‘England out of Ireland’ — Ed Koch’s hypocrisy

Israel/Palestine
on 41 Comments
 
Ed Koch wanted the English out of Ireland
Ed Koch wanted the English out of Ireland
On a dusty wall of McSorley’s Old Ale House, the oldest Irish tavern in New York City, hangs an autographed portrait of the late New York Mayor Ed Koch. Koch inscribed a pro-IRA slogan below his portrait and above his signature, an apparent appeal to the tavern’s Irish Catholic owners: “England out of Ireland.”
 
Koch was, of course, one of the Democratic Party’s most vocal supporters of Israel’s settlement enterprise. He smeared critics of the occupation of Palestine as “terrorist supporter[s].” The irony of his inscription can hardly be overstated.
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41 Responses

  1. Bing Bong
    July 30, 2013, 2:24 pm

    Why did he have 2 different opinions about 2 different political situations?

    • Ellen
      July 30, 2013, 6:08 pm

      BB, how are they so different? Tell us?

      The similarities and dynamics are eerily similar — down to the rhetoric used by the English occupiers back in the day to demonize, justify killings, imprisonment, round up of children, embargoes, etc.

      Now what finally remains under British control is a weary embarrassment for the UK. They wish the Northern Ireland loyalists (who were, at one time, Scots sent in to settle the land) would vote to unite with the rest of the country so England could be rid of the sorry story.

      So far, the historical parallels are so similar, if this keeps playing out, it bodes no better for the Zionist enterprise than it ultimately did for the British exercise of empire and control.

      • OlegR
        July 31, 2013, 4:36 am

        Ireland is foreign to the British.
        Israel Ehuda and Shomron is home to us.
        That’s the difference.

        Also the brits should get out of the Malvines.

      • James Canning
        August 3, 2013, 2:43 pm

        @OlegR – – Ireland is “foreign” to the English? Wales?

        You do not think the Falkland Islanders have a right to determine whether they remain British?

      • Bing Bong
        July 31, 2013, 1:40 pm

        If the situations are so alike then perhaps a similar peace process can be brought into effect which has essentially seen the end of Republican and Loyalist violence and a peaceful 2SS.

        But I don’t see a final settlement where Israel exists alongside Palestine in the same way that NI and Eire do, leading to Israel wishing to be voted into a Palestinian whole like you think is the will of the UK regarding NI.

      • James Canning
        July 31, 2013, 2:11 pm

        BingBong – – I very much agree, ZERO chance Israelis would vote to unite with an independent Palestine.

      • Ellen
        August 1, 2013, 3:39 am

        Hmmm… a bit of projection. In no way did I imply that I believe Israeli citizens will vote into a Palestinian whole.

        (and the majority of the citizens of Northern Ireland never voted to be a part of the Irish whole either.)

      • eGuard
        August 1, 2013, 5:33 am

        Bing Bong: … the same way that NI and Eire do.

        You did not get the Troubles’ essence did you? Any way, Eire did kick out the English.

      • Russian Prussian
        August 2, 2013, 1:35 pm

        They do not need to vote for that. There exist two possible solutions:
        – either something resembling the relationship between the Netherlands and Belgium (“2-state-solution” with Luxemburg as Gaza) which includes the right for every citizen of the two (or three) countries to settle everywhere but vote only in the country of citizenship.
        – or something resembling Bosnia-Herzegovina (“1-state-solution”) with Israel as Republika Srpska, Palestine as Bosnian-Croat Federation and Brcko as condominium Jerusalem

        The relationship between Netherlands and Belgium was voluntary, the Bosnian relationship was imposed by the Dayton Agreement. If Israel does not want a normal relationship it will be imposed on them.

      • James Canning
        August 3, 2013, 1:50 pm

        @Russian Prussian – – You are almost certainly quite right, that a deal will have to be imposed, to resolve Israel/Palestine.

      • James Canning
        August 3, 2013, 2:16 pm

        eGuard – – Ireland exited the United Kingdom. Did not expel “the English”.

      • James Canning
        July 31, 2013, 1:54 pm

        @Ellen – – The people of Northern Ireland want to remain part of the UK. I take it this displeases you?

      • Bing Bong
        July 31, 2013, 3:48 pm

        It is displeasing for Ellen, because to draw a parallel between the conflicts leads to drawing the parallel with their solutions, namely 2SS. And 2SS is not popular here.

        Taking the negative elements of a separate political situation and pressing these negatives onto Israel by comparison is what Ellen is trying to do. The conclusion being some kind of negative result for the ‘Zionist enterprise’ on a par with the equally broad (and equally incorrect) conclusion that “the UK” doesn’t want to be united with NI.

      • Ellen
        August 1, 2013, 3:54 am

        James, no. The peace agreement allows the citizens of Northen Ireland to vote if the want a united Ireland or to remain part of the UK. That this agreement has brought relative peace and gradually better conditions for the minority is wonderful. This is what it is and peace prevails. That should please all.

        But it no longer pleases the British that the decendents of their former colonialist and loyalists want to be part of the UK. It is an expensive useless embarrasement.

      • Bing Bong
        August 3, 2013, 2:16 pm

        “That this agreement has brought relative peace and gradually better conditions for the minority is wonderful. This is what it is and peace prevails. That should please all.”

        You would support a 2SS for I/P if it bore similar results?

        “But it no longer pleases the British that the decendents of their former colonialist and loyalists want to be part of the UK. It is an expensive useless embarrasement.”

        Is this true?

      • James Canning
        August 3, 2013, 2:19 pm

        @Ellen – – I am deeply aware of attitudes in England, and Scotland, toward continuing presence of Northern Ireland as part of UK. Deeply aware.

    • Talkback
      July 31, 2013, 11:35 am

      Good question. He’s not English and Israel doesn’t occupy Ireland. Very different situations.

  2. clairseoir
    July 30, 2013, 4:16 pm

    Ireland enjoys a grim history, both distant and recent, of occupation, imprisonment without trial, torture, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing: hence the hypocrisy and the irony pointed out by Max. The difference between the Irish and Palestinian situations most relevant to Koch, it would seem, was that in one case the victims were Irish, and in the other, Palestinian. Some may characterize this difference as being of sufficient weight so as to prompt them to adopt contrasting positions on questions touching upon fundamental human justice. These people are known as racists.

    • piotr
      July 30, 2013, 8:32 pm

      We discussed that as recently as 200 years ago the rights of Englishmen to have English state mean Anglican state where other Protestants would also enjoy civil rights but Catholics, mostly Irish, did not have them. Thus the right of Israel to exists as a Jewish state very much resembles the right of Anglicans to have England (actually, Unitited Kingdom) as an Anglican state. Gradually, the English/Anglicans figured out that they do not want that “right”.

      • James Canning
        July 31, 2013, 2:01 pm

        Church of England remains the established church in England.

        Catholic emancipation was a challenging political issue in Britain 200 years ago, most definitely.

        Large-scale emigration from Ireland of Presbyterians in early 18th century owed a good deal to religious discrimination against them.

      • amigo
        July 31, 2013, 4:20 pm

        “Large-scale emigration from Ireland of Presbyterians in early 18th century owed a good deal to religious discrimination against them.” JC

        These people who ethnically cleansed indigenous Irish from much of the North East were the equivalent of the Illegal Settler thieves stealing from Palestinians.Neither garner my sympathy.

      • Russian Prussian
        August 3, 2013, 3:49 am

        Sure, but England does not define itself as “Anglican State” like Israel defines itself as “Jewish State”.

      • James Canning
        August 3, 2013, 1:43 pm

        Very true. Very true indeed.

      • James Canning
        August 3, 2013, 2:29 pm

        @amigo – – Would the civil war in British North America in the 1770s and 80s have turned out differently, had there been no religious discrimination in Ireland against Presbyterians? Probably, in my view.

  3. Chu
    July 30, 2013, 4:40 pm

    The crux of Jewish hypocrisy framed at McSorley’s. Is it that Zionism and it’s new child ‘Israel’ are so special in their minds, that they cannot see their hideous reflections?

  4. amigo
    July 30, 2013, 4:46 pm

    “Why did he have 2 different opinions about 2 different political situations?”BB

    It is commonplace for Israel,s apologists to claim that Israel and Ireland share similar histories.To give credibility to this claim, it is necessary to believe there is no occupation in Palestine but there is one in Northern Ireland.

    It would be interesting to know if Koch wrote this piece before the Good friday agreement or after.

    What is really ironic is that Koch is a dead ringer (no pun intended) for Jack Lynch, a former Irish Taoiseach (PM). Thankfully the similarities end there.

    See image here. link to en.wikipedia.org

    • James Canning
      July 30, 2013, 6:49 pm

      @amigo – – And of course there is no “occupation” of Northern Ireland. Nor any “occupation” of Wales. Or Cornwall.

      • amigo
        July 31, 2013, 6:30 am

        And of course there is no “occupation” of Northern Ireland. Nor any “occupation” of Wales. Or Cornwall. JC

        Hello James, I cannot comment on Cornwall but as I understand it, the Good Friday agreement ended the “Occupation” in Northern Ireland.

        Did not the Welsh people vote to stay in Britain, at least for now???.

        Did I misinterpret your response.

      • James Canning
        August 3, 2013, 2:49 pm

        @amigo – – That agreement indeed resolved much of the problem, thank goodness.

        British army was not occupying Northern Ireland.

  5. MHughes976
    July 30, 2013, 6:17 pm

    Different opinions about different situations are permitted surely. It’s markedly different opinions about clearly similar situations that raise logical problems.

  6. Nevada Ned
    July 30, 2013, 6:26 pm

    Many New Yorkers noticed that Ed Koch looked like Frank Perdue, famous chicken tycoon.

    Koch was responding politically to “The Three I’s” of ethnic politics in New York City: Ireland, Italy, and Israel. Politicians put in an appearance at the St. Patrick’s Day parade (drink Irish beer), at the San Gennaro festival (eat pizza), and at the Salute to Israel parade (eat a bagel and lox).

  7. James Canning
    July 30, 2013, 6:48 pm

    Bravo. And is it not true that a majority of the Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland were in favor of keeping NI within the UK?

    • Ellen
      July 31, 2013, 2:53 am

      No, James, it is not true. The majority of the citizens of Northeern Ireland have voted to stay in the UK.

      historically the Brtish encouraged, even financed settlement of Ireland by loyalists to the crown. Complete with purges of families and groups off their land just as in the Palestinian regions. Yet another of the many historic similarities.

      Over time the natives in Northern Ireland (who happened to be RC) became a minority. There are still dreams to be a United country again among many. Until and unless a majority votes as such, it will not happen. The UK, however, would be happy to be rid of the obligations to Northern Ireland.

    • HarryLaw
      July 31, 2013, 4:57 am

      James Canning “And it is not true that a majority of the Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland were in favour of keeping NI within the UK” See this major survey :Most Northern Irish Catholics want to remain in UK. here..link to belfasttelegraph.co.uk

    • DaraO
      July 31, 2013, 8:45 am

      That’s not something anyone can state with any certainty, regrettably. The only time that this specific subject has been put to the electoral test in the 1973 Sovereignty of Northern Ireland referendum , the nationalist/republican parties boycotted the process and exhorted their supporters to do likewise, with the result that the 99% vote in favour of remaining in the UK was somewhat discredited. There have been subsequent opinion polls which have suggested that there’s no real appetite in Ireland, North or South, for large-scale constitutional change, particularly in Northern Ireland since the power-sharing Executive was put into place post-St Andrews, but this is not the same as saying that “a majority of X want or don’t want Y.”

      What one can say with absolute certainty is that, for the duration of the armed conflict in Northern Ireland and to this day, the indigenous population of Northern Ireland who self-identify as “Irish,” (an admittedly unwieldy description that someone with a more reductive approach to the conflict might reduce to “Catholics,”) voted overwhelmingly for political parties who advocated the dissolution of Northern Ireland and reunification as a 32-County Republic.

      • James Canning
        August 3, 2013, 2:58 pm

        Majority of RCs in NI apparently favor continuing inclusion in UK.

    • Ellen
      August 1, 2013, 3:34 am

      The majority of the citizens of NI voted to remain within the UK. RCs are a minority in N. Ireland.

      • James Canning
        August 3, 2013, 2:37 pm

        @Ellen – – But Roman Catholics are fast-approaching majority-status in Northern Ireland.

    • Ecru
      August 2, 2013, 3:46 am

      That’s true at the moment under the present (imperfect, not 100% secure) peace but during the Troubles, most definitely – no.

      Amazing what peace and ensuring people’s human rights can do isn’t it? Maybe Israel should try it.

  8. just
    July 30, 2013, 9:35 pm

    I’ve been there and have seen that hypocrite and his framed photograph. Ugh.

    Wonder what he would think of Weiner??? He would probably trust him unconditionally.

  9. Obsidian
    July 31, 2013, 5:01 am

    @Max

    Kicking dead Ed in his grave.

    Don’t you have better things to do?

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