Updated: al-Aqsa Foundation discovers mass graves of Palestinians killed during the Nakba in Jaffa

Israel/Palestine
on 134 Comments
 
ca918a06 3a79 460b ba17 6511de4cf9d0
JAFFA, Israel. During a restoration project at the historic Al-Kazakhana cemetery workers discovered “nozzles” leading to the mass graves with hundreds of skeletons of Palestinians killed during the Nakba and 1936 uprising.

(Update below)

During a restoration project repairing gravesites which had collapsed due to natural conditions at the Al-Kazakhana cemetery in Jaffa, workers for the al-Aqsa Foundation for Endowment and Heritage, an NGO based in the city of Umm al-Fahm, discovered the existence of six mass graves with hundreds of skeletons of Palestinians who perished during the Nakba in 1948 and the uprising in 1936.

The al-Aqsa Foundation issued a report on Wednesday (Arabic) titled Jaffa mass graves for victims of the Nakba and the revolution of 1936. The mass graves support documented oral histories collected from Palestinians who lived through the Nakba. Historians have documented testimonies recounting scenes of massacres in Jaffa and the surrounding area from eyewitness who saw piles of bodies scattered thoughout neighborhoods of Jaffa.

Al Akhbar:

“During [the foundation’s] repair and maintenance work on the [Kazkhana] cemetery, we discovered nozzles to dig into the ground where we found the mass graves…including hundreds of skeletons and human remains of rebels, martyrs and civilians who perished during the Nakba,” head of the Islamic Movement in Jaffa, Sheikh Mohammed Najem, said in the report.

The foundation has proved the remains date back to the victims killed in the 1948 war, whether from bombings and shelling of residential neighborhoods or snipers located around the city, the report said.

“The Kazkhana cemetery has exposed the historical facts that Israel has tried to hide and erase for over 65 years relating to the massacres committed by Zionist gangs during the 1948 Palestinian Nakba,” it read.

“These mass graves have banished all doubts of the certainty of oral histories collected by historians of people who lived through the Nakba of 1948 and parts of the war documenting massacres in Jaffa and its suburbs,” the report added.

Update: Agence France-Presse – (AFP) report includes the recollection of ‘hasty burials’ in the final months of fighting in ’48:

Jaffa fisherman Atar Zeinab, 80, says that as a teenager during the final months of fighting in 1948 he helped to collect the Arab dead in the area south of Jaffa and bring them for hasty burial in the cemetery, the area’s main graveyard.

“I carried to the cemetery 60 bodies during a period of three or four months,” he told AFP. “We used to find the people in the street and most of the time we didn’t know who they were.”

He said that the danger of being hit by flying bullets or grenade fragments was such that bodies were dumped one on top of the other in existing family crypts in the cemetery, contrary to Muslim custom.

“We carried them early in the morning or in the night,” he added. “We put women, children and men in the same place… nobody prayed for these people.

mass graves jaffa
A picture by the al-Aqsa Foundation shows skeletons buried in a mass grave
About Annie Robbins

Annie Robbins is Editor at Large for Mondoweiss, a mother, a human rights activist and a ceramic artist. She lives in the SF bay area. Follow her on Twitter @anniefofani

Other posts by .


Posted In:

134 Responses

  1. Kate
    May 31, 2013, 3:28 pm

    Annie, I added this comment to my Today in Palestine list for 28 May which included a Middle East Monitor report on this find, but that was days ago so most people won’t have seen it:

    Early source for the Jaffa mass grave story:
    this article (Arabic) in the Lebanese As-Safir newspaper [28 May]:
    link to assafir.com
    See Al-Monitor’s English translation [29 May]:
    link to al-monitor.com
    (Many thanks to As‘ad AbuKhalil)

    Team Palestina stated that their source for these photos:
    link to facebook.com
    was the Al-Aqsa Foundation.

    I see that a short version of the story has today, miraculously, made the mainstream media (AFP):
    link to uk.news.yahoo.com

    • Annie Robbins
      June 1, 2013, 12:18 am

      thank you kate. you were on this from the get go. when i first read about it i googled for more news and saw your just published list..right here. thanks for being so on top of it.

      • ToivoS
        June 1, 2013, 1:46 am

        also annie, good call on your part to give this story the prominence it deserves. The reactions are revealing.

      • Daniel Rich
        June 2, 2013, 12:05 am

        @ ToivoS,

        Q: The reactions are revealing.

        R: What do they reveal?

  2. mondonut
    May 31, 2013, 3:43 pm

    Of course the truth is that currently there is no evidence of who killed these people and little evidence of how they died.

    • George Smith
      May 31, 2013, 4:46 pm

      “were killed” is to “died” as “were expelled” is to “left.”

    • seafoid
      May 31, 2013, 5:04 pm

      They probably all died in syria and then moved to israel to find work in the cemetery. I think I read it in in time immemorial by Peters. The mass grave is also antisemitic.

    • Shingo
      May 31, 2013, 5:45 pm

      Of course the truth is that currently there is no evidence of who killed these people and little evidence of how they died.

      Of course the truth is that the Zionist militias killed thousands of Palestinians in 1948, so it’s pretty obvious who was responsible.

    • Woody Tanaka
      May 31, 2013, 5:54 pm

      Yeah and Holocaust deniers said the same thing about the dead Jews of Europe. You are just like them, Nakba denier.

    • lysias
      May 31, 2013, 6:54 pm

      Sure there’s evidence. Just read the contemporary accounts cited by Ilan Pappe in The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. There’s quite a bit in that book about what happened in Jaffa.

    • W.Jones
      May 31, 2013, 9:55 pm

      Would you like to write more about that?

    • talknic
      June 1, 2013, 12:06 am
      • Annie Robbins
        June 1, 2013, 12:17 am

        that’s the same article as the update talknic. kate linked to it too. i think the story has …. legs.

      • CloakAndDagger
        June 1, 2013, 1:15 am

        @ annie

        There are only 5 comments to that article at this time. I predict that this will get scant coverage in the media and will soon disappear into the “memri” hole.

      • Annie Robbins
        June 1, 2013, 8:42 am

        it may get scant coverage in the msm C&D but this won’t be disappearing, ever.

        plus, Al-Mashhad interviewed project leader Haji Mohammad AlAshqar. He said the restoration work at Al-Kazakhana cemetery, which began years ago, was still only partially restored. Previously, the graves in the cemetery were completely covered with “weeds and thorns“….

        “The number of graves in the cemetery is more than 4,000 and we have so far restored more than 400 graves and are still continuing the restoration of all the graves in the hope of finishing mid-2014″

        iow, this could be only the tip of the iceberg.

      • RoHa
        June 1, 2013, 10:23 pm

        “There are only 5 comments to that article at this time. I predict that this will get scant coverage in the media and will soon disappear into the “memri” hole.”

        The Daily Mail article (thanks, MRW) has lots of comments. Click on “Best Rated” and you will se a lot of anti-Israel sentiment.

        link to dailymail.co.uk

    • CloakAndDagger
      June 1, 2013, 1:10 am

      @ mondonut

      Of course the truth is that currently there is no evidence of who killed these people and little evidence of how they died.

      My bet is on an attack by martians who forced them to dig their own grave and then jump in to be buried.

      If new evidence materializes to negate the martian hypothesis, I am betting on a conspiracy whereby dead palestinians were imported from the diaspora and buried here to defame the Israelis.

      …excuse the gallow’s humor. There is little of mirth to be found in all of this.

  3. just
    May 31, 2013, 3:47 pm

    How will the Zionists spin this? They scream “holocaust” ( a horrible time and crime against many people– not only Jewish folk) and “anti- semite” regularly, yet deny the Nakba.

    This is proof of the massacre of the indigenous people! How will they wriggle out of this?

    • MHughes976
      May 31, 2013, 4:22 pm

      One faction massacred by another – those people can’t ever trust each other; look at Libya. An explosion by munitions intended for a nefarious purpose? An element of suicide – from the culture that produced the suicide bomb – after some wicked plan had gone wrong? At any rate, no witnesses, no records, could be anything. We should forget these things and move on. Pales in comparison with what happens elsewhere, please explain your horrible double standards. Editorials in every major western newspaper will counsel caution, lengthy enquiries resulting in fifteen volumes of unreadable evidence.
      Wriggling is a basic human talent.

    • W.Jones
      May 31, 2013, 9:47 pm

      “This is proof of the massacre of the indigenous people! How will they wriggle out of this?”

      Look no further than the preceding post, dated “May 31, 2013 at 3:43 pm”
      They beat you to it.

    • Qualtrough
      May 31, 2013, 10:22 pm

      Just—You need look no further than the comment preceding yours for one answer to your question.

  4. eljay
    May 31, 2013, 4:08 pm

    >> How will the Zionists spin this? They scream “holocaust” … and “anti- semite” regularly, yet deny the Nakba. This is proof of the massacre of the indigenous people! How will they wriggle out of this?

    My guess is they will scream “[Remember the] Holocaust!”™ and “anti-Semite!”

    It’s worked for them so far – why would they mess with a successful formula?

    • seafoid
      May 31, 2013, 5:07 pm

      Yad va shem will ignore them, There are tragic massacres and entirely logical and unavoidable massacres.

    • Shingo
      May 31, 2013, 5:46 pm

      My guess is they will scream “[Remember the] Holocaust!”™ and “anti-Semite!”

      Or:

      1. They will insist that these were planted there to make Israel look bad
      2. They will insist these were all honor killings by Hamas

      • quirx
        June 2, 2013, 4:18 pm

        The ‘bots are out in full unified force on this one, everywhere it is being published – and you are correct about how they are trying to spin it. But even worse than your ideas, they are actually claiming that the bones are of Jews who were murdered by ‘crazy bloodthirsty Arabs’ (of course) in the ‘War of independence’ or even before that. But of course they cannot explain why Jews would be buried in a Muslim graveyard!

        It’s so very bizarre and troubling, but even when it is shown about how the gentlemen quoted that he actually put Palestinian Arabs in the graves they point, oh so disingenuously and contemptibly to:

        1) See how Arabs have no respect for the dead? They are animals!
        2) The bodies were taken over a period of months, so clearly, it wasn’t Jewish terrorists who killed them
        AND
        3) even if they were Arabs ,which is doubtful, (since apparently only Jews die?) it was probably the British who killed them

        and of course the holocaust…

        but when none of those are really working well on the other commenters, so then it’s the deflect attention bit
        “what about _insert any area here_?” with their oh-so-righteous indignation (!).

        Fortunately, most people aren’t buying what they are selling anymore (outside of their own echo chambers) and it is showing. The ‘bots are looking increasingly desperate, forceful, shrill and childish. Has anyone else noticed this?

  5. just
    May 31, 2013, 4:20 pm

    And there you have it! mondonut begins the denial………..as I wrote 5/29 wrt to this horrific find reported by Kate:

    “Just waiting for the official Israeli denial of this horrific discovery.

    They’ll probably allege that this was a mass suicide and that the indigenous Palestinians managed to bury themselves prior to expiring……”

    • mondonut
      May 31, 2013, 4:51 pm

      just says: And there you have it! mondonut begins the denial………..
      ====================================================
      Feel free to respond with actual facts instead of hyperbole.

      Is there evidence of how they died or who killed them? Why would Jews or Israelis bury the dead according to Muslim traditions? How are you and your friends able to determine they died from bombings and shelling of residential neighborhoods or snipers located around the city?

      • Annie Robbins
        June 1, 2013, 12:23 am

        Why would Jews or Israelis bury the dead according to Muslim traditions?

        have you even read the article? thus far, no one claimed jews buried them.

        How are you and your friends able to determine they died from bombings and shelling of residential neighborhoods or snipers located around the city?

        what difference does it make? i think we can assume they didn’t commit suicide.

      • Shingo
        June 1, 2013, 1:40 am

        Is there evidence of how they died or who killed them?

        Yes, it’s called the Nakba. If there had been a mass graves of Jews found in Poland, you wouldn’t be in such denial.

      • Inanna
        June 1, 2013, 6:43 am

        Go to the Team Palestina facebook page. In the first of 12 photos, you’ll see a hill of bones. There’s a skull up and left of center that has a whole through the forehead. That’s called a fact and we can make a deduction that it was caused by a bullet.

      • Nation7697
        June 1, 2013, 8:35 am

        If its a fact…you dont need to make a deduction. No one is denying those arent bones of dead people. The question is who are the people, how did they die, and who killed them.

        Finding a mass grave of bodies doesnt prove anything other than you have found a mass grave of bodies.

        Wheres the proof? Wheres the facts? Youre going to use as your proof…the first of 12 pictures (or even all 12) on a facebook page of an anti-Israel NGO?

        Youre as bad as robbins

      • Annie Robbins
        June 1, 2013, 9:03 am

        this photo here?

        this reminds me of In the cover of darkness:

        I’m writing to share an alarming development regarding the Mamilla Cemetery in Jerusalem. This past weekend, only weeks after a Jerusalem Municipal planning committee granted final permission for construction of the Simon Wiesenthal Center’s so-called “Museum of Tolerance” atop the oldest Muslim cemetery in Jerusalem, Israeli bulldozers entered the part of the ancient Mamilla Cemetery that remained intact to destroy and dispose of nearly 100 grave markers, both ancient and renovated. The bulldozers worked under the cover of night (from 11pm to 1am on June 25-26, 2011), and retreated hastily when their operators realized that they were being filmed by local media and activists, as can be seen in the coverage broadcast by Al-Arabiya and Al-Jazeera

        history erased overnight.

      • Shingo
        June 1, 2013, 2:20 pm

        The question is who are the people, how did they die, and who killed them.

        How they died and who killed them comes down to 2 possibilities. Either the Zioniost militias killed them, or the British, acting as agents for the Zionist leadership did.

        Either way, they were murdered.

        Finding a mass grave of bodies doesnt prove anything other than you have found a mass grave of bodies.

        And mass graves dating back to a conflict, in the absence fo any other cause of mass deaths, proves that those those remains as the victims of the conflict. Some desperate hasbarats are trying to suggest there was a plague, but such a plague between 1936 and 1948 would be well documented.

        You’re as bad as Joan Peters.

      • mondonut
        June 1, 2013, 5:29 pm

        Shingo says: How they died and who killed them comes down to 2 possibilities. Either the Zioniost militias killed them, or the British, acting as agents for the Zionist leadership did.
        ==============================================
        So in addition to controlling Congress and Hollywood the Zionists also controlled the British during the Mandate era? And during the 12+ year period the story references no Arabs died of natural causes, no Arabs committed suicide, no Arabs were murdered by other Arabs?

      • Shingo
        June 1, 2013, 8:24 pm

        So in addition to controlling Congress and Hollywood the Zionists also controlled the British during the Mandate era?

        Are you going to pretend that this is a controversial argument? First of, Balfour and Lloyd George are both on the record as boasting they were Zionists.

        In response to the Arab Revolt, during which 100 British Servicemen were killed, the British killed 6,000 Arabs and instituted collective punishment on the form of home demolitions.

        In return for the more than 500 terrorist attacks by Zionist Jews over the last 8 years of the British Mandate, resulting in 169 dead British Servicemen, Churchill merely had this to say;

        “They have shocked the world. They have affected strongly people like me, who in the past, have been consistent friends of the Jews and constant architects of their future. However, the British refrain from a violent response to acts of Zionist terrorism, even though the were seventyfive thousand British soldiers in Palestine”

        And during the 12+ year period the story references no Arabs died of natural causes, no Arabs committed suicide, no Arabs were murdered by other Arabs?

        They would have all bee buried in separate graves – so nice try, but fail.

      • Daniel Rich
        June 2, 2013, 12:08 am

        @ Mondonut,

        “Jaffa fisherman Atar Zeinab, 80, says that as a teenager during the final months of fighting in 1948 he helped to collect the Arab dead in the area south of Jaffa and bring them for hasty burial in the cemetery, the area’s main graveyard.

        “I carried to the cemetery 60 bodies during a period of three or four months,” he told AFP. “We used to find the people in the street and most of the time we didn’t know who they were.”

        He said that the danger of being hit by flying bullets or grenade fragments was such that bodies were dumped one on top of the other in existing family crypts in the cemetery, contrary to Muslim custom.

        “We carried them early in the morning or in the night,” he added. “We put women, children and men in the same place… nobody prayed for these people.”

      • Inanna
        June 3, 2013, 12:17 am

        I’m honored to be ‘as bad as robbins’.

        But you are being deliberately obtuse in the name of hasbara. In the words of one of my favorite Arab women:

        “Scheme all you want and strive all you may. Your crowd is but a dispersion and your days are but numbers”.

      • mondonut
        June 3, 2013, 1:29 am

        Shingo says: They would have all bee buried in separate graves – so nice try, but fail.
        ===========================================
        All evidence to the contrary.

      • Shingo
        June 3, 2013, 2:05 am

        All evidence to the contrary.

        There is no evidence to the contrary.

        hasbara fail

    • bilal a
      May 31, 2013, 5:31 pm

      This is a small number of remains, nothing compared to the remains of millions who were systematically disposed of during WW2, there graves cavernous, but yet, unfound.

      • Shingo
        June 1, 2013, 12:37 am

        This is a small number of remains, nothing compared to the remains of millions who were systematically disposed of during WW2, there graves cavernous, but yet, unfound.

        Yeah no Jews in that grave so no biggie.

        Hey Bilal, I suppose Hebron 1929 wasn’t a massacre either, you know, compared to the millions who were systematically disposed of during WW2

    • a blah chick
      May 31, 2013, 7:31 pm

      No, no, it was done by Arabs DRESSED as Israeli troops in an attempt to make the Jews look bad.

      I seem to recall a crazy lady asserting this right after the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

  6. BrianEsker
    May 31, 2013, 8:13 pm

    I’m really surprised that the editors even ALLOWED Mondonut’s mildly dissenting opinion. The facts so far only show a piles of bones that were buried in an Islamic manner. There has been no confirmation or specific evidence to indicate how they got there. Between 1936-39 there was a bloody Arab revolt in the area that was put down by the British, resulting in lots of violent fatalities. So without evidence it’s premature, or simply tainted journalism to blame the all these mass graves on the Jews without evidence. But then again, who here needs evidence to blood libel the Joos?

    • Annie Robbins
      June 1, 2013, 12:29 am

      So without evidence it’s premature, or simply tainted journalism

      the evidence is in the bones. there’s this little thing called science. it’s not really that difficult to detect how old bones are nowadays.

      to blame the all these mass graves on the Jews

      so how do you think those people died?

      blood libel the Joos?

      grow up. nakba denial is a banning offense here. i don’t have the power to ban you but i can complain, as can any person; reader, commenter, anyone. and yes, you can take that as a warning.

      • ToivoS
        June 1, 2013, 1:25 am

        annie, please do not ban these nakba denial comments here. They are extremely instructive about the lengths that the Israelis will go to deny the obvious. The parallel to holocaust denial is something that we should all see — it is telling us something about what is going on in the minds of Israel’s defenders.

        I realize it is a difficult call but for now let them come out and spew their hatred for all of us to observe. It is revealing something that needs to be revealed.

      • seafoid
        June 1, 2013, 1:47 am

        ‘Blame it all on the jews’. That line always cracks me up when they use it re 1948. And ‘blood libel’. Oh dear.

        I suppose Jaffa was one of the few places they were going to find anything since it was a population centre in 1948, it is not controlled by the JNF and the waqf have the freedom to do their own thing.

        Another plank of hasbara collapses.

    • talknic
      June 1, 2013, 4:06 am

      BrianEsker

      “The facts so far only show a piles of bones that were buried in an Islamic manner”

      First hand account link to uk.news.yahoo.com

      “There has been no confirmation or specific evidence to indicate how they got there”

      First hand account link to uk.news.yahoo.com

      • BrianEsker
        June 1, 2013, 4:05 pm

        OK, so this newly offered yahoo:UK news story quotes a supposed eyewitness, suggesting that at least SOME of the people who were buried there were victims or combatants in the 1948-49 conflict. But nothing more specific than that.

        Even so it’s really misleading and fraudulent to declare in the story headline that ALL were “Victims of the (so-called) Nakba, without reasonable evidence.

      • Annie Robbins
        June 1, 2013, 4:13 pm

        Even so it’s really misleading and fraudulent to declare in the story headline that ALL were “Victims of the (so-called) Nakba, without reasonable evidence.

        here: link to aljazeera.com

        watch the videos and learn the meaning of nakba. first line:

        “The Nakba did not begin in 1948. Its origins lie over two centuries ago….”

      • seafoid
        June 1, 2013, 4:23 pm

        1936 was part of the Nakba. The Palestinian leadership was destroyed.

        The Yishuv took over because of what happened in the 30s.
        Anyway it was never Jewish land. It still isn’t. It’s just rented by the JNF.

      • RoHa
        June 1, 2013, 10:52 pm

        ‘… suggesting that at least SOME of the people who were buried there were victims or combatants in the 1948-49 conflict. … Even so it’s really misleading and fraudulent to declare in the story headline that ALL were “Victims of the (so-called) Nakba, without reasonable evidence.”‘

        Good point. They had a mass grave available, so they decided to do a bit of tidying up. After all, the district was littered with the bodies of people who died of old age, boredom, disease, tainted candy floss, etc.

      • Woody Tanaka
        June 1, 2013, 10:55 pm

        Yeah, sure, a few of the witnesses at Nuremberg support tbe claim that SOME Jews were murdered in the camps during the (so-called) Holocaust, that doesn’t mean that ALL these six million people were. without reasonable evidence.

        Why, again, isn’t this Nakba-denying sh*t eater not banned?

      • Shingo
        June 1, 2013, 11:12 pm

        UK news story quotes a supposed eyewitness, suggesting that at least SOME of the people who were buried there were victims or combatants in the 1948-49 conflict. But nothing more specific than that.

        Yeah I’m sure it happens all the time Brian. When people die of natural causes, they dig up a mass grave and just dump the body among the bones of others.

        Seriously, the lengths you are going to in order to deny the obvious just highlights the insanity of Zionism.

    • Shingo
      June 1, 2013, 4:30 am

      I’m really surprised that the editors even ALLOWED Mondonut’s mildly dissenting opinion.

      I’m sure you would be surprised if Germany would allow mildly dissenting opinion on the Holocaust.

      Between 1936-39 there was a bloody Arab revolt in the area that was put down by the British, resulting in lots of violent fatalities.

      Yes, 6,000 to be exact. The revolt was against Jewish conquest of Palestine, and the British were acting on behalf of the Zionists.

      But then again, who here needs evidence to blood libel the Joos?

      Yet another text book example of a vile racist supremacist trying to salvage victim-hood from a massacre perpetrated by Israel.

    • just
      June 1, 2013, 7:22 am

      What does “buried in an Islamic manner” mean to you?

      Mass graves? I do know the burial requirements for Jews and Muslims– very similar indeed. It’s not requisite that they all get put in mass graves– it’s really not ‘tradition’. From the article:

      “He said that the danger of being hit by flying bullets or grenade fragments was such that bodies were dumped one on top of the other in existing family crypts in the cemetery, contrary to Muslim custom.”

      Mass graves indicate mass murders or natural catastrophe or a plague of disease. In this case, I am quite sure that science will reveal that the 1st is true.

      I think the Palestinians should erect a Nakba museum, starting in D.C. near the mall.

    • Denis
      June 1, 2013, 12:05 pm

      Well, hold on, now, annie, about these threats of banning. You’re beginning to sound like Foxman claiming that any hint of criticism of a Jew is AS.

      The defining characteristic of echo chambers is that they chase off all contrary opinions, at which point they have no useful purpose and become digital circle jerks. Is that what you’re trying to do?

      BE says he is “really surprised” MW allowed M-nut’s comments, but I am not at all surprised. MW has not yet become an [all out] echo chamber. Objective commenters trying to see both sides of various issues are shouted down by the readers but are usually tolerated by the mods, as I know so well. For the sake of self-preservation of the blog, I think MW should be moving away from an echo chamber mentality, not toward it, as you seem to be suggesting with your banning threats.

      A lot of what BE says is objectively and historically correct; I don’t see a thing that comes close to al-Nakba denial. After all, as you yourself report, the title of the report is “Jaffa mass graves for victims of the Nakba and the revolution of 1936.” Hello: the uprising pre-dated al-Nakba by 12 years. It was brutally put down by the British, who killed thousands of Palestinians. The British were killing Palestinians all the way back to at least 1930. Are you saying that a suggestion that the bodies came from the uprising is “nakba denial?”

      Here’s Wiki on the uprising indicating that the majority of Arabs killed during the uprising were killed by British:

      In an analysis of the British statistics, Walid Khalidi estimates 19,792 casualties for the Arabs, with 5,032 dead: 3,832 killed by the British and 1,200 dead because of terrorism, and 14,760 wounded.

      IOW, according to Wiki, if those graves hold victims of the uprising, as the title of the report suggests, the odds are better than 3:1 they were killed not by Jews but by goyim wearing British uniforms. Is this “nakba denial?”

      I guess I’m just totally lost as to your gripe with BE’s suggestion that the British were responsible.

      Instead of anti-Nabka sentiments that you ascribe to him, I see BE’s comment as entirely consistent with history and with the view that the British were co-perpetrators of al-Nakba in that without the British preparing the groundwork, it never would have happened — a fact that has been overlooked for too long. (But I would agree that BE’s “blood libel the Joos” comment was a real cheap shot and not helpful.)

      @annie: “it’s not really that difficult to detect how old bones are nowadays.”

      Do you mean there are bone analysis techniques that will distinguish a pre-Nakba death occurring in 1936 from one occurring in 1948? Would love to hear more about that. I don’t think so.

      • Annie Robbins
        June 1, 2013, 12:54 pm

        denis, i already stated i have no power to ban anyone. however, i do have the power just like anyone here to complain if i think someone is engaging in nakba denial. the very idea it is a ‘blood libel’ to reference, to write about, to document mass graves of palestinians killed during the nakba and site witnesses who said this:

        The mass graves support documented oral histories collected from Palestinians who lived through the Nakba. Historians have documented testimonies recounting scenes of massacres in Jaffa and the surrounding area from eyewitness who saw piles of bodies scattered thoughout neighborhoods of Jaffa.

        we already know there were massacres of palestinians during the nakba. so referencing allegations of massacres during the nakba this is not a ‘blood libel’. i didn’t write “Historians have documented massacres in Jaffa” i wrote they have documented “testimonies recounting scenes of massacres”.

        but we all know about jewish terrorists, this is not a fable. what i found most offensive was the attitude. blood libel the Joos?

        what if the holocaust was treated that way? isn’t that an insinuation jews didn’t ethnically cleanse palestinians during the nakba? and kill many people? isn’t it? we don’t debate that here.
        find me something specific in the article above that is a blood libel. but i don’t think this is a joking matter. if these were jewish bodies found in europe no one would be joking about blaming nazis, implying they had no blood on their hands. it’s offensive. and i have a right as an individual to complain about it and if you want to say that sounds like foxman go at it, i don’t care.

        The defining characteristic of echo chambers is that they chase off all contrary opinions

        great, you wanna debate whether nazis killed jews, go find another site.

        Do you mean there are bone analysis techniques that will distinguish a pre-Nakba death occurring in 1936 from one occurring in 1948? Would love to hear more about that. I don’t think so.

        link to mcs.mines.edu

        it’s been 65 years, so yes i imagine there’s a difference not only in bones but other material at the site such as cloth.

      • Denis
        June 1, 2013, 3:34 pm

        @annie: isn’t that an insinuation jews didn’t ethnically cleanse palestinians during the nakba?

        Not sure I follow. If are you saying that EB’s suggestion, which I agree with, that the British may be responsible for the dead people recently found in Jaffa is an insinuation that Jews didn’t ethnically cleanse Palestinians during al-Nakba, then you are waaaay off. The well known, documented fact that the British killed thousands of Palestinians from 1930 to 1947 says absolutely nothing about who butchered the Palestinians during the Nakba.

        You seem to be saying that Jews, and only Jews, were responsible for all of the killings and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinans from 1930 onwards, and anyone who says otherwise is denying the Nakaba. I hope I’m misreading what you are saying because, if that is your position, it is wildly wrong.

        I agree 100% that history should never take the heat off the Jewish criminals for what they did: Wizemann, Ben-Gurion, Jabotinsky, Begin, Sharon, Yair Stern, Golomb, Meridor, Meir, et al. – every one a bloodthirsty, reprehensible criminal. But we also need to leave room in the frying pan to include the British criminals who were equally culpable and reprehensible – Balfour, MacDonald, Baldwin, Montgomery, Wavell, Wingate, et al.

        In terms of butchering thousands of innocent Muslims for the good of, and in behalf of, Israel, these British creeps rank right up there with Bush and Obama.

      • Annie Robbins
        June 1, 2013, 4:29 pm

        I agree 100% that history should never take the heat off the Jewish criminals

        great, then you agree with me no one should insinuate jews didn’t ethnically cleanse palestinians during the nakba.

        i’m not going to address the rest of your comment until you block quote whatever text i wrote you consider a ‘blood libel’. not EB’s strawman allegations.

        zionists ethnically cleansed palestine. that’s real. it happened. i’m not dealing with what you think ‘i seem to be saying’. just copy and paste.

      • Shingo
        June 1, 2013, 1:57 pm

        Objective commenters trying to see both sides of various issues are shouted down by the readers but are usually tolerated by the mods, as I know so well.

        BE is not an objective commentator. He has included numerous false statements and typical hasbara in his arguments – such as ” failed attempted war of annihilation of the Jews in 1947-49″ and “blood libel the Joos” , which tells us that you obviously can’t tell the difference between fact and Foxman type hysteria.

        Neither of those statements are object or correct.

        Hello: the uprising pre-dated al-Nakba by 12 years. It was brutally put down by the British, who killed thousands of Palestinians. The British were killing Palestinians all the way back to at least 1930

        Correct, and why were they killing Palestinians? Because they were crushing any dissent against their plans to open Palestine to the flood of Jewish immigrants into Palestine and the inevitable conquest of Palestine by the Jews. This violence on their part against the Palestinians continued right up until their withdrawal. In the last few months, they even assisted the Zionist militias in expelling Palestinians from cities like Tiberius.

        How is that therefore, any difference from the Nakba itself?

        In an analysis of the British statistics, Walid Khalidi estimates 19,792 casualties for the Arabs, with 5,032 dead: 3,832 killed by the British and 1,200 dead because of terrorism, and 14,760 wounded.

        Dead because of who’s terrorism?

        I guess I’m just totally lost as to your gripe with BE’s suggestion that the British were responsible.

        And I guess I’m just totally lost as to your gripe that the British were acting on behalf of the Jews, and in fact, little more than enforcers for Jewish conquest of Palestine.

        After all, does it make any difference if victims of WWII were killed by the Germans or by their allies?

        I see BE’s comment as entirely consistent with history and with the view that the British were co-perpetrators of al-Nakba in that without the British preparing the groundwork, it never would have happened

        But that’s not BE’s argument at all, so you are being utterly indigenous. In fact, his claim that the Palestinians made a ” failed attempted war of annihilation of the Jews in 1947-49″ implies that those graves are the filled with the remains of those who deserved their fete.

        You’re argument is beyond pathetic.

    • MRW
      June 1, 2013, 4:31 pm

      buried in an Islamic manner

      What manner is that, Mr. Islamic Death Expert?

  7. Les
    May 31, 2013, 10:25 pm

    I doubt that it’s a story Hollywood or HBO are likely to dramatise.

    • Nation7697
      June 1, 2013, 8:44 am

      Its not Hollywood…its PALLYWOOD!

      http://www.seconddraft.org

      • Annie Robbins
        June 1, 2013, 10:46 am

        rrrrright…/not:

        link to valentinosghost.com

      • Shingo
        June 1, 2013, 2:15 pm

        Its not Hollywood…its PALLYWOOD!

        Too funny. It’s no secret that he Jews created Hollywood.

        As Moshe Sharett was ending his career in the mid-1950s, he came to the conclusion that Israel cannot be ruled without deceit as if it’s essential for the Jewish state’s survival. He wrote just before resigning:

        “I have learned that the state of Israel cannot be ruled
        in our generation without deceit and adventurism. These are historical facts that cannot be altered. . . In the end, history will justify both the
        stratagems and deceit and the acts of adventurism. All I know is that I, Moshe Sharett, am not capable of them, and I am therefore unsuited to lead this country”

        (Simha Flapan, p. 52-53).

        You hasbarats as such masters of projection.

        I can’t wait for your rendition of how Palestine was a land without a people waiting patiently for a people without a land.

      • Woody Tanaka
        June 1, 2013, 11:07 pm

        Typical. Scratch a zionist, uncover a racist.

        “Pallywood” is bigoted, like calling NY “Hymietown.”

  8. BrianEsker
    June 1, 2013, 1:07 am

    @ Annie Robbins

    Nakba denial a banning offense.
    That’s a good one.

    No, I think you completely missed my point. If you read the Al Aqsa Foundation article cited as the main reference for this piece, THEY ARE NOT SURE where all the bodies came from. Could have been a mass grave for the victims of an epidemic. Could have been victims of or fighters in the Arab revolt against the British 1936-39, or then again maybe casualties of the failed attempted war of annihilation of the Jews in 1947-49. Today’s technology for the dating of bone samples can’t usually distinguish someone who died in 1936 from someone in 1948.

    In either case, because there is no certainty what the cause of death was, using a headline for the story declaring them all as Nakba victims is misleading, as in journalistic-ally bogus.

    • Annie Robbins
      June 1, 2013, 10:50 am

      Today’s technology for the dating of bone samples can’t usually distinguish someone who died in 1936 from someone in 1948.

      do you have a source for that allegation?

      • Ecru
        June 1, 2013, 2:43 pm

        @ Annie

        Since this touches upon something I used to do may I chime in for a mo.

        Dating of archaeological remains is done through various means, all involving strange people in white coats doing strange things to strange things with other strange things. Odd lot, white coats. Anyway, obviously C14 Dating is the most famous but there are other methods and in dating such a recent find, where C14 is useless, you pretty much end up relying on the stratigraphy and associated finds/structures that might be datable.

        So for example if the remains are found in or above a layer where there’s a coin minted in 1922, you know they date from after that, but that’s it. Likewise if there’s a well dug through the strata, and you know when the well was dug you can say the finds pre-date the well, but that’s it. And you can keep doing this with lots of strata and features to narrow things down and can in fact get down to the year if you’re lucky. If you find a body, it’s associated with a coin from 1922 and the fill contains a coin from 1923 – it’s pretty safe to say in most cases that the body’s from 1922/23. Much more than that though, and you turn to the history books because events that produce mass graves like the Nakba or the Holocaust – have a tendency to get recorded.

        And I should mention that elsewhere in the world Oral History is a respected topic of enquiry, especially in Jewish studies funnily enough, so Zionists would have to plead a special case if they want to dismiss the testimony collected about these graves. But then pleading “but we’re a special group of xenophobic genocidal nutters” is what they tend to do best.

      • Ecru
        June 1, 2013, 5:14 pm

        @ BrianEsker

        There are TONS of methods – C14 would be possible (I forgot earlier – there’s been some work done that took advantage of the nuclear test era to make C14 applicable to the last 50 years or so. However apart from being hideously expensive, I think it’s still experimental, the paper was only published in the last couple of years.) but I’m doubtful it would have been used as the main dating method. As I said above, stratigraphic analysis would probably be the way to go. Maybe if there’s some wood about a bit of dendrochronology. Of course the fact there’s an oral history of the area and period helps matters a great deal too.

      • Ecru
        June 1, 2013, 5:45 pm

        OK I made an error.

        The problem is I think of this type of thing pictorially so explaining it in words – well give me a mo.

        You have a strata. In that strata is a corpse and a coin dated 1922. All you can tell from that is that this corpse was buried between 1922 and the present. The coin could have been dropped in 1973 for all you know, but it could not have been dropped in 1921.
        But above that is another strata, and in that one is a coin dated 1933. Again it could have been dropped much later – but definitely no earlier.
        So we have a maximum (1922) and a minimum (1933) which means that the corpse was buried no earlier than 1922 and that burial covered again no earlier than 1933. By repeating this analysis for multiple finds and using other methods where applicable (dendrochronology, analysis of decomposition based on soil chemistry etc.) you can keep narrowing this down to a finer and finer smudge. There’s simply no such thing as too many dating methods. Until you run out of money that is.

        (There’s a reason I hate explaining stratigraphy, most of the time the diagrams alone are enough to give you a migraine – and that’s without me getting into “cuts” and “fills” so be thankful. I suppose being crap at it doesn’t exactly help either. Oh well I tried.)

      • Annie Robbins
        June 1, 2013, 10:53 pm

        I should mention that elsewhere in the world Oral History is a respected topic of enquiry

        there are 55 oral history videos totaling over 18,000 minutes documenting jaffa here link to palestineremembered.com

        Jaffa District
        Town Name Birth Yr Minutes Episodes Interviewer Date Notes
        al-‘Abbasiyya
        Hasan al-Kanash 1938 540+ 14 Fawwaz Salameh March 15, 2005 Video
        Rayya Abu Himaid 1937 150+ 4 Fawwaz Salameh Nov. 6, 2004 Video
        Muhammad al-‘Amercani 1933 220+ 6 Fawwaz Salameh Aug. 26, 2005 Video
        Ahmad Musa Hamza 1925 846 21 Rakan Mahmoud October 27, 2009 Video
        Muhammad Hamid Bamyah 1932 333 10 Rakan Mahmoud October 23, 2009 Video
        Abu Kishk
        Muhammad Harb 1926 171+ 5 R. Mahmoud &
        S. ‘Ajjawi Aug. 12, 2006 Video
        Awni Abu Kishik 1932 317 2 Rakan Mahmoud August 11, 2009 Video
        Bayt Dajan
        Hasan al-Zul 1934 362 10 Fawwaz Salameh Feb. 14, 2006 Video
        Fu’ad al-Madi 1934 656 13 Rakan Mahmoud August 15, 2007 Video
        Salih al-Qanna 1927 261 7 Rakan Mahmoud November 24, 2007 Video
        Biyar ‘Adas
        Juma’ah Abu Khadra 1928 140 3 Rakan Mahmoud April 23, 2007 Video
        Musa al-Suqi 1928 197 2 Said Ajjawi April 24, 2007 Video
        Fajja
        Dr. Hilmi Shihadih 1938 160+ 4 Abdel Majeed D&
        eis &
        Fawwaz Salmeh May 20, 2005 Video
        Suliman al-Kuz 1924 160+ 4 Abdel Majeed Dandeis June 6, 2005 Video
        Mahmoud Shihadih 1930 260+ 8 Fawwaz Salameh Sept. 4, 2005 Video
        al-Haram
        Muhammad Sha’ban al-Qiram 1936 338 2 Rakan Mahmoud June 8, 2009 Video
        Ijlil al-Qibliyya
        Nimr Abu Thiyab 1936 517 11 Rakan Mahmoud July 27, 2008 Video
        Subhi Abu Sninah 1932 402 12 Rakan Mahmoud June 21, 2009 Video
        Ijlil al-Shamaliyya
        Abdullah al-Shoubaki 1932 80 3 Rakan Mahmoud Aug. 28th, 2006 Video
        Jaffa
        Muhammad al-‘Anani 1908 190+ 9 Abdel Majeed Dandeis June 8, 2003 Video
        Subhi al-Sabe’a 1933 95+ 5 Abdel Majeed Dandeis Sept. 3, 2003 Video
        Ahmad Abu Taha 1930 190_ 5 A. D&
        eis &
        F. Salameh May 22, 2005 Video
        Ghalib al-Qalqily 1930 320_ 9 Fawwaz Salameh Nov. 27, 2004 Video
        Walid al-Bibi 1931 320+ 8 A. D&
        eis &
        F. Salameh June 9, 2005 Video
        Tahir Qalyoubi 1929 527 4 Said ‘Ajjawi November 3, 2007 Video
        Ahmad Anwar Sacca 1932 831 15 Rakan Mahmoud Feb. 7th, 2008 Video
        Khayri Abu al-Jabeen 1934 344 2 Rakan Mahmoud August 23, 2009 Video
        Muhammad Ahmad al-Zabadi 1919 1296 16 Rakan Mahmoud July 21, 2009 Video
        Muhammad Ahmad Jrier 19XX 68 8 XXXXX August 22, 2010
        al-Jammasin al-Gharbi
        Yousif Abu Leil 1927 380 2 Rakan Mahmoud Dec. 13, 2008 Video
        al-Jammasin al-Sharqi
        Abd al-Raouf Abu ‘Ayyash 1925 236 8 Rakan Mahmoud July 2, 2008 Video
        Abdul Qadir Abu Leil 1934 312 3 Rakan Mahmoud Dec. 15, 2009 Video
        Kafr ‘Ana
        Yousif al-Deiri 1932 90+ 5 Abdel Majeed Dandeis Jan. 22, 2004 Video
        Muhammad ‘Ubeid 1928 400+ 11 Fawwaz Salameh Jan. 11, 2005 Video
        Omar al-Bayyari 1934 723 19 Rakan Mahmoud March 20, 2010 Video
        al-Khayriyya
        Yousif Sha’ban 1936 353 8 Rakan Mahmoud March 6, 2008 Video
        Omar al-Jurf 1934 341 8 Rakan Mahmoud September 7, 2009 Video
        al-Muwaylih
        Muhammad Ahmad Abu Zir 1936 448 3 Rakan Mahmoud June 17, 2009 Video
        Yaqoub al-Daqwar 1929 386 2 Rakan Mahmoud June 19, 2009 Video
        Rantiya
        Subhi al-Qattami 1933 371 6 Rakan Mahmoud Feb. 12, 2009 Video
        al-Safiriyya
        Hasan ‘Awad 1932 190+ 10 Abdel Majeed Dandeis Dec. 28, 2004 Video
        Ibrahim ‘Udeh 1931 260+ 7 Fawwaz Salameh Nov. 18, 2004 Video
        Atallah Abu Zeid 1935 468 6 Rakan Mahmoud March 3, 2009 Video
        Salama
        Ibrhaim Said al-Alim 1924 283 12 Rakan Mahmoud Sept. 12, 2011 Video
        Abdel Aziz-Saqir 1924 378+ 10 Fawwaz Salameh Aug. 13th, 2006 Video
        Ahmad al-Mashsheh 1929 204 2 Said ‘Ajjawi August 14, 2007 Video
        Muhammad Abu Hashiyyeh 1932 504 9 Rakan Mahmoud Feb. 25th, 2008 Video
        Huda Abu Qadous 19XX 77 11 XXXXX April 24, 2010
        Saqiya
        Mahmoud Abu Salim 1929 328 7 Rakan Mahmoud March 17, 2008 Video
        Kamil al-Nadi 1929 581 4 Rakan Mahmoud October 25, 2008 Video
        al-Shaykh Muwannis
        Sami Beidas 1931 275+ 7 Fawwaz Salameh July 30, 2006 Video
        Maryam Shalaweet 1933 75 4 Abdel Majeed Dandeis Dec. 1, 2003 Video
        Yazur
        Mahmoud Tayem 1930 240+ 7 Fawwaz Salameh Dec. 26, 2004 Video
        Dr. Mohammad Rabei 1940 130+ 5 Fawwaz Salameh Oct. 28, 2004 Video
        ‘Ali Uthman 1933 75+ 2 Abdel Majeed Dandeis June 11, 2004 Video
        District’s Total 55 18,399

        and all of them were recorded prior to the mass gravesites being located. something tells me there might be some information in those videos that supports the evidence in those graves.

      • RoHa
        June 1, 2013, 10:55 pm

        “You have a strata. ”

        No, you have a stratum. “Strata” is plural.

      • Ecru
        June 2, 2013, 6:54 am

        @ RoHa

        Oh good grief…..

      • Ecru
        June 2, 2013, 4:04 pm

        @ Annie

        Thanks for the info. The reason I mentioned that Oral History is a well respected field of enquiry elsewhere in the world is that Zionists have a nasty little habit (one of their many) of trying to dismiss evidence they don’t like. I was just trying to pre-empt them a bit.

      • BrianEsker
        June 1, 2013, 3:52 pm

        @Annie

        Today’s technology for the dating of bone samples can’t usually distinguish someone who died in 1936 from someone in 1948.

        do you have a source for that allegation?
        ———————

        Unless you can help us with something better, the most scientific method I know of is carbon dating.

        Here’s one reasonable reference:

        “…Radiocarbon dating is especially good for determining the age of sites occupied within the last 26,000 years or so (but has the potential for sites over 50,000), can be used on carbon-based materials (organic or inorganic), and can be accurate to within ±30-50 years. …”

        link to ncsu.edu

      • pjdude
        June 2, 2013, 12:23 am

        Um you just answered your own question unless u believe 30 is less than 12

      • seafoid
        June 2, 2013, 2:36 am

        Give it up, Brian. We know the Israelis murdered Palestinians by the thousands in 1948 because the archives are still closed.
        I bet Haifa has mass graves too.

        We know the official Zionist history is bullshit.
        There is no nice way to dispossess a people and replace them with another.
        You have to kill and kill.

      • tree
        June 1, 2013, 5:05 pm

        Annie, I’d say Esker’s comment,

        then again maybe casualties of the failed attempted war of annihilation of the Jews in 1947-49

        constitutes Nakba denial and blaming of the victims. I don’t think he should be banned, but I think that such repulsive descriptions of the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians should be condemned for the sick propaganda that they are.

      • seafoid
        June 2, 2013, 2:37 am

        I think he should be allowed stay . It’s so interesting to read the comments of the ultrabots.

    • Shingo
      June 1, 2013, 2:04 pm

      Could have been a mass grave for the victims of an epidemic.

      If that were true, then you wouldn’t mind providing a historical account of any fatal epidemics that took place in Palestine between 1936 and 1948 – other that typhus, which Zionist militias were dumping into water systems feeding large towns and villages?

      Could have been victims of or fighters in the Arab revolt against the British 1936-39

      The revolt against the British was in defiance of the British acting as the hired muscle of the Zionists, which ultimately led to their conquest of Palestine. You and your fellow hasbarats are going to extraordinary lengths to pretend that their grievances with the British had nothing to do with it.

      In either case, because there is no certainty what the cause of death was, using a headline for the story declaring them all as Nakba victims is misleading, as in journalistic-ally bogus.

      No, it’s journalistic-ally more than likely. You are simply clutching at straws and engaging in Nakba denial.

      You really should be banned.

    • pjdude
      June 2, 2013, 12:19 am

      Nice lie I assume that “attempted war of ahnilatation of 47-49″ your referring to the war Zionist jews started to conqueror the country and than since your a bigot blamed the victims in?

  9. Obsidian
    June 1, 2013, 2:34 am

    Note the last sentence of the quote.

    Researcher and historian Mahmoud Obeid, a Jaffa resident, told As-Safir, “We discovered six mass graves, two of which we dug up. Our estimate is that they contain around 200 bodies, with an unknown additional number in the other graves. The remains belong to people of different ages, including women, children and the elderly, some of which bear signs of violence.” But he indicated that “the bodies were buried following Muslim traditions, and were therefore probably victims of the nakba. But, in truth, we lack any other evidence [as to the nature of these deaths].”

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      June 1, 2013, 11:18 am

      So what do YOU think happened to these people, Obsidian? What’s your best guess, based on what is known of that period in history?

      • Obsidian
        June 2, 2013, 5:54 am

        @Maximus

        Best guess. Mostly 1948 war fatalities, with contemporaneous natural deaths, thrown into a ‘potters field’ which probably had some pre-1948 skeletons.

        And BTW. One thousand terror fatalities in Iraq last month.

      • Shingo
        June 2, 2013, 10:50 am

        And BTW. One thousand terror fatalities in Iraq last month.

        All for a war started for Israel.

      • just
        June 2, 2013, 1:57 pm

        All war is ‘terror’. We brought about the ‘civil’ war in Iraq.
        ————–
        More than 1,000 people were killed in violence across Iraq last month, according to the United Nations mission there, the highest monthly death toll in years.

        Violence has increased sharply in Iraq over the past two months, with bombings in civilian areas growing more frequent as fears grow that widespread sectarian conflict may break out once again. The bloodshed has accelerated since a deadly crackdown on 23 April by security forces on a Sunni protest in the northern town of Hawija.

        The UN figures showed that 1,045 civilians and security personnel were killed in May. That surpassed the 712 killed in April, the deadliest month recorded since June 2008.

        link to guardian.co.uk
        —————————
        What the Israelis do to Palestinians on a daily basis is terrorism, too. Wonder why you felt the need to bring up Iraq, when this article is about the massacre of Palestinians and the Nakba. More deflection, eh?

      • MHughes976
        June 2, 2013, 4:04 pm

        To me not exactly terrorism, since so much of it is in the full light of day and so much of it less than lethal. It’s occasionally murderous and always humiliating, therefore deeply de-humanising, oppression.

      • Dutch
        June 2, 2013, 6:05 pm

        @ just

        It’s even worse in Iraq. Here’s John Pilger on the present the Iraqi’s will be unpacking for generations to come: link to guardian.co.uk

      • Obsidian
        June 4, 2013, 4:45 am

        Massacre? What massacre?

    • Shingo
      June 1, 2013, 1:59 pm

      But, in truth, we lack any other evidence [as to the nature of these deaths].”

      Again, if they found a mass graves of Jewish remains in Poland, would you or any of your fellow travellers be entertaining the possibility that they died of an epidemic?

      • Denis
        June 3, 2013, 9:52 am

        Sure. If the grave was dated 1650. 1737. 1880. Why not?

        Even if the grave was dated 1940, the Nazis and WWII did not put an end to epidemics. Your question shows that you are so closed minded you cannot even entertain the possibility that Polish Jews were (are?) not immune to typhus or cholera or other diseases and could have died in an epidemic. Your auto-pilot thinking goes: Dead Jews + Poland = Shoah, and that’s the only equation you can deal with.

        Jewish history, even in Poland, did not start and did not end w/ WWII.

        As for Jaffa, if you’re not willing to see the objective truth in the statement that we don’t have enough information yet to determine the circumstances of the deaths of the people in Jaffa, you’re too far gone to be helped. As the man said: Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and pisses off the pig.

      • Shingo
        June 3, 2013, 5:18 pm

        Even if the grave was dated 1940, the Nazis and WWII did not put an end to epidemics.

        You hasbara lackeys really need to put up or shut up about your theory of an epidemic being the cause of death. If there was such an epidemic in the 1940s, then where is is recorded?

        You’re too far gone to be helped apparently.

        As for Jaffa, if you’re not willing to see the objective truth in the statement that we don’t have enough information yet to determine the circumstances of the deaths of the people in Jaffa

        We have sufficient to have a pretty good guess, and given the historical events at the time, it’s perfectly reasonable.

        As the man said: There’s no point trying to wake someone who refuses to be woken up.

    • pjdude
      June 2, 2013, 12:30 am

      Right because no even tried to point blame and manipulate evidence in a mass grave to pin the blame on some one else oh wait there was that whole kerfufle at kaytn less than a decade before. Wait weren’t their jews who were in Palestine because they survived the picking of that massacre and went on to destert armed forces fighting the nazis to commit terrorist attacks against the government of a country fighting the nazis. You betcha

  10. grandpont
    June 1, 2013, 6:56 am

    really, we are getting a very poor quality of hasbarista here. Let me give them a tutorial on how to do it properly;

    ‘All these deaths are very tragic. But the blame for them lies with the Palestinian leadership. Arab terrorists attacked Tel Aviv from Jaffa so of course the Jews had to defend themselves. But as usual the terrorists were hiding among the civilian population so tragically, they suffered too. Anyway how do we know how many of these dead were civilians? And if the Irgun attacked Jaffa first, well should they have waited till they were attacked before defending themselves? Anyway as Palestine is the national home of the Jews the Arabs were the aggressors by living there and refusing to accept the Mandate and the partition plan. And everybody else has been allowed a go at ethnic cleansing if you go back far enough – why shouldn’t the Jews be entitled to their turn? Antisemitism!’

    No, sorry, I apologise. Satire is impossible…

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      June 1, 2013, 11:17 am

      Very good. I think it deserves an ‘A’.

      Now, if you’d managed to squeeze in a little something about how Palestinians are just naturally anti-Semitic and of course love death more than they love life, I might give you an ‘A+’.

      • Shingo
        June 1, 2013, 2:11 pm

        And if you had managed to squeeze in a little something about how the existence of children in the mass graved proves that Palestinians hate Jews more than they love their children, I might give you an ‘A++’.

    • Obsidian
      June 1, 2013, 11:22 am

      @Grandpont

      How many Jews and how many Arabs died during the 1947-1949 conflict?

  11. jon s
    June 1, 2013, 7:34 am

    During the Arab Revolt of 1936-39 there was widespread internecine bloodshed. More Arabs died at the hands of other Arabs than by the British or Jews.
    In 1948 there was a war in which lots of people were killed on both sides, and the recently discovered skeletons are a grim reminder of those events. The discovery is not proof of a “massacre”, it’s evidence of the terrible toll the war took on the Palestinians. The war also cost the lives of 6000 people on the Jewish side, including some 2000 civilians, out of a Yishuv which numbered 600,000 – 1% of the Jewish population.

    • Annie Robbins
      June 1, 2013, 10:53 am

      More Arabs died at the hands of other Arabs than by the British or Jews.

      who is your source on this? could you link to it please?

    • grandpont
      June 1, 2013, 12:23 pm

      what did I tell you? You couldn’t make it up!

      • RoHa
        June 1, 2013, 10:42 pm

        “You couldn’t make it up!”

        I couldn’t, but the Hasbareers clearly can and do.

    • Annie Robbins
      June 1, 2013, 1:22 pm

      The discovery is not proof of a “massacre”

      how astute. note you did not write: The discovery is not “proof of a massacre”

      since no one said it was.

      it’s evidence of the terrible toll the war took on the Palestinians.

      “the war took”? that’s one way of whitewashing a crime against humanity.

    • Shingo
      June 1, 2013, 1:42 pm

      The discovery is not proof of a “massacre”, it’s evidence of the terrible toll the war took on the Palestinians.

      How would you feel about someone describing the deaths of millions of Jewsin 1939 as the terrible toll the WWII took on the Jews?

      The war also cost the lives of 6000 people on the Jewish side, including some 2000 civilians, out of a Yishuv which numbered 600,000 – 1% of the Jewish population.

      What idiocy! More than 10% of the population were fighters. What does it mean that 1% were killed?

    • Shingo
      June 1, 2013, 2:09 pm

      During the Arab Revolt of 1936-39 there was widespread internecine bloodshed.

      To describe the Holocaust as widespread internecine bloodshed would be considered Holocaust denial, and it would be, because it completely avoids the fact that the bloodshed was the result of deliberate violence and it’s motivations.

      More Arabs died at the hands of other Arabs than by the British or Jews.

      Even Obsidian debunked this claim, which pretty much proves the rest of your argument is but made up hasbara.

      The discovery is not proof of a “massacre”, it’s evidence of the terrible toll the war took on the Palestinians.

      Yeah right Jon, and mass graves of Jews in Poland is not proof of the Holocaust, it is just evidence of the terrible toll WWII took on the Jews right?

      Seriously, do you guys even hear yourselves when you type this shit?

    • seafoid
      June 1, 2013, 3:01 pm

      “out of a Yishuv which numbered 600,000″

      I thought it had always been Israel.

    • Walker
      June 1, 2013, 5:07 pm

      The war also cost the lives of 6000 people on the Jewish side, including some 2000 civilians, out of a Yishuv which numbered 600,000 – 1% of the Jewish population.

      This is really too much.

      Wikipedia states:
      Estimates of the number of Palestinian Jews killed range from 91 to several hundred.

      Your post is is a good example of a style of argument supporters of Israel use over and over. Untruths delivered with an air of effortless authority.

      • yonah fredman
        June 1, 2013, 8:21 pm

        Walker- Your wikipedia article is about the revolt of 1936 to 1939 and Jon S is talking about the 1948 war.

      • Walker
        June 2, 2013, 11:10 am

        My mistake.

      • tree
        June 1, 2013, 8:54 pm

        Walker, In defense of jon, he was talking about the War of 1948, but your figure of “91 to several hundred” is the Jewish casualty list of the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt. Two different times.

    • tree
      June 1, 2013, 8:52 pm

      The war also cost the lives of 6000 people on the Jewish side, including some 2000 civilians, out of a Yishuv which numbered 600,000 – 1% of the Jewish population.

      According to Israeli historian Simha Flapan:

      According to data assembled by Yochai Sela of Tel Aviv University, the number of Jewish deaths in the war was 5,708, including 4,558 soldiers. Among civilians, most casualties resulted from bombings and artillery fire, the majority in Jerusalem. Among the military, 1.345 were killed during the civil war, November 30.1947, to May 15th, 1948; the remaining 3,213 were lost between May 15th, 1948, and March 10, 1949. More Israeli soldiers died while attacking than while defending against attacks by Palestinians and Arab armies- 2409 as opposed to 1947. The number of Israelis killed within the borders of the state designated by the UN was 1581; the number killed in the areas outside of these borders was 2759. In a final breakdown, 984 Israelis were killed defending Jewish settlements, 1212 died attacking Arab settlements.

      A part of the mythology of the War of Independence asserts that most of the Jewish casualties were suffered in the defense of the Yishuv. The figures, however, tell a different story. They show that more than 50 percent of Jewish casualties were suffered in offensive actions and only 21 percent of Jewish casualties were suffered in defensive ones. Furthermore, 60 percent of all Jewish casualties occurred in actions in areas outside of the borders of the Jewish state.

      Flapan, pages 198-199.

      link to mondoweiss.net

      • Obsidian
        June 2, 2013, 12:20 am

        According to Uri Milstein, former IDF archivist, 6,600 Jews died and approximately 10,000 Arabs died.

    • tree
      June 1, 2013, 9:03 pm

      During the Arab Revolt of 1936-39 there was widespread internecine bloodshed. More Arabs died at the hands of other Arabs than by the British or Jews.

      Incorrect. According to British figures quoted in Wikipedia:

      According to official British figures covering the whole revolt, the army and police killed more than 2,000 Arabs in combat, 108 were hanged,[8] and 961 died because of gang and terrorist activities.[1] In an analysis of the British statistics, Walid Khalidi estimates 19,792 casualties for the Arabs, with 5,032 dead: 3,832 killed by the British and 1,200 dead because of terrorism, and 14,760 wounded.[1] Over ten percent of the adult male Palestinian Arab population between 20 and 60 was killed, wounded, imprisoned or exiled.[12] Estimates of the number of Palestinian Jews killed range from 91[13] to several hundred.[14]

      Up to 50,000 British troops were deployed as were 15,000 Haganah troops who assisted in defeating the rebellion.

      • Annie Robbins
        June 1, 2013, 10:43 pm

        that’s an interesting blockquote tree. i wonder what this means: 5,032 dead: 3,832 killed by the British and 1,200 dead because of terrorism

        it sounds like 3,832 people were killed by other people and 1,200 people were killed because of “terrorism”. you have to scroll all the way down the wiki page after several sections til you come to this: From October 1937 the Irgun instituted a wave of bombings against Arab crowds and buses.

        why don’t they just say “From October 1937 terrorism caused a wave of bombings against Arab crowds and buses”? i mean …. why bother even mentioning who these terrorists are!

  12. Obsidian
    June 1, 2013, 11:19 am

    “More Arabs died at the hands of other Arabs than by the British or Jews.”

    Not so. No more than one thousand Arabs died in internecine warfare. See Army of Shadows , by Hillel Cohen.
    The British killed most of the Arabs during their revolt.

    • jon s
      June 2, 2013, 4:19 pm

      A clarification, (and partial correction): the accounts that I’m familiar with all agree that at a certain point the Arab Revolt of 1936-39 morphed from a rebellion against the British (accompanied by attacks on the Jews) into widespread inter-Arab bloodletting. So, to be careful, perhaps I should have written:” In the later stage of the revolt more Arabs died at the hands of other Arabs…”
      See Yehoshua Porath:The Palestinian Arab National Movement, 1929-1939: From Riots to Rebellion (Vol 2)
      Also Tom Segev: One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate

      • Annie Robbins
        June 2, 2013, 5:58 pm

        See Yehoshua Porath:The Palestinian Arab National Movement, 1929-1939: From Riots to Rebellion (Vol 2)
        Also Tom Segev: One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate

        either you have a quote or not jon.

        the accounts that I’m familiar with all agree that at a certain point the Arab Revolt of 1936-39 morphed from a rebellion against the British (accompanied by attacks on the Jews) into widespread inter-Arab bloodletting.

        well, since you remember these accounts why don’t you enlighten us as to how they switch sides and started ‘bloodletting’ themselves instead of the british and the jews. and when it went from a riot to a rebellion which arabs were the palestinians rebelling against?

      • Shingo
        June 2, 2013, 6:35 pm

        the accounts that I’m familiar with all agree that at a certain point the Arab Revolt of 1936-39 morphed from a rebellion against the British (accompanied by attacks on the Jews) into widespread inter-Arab bloodletting.

        Yes, let’s see the quote and page number or it didn’t happen.

      • tree
        June 3, 2013, 1:45 am

        I have a copy of One Palestine Complete and can find no such reference as you state, jon. Segev mentions the large number of executions of Arabs by the British in the later part of the Revolt, but no reference to “more Arabs died at the hands of other Arabs”. Perhaps your memory is faulty, or you are relying on a faulty website. You did something similar when you mentioned the destruction of the Hurva Synagogue, without mentioning that it was destroyed during the 1948 war after the Haganah refused to abandon it as a base for their offensive actions in Jerusalem.

        I’m aware that there were some instances of gangs enforcing compliance with general strikes and boycotts. This kind of internecine conflict also happened among the Zionist Jews as well.

  13. just
    June 1, 2013, 11:30 am

    Wow, just wow.

    You gotta just laugh at the chutzpah of the hasbara brigade. Every time I think that the Zionists seem to or should be running out of their narrative, they just keep spinning faster and faster; the well is deep, I guess.

    It’s kind of awesome– not in a good way, though.

    • Shingo
      June 1, 2013, 2:31 pm

      You gotta just laugh at the chutzpah of the hasbara brigade. Every time I think that the Zionists seem to or should be running out of their narrative, they just keep spinning faster and faster; the well is deep, I guess.

      They are clearly pretty freaked out about this latest discovery because it would explode the whole idea that the Jews were facing annihilation in 1948. They gotta keep that claim to victim hood alive.

      That’s why Bibbi refuses to declassify a million documents from 1948, which were due for declassification, on the grounds of Israeli national security.

      • Obsidian
        June 1, 2013, 4:55 pm

        @Shingo

        How are we progressing in our efforts to open up the Arab States archives from that period?

      • Shingo
        June 1, 2013, 7:52 pm

        How are we progressing in our efforts to open up the Arab States archives from that period?

        Remind me when they were due to be declassified?

        And then you might want to explain why declassified Israeli records which Benny Morris was allowed to review were reclassified so that no one could scrutinize. Morris’ interpretation.

      • Dutch
        June 2, 2013, 7:22 pm

        @ Obsidian

        Yeah, or the Tibetan archives, right? [re. 'Trespassers on the roof of the world' — Dickerson, where are you when we need you?]

        But no. The final question is if the Nakba was organized top-down – a fact that Israel denies. If so, the proof is in the Israeli archives. If nothing happened in terms of organized ethnic cleansing or genocide, Israel would have declassified these documents, don’t you think? What is there to hide?

        Well, a lot, as we all know. And you know what? It’s been ongoing for 65 years, up to today – neatly organized and executed in cold blood. From that respect we don’t really need the archives. We know more than enough.

      • Sumud
        June 2, 2013, 12:51 am

        They are clearly pretty freaked out about this latest discovery because it would explode the whole idea that the Jews were facing annihilation in 1948.

        Well, that was exploded decades ago by the New Historians such a Simha Flapan – tree has the vital quote above documenting how the majority of zionist casualties occurred while they were undertaking offensiveaction outside the area allocated to Israel in UN181.

        But finding mass graves of as many as 600 Palestinian men women and children (as per Daily Mail article MRW references below) is going to reinforce to millions more people the importance of the Nakba to the Palestine/Israel. Israel’s downhill slide just got another push.

  14. a blah chick
    June 1, 2013, 3:45 pm

    Maybe they were killed by “dissident” elements. That was the description that Eban gave to the Irgun and Stern Gang people, cuz if he’d called them terrorists that just would have confused his readers.

  15. MRW
    June 1, 2013, 4:26 pm

    The Daily Mail has a lot more photographs:
    link to dailymail.co.uk

    And a bizarre headline seeking to downplay it by accentuating ONE grave and saying only dozens found. The body text says six graves so far, and estimated 600.

    • Annie Robbins
      June 2, 2013, 3:13 am

      dozens wasn’t a lie! there are around 50 dozen.

      • MRW
        June 3, 2013, 4:52 am

        I keep forgetting that the population of the US is 26 million dozens. ;-)

  16. homingpigeon
    June 1, 2013, 11:42 pm

    Does anyone in this group of commentators – whether hasbarist or counter hasbarist – engage in conversations with holocaust deniers about exactly how many people in the death camps died in gas chambers versus disease and how many were Jewish? I can’t believe hasbarists have the audacity to quibble about the possibility of 1936 versus 1947 as though that might offer vindication.

    • American
      June 2, 2013, 10:30 am

      @homing pigeon

      Excellent point.
      Here’s what the Holocaust industry claims is holocaust denial.

      ”Denying that there ever was an official plan on the part of Hitler or any other part of the Nazi regime systematically and physically to eliminate every Jew in Europe.
      Denying that there ever existed homicidal gas-chambers.
      Claiming that the numbers of Jewish victims of the Nazi assault have been greatly exaggerated.”

      This is what the holocaust denier ( name escapes me) in Germany was imprisoned for.

      The arguments over numbers and etc. is really not important….where the Nakba deniers are worse than (so called) holocaust deniers is they deny that the Jews ‘deliberately forced’ the Palestines out….The (so called) holocaust deniers don’t deny that Jews were targeted and deported and put in camps or killed, they just quibble over methods and numbers.

  17. kayq
    June 2, 2013, 1:45 am

    This is just ridiculous.

    People denying Al-Nakba? People denying deaths? What more proof do you need? It is ALL in front of you.

    We know 750, 000+ inhabitants fled or were expelled. What happened to the rest of the Palestinians besides those in the West Bank, Gaza and who currently remain in Israel today? Oh yeah, they were shot and killed. Massacres took place all over Palestine, and you must be stupid to deny that. Starting with Deir Yassin, and they continued.

    • Woody Tanaka
      June 2, 2013, 12:48 pm

      “Massacres took place all over Palestine, and you must be stupid to deny that.”

      Not stupidity; ideology. If they admit that, a few years after 6 million Jews were murdered for irrational political reasons, the Jews in Palestine murdered thousands upon thousands of Palestinians for irrational political reasons, then they would have to admit they are not better than anyone else and that the axioms they’ve professed — that they are a uniquely good people who’ve been faced with irrational bigotry against them from the Gentile world, or are people who “love life” but live among non-Jews who “love death” — is absolutely false. It shows that history establishes that they are not special, but merely unfortunate, and that they are not uniquely moral, but are capable of the most vile evil as anyone else. It establishes the truth of the claims against them, which they do not want to admit. So, like holocaust deniers, they lie, ignore evidence, espouse nonsense and slander their opposites, so that they can continue to live in their fantasy. They are really quite pathetic.

  18. hammersmith
    June 2, 2013, 9:07 pm

    Israel: There can be no peace on stolen land.

Leave a Reply