Violence works– by ending complacency

Israel/Palestine
on 182 Comments

Perhaps the most bracing part of Ian Lustick’s funeral for the two-state solution in the New York Times a week ago was the realist scholar’s blunt statement that conflict in Israel and Palestine is unpreventable. Though there will be less potential for “catastrophic” violence, he counseled, if leaders abandoned their belief in the two-state paradigm and sought to imagine more realistic ways forward.

 The question is not whether the future has conflict in store for Israel-Palestine. It does. Nor is the question whether conflict can be prevented. It cannot. But avoiding truly catastrophic change means ending the stifling reign of an outdated idea and allowing both sides to see and then adapt to the world as it is.

This statement is especially meaningful to me because every time I visit the conflict, I see the inevitability of violence. The oppression is so staggering and long-lived, and the Israeli attachment to the status quo is so blind and complacent — they call it conflict management — that it seems that the only way there will be change is through violence.

A similar theme was struck by Nathan Thrall in his piece that anticipated Lustick last month: “What Future for Israel?” in the New York Review of Books. Thrall wrote that violence had erased Israeli complacency on an earlier occasion, the Second Intifada.

The Palestinian uprising in 2000 had many positive consequences: It led to the first statement by an American president calling for a Palestinian state and a similar pledge by Israeli PM Ariel Sharon– a dramatic change from Oslo’s declaration of “some form of limited autonomy.” It led to the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and, more importantly, to the Arab Peace Initiative.

Thrall wrote:

An inescapable and likely unintended conclusion one draws from [Elliott] Abrams’s behind-the-scenes account of policymaking during the second intifada between 2000 and 2005 [in Abrams’s book, Tested by Zion] is how effective violence was in eliminating Israeli complacency and advancing Palestinian goals. Less than a year into the uprising, pressures from Saudi Crown Prince Abdallah—in the form of tearful pleas for America to restrain Israel and a secret letter that, Abrams writes, “put US-Saudi relations in the balance”—led the US to endorse Palestinian statehood. Ariel Sharon soon followed with his own statement of support for a Palestinian state, becoming Israel’s first prime minister to do so.

As the Palestinian ambushes, sniper fire, and suicide bombings continued, Sharon abandoned his decades-long dream of retaining Gaza and all of the West Bank. “The bloodshed was so great,” Abrams writes, “that Sharon lifted his year-old” policy of demanding seven days of quiet before he would negotiate a cease-fire with the Palestinians. Later he used the word “occupation” before a Likud Knesset faction meeting, saying it “cannot go on forever.” As pressure mounted to end the violence, Sharon announced that Israel would withdraw from Gaza

So the violence had the effect of completely reversing Israeli policy:

Former Israeli foreign minister Shlomo Ben-Ami wrote in his memoir, Scars of War, Wounds of Peace (Oxford University Press, 2007), “As a matter of fact, neither Rabin nor, especially, Peres wanted [Palestinian limited] autonomy to usher in a Palestinian state. As late as 1997—that is, four years into the Oslo process when, as the chairman of the Labour Party’s Foreign Affairs Committee I proposed for the first time that the party endorse the idea of a Palestinian state—it was Shimon Peres who most vehemently opposed the idea.”

And in another footnote Thrall pointed out that the Arab Peace Initiative also arose from the horrifying violence of the Second Intifada. The images of destruction caused many parties to rethink their approaches:

Calls for an end of conflict proliferated in the period surrounding Sharon’s December 2003 announcement. They included Saudi Crown Prince Abdallah’s peace plan, which would form the basis of the Arab Peace Initiative; the People’s Choice Initiative by Ami Ayalon and Sari Nusseibeh; the US-created Roadmap for Middle East Peace, which demanded that Israel withdraw from all settlements built since Sharon took office in March 2001; an open letter from Israeli pilots protesting civilian casualties in Gaza; another open letter, from members of the elite special forces unit Sayeret Matkal, vowing to “no longer give our hands to the oppressive reign in the territories and the denial of human rights to millions of Palestinians…[and] no longer serve as a defensive shield for the settlement enterprise”; and the Geneva Initiative, which was drafted by former Palestinian and Israeli negotiators and was met, to Sharon’s dismay, with official responses from Bush and Secretary of State Colin Powell. Abrams recalls Sharon’s reply when Bush asked why he had decided to withdraw from Gaza: “I didn’t want other people, even you with all the problems you have, to press me. It was better to take steps ourselves.”

I asked Thrall about this analysis, and he pointed me to an earlier argument he made, in the New York Times in June 2012, a piece tilted, “The Third Intifada Is Inevitable.”

The second option is armed confrontation. Although there is widespread apathy among Palestinians, and hundreds of thousands are financially dependent on the Palestinian Authority’s continued existence, a substantial number would welcome the prospect of an escalation, especially many supporters of Hamas, who argue that violence has been the most effective tactic in forcing Israel and the international community to act.

THEY believe that rocks, Molotov cocktails and mass protests pushed Israel to sign the Oslo Accords in 1993; that deadly strikes against Israeli troops in Lebanon led Israel to withdraw in 2000; that the bloodshed of the second intifada pressured George W. Bush to declare his support for Palestinian statehood and prodded the international community to produce the Arab Peace Initiative, the Geneva Initiative, and the Road Map for Middle East Peace. They are also convinced that arms pressured Ariel Sharon, then Israel’s prime minister, to evacuate settlers and troops from Gaza in 2005. …

For more militant Palestinian leaders, who never believed in the peace process, the lesson was clear: “Not an inch of Palestinian land will be liberated,” Mousa Abu Marzook, deputy head of Hamas’s political bureau, told me, “while Israelis feel that controlling it exacts few costs.” Matti Steinberg, a former senior adviser to Israeli security chiefs, described Mr. Abbas as the most obliging, nonviolent Palestinian leader Israel has encountered and warned of taking him for granted. “The Israeli center is caught in a vicious cycle,” he said. “It argues that it cannot make peace while there is violence, and when there is no violence it sees little reason to make peace.”

History may credit Mr. Abbas with reigning over the more virtuous phase of this cycle, but he has likely laid the groundwork for the uglier one. Hamas, meanwhile, has already moved on. “Israelis had a golden opportunity to sign an agreement with Abbas,” Hamas’s health minister, Basem Naim, told me in Gaza last November. “But the chance has already passed. They will not get it again.”

Thrall also explained that the Arab Peace Initiative was a direct outgrowth of Arab and Saudi frustration with the high Palestinian death toll of the second intifada (and in particular with what they perceived to be US inaction in bringing it to a close). He said this is a theme of the memoir of former Jordanian FM Marwan Muasher, who was the main shepherd of the API.

As I often say, this is why I am for BDS. It represents nonviolent pressure to force Israel to change its thinking and its path. I am always reminded of John Brown, the American crusader against slavery, who said that slavery could only be eliminated from the U.S. by “verry much blood.” At a time when others were urging endless compromises with slavery, Brown turned out to be prophetic. Retweets of John Brown don’t mean that I’m endorsing him.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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182 Responses

  1. American
    September 22, 2013, 11:10 am

    The only non violence that will work on Israel is *total economic strangulation.*
    It will take more than non governmental BDS to do that.
    Since world leaders wont do the crippling sanctions necessary for that there will be more violence.

    • Donald
      September 22, 2013, 12:33 pm

      I would oppose crippling sanctions of the sort that have been imposed on Iraq in the 90’s or Gaza and Iran now. It’s a form of warfare against civilians, including children. So I’d oppose them being applied to Israel for the same reason I oppose them in the other cases. Not that this is relevant–just registering my personal POV.

      Moving on to people who actually wield power or think like those who do, Western “liberals” such as the ones that write for the NYT support sanctions imposed on Iran–the NYT today implicitly endorsed them in an editorial which is otherwise cautiously optimistic regarding the new Iranian government. (The editorial is morally blind in all the ways one expects from the NYT, but they are clearly hopeful that a negotiated solution will come about, so that puts them on the opposite side from Netanyahu in that respect.) The NYT obviously thinks that harsh sanctions and sabotage (they don’t mention the terrorist attacks on Iranian scientists) have helped bring Iran to the point of wanting to negotiate, or at least acting like they want to negotiate. Whether their reading of the situation is correct or not, it certainly shows how they feel about crippling sanctions–they are a useful tool when imposed on Muslims.

      Try that with Israel. The screams would echo from coast to coast.

      Anyway, I agree that the West is not going to impose harsh sanctions on Israel. As for violence, who knows what might happen if the idiots get their way and war is declared on Iran? It probably won’t be a happy ending for anyone.

      • American
        September 22, 2013, 1:32 pm

        Donald says:
        September 22, 2013 at 12:33 pm

        I would oppose crippling sanctions of the sort that have been imposed on Iraq in the 90′s or Gaza and Iran now. It’s a form of warfare against civilians, including children. So I’d oppose them being applied to Israel for the same reason I oppose them in the other cases. Not that this is relevant–just registering my personal POV.”>>>>

        I oppose them also on general humantarian terms –but we are talking ‘real world options’ vr continuing violence on Israel’s part.
        More ‘talk’ is not solution option.
        “Put them on a diet” as they have done to Palestine and made the US do to Iran.
        Regardless of how harsh it sounds, to make Isr back off their Palestine and other ME agression you ‘will’ have to hurt them or ‘seriously’ threaten them with hurt.

      • Taxi
        September 23, 2013, 3:01 am

        American,

        Donald needs to get out more often. When it comes to war, when it comes to ‘kill or be killed’, when it comes to Donald personally being forced to make this choice of “kill or be killed”, I doubt that he would be whining about ‘morality’.

        @Donald: Dude, if you’re so rigidly ‘moral’, why don’t you go become a priest or something? You are a pacifist-extremist, a position that will never protect you or your children from the evils of the world. What would you do if, gawd forbid, you were a victim of a violent home invasion? Talk ‘morality’ with your crazed and violent invaders over a nice cup of tea?

        There is no civilized ‘therapy’ for evil. There is only one way of confronting it and that is through the use of righteous violence. Yes, you can have ‘righteous’ violence, the same way you can have an unrighteous pacifism that only leads to more violence and death.

      • Shegetz
        September 23, 2013, 7:40 am

        Yes, you can have ‘righteous’ violence, the same way you can have an unrighteous pacifism that only leads to more violence and death.

        Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” – Isaac Asimov

        Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you.” – Friedrich Nietzsche

        One should not directly confront evil, which only feeds it, but instead should steadfastly strengthen that which is good.

        Evil conditions come about from our own human weaknesses and frailties. It grows like a fungus in damp, shaded soil. Attack it all you want and it will just multiply like the Hydra. Remove the conditions (damp/shade) that the fungus thrives in and it vanishes almost magically.

        Violence begets more violence. To stop violence, you stop being violent and create conditions where violence is unacceptable and unnecessary.

        Otherwise you end up just like that which you claim to oppose. How do you think all these people got this way? So utterly compromised? Think about it a bit more please. People don’t choose to be ‘evil’. They generally think they’re the exact opposite and are ‘doing good’.

      • Taxi
        September 23, 2013, 8:02 am

        Thanks for your utopian philosophy, Shegetz. But I’m a survivalist: if someone tries to kill me or my family, I’m gonna use all my force to stop them, including violence. It’s not a desirable pleasure, but an unavoidable necessity. And yes, my conscience will become very troubled for it, but at least I’ll still have a conscience.

      • eljay
        September 23, 2013, 8:10 am

        >> Violence begets more violence. To stop violence, you stop being violent and create conditions where violence is unacceptable and unnecessary.

        Sounds good in theory and, for the most part, I agree. But this…

        >> People don’t choose to be ‘evil’.

        …I can’t agree with, because – in my opinion – it’s simply not true.

        People (individually or in groups) routinely choose to commit evil – that is to say, to commit immoral and/or unjust acts knowing full well that the acts they are committing are immoral and/or unjust.

      • Donald
        September 23, 2013, 4:44 pm

        “You are a pacifist-extremist”

        Nope. People should adhere to the laws of war, which allow for self-defense, and even collateral damage but not targeting civilians . If you’re not consistent in condemning atrocities no matter who commits them then it’s meaningless to talk about “evil”. This isn’t idealism or pacifism (I’m not a pacifist, btw)–it’s just common sense. Go visit Open Zion sometime and you’ll find people condemning the recent murder of the Israeli sergeant and they’re right–it was a disgusting thing to do. But the Zionists in the comments will never say one bad word about Israel’s long list of disgusting atrocities. Why be like them?

      • eljay
        September 23, 2013, 4:52 pm

        >> Donald @ September 23, 2013 at 4:44 pm

        Well said. :-)

      • Taxi
        September 24, 2013, 12:06 am

        Mahatma Donald and his intern eljay,

        I do agree with your OBVIOUS points in theory, minus the holier than tho tone. But really, all these theories are meaningless in practice. Go live in a war zone first before you ‘instruct’ others on the “rules” of war. Cuz you clearly don’t understand what it means to BE IN A WAR.

        War is the breakdown of everything civilized. There are no civilians in a war, there is only the enemy. This is the state of mind of war. And it was always forever thus.

      • eljay
        September 24, 2013, 8:01 am

        >> Mahatma Donald and his intern eljay

        Happy to be. :-)

        >> … Go live in a war zone first before you ‘instruct’ others on the “rules” of war. Cuz you clearly don’t understand what it means to BE IN A WAR.
        >> War is the breakdown of everything civilized. There are no civilians in a war, there is only the enemy. This is the state of mind of war. And it was always forever thus.

        Great. Then stop complaining when Israel – which justifies its actions by saying it is at war with an enemy that is trying to destroy it – kills Palestinians.

      • Donald
        September 24, 2013, 8:51 am

        “War is the breakdown of everything civilized. There are no civilians in a war, there is only the enemy. This is the state of mind of war”

        Which makes most of the moral condemnations made of Israel at this website meaningless. What was all that ruckus about the Goldstone Report about? And no, it’s not always the state of war–some wars are conducted more viciously than others. But if one adopts your attitude, it just becomes one side vs. another, there is no right or wrong involving how one fights or whether the casualties are soldiers or civilians or children and if one goes that far, why would the rights and wrongs of who started it matter any more than the rules of war? If you can target civilians, why can’t you steal their land?

        As for how I’d be in a war, I have no idea. People react very differently when they are in those situations. Some become tribalists and divide the world into US vs. Them and don’t care one bit what Our Side does to Their Side. Others are able to see the bigger picture. Some fall somewhere in-between. You assume I’d be a member of the first group. Maybe so.

      • Taxi
        September 24, 2013, 6:10 pm

        eljay and Donald,

        Big difference between predator violence and defensive violence. There is no ‘moral’ equivalence between them. Think about that.

        Listening to your sanctimonious utopian sentiments, I’m reminded of people who discuss war while sipping their 5pm cocktails.

        And what you shamefully always miss, is that there is no peace possible without justice. Seek justice and you will arrive at peace. No other way to peace, my dears. And like it or not, justice can sometimes involve violence. It’s not my personal “attitude”, it’s the way of the world.

        Your idealistic POV does not make you more moral or a better person than me.

      • American
        September 24, 2013, 6:52 pm

        But if one adopts your attitude, it just becomes one side vs. another, there is no right or wrong involving how one fights or whether the casualties are soldiers or civilians or children and if one goes that far, why would the rights and wrongs of who started it matter any more than the rules of war? “…..Donald

        What Donald do you think life and the world is about? It is frequently about good vr evil, right vr wrong, all those injustices you rant about.
        In war sh-t happens, on purpose and not on purpose. If we followed your philosophy and logic evil would always win cause something bad might be done in the battle by both sides.
        Said a thousand times ..Chose…chose the LEAST wrong side.
        Or just be a useless spectator.

        “Though defensive violence will always be a ‘sad necessity’ in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate.”
        – St. Augustine

      • eljay
        September 24, 2013, 6:58 pm

        >> Big difference between predator violence and defensive violence.

        That statement manages to be both sanctimonious and hypocritical. One moment, you state emphatically that war “is the breakdown of everything civilized”, and the next – after deriding both Donald and me about utopian sentiments and holier-than-thou tones – you get all moralistic and insist that there is good violence and bad violence.

        So much for the breakdown of everything civilized! And talk about your utopian sentiments!

        I realize that this post will only aggravate your inexplicable antipathy toward me, as well as your anger-management issues. I sincerely hope it doesn’t also cause you to spill any of your 5pm cocktail.

      • Taxi
        September 25, 2013, 3:06 am

        eljay,
        “you get all moralistic and insist that there is good violence and bad violence.”

        No, the ‘moral’ department is run by Donald and you’re the “happy” intern – you admitted it, remember?! I personally stay well away from utopian morality – not my niche wotsoever. But I am realistic enough to know that sometimes violence, unfortunately, is necessary. I’ve already said this several times, yet you obviously choose to ignore it.

        ” insist there is good violence and bad violence.”
        Do you live on this planet or on cloud cookoo planet? Again, violence in self-defense is unfortunate but sometimes NECESSARY – it’s the way of THIS WORLD, buddy. There is plenty of evidence of harm/evil in this world, and sorry to shock you here, but it must be destroyed – by the forces of good, usually.

        “I realize that this post will only aggravate your inexplicable antipathy toward me, as well as your anger-management issues. I sincerely hope it doesn’t also cause you to spill any of your 5pm cocktail.”

        A small ‘pishshsh’ is my usual reaction to your posts – that’s how pathetic I think you are. And don’t pretend to be surprised at being named out, little mister victim: you know very well that a few times now you’ve butted in from behind the curtain with backhanded remarks about me and clearly that’s because of your passive-aggressive regard towards me. Just because my turn-of-phrase is more dynamic than yours does not mean I have “anger management” issues. You want me to feel and write as blandly as you? LOL! Get over yourself and your pathetic standards – they’re not all that! And btw, I don’t do cocktail hours. I jog 5 miles a day, 5 times a week, I live clean and sober, by choice; done it since I was a teen – my first drink was at the age of 15, my second drink was at the age of 34 – now I only drink at weddings and funerals. Unlike you, I don’t try to solve the world’s problems while under the influence. Nothing wrong with drinking and thinking, but it ain’t my habit.

        I support resistance (to evil) in all its forms. And nothing you or anyone can say or do will ever change that. So stop whining about my style of writing and get with the message instead.

      • yrn
        September 25, 2013, 3:29 am

        eljay
        “Great. Then stop complaining when Israel – which justifies its actions by saying it is at war with an enemy that is trying to destroy it – kills Palestinians.”
        Your token almost fell down, in Mondowiess and especially Taxi, there are 2 realities.

        Taxi-Mondowiess theories are applicable everywhere in the world, but not for Israel.
        As the hate for Israel expends their thinking to another dimension.
        They try to build up the image that Israel is not in a state of War (funny as all Taxi Arguments are war oriented), but Israel is in a peaceful situation with it’s neighbors.
        It will take them time to understand that all this site at the end will turn against them, as you cannot be a hypocrite for a along time.

      • eljay
        September 25, 2013, 7:38 am

        >> Taxi @ September 25, 2013 at 3:06 am

        Your post amused me: Pure vitriol…but you don’t have anger-management issues.

        Nicely done! :-)

      • eljay
        September 25, 2013, 7:53 am

        And, for the record, I never once in the past attacked you, either directly or in a back-handed way.

        This past July, based on your misunderstanding of a comment I made, you decided to attack me. Despite my attempt to clarify your misinterpretation, you decided to stand by it and by your newly-developed hate-on for me.

        If you want to hate me, that’s fine. It’s your right. But don’t be so weak as to foist the blame for your anger and irrationality onto me. That’s just lame.

      • Taxi
        September 25, 2013, 3:23 pm

        eljay,

        I don’t “hate” you, but I do sometimes find you irritating – I’m sure this feeling is mutual.

        A “misunderstanding”? Okay, buddy, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on this. Often the source of friction is caused by misunderstandings. I’d be happy to call a truce from my end – and I have no problem in apologizing to you either. Sorry if I offended. I don’t want to be doing that over a “misunderstanding”. I used to like you a lot – I think I can get back to that place with ease. You will get nothing but respectfulness from me from here on. And I ask you please to not confuse and “misunderstand” my ability to articulate with fire in pen, for “hate”. I save that side of me for deserving zionists.

      • Taxi
        September 25, 2013, 3:41 pm

        yrn,

        What have you been smoking tonight? Your line of thought is particularly atrocious and incomprehensible.

        I’ve been exposed to the I/P conflict since the age of five – I was on vacation with my parents in Jerusalem when the 6 day war broke out. So like after 47 years of dealing with zionism and zionists on so many levels; I finally came to the conclusion some ten years ago that only force will work on that despicable Apartheid state of israel. Till israel changes its behavior voluntarily, I will maintain this position. And I regret that I wasted so many years, nay decades, thinking that it’s possible to make peace with israel.

  2. Denis
    September 22, 2013, 11:43 am

    It seems to me that all historical analogies fall flat when it comes to the I/P problem, and all the other problems in the world that result from Israel’s existential belligerence. The unique – and, possibly, defining – aspect of Israel’s apartheid is that it could not exist without active American support – financial, military, political. In fact, Israel itself could not exist without American support.

    If America were ever to withdraw its support and punish Israel for its human rights abuses and nuclear roguery the way it punishes Iran and NoKo, Israel would collapse through internal discord and/or be over-run by Arabs in a matter of minutes. If America demanded from Israel what it pompously demands from Iran, there would be no I/P problem. The anatomical reality is that America is the dog; Israel is the tail. Thus it is and ever will be. The anomaly is in the shaking, and that can be reversed. It must be reversed.

    Consequently, the solution to the I/P problem lies entirely within the powers of the sleeping 98% of Americans who are no more connected to Israel than they are to, say, Kiribati. Wake this 98% up and Israel will have no choice but to cease its human rights abuses or disappear – let the Israelis figure out how best to resolve that conundrum. Maybe most of them will agree with Helen Thomas.

    Perhaps those of us who have already opened our eyes to what is going on in Israel should be less focused on what solutions are viable or not viable and more focused on educating other Americans about their own blind complicity in this rolling cluster f*ck. Educating Americans on what an Israel-firster is and how their own government is dominated by them. Educating Americans on what the neocon agenda for the ME is and how it is related to the “Arab Spring” by virtue of the CIA and other clandestine American activities. Educating Americans on how money is flowing from their pockets into the pockets of those IDF ghouls shooting Palestinians trying to draw water from their wells.

    Israeli apartheid is an American problem.

    • American
      September 22, 2013, 12:29 pm

      @Denis

      Ditto

      But here’s what you have to show the average person to rouse them against Israel, the Lobby and their bought politicans. Not saying they dont care about justice and human rights —but if you want them to really make war on the Lobby and Israel and DC you gotta make it personal to them–and there is no more personal hatred than being used and ‘betrayed’ by your own enemy within.

      http://mjayrosenberg.com/2013/09/21/eric-cantor-who-led-successful-fight-to-cut-food-stamps-for-unemployed-seeks-hike-in-aid-to-israel/

      Eric Cantor, Who Led Successful Fight To Cut Food Stamps For Unemployed, Seeks Hike In Aid To Israel

      Eric Cantor is a pig, and he’s a pig with no loyalty to this country. Yesterday, the House passed his bill to cut the appropriation for food stamps by $40 million.”

      American congressman: US economic woes won’t affect Israel ..
      http://www.jpost.com/…/American-congressman-US-economic-woes-wont-affe…‎

      Aug 11, 2011 – US Congressman Steny Hoyer says financial challenges “will not … American congressman: US economic woes won’t affect Israel … to Israel in the form of aid for its qualitative [military] superiority, or for its economic security.”

      • ritzl
        September 22, 2013, 1:58 pm

        Thanks American. You’re right about self-interest, trust, and betrayal.

        And maybe an aside, but when you cut off millions of people from food whose jobs/pay have been lost to fund the biggest 1% income gain ever, isn’t that violence? It seems pretty much straight out of Marx, when you throw liberal use of pepper spray into the mix.

        And Cantor ties Israel to that economic-based violence. Aid to Israel happens to be the exact amount that the Rs are cutting out of the food stamp program, annually.

        Israel’s negative effect on our lives is getting increasingly more difficult to ignore by more and more US voters.

      • American
        September 22, 2013, 2:26 pm

        ritzl says:
        September 22, 2013 at 1:58 pm

        Thanks American. You’re right about self-interest, trust, and betrayal.

        And maybe an aside, but when you cut off millions of people from food whose jobs/pay have been lost to fund the biggest 1% income gain ever, isn’t that violence?
        >>>>>

        It is to me. Just like there is no difference in paying or ordering to have someone killed and pulling the trigger yourself.

    • fnlevit
      September 22, 2013, 12:54 pm

      http://www.gallup.com/poll/161387/americans-sympathies-israel-match-time-high.aspx

      Americans’ Sympathies for Israel Match All-Time High

      Republicans, conservatives, older Americans most likely to voice sympathy for Israel

      by Lydia Saad

      PRINCETON, NJ — As President Barack Obama prepares to visit Israel, the Palestinian West Bank, and Jordan next week — his first trip to the region as president — Americans’ sympathies lean heavily toward the Israelis over the Palestinians, 64% vs. 12%. Americans’ partiality for Israel has consistently exceeded 60% since 2010; however, today’s 64% ties the highest Gallup has recorded in a quarter century, last seen in 1991 during the Gulf War. At that time, slightly fewer than today, 7%, sympathized more with the Palestinians.

      • Hostage
        September 22, 2013, 6:13 pm

        Americans’ Sympathies for Israel Match All-Time High

        Yes but that support doesn’t translate into giving Israel $3 billion every year, while telling retirees in Detroit that we can’t afford to bailout their pension fund, even once, because it would cost $3 billion.

      • American
        September 22, 2013, 8:31 pm

        fnlevit..

        LOLO….you gonna be very disappointed when you find out that isn’t true.
        Ever heard of consider the source?
        Gallup polls for pretty much anyone who will pay their freight.
        And Gallup has fired by both CNN and USA Today if that gives you a clue.
        George Gallup is long dead the new CEO and the editor in chief are a real pair. The CEO wants to be in the broadcasting busness and the editor in chief, Newport, is a old testment evangel relgous nut who writes books about God.

        http://motorcitytimes.com/mct/2010/07/gallup-polling-caught-mixing-sampling-methods-to-skew-results/

        Gallup Polling Caught Mixing Sampling Methods To Skew Results

        http://www.politico.com/story/2013/07/gallup-doj-fine-94177.html

        Department of Justice slaps Gallup with $10.5M fine
        DOJ is resolving a complaint brought by a former Gallup director of client services. | Reuters
        By TAL KOPAN | 7/15/13 11:45 AM EDT Updated: 7/16/13 4:29 PM EDT
        Gallup Organization has agreed to pay the government $10.5 million to settle a false claims case against the company for allegedly inflating cost estimates in government contracts.
        The Justice Department announced the settlement Monday, resolving a complaint originally brought under the Whistleblower Protection Act by a former Gallup director of client services.
        (Also on POLITICO: Gallup unveils polling changes)
        According to the original complaint filed in 2009, Gallup allegedly inflated estimates of labor hours required for market research contracts with the U.S. Mint and U.S. Passport Agency to drive up costs.
        The complaint alleges that Gallup had a $2 million-per-year contract with the Mint to “to conduct market research to identify likely purchasers of newly issued coins and how best to reach them.”
        Gallup had a $2.7 million contract with the Passport Agency to conduct surveys to predict how a change in border laws would increase passport applications, according to the complaint.
        (Also on POLITICO: Gallup reviewing poll methodology)

        James Newport is the nutcase with an agenda in charge of Gallup:

        Q: Why do you propose that the government and companies promote religion as a means to reduce health-care costs?

        Newport: That certainly is controversial. We have separation of church and state in this country. But the correlation between religion and well-being has been established by Gallup……
        The question is causality: Maybe healthier people choose to be more religious. But it’s clear that religious [people] are less of a drain on our mental and physical health systems. So, a company may want to give discounts for employees who attend church four or five times a month, just as many give discounts for employees who go to the gym. If America were to become more religious, and this is ”

        Gallup has agendas.

      • yonah fredman
        September 23, 2013, 12:13 am

        American- I think it is insufficient to negate the Gallup poll results without offering some other poll results. You are not adding to the knowledge pool just with “Gallup has agendas.” How about adding information?

      • American
        September 23, 2013, 12:18 pm

        @ yonah

        Google around….you’ll find plenty…start with the huge squew on Obama and Romney in the presidential election….read Nate Slver’s take….read the time after time Gallup’s hokey explanations for 1) their sampling mistakes 2) how they were going to fix them- but didn’t.
        There are people at Gallup who want to have ‘political influence” instead of being just pollesters.
        Shouldnt come as a surprise to anyone that polling orgs like almost every other org in the country ‘that seeks to tell people what the majorty thinks’ – as a way to influence the public and politics — can have agendas and be bought.
        The only poll know of that cant be bought, that isn’t paid for by any agency or interest group is the World Public Opinion Poll financed by the Kennedy Center at the Univ of Maryland.
        You would be crazy to accept at face value anything on anything these days without knowing the full story on the people and $ behind it.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 23, 2013, 12:25 pm

        insufficient to negate the Gallup poll results without offering some other poll results

        no, you’re the one who dragged a debunked poll in here to make your point, therefore it’s your point that now stands naked w/no supporting evidence.

      • American
        September 23, 2013, 2:42 pm

        @ yonah

        I have said numerous times in the past that the Zio/Isr/hasbara fail in trotting out hokey polls and propaganda and etc. comes from narcissistic belief that they are smart and the rest of the world stupid. That narcissistic defect makes them simple minded and mentally incapable of ‘considering’ or even ‘trying to understand’ how others think–they simply dismiss others as literally having no ‘thinking processes’ or ability to think for themselves.
        You should consider this —that DESPITE 65+ years of propaganda by Israel, in the US media, in the press, in publishing, in Hollywood, in politics, in every sector of the US—Israel has FAILED to move the Amer public off it’s core and consistent BELIEF that the US should NOT favor either Israel or Palestine.
        And if you look at what % approves of Israel you will see that even there that approval fluctuates according to *what Israel is doing*.
        You should also consider what this consistent US attitude of ‘even handedness- no favortism’ will mean when Israel finally exceeds the US public’s ‘red line’—–in it’s lobby ‘activites” in the US as well as it’s actions in the ME.
        And since these polls were done opinons of, knowledge of, exposure of and disapproval of Israel and it’s US lobby has only grown and gotten worse.
        Let me bottom line this for you—-Anericans are not willing go to war to ‘save Israel’…or pay for a Israeli war or get militarily involved.
        No one sees that attitude changing, it is becoming even more predominate.
        http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brunitedstatescanadara/712.php?lb=brusc&pnt=712&nid=&id=
        American Public Opposes Israel Striking Iran
        March 13, 2012
        If Israel and Iran Have Military Conflict,
        Americans Say US Should Stay Out
        Full report(PDF)
        Questionnaire with Findings (PDF)
        A new poll finds that only one in four Americans favors Israel conducting a military strike against Iran’s nuclear program. Seven in ten (69%) favor the US and other major powers continuing to pursue negotiations with Iran, a position that is supported by majorities of Republicans (58%), Democrats (79%) and Independents (67%).
        Consistent with this emphasis on a diplomatic approach, three in four say that the US should primarily act through the UN Security Council rather than acting by itself in dealing with the problem of Iran’s nuclear program.
        If Israel goes ahead with a military strike against Iran’s nuclear program and Iran retaliates, but not against American targets, only 25% favor the US providing military forces if Israel requests them (though support is a bit higher among Republicans at 41%). Another 14% favors the US providing diplomatic support only.
        Few (6%) would support open opposition. The most popular position is for the US to take a neutral stance, which is supported by 49%, including 27% who would also favor active efforts to end the hostilities and 22% who think the US should simply not get involved.

        From 2006 – Lebanon
        http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brunitedstatescanadara/235.php?lb=brusc&pnt=235&nid=&id=
        When asked who was responsible for the current crisis, Americans tended to fault both sides. Nearly half of Americans (46%) said they blamed Israel and Hezbollah equally for the conflict, a New York Times/CBS poll taken July 21-25 found. Thirty-eight percent said they thought Hezbollah was �mostly to blame� while five percent said Israel was.
        August 2, 2006
        A strong majority of Americans believe Israel is justified in taking action against the Hezbollah militia. But recent polls also show that U.S. support for Israel�s offensive is not absolute. Most Americans blame both sides for the violence in Lebanon and a plurality favors the negotiation of a cease-fire as soon as possible. Like other publics abroad, a majority in the United States believes Israel�s military campaign has gone too far.
        http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brunitedstatescanadara/295.php?lb=brusc&pnt=295&nid=&id=

      • American
        September 23, 2013, 2:56 pm

        continued…..

        The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
        WPO December poll shows that Americans believe the United States should �not take either side� in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinian territories. (Republicans 58%, Democrats 80%)

        http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brunitedstatescanadara/604.php?lb=btis&pnt=604&nid=&id=
        Growing Majority of Americans Oppose Israel Building Settlements
        April 29, 2009
        Questionnaire/Methodology (PDF)
        Dataset for Download (SPSS format)
        A new WorldPublicOpinion.org poll finds that three-quarters of Americans think that Israel should not build settlements in the Palestinian territories. This is up 23 points from when this question was last asked in 2002.
        Israeli settlement of Ma’ale Adumim located in the West Bank (Photo: Decode Jerusalem)
        One third of Americans show more sympathy for Israel than the Palestinians, substantially more than the 12 percent who express more sympathy for the Palestinians.
        However the largest number–51 percent–expresses equal levels of sympathy for each side. The percentage expressing equal levels of sympathy is up 10 points from 2002.
        Even those respondents who sympathize more with Israel feel that it should not be building settlements in the West Bank by a clear majority (64%), as do those who sympathize equally with Israel and the Palestinians (80%), and those who sympathize more with the Palestinians (96%).
        “Americans are showing increasing impatience with Israel for building settlements,” comments Steven Kull, director of WorldPublicOpinion.org. “Even the third of Americans who sympathize with Israel more than the Palestinians oppose the settlements.”

        http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/503.php?lb=btis&pnt=503&nid=&id=
        International Poll: Most Publics–including Americans–Oppose Taking Sides in Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
        July 1, 2008
        Israeli, Palestinian, American and Arab Leaders All Get Low Marks On Efforts to Resolve Conflict
        Most Favor UN Playing Robust Role in Peace Enforcement
        Country-by-Country Summaries (PDF)

        Questionnaire/methodology (PDF)
        Press Release (PDF)
        Full PDF Version
        Dataset for Download (SPSS format)
        A new WorldPublicOpinion.org poll of 18 countries finds that in 14 of them people mostly say their government should not take sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Just three countries favor taking the Palestinian side (Egypt, Iran, and Turkey) and one is divided (India). No country favors taking Israel’s side, including the United States, where 71 percent favor taking neither side.
        A UN convoy approaches an Israeli checkpoint outside of Gaza City in June 2003 (UNRWA photo)
        Asked to evaluate how well a number of key actors are doing their part to resolve the conflict, none of them get good grades, including Israel, the Palestinians, the United States, and the Arab countries. On average across all the countries polled, none of the actors receives good grades from more than 3 in 10. Interestingly, Americans are divided as to whether the United States is doing its part.

      • fnlevit
        September 23, 2013, 5:03 pm

        Here is another poll (ABC + WP) with similar results.
        55% support Israel and only 9% support Palestinians. Also majority of the American public wants US to stay away from the direct involvement in the I/P conflict which is just fine with Israel. See the link below.
        I must say that I detect a new way of repudiating my links – to claim that they are untrustful. Like Wikipedia, Gallop. But when various bizzare links are quoted by others (like electronic intifada or some private reports) – they are of sacred value, very “objective”.

        http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/public-wants-us-out-of-middle-east-dispute/2013/03/17/e654ba34-8f58-11e2-bdea-e32ad90da239_graphic.html

    • MahaneYehude1
      September 22, 2013, 12:54 pm

      @Denis: Thank you very much for your comprehensive comment. I agree with you and also think that the Americans should wake up and realize what is happening in Apartheid Israel day after day. As an Israeli citizen I see this Apartheid activities by Israel and can’t do nothing. Only one thing I don’t really understand: why so many people coming to this Apartheid state and want to be integral part of an Apartheid society. In the last decades, before the Apartheid Israel built the racist fence on Israeli-Egyptian border, tens of thousands African came to live under the apartheid. They came mainly from Eritrea and South Sudan, crossed three countries, Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt and then they had to cross the Sinai desert until they reached the Apartheid. This long journey lasted several months and many of them died in their way. In Israel, many of them experience the cruel Apartheid day after day but, surprisingly, not many of them want to leave the apartheid. In contrary, they fight and do a lot of efforts, with help from Israeli NGO, to receive Israeli citizenship. I wonder why this group love the apartheid, maybe they know things that you don’t know? maybe?

      • Donald
        September 22, 2013, 2:22 pm

        When people describe Israel as an apartheid state, they are referring to its treatment of the people native to the land, the Palestinians, who were mostly expelled from their villages in 48 and many of whom now live under occupation where there are two sets of laws, one for them and one for the privileged Jewish settlers. Everyone knows this and you know it. Objecting to the term “apartheid” because some people come to Israel fleeing oppression from someplace else is like saying that America was a bastion of freedom for everyone in the 1800’s because some people fled here to escape oppression elsewhere. Or it’s like saying that apartheid South Africa couldn’t have been an apartheid state because white Jews had citizenship.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 22, 2013, 3:05 pm

        @Donald: I am sorry, I don’t know it. Since a massive propaganda campaigns against the state of Israel from many directions, many can’t distinguish between the state of Israel itself and the special situation in the OT. In many articles, comments, web sites etc. you receive the impression that Israel itself is an Apartheid state with many Apartheid laws discriminate between different ethnic groups. Well, this is not the situation. Israel is a democratic state with open society and very tolerant to minorities. The African immigrants was only one example, but I can choose other examples which show you that the term Apartheid doesn’t describe Israel at all.

        About the OT: I sure you know the short history of Israel and the reason Israel occupied these territories. Israel never declared that the OT are part of it and peace negotiation on the future of the OT are taking place now. When you wrote two separate law systems it doesn’t mean the laws are apartheid laws. The laws are not against the Palestinians theme self as a people because they are Palestinians. In other comments I explained that no one of the laws is a racist laws that serve apartheid system in contrary to SA that had laws against the black only because they are black people. Tx.

      • amigo
        September 22, 2013, 4:42 pm

        “About the OT: I sure you know the short history of Israel and the reason Israel occupied these territories. Israel never declared that the OT are part of it and peace negotiation on the future of the OT are taking place now.”M1 Potato engineer,

        Really ?????.
        Source/link, article.Anything that confirms that the contents of your brain is other than lies.

        See how the following conflicts with your hasabara.

        “As it will be demonstrated below, the decision by the Zionist leadership to accept the 1947 proposed UN GA Partition plan was nothing but a smoke screen, which was done solely to gain international recognition and support. This deception was a political ploy to gain initial international legitimacy for the existence of the “Jewish state”, and this was well known to the Palestinian people. The reader is urged to contemplate the following Zionist leaders’ quotes in an open mind. Note that most, if not all, of the quotes below are dated before the entry of any single Arab Army into British Mandated Palestine: * In a letter Chaim Weizmann sent to the Palestine-British high Commissioner, while the Peel Commission was convening in 1937, he stated: “We shall spread in the whole country in the course of time ….. this is only an arrangement for the next 25 to 30 years.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 66) * Ben-Gurion emphasized that the acceptance of the Peel Commission would not imply static borders for the future “Jewish state”. In a letter Ben-Gurion sent to his son in 1937, he wrote: “No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land Of Israel. [A] Jewish state in part [of Palestine] is not an end, but a beginning ….. Our possession is important not only for itself … through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a [small] state …. will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country.” (Righteous Victims, p. 138) * In 1938, Ben-Gurion made it clear of his support for the “Jewish state” on part of Palestine was only as a stepping ground for a complete conquest. He wrote: “[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state–we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 107 & One Palestine Complete, p. 403) * One day after the UN vote to partition Palestine, Menachem Begin, the commander of the Irgun gang and Israel’s future Prime Minister between 1977-1983, proclaimed: “The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized …. Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.” (Iron Wall p. 25) * “”Shamir has said Israel must keep the territories in order to accommodate the immigrants. “A great aliyah [immigration],” he said, “requires a Greater Israel.”(5) He has insisted that, although Soviet Jews are not being directed to the territories, any Jew has the right to live anywhere in the land of Israel, which for most Israelis includes the territories.

      • Cliff
        September 22, 2013, 5:15 pm

        Israel is an apartheid settler State.

        Israel is not simply occupying Palestinian land, it is stealing and colonizing it.

        You are either blind or ignorant – or both.

      • Hostage
        September 22, 2013, 6:26 pm

        Since a massive propaganda campaigns against the state of Israel from many directions, many can’t distinguish between the state of Israel itself and the special situation in the OT.

        Well that’s because you are comparing foreign refugees, people who by definition have a well founded fear of persecution in their own countries, with the indigenous Palestinians. Let’s remember that Israel has created millions of Palestinian displaced people that the rest of the world recognize and care for as refugees.

        BTW, your own Supreme Court recently ruled that the government of Israel has confined (physically segregated) the refugees in an illegal, unconstitutional manner. It’s hardly surprising that the government does the same thing on a much larger scale under the guise of policies and programs like the Prawer Plan.

      • lyn117
        September 22, 2013, 7:22 pm

        Israel declared parts of the OT as its own territories: a greatly expanded East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

        And yes, if there are two separate law systems, the laws are apartheid. And in fact, the laws are against Palestinians because they aren’t Jews, so they are against them as a people. How is it tolerant to “minorities” to force them to obey different “laws,” in many cases arbitrarily imposed by the Israeli military? Law in which the Palestinians subject to them have no voice in the government that decrees them, no representation, and one of whose aims is to get rid of them?

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 22, 2013, 10:44 pm

        @lyn117 and Hostage: I discussed this issue many times in several of my comments in a comprehensive way. Israel is not an apartheid state by definition. There is no even one law against an ethnic group because they are different from other ethnic group. Look, many laws in SA were against the black because they are black people such as segregation in buses and schools, prohibition to have sex between whites and blacks, Prohibition to work in certain jobs etc. You won’t find even one law in Israel against race or group. The laws you are talking about, aimed to protect the state of Israel from terror and hostile activities. Indeed, I agree, many innocent people suffer from those laws but the same occurs among the Jewish community in Israel. In state of war and conflict, all people from both sides are victims of this abnormal situation.

        Defining Israel as an apartheid state is no more than part of propaganda campaign aimed to dehumanize and demonize the state of Israel and my people. I sure that honest people know this fact. This campaign will be end like former campaigns against Israel.

      • Shingo
        September 22, 2013, 11:59 pm

        many can’t distinguish between the state of Israel itself and the special situation in the OT.

        The fact is that the same government is in charge in both areas, so apartheid remains it’s policy in the OT (which it regards as Jewish anyway) and to a lesser extent within Israel proper. So yes, Israel is an apartheid state and polls show that the majority of Israelis agree it is.

        You simply are in denial.

        Israel is not a democratic state, but an apartheid state which discriminates against non Jews. Africans are treated appallingly and subjected to pogroms. Bibbi has described them as a threat to the state of Israel and leaders describe them as a cancer.

        : I sure you know the short history of Israel and the reason Israel occupied these territories

        Yes, to steal land beyond the borders of the partition they were assigned in 1947 because they were not satisfied with what they had been given.

        When you wrote two separate law systems it doesn’t mean the laws are apartheid laws.

        Of course it does. Two separate sets fo laws means one set f rules for Jews and another for Arabs. That is definitely apartheid. They are indeed against the Palestinians because they are not Jewish.

        I explained that no one of the laws is a racist laws that serve apartheid system in contrary to SA that had laws against the black only because they are black people.

        And you were proven wrong. There are more than 30 blatantly racist laws against non Jews and they are racist against non Jews for not being Jewish.

      • Shingo
        September 23, 2013, 2:09 am

        I discussed this issue many times in several of my comments in a comprehensive way. Israel is not an apartheid state by definition.

        Wrong. The definition of apartheid (under the Statute fo Rome), which you have demonstrate ignorance of, has been provided to you and it does include Israel.

        There is no even one law against an ethnic group because they are different from other ethnic group.

        Wrong. There are at least 30 laws which discriminate against non Jews, This has been repeatedly explained to you.

        You won’t find even one law in Israel against race or group.

        You’ll find more than 30. None are aimed to protect the state of Israel from terror and hostile activities, though that is the justification given for the apartheid laws.

        Israel is an apartheid state by definition. It might hurt your feelings to hear it, but apartheid states dehumanize and demonize minorities in their society so rather than complain, you are better off putting a stop to it.

      • amigo
        September 23, 2013, 6:17 am

        Mahane ??1,2 or 3.

        ” Look, many laws in SA were against the black because they are black people such as segregation in buses and schools, prohibition to have sex between whites and blacks, ”

        Perfect analogy .

        “• A Palestinian man was convicted of rape and sentenced to 1.5 years in prison for having consensual sex with a Jewish woman, because he did not disabuse her of her assumption that he was Jewish.”

        Mehane , we are tired reading the contents of “your” brain.They are pure hasbara central troll-ope.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 23, 2013, 9:18 am

        “There is no even one law against an ethnic group because they are different from other ethnic group.”

        False, person-posting-as-“MahaneYehude1.” A Jew in the West Bank is dealt with under israeli civilian law, a Palestinian in the West Bank is dealt with under military law. That’s Apartheid.

        “You won’t find even one law in Israel against race or group. The laws you are talking about, aimed to protect the state of Israel from terror and hostile activities.”

        LOL. Yeah, the South Africans used that “Apartheid laws as security measure” nonsense, too, person-posting-as-“MahaneYehude1”!

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 23, 2013, 10:25 am

        @amigo: No, you are not tired because you are not reading my comments, at least not those comments about the bastard who was convicted for 1.5 years which I wrote to you personally. Please, see last paragraph:
        http://mondoweiss.net/2013/09/latest-generous-offer-leaked-israel-wants-to-control-jordan-river-and-40-of-west-bank-while-palestinians-get-temporary-borders.html#comment-591356

      • Hostage
        September 23, 2013, 2:39 pm

        @lyn117 and Hostage: I discussed this issue many times in several of my comments in a comprehensive way.

        Correction: No, neither your government nor your comments here have provided any answers to the aggravated forms of racial discrimination contained in the reports from treaty monitoring bodies and the ICJ advisory opinion. The consensus of opinion among the legal experts in the treaty monitoring body charged with the responsibility for measuring Israel’s compliance with the prohibition of apartheid agree that there are a variety of perennial state practices and policies that violate Israel’s obligations under Article 3 of the ICERD. In fact, one of the key findings is that racial discrimination is neither defined nor prohibited under Israel’s Basic Laws, which serve as the Bill of Rights – and that a plethora of laws exist which discriminate against non-Jews. — See the most recent report. http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/cerd/docs/CERD.C.ISR.CO.14-16.pdf

        Here are a few extracts:

        11. The Committee notes with increased concern that Israeli society maintains Jewish and non-Jewish sectors, which raises issues under article 3 of the Convention. Clarifications provided by the delegation confirmed the Committee’s concerns in relation to the existence of two systems of education, one in Hebrew and one in Arabic, which except in rare circumstances remain impermeable and inaccessible to the other community, as well as separate municipalities: Jewish municipalities and the so-called “municipalities of the minorities”. The enactment of the Admissions Committees Law (2011), which gives private committees full discretion to reject applicants deemed “unsuitable to the social life of the community”, is a clear sign that the concerns as regards segregation remain pressing (Articles 3, 5 and 7 of the Convention).

        Recalling its previous concluding observations (CERD/C/ISR/CO/13, para. 22), the Committee urges the State party to give full effect to article 3 and to make every effort to eradicate all forms of segregation between Jewish and non-Jewish communities. The State party is requested to provide information on action taken in this regard in its next periodic report.

        13. As mentioned in its previous concluding observations (CERD/C/ISR/CO/13, para. 16), the Committee is concerned that no general provision for equality and the prohibition of racial discrimination has been included in the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty (1992), which serves as Israel’s bill of rights; neither does Israeli legislation contain a definition of racial discrimination in accordance with Article 1 of the Convention. These lacunae seriously undermine the protection afforded to all persons under the jurisdiction of the State party for equal access to human rights (Article 2 of the Convention).

        The Committee reiterates its previous concluding observations (CERD/C/ISR/CO/13, para. 16) and recommends that the State party ensure that the prohibition of racial discrimination and the principle of equality are included in the Basic Law and that a definition of racial discrimination is duly incorporated into the Law.

        15. The Committee notes with concern the enactment of a number of discriminatory laws on land issues which disproportionately affect non-Jewish communities. The Committee is particularly concerned at the enactment of the Israel Land Administration Law of 2009; the 2010 Amendment to the Land (Acquisition for Public Purposes) Ordinance (1943); the 2010 Amendment to the Negev Development Authority Law (1991), and the Admissions Committees Law (2011) (Articles 3 and 5 of the Convention).

        In line with its previous concluding observations (CERD/C/ISR/CO/13, para. 19), the Committee strongly recommends that the State party ensure equal access to land and property and to that end abrogate or rescind any legislation that does not comply with the principle of non-discrimination.

        25. The Committee is increasingly concerned at the State party’s discriminatory planning policy, whereby construction permits are rarely if ever granted to Palestinian and Bedouin communities and demolitions principally target property owned by Palestinians and Bedouins. The Committee is concerned at the adverse tendency of preferential treatment for the expansion of Israeli settlements, through the use of “state land” allocated for settlements, the provision of infrastructure such as roads and water systems, high approval rates for planning permits and the establishment of Special Planning Committees consisting of settlers for consultative decision-making processes. The Committee is greatly concerned at the State party’s policy of “demographic balance”, which has been a stated aim of official municipal planning documents, particularly in the city of Jerusalem (Articles 2, 3 and 5 of the Convention).

        In light of its previous concluding observations (CERD/C/ISR/CO/13, para. 35) and considering that the current Israeli planning and zoning policy in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, seriously breaches a range of fundamental rights under the Convention, the Committee urges the State party to reconsider the entire policy in order to guarantee Palestinian and Bedouin rights to property, access to land, access to housing and access to natural resources (especially water resources). The Committee also recommends that any planning and zoning policy be implemented in consultation with the populations directly affected by those measures. It calls on the State party to eliminate any policy of “demographic balance” from its Jerusalem Master Plan as well as from its planning and zoning policy in the rest of the West Bank.

        I’ve also posted lists of some of the many laws and military orders that discriminate against non-Jews on the basis their nationality in violation of Article 1 and 3 of the ICERD. Here it is again: “Equality” is not entrenched as a fundamental human right in any Basic Law. Discrimination is permitted without limitation against persons on the basis of “Nationality” (in lieu of race, citizenship, or religion). See Articles 8 & 10 of the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty (1992) as amended (1994) for complete details.

        The discriminatory statutes include, but are not limited to the following: Law of Return (1950); Nationality Law (1952); Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law (2003) Temporary Order 5763 (2003) extended to present; Absentee Property Law (1950); Status Law of Israel (1952); Basic Law: Israel Lands (1960); Land Acquisition Law (1953) as amended (2010); Planning and Construction Law (1965); Law on Agricultural Settlement (1967); Israel Lands Authority Law (2009).

        In the Occupied Territories military orders have been used to establish an administrative regime. In the 2004 Wall case the International Court of Justice determined that the regime was illegal. Some of the relevant orders are:
        *Orders Nº 29 (1967) and Nº 378 (1970) establish procedures to detain and prosecute Palestinians;
        *Military Orders Nº 561 (1974), Nº 783 (1979), Nº 892 (1980), and Nº 981 (1982) establish an entirely separate legal system for Israeli settlers;
        *Military Orders Nº 107 (1967), Nº 50 (1967), Nº 101 (1967), and Amendment Orders Nº 1079 and 1423 impose a system of military censorship, and set severe limits on freedom of speech and public assemblies by Palestinians;
        *Military Orders Nº 58 (1967), Order Nº 59 (1967), Nº 291 (1968), Nº 1060 (1983) grant Israeli Military Authorities custody, control, and dispute resolution authority concerning state and private property, land, and water; and the right to confiscate private property without compensation.
        *Special Military Order Nº 224 (1967) restores the mandate era “Emergency Regulations” (1945); Military Order Nº 92 (1967) concerns provision and control of water; Military Order Nº 5 concerns closure of the West Bank; Military Order Nº 537 (1974) concerning powers of the Area Commander to set municipal boundaries; direct municipal services and planning; and the power to dismiss democratically-elected officials; Military Order Nº 297 establishes a pass system that restricts freedom of movement.

      • Sycamores
        September 23, 2013, 10:06 pm

        “A Jew in the West Bank is dealt with under israeli civilian law, a Palestinian in the West Bank is dealt with under military law. That’s Apartheid.”

        are illegal Jewish settlers in the West Bank under israeli civil law? i thought technically they can’t be because they are not in israel proper.

      • Hostage
        September 24, 2013, 12:36 am

        are illegal Jewish settlers in the West Bank under israeli civil law?

        Yes. Israel had always applied its laws to its own citizens living in the West Bank and Gaza. It retained sole criminal jurisdiction and personal jurisdiction over all Israeli citizens under the terms of the Oslo Accord agreements. The “Council” refers to the PA:

        CHAPTER 3 – LEGAL AFFAIRS

        ARTICLE XVII
        Jurisdiction

        2. Accordingly, the authority of the Council encompasses all matters that fall within its territorial, functional and personal jurisdiction, as follows:

        b. The functional jurisdiction of the Council extends to all powers and responsibilities transferred to the Council, as specified in this Agreement or in any future agreements that may be reached between the Parties during the interim period.

        c. The territorial and functional jurisdiction of the Council will apply to all persons, except for Israelis, unless otherwise provided in this Agreement.


        4. a. Israel, through its military government, has the authority over areas that are not under the territorial jurisdiction of the Council, powers and responsibilities not transferred to the Council and Israelis.

        b. To this end, the Israeli military government shall retain the necessary legislative, judicial and executive powers and responsibilities, in accordance with international law. This provision shall not derogate from Israel’s applicable legislation over Israelis in personam.

        — Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, Washington, D.C., September 28, 1995 http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/the%20israeli-palestinian%20interim%20agreement.aspx#art17

      • Ecru
        September 24, 2013, 6:35 am

        @MY1

        I admit to being disappointed. You’re either just another fundamentally dishonest Zionist or just too cowardly to face the truth for what Israel is and trying to hide your failing behind a gloss of hand-wringing “liberalism.” (That would be called far-right wing bigotry anywhere outside Israel).

        Apartheid is a term describing
        1) The specific situation in South Africa at one time.
        2) The CLASS of situations that resemble IN EFFECT the situations in South Africa at one time. According to the Rome Statute :

        “The ‘crime of apartheid’ means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.”

        Note the use of the word similar. Not identical. Not “exactly the same down to the last itsy bitsy detail” but SIMILAR. That’s enough. And Israel meets that definition and then some.

        As for that “special situation in the OT” yes the special situation is, illegal occupation, ethnic cleansing, murder of the local population and colonialism. Nice “special situation” you’ve got going there. Anywhere else it’s be called an ongoing crime against humanity. I’m sure the Czars also called the situation in the Pale “special” too and requiring “special” measures. You know, pogroms and things.

        (And don’t try weedling out of things by trying “oh but that’s race” because race is a social construct not a biological fact. And might I remind you Jews have for a long time been described by themselves and others as a “race.”)

        Amazing how Zionists can habitually use the broadest possible definition of anti-semitism irrespective of what the term actually means, and yet suddenly become pedants of the first order when confronted with the accusation of the very TRUE situation that is Israeli apartheid.

      • Sycamores
        September 26, 2013, 12:59 pm

        thanks Hostage,

        though theoretically they should be subjected to martial law.

      • Shingo
        September 22, 2013, 11:52 pm

        Only one thing I don’t really understand: why so many people coming to this Apartheid state and want to be integral part of an Apartheid society.

        It’s not hard to understand, it’s that you are lying. Jews are leaving Israel at a greater rate than they are arriving. In fact, the Jewish population of Germany is almost back to the same figure it was before the Holocaust and Russian Jews are returning to Russia in droves.

        Many more would be flooding to the US if immigration wasn’t such an issue.

        In the last decades, before the Apartheid Israel built the racist fence on Israeli-Egyptian border, tens of thousands African came to live under the apartheid.

        They will risk living in apartheid if it means avoiding violence and from war torn regions.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 23, 2013, 4:41 am

        @Shingo: I know in advance, as I wrote before, that no matter what I write in my reply to you, it won’t help me since you are one of those that already have fixed ideas about the I/P conflict. I am writing this comment mainly to the honest (passive) readers that want to hear other voices from the ME.

        Let’s start with the main issue which is two law systems: In 1967 Israel occupied the WB and Gaza, where many Palestinian live, after severe threats from Arab armies. Israel didn’t annex the OT and didn’t declare them part of Israel. Since the OT are different entity, Israel must obey the international law, and declare a special law system on the OT residents which are not Israeli citizens. The same way the American laws were not applied on Afghanistan residents during the US occupation. You take this fact (two law systems), a consequence of international law, as proof that Israel is an apartheid state. Well, Shingo, as I said, indeed there are two law systems, but none one of them contains even not one apartheid law. I know the list of the 30 laws that was quoted in this site many times. No one of them is an apartheid law, meaning law that imposed on man since his race. There are no laws against interracial sex, segregation or prevention of several kinds of jobs. By definition, Israel is no apartheid state and the law systems are not apartheid system as well. I quote a paragraph that I wrote in one of my comments: Let’s take one law from the list seems most ridiculous to you: License to plant fruit trees. This law is applied to all and aimed to prevent land stilling. I will say something that you won’t love: It aimed to protect Palestinian landlords too.

        You wrote that the African immigrants are subjected to pogroms in Israel. Well, again, one of your efforts to dehumanize and demonize us. I sure the readers know better than you the meaning of pogrom, especially for us. Indeed, there is no reason to deny the fact Israel has problems with immigrantion from Africa (mainly financial problems). I also know that there is interracial tension between the Africans and the residents of south Tel-Aviv, a weak group of Israel society. I don’t see any different between Israel and other European countries which also experience interracial tension. No one say that the Africans in European countries are subjected to pogroms, only those Africans live in Israel, and I wrote the reason above. I personally criticize my government because it doesn’t deal with the problem and doesn’t provide any fair solution. But pogroms? Pogroms, Shingo? are you sure?

        There are so many other things in your comments, like the “facts” that Israelis are leaving Israel and several “polls” you quote, that I think your explanations are no more than misreading and misunderstanding of Israel and the Israeli society.

        To your claim: “It might hurt your feelings to hear it, but apartheid states dehumanize and demonize minorities in their society so rather than complain, you are better off putting a stop to it” I can only say this: Nothing that you wrote and are writing (and probably will) really hurt my fillings, since I know better than you that your claims are no more than distortion of the truth, ignore of the reality of this complicated conflict and contain endless analogies which have nothing between them and the reality. In contrary, your and others comments make me more Zionist. Better, I will direct my efforts toward real solution: two states, one Jewish state and independent Palestinian state, friendship and reconciliation between both people here and end to this long conflict.

      • Shmuel
        September 23, 2013, 5:29 am

        Since the OT are different entity, Israel must obey the international law, and declare a special law system on the OT residents which are not Israeli citizens.

        That didn’t stop Israel from acting differently in East Jerusalem or the Golan Heights, so the principle of international law is obviously not the issue here.

        The same way the American laws were not applied on Afghanistan residents during the US occupation.

        1. The US has not been occupying Afghanistan for 46 years;
        2. The US does not refer to Afghanistan as “disputed territory”;
        3. The US does not refer to Afghanistan as the “cradle” of its religion/culture, nor does it lay claim of any kind to any part of it;
        4. The US has not incorporated Afghanistan into its own economy and infrastructure;
        5. The US has not permanently transferred a significant percentage of its own civilian population to Afghanistan, where they and only they are subject to US civilian law, while Afghanis are subject to US military law.

        The fact of occupation (and non-annexation) in and of itself does not preclude the existence of an apartheid system (as defined by international law). Cf. Namibia under South African rule.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 23, 2013, 6:01 am

        @Shmuel: All the points you wrote have nothing to apartheid. Indeed, I agree with you on them, 46 years occupation, disputed, cradle of religion (without quotation marks), economy and infrastructure, settlers – OK, I agree. All the facts are correct, there is no doubt that this, at least for both of us, is an occupation and abnormal situation that must end with independent sovereign Palestinian states. I also agree with you that “the fact of occupation (and non-annexation) in and of itself does not preclude the existence of an apartheid system” – but my main claim is, although the above facts, that Israel has no apartheid laws in Israel itself or in the OT. I already wrote and admitted that there are two laws system – good or bad, right or wrong – they don’t contain apartheid laws as I mentioned in my above comments examples (interracial sex, segregation, and any law imposed on man because his race or nationality).

      • Shmuel
        September 23, 2013, 6:34 am

        but my main claim is, although the above facts, that Israel has no apartheid laws in Israel itself or in the OT. I already wrote and admitted that there are two laws system – good or bad, right or wrong – they don’t contain apartheid laws as I mentioned in my above comments examples (interracial sex, segregation, and any law imposed on man because his race or nationality).

        You are entitled to your historical understanding of the essence of apartheid, but that is not how the crime of apartheid is defined according to international law.

        If you are indeed as committed to peace and reconciliation as you say you are, I would expect you to be far more outraged and offended by the reality of the system of oppression and discrimination in force in the OT than by whatever legal jargon someone might use to describe it. That system of discrimination must stop now, without waiting until the nations beat their swords into plowshares and the wolf lies down with the lamb.

        I missed your comments on the most recent outrage in Khirbet Makhoul. If you are so concerned with Israel’s “good name” (as most of your comments seem to indicate), write and act against the ethnic cleansing of the Jordan Valley. You are in Jerusalem and on holiday this week. Here are some people you can contact for information on how to express your protest and solidarity: http://www.alternativenews.org/english/index.php/politics/activism/7058-act-solidarity-with-khirbet-makhoul

      • Shingo
        September 23, 2013, 6:40 am

        I am writing this comment mainly to the honest (passive) readers that want to hear other voices from the ME.

        They woudl have already figures out you are racist, dishonest liar, so you are wasting your time either way.

        In 1967 Israel occupied the WB and Gaza, where many Palestinian live, after severe threats from Arab armies.

        Rubbish. As Menachem Begin admitted, there was no threat and Israel acted to steal land.

        Israel didn’t annex the OT and didn’t declare them part of Israel. Since the OT are different entity, Israel must obey the international law, and declare a special law system on the OT residents which are not Israeli citizens.

        They are all the same entity. As UNSC242 states, Israel was required to withdraw from those territories more than 40 years ago, so it stands in violation of international law.

        You take this fact (two law systems), a consequence of international law, as proof that Israel is an apartheid state. Well, Shingo, as I said, indeed there are two law systems, but none one of them contains even not one apartheid law.
        Of course they do.
        1. The very fact that there are 2 legal systems means it’s apartheid
        2. Under the Statute of Rome, this defines Israel as an apartheid state.
        3. The very fact that there are 2 legal systems means the system is based on segregation, which is apartheid.

        No one of them is an apartheid law, meaning law that imposed on man since his race. There are no laws against interracial sex, segregation or prevention of several kinds of jobs.

        Of course there are. The laws discriminate against anyone who is not Jewish. Apartheid defines any political system that discriminates based on race, religion or ethnicity.
        By the definition from the Rome Statute, Israel is certainly an apartheid state and the law systems are indeed an apartheid system. The license to plant fruit trees is far from the most blatant examples, but there are no laws that protect Palestinian landlords too. In fact, Israel’s notorious absentee landlords laws are a clear case of apartheid and land theft.

        I sure the readers know better than you the meaning of pogrom, especially for us.
        Of course, they only need Google Israel pogroms:
        What Israel’s anti-African pogroms tell us about Zionism
        http://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/israel-pogroms-zionism/
        Even the pro Israeli New York Times describes Israel’s actions as a pogrom.
        So there is no slur.

        I also know that there is interracial tension between the Africans and the residents of south Tel-Aviv, a weak group of Israel society.

        Stop lying. The problem goes all the way to the prime minister’s office, who described the African refugees as a cancer, exposing that racism and segregation lie at the very heart of Israel.
        http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/27/world/la-fg-israel-africa-refugees-20120527

        No one say that the Africans in European countries are subjected to pogroms

        That’s because they don’t conduct pogroms, unlike Israel.

        There are so many other things in your comments, like the “facts” that Israelis are leaving Israel and several “polls” you quote, that I think your explanations are no more than misreading and misunderstanding of Israel and the Israeli society.

        That fact is easily verified. Polls show that Israelis are indeed deserting the state and leaving in greater numbers than they are arriving. Alyah is dead.
        The Israel Central Bureau of Statistics states that as of 2005, 650,000 Israelis have left the country for over one year and not returned. The great majority of these were Jews. In addition, polls show that at least 60 percent and as high as 80 percent of remaining Israeli Jews “sympathize with those who leave the country.
        Among those who stay, there is the conviction that the safe thing is to have a second passport issued by the United States or a European country.
        At present, the United States has issued over half a million passports to Israelis and a quarter million additional applications are pending. Germany runs second with 100,000 passports given to Israeli Jews and 7,000 new ones issued yearly. ”

        http://consortiumnews.com/2011/06/15/israels-jewish-exodus/
        Israel is not only an apartheid state, Desmond Tutu tells us that it is worse than apartheid, and if anyone should know what apartheid looks like, it is Tutu.
        Here are a few more examples of Israeli apartheid:
        • Section 5 in the Law of Political Parties and section 7A of the Basic Law: Stipulates that any party platform that calls for full and complete equality between Jews and non-Jews, can be disqualified from any political post. The law demands that Palestinian Arab citizens may not challenge the state’s Zionist identity.

        • Law of Return: “Every Jew has the right to become a citizen no matter where they come from” while the indigenous non-Jewish inhabitants who were expelled in 1948 are expressly barred from returning to their homes

        • Nakba Law: Penalizes any institution that commemorates or publicly mourns the expulsion of the native Palestinian population

        • Anti-boycott law: Provides anyone calling for the boycott of Israel, or its illegal settlements, can be sued by the boycott’s targets without having to prove that they sustained damage. The court will then decide how much compensation is to be paid.

        • Admission Committees Law formally allows neighborhood screening committees to prevent non-Jewish citizens from living in Jewish communities that control 81 percent of the territory in Israel. In March 2011 Israel passed a law to allow residents of Jewish towns to refuse non Jews from living in their communities.

        • Amendment to the Citizenship Law: Stipulates that an Israeli citizen who marries a Palestinian cannot live as a couple in Israel with his or her spouse. A Palestinian spouse can neither gain citizenship nor residency.

        • 93% of the land, the vast majority of which was confiscated from Palestinian owners after 1948, can only be owned by Jewish agencies for the benefit of Jews only. One of these agencies is the Jewish National Fund, which, in its charter forbids sale or lease to non-Jews.

        • Specified Goods Tax and Luxury Tax Law [art 26, Laws of the State of Israel, vol. 6, p. 150 (1952)] Authorizes lower import taxes for Jewish citizens of Israel compared with non-Jewish citizens of Israel.

        • National Planning and Building Law (1965) Through various zoning laws freezes the growth of existing Arab villages while providing for the expansion Jewish settlements and creation of new ones. The law also re-classifies a large portion of established Arab villages as “unrecognized” and therefore nonexistent, allowing the state to cut off water and electricity as well as to simply appropriate that property.

        • Appropriations are carried out under The Requisitions Law which allows a “competent authority” to requisition the land – called “land requisition order” – so that only he may “use and exploit the land” as he sees fit. This applies to “home requisition orders” as well, whereby another “competent authority” who can “order the occupier of a house to surrender the house to the control of a person specified in the order, for residential purposes or for any other use, as may be prescribed in the order. “

        • In the education sector within Israel, as an example, the state spends $192 per year per non-Jewish student compared to $1,100 per Jewish student.

        • There is a planned Mosque Law that will prohibit the broadcasting of the Muslim call to prayer, which has been sounding over that land since the beginning of Islam.

        • Non-Jews living in the West Bank are denied access to the holy places of Jerusalem, which are only a few kilometers away from them.

        • ALSO, for the first time in the history of Islam and the history of Christianity, Palestinian Muslims and Christians in the West Bank and Gaza are denied access to their holy Places of Jerusalem, even on the high holy days of Eid, Christmas, and Easter Sunday.

        • Since Israel took the West Bank, the Christian population has declined from 20,000 in 1967 to less than 7500 today.

        • Military Order 1229: authorizes Israel to hold Palestinians in administrative detention for up to six months without charge or trial. Six-month detentions can be renewed indefinitely, without charge or trial.

        • Military Order 329 and 1650 effectively prevents Palestinians from being anywhere in the West Bank without a specific permit to be there, making it a criminal offense to go from one Palestinian town to another.

        • Military Oder #92 and #158: gives the Israeli military control of all water resources in the West Bank, which belongs to Palestinians.

        • Israel then allows the Palestinians access to only a fraction of the shared water resources, while unlawful Israeli settlements there receive virtually unlimited supplies creating a reality of green lawns and swimming pools for Jewish settlers and a parched life for Palestinians, whose access to water, according to the World Health Organization does not meet the minimum requirements for basic human water needs.

        • Furthermore, that fraction of confiscated Palestinian water is sold to Palestinians at 300% more than what it costs Jewish settlers in the same area. ($1.20/cubic meter vs $.40/cubic meter).

        • Military Orders #811 and #847: Allows Jews to purchase land from unwilling Palestinian sellers by using “power of attorney”.

        • Military Order #25: forbids public inspection of land transactions.

        • Militar Order #998: requires Palestinians to get Israeli military permission to make a withdrawal from their bank account.

        • Military Order #128: gives the Israeli military the right to take over any Palestinian business which is not open during regular business hours.

        • Military Order #138 & #134: forbids Palestinians from operating tractors or other heavy farm machinery on their land.

        • Military Order #93: gives all Palestinian insurance businesses to the Israeli Insurance Syndicate.

        • Military Order # 1015: requires Palestinians to get Israeli military permission to plant and grow fruit trees. This permit expires every year.
        • Through various military orders, according to the WHO, Israel has uprooted 2.5 million trees belonging to Palestinians, and which often represent their only means of sustenance.

        • (UNICEF): “Conditions have rarely been worse for Palestinian children.” One in 10 Palestinian children now suffer from stunted growth due to compromised health, poor diet and nutrition and 50% of Palestinian children are anemic, and 75% of those under 5 suffer from vitamin A deficiency.

        • Palestinian children are routinely imprisoned for months and years for throwing stones at Israeli jeeps, tanks, and soldiers. Many of them, as young as 12 years old, are tortured and held in solitary confinement.

        • Meanwhile, for bludgeoning a 10 year old Palestinian boy (Hilmi Shusha) to death with the butt of his rifle, an Israeli settler received community service and a fine.

        • A Palestinian man was convicted of rape and sentenced to 1.5 years in prison for having consensual sex with a Jewish woman, because he did not disabuse her of her assumption that he was Jewish.

      • amigo
        September 23, 2013, 6:43 am

        “I already wrote and admitted that there are two laws system – good or bad, right or wrong – they don’t contain apartheid laws as I mentioned in my above comments examples (interracial sex, segregation, and any law imposed on man because his race or nationality).”M 1,2 ,3?.

        Hmmmm.

        ” Jerusalem’s Armenians outraged as city approves Jews-only parking lot in Old City
        For decades, the parking lot was open to all, though Jewish Quarter residents paid far less for a parking sticker than their Armenian neighbors.”haaretz

        http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/jerusalem-s-armenians-outraged-as-city-approves-jews-only-parking-lot-in-old-city-1.410694

        Walks like a duck ,quacks like a duck.

        You know the rest.

        Mehane, we do want to thank you for aiding our cause by continually raising these points .Israeli Apartheid actions are far too many to hold in the average human memory bank.

        Your hasbara campaign has an upside , after all.

        Stick around.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 23, 2013, 8:49 am

        “By definition, Israel is no apartheid state”

        Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu disagree. But what the hell do they know about Apartheid, anyway, right?

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 23, 2013, 9:53 am

        @Shmuel: I am not here for reeducation. Reeducation is good for someone who is wrong all the way and can’t open his eyes to see the truth and the reality and someone that only see one side while the other side activities, part are war crimes, are ignored and never discussed seriously.

        I am not a man that play with words and sentences, smash any sentence and extract any word. No matter how you or others describe apartheid, none of the descriptions describe the situation in Israel. Israel is not an apartheid state and that it!! with Rome or without Rome!! as one that lived in Israel, you should know it better than others here and please, don’t mix between “racist activists” (which, unfortunately, we have in Israel) between “racist or apartheid state” – I sure you can distinguish between the two.

        Thanks for your recommendation to me to be offended by the reality of the system of oppression and discrimination in force in the OT, but I can’t do it since I offended first by the un proportional treatment Israel receives by putting it on the cross, while other major catastrophies, disasters, war crimes and (real) genocides take place every day in our planet. This lead to the anomaly in which little Palestinian child threw stones and was asked by soldier to stop received more publicity, condemnations and sympathy than genocide of 5,000 people in one day somewhere on this planet. I expect you agree with me at least at this point, although it is hard to you and others here to say one positive word to a Zionist like me.

        Shmuel, look, there is massive campaign in the media aimed to dehumanize and demonize the state of Israel. The aim of this campaign is to bring the end to the state of Israel and the Zionist project. Reading comments here, I am not sure people want peace and reconciliation with Israel but instead of Israel. If you think I wrong, please, you are welcome to convince me. In case I will be convinced from you, I will join you in your struggles. Meanwhile, I will continue my efforts for peace and reconciliation with Israel, a Jewish Zionist state, paragon of democratic state in the ME.

        You missed my comment on Khirbet Makhoul? Last Friday an Palestinian murdered his Jewish friend (a soldier, but friend) after he convinced him to visit his home in WB and hided the body in the sand. I waited to read about it here in a post, but nothing. I wrote about it a comprehensive comment. Usually, each one of my comments receives many replies, in this case I receive no reply at all and I also missed your comment.
        http://mondoweiss.net/2013/09/reuters-says-israeli-soldiers-manhandle-diplomats-but-nyt-calls-it-a-quarrel.html#comment-595536

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 23, 2013, 9:57 am

        @Amigo: Many thanks for the thanks!!! I also thank you for letting me, by your and others endless replies to me, the opportunity to show the real face of the state of Israel and the Zionist movement. So, please, continue with your replies. On behalf of many Israelis, thank you very much and also, for you special in Arabic, Shukran Jazilan!!!

      • Talkback
        September 23, 2013, 10:04 am

        MahaneYehude1 says: “All the points you wrote have nothing to apartheid.”

        Crime of Apartheid:
        “inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity “committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.”

        Keeping native nonjewish Palestinans expelled and denationalized by Jews to maintain a Zionist regime is Apartheid (actually worse as South Africans say).

        “I already wrote and admitted that there are two laws system – good or bad, right or wrong – they don’t contain apartheid laws.”

        LOL. So instead of having only one law system including ‘some’ (30) discriminating laws they actually have two whole different law systems! Who are you trying to fool?

        BTW. Did you know that Nonjews were living under martial law on the WEST side of the Green Line until the Zionist Junta of Palestine decided to continue conquering Lebensraum in the EAST?

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 23, 2013, 10:10 am

        @shingo: look, we are going in circle. I already received the list of 30 laws, and replied many times on this issues. I think better one read my former comments because it become tedious.

        I am not going to reply again on each part of your comment because I think I already wrote to much on them (especially your fact about the Christians which I wrote several comments and discussions about it). I only want your honest explanation for the following question I already asked you and hope this time I will receive honest answer: An Israeli called Mahane enters MW, writes that he wants peace which include Independent full sovereign Palestinian state including air and water control and full rights to all citizens of Israel. Why do you call Mahane racist and liar? where exactly do you see racism? Thanks.

      • seafoid
        September 23, 2013, 10:28 am

        http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/450ef62e-1fa1-11e3-aa36-00144feab7de.html

        “South Africa remains one of the most divided and spatially segregated countries in the world. That much is obvious. The N2 from the airport to Cape Town offers a crash course in it (despite the pre-World Cup roadside beautification schemes). On Nelson Mandela Boulevard above the Foreshore, curving round the banks and corporate headquarters of Cape Town, the modernist blueprint of high apartheid city planning is all around us. Roads as buffer zones and dividing lines. “Slum” flatteners, state-controlled corridors, cordons sanitaires.

        But a road such as the N2 also allows us to see the enormous paradox at the heart of the apartheid city, its cynicism and illogic. Insisting on racial separation, it relied on cross-racial labour. The result was, and still is, a city of movement and daily crossings: between spaces, languages, and ways of being. ”

        Isn’t it just the same in Holy Jerusalem ?

      • Shingo
        September 23, 2013, 10:28 am

        Reeducation is good for someone who is wrong all the way and can’t open his eyes to see the truth and the reality and someone that only see one side while the other side activities, part are war crimes, are ignored and never discussed seriously.

        You can’t be re-educated if you missed out on being educated the first time, which you admit, is your disadvantage – that you are uneducated and ignorant. There might be two sides to an argument, but there is only one set of facts and that is something you don’t have.

        Israel is not an apartheid state and there is no point denying it. If you weren’t so poorly educated, you would know that the crime of Apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_apartheid

        In other words, you don’t get to make up your own definition. There is one definition and it states that apartheid is the inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity “committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.”

        That describes Israel perfectly.

        Shmuel, look, there is massive campaign in the media aimed to dehumanize and demonize the state of Israel.

        Don’t be stupid MY1. There is no campaign and no one financing it. The only campaigns that exist are the never ending campaigns to re brand Israel and explain it to the world. The belief of course, being that the world would think differently about Israel if only they understood Israel’s side of the argument – something you are doing there.

        The campaigns has been a miserable failure for a very simple reason. No one is buying the white washing, and the pink washing. You can dress apartheid up all you like, and give it all the makeovers you like, but it’s still apartheid.

        What you are witnessing is the international disgust at Israel’s criminality and human rights violations and Israel has no one to blame for this but Israel. If you act like a pariah, you are not going to win friends.

        There is no point trying to convince you or any of the more literate shift workers using your name to post here, because your aim is to try and sell Israeli propaganda. It’s not up to anyone here to convince you. You and all the hasbarats that succeed you will be long gone and you will not have achieved anything because Israel’s apartheid policies, and apartheid laws and apartheid behavior will not have changed.

      • Shmuel
        September 23, 2013, 10:49 am

        Israel is not an apartheid state and that it!! with Rome or without Rome!!

        Got it. I will stop trying to confuse you with the facts.

        Thanks for your recommendation to me to be offended by the reality of the system of oppression and discrimination in force in the OT, but I can’t do it since I offended first by the un proportional treatment Israel receives … while other major catastrophies, disasters, war crimes and (real) genocides take place every day in our planet … there is massive campaign in the media aimed to dehumanize and demonize the state of Israel.

        Got it. You may be interested in “peace and reconciliation” or disturbed by oppression and violations of human rights on some level, but you have much bigger fish to fry: contextualising Israeli crimes and protecting Israel’s image as a “paragon” of democracy.

        Meanwhile, I will continue my efforts for peace and reconciliation with Israel, a Jewish Zionist state, paragon of democratic state in the ME.

        By doing battle against those who would put her “on the cross” by suggesting that she is anything but a “paragon of democratic state in the ME”. You have made your priorities absolutely clear. “Peace and reconciliation” not through the elimination of injustice, but through its contextualisation and rationalisation. Got it.

        You missed my comment on Khirbet Makhoul? Last Friday an Palestinian murdered his Jewish friend (a soldier, but friend) after he convinced him to visit his home in WB and hided the body in the sand.

        You are right, perhaps I should have commented on the murder of Tomer Hazan. I condemn it unequivocally. I have 3 nephews in the army right now, and my daughter was shocked by the news.

        How about Khirbet Makhoul and the ethnic cleansing of the Jordan Valley? Or would you rather discuss the applicability of the term “ethnic cleansing”, contextualising and rationalising it (security, zoning laws and building codes just like in the UK and Australia, provocation, international interference, paragon of democracy, no discrimination, etc.).

      • amigo
        September 23, 2013, 10:53 am

        “I also know that there is interracial tension between the Africans and the residents of south Tel-Aviv, a weak group of Israel society.” Mehane , 1/2/3 ??.

        which is the weak group.

        Give me a human response please.

      • MHughes976
        September 23, 2013, 11:04 am

        I would think of ‘apartheid’ as any system designed to maintain the separate existence of one social group in ways that clearly tend to ensure that that group is either powerful and privileged or weak and oppressed.

      • Hostage
        September 23, 2013, 3:08 pm

        @Shmuel: All the points you wrote have nothing to apartheid.

        We’ve pointed out on many occasions here that: 1) Israel is not a party to either the Apartheid Convention or the Rome Statute; and 2) Those conventions are not the source of fundamental human rights in international law. They simply contain some widely agreed-upon prohibitions.

        So, when half a dozen interested state parties and a UN rapporteur submitted written statements to the ICJ pointing out that Israel’s policies and practices in the occupied territories are identical to many of the constituent acts of apartheid listed in those conventions, the Court could not simply cite Israel’s violation of its treaty obligations under those conventions, because it’s not a contracting party.

        But the Court did note that, with the notable exception of Israeli or Jewish settlers, Israel has systematically violated the rights of the inhabitants of the occupied territories and included that same list of constituent acts, together with a finding that Israel had violation its obligations under other conventions, including the ICCPR, the ICESCR, and UN CRC treaties, in that connection.

        The UN has subsequently recognized the State of Palestine. All states have the capacity to exercise universal jurisdiction over certain crimes, like apartheid, or to accept the complimentary jurisdiction of the ICC for acts of apartheid committed on their territory – regardless of the motive involved. See for example Article 3 of the Apartheid convention. It only takes one constituent act to indict, prosecute, and convict the responsible officials. Only the victim state needs to be a state party to the Rome Statute.

      • Hostage
        September 23, 2013, 3:55 pm

        I am not a man that play with words and sentences, smash any sentence and extract any word.

        Yes you are. Your entire defense is based upon bogus semantics and falsehoods. Occupying powers do NOT have to alter existing laws or establish dual legal systems as you maintained. In fact, they are prohibited from transferring their own civilians into the occupied territory and have little if any authority under the rules of the Hague IV Convention to alter existing legislation.

        Apartheid is simply an aggravated form of racial discrimination or illegal segregation as defined in Articles 1 and 3 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and Articles 1 and 2 the Apartheid Convention. Both include and prohibit discrimination on the grounds of national origin or ethnicity:

        International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination
        Article 1

        1. In this Convention, the term “racial discrimination” shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.
        ”’
        Article 3

        States Parties particularly condemn racial segregation and apartheid and undertake to prevent, prohibit and eradicate all practices of this nature in territories under their jurisdiction.
        …..
        International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid
        Article I

        1. The States Parties to the present Convention declare that apartheid is a crime against humanity and that inhuman acts resulting from the policies and practices of apartheid and similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination, as defined in article II of the Convention, are crimes violating the principles of international law,

        The ICJ findings of fact outlined Israel’s adoption of many of these policies and practices and noted that they could not be excused on the grounds of necessity or Israel’s security, since the fence or wall isn’t even located in Israel. In any event, Article 3 of the Convention says that these are crimes against humanity regardless of the motive involved:

        Article II

        For the purpose of the present Convention, the term “the crime of apartheid”, which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practised in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:

        (a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person:

        (i) By murder of members of a racial group or groups;

        (ii) By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment;

        (iii) By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups;

        (b) Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part;

        (c) Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;

        d) Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;

        (e) Exploitation of the labour of the members of a racial group or groups, in particular by submitting them to forced labour;

        (f) Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.

        Article III

        International criminal responsibility shall apply, irrespective of the motive involved, to individuals, members of organizations and institutions and representatives of the State, whether residing in the territory of the State in which the acts are perpetrated or in some other State, whenever they:

        (a) Commit, participate in, directly incite or conspire in the commission of the acts mentioned in article II of the present Convention;

        (b) Directly abet, encourage or co-operate in the commission of the crime of apartheid.

        http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/apartheid-supp.html

      • Shingo
        September 23, 2013, 8:15 pm

        .think better one read my former comments because it become tedious.

        I have read them and it ‘a clear your feeble efforts have fallen short. In fact, you were completely ignorant if the definition of crime of apartheid, preferring to make up your own.

        Hostage has utterly destroyed you weak attempt to deny the apartheid laws of Israel.

        An Israeli called Mahane enters MW, writes that he wants peace which include Independent full sovereign Palestinian state including air and water control and full rights to all citizens of Israel.

        Which Mahane might you be referring to? The first one that appeared – the poorly educated potato seller – said he would oppose full sovereignty? Did you change your mind or did you not get the memo?

      • talknic
        September 24, 2013, 5:19 am

        MahaneYehude1 “46 years occupation”

        65 years according to the Israeli Government http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign+Relations/Israels+Foreign+Relations+since+1947/1947-1974/2+Jerusalem+Declared+Israel-Occupied+City-+Governm.htm

        It has been illegal to acquire territory by war…ANY war http://pages.citebite.com/y1f0t4q1v4son
        West Jerusalem has never been legally annexed to Israel.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 24, 2013, 6:06 am

        @talknic: No need to send links, I know the short history of my country. We, Shmuel and me, wrote 46 years since we talked on the 1967 war OT. If you want to count from 1948, I agree with you – 65 years.

        I agree with you that it is not legal to acquire territory by war, and in future peace agreement all sides will have to deal with the illegal things they all made ​​during 65 years of conflict.

        I agree with you about Jerusalem. I know and recognize the central importance of Jerusalem among my people but I can’t run from the reality. Since, residents of east Jerusalem are Palestinians, I agree that it will be their future capital although, as a Jerusalemite, it will be painful to me to see my city divided again and whole families divided behind borders, as was the situation in Beit Safafa before 1967.

        In conclusion, talknic, I agree with you.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 24, 2013, 3:43 pm

        @Shmuel: I just read your comment on the thread about Suheir Azzouni family. Well, I am not naive nor pretending but wrote that have minimal knowledge about the Israeli court system and how it works. As you know, I usually don’t write or comment on issues which I don’t know about it or have no details. I wrote the comment to Suheir only because I read the sentence “Our attorney hopes to convince MoI to reverse …”. Although all the laws, I think that each case is a separate case and even if the chance to win in Bagatz is low, it is worth to try. And yes, the “Wish you success” is honest.

        As @eljay wrote there: Happy and blessed Festivus to you, sir! :-)

      • Shingo
        September 24, 2013, 9:29 pm

        As you know, I usually don’t write or comment on issues which I don’t know about it or have no details.

        Actually that is all you appear to have done since you joined this blog, which is why you refuse to provide links to back up your arguments, preferring to ramble about your anecdotal experiences.

      • Shmuel
        September 25, 2013, 1:36 am

        As you know, I usually don’t write or comment on issues which I don’t know about it or have no details.

        You have explained your primary goal in commenting here: to defend Israel’s image as a “paragon of democracy”. Your comment on the High Court of Justice (HCJ) was entirely in this vein. You do not wish to be confused by facts, but would like to convey the impression that Israel is a democracy with an independent judiciary. You therefore ignore the reality of the ongoing ethnic cleansing of Jerusalem and pretend that Palestinians may place their faith in a system you portray as fundamentally just (while expressing personal solidarity, of course, and professing ignorance of the “details” of the case).

        No knowledge or facts needed to create an impression — which brings us back to our first discussion on the meaning of hasbara/propaganda.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 25, 2013, 3:16 am

        @Shmuel: As you recommended me to learn the meaning of “ethnocracy”, I recommend you to learn the meaning “ethnic cleansing” before you use it million of times. Baruch Hashem, East Jerusalem is Palestinian and will remain Palestinian;
        http://mondoweiss.net/2013/09/violence-works-by-ending-complacency.html#comment-596118

        Your replies to me about the Azzouni family were just unfair. I sent an honest comment to a lovely family, and for you it is only part of Hasbara campaign. And yes, I am not writing on issue which I don’t understand or has no accurate details.

      • Shingo
        September 25, 2013, 4:48 am

        I recommend you to learn the meaning “ethnic cleansing” before you use it million of times.

        That’s easy. It’s what Israel did in 1947/48 to the Palestinians.

      • Shmuel
        September 25, 2013, 5:15 am

        I recommend you to learn the meaning “ethnic cleansing”

        “Maximum land, minimum Arabs”, “silent transfer”, “Judaisation” — call it whatever you like, just stop excusing it or pretending that it is not happening (all in the name of “peace and reconciliation”, naturally).

        Your sympathy for the Azzounis is worthless unless you recognise the racist system that has expelled them (and thousands of others of the “wrong” ethnicity) from their city.

        East Jerusalem is Palestinian

        Except for the gerrymandering, settlements, expropriations, expulsions, the wall, etc.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 25, 2013, 6:03 am

        @Shmuel: Where excatly do you see ethnic cleansing or whatever you call it? in Bet Safafa which grew 400% from 1967? In Beit Hanina? or maybe in Sur Baher? All those “facts” are no more than exaggerations of several cases aimed only one thing: to do brainwash to the honest readers that don’t really know the reality and can’t check the details.

        My sympathy to Azzouni family is worthless? Thank you very much.

        I know you like to say the last word, so I will not reply any more on Azzouni’s issue.

      • Shingo
        September 25, 2013, 6:35 am

        Where excatly do you see ethnic cleansing or whatever you call it? in Bet Safafa which grew 400% from 1967?

        Does the fact that the Jewish population in Israel prove there was no expulsion from Egypt in 1948?

        Where excatly do you see ethnic cleansing or whatever you call it?

        In these maps.
        http://israelandpalestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/shrinking_map_palestine_two_state_solution1.jpg

        So the fact that populations have increased in specific areas does not refute that ethnic cleansing has taken place.

        All those “facts” are no more than exaggerations of several cases aimed only one thing: to do brainwash to the honest readers that don’t really know the reality and can’t check the details.

        The only one suffering from being brainwashed and who doesn’t really know the reality and can’t check the details is you.

        You’r an apologist for racism, ethnic cleansing and apartheid.

      • Hostage
        September 25, 2013, 6:38 am

        Where excatly do you see ethnic cleansing or whatever you call it?

        Ethnic cleansing is a political term that describes the use of threats or force to deliberately alter the demographic balance of the population of a territory in favor of one or more ethnic groups. The practice is prohibited by Article 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention. The UN and the international community of states have been condemning Israel for violating that treaty provision for decades now. See for example: “Israel admits it revoked residency rights of a quarter million Palestinians: Many of those prevented from returning were students or young professionals, working aboard to support their families.”
        http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-admits-it-revoked-residency-rights-of-a-quarter-million-palestinians-1.435778

        FYI, the Nakba is also an example of ethnic cleansing in which 3/4 of a million people were permanently displaced either internally or beyond the frontiers of Palestine. Nakba denial is a comment policy violation that can get you banned here.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 25, 2013, 7:13 am

        @Hostage: after so many times, you should know me better and learn my views, as I know your views. We are not talking on the Nakba, which I wrote several times about it, the reasons, the consequences and I also offer solution which is not my original offer but the Israeli party I support. You should look at a person profile before commenting.

        Ban me? don’t worry – it will come sooner or later. One of the techniques to silence unwanted guests.

      • Talkback
        September 25, 2013, 9:02 am

        MahaneYehude1 says: “I recommend you to learn the meaning “ethnic cleansing”

        It means for example keeping refugees expelled. And if they are also denationalized to maintain a regime dominatated by an ehtnic minority it means Apartheid.

        Would you like to comment on that, MahaneYehude1?

      • Hostage
        September 25, 2013, 5:10 pm

        Ban me? don’t worry – it will come sooner or later. One of the techniques to silence unwanted guests.

        No you’ll get repeated warnings before that will ever happen.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 25, 2013, 5:21 pm

        “Ban me? don’t worry – it will come sooner or later. One of the techniques to silence unwanted guests.”

        Nope. Just those that refuse to obey the rules. If hoppy and Oleg can keep themselves from getting their tickets punched while they spread their nonsense, I’ve no doubt that you, person-posting-as-MehaneYehude1, can keep on the right side of the line.

      • Shingo
        September 25, 2013, 10:31 pm

        Ban me? don’t worry – it will come sooner or later.

        One of the techniques to deal with Israeli propagandists. They don’t last long here before exposing themselves.

        The question will be, which MY1 to ban.

      • Taxi
        September 26, 2013, 2:18 am

        Mehane as “potato seller”?

        I don’t believe the silly charade whatsoever.

      • Denis
        September 23, 2013, 5:15 pm

        @Mahane: Only one thing I don’t really understand: why so many people coming to this Apartheid state

        Yeah, well it’s not that hard to get a handle on this mystery, Mahane. All of those Ethiopian Jews are doing aliyah for the same reason all the Californian ones are: they want to get a free, subsidized piece of a West Bank settlement. It’s called getting in at basement prices. They figure once the Palestinians are driven out in 30 years, the real estate prices are going to take off like an IAF F-16.

        Similar economic forces were responsible for British and Dutch pouring into South Africa. If you were a Palestinian, you wouldn’t have as much trouble seeing the obvious.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 24, 2013, 3:29 pm

        @Denis: I wrote about the African immigrants to Israel, not the Ethiopian Jews.

  3. ivri
    September 22, 2013, 12:11 pm

    It is likely that the violence option has already been exhausted by the Palestinians in the 2 Intifadas. There is violence fatigue on both sides now. In addition those events triggered in Israel the build-up of a huge machinery, physical and virtual, to prevent it from happening again, which means it will play out altogether differently now. Then there is the violence in the region, which was not there before – it steals the limelight, which is necessary for that to make real impact. And then there is perhaps also a psychological saturation of violence – they see on the screens what it really means in reality, in Iraq and Syria in particular, and that must decrease any appetite to share that – maybe they even bless they good fortunes for being lucky enough to be spared all those unimaginable atrocities around.

    • Annie Robbins
      September 22, 2013, 1:38 pm

      Then there is the violence in the region, which was not there before – it steals the limelight

      do you think the violence in the region is good for israel’s reputation?

      • ivri
        September 22, 2013, 4:49 pm

        Annie: “Do you think the violence in the region is good for Israel`s reputation”?
        What happened in the region in the last decade or so must have had a profound impact on how Israel and its problems are seen by both global and local players, simply because everything in this world is relative – they always compare you to others in whatever you do and the severity of a problem is always in regard to other ones faced. As a result of the Syrian saga (and also what goes on in Lebanon) Israel must be now seen by many as a force of stability – in particular it is a part of an implicit US-alliance axis that developed in the region, which includes Saudi-Arabia & the Gulf states and Jordan (and perhaps partly now also Egypt). Who knows, Israel may be even approaching its “Europe moment”, namely, as happened after WW2 among European countries, yet another “eternal conflict” is in the process of passing away (while the many that are fixated by past mindsets fail to notice that)

      • Hostage
        September 23, 2013, 4:37 pm

        What happened in the region in the last decade or so must have had a profound impact on how Israel and its problems are seen by both global and local players, simply because everything in this world is relative – they always compare you to others in whatever you do and the severity of a problem is always in regard to other ones faced.

        “They” are the international community of states and their organizations. They, including the UN Security Council and the on-going 10th Emergency Special Session of the General Assembly. Both of those organs still consider Israeli policies and practices as a serious threat to the maintenance of international peace and security.

      • OlegR
        September 22, 2013, 8:17 pm

        It’s puts our conflict in the right perspective.
        Good is not the word that can describe murder and madness all around.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 22, 2013, 9:14 pm

        It’s puts our conflict in the right perspective.

        the violence in the region stealing the limelight puts the conflict in the right perspective? hmm…ok. therefore it makes a certain sense from a hasbara perspective to highlight the other violence in the region. maybe that’s one reason so many pro israel posters bring up syria so often. not because of all the caring for syria going on, but to draw attention away from israel’s expansion.

        somebody really took advantage of that when the US invaded iraq. really stepped up settlements. do you think if the US attacked syria israel would step it up again? if not why not.

        and while we’re wondering, do you think it makes a certain sense from a hasbara perspective to instigate other violence in the region? this reminds me of an article i read the other day about israel missing ahmadinejad. he made their job ssssooooo much easier. villans are good like that.(err, maybe ‘good’ is the wrong word)

      • OlegR
        September 23, 2013, 4:38 am

        /not because of all the caring for syria going on, but to draw attention away from israel’s expansion./

        Does it matter whether we “care” or not ?
        And who are we, our government is driven by real politic just like every other government in the world not yours not the Russians or the Saudi no morals whatsoever play in their calculations.
        The citizens mostly care the way they always do all over the world ,wave their hand in despair and talk about how horrible it all is.A minority takes some action like sending relief aid or donating money.

        Surya is still a horrible conflict and an atrocious humanitarian disaster
        Egypt is unstable and maybe on the brink of a civil war or at least an Alegrian type insurrection.
        Compared to that our bickering with Palestinians is seen as just that.
        Like it or not these are the facts.

        /somebody really took advantage of that when the US invaded iraq. really stepped up settlements. do you think if the US attacked syria israel would step it up again? if not why not./

        Annie i know all of your conspiracy theories give them a rest.
        Catching fish in muddy waters is what governments do that’s their job to exploit situations to what they see as their advantage.That does not mean that they initiated the muddying up in the first place.
        Israel was not all for the war in Iraq. Just like it’s not all for the war in Iran
        there are opinions this way and that way.
        That does not mean we were sorry to see the son of a bitch hang.

        /and while we’re wondering, do you think it makes a certain sense from a hasbara perspective to instigate other violence in the region? this reminds me of an article i read the other day about israel missing ahmadinejad. he made their job ssssooooo much easier. villans are good like that.(err, maybe ‘good’ is the wrong word)/

        Are you implying the Israel was behind the election of Ahmadinejad,
        if so you should see somebody.
        If you are implying that Israel is a regional player of some significance
        than you would be correct but the same is true about Turkey, Egypt
        Saudi Arabia the Gulf states Iran, China, Russia and i don’t see you
        bickering about their involvement in the region. You only fixate on Israel
        and the US, now why is that ?

      • Annie Robbins
        September 23, 2013, 1:10 pm

        Are you implying the Israel was behind the election of Ahmadinejad, if so you should see somebody.

        you’re funny. i enjoy your use of the question for a segue suggesting i’m crazy, how proficient. here, let’s you be the judge of what the suggestion is via Chemi Shalev:

        http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.548013

        Rohani’s charm offensive poses difficult challenge for Netanyahu
        The Iranian’s sophistication coupled with America’s disdain for confrontation begs the question: where is Ahmadinejad when we really need him?

        …….

        The attention, some of it fawning, that is already being bestowed on the so-called “moderate” Iranian president has confirmed the widespread assumption of most analysts following Rohani’s election in August as Iran’s 7th president: that it wouldn’t take long for Israel and other critics of Iran to sorely miss his predecessor, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

        After all, for the past 8 years, Israel’s efforts to convince the world and especially the U.S. to tackle Iran’s nuclear designs head on relied on two main figures: the relentless Netanyahu and the equally adamant, Holocaust-denying Ahmadinejad. And with all due respect to Netanyahu’s formidable public relations prowess, it was Ahmadinejad who served as Israel’s number one talking point, its strategic propaganda asset, a poster boy who self-explained Tehran’s sinister designs.

        so let’s get back to your comment: our government is driven by real politic just like every other government in the world ….. no morals whatsoever play in their calculations.

        ok, i agree no morals whatsoever play in your governments calculations. it seems very clear to me the priority is expansion. and re syria you had this to say Compared to that our bickering with Palestinians is seen as just that.
        Like it or not these are the facts.

        yes, you see compared to syria, compared to other conflicts in the ME, compared to nuclear war w/iran, compared to all the other things the fear mongering propagandists distract us with…it’s ‘just a fact’ israel’s conflict with palestinians is ‘bickering’.

        here’s the thing, it’s not ‘just a fact’ i/p is bickering. it’s actually driving lots of foreign policy in DC because of the lobbiests who protect israel. (or didn’t you notice it’s not called AJPAC?)

        Annie i know all of your conspiracy theories give them a rest.
        Catching fish in muddy waters is what governments do that’s their job to exploit situations to what they see as their advantage.That does not mean that they initiated the muddying up in the first place.

        iow, it’s just a coincidence israel expanded settlement building when we were engaged in war w/iraq. hmm..well here’s what i don’t understand oleg, if, as you say, no morals “whatsoever” play in the calculations of israel’s government, why wouldn’t they expand in the fog of war? if what they want to do is take over the entirety of palestine (ie’land of israel’) and they in fact did expand on speed dial adding hundreds of thousands of settlers after their neocon minions pushed and shoved the american psyche towards a war on terror…..why don’t you think it entered into their calculations by design? because they are not smart enough to put 2 and 2 together? because even tho “no morals whatsoever play in the calculations” in this circumstance their expansion in the fog of war would be just too immoral? please explain.

        and let me know if you think Chemi Shalev was “implying the Israel was behind the election of Ahmadinejad” lol.

        You only fixate on Israel and the US, now why is that ?

        oh, maybe it’s cuz my country is not helping Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Gulf states, Iran, China or Russia colonize palestine.

        maybe my congress isn’t joined at the hip w/Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Gulf states, Iran, China or Russia, against the best interest of our people.

      • Hostage
        September 23, 2013, 4:21 pm

        Compared to that our bickering with Palestinians is seen as just that.

        If you don’t stop engaging in Nakba denial, you’ll overstay your welcome here pretty quickly.

        We are still comparing decades of war with thousands of innocent Palestinian civilian casualties, the ethnic cleansing of three-quarters of a million Palestinian people, massacres of Palestinians, and routine attacks – including cold blooded murders committed by settlers that go uninvestigated and unpunished. That can’t be defined or defended as “bickering”, unless you are a psychopath.

      • just
        September 23, 2013, 5:14 pm

        Bravo Hostage!

      • OlegR
        September 23, 2013, 7:04 pm

        You country is a major ally to Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Gulf states
        you just don’t advertise it as much.

        AIPAC driving US to Iraq war on behalf and with encouragement of Israel
        Is a conspiracy theory that your site peddles left and right.
        That does not make any truer.

        /yes, you see compared to syria, compared to other conflicts in the ME, compared to nuclear war w/iran, compared to all the other things the fear mongering propagandists distract us with…/

        I am so sorry that Syrian and Egyptian massacres is such a distraction from what you think should really be the issue you poor poor dear.

        I do believe you were distraught when you replied to me.
        Maybe you should try again.

        PS.
        Ahmedinejad being an outspoken antisemite with genocidal rhetoric definitely made him an easier pr target then the soft talking cultured Rouhani. That does not make Rouhani any less dangerous in reality
        (potentially maybe he is a great reformator and peacemaker, we shall see).

        But again if you think that Israel somehow got him elected you should really seek some professional help.That would be a bit too much even by
        the usual standard around here.

      • RoHa
        September 23, 2013, 10:37 pm

        “unless you are a psychopath.”

        Well, yes. He’s a Zionist.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 24, 2013, 9:44 am

        I do believe you were distraught when you replied to me. Maybe you should try again….you should really seek some professional help.

        sooo creative oleg!

  4. Krauss
    September 22, 2013, 1:52 pm

    As usual brilliant commentary.

    But one small quibble. Here I think the main difference is the fundamental and philosophical outlook of America and Israel. We often say, or rather AIPAC and its minions do, that the two share a lot of values. But dig deeper, and there is a fundamentally – and in my view unbridgable – chasm.

    Israel’s foundational principle is ethnocracy. United States was founded as open democracy – that only gave votes to white men of age. But there was never any doubt when you looked into the intentions of the founding fathers, the federalist papers and so on, where their moral compass was. That’s why you had a brutal civil war, partly because of the moral argument was won because they could go back and re-cite Jefferson, Adams, Franklin and so on and there was no real way to get out of the fact that they would be against slavery in principle(even if many of them sinned privately).

    Israel’s democratic status is secondary. You know about recent legislation to essentially scratch the democratic part and underline the Jewish part.
    To use John Brown as an analogy again, where would the Israeli Lincoln be? John Brown would be a voice in the wilderness without a Lincoln and a significant plurality of the American people to end slavery.

    How many Israeli Jews really want to end the occupation? Does anyone believe we’ll see an Israeli Lincoln? We’re more likely to get an Israeli Mussolini.
    As you yourself noted many times before, the Israeli Jewish version of the 2SS is essentially Rabin’s glorified bantustans, essentially Apartheid with some lipgloss. Ask most Israeli Jews for a real 2SS, giving up settlements like Ariel, the judaization/ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem etc, and you get 80-85% opposed.

    And this is in peace time. Remember that 95% of the Israeli Jewish public were pro-Cast Lead, even with chemical weapons being dropped.
    The major difference between the Americans and the Israelis is that the American people are a fundamentally moral people. The Israeli people?
    Drifting into facism.

    • Krauss
      September 22, 2013, 2:01 pm

      Just to clarify, since there is a total assymetric relationship between the two parties, I cannot see much bloodshed. Israel has far too effective of a military.
      The only scenario with a lot of bloodshed is a civil war inside Israel between factions of the IDF – but that will never happen as even the most secular Jewish Israeli have views which are closer to pro-settlement Liberman than anti-apartheid Meretz when pushed into a corner.

      Thus there is no internal spark for change in the same way there was in the American civil war; there’s no moral majority – or even plurality – inside Israel. The minority that is moral is incredibly small/marginalized.
      Remember, South Africa gave up because of demographics. Israel feels confident, and not without reason, that it can continue because it sees itself winning the demographic war. By limiting the Arab birth rate inside the green line and nearly-starving Gaza outside it.

      Israel also has the Holocaust as a psychological backdrop, we can’t underestimate the sheer crazy factor of that fact. Backed into a corner, armed with nukes, we could see the ‘samson option’ in play.

      As you yourself noted, most Israelis reminded you of North Koreans, and they ever half-jokingly asserted that they’d become one if ‘the world turns on us’.
      Israel can also ward off any external pressure by simply saying we got nukes; don’t touch us. We got 2nd strike capabilities too.

      I don’t think Israel will win the PR war, but I think many if not most in the pro-peace movement underestimate how much longer Israel can and will hold out. Past analogues to the Berlin Wall, Soviet Union etc misses the point. Those events happened because people had somewhere to go and their masters were far away. In this case, master and slave is intertwined. Neither has anywhere to go and the master feels he will die if he lets go; and he may be right; at least in a philosophical sense(Zionism as a concept/idea).

    • RoHa
      September 22, 2013, 9:13 pm

      “and re-cite Jefferson, Adams, Franklin”

      The best once to cite would have been Thomas Paine. He invented the USA and was a fierce opponent of slavery.

      • Krauss
        September 23, 2013, 2:56 pm

        Paine was a propagandist, he wasn’t a founding father. He was merely a supporter from the sidelines.
        (That still doesn’t diminish his acts but let’s keep him in perspective in relation to American history compared to, say, Washington, Adams, Madison, Jefferson or Franklin).

      • RoHa
        September 23, 2013, 9:28 pm

        I don’t know what qualifies someone as a founding father, but since it is ideas of equality and rejection of slavery which are being referred to, Paine’s count. (Especially since he wrote them in clear, plain, English. I deeply wish modern writers could emulate his style.)

        Paine was a far stronger opponent of slavery than Jefferson and Washington. Aside from his articles on the topic, he wrote the preamble to the law against it in Pennsylvania.

        As far as his place in the founding of the USA is concerned, he can hardly be called a supporter from the sidelines.

        Paine’s Common Sense converted multitudes (including Washington, and I think, Jefferson) to the idea of American independence. It was a best seller which changed the entire political picture.

        The Declaration of Independence is so full of Paine’s ideas that are arguments that he was the author. (Paine never claimed that himself, but there is no doubt that Jefferson drew heavily on Paine in composing it.)

        Paine was an aide to Washington, and his American Crisis writings inspired the revolutionaries to keep going through the winter of 1776.

        He encouraged Jefferson to purchase the Louisiana territory.

        And, of course, he invented the name.

  5. justicewillprevail
    September 22, 2013, 2:54 pm

    I think you miss out one aspect of the brutality of the subjugation of Palestinians. Besides its intimidatory nature, and its relentless drive to engender despair and futility in Palestinians, it also has the extra bonus for Israel of deliberate provocation. As long as they are pushing people beyond any limit of human tolerance or endurance, then the inevitable attempts at push back, whether feeble home-made rockets, stones or peaceful protests, is meat and drink to the rottweiler-like ‘security’ forces of Israel. It is deliberate baiting, and you can see and hear the triumphant reaction of the PR machine when they immediately take such incidents and broadcast them to the world as ‘justification’ for yet another siege, lockdown, violence and imprisonment-without-trial by the existentially threatened and terrified supermen of the IDF with their state-of-the-art weaponry. Violence is inevitable, given the depths of oppressive forces surrounding Palestinians, but it is more than welcome by Israel, which would like nothing more than the feeblest of excuses to raze more Palestinian villages, towns and farms. It is an engineered Kafkaesque maze, designed with a diabolical kind of ingenuity, to ensure a no-win situation for Palestinians, whatever direction they take in trying to assert their basic human and civil rights, peacefully or violently.

  6. Obsidian
    September 22, 2013, 3:15 pm

    68 dead in a mall in Kenya because Kenyans were complacent and let their government meddle in Somali politics.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/world/africa/nairobi-mall-shooting.html?hp&gwh=8A94D712D9353D8B4E0310B964F261B1

    Yup. Violence works Phil.

    • amigo
      September 22, 2013, 4:48 pm

      “Yup. Violence works Phil.” Obsidious.

      That,s funny coming from a zio apologist whose tin pot nation has it,s nose stuck in the Politics of several Sovereign Nations.

      Hypocrite.

    • justicewillprevail
      September 22, 2013, 4:59 pm

      Diversion, and irrelevant to the argument here. Of course you have a vested interest in muddling political situations around the world with the stark reality of israel’s constant everyday violence towards indigenous people. Violence does work for israel, of course. Maybe that is your confused point.

    • Cliff
      September 22, 2013, 5:13 pm

      huh?

  7. NorthCascadian
    September 22, 2013, 5:20 pm

    The Syrian Girl (who is broadcasting out of Australia), posits that if the living standard of the majority of Israeli Jews fell very far, most would leave quickly, back to their “home countries”. She speculates that an attack on Syria would result in an attack on Israel, strategic victory is not required so much as degrading the living standards of the occupiers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk4FFcpquJw
    I suspect the tipping point is quite close for a lot of Israeli Jews I doubt they really want to tough anything out.

  8. Hostage
    September 22, 2013, 6:52 pm

    Violence works– by ending complacency . . . History may credit Mr. Abbas with reigning over the more virtuous phase of this cycle, but he has likely laid the groundwork for the uglier one.

    That fact has been pointed out here on several occasions. The US and Israel have been very effective in denying the Palestinians access to the International Criminal Court after the Gaza offensive and the raid on the Aid Flotilla by threatening to cutoff aid or punishing them.

    Punishing Palestinians who seek legitimate access to the courts can only strengthen grass roots support for those Palestinian factions which argue that they have no other recourse and are entitled to use violence to take the law into their own hands. Punishing the victims also destroys the reputation of a country that pledges itself to “liberty and justice for all”.

    • Philip Weiss
      September 23, 2013, 9:59 am

      I agree. I am sure the grass roots will support Palestinians when they turn to violence, as the abolitionists supported John Brown. It’s inevitable. And one reason for the dehumanization of Israelis that I see. That’s why nonviolent action is so urgent

  9. Danaa
    September 22, 2013, 7:31 pm

    Unfortunately, the time for a violent third Intifada has come and gone. The Israeli occupation legions have been effective at imposing a “Matrix of control” upon Palestinians’ everyday lives. The fascists troopers – and their armed settler milita now control palestinians’ water, livelihoods, food sources, sewage, means of electronic communications and daily movements. israel has countless political prisoners in its dungeon jails that can be used as bargaining chips to get still more informants. Plus there are those PA types who can be utilized as a collaborator Vichy government as has been the case these past 10 years. that part can only get worse as the “economic peace” spreads its tentacles across the population.

    Whatever uprising takes place will be quickly subjugated, and will be used as excuse for extreme punitive measures – the great Israeli fascist thinkers have no doubt a sliding scale of such penalties from torturing children to confiscating lands to outright executions, to just slow strangulation of entire villages. They will not shy from using any means necessary and the sum total of voices in israel itself against the most brutal means will amount but to a faint whisper.

    That path is not the way anywhere. So what is?

    IMO, the first order of the day is for Palestinians to survive – as best they can with their spirit intact – however that can be done. Concentrate on education and make sure that everyone speaks English (hebrew is much less important I believe. Palestinians should speak to their conquerors and oppressors in a third language as a form of protest. I believe most israelis have the necessary rudimentary knowledge of English, though here and there, for the less educated, sign language may be needed. Bonus: it drives them nuts when palestinians speak English to them). they should hold on to their dignity and try and maintain as much as possible of their culture and knowledge of agricultural skills. Whenever possible, build small manufacturing and/or electronic/software based entities to maintain and enhance technological competence and generate pockets of employment. It’s not right for everyone, but technology can play dividends for entire communities. Continue to reach out to the rest of the world to whatever extent possible – on the human rights level and by all means get as many versed in law as possible, including international law. And, most significantly each and every person, village and community should practice BDS as best they can, as we all should.

    The rest is waiting. I believe the next big upheavals will come from within the israeli society itself. Which is undergoing serious demographic and cultural changes as we speak. Already, a majority of students are enrolled in religious schools and the haredi in particular will need to expand their habitats further. And as they do, israeli society will become increasingly sectarian in outlook. Far from a melting pot, it’s be like a centrifuge that will separate the different layers of society further and further apart. More and more will leave as soon as they can and all the departures will be from among the skilled and the secular. The Tel Aviv bubble will shrink upon itself, until it’s like little islands around hotels, beaches and some high rises, where the Avishai tanned cosmopolitans will continue to sip their pale lattes and contemplate their ever shrinking navels, smug in their sense of superiority, far far from all those maddening “others”. And as they sip so shall they plan their next trip abroad, wondering whether the next one is the one for keeps.

    I predict that two decades from now, the “new” israel will be radically different in outlook, culture and composition from the current one, despite superficial similarities. The ever declining educational standards will finally catch up with the workforce and a steady deterioration in workplace skills will become impossible to ignore. With an ever increasing number of ultra-orthodox mouths to feed, more drastic housing shortages inside israel and higher taxes to pay for it all, will result in shakier economic foundations. The government will be more right wing than it is now, more oppressive, racist laws will be passed, the supreme court eviscerated and much of the “left” will be forced to go underground or leave and continue to battle from the outside. Most significantly, the IDF will change completely as the officer corps from among the nationalist religious will reach the highest positions. At that point it’ll be clear that there can be no removing of settlers. Possibly, the plans for a third temple will start taking shape. And who knows what other crazy plans will be laid for all to see. Religion can be a crazy thing indeed. It’s funny that way.

    When American visitors show up they will sense, even not knowing Hebrew, that something is amiss, since the all-around expressions of triumphalism mixed with paranoia will be palpable. After all, such changes as I predict will be accompanied by the rest of the world really turning off in disgust. As the oppression of Palestinians – inside israel and in the OTs increase, BDS will have picked up lots of steam, perhaps even gone mainstream in places. It will not be possible to say one is from israel without feeling condemnation. And israelis will respond in kind, going ever deeper into their respective shells, comforting each other through mutual dread of the “bad goys” out there, baying for their blood.

    How will all this save the Palestinians? that’s coming in part II may be soon, may be not so soon (hint: it’s not obvious, but sometimes the best outcomes aren’t).

    • Cliff
      September 22, 2013, 7:51 pm

      Great post Danaa.

    • Taxi
      September 23, 2013, 2:47 am

      Danaa,
      “I predict that two decades from now…”

      Doubtful that israel can survive in its luxurious ‘villa in the jungle’ for two more decades. Israel is one war away from utter ruin. A war that will plausibly occur way within your “two decades” mark.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 24, 2013, 2:46 am

        @Taxi: exactly similar to Gamal Abdel-Nasser declaration prior to six day war in 1967. Keep dreaming.

      • Taxi
        September 24, 2013, 6:18 pm

        Keep your bags packed, Mahane.

      • Shingo
        September 24, 2013, 9:21 pm

        exactly similar to Gamal Abdel-Nasser declaration prior to six day war in 1967.

        What declaration?

        He never declared war in Israel.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 24, 2013, 11:12 pm

        @Taxi: Instead of you waiting for reparations and offering us to pack our bags, better take care of the millions who are now in the ME without a home and I don’t mean just the Palestinians. Many of them also came to your country. It is time for peace, Taxi, not more and more sufferings and hatred. Peace will come soon.

        If you have little time, please, read the following:
        “The Arab world wasted hundreds of billions of dollars and lost tens of thousands of innocent lives fighting Israel, which they considered is their sworn enemy, an enemy whose existence they never recognized. The Arab world has many enemies and Israel should have been at the bottom of the list. The real enemies of the Arab world are corruption, lack of good education, lack of good health care, lack of freedom, lack of respect for the human lives and finally, the Arab world had many dictators who used the Arab-Israeli conflict to suppress their own people.”
        Complete article: http://www.arabnews.com/arab-spring-and-israeli-enemy

      • Shingo
        September 25, 2013, 2:09 am

        It is time for peace, Taxi, not more and more sufferings and hatred. Peace will come soon.

        If it comes, it won’t from Israel. If peace emerges it will be in spite of Israel, not because of it.

        < The Arab world wasted hundreds of billions of dollars and lost tens of thousands of innocent lives fighting Israel

        Israel would have lost billions too, were it not for the US willingness to pick up the tab. In fact, the war with Hezbollah in 2006 cost Israel billions, which created a panic in the Israeli government who didn’t know how they would pay for it. Along came the US and saved their bacon.

        The IDF is itself 20 billion in the red with no way to pay for it.

        The Arab world has many enemies and Israel should have been at the bottom of the list.

        What enemies? The British admitted all along that creating a Jewish state in the Middle East would create division and instability, which is what they secretly wanted. The last thing they wanted was a united Arab world.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 25, 2013, 2:56 am

        Shingo: Please, read the complete article in order to understand what the author means by “enemies”.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 25, 2013, 2:58 am

        @Shingo: Please, read my and other comments carefully. Taxi said that Israel won’t exist. I replied on this claim.

      • Taxi
        September 25, 2013, 4:10 am

        “@Taxi: Instead of you waiting for reparations and offering us to pack our bags, better take care of the millions who are now in the ME without a home and I don’t mean just the Palestinians. Many of them also came to your country. It is time for peace, Taxi, not more and more sufferings and hatred. Peace will come soon.”

        Where do you get off dismissing reparations to the Palestinians after 64 years of a brutal and ongoing occuption?! Are you for real?! And then distracting from the issue by mentioning other mideastern refugees in need of help, refugees that israel, by the way, is grandly responsible for creating. And dude, I’m an American visiting the Lebanon – so like, “my country” is not hosting mideast refugees. My country is part of the problem in creating millions of mideast refugees.

        Pointless in posting any links to me: I’m know not to touch any zio-linked articles, not even with a ten foot pole. Been in this I/P game too long to fall for zio rubbish.

        Talking peace with israelis is like talking virginity in a whorehouse. I say it again: israel will NEVER have peace. And it shouldn’t. It don’t deserve it.

      • Shingo
        September 25, 2013, 4:46 am

        Shingo: Please, read the complete article in order to understand what the author means by “enemies”.

        The author does no use the word “enemies”. You clearly don’t understand what you read.

      • Shingo
        September 25, 2013, 4:46 am

        Taxi said that Israel won’t exist. I replied on this claim.

        The CIA has predicted Israel won’t last much longer either.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 25, 2013, 5:24 am

        @Shingo: Please, open the article and try to find the sentence: “The real enemies of the Arab world are….” or other sentences with the word “enemy”. I appreciate if you read the whole article and write your impression instead of comment on technical things.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 25, 2013, 5:25 am

        @Shingo: OK, if the CIA has predicted Israel won’t last much longer, why do you waste your time here?

      • yrn
        September 25, 2013, 5:31 am

        Shingo

        This is from the CIA
        “the Jews will be forced to withdraw from isolated positions, and having been drawn into a war of attrition, will gradually be defeated. the Jews will be able to hold out no longer than two years.”
        Any Idea when it was written knowledgeable Shingo ?

      • yrn
        September 25, 2013, 5:49 am

        Oh and here is another CIA report that claims that Israel is gone in 20 year.
        For the pleasure of all the readers here.
        Nothing like presstv.
        http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/88491.html

      • Shingo
        September 25, 2013, 10:32 pm

        This is from the CIA

        So was this:

        “The Jews will be the actual aggressors against the Arabs. However, the Jews will claim that they are merely defending the boundaries of a state which were traced by the UN and approved, at least in principle, by two-thirds of the UN membership. The question which will confront the Security Council in scarcely ten days’ time will be whether Jewish armed attack on Arab communities in Palestine is legitimate or whether it constitutes such a threat to international peace and security as to call for coercive measures by the Security Council. The situation may be made more difficult and less clear-cut if, as is probable, Arab armies from outside Palestine cross the frontier to aid their disorganized and demoralized brethren who will be the objects of Jewish attack. In the event of such Arab outside aid the Jews will come running to the Security Council with the claim that their state is the object of armed aggression and will use every means to obscure the fact that it is their own armed aggression against the Arabs inside Palestine which is the cause of Arab counter-attack.”

      • Shingo
        September 25, 2013, 10:34 pm

        Oh and here is another CIA report that claims that Israel is gone in 20 year.

        Which has been re-iterated by General Mattis, former commander of CentCom,

      • Shingo
        September 25, 2013, 10:35 pm

        OK, if the CIA has predicted Israel won’t last much longer, why do you waste your time here?

        Because Israel has and will continueto inflict grave harm on Palestinians in the mean time.

    • MRW
      September 23, 2013, 8:02 am

      @Danaa,

      Won’t be two decades. It will happen before 2020.

      This was a beaute.

      Palestinians should speak to their conquerors and oppressors in a third language as a form of protest. I believe most israelis have the necessary rudimentary knowledge of English, though here and there, for the less educated, sign language may be needed. Bonus: it drives them nuts when palestinians speak English to them.

      And Americans will sneer, no matter what their religion, even though Americans will have a bigger problem if they don’t stop Obama’s Grand Bargain, the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) and the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TAFTA).

      And israelis will respond in kind, going ever deeper into their respective shells, comforting each other through mutual dread of the “bad goys” out there, baying for their blood.

    • libra
      September 23, 2013, 4:37 pm

      Danaa: I believe most israelis have the necessary rudimentary knowledge of English…

      Based on the example Mahane Yehude, Mondoweiss’s very own tuber trader and wholesale hasbarist, I would say their knowledges of English ranges from rudimentary to fluent depending on the time of day or, perhaps, the wind direction.

      • Taxi
        September 24, 2013, 12:15 am

        Well noted, libra.

        Soon as zios manage to get a pass into mondoweiss, say, a week later or so, their English suddenly massively improves, and they start cutting and pasting lawyerly passages.

        Did they get a lobotomy, or did they sell their mondo account on hasbara e-bay?

    • benedict
      September 23, 2013, 5:39 pm

      Dana:
      Predicting the future is a risky endeavor. You assume that in twenty years the chareidi sector will remain as it is today. I think you are ignoring the changes already evident in chareidi society. As the chareidi sector will increases in size so dos its involvement in general society. A similar process is evident in the MO sector.

      Twenty years down the line Israeli society will be different – as will the entire ME. Your expectation for economic collapse and mass secular emigration from Israel is based on shaky assumptions, to say the least. Meanwhile don’t forget that no matter how many Israelis emigrate away, 100,000 new Jews are added to Israeli population each year by sheer natural growth. And as Israel grows and strengthens the Arabs to will realize that it is a permanent feature of the ME, something that no amount of rhetorical flourishes will make go away.

      And as Arab society progresses and modernizes its members will prefer the benefits of economic development and personal progress upon the never ending old rhetoric of war and struggle. An age of cooperation will dawn in which the mistakes and injustice of previous generations will become part of a half forgotten past. Inshalla!

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 23, 2013, 6:29 pm

        benedict,
        Your rosy predictions fail to take into consideration the manically criminal character of the israeli state. No “age of cooperation” can exist with a racist, ethnoreligious Apartheid ideology like zionism.

      • benedict
        September 23, 2013, 7:47 pm

        Woody
        Plenty of cooperation exists already today on the grass root level, among private people. It’s inevitable since life is stronger than any ideology. Israeli Palestinian culture has bin permanently changed by contact with Israeli society and a similar thing is/will happen to WB population. For the better or worse there is no way back.

      • Danaa
        September 23, 2013, 10:37 pm

        Benedict – I see you a reading the kool aid about the Haredi (Not to worry, they’ll soon be drafted, we’ll yet teach them arithmetic, they’ll work – in something….they are making fewer kids already, etc etc.). Any time now they’ll start intermarrying with the secular and dance the horrah. Why – they might even dress ….a tad more fashionably? go for the sky blue of the Burqua instead of the polish black hats….what’s more, who knows, they might even learn thate birth control has its virtues?

        As for the “other” israelis, these oh-so-advanced-democracy-lovers – I am sure the once evil settlers will soon be singing kumbaya with their palestinian bretherns; the Mizrahi, will become magically integrated, their learnedness, erudition and respect for other humans shining all the brighter (especially during soccer games); the street language will become less crude, acquiring an almost civilized tone; and the government – why – it’ll be a paragon of virtue, just like now, right?

        Did you by any chance notice in your many travels to this most civilized and kindly of lands just how unbelievably crowded it is? how high the level of noise is? were you able to escape the blight and ubiquitous litter by keeping eyes fixed hard on the sky scrapers? (hey, it’s almost like Switzerland!)? and the legendary politeness – why – ten volume books can be written about that alone….

        Just explain this one little thing to me – how come every person I know there always either asks if I know a good way to get out for good, or if they are older, laments bitterly that they stayed when they had the chance to leave.

        Personally, I believe the best thing israelis can do is to intermarry with Palestinians (those who’d have them) and perhaps imbue some good manners and respect for other humans. i think that should definitely go some ways legitimizing them as real jews too since the vast majority of them have never descended from as pure a Jewish stock as some of those palestinians. In America, you know, we find that there’s nothing like mixed marriage to bolster the spirit and raise one’s economic fortunes. perhaps even improve one’s sense of humanity?

        But that last one – it’s for the day after.

      • benedict
        September 24, 2013, 5:46 pm

        Dana:

        The changes evident in chareidi society are a matter of fact not speculation. Today there are 8,000 students learning in chareidi colleges, ten years ago the term Chareidi College didn’t even exist. These changes are real. They undercut your pessimistic projection.

        Sure, the chareidim will remain a conservative force, with traditional clothing and large families. But that, I believe, will help integrate Israel into the ME, which after all is a quit religious and traditional place.

        The rest of your post is inconsequential. Obviously you are very bitter about life in Israel, but that only reflects your personal experience, nothing more. I happen to live in a pleasant city by the name of Rechovot. I see no litter and no blight. No skyscrapers either. Not more crowded then NY or Moscow. If the level of noise becomes unbearable I always have the option of moving out to some godforsaken corner of the negev.

        Obviously the circle of people you know in Israel is extremely limited. I recommend you to broaden your perspective.

        And please just explain this one little thing to me – if the situation in Israel is as horrible as you feel why then does Israel rank year after year among the highest in the world in the level of personal satisfaction?

      • amigo
        September 25, 2013, 7:33 am

        “Obviously the circle of people you know in Israel is extremely limited. I recommend you to broaden your perspective.”Obviously the circle of people you know in Israel is extremely limited. I recommend you to broaden your perspective.Benedict to DANAA

        So says the Hasbarist from Rechovot , a beacon of ethnic and ecletic balance.

        “As of 2007, the ethnic makeup of the city was 99.8% Jewish.”

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Central_Bureau_of_Statistics

      • Danaa
        September 25, 2013, 8:18 pm

        Sorry benedict but my little town was – once – not crowded either. Nahariya was kind of nice, right on the sea shore with nary a Haredi in sight (I didn’t even know those exotic creatures existed, other than in some musty old shtetl tales (that we were forced to read through, alas) and a few cult enclaves like Meah Shearim, into which no civilized person would ever venture).

        Rehovot was not bad, I recall, if one could just hang around Weizman and not venture too far into the down and out sections. Personally, I kind of doubt you lived there much, but who’s quibbling….

        Alas, neither Nahariya, nor Tel Aviv, nor rehovot are what they once were, but that takes some looking around to notice. And I am not saying the little greek fishing villages did not undergo some changes, either. But it’s all about the pace of change, and the human element.

        As for my circle of acquaintances, yes, they could definitely use some broadening. But at least I got to know a few much improved versions right here on MW, where the company is always great (those selected pretend israeli resident notables and hasbara machinations, of which you are one, exempted from the pleasure. Not saying you are bad just not who you pretend to be. Pretense is a hard act to carry and the strain kind of shows).

        Anyways, people can live where they please. I can see why you don’t visit South Tel Aviv much (why would you – no one goes there if they can help it) and probably not the beaches of Nethanya either, on a crowded saturday. We humans, when we are lucky, get to vote with our feet. Yet, here you are, feet, keyboard, top coat and all, hanging out with the likes of me. Now that opens the door to some serious questions, doesn’t it…

      • benedict
        September 26, 2013, 6:44 pm

        Danaa:

        I find your deep disdain of chareidim surprising. After all, chareidim mostly don’t serve in the army, refuse out of principle to participate in the government cabinet, and by definition are non-Zionist. Thus they are exempted from most accusations of MW commentators against Israeli society.

        As for the chareidim’s conservatism and religiosity that makes them much more similar to Palestinian society than any other sector in Israel. I am sure that a Palestinian from El halil or Nablus will feel much more comfortable in Meah shearim then in promiscuous and semi-nude Tel aviv. Your comment that the men and women of Meah shearim are “uncivilized” is quit repulsive.

        I am not a pretended Israeli. As I write these words I am sitting (actually laying) in my house in Rechovot listening to the music of second Hakafot coming from a nearby synagogue. As for south Tel aviv of course I visit there quit often (about once a week). That’s where Tel aviv’s central bus station is located. I take the 201 Egged bus to get there whenever the car is by my wife. Yes, it is a slummy area, as are many similar areas in Paris or NY.

        As for going to the beach I agree with you that the netanya beach can get a tad crowded. That’s why I prefer the much emptier beach of south Ashkelon (within the national park), or even better the Nitzan beach right up close to the gaza border.

        I did notice that you evaded my previos question – if the situation in Israel is as horrible as you feel why then does Israel rank year after year among the highest in the world in the level of personal satisfaction?

      • benedict
        September 26, 2013, 6:55 pm

        Taxi:

        As painful as it is you must realize that Israel is here to stay. No wishful thinking/revenge fantasy will change that fact. Learn to live with it. The idea that 6 million Israeli Jews are going to somehow disappear (puf!!) is one of the most insidious fallacies in ME thinking. Forget about it. It won’t happen. If that’s what your thinking is based upon I urgently recommend you to consider plan B.

        Your leaders have been promising to destroy Israeli society for decades. Its time you realize they simply can’t deliver. Meanwhile it’s your societies that are collapsing – not ours.

        And even if you somehow manage to reduce tel aviv to rubble. So what? How will that advance your cause? Beirut was reduced to rubble during your civil war. Yet today I hear it is a flourishing city. Same will be with tel aviv.

      • benedict
        September 26, 2013, 6:56 pm

        Amigo:

        This is just hilarious. I am now accused of being a “hasbaratist”. And why? Because I dared express an opinion different of danaa. Since when is everybody supposed to think like danaa?

        Yes, the percentage of non-jews in Rechovot is about the same as the percentage of Jews in Um el fakhem, Jaser a zarka, Taybe or Abu gosh. So what? Does that mean I cannot know people that don’t live in my community?

      • Taxi
        September 27, 2013, 2:39 am

        Benedict

        As painful as it is you must realize that APARTHEID Israel is NOT here to stay. No wishful thinking/revenge fantasy against Arabs will change that fact. Learn to live with it. The idea that 10 million Palestinians are going to somehow disappear (puf!!) is one of the most insidious fallacies in zionist thinking. Forget about it. It won’t happen. If that’s what your thinking is based upon I urgently recommend you to consider plan B.

        Israel will be finished either in war – or in peace time: it will be swallowed up by the regional Arab majority down the line of time.

        “Your leaders have been promising to destroy Israeli society for decades”
        WTF dude, are you so deaf, blind and dense that you think my leaders have not actually been paying for isreal’s violent expansionism?! If they were not paying, there would most certainly be no israel, and no fascist, arrogant benedict trolling on mondoweiss.

        What we know about the lebanese people is that they are very good at rebuilding. What we know about israelis is that they’re obese cowards who hide in luxury shelters soon as they hear a firecracker, then take the first flight back to wherever the hell they came from when the coast is clear.

      • Shingo
        September 27, 2013, 3:13 am

        As painful as it is you must realize that Israel is here to stay. No wishful thinking/revenge fantasy will change that fact.

        That’s far from certain. No one predicted the fall of the USSR, but when it came, it came swiftly. Israel is based on an unsustainable model – economically, socially, geopolitically, and demographically. These aspects could all converge into a perfect storm and most likely, will.

        Your leaders have been promising to destroy Israeli society for decades.

        No, that’s been more the product of a paranoid and over active Israeli imagination, and domestic political ploy to keep the population on edge.

        Beirut was reduced to rubble during your civil war. Yet today I hear it is a flourishing city. Same will be with tel aviv.

        No it won’t. The Lebanese population are much more used to hardship and conflict that the fragile Israelis, for whom a proverbial broken nail hails the return to 1939. That is why so many Israelis still have a plan B in the form holding on or applying for foreign passports

      • Shingo
        September 27, 2013, 3:21 am

        if the situation in Israel is as horrible as you feel why then does Israel rank year after year among the highest in the world in the level of personal satisfaction?

        What do you mean? They don’t even rank in the top 10 and Israelis and leaving the country at a greater rate than new immigrants are arriving.

        In fact, Israel has become so undesirable that the number of Jews in Germany is close to the population that existed there before the Holocaust.

      • Taxi
        September 24, 2013, 12:22 am

        Benedict,

        What – no mention of zionists paying war reparations with cherry on top to the Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, Egptians, Iraqis, Sudanese?

        Man, yours is about the most out of touch “prediction” I’ve ever come across. You just don’t get it: the criminal zionist state HAS NO INTENTION OF LIVING IN PEACE. And its neighbors have no intention of either forgetting or “half” forgetting the war crimes committed against them.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 24, 2013, 2:58 am

        @Taxi: don’t open Pandora’s box since Egypt and Iraq won’t be happy to read your suggestion for reparations for the wars and properties left by refugees. Meanwhile, enjoy the cherry.

      • benedict
        September 24, 2013, 4:34 am

        Taxi

        I’m an Israeli, I live in Israel and what I see around me does not conform to your notions. People, both Jews and Arabs, definitely want to live in peace.
        As for paying compensation – 20 years down the road I am not sure that the countries you mentioned will even exist in their current form. Everything changes.

      • Taxi
        September 24, 2013, 6:12 pm

        benedict,

        Enjoy your delusions while you can.

      • Taxi
        September 24, 2013, 6:17 pm

        Mahane,

        Don’t you worry about Egypt and Iraq – you just worry about your reparations to the Palestinians.

      • benedict
        September 24, 2013, 6:31 pm

        time will tell who of us has delusions, taxi.

      • Eurosabra
        September 24, 2013, 6:36 pm

        Again, Taxi, given that you envision Hezbollah rocket-inflicted death for all of Tel Aviv, I am reassured by my daily contact with Palestinians, and their realism, kindness, pragmatism and sanity compared to people like you indiscriminately thirsting for vengeance. Given the blanket amnesty proffered to Lebanese by themselves by the Ta’if Accords, it is a little rich that you want both reparations from and blood vengeance against Israel, which is clouding the intelligibility of your discourse a bit. And this from someone who knows the history and would agree about the wrong-headedness of almost everything Israel has done in Lebanon since 1948. טוב למות בעד ארצינו, however.

      • Shingo
        September 24, 2013, 9:20 pm

        don’t open Pandora’s box since Egypt and Iraq won’t be happy to read your suggestion for reparations for the wars and properties left by refugees.

        I think when you factor in the fact that Israel started the wars with Egypt (the ultimate war crime) and that the US attacked Iraq largely for Israel’s sake (another war crime) they won’t mind one bit.

      • Taxi
        September 25, 2013, 3:34 am

        You’re the delusional one already, benedict. Thinking you can just gloss over the ongoing Nakba with fake peace sentiments. Typical israeli behavior – disgusting!

        You will remember me when tel aviv and other monstrous israelis cities are in rubble in the next war.

      • Taxi
        September 25, 2013, 3:45 am

        “people like you indiscriminately thirsting for vengeance”

        It’s YOUR problem if you’re confusing justice for “vengeance”!

        And I bet my farm you’ve no authentic friendship with a single Palestinian. So stfu – you do not have permission to speak on their behalf, mister colonial!

        And why are you adding crappy messages in hebrew? You think hebrew is a universal language that everyone understands? You think you’re being clever here? You think I’m gonna go to google-translate for an interpretation? LOL! I got NO INTEREST in hebrew anything – no offense to nice hebrews out there, but like most of the world, hebrew and israel are NOT the center of my universe.

        Astonishing how many zionists consider themselves as part of the civilized world, and not the antithesis of civilized thinking and behavior. Your global reputation as criminal rogues is well deserved.

  10. DICKERSON3870
    September 22, 2013, 7:40 pm

    RE: The Palestinian uprising in 2000 had many positive consequences: It led to the first statement by an American president calling for a Palestinian state and a similar pledge by Israeli PM Ariel Sharon– a dramatic change from Oslo’s declaration of “some form of limited autonomy.” ~ Weiss

    MY COMMENT: Words, just “soothing words”! Shouldn’t we judge Israel by its actions (continued settlement and repression) rather than just its “soothing words”*?!?! Likewise, shouldn’t we judge the United States by its actions (continued support for, and enabling of, Israel’s settlement and repression) rather than its words?!?!

    * RECENTLY IN THE NEWS:

    [EXCERPT] Obama administration officials are secretly conducting behind-the-scenes talks with Israel, the United States’ closest ally with huge influence over American policies, in a bid to reassure Tel Aviv that Washington is not falling for Iran’s charm offensive, the New York Times reported Saturday.
    According to the report, in private talks American officials have expressed that the White House is still suspicious of Iran’s nuclear programme and has promised Israel that the US will judge Iran by its action and not just by the soothing words of its moderate president, Hassan Rohani, who has been trying to ally concerns over the programme which Iran’s says is for peaceful purposes. . .

    SOURCE – http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/international/22-Sep-2013/us-to-judge-iran-by-actions-not-words

    • DICKERSON3870
      September 23, 2013, 3:04 am

      P.S. RE: “According to the report, in private talks American officials have expressed that the White House . . . has promised Israel that the US will judge Iran by its action and not just by the soothing words of its moderate president, Hassan Rohani . . .” ~ recently in the news (from above)

      SEE: “Is the Iranian President Sincere in Wanting a Nuclear Deal?”, Posted By Stephen M. Walt, ForeignPolicy.com, 9/20/13

      [EXCERPT] . . . In fact, the United States and Iran are facing a classic problem in international relations (and other forms of bargaining): Given that an adversary could be bluffing or dissembling, how do you know when a seemingly friendly gesture is sincere? Political scientist Robert Jervis explored this issue in depth in “The Logic of Images in International Relations” (1970) and drew a nice distinction between “signals” (i.e., actions that contain no inherent credibility) and “indices,” which he defined as “statements or actions that carry some inherent evidence that the image projected is correct.”
      More recently, this basic idea was resurrected in economics (and borrowed by IR scholars) in the notion of a “costly signal.” Unlike “cheap talk,” a costly signal is an action that involves some cost or risk for the sender and therefore is one that the sender would be unlikely to make if they didn’t really mean it. A classic example was Anwar Sadat’s 1977 offer to fly to Jerusalem and speak directly to the Israeli Knesset in search of a peace deal. Because this move was obviously a risky step for Sadat (who was condemned throughout the Arab world), his Israeli counterparts had good reason to believe that his desire for peace was genuine.
      So should we take Rouhani’s overtures seriously? I think we should. As noted above, the possibility that Iran is genuinely interested in a deal is inherently credible, because we have in fact been squeezing the Iranians quite hard. To repeat: Isn’t what they are now doing exactly what we’ve been trying to achieve? Equally important is that Iran has taken a wide range of actions that were not cost-free. . .

      ENTIRE COMMENTARY – http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/09/20/is_rouhani_sincere_iran_nuclear_deal

  11. DICKERSON3870
    September 22, 2013, 8:04 pm

    RE: For more militant Palestinian leaders, who never believed in the peace process, the lesson was clear: “Not an inch of Palestinian land will be liberated,” Mousa Abu Marzook, deputy head of Hamas’s political bureau, told me, “while Israelis feel that controlling it exacts few costs.” ~ from a piece tilted “The Third Intifada Is Inevitable” in the New York Times, June 2012

    AN INTERESTING DOCUMENTARY: Terror’s Advocate (L’Avocat de la terreur), 2007, NR, 137 minutes
    Director Barbet Schroeder’s documentary explores the life and career of controversial French lawyer Jacques Vergès, who gained notoriety for defending Nazi butcher Klaus Barbie and numerous terrorists, including Algerian café bomber Djamila Bouhired. By examining Vergès’s sensational court cases and his personal ties to terrorism, the unsettling film reveals hidden connections among the world’s terrorist networks.
    Cast: Jacques Vergès, Abderrahmane Benhamida, Bachir Boumaâza, Isabelle Coutant-Peyre, Lionel Duroy, Hans-Joachim Klein, Magdalena Kopp, Anis Naccache, Martine Tigrane
    Director: Barbet Schroeder
    Genres: Foreign, Foreign Documentaries, France, French Language, Foreign Regions, Foreign Languages
    Language: French (with Engish subtitles)
    This movie is: Cerebral, Controversial
    Netflix format: DVD
    Netflix listing – http://dvd.netflix.com/Movie/Terror-s-Advocate/70085588
    Internet Movie Database – http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1032854/
    TRAILER: TERRORS ADVOCATE – “Jaw-Dropping” NY Times [VIDEO, 02:11] – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAqhvkUr-8g

    P.S. Although I support nonviolent civil disobedience in certain instances, I strongly oppose the use of violence except in the case of legitimate self-defense (where serious bodily injury or death is imminent).

    • DICKERSON3870
      September 23, 2013, 12:21 am

      P.P.S.
      International Terrorism Since 1945: Early Israeli Terrorism [VIDEO, 24:01] – http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x10dllw_international-

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 23, 2013, 10:14 am

        @DICKERSON3837: Thanks for the link to the video about the early Israeli terrorism. How do you describe an act in which a Palestinian enters bus in Tel-Aviv, blows himself and kills 15 people including children?

      • Denis
        September 23, 2013, 5:26 pm

        Mahane: How do you describe an act in which a Palestinian enters bus in Tel-Aviv, blows himself and kills 15 people including children?

        Payback.

      • Shingo
        September 23, 2013, 8:19 pm

        How do you describe an act in which a Palestinian enters bus in Tel-Aviv, blows himself and kills 15 people including children?

        Terrorism obviously. Those attacks ended almost a decade ago. Israeli terror continues unabated

      • DICKERSON3870
        September 23, 2013, 9:33 pm

        RE:“How do you describe an act in which a Palestinian enters bus in Tel-Aviv, blows himself and kills 15 people including children?” ~ MahaneYehude1

        MY REPLY: Assuming that the target was Israeli civilians (including children), I would describe it as a clear case of terrorism.

      • Eva Smagacz
        September 24, 2013, 4:53 am

        Mahane:
        You asked: “How do you describe an act in which a Palestinian enters bus in Tel-Aviv, blows himself and kills 15 people including children?”
        Chillingly cruel, and incredibly courageous military action on the enemy territory.
        As opposite to an act in which some Jewish maiden on outskirts of Sderot presses a button on a keyboard, in between doing her nails, and drone, in Gaza, blows the house and kills several people, including children, which is merely chillingly cruel.

      • DICKERSON3870
        September 24, 2013, 3:36 pm

        P.S. ANOTHER CLEAR CASE OF TERRORISM: Last week marked the 65th anniversary of the killing of UN mediator Folke Bernadotte, by the rightwing Zionist militia the Stern Gang, at a checkpoint in Jerusalem. No one has ever been charged with the crimes, which included the murder of Bernadotte’s French aide. – http://mondoweiss.net/2013/09/bernadotte-committed-palestinian.html

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 23, 2013, 10:56 am

        @DICKERSON3837: Honestly, did you watch the video you sent in your last link (Israeli Terrorism)? If not, I strongly recommend you to watch it.

      • DICKERSON3870
        September 23, 2013, 9:36 pm

        RE: “Honestly, did you watch the video you sent in your last link (Israeli Terrorism)?” ~ MahaneYehude1

        MY REPLY: Yes, but I plan on watching it again.

      • DICKERSON3870
        September 24, 2013, 2:59 am

        P.S. A LIBRARY OF CONGRESS VIDEO – The First Modern Jew: Spinoza and the History of an Image
        Daniel B. Schwartz discusses his new book, “The First Modern Jew: Spinoza and the History of an Image.”
        Speaker Biography: Daniel B. Schwartz is an assistant professor of history at George Washington University. He specializes in modern Jewish and European intellectual and cultural history.
        VIDEO (1:07:49) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwrCeB1rPNI

  12. Talkback
    September 23, 2013, 10:25 am

    Israel’s violence in occupied Palestine in 2013 so far:

    West Bank:
    14 killed

    Israel’s WEEKLY [!] average violence in the West Bank:
    7 settler related violence (266 in 2013, 359 in 2012)
    14 structures demolished (524 in 2013, 604 in 2012)
    23 people displaced (862 in 2013, 886 in 2012)
    76 search and arrest operations
    81 injured (3010 injured in 2013, 3031 in 2012)

    Gaza:
    50 injured and 4 killed in 2013 (1829 injured and 58 killed in 2012)
    1101 weekly average imported truckloads instead of 2807 before blockade
    5 weekly average exported truckloads instead of 240 before blockade
    http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_protection_of_civilians_weekly_report_2013_09_19_english.pdf

  13. yonah fredman
    September 23, 2013, 10:26 pm

    It is fair enough for Phil Weiss to praise the 2nd intifada for its being a goad against complacency and towards political movement. But when he condemns the hawkish statements of young Israeli Jews and labels them North Koreans because of this, then he is ignoring another affect of the 2nd intifada: the traumatic effect on people who were young when it took place. Someone who is 19 years old today was 8 years old at the height of the 2nd intifada’s violence (which was March of 2002.) For Jerusalemites, the intifada was a daily scare and left its scars. That 8 year old was scared to go on buses or to go to the pizzeria. He was warned to call his parents every time a bomb went off to assure them he was safe. Of course when that 8 year old turns 19, this experience colors his political opinions.

    But Phil Weiss only knows how to praise the good effects of the violence, not to recognize the ill effects of the violence. No, these 19 year olds are North Koreans, closed off to the world and therefore stupid in their politics. No, Phil Weiss, the intifada may prove that violence pays, but violence also costs and one of the costs is the scars it left on those who were young during the violence and now face the world with that knowledge as part of their personal history. That also is part and parcel of the violence of the past and it will be part and parcel of the violence of the future. It is much too easy to label those young adults as North Koreans rather than to remember that along with shattering the complacency of certain politicians, the intifadeh shattered the belief in peace or peaceful means in those who were very young at the time and still have not had the time to accrue countering experiences to develop a more nuanced politics. Meanwhile you might consider developing a more nuanced attitude towards young Israeli Jews. Scratch that. It won’t happen. You’re too busy being bored by American Jews and dissing the yokels over there.

    • Donald
      September 25, 2013, 5:22 pm

      That’s a very good point about the effects of violence–I hope you get every bit as agitated if someone speaks about Israel acting in self defense against the Palestinians, because everything you say (which is all true) applies many times over to their acts of “self-defense”. We in the West hear people praising the virtues of Western acts of violence in the mainstream far far more often than we ever hear people like Phil Weiss praising the intifada.

  14. Elliot
    September 24, 2013, 6:57 pm

    People, both Jews and Arabs, definitely want to live in peace.
    Unfortunately, reality continues to prove that “wanting peace” is not enough to bring about peace.
    What sacrifices are you as an Israeli willing to make to Palestinians to bring about peace? Giving up settlements? Israel’s discriminatory laws against Israel’s Palestinians? The government’s Jew-only cabinet?

    • MahaneYehude1
      September 26, 2013, 4:32 am

      @Elliot: Many Israelis willing to make the sacrifices you mentioned, including Independent Palestinian state which means giving up settlements. After peace agreement and building trust between nations, I believe a natural process would begin and the Israeli Palestinians would integrate completely in the Israeli society (a process that already started) and we see many non-Jews in the cabinet.

      Now, what sacrifices the Palestinians and Arab countries willing to make for peace?

      • Shingo
        September 26, 2013, 9:26 pm

        any Israelis willing to make the sacrifices you mentioned, including Independent Palestinian state which means giving up settlements.

        You’re fond of making broad, sweeping and vague generalizations about “many Israelis”, which is entirely meaningless. Unless the majority of Israelis want this, it matters not what you consider to be “many”

        After peace agreement and building trust between nations, I believe a natural process would begin and the Israeli Palestinians would integrate completely in the Israeli society (a process that already started) and we see many non-Jews in the cabinet.

        This is the old apartheid hasbara trope of putting the cast before the horse. There will never be peace before Israel ends the occupation, which is why Israeli propagandists keep insisting that peace has to come before justice – they know it will never happen.

        Now, what sacrifices the Palestinians and Arab countries willing to make for peace?

        Palestinians have already given up 50% of the territory allotted to them under the partition for peace. Israel wants more, so it’s clear it is Israel that is standing in the way of peace.

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