Global edition of ‘NYT’ runs op-ed against ‘Arab women giving birth’ in Israel

Israel/Palestine
on 84 Comments

Unbelievable. On the anniversary of MLK’s I have a dream speech, the global edition of the New York Times, the International Herald Tribune, runs a piece by Shmuel Rosner deploring the Arab birth rate– or the Muslim Arab birth rate– as a threat to his “dream” of the Jewish state. The piece involves government subsidies that increase the likelihood of “Arab women giving birth.”

And Arab babies make Israel “feel less Jewish.” By the way, America feels a lot less white than it did when I was growing up, and the New York Times or its affiliates didn’t run arguments against women of color giving birth.

Some other excerpts of this racist argument, cloaked in highmindedness:

Almost all Jewish Israelis want the country to remain a Jewish homeland, and so it must maintain a Jewish majority. They also want it to be a democracy, both liberal and economically strong.

And those goals may be threatened by the two Israeli sub-groups who have the most children — ultra-Orthodox Jews, known as Haredis, and Arabs. The birthrate for Jewish women in Israel is almost 3, whereas it is 3.5 for Arabs and 6.5 for Haredis.

 

Israel’s Bureau of Statistics says that by 2019 a majority of school children will be either ultra-Orthodox or Arab. And these are just the groups whose participation in the work force is low and among whom the poverty rate is high.

High fertility among these groups appears to have created an economic problem that is only exacerbated by state subsidies…

Some studies have indeed shown that subsidies increased the probability of Haredi and Arab women giving birth….

Muslim Arabs and Haredis aren’t dreaming the Zionist dream of a secular Jewish homeland in the land of Israel. And for the Israelis who are, be they secular or Zionist-religious, Arabs make Israel feel less Jewish while Haredis make it feel too Jewish…

like many other Jewish Israelis, I have come to feel alienated from and impatient with Haredis and Arabs. As a result I see less the needs of their children than the burdens they’ve placed on Israel.

84 Responses

  1. Bumblebye
    August 29, 2013, 1:10 pm

    Oops – either the link’s not working, or there’s still problems with the website! (Wonder who’s been monkeying around with it?)

    • Joe Catron
      August 29, 2013, 1:24 pm

      The answer to your question is, I believe, the Syrian Electronic Army:

      link to zdnet.com

      I’m curious: From where are you trying to access the site? I haven’t been able to reach it from Palestine since the day before yesterday, when the SEA attacks happened, although friends in North America seem to be having no trouble now.

      • Bumblebye
        August 29, 2013, 1:31 pm

        I’m in the UK Joe. I heard that the Syrian Electronic Army was being blamed, but how likely is that to be true?

  2. seafoid
    August 29, 2013, 1:14 pm

    ‘And Arab babies make Israel “feel less Jewish'”

    And what is the difference between Rassenschande and “feeling less Jewish” ?

    At the end of the Med
    you’ll always find beaches
    beautiful beaches
    where I meander
    I frequently find myself
    thinking of rank hypocrisy

  3. eljay
    August 29, 2013, 1:20 pm

    >> Almost all Jewish Israelis want the country to remain a Jewish homeland, and so it must maintain a Jewish majority. They also want it to be a democracy, both liberal and economically strong.

    Nothing says “democracy” like despising your minorities and wanting to keep your “homeland” supremacist and pure.

    >> And for the Israelis who are, be they secular or Zionist-religious, Arabs make Israel feel less Jewish while Haredis make it feel too Jewish…

    Finding just the right balance of Jewish supremacism is a tough gig… :-(

    • seafoid
      August 29, 2013, 2:58 pm

      “Nothing says “democracy” like despising your minorities and wanting to keep your “homeland” supremacist and pure.”

      Nothing says “Jewish self determination” like that. Obviously Haredi Jews should not have any self determination.

    • Pamela Olson
      August 30, 2013, 1:37 pm

      “Almost all Jewish Israelis want the country to remain a Jewish homeland, and so it must maintain a Jewish majority.”

      Try this on for size: “Almost all Southern whites favor segregation, and so segregation must continue.”

      “Almost all Afrikaaners favor apartheid, and so apartheid must be strengthened.”

      At least this racist a-hole is an honest racist a-hole.

      • hophmi
        August 30, 2013, 1:55 pm

        “Try this on for size: ‘Almost all Southern whites favor segregation, and so segregation must continue.'”

        Try this on for size. Almost all Arabs support Muslim states, but not Jewish ones.

        Try this on for size. There are 22 Arab states and 1 Jewish state. Guess which state is the most diverse in the region.

        Try this on for size. Arabs in Israel have greater rights than anywhere else in the Middle East.

        Try this on for size. European whites talk about the Muslims in Europe as a threat to European culture.

        Try this on for size. American conservatives lament the rise in the Hispanic population on a regular basis, despite the fact that there is no conflict between whites and Hispanics, and Hispanics pose zero threat.

        Try this on for size. The world is filled with ethnic states that are on average far less diverse than Israel.

        Try this on for size. The outcome of the Balkan Wars was a collection of small ethnic states like Kosovo and Serbia.

        Try this on for size – you’re a giant hypocrite who applies a double standard to Jews and Israelis that you don’t apply to your fellow Americans.

  4. bilal a
    August 29, 2013, 1:52 pm

    some one else had an issue with Arab babies

    Baruch Goldstein In the New York JDL, a remembrance of a shy young tall Jew before alli’ah to Israel, at the 23rd st synagogue

    A Hero. “Hashem yi KOm de no . May G_d avenge his blood”

  5. James Canning
    August 29, 2013, 1:59 pm

    Years ago, many Palestinians did not regard themselves as “Arabs”. So, NYT does not like too many Christians or Muslims getting born in Israel?
    Israel might well benefit from having a few hundred thousand Buddhists.

  6. subconscious
    August 29, 2013, 2:08 pm

    On the other hand, some mass media outlets are now uncharacteristically providing more balanced discussions of the occupation. NY metro’s PBS station, Ch. 13, the largest in the country, recently featured “The Law in These Parts” & “5 Borken Cameras,” along w/ director interviews and panel discussions representing the “2 sides.” The 2 movies can be viewed at their website for a limited time (will be removed sometime in Sep.).

    The links …
    The Law …
    Discussion of “The Law”
    “The Law” director interview
    “5 Cameras”
    Discussion of “5 Cameras”
    “5 Cameras” director interview
    (The connections for these links may be intermittent.)

    The most hilarious of the panelists is the confrontational Brooke Goldstein of the LawFare Project in the 5-Cameras discussion, who even gets on the moderator’s nerves. She starts off by claiming that 200 Israeli soldiers have been killed in the violent Bil’in protests, brandishing photos of some alleged victims. Later on, she talks about “innocent 18 or 19 year old Israeli soldiers who are there peacefully” being provoked by violent rock-throwing Palestinian kids, who are used as human shields by their elders. Goldstein also accuses Huwaida Arraf, also on the panel, and her International Solidarity Movement of praising suicide bombings and of being in bed w/ Hamas & Islamic Jihad. And the evidence for all this, she claims, “is on the internet.” As if …

    • AlGhorear
      August 29, 2013, 6:44 pm

      @subconscious Thanks for posting the links. I just watched 5 Broken Cameras and it’s truly an outstanding film. Now I plan to watch the rest of the videos.

  7. piotr
    August 29, 2013, 2:09 pm

    This article can be also accessed at the NYT website. This is a small cite:

    The main reason for this support [for people having children] is obvious: The Jewish people are small in number, and Israel is a small country surrounded by many enemies.

    And yet, under a cut implemented last week, my household will now receive just under $140 a month in state subsidies for my four children, down from $250 a month.

    Why? Because Israel’s concerns about demographics aren’t just about quantity. Almost all Jewish Israelis want the country to remain a Jewish homeland, and so it must maintain a Jewish majority. They also want it to be a democracy, both liberal and economically strong.

    And those goals may be threatened by the two Israeli sub-groups who have the most children — ultra-Orthodox Jews, known as Haredis, and Arabs. The birthrate for Jewish women in Israel is almost 3, whereas it is 3.5 for Arabs and 6.5 for Haredis.

    I did not figure out if Haredi women count as “Jewish women” or not. Neither could I figure out how children can make a country bigger or decrease the number of enemies. Or which children do and which do not.

    • seafoid
      August 29, 2013, 2:58 pm

      “Israel is a small country surrounded by many enemies.”

      Does any other country talk about itself like this?

      • piotr
        August 29, 2013, 3:10 pm

        I know one country that is kind of surrounded by enemies, Paraguay surrounded by the former participants of Triple Alliance. Google “War of the Triple Aliance”. Clearly, Paraguay survives only because does not attack the neighbors anymore. Actually, Bolivia had a similarly sad experience with the neighbors, and afterwards Bolivia and Paraguay had a war which was truly exemplary: no atrocities with civilian victims, AFAIK, all legal rules of war were observed (but many soldiers died of thirst as they were fighting in a waterless region).

        Armenia is sandwiched between Azerbaijan and Turkey but somehow Armenians do not complain much, even though the country is clearly close to war footing.

      • seafoid
        August 29, 2013, 3:33 pm

        But does Armenia constantly harp on about enemies?

      • miriam6
        August 30, 2013, 12:18 pm

        But does Armenia constantly harp on about enemies?

        You really are quite the blasé joker, aren’t you Seafoid..

        I suppose it must be very easy for you as an American to be so blasé and super critical of those who do have those troubles.. after all you have actual no enemies on YOUR borders..

        Funnily enough, the Armenians also have their own woes concerning population growth , or in their case the lack thereof.

        Of course, losing almost a million of their people to genocide at the hands of the Turks will have rather a depopulating effect…

        A genocide the Turks have STILL not owned up to

        Nor paid compensation for either, not to my knowledge anyway.

        Nobody show this article to Shmuel Rosner , either for god’s sake!

        It certainly wouldn’t cheer him up any

        Recently Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili openly declared that “Azerbaijan’s enemy is our enemy.”
        No one has any doubts that the target of that announcement was Armenia.

        During the Genocide, honorable Armenian women jumped to their deaths in the Euphrates River, to avoid being raped by Turks. Today, young Armenian women are crossing the same river into Turkey for prostitution.

        Recently, Prof. Gerard Libaridian published an in-depth article in the Armenian press, sounding an alarm over the population decrease in Armenia.

        It was titled “Appeal: Critical Moment in Armenian History.” It is no secret to anyone where Libaridian stands in the administration-opposition equation. Hopefully, his alarm will not be viewed within that context, because his voice comes from the very depth of our history. His theory is that Armenians can survive dictatorships, genocide, earthquake, war and any other calamity, but they cannot survive after the depopulation of the homeland.

        Today, with brain drain and depopulation, Armenia has reached a critical point, after which it will not be able to sustain a government nor defend its borders.Even those still living in Armenia cannot contribute to the population growth as indicated by a sociologist study. The statistics are as follows: 68.3 percent of the families do not wish to have a child; 16.4 percent plan to have only one child and 13.6 percent have no answer. Among the reasons cited, economy is rated first.

        Citing a historic precedent, Libaridian writes: “Our numbers had fallen below a certain threshold, to a level that had made Armenian revolution against the state of the Ottoman Empire impossible and successful self-defense against the Genocide by and large, hopeless. …Nearly a century later, we may now be reaching a similar threshold in the Republic of Armenia, where the decreasing level of population closely linked to the unresolved conflicts with the neighbors that is threatening the viability of the economy and national defense.”Turks, Azeris and Georgians are Armenia’s enemies and they wish to wipe out Armenia from the map. Armenians have withstood that pressure for 20 years now, and maybe they can resist longer. But what about the enemy within?

        link to mirrorspectator.com

        And check out the ‘cute’ little poem one Armenian child can recite..

        “It’s better that I be a dog or a cat, than a Turkish Barbarian . . . ”
        The poem promises that “when the Armenian wind blows, it will not leave a single Turk standing in Armenian land.”

        Edna’s father asks again about the Azerbaijanis. She says: “They are killing Armenians again, they are torturing them.”

        Cont…

        link to articles.latimes.com

      • piotr
        August 30, 2013, 12:28 pm

        Actually, you can see “constant harping on about enemies” on Armenian websites but “we”, Americans etc. do not care. What is highly peculiar is not how Israel behaves but Western attitude to it.

      • RoHa
        August 29, 2013, 10:09 pm

        Japanese frequently refer to Japan as a small country, even when I start listing a bunch of countries which are a lot smaller in area and population. Not inclined to complain about being surrounded by enemies, though.

    • RoHa
      August 29, 2013, 10:12 pm

      “The main reason for this support [for people having children] is obvious: The Jewish people are small in number,”

      But why should there be more of them?

      ” and Israel is a small country surrounded by many enemies.”

      Aaaawww! And why does poor wickle Israel have all those nasty enemies around it?

  8. James Canning
    August 29, 2013, 2:10 pm

    @piotr – – Article should note, perhaps, that Israel is “surrounded” by enemies because Israel spurned repeated offer of peace from all Arab countries.

    • miriam6
      August 30, 2013, 11:45 am

      Canning said;

      @piotr – – Article should note, perhaps, that Israel is “surrounded” by enemies because Israel spurned repeated offer of peace from all Arab countries.

      In the first instance , you seem to be suffering from amnesia…

      Remember the Camp David accords ?

      You know , Israel’s peace treaty with Egypt?

      Plus Israel’s peace treaty with Jordan?

      Is it all coming back to you now?

      James the 2002 Saudi peace plan was dead in the water because of the cycle of violence the 2nd intifada launched.

      Tell me, you hypocrite, what did America did in the wake of 9/11?

      Did it choose peace?

      It instead chose to bomb and invade Afghanistan.

      Then it bombed and invaded Iraq

      Whilst remaining chummy pals with Saudi Arabia, – DESPITE the fact that all but two of the 9/11 hijackers CAME from Saudi Arabia..

      But, hypocrite that you are, you imagine that Israel, suffering a nihilistic suicide bombing campaign, would actually be in the mood for a peace plan?

      Besides, the downside of the Saudi Plan is that it was all vanity and actually it left all the hard work of actual NEGIOTIONS to one side.

      Here are some articles acknowledging that the timing of the Saudi plan was way off;

      Though intriguing and significant, a Saudi statement promising “full normalization” in exchange for the demands set out by Abdullah is almost surely not relevant in today’s geopolitical context.
      Regrettably, it is at least 19 months too late – and probably six to seven years past the time when it could have made a difference in the peace diplomacy… Today, the dynamic has changed fundamentally. After 17 months of intifada-cum-guerrilla war, it is difficult to imagine that the Israelis are contemplating any incremental territorial concessions to Palestinians because of the attraction of “normalization” with Saudi Arabia. Robert Satloff , Middle East Times, Egypt.

      link to theguardian.com

      Second, the timing of the plan is significant. It comes at one of the worst periods in decades between the Arab world and Israel, given Israel’s violent military campaign through the occupied territories in its search for elusive terrorists. That Israel is suffering from a terrorist problem is beyond question. The attacks, deliberately aimed at civilians, have been appalling and have contributed to driving many Jews into a mode of existential racial fear that everyone had hoped was long behind them. Most damaging of all, the second intifada,and especially the suicide bombings of the past few months, have dealt a devastating blow to the Israeli left, marginalizing it for some time to come. Without a vigorous Israeli left, there will be no peace. That Palestinians have been suffering at least as much as Israelis, with far greater losses, damage to their homes and welfare, is completely true, but it cannot in any way diminish the fact of Israeli suffering as well, which has its own serious consequences.

      link to mepc.org

  9. seafoid
    August 29, 2013, 2:55 pm

    “like many other Jewish Israelis, I have come to feel alienated from and impatient with Haredis and Arabs. As a result I see less the needs of their children than the burdens they’ve placed on Israel.”

    I read somewhere (might have been the New York Review) recently that by 2025 Orthodox and 1948 Palestinian births will account for 50% of all births in Israel.

    • MHughes976
      August 29, 2013, 4:27 pm

      If I said ‘Like many other white English people I have come to feel alienated from Jews and Pakistanis and see less need for them to receive child benefit’ I would be excluded from polite society, I think. I certainly wouldn’t cherish hopes of getting my views into a major newspaper.

      • seafoid
        August 30, 2013, 8:14 am

        That would be obscene in the UK but Israel has been on a different track since its inception. So much more is sayable in Hebrew, unfortunately.

        I was reading the Oxford reading tree books about “Biff and Chip: to one of the kids last night. Biff has an Asian friend called Aneena.

        I don’t imagine Israeli Jewish kids learning to read see pictures of Palestinians who are friendly with Jews.

      • Citizen
        August 31, 2013, 10:12 am

        @ seafoid
        There was a short film called The House I Live In, made in 1945, starring a young Frank Sinatra. In the film Frank’s character sees a bunch of dead end type city kids chasing a Jewish kid down the block, and he confronts them, and gives them a patriotic lecture on American tolerance, telling them every American kid is equally valuable, shouldn’t be picked on, etc. America is home to a great variety of ethnic, racial, religious groups, all equally valuable. It was an early form of using film entertainment for diversity purposes.

  10. just
    August 29, 2013, 3:30 pm

    Uh, perhaps the “good” Jewish women of Israel should get “busy”. Have a little whine and get down, you know. Or, perhaps Rosner should blame the “good” Jewish men, like himself. Perhaps both “good” genders could take lessons from the Haredis.

    Now is he p.o.’d by Christian Arab Israelis or Muslim Arab Israelis? Does it matter? How is 3.5 children that much of a threat to his 3?

    What an idiot. It’s sooooo incredibly unbelievable– aren’t Haredis Jewish?

    • irishmoses
      August 29, 2013, 5:48 pm

      Not sure if “getting down” would quite do the trick, so to speak. After all, we’re talking productivity here, not mere pleasure. Maybe all those liberal Tel Avivians need to focus more on the missionary, uh mission.

  11. Bumblebye
    August 29, 2013, 3:48 pm

    He just don’t dare to come right out and call it ‘demographic warfare’, eh!
    “Make love not….”, uh oh, reproduction – the new war!

  12. DICKERSON3870
    August 29, 2013, 3:55 pm

    RE: “Some studies have indeed shown that subsidies increased the probability of Haredi and Arab women giving birth….” ~ Rosner (from above)
    AND RE: Births among Arabs and Haredis remain high, but they have declined in recent years, possibly because of a previous round of cuts in subsidies.” ~ Shmuel Rosner (excerpted by me from the Rosner’s IHT article)

    MY COMMENT: Shmuel Rosner appears to be a modern-day Joan Peters.
    He writes that “[b]irths among Arabs and Haredis have declined in recent years, possibly because of a previous round of cuts in subsidies.” But if you click on the article about the “previous round of cuts in subsidies”, the article only deals with cuts in Israeli subsidies to Haredis (not to “Arabs”). Rosner deceptively gives the impression that Israel provides subsidies to the “Arabs” in Israel.

    • DICKERSON3870
      August 29, 2013, 4:36 pm

      P.S. I might have unfairly accused Rosner!

      SEE: “Cuts to haredi sector yield mixed results”, By Jeremy Sharon, Jerusalem Post, 8/15/13
      State support for yeshivas, child allotments, periphery housing slashed, but other benefits are not tied to joining the workforce.

      [EXCERPTS] . . . One of the most significant cutbacks has been made to the budget for higher yeshivas for post-high school students and married men.
      The official budget stood at NIS 909 million, although various add-ons increased it to as much as NIS 1.2 billion a year.
      The new budget has cut this figure down to NIS 649m. for 2013 and NIS 422m. for 2014.
      Another big cut has been made to grants provided for those buying a home in provincial areas away from the main urban centers.
      At the beginning of November the government will cancel a grant of NIS 100,000 that has hitherto been given to anyone buying a home in one of 30 towns around the country, including the new planned city of Harish, just east of Hadera, and a new neighborhood called Har Yona in Upper Nazareth. Both locales were being constructed principally for the haredi sector. Cancellation of the grant for these two projects alone has cut half a billion shekels from the budget according to Hiddush.
      Budget cuts to child allotments have also been implemented.
      Before 2003, a fourth child and higher in any given family was eligible for a larger allotment than the first three, on an increasing scale for every further child born to that family.
      This greatly benefited haredi, as well as Arab, families who generally have more children than the average Israeli household.
      The increasing scale for child allotments was abolished for children born after June 2003 . . .

      ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to jpost.com

      • DICKERSON3870
        August 30, 2013, 12:03 am

        P.P.S. ALSO SEE: “Demonizing and conflating Arabs and ultra-Orthodox”, By Dahlia Scheindlin, 972mag.com, 8/29/13
        The debate over recent child subsidy cuts rests on empty myths and demagogic misinterpretations of Arabs and Haredim. They are not simply parasites and they are not the same, but Israeli journalist Shmuel Rosner is upset and that’s what matters.
        LINK – link to 972mag.com

  13. Justpassingby
    August 29, 2013, 4:07 pm

    Another racist article, if an arab wrote the same about jews,..thats stuff wouldnt even been posted by nyt.

  14. hophmi
    August 29, 2013, 4:10 pm

    You’re being totally deceitful. The piece is clearly as much, if not more, about haredim as it about Arabs. Both are demographic groups with high birth rates. Acknowledging that fact completely undermines your argument that the piece is racist.

    ” And the need for both Haredis and Arabs to join the work force and better integrate into Israeli society is real, even urgent.”

    Yeah, that’s a racist POV, advocating further integration of Arabs and Haredim into the Israeli workforce.

    • Philip Weiss
      August 29, 2013, 4:46 pm

      But Hophmi if an Egyptian Muslim, say, did a piece saying, I don’t like so many Islamic fundamentalists and Jews in my country, wouldn’t it be right to seize on the anti-Jewish attitude as offensive? Phil

      • yrn
        August 29, 2013, 5:31 pm

        Phil

        As usual a very bad example, as the Egyptians solved the issue by cleansing the Jews from Egypt and just kicked them all out, so problem solve.
        But as usual you will find a good excuse that the Jews were to blame.

      • hophmi
        August 29, 2013, 5:59 pm

        That depends. Do the Jews talk about how if they have enough babies, they’ll be able to take over Egypt? Are they part of a neighboring state-in-waiting with few Jews that talks the same way? Context matters, no? The fact that there is basically no Jewish community left in Egypt is sort of relevant in this discussion, is it not?

        Shmuel Rosner is saying I want less Arab babies because I’m afraid I’ll be a minority and I don’t like what has happened to Jews when they’re a minority in the Middle East. That’s a little base, particularly to liberal American ears, but it’s certainly not out of character in the Middle East, which is a pretty tribal place. At the same time, he’s saying, hey, maybe if we get rid of these very generous welfare policies, you know, the ones where the big bad Jewish state is giving subsidies to Arab families and to Jewish ones, Arabs will be more likely to join the workforce, get out of poverty, and become better integrated in society, and then maybe, people will get along better. Shmuel’s not thinking like a guy who wants to get rid of the Arabs. He’s speaking like a guy who wants them to stay and be part of the society, even if he doesn’t speak with regard for American liberal sensibilities.

    • eljay
      August 29, 2013, 5:05 pm

      >> Yeah, that’s a racist POV, advocating further integration of Arabs and Haredim into the Israeli workforce.

      I see you left out the part where “Arabs” are expected to integrate into “Israeli society”.

      When people suggest Jews should integrate into the societies of the countries in which they live as citizens with full equality, guys like you scream “Assimilation!” and wail and moan about its evils.

      Yet here you are purposely ignoring / downplaying the expectation that “Arabs” should assimilate into Israeli society, which necessarily means becoming second-class citizens in a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

      • hophmi
        August 29, 2013, 6:02 pm

        “I see you left out the part where “Arabs” are expected to integrate into ‘Israeli society'”

        Um, no, I didn’t.

        “When people suggest Jews should integrate into the societies of the countries in which they live as citizens with full equality, guys like you scream “Assimilation!” and wail and moan about its evils.”

        Oh please. This is about Arabs joining the workforce, not about Arabs “assimilating.”

        “Yet here you are purposely ignoring / downplaying the expectation that ‘Arabs’ should assimilate into Israeli society, which necessarily means becoming second-class citizens in a religion-supremacist ‘Jewish State’.”

        Again, nowhere has anyone talked about assimilation. This is about Arabs joining Israeli society as equals, and part of that entails getting out of poverty and joining the workforce.

      • RoHa
        August 29, 2013, 9:42 pm

        I’d be all in favour of Arabs integrating into Israeli society, provided they are treated as equals. They may bring some of that old-style Arabic courtesy to what I am told is a pretty rude society.

      • Djinn
        August 29, 2013, 11:18 pm

        I really think Hophmi has normalized racism so much that he truly can’t see it anymore. I doubt this will help open his eyes but here goes:

        “Almost all CHRISTIAN AUSTRALIANS want the country to remain a CHRISTIAN homeland, and so it must maintain a CHRISTIAN majority. They also want it to be a democracy, both liberal and economically strong.

        And those goals may be threatened by the two AUSTRALIAN sub-groups who have the most children —FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS and JEWS. The birthrate for CHRISTIAN women in AUSTRALIA is almost X whereas it is Y for JEWS and Z for FUNDIES.

        AUSTRALIA’S Bureau of Statistics says that by 2019 a majority of school children will be either FUNDIES or JEWS. And these are just the groups whose participation in the work force is low and among whom the poverty rate is high.

        High fertility among these groups appears to have created an economic problem that is only exacerbated by state subsidies…

        Some studies have indeed shown that subsidies increased the probability of FUNDIES and JEWISH women giving birth….

        JEWS and FUNDIES aren’t dreaming the COLONIAL dream of a secular CHRISTIAN homeland in the land of AUSTRALIA. And for the AUSTRALIANS who are, be they secular or COLONIAL-religious, JEWS make AUSTRALIA feel less CHRISTIAN while FUNDIES make it feel too CHRISTIAN…

        like many other CHRISTIAN AUSTRALIANS, I have come to feel alienated from and impatient with FUNDIES and JEWS. As a result I see less the needs of their children than the burdens they’ve placed on AUSTRALIA.”

      • hophmi
        August 30, 2013, 10:49 am

        I tire of people who make these kinds of ridiculous comparisons. Australia is a big, sparsely populated island with zero security threats. Oh, right, it displaced and persecuted the aboriginal population to get to where it is today.

        There are about five dozen Christian homelands on this earth already, Djinn, including Australia. Why would there be a need to proclaim what is already true? Do you suggest that white Christian Europeans do not worry, openly, about the effect of large Muslim populations on the continent?

    • Woody Tanaka
      August 29, 2013, 5:18 pm

      Baloney, hoppy. The parts of Rosner’s article about the Arabs are racist to the core. Nothing about the Arab birth rate would prevent them from furthering the goal of making the state a liberal democracy and economically strong (aside from the ever present Jewish racism against them, of course). But he specifically paints this minority’s high birth-rate is a threat to the Jewish supremacism he so loves. Racist on its face. Typical zionist, in other words.

      • hophmi
        August 29, 2013, 6:04 pm

        “Nothing about the Arab birth rate would prevent them from furthering the goal of making the state a liberal democracy and economically strong”

        Please detail the long history of Arab liberal democracy in the Middle East.

        There, I’m done.

        You?

        “But he specifically paints this minority’s high birth-rate is a threat to the Jewish supremacism he so loves.”

        He paints the Haredi birth rate as a threat too, and the haredi birthrate is almost twice the Arab one. So I’d say the Arabs are at best a secondary concern.

        I know nuances are very hard for you.

    • Donald
      August 29, 2013, 5:28 pm

      “Acknowledging that fact completely undermines your argument that the piece is racist.”

      No it doesn’t. Earlier Rosner says —

      ” Because Israel’s concerns about demographics aren’t just about quantity. Almost all Jewish Israelis want the country to remain a Jewish homeland, and so it must maintain a Jewish majority. They also want it to be a democracy, both liberal and economically strong.

      And those goals may be threatened by the two Israeli sub-groups who have the most children — ultra-Orthodox Jews, known as Haredis, and Arabs. The birthrate for Jewish women in Israel is almost 3, whereas it is 3.5 for Arabs and 6.5 for Haredis.”

      On the one hand, he thinks these groups pose a threat to Israel as a liberal (choke) democracy. It’s not clear if he thinks all Haredis are a threat or all Arabs, or just the Haredi or just the Arabs or what. The Haredi are, I presume, very conservative, but are all Arabs? Or just Muslim Arabs or what? It’s not clear what he means here.

      But he’s also concerned about maintaining that Jewish majority–he doesn’t want to do it with the Haredi and their high birth rate, because they are conservative, so that means those darn Arabs need to breed less.

      • hophmi
        August 29, 2013, 6:09 pm

        “The Haredi are, I presume, very conservative, but are all Arabs? Or just Muslim Arabs or what? It’s not clear what he means here.”

        You tell me. I think that the bigger the family, the more conservative the family. Rosner is an Ashkenazi moderate; and if he’s typical, he’s more worried about the haredim than he is about the Arabs.

      • Woody Tanaka
        August 29, 2013, 7:50 pm

        “Rosner is an Ashkenazi moderate”

        No he isn’t. He’s a conservative; right of center. (Unless everything left of “fascist” counts as “moderate” in israel…)

      • Hostage
        August 30, 2013, 8:46 am

        You tell me.

        Okay, all that’s needed to initiate a riot in Israel is to make Sephardic Haredim and Askenazi Haredim sit together in the same classroom. They’re worse xenophobes than Shmuel Rosner when it comes to “foreign” Jewish cultures, i.e. they are “too Jewish” link to cnn.com

    • irishmoses
      August 29, 2013, 6:19 pm

      OK Hop, how about this one?
      “Our country would be much better off if all those Blacks, Hispanics, Mormons, and Jews had fewer babies”. Since it covers all the ethnic, racial and religious bases, that statement couldn’t possibly have racist, anti-Hispanic or anti-Semitic overtones, right? No, wrong.
      If high societal birth rates are a valid issue, then the proper statement would be, “We need to educate our teen-aged children on the societal and personal benefits of having fewer children.” And/or, “We need to modify our social welfare programs to provide less incentive for having large families.”
      If high birthrates are the issue, you try to lower high birthrates throughout the population unless you feel your society has just too many of those pesky Arabs, Blacks, Hispanics, Mormons, Jews… pick your own favorite undesirable group.
      Rosner seems to prefer an all or mostly Tel Aviv liberal Jewish Israel. I’m not sure there’s much to be done about the Haredis, but increasing the welfare and education benefits to Israeli Arabs by a factor of 10 to make them equal to those provided Jewish Israelis might do wonders for Israel’s Arab citizens, a likely byproduct of which would be significantly lower birthrates. Changing those 30 some laws that discriminate against Israeli Arab citizens would also help by providing them equal opportunity and equal access. Ah, but I’m naive. If Israel were to do all those things like treating its Arab citizens equally, that would just reduce Israel’s attractiveness as a Jewish State and homeland for the world’s Jews.

      • James Canning
        August 29, 2013, 7:37 pm

        To me, problem is that mothers least qualified to raise children often have the most children.

      • piotr
        August 30, 2013, 12:13 am

        From what I have read, employment opportunities for women have key impact on fertility rates. If Knesset majority had any brains (and they do not), they would abandon plans to draft Haredi to IDF and Arabs to “national service” and settlement expansion, and concentrate on education and employment for the poorest “sectors”.

      • seafoid
        August 30, 2013, 9:21 am

        They can either spend the money on their disadvantaged sectors or on the settlers and the settlers have the power so they always get the money. This self determination lark is actually less easy than it looks. It requires strategic capacities that Israel does not seem to have.

    • piotr
      August 29, 2013, 8:19 pm

      So we have two “semi-ecumenical” labels in circulation:

      Leftists and Islamofascist

      Arabs and Haredim

    • RoHa
      August 29, 2013, 10:21 pm

      “Yeah, that’s a racist POV, advocating further integration of Arabs and Haredim into the Israeli workforce.”

      But as I understand it (and I probably don’t) Haredim are not supposed to work. Wouldn’t integrating them into the workforce be an attack on their “identity” or something?

  15. Marco
    August 29, 2013, 5:09 pm

    Frankly, Rosner includes Haredis in his racist editorial mostly to distract from his real concern, the fertility rate of Palestinians.

    I have no doubt he has some animus towards Haredis, but let’s be real.

    There’s no way he’s equally concerned about the birth rate of both Haredi Jews and Palestinian Muslims and Christians. Yet the framing of the article could give you that impression.

    Rosner knows that American audiences may be uneasy with him saying outright that we have to stop the gentiles from breeding in Israel, but that’s basically his message.

  16. Woody Tanaka
    August 29, 2013, 5:25 pm

    Funny. I can’t imagine the NY Times printing the following:

    Almost all White Americans want the country to remain a White homeland, and so it must maintain a White majority. They also want it to be a democracy, both liberal and economically strong.

    And those goals may be threatened by the two Americans sub-groups who have the most children — Hispanics and Blacks.

    Yet let the racism roll for another country and all is a-okay…

  17. hophmi
    August 29, 2013, 6:14 pm

    “Frankly, Rosner includes Haredis in his racist editorial mostly to distract from his real concern, the fertility rate of Palestinians.”

    Then you don’t understand much about Israeli society. A guy like Rosner is more worried about the haredim than the Arabs. At least within the 1967 borders, the Palestinians pose little real demographic threat, but the haredim pose a big one.

    ‘Rosner knows that American audiences may be uneasy with him saying outright that we have to stop the gentiles from breeding in Israel, but that’s basically his message.”

    I fully understand how some American liberals could be offended by what he says, but if one of says that overly generous welfare policies perpetuate poverty in urban neighborhoods, we’re saying exactly the same thing in euphemism.

    There is no doubt in my mind that Rosner is more worried about haredim than about Arabs. Haredim are having children in far greater numbers, and they have far more political power, and thus far more potential to wreak havoc on the system.

    • Woody Tanaka
      August 29, 2013, 7:47 pm

      “There is no doubt in my mind that Rosner is more worried about haredim than about Arabs.”

      So what? His attack on Arabs for having the gall to commit the crime of reproduction-while-Arab was pure racism regardless of who he is more worried about.

      • Krauss
        August 30, 2013, 2:04 am

        Disappointed that you even consider hophmi’s lies, Woody. You can do better.

        Rosner includes the Haredim because otherwise he gets outed as the Jewish supremacist that he is, just like hophmi.
        The Haredim can be integrated, although it takes a lot of work. But the important aspect about them is that they’re Jewish.

        The Arabs are a mortal, demographic threat to a Jewish supremacist the same way any non-white person is to a white supremacist.

        By the way, amusing that this story ran on the frontpage of the NYT today:
        link to nytimes.com

        A small town of 24 in the middle of nowhere and the NYT splashes it on the front page. Meanwhile, a lot of people in America support full-blown apartheid in Israel but they don’t get any hard questions.

        Maybe it’s just me, but the threat from a ‘white takeover’ is over, primarily because of demographics. That’s why they’re fleeing to North Dakota. They realize they lost. But the NYT is still stuck in the 1950s, 1960s.

        Jewish supremacism, which is directed at non-whites in another Western country, just isn’t that interesting.
        That they even ran with Rosner’s Jewish Supremacist sewer of an article speaks volumes about their double standard.

        I am continually amazed how you can get away with racist supremacism depending upon your religion and/or ethnicity.

      • hophmi
        September 1, 2013, 6:01 pm

        Krauss, you apparently know diddly squat about Israel and Israelis. Because if you did, you’d know that non-haredi Jewish Israelis view the haredim as a bigger threat to Israeli culture than they do the Arabs.

    • Patrick
      August 30, 2013, 4:00 am

      “At least within the 1967 borders, the Palestinians pose little real demographic threat, …”

      This notion of a demographic threat is racist. Such a discourse may be acceptable in Israel, but let’s imagine a prominent writer coming out in the US and writing that, say, African Americans posed little demographic threat. He would be denounced by all sides as a racist. The different reactions point to the fundamental difference between a liberal democracy and an ethnocracy.

      • Walid
        August 30, 2013, 5:30 am

        Patrick, racist demographic concern is a reality that exists in all societies, countries, cities and neighbourhoods. It’s not nice but it’s a reality. Here being discussed are the concerns of secular Israelis about both Arab and Haredi population forecasts. The Turks, Syrians, Iraqis and Iranians have problems with their Kurdish populations. Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are having big problems with their Syrian refugees that compounded their problems with their Palestinian refugees. The list is long and no country is spared from its ugliness. Israel is no different, not better and not worse than the rest. Think of the concerns the Europeans are now having about their Muslim populations and where they are headed.

      • seafoid
        August 30, 2013, 8:49 am

        Walid

        The Muslim debate in Europe is nowhere near the systematic nature of racism in Israel. Israel is far worse than the rest. It has pogroms, mainstream politicians abusing minorities, an army of internet warriors spewing anti minority hate, denial of voting and citizenship to minorities etc. And it calls itself a democracy.

        Kurdistan is a different issue.

      • Walid
        August 30, 2013, 9:42 am

        “The Muslim debate in Europe is nowhere near the systematic nature of racism in Israel. ”

        The degree is different in Europe or in the US, seafoid, but it’s still there nonetheless. We’ve discussed the plight of Muslims in NYC a couple of times here. Racism takes on different forms and it’s also present all over Arab countries begining with the living conditions in the Palestinian refugee camps.

      • seafoid
        August 30, 2013, 9:48 am

        Racism in most of the OECD countries is taken as seriously as homophobia. Maybe the US is an outlier in this respect.

        I think Europe learnt a lot from the experience of the Jews in WW2.

      • Walid
        August 30, 2013, 10:13 am

        I think the lesson they learned was to not do it to the Jews but that it’s still OK to do it to others. Speaking of the OECD, since Israel is a member since 2010, how is it that it’s getting away with its racism?

        Here’s a cute one you’d like from the OECD agreement that Israel signed. It’s on page 13 of the agreement:

        Nuclear Energy
        Recommendation of the Council concerning the Operation of a Nuclear Power Plant Incident
        Reporting System [C(83)6]

        Observation: “Currently there are no nuclear power plants in Israel. As a party to the 1986 Convention on Early Notification of a Nuclear Accident, Israel is committed to the obligation specified therein. Should it become relevant in the future, Israel will be ready to exchange information on safety-related incidents occurring in nuclear power plants, through the operation of the Nuclear Power Plant Incident Reporting System operated by the Nuclear Energy Agency, subject to its national legislation.”

        link to oecd.org

      • Patrick
        August 30, 2013, 12:29 pm

        Walid: “Israel is no different, not better and not worse than the rest.”

        Really? Show me another liberal democracy where it is considered legitimate discourse to advocate the ‘transfer’ of some undesirable segment of the citizenry. Or one where a politician does not meet with opprobrium for racist statements against minorities.

        France, of course, does have Jean Marie Le Pen. But he is considered beyond the pale. Naftali Bennett is not in Israel. In fact, he’s part of the government.

    • Walid
      August 30, 2013, 5:11 am

      “A guy like Rosner is more worried about the haredim than the Arabs. ”

      I agree with hophmi on that one. In time, the end of Israel will come but it will not be at the hands of any Arabs. With a birthrate much higher than Palestinian-Israelis and much much higher than Israeli secular Jews, the Haredim with their parasitic lifestyles are the real demographic time bombs that will destroy Israel from within. With the Haredi population exploding, who will be left in Israel to work and support them; or will the US increase its payments to Israel?

      A couple of months back Stanley Fischer, while still Governor of the Bank of Israel talked about this demographic problem:

      “The economy is facing several challenges, which is basically a nice word for ‘problems,’” Fischer told his audience. “Poverty is a central issue. There is intolerable poverty in the hareidi and Arab sectors. It must be dealt with.”

      Hareidi and Arab lifestyles play a large part, he noted, citing low participation in the workforce as an example. However, he said, the state of Israel cannot use that as an excuse, but rather, must encourage adults in those sectors to join the workforce.

      Fischer then made a more controversial statement, “Another problem is the demographic problem. The growth rate in the hareidi population is 4.2%, which means the hareidi population will double within 17 years. The Arab population will double within 25 years, while the rest of the population has a 1.7% growth rate, meaning it will double itself in 40 years.”

      If the trends continue, he warned, secular Israelis will be in the minority within 50 years.
      Polls show that only 20% of Israelis self-define as secular. Fischer was apparently referring to all Israelis who are not religious Muslims or orthodox Jews as secular.

      link to israelmatzav.blogspot.com

      • seafoid
        August 30, 2013, 8:52 am

        @ Walid
        “the Haredim with their parasitic lifestyles” is very offensive

        Why didn’t the secular Jews integrate the haredim into the workforce? This sort of challenge needs time, effort and a lot of money. Israel spent it on YESHA. Now they attack the Haredim. I think it’s outrageous. Do Haredi girls have any choices in life ? Is it their fault?

      • Walid
        August 30, 2013, 9:30 am

        Seafoid, my understanding of those that I called parasitic is that they refuse to work and refuse to serve in the army and that they devote their lives to studying religion and not because Israel had refused to integrate them into the workforce. Of course this isn’t to say that I’m saying that all Haredim fall in that category but simply that a lot of them do. I actually worked for a Haredi-owned company and its owner while he had about 8 children, he was extremely hard working.

        There are Muslim clerics that fall into a like category of studying, preaching and collecting pay for it from the government and that too is outrageous.

      • seafoid
        August 30, 2013, 9:57 am

        Walid

        Ben Gurion made a decision in the late 40s that the Israeli haredim wouldn’t work. Their work was praying. It was a cop out by Ben Gurion.

        Compare the situation to that in the States where Haredim work. It’s all political economy.

        In Israel it’s linked to the haredi education system. The government left it to religious leaders to oversee and most haredi graduates are not fit to work in the knowledge economy. But calling them parasites ignores the political dimension.

        link to haaretz.com

        “Another Central Bureau of Statistics survey asked what subjects were taught in the various educational streams – secular Jewish, state religious, Arab and Haredi. Without even addressing the quality of teaching, the study found that 83% of Haredi elementary schools taught math (versus 100% in all the other streams), with the rate falling to 41% in post-elementary education.

        The same kind of statistics occur in other core subjects, leading to absurdities such as Hebrew being taught in more Israeli-Arab high schools (66.8%) than in Haredi equivalents (42.3%).

        Worse still, these subjects are probably being taught poorly in the Haredi schools. A Haaretz analysis published last week of the nationwide Meitzav examination of school achievement found that 54% of Haredi elementary school students tested in the bottom two deciles. Admittedly, only a small percentage of schools gave the test at all, but given the absence of teaching to begin with it is hard to imagine that the other schools as a group would perform any better.

        But our jobseeker doesn’t know any of this. After all, almost no one else he knows has ever applied for a job and he never got a taste of the bottom rungs of the labor market by working as a waiter or call service drone while a student. He goes from employer to employer with a CV highlighting his lack of experience and education, fails a battery of job tests, refuses to shake hands with his female interviewer and looks at her curiously when she makes a passing reference to some bit of popular culture.
        So our job seeker fails, which would not surprise him if he had seen and understood the statistics.

        The unemployment rate among Haredi men is similar to the rest of the uneducated population. A study by the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies tracked a steady decline in employment rates for men between 35 and 54, with four years of education or less, from 1979 to 2011. The line shows a steady descent for them and Haredi males to less than 50%. The reason, of course, is that neither group has the qualifications to work in a modern economy. Whereas three or four decades ago, you could learn your skills on the job, working today requires a skill set that takes years of preparation in and out of school. The uneducated simply don’t obtain it.
        But all is not lost. His friends and family have found out our young man is looking for a job. By whispers, the word reaches his rabbi about his financial struggles and his desperate attempt to solve them by finding a job. And so strings are pulled and soon the young man finds himself working in the Haredi public sector as a male mikve attendant or shatnes inspector at a concrete plant. He’s collecting a salary of sorts and enters the statistics as a gainfully employed Haredi male.

        In doing so he joins the great majority of Haredim who are working in the public sector. Among non-Haredi Jews, 68.8 percent worked in the business sector, while among Haredim the numbers were no more than 25 percent. The high rate of public sector employment among Haredim suggests there is a lot of make-up work going on.
        There may be fewer Haredim crowding into the workplace today than there were Russians 20 years ago, and Israel’s economy today is undoubtedly much larger. But the Russians came with the professional and social skills a modern labor market demands; the Haredim won’t find it nearly as easy.”

      • Walid
        August 30, 2013, 10:25 am

        Thanks, seafoid, picked up a lot from the article. It’s sad but it takes us back to what Stanley Fischer was saying about poverty being the central issue with Haredim and Arabs and that the state must integrate them into the workforce. but the Haaretz article is saying that even if they decided to work, they still can’t because they don’t have the capacity to.

      • seafoid
        August 30, 2013, 10:31 am

        They have to change the education system but that is the source of Shas power so good luck with that. Shas has a vested interest in keeping haredim locked into their worldview. It is not the fault of individual haredim. It’s a system issue.

        Israel has serious issues with poverty BTW. There was an article in Ha’aretz recently about teenage prostitution and 13 and 14 years old Jewish girls selling their bodies to buy cool consumer gear like phones and ipods.

        We don’t hear much about poverty in Israel from AIPAC> obviously the IDF needs the money for weapons.

    • yrn
      August 30, 2013, 11:17 am

      hophmi

      Why interfere in the flow of this high intellectual knowledgeable discussion and let us amuse our-self in this in depth analysis of those that hate the society they analyze.
      This is what I call a very amusing authentic balanced Analysis of haters ignorance.

      • Djinn
        September 1, 2013, 5:49 pm

        Why do you want to spend so much time with ignorant haters yrn? Have you nothing better to do? I know I wouldn’t spend ANY time at a place I considered hateful. What exactly is wrong with you?

  18. a blah chick
    August 29, 2013, 7:06 pm

    There is only one reason for the maintenance of a Jewish majority and that is to keep the Ashkenazi elite in power.

    It’s not about culture or tradition or religion it’s about power and keeping the ruling class in power.

    • seafoid
      August 30, 2013, 7:40 am

      Exactly. And they can manipulate the public as they wish.

      link to haaretz.com

      “Psychological research has shown for many decades that human beings are incapable of seeing themselves as bad in the long run. If a group does something that is immoral under a given value system, it cannot in the long run bear the cognitive dissonance. As a result it will tend to change its value system in order to avoid feeling bad, guilty or ashamed.

      The implications for Israel are clear: The longer Israel holds on to the territories, and discriminates against Israeli Arabs the stronger the psychological need to adjust core values, to avoid feeling bad. If Israel has ruled over Palestinians for so long without giving them political rights, the consequence will be to simply say that it is justifiable to discriminate against Arabs.

      This week’s survey is the result of the decade-long rule of the right in Israel: the combination between fear mongering and the settlement project almost inevitably leads to the rise of racism and xenophobia”

      They are moving in the direction of classing the haredim with the Palestinian citizens of Israel.

  19. iResistDe4iAm
    August 30, 2013, 12:33 am

    “Almost all Jewish Israelis want the country to remain a Jewish homeland, and so it must maintain a Jewish majority.” ~ Shmuel Rosner, IHT New York Times

    Almost all [white Americans] want the country to remain a [white] homeland, and so it must maintain a [white] majority.

    Almost all [white South Africans] want the country to remain a [white] homeland, and so it must maintain [white rule].

    • hophmi
      August 30, 2013, 3:01 pm

      Almost all Europeans want their countries to remain European. You do the math.

      • iResistDe4iAm
        September 1, 2013, 10:44 pm

        People in most countries want their country to remain a homeland for their own particular race/ethnicity/religion. But when individuals or groups advocate plans to control others (usually minorities) based on their race, ethnicity or religion, they are rightly condemned.

        Since World War 2 and the liberation of South Africa, there’s only one country in the world that has more than 50 laws (with more proposed laws in the pipeline) that discriminate against a minority of its own citizens in all areas of life, including their rights to political participation, access to land, education, state budget resources, and criminal procedures.
        link to adalah.org

  20. Taxi
    August 30, 2013, 3:36 am

    Rafeef Ziadah’s response to Rosner’s racism:

  21. Ludwig
    August 30, 2013, 12:34 pm

    This article is just as anti-Haredi as anti Arab. Fix your headline. Why are you guys so biased?

  22. a blah chick
    August 30, 2013, 1:50 pm

    I know that Rosner has an image in his mind of a lazy Arab, sitting around his house sucking up welfare checks, watching football on TV while the little woman shuffles about in the kitchen pregnant and no doubt barefoot. She doesn’t work because her man doesn’t want her too.

    But my understanding of the situation is that the low employment of Arab women is related to three things: lack of adequate child care facilities; lack of employment in their communities; lack of adequate transportation to said jobs. These solutions cannot be solved by a community that is denied any power or influence in the government. As always its easier to blame the victims.

  23. iResistDe4iAm
    August 31, 2013, 12:42 am

    This is what a hypothetical “Dear Shmuel” letter may look like:

    Dear Shmuel Rosner,

    As you know, many social and economic benefits in Israel (including government subsidies, public housing and employment) are conditional on military service, but the majority of Israeli Arabs are exempt from military service. This presents Israel with a carrot and stick dilemma, as reducing the level of “carrots” (subsidies) will not work for a group that receives so little to begin with. If Israel wants to modify the behaviour of Arabs before they damage its identity (“make Israel feel less Jewish”), it will need to use even more “sticks” on this demographic than it already does.

    Haredis are also exempt from military service, but at least they’re eligible for extra subsidies, including educational supplements, not available to Arabs. So reducing the Haredi share of “carrots” may work. However, if the reduction in subsidies does not reduce the birth rates of Haredis, then perhaps Israel can try birth control by coercion, which produced outstanding results when used for the Ethiopian Jewish community (an “almost 50-percent decline over the past 10 years in the birth rate”) as reported below:

    link to haaretz.com
    link to news.yahoo.com

    Yours truly,
    another Conflicted Liberal Zionist

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