What if your friend had to die to preserve a Jewish state?

Israel/Palestine
on 188 Comments

On September 9, I rented a car with two American Jewish friends and drove up through settlements in the central West Bank in an effort to taste the settler experience.

As we were leaving Shiloh, we picked up two young hitchhikers headed north– a guy who is about to enter the army and his girlfriend– and I turned on the video camera and asked them the question that plagues me:

If a young person you know will have to die to preserve Israel as a Jewish state, wouldn’t you rather just lose the Jewish state?

The young man’s answer begins a minute in. Among other things he says:

When we don’t have a Jewish country, it’s not one man die, it’s 6 million…

All the history for the Jewish is: We don’t have a country, they kill us. Now we have a country… If one man die, I have to remember, that 6 million died, and my grandfather come here and dream about it, to be in Israel… This is my place. Not Germany, not the United States… I am willing to kill for this country… I do this for the world, not just for Israel.

 

I apologize ahead of time for my performance in the video. I’m not nearly so poised as the young man, I don’t ask the question in the precise manner that I do above. I say that everyone in the car is a Jew; and I point to Allison Deger at the wheel and say that she’s my niece and it’s not worth her dying to preserve a Jewish state. That’s a misrepresentation: She’s not my niece, she’s my niece’s generation.

Nonetheless, the young man and I have a sincere exchange, on what I believe is a vital historical question that Americans should consider.

P.S. Our next stop was Ariel, where I asked a young Russian emigre bartender the same question: Look at all these young people in the bar, one may have to die to preserve the Jewish state, it’s not worth it. He said bluntly, But that is the reality. It’s a Jewish state, and it is going to defend that status. P.S. he is moving to Canada to start a business.

 

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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188 Responses

  1. Kathleen
    September 25, 2013, 2:02 pm

    How about adding a Jewish State based on the internationally recognized border. Most of us can agree that demanding that Israel be Jewish state is not democratic…but do think you should add on “a Jewish state based on the 67 border”

    And really something that that young man uses the Holocaust as an excuse for the Jewish state agenda when Palestinian land was being accessed both legally and illegally for 75 years before the UN made the recommendation for the creation of Palestine and Israel based on borders. That young man clearly either did not know that piece of history or chooses like so many to ignore the history of the Zionist movement.

    • pabelmont
      September 25, 2013, 6:49 pm

      Kathleen, That’s usually my own description (or most of it) of a satisfactory 2SS (territorial component, anyhow), but the BDS folks VERY MUCH ALSO want a non-discriminatory Israel (and Palestine !) and a RoR for all Palestinian refugees. (This is seen in Israel as a demand for Israel to no longer be a “Jewish” state.) (Just sayin’.)

      So, as I understand it, the question as you phrase it makes sense as a question to Israeli Jews, but might seem a bit narrow to Israeli non-Jews or Palestinians in OPTs and diaspora.

      Maybe a different (or follow-up) question might be: Are you willing for a fellow Jew to die to preserve the settlements and Israeli control of Gaza and the West Bank if peace could be achieved without danger to Israel on that basis?

    • Theo
      September 30, 2013, 12:41 pm

      Kathleen

      The only recoignised borders of Israel are the 1948 ones approved by the UN.
      The 1967 lines are illegal, as it is against international laws to wage war, occupy and annex land belonging to others.

  2. Woody Tanaka
    September 25, 2013, 2:14 pm

    I think that this video shows the effect of the type of indoctrination and propaganda which Yoav Shamir highlighted in Defamation, which is leading these people to conclude that the only alternative to an ethno-religious apartheid state is the Holocaust. It’s madness.

    • Shmuel
      September 25, 2013, 3:17 pm

      Exactly, Woody. Phil’s is a very un-Israeli question. The militaristic brainwashing starts in preschool, and culminates with those obscene, trauma-inducing indoctrination visits to the camps.

      For more info on militaristic and militarised education in Israel, see link to newprofile.org

      • Hostage
        September 25, 2013, 4:53 pm

        Phil’s is a very un-Israeli question.

        Agreed. It’s axiomatic that we will eventually die, but traditionally Jews observed and fulfilled the Divine statutes and ordinances so that they might live. In Judaism there’s no obligation to endanger yourself or others in order to maintain a Jewish state of affairs. In fact, multitudes died and the Second Commonwealth came to an end after fanatics launched two “Jewish” revolts.

    • seafoid
      September 25, 2013, 4:26 pm

      Woody

      imagine if Jeffrey Dahmer had been a Zionist

      “I had to eat them, judge, because the alternative was a shoah”

      • miriam6
        September 25, 2013, 9:39 pm

        Military occupation and racial discrimination against Palestinians in Israel not quite frightful enough for you?

        There has to be rampant cannibalism too?!

    • German Lefty
      September 25, 2013, 4:32 pm

      I think that this video shows the effect of the type of indoctrination and propaganda which Yoav Shamir highlighted in Defamation

      I had exactly the same thought.
      Besides, the huge contradiction between the guy’s appearance and his views is really weird. On the one hand, he is very innocent-looking and has a lovely, French-sounding accent. One would think that he would never hurt a fly. On the other hand, he has this shockingly right-wing extremist mindset. German right-wing extremists are much easier to recognise by their appearance. They usually look as violent as their mindset is.
      Also, what I find strange is that the guy says, “This is my place. Not Germany, not the United States.” This sounds as if he would have to relocate if Palestinians were given equal rights. He equates the existence of a Jewish state in historic Palestine with the existence of Jewish life in historic Palestine.

  3. OlegR
    September 25, 2013, 2:21 pm

    I have friends that died to preserve our state.
    I can die just as well the next time shit hits the fan.
    Some things are worth dying for and killing for though i prefer neither.

    Is it worth dying for your country Philip, or your niece dying for it?
    Or can’t you imagine a situation in which you would have to make that choice?

    • Woody Tanaka
      September 25, 2013, 2:34 pm

      Well, hope exists in the world, Oleg.

      And the correct question isn’t whether Phil thinks it is worth him or his niece dying for the US. The correct question is whether it would have been worth it to some random Afrikaner to die for the Apartheid system in control in the 1980s.

    • Marco
      September 25, 2013, 2:41 pm

      When you’re willing to die for a Jewish state, you’re not sacrificing your life for your country.

      You’re making a statement that you’re willing to die to uphold a system of racial and ethnic oppression. You’re saying that you believe Palestinians are so inferior to Jews that you’re willing to shed Jewish blood to ensure that your ethno-religious collective remains on top.

    • Citizen
      September 25, 2013, 2:42 pm

      @ OlegR
      It does not take any imagination to see why a Palestinian might make such a choice.
      Speaking as a former US Army combat engineer grunt, I see no adequate reason why any American soldier has died since the end of WW2.

      I also think every doughboy’s death in WW1 was for nothing adequate.

      • marc b.
        September 25, 2013, 3:42 pm

        that about sums it up rightly, citizen.

      • OlegR
        September 25, 2013, 5:18 pm

        /It does not take any imagination to see why a Palestinian might make such a choice./
        Obviously , it’s only human.

      • Citizen
        September 25, 2013, 8:04 pm

        @ OlegR
        What’s “only human”?

    • edwin
      September 25, 2013, 3:32 pm

      Justice, truth, and freedom are ideas that are worth dying for.

      Judaism, Christianity, Islam – no thanks. Similarly, the US or any other country – no thanks.

      • OlegR
        September 25, 2013, 5:20 pm

        /Justice, truth, and freedom/
        Is too abstract.
        It is Just for Jews to have their own country and their own self determination it what we believe is necessary for our freedom.
        And that’s the truth.

      • Marco
        September 25, 2013, 6:11 pm

        In other words, justice, truth, and freedom are too laden with ethical meaning.

        No, we have to keep it simpler than that.

        It’s merely a matter of blood and soil tribal loyalty.

      • Citizen
        September 25, 2013, 8:08 pm

        @ OlegR
        So, “self-determination” has no limits at all? It’s a blank check to do anything for one’s perceived self-fulfillment? Is that your truth? Similarly, do you believe there are no limits on the sovereignty of any state?

      • amigo
        September 26, 2013, 7:15 am

        “/Justice, truth, and freedom/
        Is too abstract.
        It is Just for Jews to have their own country and their own self determination it what we believe is necessary for our freedom.
        And that’s the truth.”olegless.

        But you are not JUST in your own country.You are preventing other people from having their freedom

        Now that IS the truth.

        You being a criminal racist zio supremacist may someday lose ALL.

        I say , the sooner you are back in Russia the better for the world.

      • Theo
        September 26, 2013, 8:30 am

        OlegR

        “It is Just for Jews to have their own country….”

        Why Oleg? What other religion has its own country, if you discount the Vatican, what is nothing, but the HQ for catholics?

        There is no such thing as a jewish nation, as they come from all over Europe, Africa and Asia, they could not even talk to eachother when first arrived in Palestina, not having a common language. Would it not be better if jews, moslems and christians could live together in peace in a united Palestina, that in my opinion should include Jordan. Jews are the intellectuals of present days and you could make such a land bloom and grow in prosperity, all benefiting in the process.
        On the other hand having a “jewish” state on palestinian real estate and the subjugation of the natives make you a neo-colonist and you never will have peace and a great future. When the USA removes its protecting hands, what will come sooner or later, you just entered the last days of your empire. Going down in flames is a better choice?

    • Shingo
      September 25, 2013, 5:32 pm

      I have friends that died to preserve our state.

      Where and when did he die Oleg? Did he die simply enforcing the occupation?

    • Cliff
      September 25, 2013, 5:39 pm

      OlegR

      You die for your apartheid State.

      We’ll defend and (if need be) die for American democracy, because in spite of American foreign policy, domestically speaking we are one of the most free societies on the planet and throughout history.

      Israel is not a democracy.

      You are dying for Jewish colonialism and privileged status over the indigenous population.

      So I say go for it!

      • OlegR
        September 25, 2013, 5:51 pm

        Some would say that you would be dying for American imperialism
        interventionism and also for the profit of the military industrial complex.

      • Marco
        September 26, 2013, 2:38 am

        Some would say Oleg.

        But everyone would say if you die to uphold a Jewish majority in Israel and the Jewish nature of its state… that you were dying for a racial supremacist ideal.

        Stop beating around the bush, and have the pride, self-dignity, and intellectual integrity to state your position.

      • Citizen
        September 26, 2013, 4:26 am

        @ OlegR
        That’s also true.

  4. eljay
    September 25, 2013, 2:43 pm

    >> Some things are worth dying for and killing for …

    It’s a shame you’ve chosen to die and kill for colonialism, supremacism, injustice and immorality.

  5. seafoid
    September 25, 2013, 2:44 pm

    “I have friends that died to preserve our state.”

    Did they die at Netzarim? I wonder how the parents of the soldiers who died defending Netzarim feel.

    And what is the point of dying for the state if the state collapses anyway?
    The most tragic will be the last person to die for the mistake of apartheid.

    BTW “the state of Israel” always makes me laugh. Look at the state of it.

  6. LanceThruster
    September 25, 2013, 2:50 pm

    Kurtz: I’ve seen horrors… horrors that you’ve seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that… but you have no right to judge me. It’s impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror… Horror has a face… and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies! I remember when I was with Special Forces… seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate some children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn’t see. We went back there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember… I… I… I cried, I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out; I didn’t know what I wanted to do! And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it… I never want to forget. And then I realized… like I was shot… like I was shot with a diamond… a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, my God… the genius of that! The genius! The will to do that! Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we, because they could stand that these were not monsters, these were men… trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love… but they had the strength… the strength… to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men, our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral… and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling… without passion… without judgment… without judgment! Because it’s judgment that defeats us.

    • OlegR
      September 25, 2013, 5:22 pm

      Too much pathos.

      • LanceThruster
        September 25, 2013, 6:09 pm

        So setting childrens’ skin on fire with white phosphorus is just the right amount?

        Thanks for the fine-tuning tip.

  7. Citizen
    September 25, 2013, 2:53 pm

    ” I do this for the world, not just for Israel.”

    How does he explain this statement? How does “the world” benefit?
    Further, aren’t Palestinians part of the world? How do they benefit, most especially?

  8. Krauss
    September 25, 2013, 2:54 pm

    an effort to taste the settler experience

    I’m sure you didn’t mean it to come across as blasé, Phil, but that didn’t sound right even if I know where you stand on the issue. It sounds strangely detached, or even surreal, as if you were at a dinner party tasting expensive cheese.

    But otherwise, great, and important, article.
    I highly treasure these as many mainstream Western outlets censor these kinds of stories for their readers out of fear for political backlash.

  9. Walid
    September 25, 2013, 2:57 pm

    The young lad was answering Phil’s question as if a quiz in a catechism class. I thought only Catholics had those but it seems that there is a catechism for Jews too. The Jonestown crowd was also poised until it was forced to drink the stuff.

    • Shmuel
      September 25, 2013, 3:24 pm

      The young lad was answering Phil’s question as if a quiz in a catechism class.

      Interesting analogy, Walid. He was indeed reciting an article of faith — perhaps the most important in the Zionist credo today. Despite the suddenness of Phil’s question and obvious language difficulties, he recited the lesson perfectly.

      What ever happened to “Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one”?

      • Walid
        September 25, 2013, 4:36 pm

        Shmuel, it seems so much simpler to recite the Muslim credo, the shahada, which is the profession of faith expressing the two simple, fundamental beliefs that make one a Muslim, probaly also another aspect borrowed from Judaism, as you recited it:

        La ilaha illa Allah wa-Muhammad rasul Allah.
        (There is no god but God and Muhammad is the prophet of God)

        As to your “Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one”, it’s still there in the catechism class, in 8.2 given to children:

        7. Into how many divisions is then the whole Jewish Creed divided, as generally accepted among us?

        Into thirteen, which are generally called the Thirteen Fundamental Principles of the Jewish Faith, because upon the admission of them we found the truth and the justness of our lives as Israelites faithful to the law of God.

        8. Please to recite them in the order in which they are found in our books.

        I. I believe with a firm faith that there exists a Creator, who, blessed be his name, has created and governs all his creatures; and that He alone has made, does make, and will make, all things that can by any possibility have existence.

        II. I believe with a firm faith that the Creator is ONE, and there is no unity like Him in any manner, and that He alone is our God, who was, who is, and who will be.

        III. I believe with a firm faith that the blessed Creator is incorporeal; that no bodily infirmities or accidents can reach Him, and that He can be compared to nothing corporeal of which we can form any idea.

        IV. I believe with a firm faith that the blessed Creator is the first and the last.

        V. I believe with a firm faith that the blessed Creator is the only one to whom we should pray, and there is besides Him no being to whom we ought to address our prayers.

        VI. I believe with a firm faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

        VII. I believe with a firm faith that the prophecy of our teacher Moses (upon whom be peace) is true, and that he was the chief of all the wise men that lives before him or will come after him.

        VIII. I believe with a firm faith that the whole law, which we have now in our possession, is the same which was given to our teacher Moses (upon whom be peace).

        IX. I believe with a firm faith that this law will not be changed, and that there will not be another law from the Creator, blessed be his name.

        X. I believe with a firm faith that the blessed Creator knows all the deeds of the sons of man, and all their thoughts; as it is written: “He fashions all their hearts, and understands all their works.”

        XI. I believe with a firm faith that the blessed Creator will reward those who keep his commandments, and punish those who transgress them.

        XII. I believe with a firm faith in the coming of the Messiah; and though he tarry, still will I daily wait for his coming.

        XIII. I believe with a firm faith that the dead will be called to life at the time it may be the will of the blessed Creator, whose memorial be glorified for everlasting, and to all eternity.

        9. Why do you believe in these doctrines?

        Because they are all founded upon the revealed word of God, as we have shown by the various texts from the Bible which we have quoted before. In short, our creed is based upon the truth of God, and in confidence upon his wisdom and goodness, and in reliance upon his mercy and justice, which, like His existence, are everlasting.

        link to jewish-history.com

    • Egbert
      September 26, 2013, 3:57 am

      I have been reading Moshe Menuhin’s excellent book “The Decadence of Judaism in Our Time” written in 1969. He writes of his early education “I was reared in the Hebrew Gymnasia Herzliya. I was one of the first graduates of this unique school of “Jewish” nationalism. And it took me a long time to rid myself of all the hate-filled, asphyxiating xenophobia towards Gentiles including, of course, the Arabs of Palestine, that was implanted in our young hearts.”

      So, yes, there was and still appears to be indoctrination of the young. A perfect manifestation of the Jesuit maxim “Give me a child for for his first seven years and I’ll give you the man”.

      He closes with “To the Israelis I would say, return to the God of your Fathers, to Prophetic Judaism. Repudiate the religion of Napalm Judaism. Go back to the country given to you in 1947 by the United Nations at the expense of the indigent Arabs of Palestine and lead a constructive instead of a destructive life. That 1947 country is more than enough to take care of the really persecuted Jews of the world.”

      • Ellen
        September 26, 2013, 8:24 am

        Actualy, the maxim “Give me the boy……” is rhe Spartan military maxim. Ottoman Turks practiced Dersirme, where they took very young boys from Christian families of the Balkans for tax relief and would educate them to to military. They had a similar maxim “Show me the boy…..”

        But back to your point: The Isreal of 1947 will never be seen again. Israelis never did and never will accept it. Some say with that, seeds of it’s own destruction were planted. Observing the Zionist tactics, DeGaul said then, “Israel will drown in a sea of Arabs.”

  10. Fredman
    September 25, 2013, 3:00 pm

    The great doublestandard:

    A Jew dying for a Jewish state: ok.

    A Muslim dying for his/her cause: nutjob.

  11. talknic
    September 25, 2013, 3:23 pm

    Israelis aren’t dying to preserve the Jewish state, they’re dying to usurp the Palestinians from what remained of Palestine after the Jewish State was proclaimed and recognized “as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947″ link to trumanlibrary.org

  12. seafoid
    September 25, 2013, 3:37 pm

    What if your friend was Palestinian and was killed to preserve the Jewish state ?

    • OlegR
      September 25, 2013, 5:25 pm

      There some Palestinian Arabs in the IDF as well.
      Mostly Christians.

      • Walker
        September 26, 2013, 8:21 am

        There some Palestinian Arabs in the IDF as well. Mostly Christians.

        Yeah. 100 enlisted over the past year. That compares to thousands of foreign Jews volunteering annually.

        This is yet another Israeli propaganda hobby-horse.

  13. yonah fredman
    September 25, 2013, 3:45 pm

    Man, what a high price for a tremp. (tremp- hitchhike).

    Better to be harangued by a Moonie at the airport or a homeless man in a crowded subway car than to be harangued by Phil Weiss in the back seat of a friggin car in the West Bank. What if your friend is going to die? Hell, man. The kid just wanted to get from point A to point B and you start going existential on him. Gimme a break.

    And now the rest of you join in and pile on the kid. Gimme a break.

    • Donald
      September 25, 2013, 4:23 pm

      I didn’t watch the film, but it does seem like an odd thing to ask out of the blue unless Phil managed to steer the conversation in some natural-seeming sort of way to that topic.

    • Woody Tanaka
      September 25, 2013, 4:34 pm

      “Better to be harangued by a Moonie at the airport or a homeless man in a crowded subway car than to be harangued by Phil Weiss in the back seat of a friggin car in the West Bank.”

      Jesus, yonah, what harangue? Phil asked him a question and the kid answered. He didn’t appear to be put out in the least by the exchange.

    • Danaa
      September 25, 2013, 5:23 pm

      Yonah, that goes to show why it was hard for you to acclimate to Israel. Most israelis, young and old, love nothing better than to answer existential sounding questions, especially if it comes out of the blue. Makes them feel important that someone older would actually care about what they think. The young man – and his girlfriend – are probably still talking about the interview, and he is no doubt going over his own answers in his mind, wondering whether he should have said more, been more articulate, elaborated better to clarify things.

      Also, I doubt you ever caught a tremp in israel. But i spent years doing just that, and let me tell you, anyone who hitches a ride knows there’s a secret price for the privilege. one just keeps hoping the price is not too high. Being asked a few questions is really an easy way to get off. Probably kept the young fellow awake, for which he was most grateful.

      Israel was definitely not for you if you could say what you just did. Should I be sorry?

      • Elliot
        September 25, 2013, 5:46 pm

        Yonah, I’m surprised you never had a similar experience on a taxi ride or tremp other close encounter with an Israeli. Israelis get existential at the drop of a hat. They eat this stuff for breakfast.
        David’s comment about being ever ready with the regurgitated inculcated dogma is spot on.

      • yonah fredman
        September 25, 2013, 9:36 pm

        Danaa, thanks for giving me a taste of Israeli rudeness, something you can always be depended upon vis a vis me, so that i don’t wax nostalgic for Israel.

        I did catch tremps when I was in Israel 72-74.

        Yes, it is preferable to catch a tremp with Phil Weiss and his “niece” rather than with the types who dispatched Nachshon Waxman. Small price to pay.

        By the way, Phil, now that you’ve faked one niece, how about telling us how many real nieces and nephews you actually do have.

      • tree
        September 26, 2013, 3:45 pm

        Obviously, yonah, you managed to assimilate some of that “Israeli rudeness” yourself. Your comment to Phil, made BEFORE Danaa’s reply, was much more rude than her reply. And your second swipe at Phil over his nieces and nephews was even more rude than your first comment.

        Is it a mark of assimilated Israeli culture to carp on other people’s rudeness while being oblivious to your own? If so, you’ve managed one aspect of assimilation. And, yes, this question can be perceived as rude. One could be polite in pointing out another’s rudeness, but then the message is often missed. I’m prepared for rudeness in return in hopes of getting my point across to you.

    • miriam6
      September 25, 2013, 9:47 pm

      Yonah fredman@:

      Better to be harangued by a Moonie at the airport or a homeless man in a crowded subway car than to be harangued by Phil Weiss in the back seat of a friggin car in the West Bank. What if your friend is going to die? Hell, man. The kid just wanted to get from point A to point B and you start going existential on him. Gimme a break.

      A comment right on the money

      LOL!

    • amigo
      September 26, 2013, 7:29 am

      “Hell, man. The kid just wanted to get from point A to point B and you start going existential on him. Gimme a break.

      And now the rest of you join in and pile on the kid. Gimme a break.”yf

      Maybe the kid announced he was there to join the army???. Chances are he will end up killing innocent Palestinians and will aid and abet in the destruction of another people,s culture and rights and the theft of their lands.

      Why do reasonable questions always ranker you apologists so much.

      Don,t bother with the answer.We all know why.

    • Philip Weiss
      September 26, 2013, 10:54 am

      Touche, Yonah

    • libra
      September 26, 2013, 3:01 pm

      yonah fredman Better to be harangued by a Moonie at the airport or a homeless man in a crowded subway car than to be harangued by Phil Weiss in the back seat of a friggin car in the West Bank.

      Better to use the Arab-only roads to avoid this dreadful fate, yonah?

  14. David Samel
    September 25, 2013, 4:15 pm

    My impression is that this young man is very representative of the average Israeli of his generation. He has internalized the doctrine quite well, and is able to regurgitate it with conviction. Of course, Jews live as equal citizens in dozens of countries around the world, even though they are a tiny minority in every single one. It is only in Israel, where they constitute a majority, or about half the population if you include the WB and Gaza, that Jews supposedly could not survive as equals, and require exclusive control over the machinery and military might of the state. How is it that so many people imagine that there can be no Jewish life in this one particular area of the world without a Jewish State, when there are so many counter-examples? You see similar sentiments here in the USA as well, where reasonably intelligent people proclaim that an end to the Jewish State would require mass emigration of all the Jews to avoid being slaughtered in their beds. I’ve said it before but I have to say it again. While Israel’s military is evaluated as one of the most powerful in the world, its hasbara department has been much more successful in spreading thoroughly illogical reasoning and hysteria as gospel truth.

    On the other hand, perhaps I’m being too praiseworthy of hasbara success. When we see Obama, in his recent speeches, extol the virtue of American foreign policy over the past 70 years in promoting democracy and peace around the world, how many Americans double over in laughter or nausea as they should? National myths, inculcated from childhood, are very powerful.

    • seafoid
      September 25, 2013, 5:04 pm

      It’s not about having a state per se. It’s about protecting Jewish economic privileges. Currently those are justified by massive doses of IDF violence.
      That is what Israeli Jews are afraid of- losing their 20 K USD GDP and going down to 10K. And they’ll come up with any crap to justify the status quo.

      But it’s all about the money, honey.

      “an inherent feature of the international system of law is that it claims a single version of the good life as universally preferable and relies on different mechanisms of force to pursue the issue. There are huge differences in culture, politics and economic power. Those differences are not being leveled as the international system evolves but rather are features of the system itself.”
      -from “Immanuel Wallerstein and the problem of the World”

      Zionism is just a more concentrated version of this

    • OlegR
      September 25, 2013, 5:26 pm

      You only need to look to the north to see what happens to minorities in our region.

      • Cliff
        September 25, 2013, 5:45 pm

        Look in your own backyard and what you’ve done to the indigenous population you STOLE from, you hypocrite.

      • seafoid
        September 25, 2013, 5:49 pm

        Yeah

        the Shia have the speaker of parliament
        the President is Maronite
        The Deputy Prime Minister is Orthodox
        The Prime Minister is Sunni

      • OlegR
        September 25, 2013, 5:54 pm

        Yes and they all vigorously murdered each other not so long ago.
        And that’s great i would love to live in a country where i can’t be elected to office because i am a Jew.

      • Elliot
        September 25, 2013, 5:59 pm

        Right.
        While to Lebanon’s south all those office holders plus every one of the 30 government ministers are members of the majority ethnic group.

      • OlegR
        September 26, 2013, 9:06 am

        No but they are not legally barred to be elected into any office.
        And we don’t have agreements as to who mans which position so the country wouldn’t plunge into another civil for so that’s also a plus.
        But you go ahead and live in Lebanon if you want.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2013, 11:00 am

        “No but they are not legally barred to be elected into any office.”

        Indirectly there is. Absolutely.

      • Elliot
        September 26, 2013, 11:03 am

        @Oleg
        “No but they are not legally barred to be elected into any office.”
        If we tell you about Israel’s racist laws, you change the subject.
        If we tell you about Israel’s racist institutions, you change the subject.
        If we tell you about Israel’s racist practices all they way up to the highest political offices, you point back to the law.
        Two things are constant: Israel’s racist nature and your efforts to stop the conversation.

        I don’t need Lebanon or Israel. I can pick from many democratic countries where I can live freely as a Jew in Jewish communities. Although Taxi’s descriptions of Lebanon are appealing and I’d like to visit one day.

      • OlegR
        September 26, 2013, 1:17 pm

        Indirectly it took the US about 200 years to elect a black dude as a president
        and it’s not surrounded by hostile African nations.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2013, 2:36 pm

        “Indirectly it took the US about 200 years to elect a black dude as a president”

        US also hasn’t held a population of black folks — roughly equal to its own population — as serfs, without human rights or the right to vote, for generations, either.

        “and it’s not surrounded by hostile African nations.”

        Yes, because it hasn’t acted in the manner israel has. If israel has bad relations with its neighbors in 2013, it’s because of how it has acted in previous years and what it refuses to do: give justice to the Palestinians. You could have peace will all of your surrounding Arab neighbors, but you refuse to accept the Arab Peace Plan. Why? Because you are not a peaceable state.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2013, 9:32 pm

        And we don’t have agreements as to who mans which position so the country wouldn’t plunge into another civil for so that’s also a plus.

        Of course you do. Anyone who does not recognize Israel as a Jewish state is barred from office of PM. If such a person were elected, it would certainly lead to civil war.

        But you go ahead and live in Lebanon if you want.

        Why not? Beirut in considered a much more appealing destination than Israel.

      • talknic
        September 27, 2013, 3:12 am

        OlegR “Great that onestaters should stop telling us how wonderful it would be to fit into the neighborhood and how it will all turnout alright”

        For around 2,000 years Jews could have returned to the region, buy land and settle. They didn’t. Why not? During Herzl’s lifetime, he could have immigrated to Palestine, gained citizenship, bought land and settled. He didn’t, nor his family. Why not? AT most he spent a few days there. Now ironically he’s buried “outside the State of Israel” link to pages.citebite.com in “territories occupied” link to pages.citebite.com

        The Zionist Organization’s clear intentions to colonize link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org Palestine and the ‘Western’ invasion of the Ottoman Empire began the rot that ruined the chances of Jewish folk living anywhere in Palestine, the establishment of the State of Israel ruined what little chance there was left by 1948.

        Contrary to the Israeli propaganda, it is Jewish folk in the diaspora who’ve missed opportunity after opportunity link to wp.me having a state demanded for them by a small minority, the ZIONIST MOVEMENT who were not even from the region but never the less declared a State on behalf of themselves link to pages.citebite.com and the indigenous Jews of the region. One of their first acts was to rob Israelis of their constitution and chance of a legally elected government, under a constitution.

        The Palestinians on the other hand have never had an opportunity to declare independent statehood. One cannot be or declare to be independent while under occupation. Palestine has been under occupation in part or wholly by some entity or another for the last 2,000 plus years.

        “Great that onestaters should stop telling us how wonderful it would be to fit into the neighborhood and how it will all turnout alright”

        There was already one state under the LoN Mandate for Palestine, where Jews could live anywhere in Palestine, gain Palestinian citizenship, buy land and settle link to pages.citebite.com Zionist colonial aspirations for a Jewish state ruined the opportunity.

        Now Israel drags itself down to the level of a pariah state, duping its citizens into thinking the have a right to settle outside the state, encouraging them to illegally settle outside of the State and selling them land that is not within the territory of the state.

      • talknic
        September 25, 2013, 9:29 pm

        @ OlegR “You only need to look to the north to see what happens to minorities in our region”

        Uh huh …. The Jewish minority illegally acquired other folks territory link to wp.me

      • yonah fredman
        September 25, 2013, 9:44 pm

        Regarding the reactions to Oleg- If you folks really think that Lebanon or Syria or Iraq or Egypt or Jordan and their modes of government and their current relations to minorities or between sects are a good sign of what the future has in store for Israel once your BDS or your historical inevitability has its sway, then you are missing a few screws. I accept your rejection of the Israeli mode of governance, but in fact the area is in turmoil, greater turmoil than ever before in the last 50 years and you people are pretending that oh, oleg said something, let’s take him down a notch. Not an iota of hesitation. You are a bunch of know it alls, who are full of it, and are not willing to deal with some of the solid facts of the case, which at this point in time is that the Arab world is a god awful mess, for which none of you have any advice, other than laissez faire regarding everyone and coaxing Israel to become one with the neighborhood.

        Go build your castles in the air.

      • talknic
        September 26, 2013, 3:44 am

        yonah fredman ” If you folks really think that Lebanon or Syria or Iraq or Egypt or Jordan and their modes of government and their current relations to minorities or between sects are a good sign of what the future has in store for Israel once your BDS or your historical inevitability has its sway, then you are missing a few screws”

        Uh? BDS is about Israel’s ILLEGAL activities OUTSIDE of the State of Israel. It’s Israeli propagandists whose screws are ALL loose who keep telling everyone BDS is an attempt to have Israel disappear. It’s nonsense. The same nonsense idiots for Israel spout anytime anyone argues that Israel should adhere to the law.

        “you people are pretending that oh, oleg said something, let’s take him down a notch”

        Er no. Oleg spouts nonsense. Nonsense deserves a swift put down. When idiots for Israel’s crimes spout off they afford an opportunity to show honest folk exactly why the Olegs of the world are wrong. IOW they do themselves and Israel a dis-service

      • German Lefty
        September 26, 2013, 4:16 am

        BDS is about Israel’s ILLEGAL activities OUTSIDE of the State of Israel.

        BDS is also about Israel’s ILLEGAL policies INSIDE the State of Israel. The BDS goals are:
        1) Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall
        2) Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality
        3) Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194

      • Cliff
        September 26, 2013, 4:38 am

        You are an ethno-religious fanatic Wondering Jew, who conflates the Palestinian people w/ all Arabs across the ME.

      • Walid
        September 26, 2013, 8:51 am

        “… other than laissez faire regarding everyone and coaxing Israel to become one with the neighborhood. ”

        Yonah, the neighbourhood went to pots when Israel moved in. True that the Arab world is in a big mess and some it is certainly due to the Arabs themselves but another part is due to what Israel has done to the Palestinians and to its continued shit disturbing everywhere, such as in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, etc.

      • eljay
        September 26, 2013, 9:01 am

        >> Go build your castles in the air.

        Meanwhile, Zio-supremacists like OlegR continue building their castles on stolen, occupied and colonized Palestinian land.

      • amigo
        September 26, 2013, 9:20 am

        “Go build your castles in the air.”YF

        You are building Sand Castles and the tide is a commin in.

      • OlegR
        September 26, 2013, 9:32 am

        /It’s Israeli propagandists whose screws are ALL loose who keep telling everyone BDS is an attempt to have Israel disappear./

        I didn’t know Norman Finkelstein was hired as an Israeli propagandist.

      • Theo
        September 26, 2013, 11:21 am

        yonah

        As any decent american cannot be proud of what we did in Vietnam or Iraq, just to name two major “democratisation” of countries, you also cannot compare your standards to neighbouring dictatorships. I thought jews had more class.
        However, your country functions and its leader govern with deception and lies, and without any respect for moral and laws that should govern a so called western democracy.
        People in the USA and England, your most faithful supporters, are waking up to the facts what zionism did to our societies and you can expect major changes in the future. In my simple opinion Israel will not survive another 10 years in its present form, so you must change your attitude.

      • Elliot
        September 26, 2013, 12:20 pm

        Yonah,
        Thank you for agreeing that Israel’s governance is a mess. But what has that got to do with the “neighborhood”? So what if there is/isn’t a successful Arab Spring or whatever else is going on over there. It would be like defending U.S. racism/empire or explaining U.S. democracy in terms of Latin America. Israel – in similar ways to the U.S. – dominates its own “neighborhood”, intervenes in their affairs while holding itself in higher self-regard than their neighbors.
        But nobody seriously justifies the U.S.’s faults because of the violence in Mexico or revolutions in and military regimes in Central America.
        And the same advice we give Israel goes for Arab countries too. Morsi failed because he did not include non-Islamists in his vision for Egypt; Israel is failing because they have never truly partnered with their Palestinian citizens. Arab dictatorships relied on U.S. money and war materiel to hold their regimes together. Israel is utterly dependent on the U.S. In the long run, the U.S. empire is not as strong as the people. The Arab Spring showed that and Israel cannot last either.

      • OlegR
        September 26, 2013, 1:20 pm

        /you also cannot compare your standards to neighboring dictatorships. /
        Great that onestaters should stop telling us how wonderful it would be to fit into the neighborhood and how it will all turnout alright.

      • libra
        September 26, 2013, 3:11 pm

        yonah fredman: Go build your castles in the air.

        It rather seems to me, yonah, that it’s you who built a sandcastle on a Middle Eastern beach and complains bitterly now the tide is coming back in to wash it away.

        But at least you’re smart enough to know the tide has indeed turned.

      • yonah fredman
        September 26, 2013, 5:53 pm

        Walid- It is impossible to determine what the neighborhood would have looked like had Israel not been established and there is little question that Israel’s establishment (its coercive nature and the exile of the Palestinians which was an essential ingredient of its establishment) plus Israel’s behavior since establishment have hurt the neighborhood.

        It would have been interesting had the Faisal- Weizmann Agreement been the primary relationship between Zionism and the Arab world, rather than the British mandate.

        link to en.wikipedia.org

      • Philip Weiss
        September 26, 2013, 6:20 pm

        Excellent analysis Elliot, I find this very helpful. Phil

      • Cliff
        September 26, 2013, 7:30 pm

        Norman Finkelstein isn’t against BDS in and of itself or the notion of a Jewish Lobby.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2013, 9:30 pm

        I didn’t know Norman Finkelstein was hired as an Israeli propagandist.

        Finkelstein supports BDS.

        Hasbara fail!

      • yonah fredman
        September 27, 2013, 12:36 am

        Elliot- to compare a country the size of America and the population of America vis a vis Latin America to a country the size of Israel and the population of Israel vis a vis its neighbors is illogical.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 27, 2013, 1:56 am

        intervenes in their affairs while holding itself in higher self-regard than their neighbors.

        elliot pointed out similarities, israel does not “intervene with it’s neighbors nor hold itself to a higher self regard.”
        is that what you find illogical. or your just nixing wrt size of real estate.

      • talknic
        September 27, 2013, 2:32 am

        @German Lefty Points 2 & 3 taken. Neither of which support yonah fredman’s contention.

      • yonah fredman
        September 27, 2013, 5:41 pm

        The population of 300 million and the largest economy in the world and the strongest military with two oceans and no war on its turf since 1812, the US interaction with its neighbors is different than a country that is small and in a sea of Arabs. You might say, “Why establish a country in a sea of Arabs, if you can’t get along?” But you can’t deny that the dynamics are not comparable.

        It is possible to argue that the Arab spring and the Arab situation since 1967 has been very dependent upon Israeli actions. But to say that the Arab nonJewish Palestinians are immune to the neighborhood’s politics, is nonsense. The United States is not immune to cultural influences and immigration from its neighbors, but the power politics dynamics are very different than Israel and its neighbors.

      • Elliot
        September 27, 2013, 8:01 pm

        @ Yonah
        Elliot- to compare a country the size of America and the population of America vis a vis Latin America to a country the size of Israel and the population of Israel vis a vis its neighbors is illogical.

        Yonah,
        Now you are playing games. You introduce a term “neighborhood” without defining it (Is Greece or the island of Crete in Israel’s neighborhood?) but then complain when others use the same term with reasonable points of comparison.
        The definition of “neighborhood” is not a scientific reality but a state of the Israeli mind. Israel loves being near Europe but hates being in the middle of the Middle East.
        In terms of scale of distance, population and reach of power, the U.S. vis a vis Latin America is comparable to Israel vs. its “neighborhood” (whatever that means).
        You read the same things I read on Mondoweiss so you know of the many parallels between Israeli exceptionalism and American exceptionalism that have ben explored here. So, you may disagree with me but you don’t really believe that this comparison is illogical otherwise you would have raised that objection earlier.
        What you really object to is anyone taking on the “tough neighborhood” defense of Israel. This argument is an attempt to manipulate American Jews and others who fled the cities for the safety of suburbia. The “tough neighborhood” defense is really something along these lines:
        “Think of your poor fellow Jews who are still stuck in the tough neighborhood while you fled to suburban safety. We’re not as lucky as you. How dare you judge us in your fine suburban home and fancy schools. You have a nice neighborhood. We weren’t able to get out. Leave us alone to figure this out on our own.
        P.S. Keep those checks and warplanes coming.”

      • yonah fredman
        September 28, 2013, 12:21 am

        Elliot- Spare me your suburban analogies, on what basis do I deserve that?

        Oleg made a comment regarding the countries to Israel’s north and I was reacting to a reaction to his comment, so let me “start anew” by stating my position rather than as a reaction.

        I think “the neighborhood” is often used as an excuse. But I think that those who propose the beautiful future if only Israelis were to change from Zionists to democrats are talking about a far off future and not the current situation. I think as individuals Syrians and Egyptians are willing to get along, but somehow it isn’t turning out that way and the gap between the ideal embodied in the individual and the reality embodied on the front pages, is quite a gap. I think the beautiful future prescribed by the commentators here is also quite a gaping distance away from the reality that would follow if their prescriptions were followed.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 28, 2013, 12:59 am

        you can’t deny that the dynamics are not comparable.

        i’ll keep that in mind when people claim we share the same values.

        btw, i notice you didn’t answer my question. elliot wrote

        Israel – in similar ways to the U.S. – dominates its own “neighborhood”, intervenes in their affairs while holding itself in higher self-regard than their neighbors.

        it’s occuring to me you’re diverting because you don’t want to discuss this.

      • yonah fredman
        September 28, 2013, 1:20 am

        Annie Robbins- Yes, Israel intervenes in the affairs of her neighbors and holds herself in higher self regard than her neighbors. What is there to discuss?

        You are constantly scoring points and counting the tallies. War of ideas? Hardly. Game playing.

      • Shingo
        September 28, 2013, 2:34 am

        the US interaction with its neighbors is different than a country that is small and in a sea of Arabs.

        No matter how many times it is brought to your attention, you ethnocentric supremacists continue to spout the most racist bile.

        I for one, could never imagine referring to a”sea of Jews”, for it suggests a mindless, sub-human collective swarm of parasites. A swarm of locusts, with a sole raison d’ être to consume.

        But then again, I have to remind myself that such is the philosophy of Zionism – a racist supremacist ideology.

        The United States is not immune to cultural influences and immigration from its neighbors, but the power politics dynamics are very different than Israel and its neighbors.

        But that’s not what you are talking about. Israeli society is already heavily influenced by Arab culture. Your obsession is based on pure blood mania and social Darwinism.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 28, 2013, 9:24 am

        who is playing games yonah? you launch a counter argument “you can’t deny that the dynamics are not comparable” when you know very well, as we all do, of these similarities elliot mentions and you yourself admit: “Yes, Israel intervenes in the affairs of her neighbors and holds herself in higher self regard than her neighbors”

        but you do not want to discuss this idea, of commonality. why? you find a way to shut it down and accuse others of games. whereas how many times have we all heard the US and israel share the same values? we don’t hear you yammering on about ‘how dare you compare’ over that, now do we?

        so if you do not care to discuss elliot’s idea, just don’t. or if you care to make some excuse or rational as to why israel and the US do this, or claim they don’t do it, have at it. but no, you launch a counter argument challenging the premise of ‘comparative value’ as opposed to the point, which is similarity, which you admit yourself is true.

        and then you ask, what is there to discuss? maybe since you find no value in the discussion you’re just being disrupting so others will not discuss it. but assuming you are not:

        I think as individuals Syrians and Egyptians are willing to get along, but somehow it isn’t turning out that way and the gap between the ideal embodied in the individual and the reality embodied on the front pages, is quite a gap.

        so, wrt “somehow it isn’t turning out that way”, in what way might the meddling (“intervenes in the affairs of her neighbors”) of US/IS impact that gap? in what way has foreign intervention impacted “individuals” who are “willing to get along” in those neighboring countries? take lebanon for example, it’s not an honest approach to say “somehow” it isn’t turning out ideally, when the US is pumping billions into the opposition and US/IS are training counter forces and supporting regime change. it’s not just ‘somehow’. sure baghdad had problems but how could one possibly compare pre invasion to the civil war we instigated there which made it a thousand fold worse and will take decades to recover? “somehow”?

      • Elliot
        September 28, 2013, 11:34 pm

        @Yonah –
        Spare me your suburban analogies, on what basis do I deserve that?
        What’s up with this rudeness?
        I think “the neighborhood” is often used as an excuse.
        Thank you.

      • Elliot
        September 28, 2013, 11:48 pm

        @Yonah:
        You might say, “Why establish a country in a sea of Arabs, if you can’t get along?”
        You might say that and you did say that.
        Jews live in “a sea of Gentiles” all over the world. We live in “a sea of Christians” in the U.S. And we all get along. We intermarry or not. Pray together or not. Play together or not. And we don’t talk in those terms.
        Zionism was supposed to normalize the Jewish situation in the world. The State of Israel was supposed to make Jews safe. Yet Zionists and Israelis are the biggest Jewish purveyors of fear.
        Zionism has failed on its own terms. And its recklessness is a liability for the rest of us.
        And Shingo appropriately calls you out for your implied racism.

      • ritzl
        September 29, 2013, 12:19 am

        Great comment, Annie.

      • just
        September 29, 2013, 12:51 am

        ““Why establish a country in a sea of Arabs, if you can’t get along?””

        Lemmeseehere. Aren’t there Jewish Arabs? Aren’t there Iranian (Persian) Jews? Are you playing ethnic games or just being deliberately obtuse?

        You might just want to examine your soul.

      • just
        September 29, 2013, 1:37 am

        I suggest that you might want to read this:

        “Intellectual discourse in the West highlights a Judeo-Christian tradition, yet rarely acknowledges the Judeo-Muslim culture of the Middle East, of North Africa, or of pre-Expulsion Spain (1492) and of the European parts of the Ottoman Empire. The Jewish experience in the Muslim world has often been portrayed as an unending nightmare of oppression and humiliation.

        Although I in no way want to idealize that experience–there were occasional tensions, discriminations, even violence–on the whole, we lived quite comfortably within Muslim societies.

        Our history simply cannot be discussed in European Jewish terminology. As Iraqi Jews, while retaining a communal identity, we were generally well integrated and indigenous to the country, forming an inseparable part of its social and cultural life. Thoroughly Arabized, we used Arabic even in hymns and religious ceremonies. The liberal and secular trends of the 20th century engendered an even stronger association of Iraqi Jews and Arab culture, which brought Jews into an extremely active arena in public and cultural life. Prominent Jewish writers, poets and scholars played a vital role in Arab culture, distinguishing themselves in Arabic speaking theater, in music, as singers, composers, and players of traditional instruments.

        In Egypt, Morocco, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Tunisia, Jews became members of legislatures, of municipal councils, of the judiciary, and even occupied high economic positions. (The finance minister of Iraq in the ’40s was Ishak Sasson, and in Egypt, Jamas Sanua–higher positions, ironically, than those our community had generally achieved within the Jewish state until the 1990s!)”

        link to bintjbeil.com

      • RoHa
        September 29, 2013, 1:46 am

        I hope she’s already got tenure. If not …

  15. yrn
    September 25, 2013, 4:40 pm

    Mr. Wiess asked this stupid question before.

    What a stupid question from a stupid person to a youngster.

    • Dutch
      September 25, 2013, 5:20 pm

      The name is Weiss. Phil Weiss.

      • German Lefty
        September 25, 2013, 5:25 pm

        By the way, “weiß” or “weiss” is the German word for “white”.

    • German Lefty
      September 25, 2013, 5:23 pm

      What a stupid question from a stupid person to a youngster.

      If you think that Phil is stupid and has nothing useful to say, then why do you keep reading his articles?

    • Woody Tanaka
      September 25, 2013, 5:32 pm

      “What a stupid question from a stupid person to a youngster.”

      Who the hell tought you manners? Phil is your host here. You post by his leave alone. You should be ashamed of yourself.

    • Shingo
      September 25, 2013, 5:39 pm

      What a stupid youngster!

  16. German Lefty
    September 25, 2013, 5:59 pm

    The Real News: The Survival of the Palestinian People is Itself a Form of Resistance
    In Reality Asserts Itself with Rania Masri, Paul Jay asks why she considers Israel the “enemy” state; the one state solution; and the possibility of a new political leadership amongst the Palestinians
    link to therealnews.com

  17. Kathleen
    September 25, 2013, 6:23 pm

    What if an American soldier had to die to preserve an Israeli state that has expanded beyond its legal borders?

    • LanceThruster
      September 25, 2013, 6:44 pm

      Jim Carroll Band

      “Barricades”

      We should have left at once
      We should have never stayed
      Now they have drawn the line
      Now there is a barricade
      Now there’s a barricade
      A barricade

      Who makes promises?
      Who makes promises through a thick lead door?
      Through an intercom on the 23rd floor?
      Who makes promises and then promises more?
      Who makes promises for El Salvador?

      Bobby’s getting called. Billy’s getting called
      Juan’s getting called, John’s getting called . . .
      They get a letter in the mail, they get a telephone call

      It says, “Come on, Come on . . .”
      It says, “Come on . . .”

      All the American boys
      Asleep beneath American shade
      Awake on foreign soil
      They awake inside the barricades
      Inside the barricades

      The sun curves over the jungle
      And trees grow from the dead nun’s lungs
      But when the ship is in the harbor
      Then the cyanide pill’s on their tongue
      Inside the Barricade, inside the barricade

      Girls, no more going out dancing
      And boys, there’s no more getting laid
      You’re gonna parachute to the holy land
      And you will drop into the barricades
      Inside the barricades, inside the barricades

      Who makes promises for the Neutron bomb?
      It will sign your lungs to death
      And leave the corporate walls unharmed . . .
      Who makes promises with such insidious charm?
      But it would have made things cleaner
      In old Vietnam . . .

      That’s when Kevin got called up
      Ritchie got called . . .
      And Kevin never came back
      Ritchie never came home

      Their folks got a letter in the mail
      THEY GOT A LETTER IN THE MAIL . . .

      I ain’t gonna die for Standard Oil
      I.B.M. . . . I wouldn’t die for them!
      G.E.? Not me!

      “Come on,” they say, “Come on”
      They say “Come on,”
      And you say, “ahh” . . .
      You just say “LATER!”

      Copyright Earl McGrath Music/Jim Carroll Music, ASCAP/Missing Finger Music, BMI
      (1982)

  18. tokyobk
    September 25, 2013, 7:08 pm

    The questions seem the same but they are separate:
    Are you willing to die for your country ?
    Is your country worth dying for (in a universally justifiable way)?
    There are plenty of people who will die for their crappy country or religion, warts and all.
    Phil does not seem to believe that anyone cannot see how obvious it is that nationalism is two centuries ago and useless. And “Bad for the Jews” (worse for the Palestinians).

    I am reading a book whose title translate as “When will it be ok to love Japan again?”
    which begins with the lament that less than 10% of Japanese surveyed say they are willing to die defending Japan.” It is strange since the vast majority of Japanese would have (did) say yes in the late 1930s whereas Japan today is eminently more worth defending.

    I recall a survey from about 2006 where the numbers were fairly low for most European countries as well.

  19. Elliot
    September 25, 2013, 7:30 pm

    Even WWII was not exempt from young people trying not to get killed.
    Paul Fussell (a WWII vet himself) wrote extensively about how social class determined what kind of service you did in WWII and your chances of survival.
    The grunts who slogged through Europe in 1944-45 and defeated Germany had a high percentage of Blacks and lower class Whites. They also had the highest rates of casualties.
    I’m reading Malcom X’s autobiography. He writes that his close Black friend in the Roxbury district of Boston tried to get out of serving in WWII. “Whitey owns everything. He wants us to go bleed for him? Let him fight.” p. 83

    • LanceThruster
      September 25, 2013, 7:38 pm

      Yossarian: Those bastards are trying to kill me.

      1st Lt. Milo Minderbinder: No one is trying to kill you sweetheart. Now eat your dessert like a good boy.

      Yossarian: Oh yeah? Then why are they shooting at me Milo?

      Dobbs: They’re shooting at everyone Yossarian.

      Yossarian: And what difference does that make?

      Dobbs: Look Yossarian, suppose, I mean just suppose everyone thought the same way you do.

      Yossarian: Then I’d be a damn fool to think any different.

    • Citizen
      September 25, 2013, 8:28 pm

      Class privilege is nothing new in conscription law in the USA. During the Civil War, any southern man who owned 20 or more slaves was exempt from conscription. On the Union side, a man with a conscription notice could pay somebody to take his place. During the Vietnam War, anybody who could afford to go and stay in college was exempt; another way to avoid battle was to join the Reserves, which often needed a recommendation from an influential person. Today it’s an all volunteer military; most come from poor working class or rural or small town places with little prospects for jobs outside of flippin’ burgers, etc.

      • Elliot
        September 26, 2013, 9:12 am

        @ citizen – agreed. There is the popular idea that at least WWII was a noble war: We all agreed that the cause was just and we all did our share. Even the children of the powerful served, we were all in it together and so on.
        But even WWII (or the Civil War, as you note) didn’t level the playing field of privilege when it came to questions of life and death. There’s no escaping the issue.

    • HRK
      September 25, 2013, 8:38 pm

      Elliot:

      Here’s what the National WWII Museum website says on the matter:

      While most African Americans serving at the beginning of WWII were assigned to non-combat units and relegated to service duties, such as supply, maintenance, and transportation, their work behind front lines was equally vital to the war effort. Many drove for the famous “Red Ball Express,” which carried a half million tons of supplies to the advancing First and Third Armies through France. By 1945, however, troop losses virtually forced the military to begin placing more African American troops into positions as infantrymen, pilots, tankers, medics, and officers in increasing numbers.

    • Philip Weiss
      September 26, 2013, 11:00 am

      Also, Noam Chomsky’s father fled Russia so as not to serve I believe–
      link to cognet.mit.edu
      a theme in SY Agnon novels about Poland, too. Chomsky was formed in some measure by that attitude toward the czar. Refusal/pacificsm was a large part of my understanding of my family’s relationship to empire. And this young man utterly reverses that attitude.

  20. yonah fredman
    September 25, 2013, 10:15 pm

    When Barack Obama placed the reason for Israel’s existence as the Khurban (I prefer that to the “sacred” term Holocaust) many objected, because why should the Palestinians pay for the sins of Europe? There is a reason why the Jewish state exists in its historical spot rather than in Alaska (a la michael Chabon), but clearly the history of Europe between 1881 and 1945 (and to some extent America and its post WWI immigration policies) cannot be denied as a primary cause for the gathering of a sufficient number of Jews in Palestine to make the war of 47-48 practically inevitable.

    Currently Phil Weiss and his cohort is trying to undo the accomplishment of 47-48 and because so many people were hurt in 47-48, I too idealize a future in which the Palestinians (diaspora, west bank, gaza, Jerusalem and Israel) feel welcome in Israel. It is hard, given the current state of Syria and Egypt, for those who wish to see a better future to defend the practicality of such a future.

    Given the present tense, those young ‘uns who have recently served in the Israeli army have thought about existential questions and the Khurban and the pre state fortunes of the Jews, are going to be near the front of the tongue when one is asked such questions.

    Also: please note that the young man referred to his grandfather who came to the country. As has been pointed out, the percentage of Jews whose grandparents were in Europe during 1939 to 1945, or escaped to Palestine by the skin of their teeth in the 30’s is much higher than the percentage of American Jews whose grandparents or great grandparents suffered the Khurban in person or escaped it by a wisp of chance.

    I grant that the Khurban loses its raw heat as time goes on and if not for the need to convince Israelis to serve in the army, the Jewish people might be better off trying to live in the future and not in the past. Phil Weiss is trying to convince young American Jews that the Khurban is ancient history that happened to someone else or that is essentially irrelevant today. Onward to assimilation- onward to Christmas wreaths and readings of Kafka to make up for that ritualistic ethnocentric outmoded father in the sky worship which we can safely dump onto the trash heap of history.

    The mindset towards the future and towards the past are very different among American Jews than amongst Jews in Israel. Two different histories. (And so now is the time to convince American Jews that they are very different from those stupid yokels who won’t let go of the past and we are the new Jews who are ready willing and able to toss anything Jewish (except Kafka) onto the trash heap.)

    • Philip Weiss
      September 26, 2013, 11:08 am

      Yonah I don’t deny the presence of the Holocaust, but I emphasize the reality of genocide as a historical human condition that all peoples must deal with; and the European historical condition of Jews during the anti-Semitic centuries has been completely changed there and here too. I don’t want to remove or slight or diminish Jewish culture or Jewish religion, inasmuch as they are meaningful to many folks– though yes, I was formed as a boy by The Hunger Artist, really my first exposure to Jewish literature and belief as a meaningful statement about life, and it’s to The Hunger Artist that I will always return spiritually. Gregor Samsa too.
      I do want to end Jewish nationalism. I believe it’s a dead end and it has demonstrated as much itself by the way it’s worked out.

      • Walid
        September 26, 2013, 12:40 pm

        You’d be happy to know that “khurban” without the “h” to make it into kurban has the same meaning in Arabic.

      • Elliot
        September 26, 2013, 1:26 pm

        Walid – I wonder if Yiddish humor also translates into Arabic. The Hebrew “Khurbn” (pronounced by Yiddish speakers as KHOOR-bun) was used euphemistically (and understandably) for “breaking wind”

      • German Lefty
        September 26, 2013, 1:40 pm

        You’d be happy to know that “khurban” without the “h” to make it into kurban has the same meaning in Arabic.
        The Turkish word “kurban” means “victim” or “sacrifice”.

      • Elliot
        September 26, 2013, 1:50 pm

        My guess is that transliteration is playing games here. The Turkish word for “sacrifice” appears to be a cognate of the Hebrew “Qorban” using the letter “qof” (parallel through the Greek and Latin alphabets to the English “q”).
        “Khurban” (destruction) uses the Hebrew guttural “khet” often transliterated as “chet”

      • German Lefty
        September 26, 2013, 1:59 pm

        “Khurban” (destruction) uses the Hebrew guttural “khet” often transliterated as “chet”
        Yes, I know. I had to look up the word, because I had never heard it before. In German, it’s spelt “Churban”. That’s because the Hebrew letter “ח” sounds like the German “ch”.

      • Walid
        September 26, 2013, 2:40 pm

        In Arabic, the root is “kara’ba” a verb meaning “to offer to the Lord”. Muslims use “kurban” at the Feast of Adha(to offer a sacrifice) to commemorate God’s order to Abraham to switch the lamb for Ishmael (or is it vice versa?); the lamb is the kurban. Also in Arabic, in the Roman Catholic mass, the “Host” or “Hostie” in French given at communion is called the “kurban”.

      • Walid
        September 26, 2013, 2:45 pm

        Elliot, nothing in Arabic close to “khurbn”.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 26, 2013, 10:20 pm

        walid, (and eljay)In Arabic, the root is “kara’ba” a verb meaning “to offer to the Lord”. Muslims use “kurban” at the Feast of Adha(to offer a sacrifice)

        someone sent this to me today with a note saying “it means to sacrifice by fire to a god”. Etymology and use of the term holocaust

        link to en.wikipedia.org

        “The term holocaust comes from the Greek word holókauston, referring to an animal sacrifice offered to a god in which the whole (olos) animal is completely burnt (kaustos).[13″

        so the term does mean sacrifice. strange choice of word.

      • yonah fredman
        September 26, 2013, 11:25 pm

        Walid- My natural tendency is to spell the Hebrew/Yiddish word for destruction as Churban, the ch standing in for the letter chet, the eighth letter in the Hebrew alphabet. But because the “ch” is pronounced as a unit in English, usually as in church and chimney, very different from the sound in Churban, the Yiddish transliteration from Yivo, the official organ of the Yiddish language, prefers the spelling kh instead of ch. (Shmuel’s computer which includes the ability to put a dot over the h, is probably preferable.)

        The root word, or the word nearest the root word for destruction in Hebrew is kherev meaning sword (as in harb, as in war, as in dar al harb in Arabic) rather than karev, which in Hebrew means both getting close and sacrifice.

      • OlegR
        September 26, 2013, 1:23 pm

        / emphasize the reality of genocide as a historical human condition that all peoples must deal with;/

        And propose to do nothing about it just rely in the good will of the nations to not do it all over again.
        Or assimilating completely which is tantamount to cultural genocide.

      • eljay
        September 26, 2013, 2:08 pm

        >> When Barack Obama placed the reason for Israel’s existence as the Khurban (I prefer that to the “sacred” term Holocaust) …

        Google redirects my search for khurban + hebrew to “Korban”, which Wiki describes as “sacrifice” and “offering”. It sounds like yf is trying to make the passive holocaust (consumed by fire) or shoah (catastrophe) a noble deed, actively undertaken. That is seriously twisted.

        If Google and Wiki have led me astray, or if yf did not mean that the holocaust was something other than a passive (from the victims’ perspective) tragedy, I will gladly stand corrected.

      • Shmuel
        September 26, 2013, 2:27 pm

        It sounds like yf is trying to make the passive holocaust (consumed by fire) or shoah (catastrophe) a noble deed, actively undertaken.

        Absolutely not. Korban (sacrifice, offering) and ḥurban (destruction, devastation) are two completely different and unrelated Hebrew words.

        Khurbn or Khurbn Eiropeh (חורבן אייראפע), which drives from the Hebrew ḥurban, is the Yiddish word for the Holocaust. It is actually the English term that Yonah was trying to avoid that has such disturbing connotations.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2013, 2:30 pm

        “And propose to do nothing about it just rely in the good will of the nations to not do it all over again.
        Or assimilating completely which is tantamount to cultural genocide.”

        You are a pitiful man if you think this is the only option to your criminality.

      • eljay
        September 26, 2013, 2:47 pm

        >> Shmuel @ September 26, 2013 at 2:27 pm

        Thank you, Shmuel. I gladly stand corrected.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2013, 9:19 pm

        Or assimilating completely which is tantamount to cultural genocide.

        That’s what white slave traders used to say about ending slavery and assimilating with blacks.

        You Zionists are so 19th century.

      • RoHa
        September 26, 2013, 10:16 pm

        “Or assimilating completely which is tantamount to cultural genocide.”

        Using the term “cultural genocide” reveals either intent to deceive or a twisted mind.

        The word “genocide” evokes the idea of deliberate mass killing.*

        It means that thousands of people end up dead by the intentional actions of some person(s).

        It means thousands of people can no longer drink beer, or eat chocolate, or lust after girls far too young for them, or catch snowflakes on their eyelashes. It means they can no longer play trumpets, or swim in the sea, or read poetry, or play with their cats, or be sarcastic about the government, or grow vegetables and flowers, or watch James Bond films, or kiss their spouses, or feel the summer wind come blowing in across the sea, or grumble about Young People Today, or look at the stars, or tell stories, or learn Welsh, or any of the myriad other things that make life worth living.

        They are dead.

        Real genocide is clearly a bad thing. It stems from evil intentions, and has appalling results.

        But what does voluntary assimilation mean?

        No-one dies.

        The people decide to stop obsessing about their ancestors, to stop teaching their children that they are separate and different from the neighbours. Yes, they may give up some practices which they enjoy and which are important to them, but they still have all the options open to the members of the society they assimilate into.

        They are not dead.

        Is that so bad?

        There is no evil intent. The results are hardly disastrous.

        So, if you want us to believe “cultural genocide” is as bad as real genocide, then you are trying to deceive us. It obviously isn’t.

        If, on the other hand, you really think that assimilation, “cultural genocide”, is as bad as real genocide, then you have a really twisted sense of values. (But then, you are a Zionist, and so have no real comprehension of morality and human values.)

        To quote myself**:

        Human happiness is worth far more than culture, community, tradition, etc. If the “preservation” of these becomes an obstacle to happiness, then forget about “preserving” them. Pickles are usually sour.

        (*Legal definition notwithstanding.)
        (**And why not quote from the best?)

      • Annie Robbins
        September 26, 2013, 11:12 pm

        cultural genocide is what lots of zionists actively do to palestinians by wiping out their history,culture,lying about them, appropriating their food homes neighborhood trees livelihood etc etc etc..what to do about these mind numbing comments..as if someone falling in love and marrying outside their tribe is a perpetrator of genocide. i wonder if the weight of their victim mantels ever crunches their little brain cells.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 26, 2013, 2:24 pm

        @Philip Weiss: Of course I don’t agree with you, but I respect your view and your mission to end Jewish nationalism. As I understand, and please correct me if I wrong, you want to see the end of Israel as a state of a Jewish people. I don’t know what is your alternative for Jewish state, but meanwhile you are promoting your views, there are people living in this state. Most of them are innocent people that have nothing with the conflict and pray every day to see the end of it. Part of them are victims of the wars and terrorism and lost members of their families, as the Palestinians are. By the methods you use to promote your ideas you, unintentionally, hurt these innocent people. You created this web site which is a home to many Israel haters, part of them support terror and brutal activities against the Jewish residents of Israel. I do believe that some of them are anti-Semites (although they won’t declare it) that spread their views hiding behind the term “Anti Israel”. Since I participate in this site, I didn’t see any mercy or little understanding of the Jewish population sufferings, no matter the reasons of the sufferings. I didn’t read even not one comment calling for peace and reconciliation or calling to stop terrorism and brutal military activities from both sides of this long conflict. On the other hand, many here express their views freely and declare that the Jews must leave Israel for ever.

        I do not think I have the right to disturb you in your mission, but since you hurt my people, I call you to close this web site or, at least, to change its structure to more balanced and reliable one by writing journalistic articles based on examination of all facts without bias to one side only.

      • Philip Weiss
        September 26, 2013, 6:25 pm

        I’m opposed to an ideology of Jewish nationalism. That ideology is shared by many outside your borders, including many American liberals and establishment figures. I’m a citizen of the U.S. and my interest is in ending U.S. support for a militant discriminatory state, Israel. I know that there are countless supporters of the Jewish state in Israel and I want them to make the transition to a democracy, but I also have a laissez faire streak. It’s not my country. Once we knock out the props for Israeli discrimination in the U.S., I believe your country will change in a hurry. Look at the infantile level of the comments by Israeli officials to Rouhani’s opening. Israel acts like a spoiled child because it is a spoiled child. Blame the parent

      • Donald
        September 26, 2013, 6:55 pm

        ” I didn’t read even not one comment calling for peace and reconciliation or calling to stop terrorism and brutal military activities from both sides of this long conflict.”

        Well, you’ve not been around here for that long, but I think many of us think Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians is immoral, just as Israeli violence against Palestinians is immoral. The Israelis have far more power and inflict much more harm, and within the US at least this isn’t pointed out very often–Obama, for instance, condemns rockets aimed at Sderot and empathizes with Israeli parents, but has never said one thing about Israeli war crimes or their shooting at random Palestinians in Gaza. Susan Rice fought to have the Goldstone Report shelved. So it’s good to have a few websites like this one fighting against this attitude.

        It’s not the only example of US hypocrisy, of course–just now I finished watching a debate on PBS over how to deal with Iran and the person taking the middle position, who is optimistic about reaching a deal, mentioned the extremely harsh sanctions on Iran with approval, saying that this is why Iran is more cooperative now. That’s the typical attitude in the US–civilians in countries whose governments we don’t like are fair game. We can wreck their economy, make their lives a misery, and with the controls on Iran’s financial dealings with the outside world make it practically impossible to obtain medicine. It’s our right–we’re like little gods. Israel’s attitude towards Palestinians and Iranians is on the same level.

        But I agree that Palestinian terror aimed at Israeli civilians is wrong and I also agree that Israelis who were born in Israel are living in their own homeland, so anyone calling for Jews of European descent to leave Israel is effectively calling for another ethnic cleansing. You will find some who think that any action in a conflict is legitimate, so those are presumably the people you’re talking about, though you might also be misunderstanding some. But I’m sort of curious–how is support for Palestinian terrorism or even ethnic cleansing of Israel any different from what Israeli policy has been towards Palestinians?

        “I call you to close this web site or, at least, to change its structure to more balanced and reliable one by writing journalistic articles based on examination of all facts without bias to one side only.”

        This is absurd. Of all the websites on this topic, you think this one should be balanced? But if that’s your taste, I gotta give Peter Beinart some credit here. “Open Zion” on its front pages has everything from Palestinians calling for a 1SS, to the ludicrous ravings of the Israeli right. It’s not really balanced, though, because they don’t have anyone in favor of pro-Palestinian terror, only people who oppose Israeli terror vs. people who support Israeli terror. People who oppose terror on both sides are seen as extreme by the pro-Israel terror folk. And the comment section is filled with pro-Israel types. Few of them even pretend to be liberal Zionists. Maybe you’d find that more balanced.

        Presumably you’ve made it a point to call for the closing down of all the pro-Israeli websites? I assume we can take that for granted.

      • Cliff
        September 26, 2013, 7:28 pm

        Kahane said:

        I do not think I have the right to disturb you in your mission, but since you hurt my people, I call you to close this web site or, at least, to change its structure to more balanced and reliable one by writing journalistic articles based on examination of all facts without bias to one side only.

        Look, this isn’t the West Bank. You’re not going to get your way here.

        If you want to boss people around, then suit up in an IDF uniform and go pick on Palestinian children.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2013, 9:13 pm

        Most of them are innocent people that have nothing with the conflict and pray every day to see the end of it.

        As usual, you are simply making it up as you go along, the will of the majority is reflected in the governments they have consistently elected.

        None if the governments have agreed to end the occupation, return stolen land, stop illegal settlements, or end the military aggression against the Palestinians.

        – 90% supposed the Cast Lead massacre
        – The majority supporter the assault on the flotilla
        – The majority support settlements in the OT, both in EJ and the West Bank, so they support ongoing human rights abuses and crimes under international law
        – when Obama gave his Cairo speech calling for an end to settlements, his approval rating in Israel dropped to single digits

        Thus, these is no data or evidence to support your claims.

        By the methods you use to promote your ideas you, unintentionally, hurt these innocent people.

        The only thing hurt is their sense if entitlement. Meanwhile, the methods Israel uses (which you defend) not only hurt innocent Palestinians, but kill them.

        You created this web site which is a home to many Israel haters, part of them support terror and brutal activities against the Jewish residents of Israel.

        You only believe that because you are a liar with no interest in honest debate. You are simply here to defend the status quo who refuses to recognize the right of Palestinians to resist occupation.

        As an apologist for Israel, you’re perfectly happy to support Israeli terrorism (which is how Israel was created) and ongoing violence against Palestinian residents of Palestine.

        I do believe you and your fellow travelers are a racists and bigots (although you won’t declare it) who spreads their views hiding behind the Holocaust.

        Since I participate in this site, I didn’t see any mercy or little understanding of the Jewish population sufferings, no matter the reasons of the sufferings.

        Seeing as the suffering exists entirely in your imagination, that’s to be expected. Like Miriam, you are perfectly adept at turning albums eye to the very real suffering of Palestinians and focusing entirely on what you believe might be possible, future suffering of Israeli Jews under some future where the Palestinians might treat the Jews the se way they have been treating Palestinians.

        I didn’t read even not one comment calling for peace and reconciliation or calling to stop terrorism and brutal military activities from both sides of this long conflict.

        Again, you are back to the Hasbara trope of apportioning equal lame to the rapist and his victim. The side overwhelmingly at fault is. Israel is Also infinitely more powerful in every sense and holds all the cards. They could unilaterally resolve the conflict overnight if they chose to. The Palestinians do not have that option. They are entirely at the mercy of Israel.

        No one had suggested Jews must leave Israel for ever. You area again lying.

        No one here has hurt your people. Your people are the ones UN the wrong doing all the hurting.

        I call you to close this web site or, at least, to change its structure to more balanced and reliable one by writing journalistic articles based on examination of all facts without bias to one side only.

        We all know that is the reason you’re resent here, to close it down, but you come across as a comical tragic and tone deaf racist.

        But this argument illustrates the depths and breadth of your lies and dishonesty. You’ve been repeatedly challenged and invited to link to reports and sources that back up your claims and you have repeatedly refused to do so on the grounds that, according to you, doing so is propaganda.

        Now you’re insisting that this web site change to reporting and sourcing of reports that is more to your liking.

        I think it it about time you lived up to your promise to Shmuel a few weeks ago that if you weer proven wrong, you would never comment here again. Go away MahaneYehude1 and stay away and tell your hasbara mother ship that they need new material. Your efforts here have not only been a miserable failure, but have only underscored the depravity, sadism and ideological sickness of Zionism.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2013, 10:15 pm

        Isn’t it typical god MY1 pretends to be a liberal Zionist, yet sounds just like a Fox News promotion – fair and balanced, where the truth is regarded as something that sits between right wing and far right wing reporting.

      • eljay
        September 26, 2013, 10:39 pm

        >> … you want to see the end of Israel as a state of a Jewish people.

        Israel has no right to exist as a supremacist “Jewish State”.

        >> Since I participate in this site, I didn’t see any mercy or little understanding of the Jewish population sufferings, no matter the reasons of the sufferings. I didn’t read even not one comment calling for peace and reconciliation or calling to stop terrorism and brutal military activities from both sides of this long conflict.

        1. You are either illiterate or a liar.
        2. The rapist continues to keep his victim chained up in his basement, and he continues to rape her. She continues to slap and punch him. And you’re content to blame both of them for the lack of reconciliation. Shameful.

        >> I do not think I have the right to disturb you in your mission, but since you hurt my people, I call you to close this web site …

        Zio-supremacists and the supremacist “Jewish State” have been hurting, terrorizing, torturing, killing and stealing from people, and destroying their homes, lives and livelihoods, for over 60 years.

        I call on you, your Zio-supremacist co-collectivists and your supremacist “Jewish State” to end:
        – your ON-GOING occupation and colonization of Palestine;
        – your refusal to honour your obligations under international law;
        – your refusal to be held accountable for past and ON-GOING (war) crimes;
        – your refusal to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace; and
        – your refusal to transform Israel from a supremacist “Jewish State” into a secular, democratic and egalitarian Israeli state – a state of and for all Israelis, equally.

      • RoHa
        September 26, 2013, 10:41 pm

        ” I didn’t read even not one comment calling for peace and reconciliation ”

        But there are plenty of such comments on this site. Just by looking at my own comments I found plenty.

        Start here.
        link to mondoweiss.net
        Read AhVee, john h, and RoHa.

        Look at Ahmed’s article at the top, and my comment at the bottom.
        link to mondoweiss.net

        (Other comments there, too.)

        And
        link to mondoweiss.net

        link to mondoweiss.net

        Reconciliation is a constant theme here.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 26, 2013, 11:30 pm

        @Philip Weiss: Thanks for your reply and explanation. I already understand, before reading your reply, your interest in ending US support for Israel and your opinions and views about my state. In my original comment to you, I didn’t mention the Israeli policy, the occupation, the discriminatory system (according to you), etc. I didn’t want to open debate on the conflict, something that I and others doing countless times. I only speak about the innocent peoples of this conflicts from both sides that become, unintentionally, targets to your (plural) campaign against the Israeli policy. Such campaign leads to a demonization of the whole Jewish population of Israel, regardless their views, positions and their involvement in the conflict. If you, please, let me use your analogy “blame the parents” I would say “blame the parents, but don’t beat the children and the babies”.

        Best Regards.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 26, 2013, 11:49 pm

        @Donald: Thank you very much. That what I mean: a balanced comment that express your anti-Israel policy, although I don’t agree, but a balanced comment that understand that behind the term “Israeli Policy” there are human beings like other human beings on this planet. I sure it was not hard to write your critic on Israeli policy, part I don’t agree and part I agree, but to express sympathy to the population by saying “But I agree that Palestinian terror aimed at Israeli civilians is wrong and I also agree that Israelis who were born in Israel are living in their own homeland” or “anyone calling for Jews of European descent to leave Israel is effectively calling for another ethnic cleansing”. Maybe, as you say, I misunderstand some, but the majority write their views directly without double meaning and I think everyone can understand them with no problems.

        I also, like you, don’t like other unbalanced sites, even not pro-Israeli sites, that can’t see the sufferings of the other side of this conflict, and, unfortunately, there is a lot of sufferings among the innocent people. Any way, I do appreciate you for your reply and understanding.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 27, 2013, 12:08 am

        @Shingo and eljay: My comment to Philip Weiss deals with one issue which is the sufferings of the innocent peoples of this conflicts, you can agree or not agree with me, it is your right but your replies are not different from your usual comments and don’t intend to reply directly to my topic. Since in this time I decided not to open long thread after my comments I will not reply in comprehensive way to you although I read your comments carefully including the following paragraph:

        “I think it it about time you lived up to your promise to Shmuel a few weeks ago that if you weer proven wrong, you would never comment here again. Go away MahaneYehude1 and stay away and tell your hasbara mother ship that they need new material. Your efforts here have not only been a miserable failure, but have only underscored the depravity, sadism and ideological sickness of Zionism”

        Now, if you really think that I am Hasbara and not a regular Israeli citizen and I write my comments under the supervision of my boss in Hasbara office, just say so and I will think again about my replies to you in the future.
        Also, when you write “which you defend” in the following sentence “the methods Israel uses (which you defend) not only hurt innocent Palestinians, but kill them”, only show me that you don’t really want to know me and understand me as one that never defend military actions and killing.

        @RoHa: Thank you for your reply. Indeed, there are several comments as you picked up but, unfortunately, they are not represent the “spirit” here. Any way, thank you and I appreciate your efforts. I don’t reply personally since, this time I decide to make it short and not monopolize the thread.

      • Shingo
        September 27, 2013, 2:43 am

        but a balanced comment that understand that behind the term “Israeli Policy” there are human beings like other human beings on this planet

        Nazis were human beings too. So are KKK and white supremacists. That doesn’t make their opinions as valid as their detractors.

        I also, like you, don’t like other unbalanced sites, even not pro-Israeli sites

        In which case, please link to your comments calling for them to shut down, change their reporting etc.

        That should reveal to us once and for alligator you really do care about balance, or are a racist hypocrite.

        Many thanks.

      • Shingo
        September 27, 2013, 3:26 am

        blockquote> My comment to Philip Weiss deals with one issue which is the sufferings of the innocent peoples of this conflicts, you can agree or not agree with me, it is your right but your replies are not different from your usual comments and don’t intend to reply directly to my topic.

        Rubbish. Your comment was based in the demonstrably false claim that most Israelis pray for peace and an end to the conflict. They are also based on the lie that the conflict is between 2 sides with the same power, same culpability and who have experienced the same degree of injustice and suffering.

        Your claim about innocence also deserves closer scrutiny. How innocent are Israeli civilians who support the crimes of the governments they elect? When the public supports the crimes of their government, then they are hardly innocent.

        only show me that you don’t really want to know me and understand me as one that never defend military actions and killing.

        You’re right MY1, I have no desire to know you. Your ideology, dishonesty, racism and sense of entitlement, and denial of Israel’s crimes are not qualities I respect. Israel’s military actions all stem back to the fact that Israel is acting illegally and protecting it’s hold on illegally acquired territory.

      • Shmuel
        September 27, 2013, 3:29 am

        MY1 yesterday:

        Ban me? don’t worry – it will come sooner or later. One of the techniques to silence unwanted guests.

        MY1 today:

        I call you to close this web site

        A breathtaking (and emblematic) transformation from maudlin victim to arrogant bully.

      • Shingo
        September 27, 2013, 3:30 am

        I only speak about the innocent peoples of this conflicts from both sides that become, unintentionally, targets to your (plural) campaign against the Israeli policy.

        The rapist and his victim are not both equally innocent. The majority of Israel’s population support the criminality of their movement and have done since it was founded. The innocent are those that oppose these policies, which is a tiny minority.

        Such campaign leads to a demonization of the whole Jewish population of Israel, regardless their views, positions and their involvement in the conflict.

        So be it. They say people get the governments they deserve.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 27, 2013, 4:41 am

        @Shmuel: Again, personal attacks, quoting part sentences and ignoring the things I wrote in my original comment.

      • German Lefty
        September 27, 2013, 7:07 am

        Israel acts like a spoiled child because it is a spoiled child. Blame the parent.

        I don’t agree with that. Israel might act like a spoiled child, but it’s not a child. The Israeli government consists of adults. And adults are fully liable for their own crimes. Therefore, Israel is the main culprit. Western countries can only be considered accomplices.

      • Elliot
        September 27, 2013, 7:31 am

        Uncle Sam is indeed the parent. I’ve posted this before. Israel reminds me of a rebellious teenager. Its founding fathers and mothers were just that: revolutionary Eastern European teenagers. They left home, changed their names, rejecting their parents’ values while living off money from that old world back in the heim.
        The Israeli mentality today is still truculent yet completely dependent. “Give us your money and your love, or else” alongside “shut up. what do you know about anything.”

      • amigo
        September 27, 2013, 8:25 am

        M1,2 or 3??.

        So you are about to be banned eh.

        Just look on the bright side.

        You improved your English immensely while you were here.

        Maybe now you should troll on a Russian version of MW next.

        You could move from being a tater trader to the worlds leading Linguist.

        Hell, you could even have debates with Chomsky.

      • yrn
        September 27, 2013, 8:41 am

        Elliot

        Are you speaking as an Israeli ?

      • German Lefty
        September 27, 2013, 1:40 pm

        @ yrn: As far as I know, Elliot is an Israeli Jew.

      • Elliot
        September 27, 2013, 6:44 pm

        @yrn
        Elliot
        Are you speaking as an Israeli ?

        I certainly used to be this kind of Israeli and did not know it. It took a couple of visits to the States and listening to Israel’s staunch Jewish supporters here to wake up to this rebellious, ungrateful attitude. Israeli hopsitals and universities are plastered with plaques attesting to their Jewish donors around the world. Israel’s parliament and Supreme Court were donated by non-Israeli Jews. Not to mention the constant military and political life support that the United States gives Israel.
        Yet, official Jerusalem – in Israel and when they travel here – treat “Disapora Jews” and “goyim” with a sneer. Read Netanyahu’s condescending statements to Jews around the world. I’ve seen it and heard it in official and off-the-cuff asides of Israeli diplomats and regular Yossis too many times to count.
        It’s not all Israelis of course but this truculent, adolescent attitude is a mainstream Israeli trope. And, it can be traced back to Israel’s founding father, David Ben Gurion and the rest of his cohorts in Israel’s founding generation of the so-called “Second Aliya”.

      • yonah fredman
        September 27, 2013, 12:10 am

        Phil, you write, “I don’t deny the presence of the Holocaust, but I emphasize the reality of genocide as a historical human condition that all peoples must deal with.”

        This is a fine sentiment, but very detached and very third person. When my niece, whose parents moved to Israel 13 years ago, went to the camps in Poland as her senior trip, I was asked to send a note which she might read during her trip. I wrote, that I wished that she could be saved from this experience and I wish she would not have to confront such a history.

        I myself have never gone to the camps of Poland, nor to my grandparents’ birthplaces in Byelorussia or the Ukraine, nor to my great grandparents’ mass burial sites in those two places. Watching a documentary on the Khurban sets me back a week or so (and even a film like Hotel Rwanda sets me back a day or so) and so I do not imagine that a visit to the killing fields would do me much better. To that extent I envy your ability to view genocide as a historical human condition that all peoples must deal with, rather than as something that wounded my two grandmothers (of blessed memory) deeply and bruised me and continues to bruise my nieces and nephews.

        I think you should admit that your grandparents’ or great grandparents’ arrival in America took place early enough so that the only losses to genocide you suffered were quite distant from your immediate family. As Marc Ellis points out the Khurban should not be used to excuse the suffering (deaths and exile) of the Palestinians. But you should admit, that the Khurban is mostly third person to you and your experience of it is far different than that of many Israeli Jews.

        Now as far as your attitude towards Judaism: “I don’t want to remove or slight or diminish Jewish culture or Jewish religion, inasmuch as they are meaningful to many folks”– again this is third person. You have little stake in Jewish culture and Jewish religion, only insofar as you oppose Jewish nationalism. You have disparaged Talmud and you are distant from Jewish culture and religion. This is fine. This is what makes America great, that one can start anew with the blank slate that America provides. (That blank slate was/is not so blank for African Americans or native Americans or other Americans of color, but that is a separate point.) But you are not a defender of Jewish culture nor an advocate for Jewish culture.

        I do not think preserving Jewish culture is sufficient reason to excuse the exile of the Palestinians from their villages, but it is an issue that deserves serious attention. It is okay that it is not one of your priorities, but you usually don’t pretend that it is.

        Kafka, by the way, is a great and essential writer and I am proud that he was Jewish.

        I understand that Jewish nationalism as expressed through Modern Zionism (as distinct from classical Zionism- as in the yearning for Jerusalem without a political prescription) and the state of Israel has produced much suffering and I do not have an exact recipe how to turn it into something more neutral or even positive. You wish to end Jewish nationalism and it is quite bracing to hear how unequivocal you are about that. I certainly do not wish to end Jewish nationalism, although as I wrote I have no formula for turning it into a nationalism that can coexist with Arab nationalism and Palestinian nationalism. Nationalism is not the greatest thing ever invented. But particularly in the middle east, nationalism or pan Arabism or pan Islamism are not movements that will disappear in the next 50 years and so Jewish nationalism has its place in the world as well. Certainly all the mentioned movements: nationalism, Arab nationalism, Islamism and Jewish nationalism, must be tamed and the arc of history indicates that clashes will take place before rationalism and concern for all humans tames any or all of those “ism”s, but I cannot sign on to the cause of wishing to end Jewish nationalism, outside of the context of the wider struggle to tame all of those “ism”s.

      • yonah fredman
        September 27, 2013, 12:32 am

        BTW, Phil. I realize that you are under no obligation to reveal anything about your family that you choose not to, but I think it might be instructive sociologically to know: how many of your siblings married Jews, how many nieces and nephews you have. It would also be interesting to inform us, when your grandparents or great grandparents moved to America.

      • Shmuel
        September 27, 2013, 3:17 am

        Yonah,

        I think there is a difference between personal, family, communal (and to a degree, national) trauma, and cultivated/inculcated vicarious trauma. I share your personal feelings, but am aware of the fact that they are not and cannot be shared by my daughter. The Israeli Education Ministry is also aware of this, and of the fact that books and lessons cannot possibly induce the kind of identification and “repetition” desired to achieve ideological and political objectives that have little if anything to do with the kind of natural trauma you describe. That is why the trips to Poland were devised and the programme expanded to most high school seniors. It is psychological manipulation with a clear ideological message (articulated by Phil’s passenger), as one of the kids’ last formal educational experiences before conscription.

        I know the following is incidental to your comment, but I can’t just let it slide:

        Modern Zionism (as distinct from classical Zionism- as in the yearning for Jerusalem without a political prescription)

        That’s sleight of hand. Zionism is a modern term that describes a modern phenomenon. To apply it to pre-modern Jewish attitudes to Zion is an anachronism, designed to create the illusion of continuity between two very different historical phenomena.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 27, 2013, 7:26 am

        “but I think it might be instructive sociologically to know: how many of your siblings married Jews, how many nieces and nephews you have.”

        How is this relevant to anything?

      • American
        September 27, 2013, 10:04 am

        “”To that extent I envy your ability to view genocide as a historical human condition that all peoples must deal with, rather than as something that wounded my two grandmothers (of blessed memory) deeply and bruised me and continues to bruise my nieces and nephews.
        “…yonah>>>

        You should envy it. Your personal grief and your loses are not any more important than others grief and loses. I am old enough to have seen people lose loved ones from many human conditions, war, disease–they grieve, they receive sympathy and support from their friends—eventually their grief becomes a private one—–they dont go out every day the rest of their lives and say …”look at My loses’….and demand everyone around them notice and worship their personal lose forever.
        I dare say most of us have known someone who thinks they are the only one who has ever suffered or lost anything. The selfishness of their self pity becomes overwhelming and people avoid them.
        That is what is happening with your holocaust angst.

      • Citizen
        September 28, 2013, 10:13 am

        @ yonah fredman
        Why don’t you first instruct us about you sociologically, as you say? How many of your siblings married Gentiles? How many nieces and nephews you have? When did you or your parents or grandparents move to Israel, and from where?

      • yonah fredman
        September 28, 2013, 5:19 pm

        Citizen- This is phil’s blog, not mine. and why i interact with someone who keeps mentioning that scene in Cabaret, I don’t know.

    • Woody Tanaka
      September 26, 2013, 11:08 am

      “but clearly the history of Europe between 1881 and 1945 (and to some extent America and its post WWI immigration policies) cannot be denied as a primary cause for the gathering of a sufficient number of Jews in Palestine to make the war of 47-48 practically inevitable.”

      No, the primary cause was the fact that those Jews who went from Europe to Palestine did not respect the Palestinians and their human rights. Each one of them who went there to start a zionist country committed a crime and you double that crime by excusing it, justifying it, or blaming it on the Europeans.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 26, 2013, 11:51 am

        And let me further note, though, that this is in no way approving of the way the Jews were treated in Europe. But one wrong does not justify another.

    • libra
      September 26, 2013, 5:33 pm

      yonah fredman … as the Khurban (I prefer that to the “sacred” term Holocaust)…

      yonah, this utter determination to be out of step with others in order to assert some sort of moral superiority is what marks you out as an individual. How wonderfully ironic that you moved to Israel.

  21. kma
    September 26, 2013, 1:21 am

    stupid question because the heroic answer in any country is yes, and probably none of the guy’s friends are going to die. as seafoid points out, it is Palestinians doing the dying. stupid question. Millions in the middle east are dying due to what we are doing, and Phil is asking people how much they love a Jewish state?
    what the hell?
    sounds a bit too romantic.

    • German Lefty
      September 26, 2013, 4:09 am

      stupid question because the heroic answer in any country is yes

      No, it’s not. In any hawkish country, “yes” would be considered the heroic answer. In any dovish country, “yes” would be considered the idiotic answer.

  22. Citizen
    September 26, 2013, 4:55 am

    Once upon a time, were many young German soldiers to have been asked Phil’s question, they would’ve replied they were fighting the eternal Jew who stabbed Germany in the back, fighting his Judeo-Bolshevik (and international banker) crazies and their flunky hoards in behalf the whole civilized world.
    Even Hitler’s assault on Russia was deemed a preventative/preemptive action.

    In short, they had their insurance policy ideology too, the death of a niece or nephew part of the premium paid for the survival of the superior collective. It’s worthwhile to die for immortality on earth as it is in heaven (if heaven exists).

  23. iResistDe4iAm
    September 26, 2013, 10:51 am

    “my grandfather come here and dream about it, to be in Israel…”

    Every living Palestinian’s grandfather and/or grandmother, and great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents, and so on, are from Palestine. Palestine is their ancestral homeland, not Jordan, not Syria, not Chile, not Lebanon, not the United States, not anywhere else.

    And Palestinians dream about living in their ancestral homeland free from occupation and oppression.

    And every ethnically cleansed Palestinian and their descendants — living in Israeli-enforced exile — have the right to return to their ancestral homeland. Most of them live a short distance away on the other side of the border and they won’t be waiting 2,000 years (or 80 generations) to return.

    Therein lies the problem for Israel, the self declared Jewish State.

    • mondonut
      September 26, 2013, 12:17 pm

      iResistDe4iAm says: Every living Palestinian’s grandfather and/or grandmother, and great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents, and so on, are from Palestine.
      ===================================================
      Given that this is so fantastically unrealistic I will assume that it just hyperbole. Even Arafat himself had a grandparent not from Palestine.

      And the UNRWA designates individuals as original refugees if they have lived in areas effected by the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, for a minimum of only two years, before being displaced.

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2013, 9:22 pm

        Given that this is so fantastically unrealistic I will assume that it just hyperbole. Even Arafat himself had a grandparent not from Palestine.

        Nor were the gandparents of every Israeli prime minister.

        Seriously though just because Arafat did not have grandparents from Palestine, doesn’t mean the majority of Palestinians did not. It’s a provable fact that they did.

        And the UNRWA designates individuals as original refugees if they have lived in areas effected by the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, for a minimum of only two years, before being displaced.

        That’s irrelevant to how long Palestinian had existed in the region and how long their ancestors go back. UNWRA recognizes that anyone who lived in Palestine for 2 years or more deserved to be considered a resident of the territory.

      • iResistDe4iAm
        September 26, 2013, 10:22 pm

        mondonut says: “Even Arafat himself had a grandparent not from Palestine.”

        Even Obama himself had two grandparents not from the United States, but he hasn’t been denied his birth rights nor stripped of his American citizenship.

        Similarly Oliver Tambo, Thabo Mbeki, and many others didn’t lose their South African ancestry and birth rights simply by being forced to live in exile.

        All Palestinians, including Jewish Palestinians (prior to Zionist colonization) are indigenous to what is now Israel/Palestine, and no armies, armistice borders or revisions of history can change that fact.

      • mondonut
        September 27, 2013, 12:51 am

        iResistDe4iAm says:Even Obama himself had two grandparents not from the United States, but he hasn’t been denied his birth rights nor stripped of his American citizenship.
        ============================================
        Of course he has not, but that has nothing to do with your assertion – proven false by Arafat himself.

      • iResistDe4iAm
        September 27, 2013, 9:27 am

        mondonut says: “your assertion – proven false by Arafat himself.”

        Do you realise each person has four grandparents and do you understand the concept of and/or?

        Arafat is a Palestinian born in Cairo to Palestinian parents. One of his grandparents (paternal grandmother) was Egyptian, the rest were Palestinian.

        Arafat is a Palestinian, unlike the young man’s grandfather, the one mentioned in the video who we are told dreamt about, and migrated to Palestine (or Israel).

  24. German Lefty
    September 26, 2013, 1:48 pm

    Here’s a new talk by Abir Kopty about Palestinians in Israel:

    • German Lefty
      September 27, 2013, 6:16 am

      Q & A with Abir Kopty: link to youtube.com

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 27, 2013, 9:15 am

        @GL: Thank you German lefty for the videos. If I have to choose one Israeli Palestinian represents the spirit of the Israeli democracy and the integration of the Israeli Palestinians into the Israeli society, I certainly would vote for Abir Kopty (and, yes, I saw her articles here in MW).

      • German Lefty
        September 27, 2013, 1:09 pm

        If I have to choose one Israeli Palestinian represents the spirit of the Israeli democracy and the integration of the Israeli Palestinians into the Israeli society, I certainly would vote for Abir Kopty.

        MahaneYehude1, your incredibly ignorant comment makes me really angry.
        1) If Israel were a democracy, then Ms Kopty wouldn’t have to give that talk in the first place.
        2) The idea that Palestinians need to integrate is totally ridiculous. Israel was built on Palestinian land. Palestinians are the indigenous people. Therefore, they are not the ones who must integrate. It’s the Jewish immigrants and their descendants who need to adapt to the Palestinian society if they want to live in historic Palestine.

      • Shmuel
        September 27, 2013, 1:45 pm

        If I have to choose one Israeli Palestinian represents the spirit of the Israeli democracy and the integration of the Israeli Palestinians into the Israeli society, I certainly would vote for Abir Kopty

        How wonderfully condescending of you.

        Abir Kopty on “Israeli democracy”:

        Social justice can’t be divided or categorized. If it is not justice to all including all Palestinians, then it is a fake justice, elite justice or “Justice for Jews only” exactly as the Israeli democracy functions “for Jews only”.

        Abir Kopty on the “integration” of Palestinian citizens of Israel:

        Despite 64 years of Israeli attempts to wipe us off the map, to destroy and distort our identity, to erase the history of the land, we managed to remain, maintain our identity, and revive our narrative, culture and unity. Unsurprisingly, this effort has always been seen by the Israeli government as a threat.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 27, 2013, 5:56 pm

        @GL:

        First, don’t be angry. I expected to receive such reply hence I wrote in brackets “I saw her articles here in MW” to show you I know the person. I know Abir Kopty very well for long time and read several of her views in Ynet Israeli web site. Abir graduated in Haifa University, a member of Nazareth city council and not mention she is…. . Still, I think that Abir is a model of Israeli democracy in which any person has the right of speech, and can criticize freely the Israeli policy and the Israeli society. I know that in Europe it is a basic right and very normal, but in the ME countries it is not something normal, except in Israel.

        in an interview to Haaretz (in Hebrew) she criticizes Israel in many aspects, but in other hand, she says she understand the fear of the Israeli Jewish population, she accepts the state of Israel, she against terror attacks etc.
        link to haaretz.co.il

      • German Lefty
        September 30, 2013, 11:51 am

        I think that Abir is a model of Israeli democracy in which any person has the right of speech, and can criticize freely the Israeli policy and the Israeli society.

        As long as Israel
        – defines itself as a Jewish state and thereby negates the existence of non-Jewish Israelis
        – withholds Israeli citizenship from the Palestinian refugees and their descendants
        it cannot be considered a democracy.

        I know that in Europe it is a basic right and very normal, but in the ME countries it is not something normal, except in Israel.

        Western politicians view Israel as a Western country. Israel, too, considers itself a Western country. NuttyYahoo said that “Europe begins in Israel”. Therefore, when judging Israel, we must compare it to other Western countries, not to its non-Western neighbouring countries. And compared to other Western countries, Israel is rather undemocratic. Listen to Abir Kopty’s talk that I linked above. She can explain it to you.

        she accepts the state of Israel, she against terror attacks

        I just read the German Google translation of the article. The sentence structure is a nightmare, but I think that I could figure out what Abir Kopty said. Apparently, she accepts Israel as an Israeli state, not as a Jewish state. Also, she thinks that violent resistance is a bad idea. And I agree with her on this. However, this doesn’t change the fact that Palestinians have a right to violent resistance.

        By the way, MY1, what happened to your English? At first, it was bad. Then it was good. And now it’s bad again.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 30, 2013, 12:20 pm

        “By the way, MY1, what happened to your English? At first, it was bad. Then it was good. And now it’s bad again.”

        There was a shift change at the Ministry of Hasbara and Public Enlightenment.

  25. kalithea
    September 26, 2013, 1:50 pm

    Notice how the hitchhiker interview starts with “if your friend had to die” and ends with “I am willing to kill…I do this for the world, not just for Israel.” He’s willing to kill Palestinians for all of us! The nerve…NO THANKS, don’t do me any favors.

    So really it’s all about KILLING and not sacrifice. I don’t like the question to begin with. There’s a selfish connotation in there: it makes it seem like it’s all about the Zionist sacrifice to preserve the homeland. What about the slaughter of Palestinians year in and year out since the creation of this Jewish state? Is that worth it?

    Oh at let’s not forget this is a “supremacist” state! Racist snitches are everywhere:

    link to timesofisrael.com

    Imagine, someone snitching on YOU because you’re in love with a gentile? Imagine if in America young people were spied on and discouraged from dating Jews…oh me…oh my…Aipac and the ADL would shatter every window in Congress with their screams of anti-semitism! There would be Jewish riots in the street. But Palestinians are subjected to this outrage and not even a peep on the mainstream or anywhere that matters.

    Why not stitch a yellow star and crescent or the symbol for “Allah” to their clothing so those Jewish girls can discriminate against them off the bat and move on to the nice Jewish boy?

    Israel, something Jews can be “real proud” of!

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