holocaust. Lets face it, the reason is it mostly involves people that Americans don’t know or care about and certainly it involves people who don’t typically make Hollywood movies. And notwithstanding the significance of this war crime, we all understand it would be completely wrong for China to invoke Japanese atrocities during World War II to justify its own completely unrelated atrocities in Tibet. Yet this is precisely what Israel propogandists do vis-a-vis the Holocaust: use it as a shield. And a central plank of this shield is the absurd Zionist argument that the Holocaust was a unique act of evil and thus, the Jewish people were uniquely justified in their actions to secure a Jewish state.

      • Ellen
        April 8, 2013, 11:43 am

        valency, there is no “but then again…” no justification when thinking about the crime of Hiroshima.

        The Japanese nation was and is not unique in crimes and “starting it….”

        Sure the Japanese Army may have rendered greater atrocities onto Manchuria, but do we rank genocides and murderous state terror?

        It is all just as horrible (no matter the extent) and all unique, as said below.

      • just
        April 8, 2013, 12:54 pm

        What we did to the Japanese was horrible, and will forever remain so.”

        Revenge is stupid and cruel.

      • seafoid
        April 9, 2013, 1:19 am

        War is insane. The second world war was probably the worst. Under the logic of capitalism spare capacity must be destroyed so that growth can happen again but did they really need to kill 50+million people to get the economy on a more solid footing?

        What very few analysts of the Nazis ever discuss is how nuts they were. It is insane to pin yellow stars on people in the first place.

        But of course they had rules. They didn’t mass murder in high value production territories like France. The killing zones were mostly in Poland where the economic model was slavery.

        How do you stop societies descending into mass insanity?

      • Keith
        April 8, 2013, 7:27 pm

        VALENCY- “…even its own Dr. Mengele in Shirou Ishii.”

        Perhaps Mondo readers would be interested to know that the US provided immunity from war crimes prosecution for this Japanese Dr. Mengele in exchange for the files on his experiments. Most folks are unaware of the extent to which Japanese and, in particular, Nazi war criminals were recruited by the US following WWII. A quote below.

        “The US wants to prevent Ishii’s knowledge of biological weapons from falling into the hands of the Soviet Union. It also wants to use that knowledge to augment its own germ warfare program.

        Seizing the opportunity, Ishii offers to reveal all the details of his experiments at Unit 731 in exchange for immunity from prosecution at war crimes trials. The US accepts the deal and Ishii is allowed to go free. According to reports, he is even allowed to travel to the US on a lecture tour.

        Immunity from prosecution is extended to all members of Ishii’s team. Some are also offered material inducements, including money, food and gifts, to encourage them to talk. Many Unit 731 veterans go on to high-profile and influential careers in Japan, taking leading roles in medical schools, pharmaceutical companies and institutions like the National Cancer Centre, the National Institute for Health and the Japanese Medical Association. One becomes Governor of Tokyo; another president of the Japan Medical Association; a third becomes head of Green Cross, Japan’s largest blood products company; another head of the Japan Olympic Committee.

        The immunity deal is kept secret from the public for decades. No public investigation is made into Unit 731 and the experiments conducted there. The story of Unit 731 and Japan’s biological weapons program is obscured from history. The truth does not begin to emerge until the 1980s.”
        link to moreorless.au.com

  22. Taxi
    April 8, 2013, 1:08 am

    Will zionists be visiting the Ethnic Cleansing Museum in Ramalla? The open air Museum of Jewish Intollerance in Gaza?

    Wake me up when they do cuz the article above sure sucks! Who cares what 3 random israelis think about Hiroshima?! Honestly, Phil, you gotta get out of the ‘jewish bubble’ more often.

  23. mjrosenberg
    April 8, 2013, 10:50 am

    It is one thing to say the Holocaust is exploited for political reasons.

    Those who feel the need to say that there is “nothing terribly unique” about the Holocaust are, in my opinion, driven by anti-Semitism. “Not terribly unique.” What an ugly, cavalier way of speaking about mass murder.

    I can’t imagine saying there is “nothing terribly unique” about American slavery or Hiroshima or even Dresden. That kind of language is dismissive of peoples’ suffering.

    Sorry. The language on this site is offensive.

    I could, if I wanted to, find hundreds if not thousands of anti-Semitic statements here. My beloved friend, Phil, should either shut down all comments or preferably screen them for anti-Semitism, Islamohatred and other forms of bigotry.

    Anti-semites who use the Palestinian cause to hide behind hurt the Palestinian cause. The cause of Palestine is not anti-Semitic. Why let it be tainted by people who found the cause because they just don’t like Jews.

    • Ellen
      April 8, 2013, 11:38 am

      Mr. Rosenberg, with all respect, isn’t every single act of violence or suffering of a people “terribly unique?” Each horrific beyond words, each unique.

      While I also cringe when I read such a statement ” nothing terribly unique about the suffering of the Jewish people ….” and find it callous and dismissive of ALL suffering of ALL peoples, it is not worthy of undue thought or attention; and interpretation or projection.

      There will always be Judeophobes, Islamaphobes, and other racist phobias everywhere. Concentrating on it, gives it validity and attention and helps keeps it alive.

    • American
      April 8, 2013, 11:59 am

      @ mj

      The reason people so often point out the Jewish holocaust isn’t unique isn’t to ‘minimize it’, but because of people insisting it is unique and more
      important than all others—-which ‘minimizes’ all the other holocaust and people’s suffering.
      It’s the kind of hubris and narcissism that offends people regardless of what’s it’s about.
      You’re like the person who goes to the funeral of friend’s spouse and instead of offering your condolences to the bereaved your self centeredness compels you to take center stage and launch into a loud wail about how ‘you’ suffered a lose more unique and worse than any other bereaved on the planet.

    • lysias
      April 8, 2013, 12:36 pm

      I’m an Irish-American, and I can imagine saying there was nothing terribly unique about the Potato Famine. I would certainly not be terribly offended if I heard somebody else say it.

      It would only be a part of the truth, because every historical event is unique in some ways. But it would just be a more forceful way of saying that the famine was just one more example of the sort of thing imperialism and colonialism can do. British rule in Bengal opened with one terrible famine at the end of the 18th century and closed with another just a couple of years before the end of British rule in India. Both of them killed millions.

    • tree
      April 8, 2013, 12:45 pm

      Apparently you think that questioning the “uniqueness” of the Holocaust means that you “hate Jews”. Does questioning the uniqueness of Hiroshima or Dresden or American slavery likewise mean one “hates” the Japanese or the Germans or American blacks? None of those events were “terribly unique”, not because they weren’t horrendous but because horrendous acts are sadly far too common throughout human history. I guess you think I must hate nearly everyone, since most ethnicities can point to cruel and senseless murder by others as a part of their past. Really, you think that someone is a “Jew hater” unless he or she thinks that the Holocaust is unique among all genocides? Jews must be accepted as special victims or else one is guilty of “Jew hatred”? Jews can’t be consider victims in this instance like every other victim of atrocity? You must think Jews are special, at least in their victimhood, or you are a “hater”? This is incerdibly sloppy thinking on your part, MJ.

      And you seem too ready to dismiss how this claim of “uniqueness” has been used to justify terrible acts on the part of Israel. The whole idea of “uniqueness would be a a dry academic question if the Holocaust wasn’t continually used by Israel and its apologists to excuse their cruelty and denial of human rights to the Palestinians, as well as excuse their hatred of gentiles, and Arab gentiles in particular. The Holocaust was NOT unique in the general sense (nor were any other of the numerous historical atrocities through the ages) and it in no way justifies the mistreatment of others. Call me an “anti-semite” if you will but it only diminishes you to carelessly throw around such an epithet.

      People who carelessly and recklessly throw around the “anti-semite” slur do far more damage to the Palestinian cause that the “Jew hating” windmills you are tilting at. Think about it.

    • gamal
      April 8, 2013, 1:03 pm

      i have a lot of respect for you Mr. Rosenberg, but are not the primary dishonourers of the Holocaust Zionists and western imperialists who have traded on those horrors to facilitate current horrors

      and those now living take precedence, no doubt i am also guilty of what you say, and you are right the comments policy is a bit confused, but in an atmosphere where all sorts of bizarre ideas are attached to the Holocaust,

      it is inevitable, i remember being stunned by Israeli Holocaust jokes, told to me by highly educated young Israeli’s i met on the religious and social circuits i used to frequent, it is not “evil” only which is banal, so is great suffering and extensive slaughter, none the less you are right.

      you owe me nothing for the suffering and violence i have endured, including an unfortunate incident directed at my little dark Sri Lankan partner, this weekend, and the violence that was directed at us, i am a thug and learned to be so in the excessively violent and racist environment i grew up in, “Half-castes are the worst” i was informed by our assailants a couple of nights ago, its true and we embrace that, years of violent assaults and training have made me a touch formidable but it was not nice and i will see what the consequences are going to be, possibly quite serious, but you owe me nothing as a result.

      I have so often seen memory of the Holocaust used as screen by the former Allied powers to cover their own appalling crimes, you need to universalise your understanding of it, and forge solidarities with the likes of us, used to hearing our own humanity derided, but still you are right,

      even in your current privilege, i am not sorry for my attitudes but nor do i think that they represent some truth, which others need to acknowledge, its a contingent world and anyone who sees and feels the Holocaust for all its grim menace must commemorate it by giving a special dispensation to those now slated for slaughter, confinement, immisseration and torture, in the name of never again,

      what other way is there to commemorate it, your beloved friend was quite happy to support the slaughter in Libya, for whatever reason, and to state it, and now happily ignores the bloody consequences or the ongoing misery, which is a demonstrable piece of inhumanity, and does nothing but reinforce precisely the same ideas that underlay the Holocaust to be frank, you may be right MJR but still you need to get down from your high seat and learn to talk to the likes of us.

      Lets be clear you have been very dishonest in writing “I can’t imagine saying there is “nothing terribly unique” about American slavery or Hiroshima or even Dresden. That kind of language is dismissive of peoples’ suffering.”
      you are not looking for any commonality but still want your long past suffering privileged, you me nothing but neither do I owe you obedience in the matter of my attitude to the Holocaust.

      if you can excuse the inhumanity of your beloved friend you better learn to talk to people who dont think you are that special either, i have had to fight for the status ordinary man and am happy with that, there is no better thing to be. look at the world, suffering and grief are the great solidarity, we all have it. No one owes me and mine shit as a result of past pain or current travails, nor we you and you arent just talking to “American Jew Haters”.

    • hophmi
      April 8, 2013, 1:52 pm

      Thank you, MJ. It is good to see another person calling out the blind hatred in the comment sections of this site. I go back and forth on whether Phil should shut these losers down. On the one hand, they give us an idea on just how badly the anti-Zionist movement is infected with antisemitism. On the other hand, they contribute nothing to the discussion, which is usually cumulative and boring because people just stridently repeat one another over and over again. And of course, it does zero to help the Palestinians. Quite the reverse, actually.

      • Blank State
        April 8, 2013, 7:14 pm

        Ah, Hophmi. To see YOU so align yourself with Rosenberg on this thread should tell Rosenberg something. But it won’t.

      • marc b.
        April 9, 2013, 9:17 am

        ugh, yes, that’s unfortunate. but you can’t blame rosenberg for that sh*t stirrer, the world’s leading authority on others’ racism.

        hophmi says:
        March 20, 2013 at 9:38 am
        I could care less that Christian killed Christians in endless intraChristian wars.

        i go back and forth on whether weiss should shut down these racist losers. on the one hand, they give us an idea of how truly repulsive the supremacists are. on the other hand, we already knew that.

      • Cliff
        April 11, 2013, 11:14 am

        Wow, I didn’t know he said that.

        Something to remember when hoppy diverts attention to some other conflict or whitewashes Israeli apartheid.

      • Taxi
        April 8, 2013, 11:58 pm

        hops,
        You’re an expert on what DOES NOT help the Palestinians, indeed an expert on giving “zero to help the Palestinians”, so spare us your fantastic plastic sympathies.

        Both you and MJ are stuck in the pathology of eternal “unique” victimhood. I feel sorry for your jitters. Suffering is relative. What’s so difficult for you guys to understand about this? People have varying levels of passion towards the jewish holocaust not because they’re necessarily antisemitic, but because that’s just the way it is, always was and always will be. Can two billion men all love a single “unique” woman with the same fervor? Your expectations are unrealistic in our imperfect world.

        True story: as a youth I did much volunteer work at hospital psych wards, mainly reading short stories and poems to snoozing or catatonic patients on Sunday afternoons. At one of these wards, I knew a schizophrenic who told me his psychiatrist had asked him why he was insisting on being “fatally unique”. He thought it was a hateful question, a denial of his “individuality”, part and parcel of an evil mass conspiracy against him designed to snuff him out. Needless to say, he rejected even the suggestion of the question, with outraged and bitter vehemence. When I pointed out to him that everything was worthwhile questioning every now and then, including one’s “individuality”, he looked at me like I’d stabbed him in the heart and accused me of being part of , nay the wicked leader of the mass conspiracy against him. He ran around the room shaking with fear and screaming at everyone to get out of the building because “the brain eater’s in the house!”. He was swiftly and noisily restrained. It was sad and upsetting and hopeless.

        Extreme attachment will do this to you – put a big ozone hole in your perception of reality.

      • Cliff
        April 9, 2013, 4:36 am

        What you want most hoppy is for no one to discuss this issue except Zionists.

        You’re the racist and bigot – not us.

        MJ, you’ve got a guy agreeing with you who has said that the Irgun was fighting imperialism by using terrorism. And that the Palestinians were Hitler supporters. And that hypothetical Palestinian violence is more important than actual Israeli violence with its vastly higher civilian casualty rate.

        This character who is agreeing with you has said that our fixation (his characterization; because we were just discussing a topic that arose organically in the comments section) on the history of the Mandate and Jewish terrorism is not ‘helpful’ to the Palestinian cause.

        ‘Irun, Irgun, Irgun,’ is hoppy’s impression of our comments regarding Jewsh terrorism. Noting this alleged fixation, he says that we are not being honest about them and that for us to bash them and their modus operandi – we are supporting British imperialism.

        He goes on to falsely claim that Hamas terrorism claimed more lives or something. That was later disproven by another commentator – which then prompted hoppy to change the goal posts from Hamas to all Palestinian terrorists.

        Even then it was nearly equal. LOL

        Anyways, hophmi is almost always WRONG on the factual history of the conflict.

        The conclusions he draws are racist and representative of the Jewish settlers religious fanaticism.

        You will find that all Zionist commentators past and present will want to shut down MW. Without the comment section you won’t have a MW.

        People want to see the Zionist reaction to these articles.

        @hoppy

        You’re must have missed the lip service MJ paid to Islamophobia in his comment.

        While he is only concerned about Jewish maligning, it’s pathetic still that you totally glossed over that part.

        And to everyone else, remember this moment if Phil ever gives in to the Jewish ethnocentric nationalists and racists like Hophmi.

      • Cliff
        April 9, 2013, 4:40 am

        I think hoppy is in love with you now, MJ.

        Quite a different tune he was singing not so long ago!

        First of all, this group of liberal Zionists is too large. Rosenberg is not in the same category as Beinart, Fein, Grossman, Oz, Hazan, or Derfner, all of whom have unimpeachable Zionist credentials and have offered criticism that has generally been devoid of the nasty name-calling Rosenberg engages in. To my knowledge, none of this group has sought common cause with hardcore anti-Zionists as Rosenberg has by associating himself with people like Phil Weiss. That’s not to say Rosenberg isn’t a Zionist. But he doesn’t belong in that class. Beinart’s ideas have actually gained plenty of traction in the organized Jewish community. Rosenberg’s have not, because they drip with hostility.

        It’s always a conspiracy. And it’s always unintentionally hilarious. MJ Rosenberg (not to mention Phil (mentioned in the NY Mag piece that was a “hit job” on Peter Beinart, Glenn Greenwald, and Andrew Sullivan) all blog about “the Lobby”. Greenwald works for Slate and Sullivan works for the Daily Beast; both are mainstream sources. Let’s cut the victim-bullshit about how no one talks about what MJ Rosenberg wants them to.

      • hophmi
        April 9, 2013, 11:40 am

        “What you want most hoppy is for no one to discuss this issue except Zionists.

        You’re the racist and bigot – not us.”

        Spoken like the guy who never leaves the safe room. MJ actually lives in the real world. In the real world, Cliff, your views are offensive.

        “MJ, you’ve got a guy agreeing with you who has said that the Irgun was fighting imperialism by using terrorism. And that the Palestinians were Hitler supporters. And that hypothetical Palestinian violence is more important than actual Israeli violence with its vastly higher civilian casualty rate.”

        I agree with MJ on many things, though I’m critical of his use of terms like “Israel-firster,” which I think is unhelpful. But both of us are liberal Zionists who favor a two-state solution. We know there’s nothing you hate more than people with nuanced opinions, Cliff. We also know that your tired line claiming I said that the Palestinians were “Hitler supporters” is the same lie today as it was yesterday, and that on a site where 95% of the regular commentators agree with most of what you say, you are so insecure, that you feel the need to trot out lies like this nearly every day.

        “This character who is agreeing with you has said that our fixation (his characterization; because we were just discussing a topic that arose organically in the comments section) on the history of the Mandate and Jewish terrorism is not ‘helpful’ to the Palestinian cause.”

        Yes, I definitely believe that talking about a Jewish guerrilla group that ended in the 1940s, condemning everything they did as if you were Ernest Bevin, and asserting that they were crypto-Nazis (while condemning any reference to the Mufti’s relationship with Hitler) is not especially helpful to the Palestinian cause. People are generally sympathetic to the facts on the ground. They don’t especially enjoy hearing the entire conflict relitigated. That’s true whether you’re pro-Palestinian or pro-Israel. Angry, rabid, hating people like you do not tend to help the downtrodden. They hurt them by identifying their cause with angry rabid hating people.

        “You will find that all Zionist commentators past and present will want to shut down MW. Without the comment section you won’t have a MW.”

        Spoken like a self-interested commentators whose views are so extreme that he’s frequently censored even here.

        For the record, I’ve argued many times that the comment section, and its population of angry, sometime antisemitic people, greatly damages MW, an argument that Phil is quite receptive to.

        “You’re must have missed the lip service MJ paid to Islamophobia in his comment.”

        I didn’t miss it at all. As a long-time campaigner against Islamophobia in my own community, I strongly support it. See, I don’t especially see the point of hanging out in places where everyone blows smoke up my ass so I never have to examine my assumptions nor they theirs.

        You do seem to be under the misimpression, however, that MJ was complaining about Islamophobia here. He wasn’t.

        What have you done to convince your fellow pro-Palestinian campaigners that antisemitism is wrong, Cliff?

        “I think hoppy is in love with you now, MJ.”

        I’m not “in love” with MJ. Boy, are you childish.

        And yes, I still have a major problem with MJ’s use of terms like Israel-firster, which I find to mimic old antisemitic tropes about dual loyalty. MJ could criticize the ECI neo-con types like Bill Kristol on the merits, rather than relying on terminology like this. I have long criticized Kristol and the Emergency Committee on Israel for their politics, but I observe the basic rule of not questioning that they sincerely believe the policies they favor are in the best interests of the United States. Indeed, the term Israel-firster has hardly caught on in the mainstream, while Beinart’s views are now commonly heard in the discourse. In truth, MJ doesn’t really question it either; he just expresses his disagreement differently than I do.

        For the record, the quote you took out of context this time was a response to a post quoting Jerry Haber’s piece supporting MJ’s use of the term and placing MJ in a category of “real liberal Zionists” along with Beinart, Grossman, Oz, and others that were distinguishable from “faux-liberal Zionists” like Abe Foxman, Alan Dershowitz and others. I distinguished MJ from this group because Beinart, Grossman, and others are generally not known to engage in name-calling and generally do not associate themselves with hardcore anti-Zionist sites like this one.

        Indeed, people like you, Cliff, are the reason why. MJ may use the term “Israel-firster” as a rhetorical flourish to denigrate his political opponents, as is common in American political discourse. Unfortunately, because there are people like you out there, it is misinterpreted and used to constitute an attack on any Jew who believes Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. So I criticize MJ for that; it’s irresponsible and unhelpful.

        Your bringing up my past criticism of MJ only makes you look unsophisticated, childish, and dumb Cliff. Maybe this is a good time for you to learn that most people think in more complex terms than “hate” and “love.” We can like some things, and dislike others.

      • Cliff
        April 12, 2013, 12:00 am

        Hoppy said:

        Spoken like the guy who never leaves the safe room. MJ actually lives in the real world. In the real world, Cliff, your views are offensive.

        There is no safe room. Anti/Post/Non-Zionists do not comment on pro-Israel blogs in any comparable way to MW and our Zionist commentators.

        MW is in the real world. It’s not mainstream. But that isn’t specifically due to the polarizing politics of this conflict. There is overlap between Jewish nationalism and what is perceived to be America’s best interests (power is America’s best interest but we have it already and through exerting such power we, and by we its mostly Jewish nationalists and their employees, can ‘say’ that Israel is in our best interests).

        No one here cares about your implication that to be in this ‘real world’ we must be pro-Israel or adopt your views.

        Time and time again, commentators (like me) have said that they are moved by the moral dilemmas and not tribal loyalty (like you).

        Your ‘real world’ line is desperate and tacky.

        You have been quoted accurately by all the regular commentators here regarding your slipper-slope slander of Palestinians and Palestinian agency as Nazis and Hitler supporting.

        I’m not insecure anymore than those commentators discussing Irgun with you were ‘obsessed’ with discussing Irgun.

        These discussions occur organically. You hitched your jackass (as another poster put it) to MJ’s absurd denunciation and call for censorship because you want every single venue for the discussion on this conflict to be within parameters that are safe for Zionism.

        Yet, you put him on the fringe and characterized his comments as being vitriolic or dripping with hostility – lol. Now of course you’re revising your statements since you can’t go back and actually change them.

        Antisemitism is not an element on the periodic table.

        It’s an entirely made up concept to describe patterns of behavior within a particular historical period.

        Taking an antisemitic trope and applying it to 21st century politics is by definition false.

        The best example would be the use of Israel Firster, since you brought it up.

        Dual loyalty is not even a slander. It’s a legitimate accusation to make when considering the nature of American political culture.

        The opposite of the notion of dual loyalty within the context of this conflict is that all pro-Israel ideologues and the notion that Zionism is in our interest as Americans – is irrefutable.

        Neither is true, but the notion of possible dual loyalty is by definition true. While an American Jew can be pro-Israel but believe in a relationship that is not one-sided where America and Israel work together to prevent a Palestinian State and deprive Palestinian of any meaningful political agency.

        That is possible.

        But an Israel Firster […] is someone who is a true believer in the cultist sense.

        Believing that our two country’s – one with 300 million people, older history, much more complex problems domestic and foreign has enough in common with a country of 10 million that is 60 years old, that we should assume its in our ‘best interest’ – is a lie.

        But you believe that lie and pass it off as gospel.

        […]

        Your comments stating that Palestinian political agency is an outgrowth of ‘Arab political agency’ and the latter is genocidal while the former is symbolized by you by figures like the Mufti – leading you, once again, to state quote:

        “Palestinian support for Hitler.”

        […]. The truth is in your quoted statements – which are not abstract. They aren’t Picassos.

        @Irgun

        The Irgun was a terrorist group. They are discussed because people like you mystify Palestinian terrorism as being motivated by ancient Jew hatred and that Jew hatred is a mythological and unquantifiable phenomena. Something that cannot be understood but that which should evoke hysterical condemnation.a

        No, the Irgun was a terrorist organization. And they were absorbed – along with other Jewish terrorists – into the Israeli mainstream.

        And Palestinian violence has been a blip.

        But you’ve said yourself that hypothetical Palestinian violence is more dangerous than actual Israeli violence. Imaginary deaths worse than the dead children Israel has killed – the same amount for all Israeli civilians killed.

      • Cliff
        April 12, 2013, 12:32 am

        Hoppy,

        I’m no more insecure than those commentators talking about the Irgun were ‘obsessed’ with the talking about the Irgun – according to you once again.

        The Irgun was a terrorist group. It was absorbed into the Israeli mainstream.

        The Israeli mainstream was doing the bulk of the ethnic cleansing anyway. And the Israeli mainstream was also massacring and raping.

        Throughout all of this, you said that to focus on the Irgun as we have, is to support British imperialism.

        Meanwhile, you never miss and opportunity to whitewash Israeli crimes by raising the spectre of Palestinian suicide bombing and reaffirming, in your view, the Israeli victimhood-security-complex.

        So to you, discussing Jewish terrorism is a waste of time that no one ‘outside of Mondoweiss’ talks about. More ‘real world’ reality for us anti-Israel fringe!

        This real world you live in, hoppy, is very Zio-centric. It must suck to be a Palestinian in this real world of yours.

        And once again, I am not upset about discussions about the Mufti – in and of themselves.

        You first said, “Palestinian support for Hitler.” Exact quote.

        Then when pressed, you brought up the Mufti.

        But Hostage established that the Mufti was not voted for. He was appointed by a British Jew. The Mufti had no popular support.

        But you still had the temerity to use him to slander the Palestinian people and/or Palestinian agency.

        I connect those statements of yours with others you’ve made. Like when you said Arab politics were genocidal, and that Palestinian agency is an “outgrowth” of Arab politics. You even brought up the Mufti there again.

        So it’s not a logical stretch to assume and to state that you equate Palestinians with Hitler and the Nazis and Nazism.

        End of story (once again).

        But I so enjoy your interpretative dance routine of b.s. regarding this quote of yours that many other commentators use against you. It’s not me only and while you think we are all in the same boat – much more polite posters have brought up this quote of yours.
        […]

      • Sumud
        April 12, 2013, 11:26 am

        We know there’s nothing you hate more than people with nuanced opinions, Cliff. We also know that your tired line claiming I said that the Palestinians were “Hitler supporters” is the same lie today as it was yesterday, and that on a site where 95% of the regular commentators agree with most of what you say, you are so insecure, that you feel the need to trot out lies like this nearly every day.

        Except, hophmi, you did say that Palestinians supported Hitler [my emphasis]:

        “you can’t separate the reality from the fantasy. zionism has consequences and you can’t have the ideal divorced from the consequences. that would be incomprehensible to a rational mind.”

        So does the Holocaust, Arab anti-semitism, Palestinian support for Hitler, the work of the Yishuv to build a democratic state, the use of suicide bombing by Palestinians, the hijacking of airplanes, 9/11, and US foreign policy. These all have consequences as well.

        You also have also inflated the importance of the Mufti to Palestinians, quite probably to defame them [my emphasis]:

        What’s your point, Phil? Forget it; I know already. It’s to engage in yet another anachronistic distortion to make American Jews and Israelis look bad. You complain when people point out that a major Palestinian leader, still beloved today, supported Hitler in the 1940s, and then you post crap like this.

        The mufti was not a “major Palestinian leader”, he was a bit player and in 1947/8, of one million Palestinians only about 3,000 joined his militant group to participate in the zionist/Palestinian conflict. So 0.3% of the population – not major at all. That figure came from Simha Flapan, FYI.

      • hophmi
        April 12, 2013, 2:15 pm

        “Throughout all of this, you said that to focus on the Irgun as we have, is to support British imperialism.”

        I think it’s a fair point. You’d have praised the Irgun back then and written that the Haganah were stooges.

        “So to you, discussing Jewish terrorism is a waste of time that no one ‘outside of Mondoweiss’ talks about. ”

        Yes, I think it’s also a fair point that no one really discusses the Irgun in the real world. They accept the Israel is there to stay and that most country have had bloody beginnings.

        “And once again, I am not upset about discussions about the Mufti – in and of themselves.”

        Sure you are. Look how upset you get.

        “You first said, “Palestinian support for Hitler.” Exact quote.”

        Which you take out of context and in the face of dozens of time where I have explained the context, which was to explain how Palestinians were perceived by those who were making up their minds about partition. That’s called bad faith.

        “But Hostage established that the Mufti was not voted for.”

        No one suggested he was voted for. He had plenty of influence, though.

        “Like when you said Arab politics were genocidal”

        “So it’s not a logical stretch to assume and to state that you equate Palestinians with Hitler and the Nazis and Nazism.”

        Yes, when you string several lies together and repeat them, you can say anything.

        Whatever you want, Cliff. Truly, I don’t care anymore, and it’s clear that despite my requesting that your repeated lie not be sent through, again and again, the moderators here don’t heed it. I have more important things to do. They want to play these games with the one guy here who doesn’t shine sun up their asses, it’s up to them.

      • hophmi
        April 12, 2013, 2:24 pm

        “No one here cares about your implication that to be in this ‘real world’ we must be pro-Israel or adopt your views.”

        Oh, no one in saying that the real world is pro-Israel. But vitriol like your and extremist opinions like yours have little currency.

        “Time and time again, commentators (like me) have said that they are moved by the moral dilemmas and not tribal loyalty (like you).”

        You never lacked for sanctimony.

        “You have been quoted accurately by all the regular commentators here regarding your slipper-slope slander of Palestinians and Palestinian agency as Nazis and Hitler supporting.”

        Now everybody quotes me? How flattering. It’s really just you, though, I’m afraid, who insists on repeated the lie again and again.

        “These discussions occur organically. You hitched your jackass (as another poster put it) to MJ’s absurd denunciation and call for censorship because you want every single venue for the discussion on this conflict to be within parameters that are safe for Zionism.”

        Actually, I just hate bigots, that’s all.

        “Dual loyalty is not even a slander. ”

        Sure it’s a slander. But things are so out of whack in politics, that we can make the accusation and it doesn’t even mean all that much. Both left and right do it. It’s the culture we live in. People substitute slander for arguments.

        “Believing that our two country’s – one with 300 million people, older history, much more complex problems domestic and foreign has enough in common with a country of 10 million that is 60 years old, that we should assume its in our ‘best interest’ – is a lie.”

        You’re free to disagree with me.

        “And Palestinian violence has been a blip.”

        Cliff says the deaths of Israeli children are a blip. Thanks, Cliff. From now on, I’ll remember to remind you that you called child murder a “blip.” I’m sure you’re OK with that.

        “But you’ve said yourself that hypothetical Palestinian violence is more dangerous than actual Israeli violence.”

        Well, I guess we’ll have to wait for the hypothetical violence to happen. You know, Cliff, the United States didn’t attack Afghanistan to stop 9/11 from happening. It attacked to stop 9/11 from happening again. Hypothetical violence. What a bitch.

    • Cliff
      April 8, 2013, 2:24 pm

      MJ Rosenberg

      The onus is on you to provide examples.

      We have been commenting on MW for YEARS. If Phil ever decides to give in to the lies and hysterics of Zionists and Liberal Zionists alike, then this site will die.

      The comments section is where we got people like Hostage. Or MRW. Or Avi and Danaa and Schmuel. Israelis who grew up with the hive-mind Zionist upbringing.

      This is a conversation.

      A State calls itself the Jewish State. The Jewish State’s soldiers carve the Star of David into Gazan farmland after carrying out a massacre of 1400 people.

      There are endless examples of Zionist Jews putting Judaism and Jewish identity front and center as the shield and coat of arms of Zionism.

      Zionists wear Judaism as they carry out the Zionist project.

      But through all of that hypocrisy – we have not resort to the cartoonish style (and non-sensical, hyperbolic) antisemitism that Abe Defamation screeches about.

      If you can find literally HUNDREDS of such comments, then do it.

      It’s important enough for ALL OF US here who love this blog and Phil and Adam and Annie and Alex and Alison and everyone, that we do not want YOU to censor us.

      So for God’s sake, stop BEGGING THE QUESTION and provide some proof.

      We’ve been asking you for ages. So finally back it up!

      • mjrosenberg
        April 8, 2013, 7:10 pm

        Your response drips with vitriol. So I’d say it is some good evidence right there.

        1.5 million Jewish children were killed by gas in the middle of the 20th century purely and only and solely because of their ethnicity. It was not a fight over land, not a war, not “collateral” damage but genocide. Unique.

        Fortunately, it does not, as some here seem to think, happen all the time. I stand by my assertion that anti-Semitism is a problem here although it appears that some think that it does not exist, that Jews invented the concept for political reasons.

        I get this mode of thinking. I tend to call out the right (the Limbaugh, Breitbart acolytes) for racism all the time. And they also go ballistic. How dare you? As if there is no racism, just the charge of racism used by leftists to stifle debate.

        But, no, there are racists. And there are anti-Semites. And I don’t care who is offended by me calling you out.

        Own your anti-Semitism.

      • marc b.
        April 9, 2013, 9:08 am

        there are racists. And there are anti-Semites.

        yes, there are. and yet again you make a melodramatic generalization, using, i might add, anti-Semitic imagery (‘dripping with vitriol'; what, no mention of fangs?), without a single specific reference to an anti-Semitic comment, never mind providing an explanation of how such comment constitutes anti-Semitism.

        every historical event is unique. that’s not what your describing, the holocaust, or in this case, the murder of jewish children during the war, as a unique event. the separation of the murder of jews from other nationalities or ethnicities is historically misleading, and the only purpose it serves, that you serve, by continuing to insist that the holocaust be separated from its context is to elevate it as a superlative, a ‘unique event’ more significant than the murder of millions of Russians, poles, ukranians, etc. it’s not only historically misleading, it’s frankly offensive for anyone who had relatives killed in the war.

      • Bumblebye
        April 9, 2013, 9:46 am

        There is no ‘vitriol’ in Cliff’s reply.
        Because of the tight control exercised over the holocaust discourse, how many of us can put numbers to the disabled children murdered by the nazis? Can we put numbers – or even names – to the Gypsy children murdered? Their memorials, if they exist, are virtually unknown to us, yet they were just as loathed, just as vilified – and just as murdered – by the nazis.

      • lysias
        April 9, 2013, 10:12 am

        1.5 million Jewish children were killed by gas in the middle of the 20th century purely and only and solely because of their ethnicity. It was not a fight over land, not a war, not “collateral” damage but genocide. Unique.

        I thought of objecting that probably about the same number of Ukrainian children died of deliberately inflicted starvation during the Holodomor. But then it occurred to me that you would say that the Holodomor was committed because of a desire to control land.

        But isn’t it just as reasonable to say that that was what was behind the Holocaust? Hitler’s attack on the East was motivated above all by the desire to annex Lebensraum. In the view of Hitler and other Nazis, their fight against the Soviet Union was a fight against Judeobolshevism, so in murdering the Jews they thought they were eliminating their enemies, so that they could annex the land they thought they needed.

        Not very reasonable, I admit. But then, how reasonable was Stalin’s murderous onslaught on the Ukrainians?

      • Cliff
        April 9, 2013, 1:13 pm

        You are saying my vitriol is antisemitic? Vitriol is not antisemitic and there isn’t any vitriol in my comment anyway.

        Maybe you think the caps lock key is antisemitic.

        Or that pointing out that IDF soldiers carving a Star Of David into Gazan farmland is antisemitic.

        ANYWAYS –

        I didn’t even bring up the Holocaust.

        I didn’t say antisemitism was invented by Jews.

        I didn’t talk about antisemitism, historically, and dismiss it altogether.

        You are being a cry-baby because you have nothing to substantiate your lofty proposal.

        What are you examples, because you still haven’t given any.

        That would entail quoting someone who said something you think is antisemitic and then explaining why.

      • tree
        April 9, 2013, 2:00 pm

        Your response drips with vitriol. So I’d say it is some good evidence right there.

        Faulty reasoning again. MJ. Just because someone reacts angrily to YOU, doesn’t mean that person is a “Jew hater” which is essentially what you called Cliff. Or do YOU think that you somehow stand for all Jews and if someone is angry with YOU it must mean that they are upset by all Jews? If so, then I think you need to look in the mirror at your own anti-semitism.

      • Dutch
        April 10, 2013, 5:14 pm

        @ MJRosenberg

        I have to ask you again to help us out: where is the vitriol and where is the anti-Semitism in Cliff’s post?

        “I stand by my assertion that anti-Semitism is a problem here although it appears that some think that it does not exist, that Jews invented the concept for political reasons.” — MJR.

        So, some here claim that ‘Jews invented the concept for political reasons’. Well, I have read a lot of comments on this blog, but I have never come across this claim. It’s so seventies, don’t you think?

      • Sumud
        April 12, 2013, 12:47 pm

        Your response drips with vitriol. So I’d say it is some good evidence right there.

        Sorry MJ but I think you are wrong here. Vitriol is not anti-semitic, and nothing in Cliff’s comment, vitriolic or not, is anti-semitic, that I can see. Don’t confuse anger and indignation with something else.

        Perhaps you are uncomfortable with someone (non-jewish?) bringing up the fact that zionists use judaism and the holocaust all the time to justify the most horrific of things? I’m not sure. It doesn’t mean anti-semitism isn’t real, but surely you can see and acknowledge that judaism and jewish history has been hijacked and is ruthlessly being exploited by zionists – externally to silence criticism of Israel, and internally to terrorise Israel’s jewish citizens into thinking the New Shoah is imminent (see ‘Defamation’).

        I don’t see why it is so important to you that the shoah is viewed as a unique occurrence. It’s such an odd qualifier. Over 100 million people died in conflict in the 20th century. The holocaust and it’s victims are one tragic occurrence among many. 500,000 Iraqi children died in the 1990s because of US led UN sanctions, solely because of their nationality, and Madeline Albright licked her lips on international television and said “we think it’s worth it”. You can make a case this was unique, but why bother!? A tragedy is a tragedy is a tragedy. I refuse to elevate any victim to a higher or lower status than any other, for any reason. The reason why, or the mechanism used to extinguish the life is irrelevant – a human life is ended prematurely and it is a tragedy each and every time.

        As for Mondoweiss, well… I’m Australian and I can tell you it’s pretty shocking to see how badly discussion of Israel/Palestine is stifled in the US. Israel isn’t getting such high approval ratings in Gallup polls for no reason, and in the rest of the world where we have more reality-based coverage, Israel’s popularity continues to plummet.

        I think when more Americans become aware of the situation in Palestine, and realise how much they’ve been taken for a ride by zionists, there is a very real risk of an anti-semitic backlash developing. The pendulum is swung in Israel’s favour now, and it will swing the other way soon enough. If it occurs gradually it will be OK, but if there is a black swan event such as large US casualties in Iran if Israel attacks and manages to entangle the US, or mass killing of Palestinians by rogue IDF settlers in the West Bank (heaven forbid either one) then opinions about Israel will change in the US hard and fast.

        As I see it, Mondoweiss and lots of other people – you included – are part of a growing community of US jews who are reclaiming judaism from the ziobots and when/if the shit hits the fan re: Israel, the very existence of this community will disempower the real anti-semites who will be ranting and raving about “the joos”, meanwhile Dick and Jane Average can see there are jews all across the country who have long criticised Israel and said “not in my name”. I think this is and will be a lot more useful than anything Abe Foxman will or can do. Yes, the comments section here is rough at times, but not nearly as sinister as you seem to think. Things were a lot more heated before moderation – but there is also enough people here that actual anti-semites are called out.

    • Ecru
      April 8, 2013, 4:10 pm

      Sorry oh ultra-sensitive one but there WAS nothing “terribly unique” about the holocaust. However if you disagree, please tell us what was so unique about it?

      Was it the mass murder? No, can’t have been that, that’s happened plenty of times in history. Was it the attempt to wipe entire people’s off the face of the earth? No, that had happened before too. Was it the methods? Well there you might have an argument except of course that every genocide has been accomplished by the technology available at the time, all the way from the Bronze Age on up. So what exactly are we left with that makes it “unique” except perhaps for the amount of shameless political capital people have tried to make from it, people it seems like you good self?

      As for the American slavery. Nope, not “terribly unique;” there was slavery all over the place throughout history and Feudalism was based on slavery for a thousand years. And when you say American I hope you mean both continents considering most slaves were destined for South not North America. Dresden? Have you never read history book because, guess what, cities being utterly destroyed in wars is not “terribly unique” either. Hiroshima? Well now there, finally we have something unique, the first use of the atomic bomb. And that’s it. Destroying a city? See Dresden, it had happened before. Killing civilians? Oh good lord, how many times has that happened in wars, be serious.

      I’m “terribly” sorry you’re sensibilities have been offended, but, and here’s some news for you, something need not be unique to be tragic. In fact, for a lot of us, us “anti-semites” as you call us, the fact that something isn’t unique doesn’t minimise a tragedy – it makes it WORSE! Because not being “terribly unique” means our lamentable species hasn’t learned a damn thing since we climbed down from the sodding trees!

    • Donald
      April 8, 2013, 4:56 pm

      “My beloved friend, Phil, should either shut down all comments or preferably screen them for anti-Semitism, Islamohatred and other forms of bigotry.”

      He already does that, MJ. There was much more in the way of hate statements on both sides several years ago than now. I used to complain about it myself. Nowadays I sometimes see things that I don’t like, but I go to “Open Zion” and see worse, as bad as anything you might have seen here a few years ago, but generally on the other side. If you shut down every site where someone said something insensitive, there wouldn’t be many mainstream websites open to discussion on this subject. I think people just don’t notice the implicit racism of so much of what people on the pro-Israel side say.

      Where you draw the line is a tough call sometimes, or so I would imagine. But I’ve had arguments with pro-Israel types at other websites and people thought we were having a civil discussion. From my POV I was arguing with transparently racist jackasses.

      “I can’t imagine saying there is “nothing terribly unique” about American slavery or Hiroshima or even Dresden. That kind of language is dismissive of peoples’ suffering.”

      I could imagine saying there is nothing terribly unique about some atrocity–it doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s an atrocity. I’ve said that about Israel’s policies–they seem fairly typical of settler colonial states. Which is to say I think they are disgusting and vile, but not terribly unique. Look at American treatment of the Native Americans in the 1800’s. Look at Israel. Not terribly unique.

    • German Lefty
      April 8, 2013, 6:19 pm

      @ mjrosenberg:

      Those who feel the need to say that there is “nothing terribly unique” about the Holocaust are, in my opinion, driven by anti-Semitism. “Not terribly unique.” What an ugly, cavalier way of speaking about mass murder.

      Believe it or not, mass murder or genocide is definitely NOT unique. It happened many times in human history. Pointing out this fact must NOT be misinterpreted as ridiculing the Jewish holocaust. The fact that non-Jews suffered too does NOT negate or minimize the suffering of Jews.
      I think that those who feel the need to say that the Jewish holocaust is “totally unique” are driven by anti-gentilism.

    • German Lefty
      April 8, 2013, 6:22 pm

      I could, if I wanted to, find hundreds if not thousands of anti-Semitic statements here.

      Really? Then give me some examples and explanations for why you think that these statements are anti-Semitic.

    • Elliot
      April 8, 2013, 6:47 pm

      I find Valency’s reasoning in his postings to be quite reasonable. As a Jew whose experienced anti-semitism and comes from a family of Holocaust survivors, I, for one, see no anti-Semitism in the phrase “nothing terribly unique”. It’s well within the conventions of comments.

      So, it’s insensitive. This is the internet, not a published book or edited journalism. But it doesn’t make Valency into an anti-Semite and you should be more careful about tarring people with that brush.

    • Blank State
      April 8, 2013, 7:34 pm

      “My beloved friend, Phil, should either shut down all comments or preferably screen them for anti-Semitism, Islamohatred and other forms of bigotry”

      BTW, Rosenberg, there can be no greater example of “Islamohatred” than that demonstrated by the zionist settlers by their actions towards the Palestinians. And, I see that Hophmi, downthread, has hitched his jackass to your wagon. There’s a message there for ya, but I doubt you’ll get it.

    • valency
      April 8, 2013, 8:34 pm

      Since you are directly responding to me, perhaps you’d like to do me the courtesy of quoting me accurately? First of all I said unfortunately there is nothing particularly unique about the suffering of the Jewish people. (Although I imagine you’ll now straw-man me into arguing that it’s only unfortunate other people have suffered as well!)

      I am at heart a very simple man with a very simple outlook on life: I try to use words as we’ve all agreed they mean. Now, Wiktionary defines “Unique” as “Being the only one of its kind; unequaled, unparalleled or unmatched.”

      Now I’ve already provided for you some brief facts about the Japanese holocaust for you. People rounded up into camps and exterminated death? Check. Deliberate, induced mass starvation? Check. Mass reprisal murders? Check. Mengele-style experiments on the “untermenschen?” Check. And I could bring in Stalin, Pol Pot, the Turkish genocide, Rwanda, Australia’s genocide of the Tasmanians, America’s various “trails of tears” — we could go on and on and on.

      The reason you have such a bad reputation in this debate, well, it’s essentially because you lack any moral clarity. Your sole objection to the conduct of the State of Israel is that it’s bad — for Israel. It damages its PR. It’s bad for its public image. You actually buy into the Zionist frame of values, you just argue it’s impractical for the Israelis to get everything they want. And that’s why you cynically sling around accusations of anti-semitism to shut down criticism, because Zionist values are essentially where your head is at.

      To just about everyone here, it’s uncontroversial to point out that The Holocaust was actually just one Holocaust in a long line of horrific crimes in recent history, one that has been cynically exploited by the Israel lobby. To anyone with a clear head The Holocaust in no way justifies Israeli/Zionist conduct in Palestine any more than the Japanese holocaust justifies Chinese conduct in Tibet.

      But you’re not interested in having an adult discussion Mr. Rosenberg. You just want to heave around loaded language like “anti-Semite” and “minimizing the holocaust” and hope we’ll be intimidated into shutting up. Well you guys have played that card too often. It’s worn paper-thin. I am no longer afraid of it. I know I’m not an anti-Semite, and I know that in no way have I “minimized” anything, but merely cited some examples of crimes that reach the same level as The Holocaust. It’s simply that you’re still so wrapped up in Zionist mythology that you view any attempt to demonstrate the obviously factually true statement there have been many morally equivalent genocides is akin to “minimizing” The Holocaust. And it’s pretty rational for you to do this, because if the people realize this The Holocaust begins to lose its power as the ultimate moral trump card. The trump card only works, after all, if it’s the highest card in the deck.

      I can’t imagine saying there is “nothing terribly unique” about American slavery

      Can you imagine saying unfortunately there is nothing terribly unique about American slavery, and then discussing Arab slavery, Greek slavery, African slavery, Maori slavery, etc etc. If not, you’re incapable of seeing some pretty common patterns throughout history. And if there was some African state out there mostly composed of some ethnic group whose central mythology was that their slavery in America was unique historical crime which forms a justification for an ethnic cleansing operation against there neighbors (Never Again Must We Be Enslaved!) you would indeed be morally obligated to point out that however bad the history might be, their experience is utterly non-unique, that many other groups were treated in the same way, and that other victims have not conducted themselves in this way.

      • Donald
        April 9, 2013, 4:26 pm

        Wow. I didn’t realize until I read your post and then went back and read your earlier posts that MJ was so badly misrepresenting their content.

      • Cliff
        April 10, 2013, 6:04 pm

        Exactly, Donald.

        I don’t ‘get’ how someone can misconstrue a straightforward comment like that.

        Lots of projecting due to tribalism.

        And of course when asked for proof – he vanishes.

        @MJ

        Why don’t you address valency? You have your own blog, yes?

        Maybe you’re used to speaking passively in response to someone (like the list of people you stated to me) rather than directly.

        We can quote you, and you can quote us.

        Shouldn’t be so hard to find a few relevant examples and then explain.

      • MHughes976
        April 12, 2013, 1:25 pm

        I would like, vinyl record stuck in a groove that I am, to ask Mr. Rosenberg what definition of anti-Semitism he has in mind. My definition is ‘unreasonable dislike or worse of at least some things Jewish'; his may be different. Would he think this an anti-Semitic question?

  24. Shegetz
    April 8, 2013, 12:05 pm

    I could, if I wanted to, find hundreds if not thousands of anti-Semitic statements here. My beloved friend, Phil, should either shut down all comments or preferably screen them for anti-Semitism, Islamohatred and other forms of bigotry.

    Oh my. Let’s shut down all discussion of things that offend MJ Rosenberg! That’s the ticket. Er…maybe not?

    Last I checked, the comments here were screened. Maybe they have thicker skin, a desire to actually discuss their ideas and feelings with people who hold opposite views and don’t see the need to cry ‘antisemitism’ every time someone says something stupid, ignorant, or merely not in accordance with their worldview. Gosh, maybe this blog is attempting to educate people? Perish the thought!

    Anti-semites who use the Palestinian cause to hide behind hurt the Palestinian cause. The cause of Palestine is not anti-Semitic. Why let it be tainted by people who found the cause because they just don’t like Jews.

    A wild knee-jerk reaction if I’ve ever seen one. People like you cement the problem, not resolve it. You just cry anti-semitism and want to shut down the ‘offending’ dialogue rather than attempting to engage or educate. Instead, you label it like a disease and suggest it be cut out like a cancer and censored. It’s a narcissistic approach in which you seek to please only yourself and keep things at your own comfort levels.

    Instead, you might find more insight and wisdom in finding out why they think what they do, why they might feel the way that they do and … guess what? You might find out that they’re not the only ones bearing a blind prejudice and making stupid assumptions about others. Imagine that!

    Then again, maybe not. But it’ll sure be better than throwing around a ton of useless, judgmental rhetoric accusing others of being bigots and racists merely because you disagree with them. I shudder to think of what sort of milquetoast snoozefest of a dialogue would go on here if you were permitted to screen these comments.

  25. mikeo
    April 8, 2013, 12:34 pm

    “Those who feel the need to say that there is “nothing terribly unique” about the Holocaust are, in my opinion, driven by anti-Semitism. “Not terribly unique.” What an ugly, cavalier way of speaking about mass murder.”

    MJ here is an alternative explanation – (BTW I do think it is insensitive to say that).

    That some people are not driven to say there is “nothing terribly unique” about the Holocaust by anti-semitism, but rather by incredible frustration at the constant exploitation of the Holocaust for political reasons by certain members of the Jewish community.

    The fact is, just mentioning by way of context the factual information that a larger number of Russians or Chinese were killed in the war or that there were an almost equal or larger number of Non-Jewish victims of the Nazis is seen as in some way justifying the extermination of Jews. This is highly irrational and can surely be linked to the collective psychological trauma of the Holocaust.

    “I could, if I wanted to, find hundreds if not thousands of anti-Semitic statements here. My beloved friend, Phil, should either shut down all comments or preferably screen them for anti-Semitism, Islamohatred and other forms of bigotry.”

    And yet you provide this rather weak example…

    I am a great admirer of your commentary overall but I think you mistake insensitivity for racism here.

    • RoHa
      April 8, 2013, 9:17 pm

      “Those who feel the need to say that there is “nothing terribly unique” about the Holocaust are, in my opinion, driven by anti-Semitism.

      Of course they are. Everything is driven by anti-Semitism.

      But there is something far worse than anti-Semitism.

      People who say “there is nothing terribly unique” simply do not understand the word “unique”. “Unique” means “the only one of its kind”. It is absolute, and so cannot take modifiers like “very”, “slightly”, “rather” or “terribly”. (It would be like saying “there are very twelve months in the year”.)

      Something either is unique, or it isn’t. There are no gradations in uniqueness.

      • marc b.
        April 9, 2013, 8:52 am

        true enough. strictly speaking all historical events are unique. in this context unique is short hand for the superlative, e.g. the worst instance of such and such, the most murderous instance of . . ., and on.

  26. marc b.
    April 8, 2013, 2:36 pm

    Those who feel the need to say that there is “nothing terribly unique” about the Holocaust are, in my opinion, driven by anti-Semitism.

    I could, if I wanted to, find hundreds if not thousands of anti-Semitic statements here.

    instead of reading minds and channeling McCarthy, why don’t you spend a bit of psychic energy analyzing what lead to the hierarchies of suffering debate in the first place. it isn’t sufficient to separate the holocaust from the extermination of slavs, roma, etc. as a method of breaking down history into bite sized chunks, but the insistence that the murder of jews is a historical superlative, that’s what. and where’s your righteous indignation when recent comments here suggested that the deaths of non-jews are/should be of little importance to jews? i don’t recall a single commenter here ever suggesting that the deaths of jews are or should be irrelevant to gentiles. on the contrary. again it’s the pathological, knee-jerk insistence on ‘refuting’ the suffering of others that has been the catalyst for this debate. no historical commentary about the murder of slavs, roma, Armenians, Chinese, etc. can pass without some half-baked response that it was always, everywhere, worse for jewish victims, with statistics to support that conclusion, as if it were mathematically possible to measure cumulative, mass pain. that’s what’s offensive. if you’re intellectually incapable of keeping multiple perspectives in your head at the same time, fine. but most of the rest of us can understand the broader historical forces at work during the war, and can recognize that the murder of jews was part of a larger plan without diminishing jewish victims’ pain and loss.

    The language on this site is offensive.

    yes, and what a brilliant, totalitarian response to being offended: shut down the comments section. that’s really what this is about, your thin skin and the existential crisis you suffer whenever someone contradicts your position. so much for brandeis and an open dialogue.

    • marc b.
      April 9, 2013, 8:49 am

      re-reading the post, some of my comment was unnecessarily personal. and for that I apologize. but the main points, made better by others here, stand.

  27. Dutch
    April 8, 2013, 2:57 pm

    ‘I could, if I wanted to, find hundreds if not thousands of anti-Semitic statements here.’

    Are you serious? I wonder why others didn’t notice these. Is there a huge difference in appreciation of the term? Are all of us anti-Semites? Or are you extremely sensitive? I fear we can only decide once you have pointed at some examples.

  28. Fritz
    April 8, 2013, 3:14 pm

    Some comments are offensive to You. This is totally understandable, since I also read some comments here as offensive and stereotyping and full of prejudices, e.g. about the Irish wife-beaters or Annie’s outcries about Catholics or Your comment in which You wrote in a very bold language about an AIPAC-free restaurant. Many people would see Your comment about an AIPAC-free zone as hateful or even antisemitic, but are You hateful or antisemitic? No, they want to silence Your hopefully sometimes more sophistiated critic of AIPAC in exposing You as someone who hates the friends of Israel or even Jews as such.
    The discussion about the uniqueness of the Jewish holocaust or about the politics of Israel against the Palestinians didn’t opposes Jews as Jews, but people claiming a superior right to teach other people what is allowed and what not – and to silence them putting a single point out of context and expose it as hatful or antisemitic.

  29. Blank State
    April 8, 2013, 6:00 pm

    “Those who feel the need to say that there is “nothing terribly unique” about the Holocaust are, in my opinion, driven by anti-Semitism”

    Oh horseshit. You just lost any respect I had for you. History is stuffed to the gills with mass murders of epic numbers of humans, eradicated in the pursuit of racial or ethnic “cleansing” by one fanatical segment of humanity or another.

    Egads, by some counts, that I happen to believe, the United States is responsible for the deaths of over a million Iraqi non-combatants through war and the sanctions. And who knows how many more will die from the effects of DU dust and the horrible environmental damage we inflicted upon their country? You want an eye opener? Check into what happened at Tuwaitha.

    Accusations of “anti-semitism” because we choose to see the full picture of man’s inhumanity to his fellows, instead of buying into your carefully exploited”special” kind of suffering does not paint a very flattering picture of you.

    “Why let it be tainted by people who found the cause because they just don’t like Jews”

    OK, I’ll bite. Who here, in your esteemed opinion, “just doesn’t like Jews”. Be direct. Name the person, and quote the person, giving us the exact comment that enabled you to reach the conclusion that you are so confident in. Personally, I find your accusation every bit as offensive as the kind of bigotry you are accusing us of.

  30. Eva Smagacz
    April 8, 2013, 6:21 pm

    “Those who feel the need to say that there is “nothing terribly unique” about the Holocaust are, in my opinion, driven by anti-Semitism. “Not terribly unique.” What an ugly, cavalier way of speaking about mass murder.

    I can’t imagine saying there is “nothing terribly unique” about American slavery or Hiroshima or even Dresden. That kind of language is dismissive of peoples’ suffering.”

    You see it exactly backwards.

    These types of comments – often spoken in anger, and designed to shake and reset moral compass – do not diminish suffering of Jews in Shoah – they protest elevating Jewish suffering in Shoah to be more than suffering of non-Jews when visited by genocide.

    Did suffering of three million Jewish Poles who were killed by Nazis terribly unique when compared with the death of three million Slav Poles? Was suffering of six million European Jews who were killed by Hitler terribly unique when compared with the death of seven million Ukranians who were killed by Stalin ?

    Too many accusations of anti-Semitism are simply accusations of not being sufficiently supplicatory to Jewish exceptionalism. While mere mention of Jewish exceptionalism ( which is a polite way of calling Jewish racism ) is considered ipso facto proof of anti-Semitism.

  31. Rusty Pipes
    April 8, 2013, 7:52 pm

    MJ, good to see you back after your comments about “‘pro-Palestinian network’ (i.e, non-Muslims & non-Arabs)” anti-semitism got more than 100 responses two weeks ago. Glad to know that the vigorous and varied replies did not frighten you away. Of course, you are just as free to monitor the comments and links on your blog and twitter account as Phil and Adam are to monitor the comments here. I can’t imagine they’d tell you how to run your site. The comments policy for this site has gone through many stages and refinements over the past few years. I doubt that Phil or Adam believe that it is quite perfect yet, so I would not be surprised if they continue to tweak it even more. But shut it down? Surely you can’t be serious.

    (Just an aside: has your site been bothered by more concern trolls lately — the kind who worry about your being considered a serious man if you associate with this site? The concern troll who used to smear this site as “Mondofront” over at the garish orange site finally got banned there several weeks ago, and I’ve noticed him trying to fill his time since then by smearing Mondoweiss at some other Liberal Zionist sites.)

  32. Rusty Pipes
    April 8, 2013, 9:11 pm

    h/t Angry Arab: Happy International Roma Day!

    The Romani Diaspora began 1000 years ago from what is now Northern India. There are at least 12 million Roma scattered throughout the world. In Europe, Roma people are the largest minority population and have been living in primarily Eastern countries since the Romani Diaspora.

    Despite being Europe’s largest minority group, the Roma have been voiceless for centuries. As a people and as a culture, the Roma have been, and continue to be, misrepresented, mythologized, stereotyped, segregated, persecuted and systematically discriminated against .

    … persecution and discrimination that includes losing a quarter million Roma in the Nazi Holocaust.

  33. ckg
    April 8, 2013, 10:37 pm

    MJ Rosenberg. Always been a big fan of yours, and also Phil and his website. I’m sure you have read Finkelstein’s Holocaust Industry, as most of us here have. Do you have any comments or critiques of it?

  34. Daniel Rich
    April 9, 2013, 3:02 am

    How to get from the horrors of Hiroshima [although, as has been pointed out in a comment above, that during the fire bombing of Tokyo -9–10 March 1945- many more Japanese died horrendous deaths by other means] to the ‘we suffered more than anyone else’ ploy is beyond me. The anti-Semite canard, that once mighty sword, has been battered so vigorously and so mindlessly tossed around, that it’s become a rusty, blunt potato peeler and only useful to do some cherry-picking with
    “Yes, the holocaust must be marked and remembered, but more importantly the message learnt from it must be remembered as well …
    *
    NEVER AGAIN!
    *
    Yet, it continues right here in the land of Israel as can be seen in the following photos… photos that were not shown to President Obama when he recently visited Yad Vashem, The Hall of Remembrance in Jerusalem … Desert Peace – the default holocaust. “

    Pictures do paint a thousand words.

  35. American
    April 9, 2013, 5:10 am

    The censorship efforts seem to be increasing. This guy wants an” International Treaty” by which anti Semitism on the net can be censored world wide. Very bad idea cause I am pretty sure their definition of anti Semitism wouldn’t be the real thing, it would likely be anything that Zios don’t’ like…like saying the holocaust wasn’t unique. Would net sites that talk about Carter’s book Peace Not ‘Apartheid for instance be considered promoting anti semitism? How about Walt, could he still give his opinions on the Jewish lobby or Israel…or what about Mondo, would the criticism here of Israel and of various Jewish Zionist and the Lobby be considered promoting anti Semitism….I’m guessing that is exactly what the censors have in mind.
    One commenter named Matt over at ynet gets it……if you paint a giant bulls eye on yourself you’re just begging to be taken down and I can’t think of a bigger bulls eye in these net dependent times that Jews could wear than being seen as the group who wants to censor the world wide web / or the group for whom the internet is being censored.
    Very, very stupid…..the one guaranteed way to get people talking about you, not to mention resenting you, is making some kind of humongous big deal like world wide censorship on what they can’t see or say or read about you.

    link to ynetnews.com

    ”Eli Hacohen explains that “while in Europe there is tighter supervision of such activity, in the US there are more lenient arrangements in terms of freedom of expression, and so many hate websites operate from there. One of the main problems in my opinion is the failure to reach an international treaty on incitement and anti-Semitism on the Web.”

    Comments
    7. Don’t Censor the Internet
    Anti-semitism and racism are a major issue on the Internet and in real life, but the absolute worst way to deal with it is through censorship.
    Please don’t let Jews be the ones to lead the charge for an “international treaty” to censor the Internet.
    Matt , USA (04.08.13

  36. talknic
    April 9, 2013, 1:24 pm

    List_of_Holocaust_memorials_and_museums link to en.wikipedia.org

    List_of_Armenian_Genocide_memorials link to en.wikipedia.org

    List_of_Hiroshima_memorials link to en.wikipedia.org
    List_of_Hiroshima_memorials_and_museums link to en.wikipedia.org

    List_of_Nagasaki_memorials link to en.wikipedia.org
    List_of_Nagasaki_memorials_and_museums link to en.wikipedia.org

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