Double standard on killing collaborators

Israel/Palestine

Yesterday we pointed out Yale scholar Marci Shore’s piece on the Times op-ed page about the Warsaw Ghetto resistance of the 1940s, and the ways in which this Jewish resistance was memorialized by Zionists as a foundational myth for the Jewish state.

Shore cited an often-overlooked fact: 

In October 1942, the Jewish Combat Organization carried out its first death sentence, assassinating a Jew serving as a policeman in the ghetto. They had to send a message: there was a price for collaboration.

Oppressed Palestinians seem to operate by a similar code. Last November political forces in Gaza killed six men accused of being informants for Israel and dragged the body of one through the streets of Gaza City.

But those actions brought round condemnation from valiant defenders of the civilized world. 

For instance, Jeffrey Goldberg tweeted:

This is what Hamas does to Palestinians it doesn’t like

The IDF spokesman tweeted:

Hey organizations: when drags bodies through the street, its time to condemn.

Sort of like terrorism. It’s barbaric– unless Jews do it.

P.S. Annie Robbins points out that Hamas condemned those executions.

Hamas’ Deputy Politburo chief Mousa Abu Marzook posted a message on his Facebook page condemning the execution of six people accused of being Israel collaborators.

He demanded that those behind the act be tried.

She notes that Hamas also kills collaborators, but after a trial.

90 Responses

  1. pabelmont
    April 20, 2013, 11:15 am

    The sad reality is, likely, that Hamas (and PA?) would prefer that Palestinians fear THEM more than they fear Israel. Or fear their retaliation for collaboration more than they fear whatever blackmail Israel uses to compel/induce collaboration.

    And anyhow, the civilized people of the world don’t see Warsaw Ghetto Jewish anti-collaborationism as unreasonable: after all, they were facing a monster, as (we all know and may freely declare) the Nazis were, whereas the Palestinians only face the (relatively) benign Israel (a lie we may nevertheless all freely declare).

    • RoHa
      April 20, 2013, 9:52 pm

      “the civilized people of the world don’t see Warsaw Ghetto Jewish anti-collaborationism as unreasonable”

      I think that most of the civilised people of the world don’t know anything more than the name of the Warsaw Ghetto. (And perhaps not even that.) It was just a small part of the action in a large, long, and complex war that was over before most of the civilised people of the world were born.

  2. mondonut
    April 20, 2013, 11:21 am

    Awesome. So having discovered a 70+ year old murder in the Jewish ghetto you can simultaneously justify widespread Palestinian murder of collaborators and (inaccurately) equate the Jewish experience under Nazis with that of the Palestinians.

    • Donald
      April 20, 2013, 1:03 pm

      Awesome. In one sentence mondonut pretends that Westerners only praise the murder of one particular collaborator on one occasion and that because the Nazis were worse nobody should condemn Israel.

      We all know the double standard exists. “One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.” Only a hypocrite would pretend it doesn’t.

    • talknic
      April 20, 2013, 1:26 pm

      @ mondonut “having discovered a 70+ year old murder in the Jewish ghetto”

      The execution of a collaborator.

      “you can simultaneously justify widespread … “

      “widespread” Stats please?

      “… Palestinian murder of collaborators”

      The execution of collaborators.

      “(inaccurately) equate the Jewish experience under Nazis with that of the Palestinians”

      According to the UNSC, the Jewish state is in breach of Laws, the UN Charter and relative conventions which ironically were adopted in large part because of the treatment of Jews under the Nazis.

      If the Jewish state was in the ghetto it would have been executed too.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      April 20, 2013, 1:30 pm

      ”widespread Palestinian murder of collaborators”

      ”Widespread?” Really? It’s well known that the OPT is riddled with collaborators, something which should surprise nobody, given that the Palestinian people are at the mercy of Israel for everything, including medical care for their families. However, correct me if I’m wrong, but only a relatively small number of those collaborators are killed. And the fact of the matter is that EVERY resistance movement, throughout history, has dealt with collaborators in an extremely harsh manner. The much romanticised French resistance often used to kill not only the collaborator him or herself, but their entire family too. In fact, you might even say that, by historical standards, Palestinian treatment of spies and collaborators has been relatively mild by comparison. Yet those who will find excuses and ‘explanations’ when Israel kills entire families in Gaza will still weep crocodile tears when collaborators receive the same treatment collaborators have always received. Some of us are wise enough to see through this.

    • justicewillprevail
      April 20, 2013, 1:40 pm

      No, if you read the article you will see that the point is about the hypocrisy and moral selectivism of people like you, who choose to laud and condemn the same actions depending on your prejudices. It probably goes over your head.

      However, some Warsaw ghetto survivors do see the equivalence of their experience and the Palestinians, and are less selective than you are when it comes to condemning acts of evil:
      link to digitaljournal.com

    • Cliff
      April 20, 2013, 2:00 pm

      Why does it have to be as bad as ‘under the Nazis’?

      If you’re living under colonial rule for decades, you’re going to become radicalized.

      You say this killing is widespread. Prove it.

      Once again, Israeli colonists and their supporters hold their victims down by the NECK and lecture them on how to behave.

      You’re stealing and murdering these people for decades and act surprised that they’ve become this way?

      Reminds me of this scene from American Psycho:

      Mondonut,

      Do you think killing collaborators is ok if its ‘blah blah Nazis’?

      But that throughout all human history, killing collaborators is wrong besides that ONE case?

      It’s always wrong. But I think collaborators should be imprisoned (under a certain context).

      I.e., Bradley Manning is not a ‘collaborator’ – he is a whistleblower bringing attention to illegal and immoral actions of HIS government for the SAKE of his country (to better it).

      A collaborator who does so because their family is threatened shouldn’t even be considered a collaborator. They’re victims of blackmail.

      But if you’re under brutal military occupation and colonization for decades and some of your people are helping the occupiers, it’s natural to become enraged.

      That wouldn’t give you the ‘right’ to do anything violent. But I think it’s fair to imprison people who are helping perpetuate the vast majority of your peoples’ current suffering.

      Of course for Zionists like you mondonut, this is a gotcha-style discussion full of memes and ‘point scoring’.

      You may be capable of nuance but you only apply it to Jewish this and Jewish that with respect to Zionism.

      Begone troll.

    • Ecru
      April 20, 2013, 2:09 pm

      Would you like all the other examples from the French, Greek, Dutch etc. resistance organisations during WWII? Guess what they did to collaborators……

      And it’s very easy to equate the Palestinian experience with that of the Jews under Nazi rule prior to the death camps since Zionism basically IS Nazism for Jews. This time with Jews as the “Master Race” and the Palestinians (and really everyone else but luckily we’re outside direct Zionist power) as the “Untermensch”

    • amigo
      April 20, 2013, 2:35 pm

      ” Awesome. So having discovered a 70+ year old murder in the Jewish ghetto”.

      So history does not count when it serves the Zionist agenda.

      Awesome,So having left the so called Jewish state two thousand years ago you now claim it as still belonging to Jews only.

      Hypocracy.

    • Ellen
      April 20, 2013, 4:26 pm

      MondoNut, did you understand the article:

      It was about hypocrisy: Shameful, even criminal treatment of collaborators is nothing new.

      “In Paris there were cases of prostitutes kicked to death for having accepted German soldiers as clients. …”
      link to guardian.co.uk

      • seafoid
        April 22, 2013, 9:48 am

        One of the saddest stories about the treatment of women in France after the war was that of “the recluse of Saint Flour”. Esther Albuy was her name and she was accused of consorting with German soldiers during the war. Her father and later her brothers confined her to the family home because of the shame and she only left it in 1983 after a fire broke out.

        link to books.google.ch

        Cantal is one of the poorest and most conservative parts of France and the women paid the price.

    • Hostage
      April 20, 2013, 5:19 pm

      So having discovered a 70+ year old murder in the Jewish ghetto . . .

      There were several similar cases recorded in Nachman Ben-Yehuda, “Political Assassinations by Jews: A Rhetorical Device for Justice”, SUNY Press, 1992.

      For example, the IDF executed Meir Tobianski over allegations of collaboration with the enemy. The Haganah had assasinated Jacob Israël de Haan and circulated rumers justifying the act on the grounds that he had collaborated with the Arabs to the detriment of the Yishuv. The Revisionist newspaper, Hazit Ha-am, printed a thinly disguised death threat against Chaim Arlosoroff accusing him of the crime of collaboration with an enemy of the Jewish people. Arlosoroff’s wife identified Revisionist as the culprits in her husband’s murder.

      Eliahu Giladi had allegedly planned to carry-out a massive assasination campaign against Jewish leaders who collaborated with the British administration. But his own subordinates, including Yitzak Shamir, managed to murder Giladi first.

      Oppressed Palestinians seem to operate by a similar code.

      So does the United States. The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and the Manual for Courts Martial (MCM) provide that:

      “Any person who—
      …(2) without proper authority, knowingly harbors or protects or gives intelligence to or communicates or corresponds with or holds any intercourse with the enemy, either directly or indirectly; shall suffer death or such other punishment as a court-martial or military commission may direct.”

      — 10 USC § 904 – Art. 104. Aiding the enemy link to law.cornell.edu

      That was the state of the law, before drone attacks were adopted as a form of “due process”.

    • marc b.
      April 21, 2013, 12:35 pm

      jewish terrorist organizations killed and terrorized other jews who engaged in business with arabs in pre-48 palestine, and killed and terrorized other jews whose politics were inconsistent with their particular plans for independence. there is no ‘discovery’ and the historical example given is not a unique incident of jewish violence against jewish collaborators, perceived or actual. you’re being disinegenuous to be polite.

  3. David Samel
    April 20, 2013, 12:02 pm

    After France was liberated from the Nazis, the French executed literally thousands of French collaborators. On the other hand, after Israel’s 2000 withdrawal from southern Lebanon after two decades of occupation, Lebanon (and Hezbollah) treated collaborators in the “South Lebanon Army” with leniency in the spirit of reconciliation.

  4. Tzombo
    April 20, 2013, 1:19 pm

    Not just in France or the Warsaw Ghetto, all over Europe collaborators were killed by the resistance while the war and occupation were ongoing. And during liberation ordinary people took revenge on collaborators by shaving their heads and lynching them if they got the chance, with allied forces not always able to stop them.

  5. Diane Mason
    April 20, 2013, 1:26 pm

    I disagree with the opinion of Haim Baram that the Israeli education system has managed to instil a ‘Holocaust awareness’ in its pupils (Kol Ha’Ir 12.5.89). It’s not an awareness of the Holocaust but rather the myth of the Holocaust or even a falsification of the Holocaust (in the sense that ‘a half-truth is worse than a lie’) which has been instilled here.

    As one who himself lived through the Holocaust, first in Warsaw then in Bergen-Belsen, I will give an immediate example of the total ignorance of daily life during the Holocaust. In the Warsaw ghetto, even during the period of the first massive extermination (June to October 1943), one saw almost no German soldiers. Nearly all the work of administration, and later the work of transporting hundreds of thousands of Jews to their deaths, was carried out by Jewish collaborators. Before the outbreak of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (the planning of which only started after the extermination of the majority of Jews in Warsaw), the Jewish underground killed, with perfect justification, every Jewish collaborator they could find. If they had not done so the Uprising could never have started. The majority of the population of the Ghetto hated the collaborators far more than the German Nazis. Every Jewish child was taught, and this saved the lives of some them “if you enter a square from which there are three exits, one guarded by a German SS man, one by an Ukrainian and one by a Jewish policeman, then you should first try to pass the German, and then maybe the Ukrainian, but never the Jew”.

    One of my own strongest memories is that, when the Jewish underground killed a despicable collaborator close to my home at the end of February 1943, I danced and sang around the still bleeding corpse together with the other children. I still do not regret this, quite the contrary.

    It is clear that such events were not exclusive to the Jews, the entire Nazi success in easy and continued rule over millions of people stemmed from the subtle and diabolical use of collaborators, who did most of the dirty work for them. But does anybody now know about this ? This, and not what is ‘instilled’ was the reality. Of the Yad Vashem theatre, I do not wish to speak, at all. It, and its vile exploiting, such as honouring South African collaborators with the Nazis are truly beneath contempt.[that was John Vorster with Menachem Begin]

    Therefore, if we knew a little of the truth about the Holocaust, we would at least understand (with or without agreeing) why the Palestinians are now eliminating their collaborators. That is the only means they have if they wish to continue to struggle against our limb-breaking regime.

    link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com

    • Keith
      April 20, 2013, 4:04 pm

      DIANE MASON- I think it is worth adding, for those who don’t follow your link, that the author of your quote is the late Israel Shahak.

    • American
      April 22, 2013, 2:59 pm

      No doubt the collaborators where the kind who went on to become the zionist of Israel today. If Jews want to know who their dangerous enemy is today look no further than zionism.

  6. Maximus Decimus Meridius
    April 20, 2013, 1:43 pm

    Here’s a very interesting story about Palestinian collaborators in Al Akhbar English:

    link to english.al-akhbar.com

    It points out that many collaborators don’t set out with the conscious intention of betraying their people, but that Israel’s exploitation of their desperation leads them into a web from which they cannot escape:

    ”The Shin Bet uses many methods to ensnare and recruit collaborators, including exploiting the poverty of some Palestinians by offering financial incentives.

    Once caught in the trap, these collaborators rarely escape it alive, according to Abu-Hassan, who once helped a relative turn himself in after he confessed to getting caught up in the Israelis’ web.

    “My cousin was never an immoral person, but he was a victim of poverty and destitution,” said Abu-Hassan. “He could not tell us about what he was doing, nor could he break free from what he was involved in. He found himself getting sucked in deeper and deeper.”

    Also, the article mentions that some collaborators who are discovered and pardoned by Hamas, later end up being ‘eliminated’ by…. Israel.

    ”“When the government in Gaza offered amnesty to repenting collaborators, he became fearful about becoming further entangled in spying for Israel, especially since he was not involved in any assassinations,” he continued. “He came to me and told me everything, seeking my advice. I told him immediately that he should turn himself in, and later went with him to the government where he gave himself up in return for amnesty.”

    Abu-Hassan said his relative was sentenced to one year in prison, since he was not involved in any killings.

    But the Israelis would not let their former agent be, and he was killed by an Israeli airstrike that targeted his home in the northern Gaza Strip.”

    So do those hasbarists who cried crocodile tears over collaborators killed by Palestinians also decry their murder by Israel? Or are they no longer worthy of sympathy when Israel has no further use for them?

    • American
      April 23, 2013, 6:45 pm

      Well Hamas has nothing on the US —we use to kill for a lot less.

      1945: Private Eddie Slovik, the last American shot for desertion

      On January 31, 1945, Private Edward Donald “Eddie” Slovik became a curious outlier of World War II: he was executed by firing squad by the U.S. Army for desertion. He is the only person to have been so punished for that crime since the Civil War.

      Pvt Slovik was, by all accounts, quiet and helpful, by no means a coward, and more than willing to aid in the effort of World War II, traits which would have put him among a large class of that war’s veterans. Unfortunately, he was also immobilized by shelling. Equally unfortunately, he knew it, and he decided to do something about it.

      Slovik and a friend, Pvt John F. Tankey, first separated from their detachment under artillery fire in late August 1944, shortly after being shipped to France. The pair hooked up with a Canadian unit and spent six weeks pitching in. Having recused themselves from the hard shelling others were experiencing on the front line, they opted to rejoin their regular U.S. unit: Slovik and Tankey sent a letter to their commanding officer explaining their absence and returned on Oct. 7.

      But the front lines were not a place for Pvt Slovik.

      After his assignment to the rifle unit, which would face imminent danger during shelling, Slovik asked to be placed in the rear guard, indicating he was too scared to remain in front. His request was refused. He then reportedly asked whether leaving the unit again would be considered desertion, was told it would be, and opted for the seemingly safer route of, well, deserting. One day later, Slovik was back at a U.S. camp, this time turning himself in to the camp cook. He had drafted a letter explaining his actions and indicating that he knowingly deserted, permanently recording his guilt on paper.

      It’s not clear whether Pvt Slovik was acting on principles or out of an understanding of the U.S. military judicial system. He was by no means the only soldier without affinity for the conditions of war, particularly on the allied side. During the war, thousands of soldiers were tried and convicted in military courts for desertion, but up to then, all had received only time in the brig. What is clear is that Slovik was repeatedly offered opportunities to return to the line, and he equally repeatedly refused.

      The case was adjudicated on Nov 11 by nine staff officers of the 28th Division, none of whom had yet been in battle. One of those judges, Benedict B. Kimmelman, wrote a stark and intriguing account of his role in the story of Pvt Slovik, capturing the scene thusly:

      Five witnesses were heard. The cross-examinations were perfunctory. The defense made no closing argument. The court recessed for ten minutes, resumed, and retired almost immediately afterward. Three ballots were taken in closed court, the verdicts unanimously guilty on all counts. In open court once more, the president announced the verdict and the sentence: to be dishonorably discharged, to forfeit all pay and allowances due, and to be shot to death with musketry. The trial had begun at 10:00 A.M.; it was over at 11:40 A.M.

      As with all court martial cases, Slovik’s was sent to a judge advocate for review. His criminal record, including everything from destruction of property to public intoxication to embezzlement, did not endear him to the reviewer. More importantly, though, the advocate felt Slovik could be made an example:

      He has directly challenged the authority of the government, and future discipline depends upon a resolute reply to this challenge. If the death penalty is ever to be imposed for desertion, it should be imposed in this case, not as a punitive measure nor as retribution, but to maintain that discipline upon which alone an army can succeed against the enemy.

      Strangely, Pvt Slovik was the only person who would be exemplified this way.

      Though the military tried 21,000 desertion cases and passed down 49 death sentences for desertion during the war, it carried out only Slovik’s. And in the war’s final battles, with Germany collapsing, his execution seemed like a surreal throwback. As Kimmelman notes, hundreds if not thousands of soldiers were strictly guilty of dereliction of duty and desertion in the waning days of 1944.

      They’re not shooting me for deserting the United Stated Army — thousands of guys have done that. They’re shooting me for bread I stole when I was 12 years old. (Source)

      Three weeks after his conviction and three weeks before the Battle of the Bulge, Slovik’s execution order was confirmed by the 28th Division’s commander, Major General Norman “Dutch” Cota. Cota was disturbed by Slovik’s forthrightness in confessing to the desertion, and, as a front line commander who had sustained severe casualty rates in the Battle of Hurtgen Forest, had no sympathy for the crime.

      After an appeal to the deaf ears of Dwight Eisenhower shortly before the sentence was to be carried out, Slovik was out of options. He was taken to the courtyard of an estate near the village of Sainte-Marie-aux-Mines and shot by 11 Army marksmen* at 10 a.m. By 10:04, as they were reloading, he was declared dead. His body was interred at a French cemetery, and after decades of lobbying the U.S. government, his remains were returned to Michigan in 1987.

      Because he was dishonorably discharged, Slovik was not entitled to a pension, and his wife, Antoinette, stopped receiving payments. Curiously, though the Army managed to communicate this to her, they omitted the bit about the execution. She found out in 1953 from William Bradford Huie.

      Huie was a journalist who took immediate interest in Slovik’s story, popularizing it with his book The Execution of Private Slovik, which was released in 1954. Twenty years later, the book and title were requisitioned for a well-received TV movie starring Martin Sheen and funded by Frank Sinatra.

      * The firing squad included 12 marksmen, but one was given a blank. Despite their skill, the 11 remaining shooters did not manage to kill him instantaneously.”

  7. Citizen
    April 20, 2013, 2:32 pm

    Can the Palestinians learn anything from the few times Jews escaped from their fate in German concentration/death camps? link to filebox.vt.edu

  8. Obsidian
    April 20, 2013, 3:33 pm

    The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were facing extermination.
    The Palestinians in Gaza are facing the task of building a State of their own.

    Slight difference, wouldn’t you say?

    • Ellen
      April 20, 2013, 4:40 pm

      What is the difference between that and the ongoing Plan Dalet which calls for extermination?

      There is no intention by the Zionist enterprise to allow a “State of their own.” Never was.

      A State, by definition for example, ensures protection of its citizens and borders.

      You really do live in an altered reality.

      • Obsidian
        April 22, 2013, 5:32 am

        @Ellen

        “What is the difference between that and the ongoing Plan Dalet which calls for extermination?”

        Up till now, I’ve resisted the urge to call you a loon, but this quote of yours is too much.

      • Ellen
        April 22, 2013, 12:21 pm

        Obsidian, go ahead and use name calling. (Name calling, is a method of Hasbara when at a loss for an answer.)

        Instead of just calling me a loon, tell us the difference; and while at it what is so loony about the question on Plan Dalet?

    • K Renner
      April 20, 2013, 4:58 pm

      Kind of hard to build a state when you’re hindered and starved and bombed and shot at and lied about to the world at every opportunity.

    • AlGhorear
      April 20, 2013, 5:30 pm

      “The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were facing extermination.
      The Palestinians in Gaza are facing the task of building a State of their own.

      Slight difference, wouldn’t you say?”

      Not much difference at all. Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were facing extermination and Palestinians in the West Bank are facing colonization and ethnic cleansing. Their very existence is threatened on a daily basis. Israel exercises control over the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip, including entry and exit, the road system, the tax money, flow of goods and on and on. Hard to build a state when your every move is dictated by a foreign entity bent on taking the land where your state is to be built.

      Saying Palestinians should get on with building their state is like saying that’s what the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto should have done, when in fact they were fighting for their very existence.

    • justicewillprevail
      April 20, 2013, 5:48 pm

      I think Chavka Folman-Raban, a Warsaw ghetto survivor, has a lot more insight into the similarities than vapid deniers like you:

      link to digitaljournal.com

      She told her audience that the occupation is evil and they must act in rebellion against it. At least some people have moral courage and integrity. I know it is an alien concept for you.

    • Shingo
      April 20, 2013, 6:44 pm

      Slight difference, wouldn’t you say?

      Yes, the Palestinians are faced the task of building a State of their own while also facing extermination.

      HUGE difference.

    • talknic
      April 20, 2013, 10:42 pm

      Obsidian

      “The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were facing extermination.
      The Palestinians in Gaza are facing the task of building a State of their own.

      Slight difference, wouldn’t you say?”

      When you point out two different things, yes, they’re different. It’s not surprising.

      Here’s a few of a long list of similarities… Special passes ( if any) to move around in their own country, collective punishment, seizure of property/land, propaganda smearing slurs, racism, bigotry etc

      “The Palestinians in Gaza are facing the task of building a State of their own.”

      First they face the task of stopping the Jewish State from illegally acquiring even more non-Israel territory and ; finding a way of having the Jewish state end it’s 65 year occupation of non-Israeli territory. Until that happens independent statehood is impossible.

    • Cliff
      April 22, 2013, 12:20 pm

      The Palestinians are unable to build a State because of Jewish colonialism.

      Get out of Palestine.

  9. Daniel Rich
    April 20, 2013, 6:35 pm

    Q: In October 1942, the Jewish Combat Organization carried out its first death sentence, assassinating a Jew serving as a policeman in the ghetto. They had to send a message: there was a price for collaboration.

    R: What’s history really worth to us if we’re only exposed to parts of what really happened [as far as we know and/or are aware of]?

    November 7, 1939 – Nazis Plan to Segregate Jews in Warsaw Quarter; Ghettos Throughout Poland Foreseen.

    “The other current was the Jewish councils, the Judenrat, formed by the leaders of the Jewish establishment. In each ghetto a Jewish council was charged by the Nazis with policing the population and suppressing resistance.” – Link. Not shot, I guess…

    “On 22 July 1942, the Judenrat received instructions from the SS that all Warsaw Jews were to be “resettled” to the East. Exceptions were made for Jews working in Nazi German factories, Jewish hospital staff, members of the Judenrat with their families, members of the Jewish Ghetto Police with their families.” Link

    “The American Joint Distribution Committee sponsored ZTOS (Zydowskie Towarzystwo Opieki Spolecznej, Jewish Mutual Aid Society) to lend assistance to 250,000 Jewish people during the Passover of 1940. This was achieved by setting up soup kitchens, which provided a bowl of soup and a piece of bread to all comers.” – Link

    More double standards? Plans for monument irks Warsaw Jewish community.

  10. Mayhem
    April 20, 2013, 7:42 pm

    The fallacious assumption here is that collaborators are all the same – that the situation where the Jews faced total extermination from the Nazis is the same as that for recalcitrant Palestinians who don’t believe in or support the fundamentalists that supposedly ‘represent’ them. Palestinians who believe there might be a better way. Palestinians who are fed up with their sham leaders.
    The effort is being made here to draw parallels that are completely false with other situations that were completely different and where the behavior of those fighting for their freedom could be unquestionably justified.
    After Stalin had defeated Trotsky’s supporters, he staged the infamous Moscow Trials of 1936-38 where the ‘Old Bolsheviks’, including Trotsky, who led the October Revolution, were accused of counter-revolutionary activity, sabotage, murder, and collaboration with fascism. Who was right here? Stalin or Trotsky?
    Do we automatically take the side of Sunni Muslims belonging to Sistan-Baluchistan, a Jihadi terror group that threatens to kill those Muslims who “collaborate with Iran” link to iranmilitarynews.org?
    Did the Jewish executioners drag the bodies of their collaborators through the streets to frighten the rest of the population into submission? Did the Jewish executioners grab those merely suspected and kill them without proper arrest or trial, giving them no opportunity to defend themselves?
    There is no double standard here, the comparison is plainly ridiculous. Just more one-sided advocacy for the woeful pro-Palestinian cause.

    • Cliff
      April 22, 2013, 12:24 pm

      What are you saying Mayhem?

      What do the whole of the Palestinian people have to gain by collaborating?

      So you want all Palestinians to collaborate? What does collaborating entail?

      None of this changes the reality that this is a colonial conflict and has always been one. You’re a bunch of thieves.

      Of course people are pissed off at collaborating with Israeli thieves.

  11. DICKERSON3870
    April 20, 2013, 7:54 pm

    RE: “Double standard on killing collaborators . . . Sort of like terrorism. It’s barbaric– unless Jews do it.” ~ Weiss, et al.

    MY CONTRIBUTION: George Orwell — in his 1945 “Notes on Nationalism” — explained exactly the warped form of thinking that creates this mindset:

    [EXCERPTS] . . . All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by ‘our’ side. . .
    . . . The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. For quite six years the English admirers of Hitler contrived not to learn of the existence of Dachau and Buchenwald. And those who are loudest in denouncing the German concentration camps are often quite unaware, or only very dimly aware, that there are also concentration camps in Russia. Huge events like the Ukraine famine of 1933, involving the deaths of millions of people, have actually escaped the attention of the majority of English russophiles. Many English people have heard almost nothing about the extermination of German and Polish Jews during the present war. Their own antisemitism has caused this vast crime to bounce off their consciousness. In nationalist thought there are facts which are both true and untrue, known and unknown. A known fact may be so unbearable that it is habitually pushed aside and not allowed to enter into logical processes, or on the other hand it may enter into every calculation and yet never be admitted as a fact, even in one’s own mind. . .

    SOURCE; “Notes on Nationalism”, by George Orwell – link to orwell.ru

    P.S. “The very concept of objective truth is fading out of the world. Lies will pass into history.” ~ George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair, 1903-1950)

  12. mcohen
    April 20, 2013, 10:11 pm

    Double standard on killing collaborators
    by Phil Weiss, with Adam Horowitz and Annie Robbins on April 20, 2013 21

    so all 3 wrote this statement which means that you all stand accused of collaboration by unknown persons

    in 3 months from now there could be a full scale attack on israel-there will be a call to arms
    will you respond or not

    yes or no

    The War of Ideas in the Middle East will become the seige of israel

    will you stand with the jews in israel or its enemies

    yes or no

    not interested in your ideas ,i have heard them all-just a simple

    yes or no

  13. yonah fredman
    April 20, 2013, 11:29 pm

    The equation: collaborating with the Zionists is the same as collaborating with the Nazis involves the direction of the thought equating Zionism and Nazism and I rebel against that.

    The Nazi collaborators were policemen in uniforms putting Nazi rules into effect. The Zionist collaborators are/were spies. Every person will react to a spy in a particular fashion. But policemen putting Nazi rules into effect is in a different category.

    • seafoid
      April 22, 2013, 9:50 am

      “equating Zionism and Nazism ”

      I rebel against the thought equating Zionism and My Little Pony.
      The truth is somewhere in the middle. Weighted more towards cruelty than kisses.

    • Cliff
      April 22, 2013, 12:27 pm

      No it doesn’t.

      You are shallow and Richard Witty-lite.

      The comparison is from the perspective of the struggle and not the gas chambers.

      Nazism is like Zionism and Zionism is like Nazism.

      If you stripped away the gas chambers, Nazism would still be an ethnocentric racist fascist ideology that persecuted the next populous Ethnoreligious group.

  14. asherpat
    April 21, 2013, 5:15 am

    The moral equivalence between Nazi-led murder of millions in the Holocaust and the oppression of Palestinian Arabs by Israel is preposterous enough.

    But trying to make an analogy between wrongdoings of a political party (Hamas) with ethnicity (Jews) smells of racism, or in this case of anti-Semitism.

    Do I hear Shlomo Zand’s supporters that Jews are not a nation (or rather an invented nation)? So Jews are not a “nation”? If so, please reconcile that with the main thrust of this article.

    Some logical conundrum, I know. This is what happens when hatred blinds reason.

    • miriam6
      April 21, 2013, 8:48 pm

      Actually Asherpat,

      Shlomo Sand is now on record as stating he believes the PALESTINIANS THEMSELVES are an INVENTED nation!

      You can see for yourselves on this link which includes this U-Tube video in which
      Sand argues that Zionism created TWO new national identities.

      An Israeli People – and a Palestinian People.

      Mr Sand’s latest attention grabbing stunt ( other than digging up Arthur Koestler’s ridiculed Khazar theory) , seems to be confirming HE was the remorseful Israeli soldier in Mahmoud Darwish’s poem :

      “A Soldier dreaming of white lillies”

      Really!

      Well ,whatever, but evidently it’s all been a nice little earner for Mr Sand.

      Incidentally Arthur Koestler also believed in other varieties’ of mumbo- jumbo.

      Koestler was instrumental in setting up a research centre in Edinburgh for research into the Paranormal !

      Koestler was ridiculed as a pretentious phoney for both his “Thirteenth Tribe eccentricities and his beliefs in the Paranormal by satirical magazine Private Eye when it was edited by Richard Ingrams.

      link to richardmillet.wordpress.com.
      link to richardmillett.wordpress.com

      link to onedaringjew.wordpress.com

      • Cliff
        April 22, 2013, 12:28 pm

        Every people is created you troll.

        Jewishness is not an element on the periodic table.

      • tree
        April 22, 2013, 12:41 pm

        You probably missed this, miriam. Genetic studies have confirmed the Khazarian Theory with respect to the ancestry of Ashkenazim Jews.

        From ynetnews:

        Jews of European descent, often called Ashkenazim, account for some 90% of the more than 13 million Jews in the world today.

        According to the so-called Rhineland Hypothesis, Ashkenazim descended from Jews who progressively fled Palestine after the Muslim conquest of 638 AD.

        They settled in southern Europe and then, in the late Middle Ages, about 50,000 of them moved from the Rhineland in Germany into eastern Europe, according to the hypothesis.

        But detractors say this idea is implausible.

        Barring a miracle – which some supporters of the Rhineland Hypothesis have in fact suggested – the scenario would have been demographically impossible.

        It would mean that the population of Eastern European Jews leapt from 50,000 in the 15th century to around eight million at the start of the 20th century.

        That birth rate would have been 10 times greater than that of the local non-Jewish population. And it would have occurred despite economic hardship, disease, wars and pogroms that ravaged Jewish communities.

        Seeking new light in the argument, a study published in the British journal Genome Biology and Evolution, compares the genomes of 1,287 unrelated individuals who hail from eight Jewish and 74 non-Jewish populations.

        Geneticist Eran Elhaik of the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health in Baltimore, Maryland, trawled through this small mountain of data in search of single changes in the DNA code that are linked to a group’s geographical origins.

        Such telltales have been used in past research to delve into the origins of the Basque people and the pygmy people of central Africa.

        Among European Jews, Elhaik found ancestral signatures that pointed clearly to the Caucasus and also, but to a smaller degree, the Middle East.
        The results, said Elhaik, give sound backing for the rival theory – the “Khazarian Hypothesis.”

        Backed by archaeological findings
        Under this concept, eastern European Jews descended from the Khazars, a hotchpotch of Turkic clans that settled the Caucasus in the early centuries AD and, influenced by Jews from Palestine, converted to Judaism in the 8th century.

        The Judeo-Khazars built a flourishing empire, drawing in Jews from Mesopotamia and imperial Byzantium.

        They became so successful that they sent offshoots into Hungary and Romania, planting the seeds of a great Diaspora.

        But Khazaria collapsed in the 13th century when it was attacked by the Mongols and became weakened by outbreaks of the Black Death.

        The Judeo-Khazars fled westwards, settling in the rising Polish Kingdom and in Hungary, where their skills in finance, economics and politics were in demand, and eventually spread to central and western Europe, according to the “Khazarian Hypothesis.”

        “We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaised Khazars, Greco-Roman Jews, Mesopotamian Jews and Judeans,” says Elhaik.

        more at link

        link to ynetnews.com

      • goldmarx
        April 23, 2013, 6:45 pm

        Elhaik makes several factual errors in the articles that he is the supposed author of. First, Yiddish (in which I am fluent) has no Turkic elements, its grammar is German, and its vocabulary is mostly Germanic as well. If Ashkenazic Jews are primarily descended of the Khazars, why does Yiddish have no trace of the Turkic-Khazar language?

        Secondly, Hungary is not a Slavic nation. It is Central European – Magyar.

        Third, Elhaik says, “Yiddish, the language of Central and Eastern European Jews, began as a Slavic language” before being reclassified as High German, he notes. Wrong! Yiddish was always considered “Hukh-Deutsch”, as I learned in the Workmen Circle schools, and if it was classified as anything else, that betrayed ignorance on the part of the so-called scholar

        Fourth, Elhaik accuses those who back the Rhineland hypothesis of doing so for non-academic, paritsan reasons – but he produces no evidence to support these accusations. In this way lies slander.

      • Shingo
        April 24, 2013, 9:45 am

        If Ashkenazic Jews are primarily descended of the Khazars, why does Yiddish have no trace of the Turkic-Khazar language?

        Probably the same reason that Hebrew has no traces of Yiddish.

      • Ellen
        April 24, 2013, 10:03 am

        Yiddish thought to be “Hukh-Deutsch?” High or “Hoch Deutsche” Never. Yiddish, like many Germany dialects was a never ever considered to be High German. The world High or “Hoch” or “Huckh” in dialect, does not mean quality of language, but rather not the official high written language.

        Hungary, like much of the neighboring Balkans was settled by Slavic tribes in different periods.

      • goldmarx
        April 24, 2013, 1:14 pm

        Really? Do you want to stake your life on the assertion that Hebrew has no traces of Yiddish (considering that Eliezer Ben Yehuda was himself a Yiddish speaker)?

      • Hostage
        April 24, 2013, 1:14 pm

        Elhaik makes several factual errors in the articles that he is the supposed author of. . . . If Ashkenazic Jews are primarily descended of the Khazars, why does Yiddish have no trace of the Turkic-Khazar language?

        There’s no doubt about the identity of the author of the Oxford Journals Genome article. It’s a very reliable peer-reviewed publication. link to gbe.oxfordjournals.org

        Your concluding comment isn’t an example of a “factual error”. The experts say that Russian, Polish, German, and Anglo-Saxon English all have Turic loan words from Eastern European sources.

        In any event, it has long-since been demonstrated that 10th century Khazars had adopted Semitic names. There were fully Judaized and corresponded with other Jewish communities in “educated Hebrew”. They were perfectly familiar with genuine Jewish rabbinical traditions. There are plenty of Hebrew loan words in Yiddish and plenty of transplanted rabbinical traditions and transplanted Semitic names to boot. See Norman Golb & Omeljan Pritsa, Khazarian Hebrew Documents of the Tenth Century, Cornell University Press, 1982 link to amazon.com

        Secondly, Hungary is not a Slavic nation. It is Central European – Magyar.

        Correction: Genetic studies indicate that a mixed multitude participated in the Hungarian conquest, including some Slavic groups. They in-turn subjugated and assimilated hundreds of thousands of indigenous Slavic people. There have also been significant genetic changes during the last 1000 years due to admixture with neighboring tribes and peoples. So the main Hungarian population today is closely related on the genetic level to the Slavs and Germans. See for example Y-Chromosome Analysis of Ancient Hungarian and Two Modern Hungarian-Speaking Populations from the Carpathian Basin in the Annals of Human Genetics link to onlinelibrary.wiley.com

        Slavic dialects have a number of non-Indo-European, Turkic loan words. Yiddish also has abundant Slavic loan words and phonology. link to jewish-languages.org

      • goldmarx
        April 24, 2013, 1:16 pm

        Excuse me, Ellen, but it was Elhaik who brought up the “High German” reference, so you should at least note that he is wrong on that.

      • goldmarx
        April 24, 2013, 2:53 pm

        But where are the Turkic loan words in Yiddish? Not Slavic, but Turkic?(slipping ‘Slavic’ into the mix doesn’t make them interchangeable) And how many of them are there – enough to be numerically significant?

        Where are the records kept by the Khazars themselves of their alleged trek to, say, Poland?

        Elhaik’s easily provable ignorance of the history of Yiddish (and his undocumented allegations against others in the field of genetics) obviously casts serious doubt on his credibility.

      • Shingo
        April 25, 2013, 3:51 am

        Where are the records kept by the Khazars themselves of their alleged trek to, say, Poland?

        The same place the records kept by the Hebrews themselves of their alleged trek to, say, Europe.

        Elhaik’s easily provable ignorance of the history of Yiddish

        As is you easily provable ignorance of the history of Germany.

      • Hostage
        April 25, 2013, 10:04 am

        But where are the Turkic loan words in Yiddish? Not Slavic, but Turkic?

        Russian, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Ukrainian, German, and Anglo-Saxons all use migratory Turic loan words. Some were part of the German and Slavic loan words incorporated in the Yiddish language. FYI, I think those languages were already using Hebrew loan words in the medieval era. There is archaeological evidence of Jewish communities in Germany dating back to the first century of the current era. See Cologne mayor: Contrary to claims of anti-Semitism, residents welcome new Jewish history museum link to haaretz.com

        Where are the records kept by the Khazars themselves of their alleged trek to, say, Poland?

        Your question ignores an abundance of Jewish sources on that very subject. The legends of the Mountain Jews (aka Caucasus Jews), Georgian Jews, Armenian Jews, and the Persian Jews record communities of Israelites scattered throughout the region as a result of the Assyrian exile.

        The Jewish Virtual Library has an article which explains the geographical origins and Jewish usage of the term Ashkenazi:

        Armenia has been connected with the biblical Ashkenaz. The Armenians are termed “the Ashkenazi nation” in their literature. According to this tradition, the genealogy in Genesis 10:3 extended to the populations west of the Volga. In Jewish usage Ashkenaz is sometimes equated with Armenia; in addition, it sometimes covers neighboring *Adiabene (Targ. Jer. 51:27), and also Khazaria (David b. Abraham Alfasi, Ali ibn Suleiman; cf. S. Pinsker, Likkutei Kadmoniyyot (1860), 208; S.L. Skoss (ed.), Hebrew-Arabic Dictionary of the Bible of David ben Abraham al-Fasi (1936), 159), the Crimea and the area to the east (Isaac Abrabanel, Commentary to Gen. 10:3), the Saquliba (Saadiah Gaon, Commentary, ibid.), i.e., the territory of the Slavs and neighboring forest tribes, considered by the Arabs dependent of Khazaria, as well as Eastern and Central Europe, and northern Asia (cf. Abraham Farissol, Iggeret Orḥot Olam (Venice, 1587), ch. 3). In other expositions found in rabbinical works, Armenia is linked with *Uz. [the homeland of biblical Job]

        link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org

        You are the one who needs to explain why Jews living in Poland came to call themselves “Ashkenazi Jews”, when that geographical term is associated with Armenia and Khazaria in the Jewish literature. I’m the one who is relying on Jewish folklore about their origins in the Assyrian exile and their migration to Western Europe from the regions where the Khazars and their neighbors lived.

        P.S. I’ve commented before on the fact that there are several theories about the origins of the Khazars, besides the one that they were a Turkic people. A few theories claim they were part of the Assryian exile and had simply adopted the local language. link to mondoweiss.net

      • Hostage
        April 25, 2013, 10:41 am

        Elhaik’s easily provable ignorance of the history of Yiddish (and his undocumented allegations against others in the field of genetics) obviously casts serious doubt on his credibility.

        Correction: The “Abraham’s Children” study itself admitted that Ashkenazi samples had to be completely excluded from one of the key statistical tests because they didn’t conform to the author’s assumptions on genetic sharing, i.e. the population wasn’t as inbred or genetically isolated as he had supposed. The remaining samples from Middle Eastern Jews also ended-up being inconsistent with the author’s key assumptions and findings. They indicated more than a simple split of a single ancestral population. See the comment and quote on that finding here: link to mondoweiss.net

      • Hostage
        April 22, 2013, 1:35 pm

        Shlomo Sand is now on record as stating he believes the PALESTINIANS THEMSELVES are an INVENTED nation!

        All nations are invented. The problems arise when foreign Zionists refused to recognize the legitimate rights of the existing indigenous nation and insisted on a policy of non-assimilation. Jews from elsewhere had no legitimate right to impose themselves on another nation.

      • Obsidian
        April 22, 2013, 2:01 pm

        Huh?
        If all nations are invented than how was there an ‘indigenous nation’ in Palestine ?

      • K Renner
        April 22, 2013, 5:41 pm

        You’d try and say anything if it somehow negated the fact that Palestinians are a real people and more right to their land then those who stole from them, eh?

      • Cliff
        April 22, 2013, 5:46 pm

        People are real.

        Nationalism is man-made.

        Do you know what indigenous means?

        It means most of the people in Palestine, were Palestinian Arabs and they were driven out by European Jews.

      • Hostage
        April 22, 2013, 6:42 pm

        Huh?
        If all nations are invented than how was there an ‘indigenous nation’ in Palestine ?

        It included all of the people who assimilated into the local cultural milieu.

        According to the founding myths (e.g. Deuteronomy 26:5 Exodus 12:38) “Israel” was nothing more than the family of Abram and those outsiders who married into it + “a great mixed multitude” that voluntarily assimilated to them and Yahwehism during their sojourn in Egypt.

      • miriam6
        April 22, 2013, 7:20 pm

        Exactly Obsidian.

        Palestine gets spoken of as though it isn’t a construct though, c’mon now Ellen, as though it’s more real than any other country.

        If it hadn’t have been for the imperialists drawing their infamous line across the Mid East, Palestine would merely have been a province of Greater Syria.

        Of course Israel would not exist either as an nation.

        The middle east would have been a much more stable place built around Egypt and a greater Syria

      • RoHa
        April 22, 2013, 8:51 pm

        “If all nations are invented than how was there an ‘indigenous nation’ in Palestine ?”

        The people were living there. Their ancestors had been living there before the Zionists arrived to take over.

      • Shingo
        April 22, 2013, 9:45 pm

        If all nations are invented than how was there an ‘indigenous nation’ in Palestine ?

        try reading your own link dufus. If the Jewish Nation is real then so was the Palestinian nation.

      • Obsidian
        April 23, 2013, 12:38 pm

        @Hostage

        “It included all of the people who assimilated into the local cultural milieu. ”

        So all the Jews, Christians and Muslims now living in Israel are part of the Israeli Nation?

      • Cliff
        April 23, 2013, 4:43 pm

        They should be, but they aren’t because Israel discriminates against the Palestinian population Obsidian.

        Your skill in superficially responding to Hostage has been duly noted.

      • Hostage
        April 23, 2013, 8:41 pm

        So all the Jews, Christians and Muslims now living in Israel are part of the Israeli Nation?

        Correct. The Jews never had a “right to self-determination” separate from the other inhabitants of the territory of the State of Israel. The fact that your Supreme Court has ruled otherwise and the laws prohibit intermarriage, family reunification, and the right of return is simply an example of apartheid.

      • Ellen
        April 22, 2013, 2:10 pm

        Not to sound too sarcastic…but duh!

        A “Nation” by definition is made up. It is an abstract, not real. There were no Nations as we know them, just a few hundred years ago.

        I guess the UK was the fist expression of a Nation. It had the advantage of being an island.

        There are peoples, cultures, groups, even ruling empires that come and go. But no real nations.

      • ToivoS
        April 22, 2013, 4:36 pm

        miriam wrties: Arthur Koestler’s ridiculed Khazar theory

        That ridiculous theory has just been provided with some sound genetic evidence showing that Ashkenazi Jews have extensive genetic similarity to peoples from the North Caucuses.

      • Obsidian
        April 23, 2013, 12:29 pm

        “That ridiculous theory has just been provided with some sound genetic evidence showing that Ashkenazi Jews have extensive genetic similarity to peoples from the North Caucuses.”

        Well. Not really.

        link to eurogenes.blogspot.co.il

      • Shingo
        April 23, 2013, 4:16 pm

        Well. Not really.

        Yes really.

        You silly blog link is padded with many qualifiers like “I think” and “in my opinion”, so it’s not a credible argument, let alone a definitive one.

      • Cliff
        April 23, 2013, 8:43 pm

        LOL at your Zio blog article citation as a rebuttal.

      • goldmarx
        April 24, 2013, 2:56 pm

        ToivoS: Sorry, but this so-called ‘genetic evidence’ is provided courtesy of someone who can’t get the facts right on Yiddish, the predominant langauge of Ashkenazic Jewry (pre-Holocaust) with no Turkic roots or influence.

      • Shingo
        April 25, 2013, 3:53 am

        Sorry, but this so-called ‘genetic evidence’ is provided courtesy of someone who can’t get the facts right on Yiddish

        Sorry, but someone who can’t get their facts right on the fact that Yiddish, like many Germany dialects was a never ever considered to be High German, is in no position to decide who is getting their facts right.

      • MRW
        April 22, 2013, 5:32 pm

        Miriam is back, I see, with her great grasp of history and research.

        Mr Sand’s latest attention grabbing stunt ( other than digging up Arthur Koestler’s ridiculed Khazar theory) . . . . Koestler was ridiculed as a pretentious phoney for both his “Thirteenth Tribe eccentricities and his beliefs in the Paranormal by satirical magazine Private Eye when it was edited by Richard Ingrams.

        Koestler was never ridiculed. A single editor is to be believed over Koestler’s oeuvre?

        Read:
        link to africaspeaks.com
        Also here:
        link to haruth.com

        The article ends:

        Serious scholarship into the Khazars only began in the 19th century, and throughout the 20th century many important discoveries were made. In modern Israel, there is considerable interest in the grand history of the Khazar Jewish people. Several Israeli novels include Khazarian themes and characters. In 1997 the Israeli journalist Ehud Ya’ari broadcast a fascinating 3-part documentary on the Khazars entitled Memlekhet ha-Kuzarim. Israeli media such as The Jerusalem Report and The Jerusalem Post have covered Khazarian history from time to time. In 1999 the first international Khazar Symposium was held in Jerusalem, bringing together many of the brightest scholars in modern Khazar studies from Russia, the United States, and Israel.

      • miriam6
        April 23, 2013, 11:06 am

        I still maintain Arthur Koestler was a great big kook.

        He wrote one great novel.

        He believed in the oh- so-spooky- Paranormal !

        A great signifier of Kook- dom par excellence and unreliable research.

        The extent to which the Khazars converted to Judaism has never been established.

        It is thought possible that it was only the elite who converted.

        In any case, once their flirtation with Judaism was over they became largely MUSLIM.

        They did not run off en masse to build shetls in Poland.

        They mostly stayed were they were ALREADY and became Muslims.

        As are most folks in the Caucasus today.

        Other than the Armenians/Georgians.

        It’s so funny how all you ardent anti-Zionists believe so absolutely that the Khazars hung on to their Jewish identity when all around them including their elite were converting to Islam — but you believe the EXACT OPPOSITE took place in ancient Palestine.

        BTW Jews-Khazars , other than interviews with the attention seeking Mr Sand ,—– it’s really rarely mentioned of out here in the polite ,intelligent, educated, society I inhabit .

        Most frequent mention of the Khazars is made on extreme, anti-Zionist sites- EXTREME jihadi type pro Muslim sites or lastly the straight out Neo-Nazi-Sites.

        Plus folks like you enjoy dismissing Zionism as no more than a cult, so it oughtn’t to surprise you they are interested in it there in Israel.

      • American
        April 23, 2013, 1:05 pm

        @ miriam6

        Most anti zionist, the majority of whom I suspect are non Jewish, have no interest in Khazars and etc., where Jews came from and all the other identity obsessions and so forth.
        We are only interested in what the zio cult is actually doing present day.
        If it was up to me I’d outlaw all the dregging up of ancient Jewish this and that in I/P discussion because bottom line it doesn’t matter if Israel is Jewish or Buddhist…it is what it is….. a criminal state.
        And no, that other states may be criminal doesnt lessen that.
        And neither does the holocaust…the holocaust actually makes what Israel does seem worse.

      • Hostage
        April 23, 2013, 1:20 pm

        It’s so funny how all you ardent anti-Zionists believe so absolutely that the Khazars hung on to their Jewish identity when all around them including their elite were converting to Islam — but you believe the EXACT OPPOSITE took place in ancient Palestine.

        According to Jewish myths and legends the exiles from the Northern Kingdom of Israel were resettled in the same regions where the Khazars, Armenians, and Georgians lived. Not to mention the fact that the descendants of Noah supposedly migrated from there to the Land of Canaan.

        It’s hilarious to watch Zionists fund phony research based upon the bogus notion that so-called “Jewishness” has a biological basis. If it does, a Muslim Khazar would certainly be just as “Jewish” as any Askenazim, if not more so.

      • MRW
        April 23, 2013, 1:21 pm

        Miriam,

        The extent to which the Khazars converted to Judaism has never been established. It is thought possible that it was only the elite who converted. . . . BTW Jews-Khazars , other than interviews with the attention seeking Mr Sand ,—– it’s really rarely mentioned of out here in the polite ,intelligent, educated, society I inhabit .

        Where might that be? From Arutz Sheva:

        Found: Ancient Capital of ‘Jewish’ Khazar Kingdom
        By Ze’ev Ben-Yechiel

        […]”This is a hugely important discovery,” said the leader of the Russian expedition, Dmitry Vasilyev, in a report by the French agency AFP. Vasilyev, from Astrakhan State University, made the comments after returning from the excavation site, located near the Russian village of Samosdelka just north of the Caspian Sea. The location of the site corresponds roughly to the area in which historians believe the empire may have existed.
        […]
        The Jewish University in Moscow and the Russian Jewish Congress helped finance the excavations, which took place during the summer in various locations throughout the region in which the discovery was made. The project, overseen by a number of university professors, included some 50 students who assisted in the digs.

        link to israelnationalnews.com

        And…

        Discovery of Khazar capital unearths more about Ashkenazi Jews”
        By MANSUR MIROVALEV, Associated Press Writer Sat Sep 20, 2:13 PM ET

        […] The Khazars succeeded in holding off the Arabs, but a young, expanding Russian state vanquished the Khazar empire in the late 10th century. Medieval Russian epic poems mention Russian warriors fighting the “Jewish Giant.”

        “In many ways, Russia is a successor of the Khazar state,” Vasilyev said.

        He said his dig revealed traces of a large fire that was probably caused by the Russian conquest. He said Itil was rebuilt following the fall of the Khazar empire, when ethnic Khazars were slowly assimilated by Turkic-speaking tribes, Tatars and Mongols, who inhabited the city until it was flooded by the rising Caspian Sea around the 14th century.

        The study of the Khazar empire was discouraged in the Soviet Union. The dictator Josef Stalin, in particular, detested the idea that a Jewish empire had come before Russia’s own. He ordered references to Khazar history removed from textbooks because they “disproved his theory of Russian statehood,” Satanovsky said.

        link to dianarn.wordpress.com

      • Light
        April 23, 2013, 2:15 pm

        Miriam6 wrote

        Most frequent mention of the Khazars is made on extreme, anti-Zionist sites- EXTREME jihadi type pro Muslim sites or lastly the straight out Neo-Nazi-Sites.

        Are you referring to this sites like this one?

        link to arxiv.org
        link to eelhaik.aravindachakravartilab.org

      • Hostage
        April 23, 2013, 4:23 pm

        BTW Jews-Khazars , other than interviews with the attention seeking Mr Sand ,—– it’s really rarely mentioned of out here in the polite ,intelligent, educated, society I inhabit .

        I’ve commented on numerous occasions that most studies are examples of circular reasoning that are not based upon evidence obtained from ancient Khazar DNA.

        That sort of evidence is only just now being studied in regard to the ancient population of Europe: See “Making of Europe unlocked by DNA” and the cautionary warnings, like:

        The genetic markers of this first pan-European culture, which was clearly very successful, were then suddenly replaced around 4,500 years ago, and we don’t know why” — Prof Alan Cooper University of Adelaide

        Dr Spencer Wells, director of the Genographic Project, which was behind the study, commented: “Studies such as this on ancient remains serve as a valuable adjunct to the work we are doing with modern populations in the Genographic Project.

        “While the DNA of people alive today can reveal the end result of their ancestors’ ancient movements, to really understand the dynamics of how modern genetic patterns were created we need to study ancient material as well.

        link to bbc.co.uk

        Obsessing over Khazar DNA simply relocates the mystery of the origins of these so-called “Jewish” markers in their society. The fact that the Khazars spoke a Turkic language does not establish that they had Turkic origins. Whatever the real genetic origins of the Khazars happened to be, they remain unknown, even at this late date.

        What we do know is that Ashkenazim do not exhibit the degree of inbreeding (identity by descent) that Zionist hasbara would suggest. There is a large non-Middle Eastern (gentile) contribution in so-called “Jewish” DNA.

      • Shingo
        April 23, 2013, 4:32 pm

        I still maintain Arthur Koestler was a great big kook.

        So what miriam? You’ve demonstrated little reason for anyone to take you seriously.

        He believed in the oh- so-spooky- Paranormal !

        The Torah is filled with that stuff, and many Jews believe it.

        The extent to which the Khazars converted to Judaism has never been established.

        That hasn’t stopped Zionist funding kook research to try and play it down or minimize it.

        It is thought possible that it was only the elite who converted.

        But never established right?

        They mostly stayed were they were ALREADY and became Muslims.

        And now Israel is slaughtering them and stealing their land to punish them for it.

        it’s really rarely mentioned of out here in the polite ,intelligent, educated, society I inhabit .

        Nor is the Nakba or ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, not to mention the countless war crimes, flase flag operations and violations of international law by Israel, I take it.

      • miriam6
        April 25, 2013, 8:18 am

        How am I supposed to take YOU seriously Shingo?

        Shlomo Sand is now on record as stating he believes the PALESTINIANS THEMSELVES are an INVENTED nation!
        You said:

        ” False. He said that Zionism created 2 people, the Palestinian people and the Israeli people.

        You have it wrong not me.

        Both INVENTED and CREATED MEANS the SAME THING;
        a Palestinian people /nation and a Israeli people/ nation.

        He ( Koestler) believed in the oh- so-spooky- Paranormal

        “The Torah is filled with that stuff, and many Jews believe it.”
        So your first knee-jerk response is to pillory Judaism.

        Certainly, Judaism has supernatural elements to it.
        Then again so does Islam.

        Would you care to ridicule the MUSLIMS who believe the Prophet Muhammad’s CORPSE was observed by eye-witnesses to have physically and LITERALLY ascended to heaven ?

        You are full of double standards
        .
        The use of supernatural elements have a METAPHORICAL meaning.
        To compare Judaism and other religions to the sort of Paranormal nonsense Koestler was interested in is to trivialise religion.
        Religious texts and philosophy is all about the human soul and the meaning of life and how to live it.
        It is NOT paranormal ,table-rapping, Ouija board mumbo-jumbo.
        *******************************************

        They mostly stayed were they were ALREADY and became Muslims.
        “And now Israel is slaughtering them and stealing their land to punish them for it.”
        WHAT ?!
        You have taken the relevant quote completely out of context.

        I said : “The extent to which the Khazars converted to Judaism has never been established.
        It is thought possible that it was only the elite who converted.
        In any case, once their flirtation with Judaism was over they became largely MUSLIM.
        They did not run off en masse to build shetls in Poland.
        They mostly stayed were they were ALREADY and became Muslims. :”

        I was making a point about Ashkenazi ancestry in POLAND.
        Nothing to do with Palestinians.
        Not everything revolves around the Palestinians.
        *******************************************

        it’s really rarely mentioned of out here in the polite ,intelligent, educated, society I inhabit .

        YOU said:
        “Nor is the Nakba or ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, not to mention the countless war crimes, flase flag operations and violations of international law by Israel, I take it.”

        This above paragraph from you constitutes A COMPLETE UNTRUTH.
        What false flag operations are you referring to?
        You are clearly in the ” American Paranoid” scheme of political matters.
        There is PLENTY of discussion about the Israel/Palestine conflict in the mainstream media and society.

        LOTS OF IT.

        It is simply your PARANOID delusion that says it is never spoken of or discussed in society today and the media.

        On the contrary, Israel- bashing has never been more fashionable.
        “Anti-Zionist Chic ” – one could call it.

        However, despite the media’s interest in the subject you mention, that fact that most people remain uninterested in the Palestinians leads you to claim there is a conspiracy of silence.
        **********************************

      • Shingo
        April 22, 2013, 9:54 pm

        Shlomo Sand is now on record as stating he believes the PALESTINIANS THEMSELVES are an INVENTED nation!

        False. He said that Zionism created 2 people, the Palestinian people and the Israeli people.

        Well ,whatever, but evidently it’s all been a nice little earner for Mr Sand.

        Yes, his book was a best seller in Israel of all places.

        other than digging up Arthur Koestler’s ridiculed Khazar theory

        Think again.
        link to ynetnews.com

        You trolls need to update your talking points.

    • American
      April 22, 2013, 2:46 pm

      link to guardian.co.uk

      Shomo Sands has done it again …lol

      ”The Invention of the Land of Israel”

      ”In this second volume of his trilogy of Jewish studies, Sand explores how the ‘Land of Israel’ was invented, and debunks popular nationalist mythology –
      Much of what Shlomo Sand reveals is known to specialists. His achievement consists in debunking a nationalist mythology which holds sway in large sections of popular opinion. It also normalises Jews, since it challenges the belief in exceptionalism.”’

    • Hostage
      April 22, 2013, 7:09 pm

      But trying to make an analogy between wrongdoings of a political party (Hamas) with ethnicity (Jews) smells of racism, or in this case of anti-Semitism.

      Do I hear Shlomo Zand’s supporters that Jews are not a nation (or rather an invented nation)? So Jews are not a “nation”? If so, please reconcile that with the main thrust of this article.

      You are erecting yet another feeble straw man. The governments of Israel and the United States have long-since recognized that Gaza is under the control of Hamas. They refer to it as the de facto government or “the de facto administration of the Gaza Strip”. See for example:
      * link to mfa.gov.il
      * link to travel.state.gov

      The State of Israel appointed itself the responsibility for prosecuting crimes committed elsewhere against “the Jews” before the state came into existence. It still has “The Nazis and Nazi Collaborators (Punishment) Law”, 5710-1950 on its books. In so far as individuals like Rudolf Kastner or Meir Tobianski are concerned, the Israelis are no more civilized than Hamas in their dealings with suspected collaborators.

    • Shingo
      April 22, 2013, 9:56 pm

      But trying to make an analogy between wrongdoings of a political party (Hamas) with ethnicity (Jews) smells of racism, or in this case of anti-Semitism.

      Who is trying to do that?

  15. MK_Ultra
    April 21, 2013, 9:49 am

    Gaza is today’s Warsaw Ghetto.

  16. Annie Robbins
    April 22, 2013, 5:25 pm

    file this under ‘responding to reader complaint’. the reader addresses the link to ynet where the hamas official condemns the execution/motorcycle dragging of six people accused of being Israel collaborators and then notes:

    I have yet to find an article written on
    > Mondoweiss echoing his condemnation. Weird, no?

    so let me state categorically i do not support capital punishment as a matter of principle. and i really don’t support inhumane executions. also as a matter of principle i do not generally do condemnations on demand which is not something that will change today over this request. however, unequivocally i reject this form of punishment no matter who does it. it is gross and inhumane.

  17. ToivoS
    April 24, 2013, 4:25 am

    Much of this thread has been devoted to the topic that the Ashkenazi Jews are primarily descended from a people that lived East of the Volga River and North of the Caspian Sea, basically the Khazars.

    Koestler has been under attack for making that suggestion. Shlomo Sand also. What has happened in the last few years is that there has been a lot of comparative genomic evidence published that shows fairly clearly that Ashkenazi Jews do in fact seem more closely related to people from the North Caucasian part of the world than they do to people from the Eastern Mediterranean. This without doubt supports the hypothesis that what we know as Ashkenazie Jews immigrated to Europe from Central Asia and may very well be descended from the Khazars.

    This fact is causing our local Zionist one real panic attack. Not just our locals but some of their brethren throughout the net. The recent genetic evidence seems quite convincing. Saying this does not deny that there were not migrations of people from the Eastern Mediterranean into the Caucasus 1 or 2 thousand years ago. The genetic evidence is consistent with such migrations. The central fact is that eastern European Jews as well as those from Germany made their way to Europe through Central Asia.

    The genetic evidence is becoming over whelming. I have one small quibble with the way the debate has been posed. In past decades we have cited “modern genetic evidence”. In the 1990s we have read that “modern genetic evidence” has shown that the Cohens of Eastern Europe were the same as the Cohens of Jerusalem thereby showing some direct migration from Israel to Europe after the Roman conquest. These more recent studies do not support this hypothesis at all. These more recent studies are based on what is called haplotype mapping. I notice in the many discussions of this problem that the term “haplotype” is not mentioned. I do not want to sound overly picky, but in these debates I notice people relying on those studies from the 1990s and referring to them as modern genetic mapping. Sorry hasbarists, but those studies are no longer modern. If you spent some time looking at the computational problems involved in “haplotype mapping” you would realize that no conclusions could be drawn from those studies in the 1990s on Cohen Y chromosomes. I sort of know all of this stuff and I think it would help if we all could accept the new term “haplotype mapping”

    Having said all this I have to agree with American, this is all a bunch of bull shit — people on this planet are a single race and our rules should based on principles independent of our genotypes.

  18. seafoid
    April 24, 2013, 8:00 am

    link to en.wikipedia.org

    “Historically, Samaritans were a large community—up to more than a million in late Roman times, but were then gradually reduced to several tens of thousands a few centuries ago—their unprecedented demographic shrinkage has been a result of various historical events, including, most notably, the bloody suppression of the Third Samaritan Revolt (529 CE) against the Byzantine Christian rulers, and mass conversion to Islam in the Early Muslim period of Palestine.[10][11]”

    I don’t how the Ashkenazim fit into this history. If anything it is the Palestinians who are the Semites…

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