A lynching by another name would be a political murder

Israel/Palestine
on 112 Comments

Two weeks ago I saw the thrilling production of Julius Caesar at St Anne’s Warehouse in Brooklyn. The actors are all women; and the image of the show the company highlights at its website is of Harriet Walter as Brutus, wearing red gloves. Brutus and the other senator/assassins put on those gloves to show that they’ve washed their hands in Caesar’s blood.

It’s an arresting image; and the New York Times’s Sara Krulwich made a photo of the actresses wearing those gloves, which ran with the Times review.

Sara Krulwich picture of senator assassins in Julius Caesar production

Sara Krulwich picture of senator assassins in Julius Caesar production

The scene reminded me of an exchange I had with Scott Roth in Ramallah earlier this year. We were talking about the famous incident during the second intifada when a Palestinian mob carried away two Israeli soldiers who were being held by authorities and murdered them, and some stained their hands in the soldiers’ blood. The incident is generally called a “lynching” in the Israeli press, and it figures in two books by Israelis arguing that Palestinians are not partners for peace.

‘”For the Israeli public, that was the moment when the peace process with Arafat died. A lynching inside a police station became the symbol, for Israelis, of Arafat’s real intentions,” Yossi Klein Halevi writes in his new book Like Dreamers. The Ramallah "lynching" of 2000

The Ramallah “lynching” of 2000

While Yaacov Lozowick writes in Right to Exist:

[T]wo reservists who mistakenly entered Ramallah, where Arafat has his headquarters, were lynched by a mob in the center of town.  The purportedly wild and uncontrollable mob had the presence of mind to confiscate the film from all of the cameramen present, except for an Italian who smuggled out video images of the killers exultantly bathing their hands in Jewish blood.  It was a deeply shocking illustration of the savage hatred of the enemy we had thought we were making peace with:  say what you like about Israeli policies, we could not think of a single case where Jews washed their hands in the blood of their enemies.”

In Ramallah, Roth made the point that while horrific, the “lynching” was not actually extraordinary: it is not all that unusual for political militants to defile the bodies of their enemies. The history of Algerian independence, for instance, is littered with grotesque mutilations of bodies. I just read Ted Morgan’s book. The French tortured Algerians with electricity applied to their genitals and threw people out of airplanes. The revolutionaries cut off the sexual parts of political victims and stuffed them in their mouths.

Supporters of Israel have sought to argue that Palestinian resistance is in a different category from other forms of resistance. And that Israelis are specially moral. As Lozowick writes:

“[The] need to account for their actions in a way that shows a decent respect for the opinions of mankind is one of the things that distinguishes the Jews from their enemies, who observe no morality at all in waging war and show no compunction in twisting the truth to their ends.”

In Julius Caesar, the senator-assassins justify their actions by itemizing Caesar’s abuses of power. Here’s what Shakespeare had Brutus say, to explain the bloodying:

Stoop, Romans, stoop,
And let us bathe our hands in Caesar’s blood
Up to the elbows, and besmear our swords.
Then walk we forth, even to the marketplace,
And waving our red weapons o’er our heads
Let’s all cry, “Peace, freedom, and liberty!”

112 Responses

  1. pabelmont
    October 31, 2013, 1:21 pm

    Good. OK for Shakespeare (and perhaps for Brutus et al) but not OK for (perhaps a few) Palestinians (on whose behalf the ENTIRE peace process was deemed null and void by excuse-hungry Israelis who probably hadn’t intended to make peace anyhow).

    “[The] need to account for their actions in a way that shows a decent respect for the opinions of mankind is one of the things that distinguishes the Jews from their enemies, who observe no morality at all in waging war and show no compunction in twisting the truth to their ends.”

    Following the advice of Kissinger, whose advice they certainly did not need in this matter, Israel has not sought the “decent respect of the opinions of mankind” in their actions (as snipers shot kids throwing rocks that couldn’t even reach the snipers, as soldiers broke the bones of Palestinians, as Israelis ushered Lebanese murderers into Sabra and Shatilla, as * * *), but by keeping reporters away from the action.

    And by seeing to it that their supporters in the USA suppressed as far as possible American knowledge of “GOLIATH” .

    Israel wants the respect without the cost of moderating their actions to deserve it. The BIG LIE and its cousin the BIG SILENCE are the weapon of choice against the American people (very much including the American Jewish public).

  2. Shmuel
    October 31, 2013, 1:42 pm

    “[The] need to account for their actions in a way that shows a decent respect for the opinions of mankind is one of the things that distinguishes the Jews from their enemies.”

    When I was in the Israel army, I heard of cases of Israeli soldiers cutting off the ears of dead enemy fighters in Lebanon, as “souvenirs”. The person who told me the story (an officer in a very sensitive position) said that she had actually seen one of these “trophies”. I found it especially disturbing that this officer found the whole thing incredibly funny, and that she described the severed organ as “cute”.

    • yrn
      October 31, 2013, 1:57 pm

      Shmuel
      Accepting your Delusional story is like accepting the stories of Gilad Atzmon in the Israeli Army.

      • Shmuel
        October 31, 2013, 2:05 pm

        your Delusional story

        And you would know that how? Because “that’s what distinguishes the Jews from their enemies”? Kind of a circular argument, no?

      • Shmuel
        October 31, 2013, 2:32 pm

        Is Tali Lipkin-Shahak (journalist and wife of former Chief of Staff Amnon Lipkin-Shahak) also delusional? How about General Uri Sagi?

        link to archive.is
        (Hebrew)

        Lipkin-Shahak tells of one case. My source said there were more. It was treated within the army as a “public relations” issue. The soldiers who got caught were given a slap on the wrist (my source said they were “great guys”) and the whole thing was hushed up, with the cooperation of the military correspondents.

      • yrn
        October 31, 2013, 3:58 pm

        No because there are Idiot’s and and psycho’s even in the Israeli army. and you push it with your Atzmon kind of stories flavors’ .
        Next time add “Tasty too” to make it more Delusional.
        The issue was known to the public and there was not even one that was not shocked from this incident.

      • Shmuel
        October 31, 2013, 4:50 pm

        No because there are Idiot’s and and psycho’s even in the Israeli army.

        That was Phil’s point (and mine) — one which Lozowick refuses to admit.

        The issue was known to the public and there was not even one that was not shocked from this incident.

        Oh, I get it. The story itself was not delusional (at least not after I provided a link), but the very idea that an Israeli officer in an important position would express approval? Which Israel are you living in? Talk about delusional.

      • Cliff
        October 31, 2013, 4:51 pm

        Yrn,

        I doubt even you know what you’re babbling about.

        Shmuel said that Israeli soldiers collected the ears of dead Lebanese fighters.

        You immediately dismissed his comment w/ a non-sequitur about Gilad Atzmon.

        What the hell does Gilad Atzmon have to do with Shmuel’s time in the army and hearing first-hand another Israeli soldier’s confession?

      • Elliot
        October 31, 2013, 5:00 pm

        yrn –
        When I was in Israel, I heard a story from a combat soldier of soldiers in his unit who, while serving in South Lebanon did something similar. After a deadly exchange of fire with Palestinian gunman, one IDF soldier pulled the pin out of a live, hand grenade and put it inside the mouth of a dead “terrorist”.
        I have no reason to doubt that the story was true. It was told to me in a matter-of-factly way. Like it was a science experiment.

      • thankgodimatheist
        October 31, 2013, 10:18 pm

        Sorry yarn but they were not just few bad apples. The massacres of 1948 for example, were systematic and they were gruesome. The survivors’ accounts over yours and your likes any minute of the day. Now tell me there were no massacres committed in 1948 or ever and you’d perfectly fit the definition of a bot which, given your flabbergasting comments shows that you are.

      • Cliff
        October 31, 2013, 3:18 pm

        yrn,

        You are no different from a Holocaust Denier.

      • thankgodimatheist
        October 31, 2013, 9:18 pm

        Look here yarn! Whom are you trying to fool but yourself? There are first hand accounts, oral and written (that I also heard from my mother who was friends with many Palestinian women refugees who survived the massacres in 1948) of Jewish troops eviscerating pregnant women ALIVE* with their bayonets. I somehow always doubted my mother’s story as maybe a bit of an exaggeration until I saw it related in books documenting the oral history of Palestinian survivors. The barbarism of those troops was legendary. Even Uri Avnery himself who was a soldier then admitted such actions actually did take place.

      • Annie Robbins
        November 1, 2013, 1:20 pm

        that was also recorded by the red cross tgia, i read it in their archives once.

      • yrn
        November 1, 2013, 7:30 pm

        matheist
        Propaganda Stories are pathetic
        If you refer to Uri Avnery read some evidence.

        Uri Avnery.
        “The goal : Damascus ”
        Six Day War Uri Avnery ” strike Syria or get her immediate surrender , would constitute a clear admission and one – cut policy defeat ”
        This war – must not be completed without decisive action against Syria that Damascus is caused by war. Damascus is developed by malicious password ” popular war of liberation .” Damascus is sent assassins and saboteurs to make the lives of Israeli citizens hell.
        Damascus is the card she used the hatred anti – Israel to acquire the crown of leadership in the Arab world for a small country is weak, divided and torn . Damascus would drag Gamal Abdel – Nasser crazy adventure of the last three weeks . Will it be now the only exit from it clean ?

        It would be absurd unsurpassable . Absurdly dangerous ( … ) We never wanted this war, imposed on us by force mainly Syria ‘s actions . There is a matter of common sense . If Damascus government it will not break the Arab world itself .

        link to nrg.co.il

      • thankgodimatheist
        November 2, 2013, 10:37 pm

        What evidence did you provide (by citing Avnery) that my stories were propaganda? You took the tangent of Avnery’s name to talk about something entirely different, Syria. Pardon me a rhetorical question but have you no shame or are you just assuming that everyone is as stupid as you are and cannot see diversion tactics at work?

  3. Woody Tanaka
    October 31, 2013, 2:35 pm

    I’m confused. The israelis are at war with the Palestinian people, as they’ve demonstrated for decades. They also refuse to abide by any of the laws of war in their dealings with the Palestinian people. Here, two soldiers are captured and are given the same kind of not-in-accordance-with-the-laws-of-war treatment that they dish out to the Palestinian people in their war against them. On what basis do the israelis believe that they should have been treated better than the way the israelis treat their opponents??? If the israelis believe it is okay to use snipers to kill children and farmers, burn them with white phosphorus, use bombs and poison to kill anyone they want, around the world, murder children by dropping 2000 lb. bombs on their apartment complexes, etc., etc., etc., etc., on what basis do they complain that these two active duty soldiers, participating in the generations-long war against Palestine, were KIA’d??

    • MahaneYehude1
      October 31, 2013, 4:47 pm

      Woody, your comments (the current and the former about the prisoners) are very cruel.

      • Bumblebye
        October 31, 2013, 6:40 pm

        What’s cruel about it Mahane? The unvarnished truth?

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 1, 2013, 3:24 am

        @Bumblebye: What’s cruel about them? Please, read again the two comments of Woody (and my original comment about the prisoners) and answer the question by yourself. Here is the second comment:
        link to mondoweiss.net

      • Pamela Olson
        October 31, 2013, 9:18 pm

        A comment can never be as cruel as what Israel ACTUALLY DOES to innocent people, and then turn around and feign outrage — OUTRAGE! — when Palestinians do something relatively mild by comparison.

        (Only two were killed, both were uniformed combatants, etc., though of course they should not have been killed after they were neutralized — much like the two Palestinian prisoners mentioned in The Gatekeepers shouldn’t have been murdered after they were in custody, and several more Palestinian prisoners shouldn’t have been shot at point blank range after they were neutralized, and Sharon shouldn’t have helped the Phalange murder thousands of innocents in Sabra and Chatila, and…)

        But you and other Israel apologists fail to mention that in the first two weeks of the second Intifada, Israeli forces killed sixty-eight Palestinians, including fifteen children, and injured a thousand more. Twelve Palestinian-Israelis were also killed. One of them was a well-known seventeen-year-old peace activist named Aseel Asleh, killed by a shot to the neck at point-blank range.

        In those same two weeks, Palestinians killed three Israeli soldiers and two civilians.

        That’s when the second Intifada was born. The first suicide bombing didn’t take place until six months later. By that time more than three hundred Palestinians had been killed, including ninety-one children (half of whom were killed by gunfire to the head).

        In the same period, fourteen Israelis were killed in Israel and fortynine were killed in the West Bank and Gaza, one a child.

        None of it’s good. But it’s a hell of a lot more complicated than, “Look at those savage Palestinian killers.”

        I could go on, but that’s a bit to chew on for now.

        You tell me what’s cruel.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 1, 2013, 3:29 am

        @Pamela: “You tell me what’s cruel”

        The cruelty is the simple fact that you loss the ability to see the sufferings from both sides. Also, please, read my last paragraph I wrote in the original comment:

        “As I wrote in many of my comments: Both peoples, Palestinians and Israelis, are victims of this conflict. There is no much heroism in murdering innocent people and no murderer promotes freedom and independence, only more hatred and hostility”
        link to mondoweiss.net

        It’s a general call, not ““Look at those savage Palestinian killers.”

      • Cliff
        November 1, 2013, 5:28 am

        Stop equivocating, potato salesman.

        You are stealing, colonizing and occupying Historic Palestine.

        There is no ‘both sides’. There’s YOU and YOUR actions and the REACTIONS to them by the indigenous Palestinian Arabs.

      • amigo
        November 1, 2013, 9:20 am

        “As I wrote in many of my comments: Both peoples, Palestinians and Israelis, are victims of this conflict.”mehane 1/2 or 3?.

        Mehane cut the nonsense.Israel is the occupier and perpetrator of war crimes.

        If Jewish Israelis or illegal settler thieves die because of Israeli policies then take that up with Israel.

        If illegal squatters die , that,s their own fault.They should never have gone to Palestine and aid and abet the illegal expansion (theft) of someones else’s
        land.

        If IDF thugs die in action, so be it.End the occupation and go home.

        To Israel proper.

        Cruel???. You joke.

      • amigo
        November 1, 2013, 3:56 pm

        “As I wrote, the Israeli occupation that I really want to see its end soon, forced upon us and is not the result of an Israeli decision to occupy the WB.”mehane

        This is where you go off the beaten track.Israel has from day one had every intention of not allowing a Palestinian State.Read the statements of your successive leaders I have provided for you below and then go read the Likud Charter and not the unbroken commitment to the goal of creating The Greater Israel.You cannot keep blaming others.The occupation is a zionist plan to give cover for stealing ALL of Palestine.Quit denying it.

        “In 1938, Ben-Gurion made it clear of his support for the “Jewish state” on part of Palestine was only as a stepping ground for a complete conquest. He wrote: “[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state–we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 107 & One Palestine Complete, p. 403) * One day after the UN vote to partition Palestine, Menachem Begin, the commander of the Irgun gang and Israel’s future Prime Minister between 1977-1983, proclaimed: “The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized …. Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.” (Iron Wall p. 25) * “”Shamir has said Israel must keep the territories in order to accommodate the immigrants. “A great aliyah [immigration],” he said, “requires a Greater Israel.”(5) He has insisted that, although Soviet Jews are not being directed to the territories, any Jew has the right to live anywhere in the land of Israel, which for most Israelis includes the territories. ”

        link to mondoweiss.net

        Note the unbroken continuity in purpose.

        Hopefully Mehane you can now start from the beginning of the story instead of the end which might help to get you out from under that mound of zionist propaganda;

      • amigo
        November 1, 2013, 4:17 pm

        Note , the link above to MW is to the Likud Charter.

      • Woody Tanaka
        November 1, 2013, 10:20 am

        “Woody, your comments (the current and the former about the prisoners) are very cruel.”

        Too bad. Your people set the ground rules. You lie in the bed you made, buddy. If you didn’t want cruelty in response, you should not have started (and continued) the cruelty in the first place.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 1, 2013, 11:05 am

        @Woody: Nothing won’t help you to discredit me. Claiming that I “lie in the bed I made” is nothing but running from the issue which is the Israeli civilians victims of the Palestinian terror that you have no ability to recognize their sufferings.

        The Ramallah lynch was a cruel event that even many Palestinians don’t want to recall and the Palestinian Authority erased all the videos taken during this event because אhey were ashamed about it (only one video photographed by Italian journalist’s was left). I sure that many Palestinians don’t think like you about the killing of innocent civilians.

      • Cliff
        November 1, 2013, 11:17 am

        The Israeli soldiers who were ‘lynched’ were not innocent civilians.

      • Woody Tanaka
        November 1, 2013, 11:59 am

        “Nothing won’t help you to discredit me.”

        This sentence is gibberish.

        “Claiming that I ‘lie in the bed I made’ is nothing but running from the issue which is the Israeli civilians victims of the Palestinian terror that you have no ability to recognize their sufferings.”

        What does “israeli civilians” have to do with this case? These were uniformed soldiers of an army which has been at war with the Palestinian people for generations.

        As for sympathy for israeli “victims,” here’s who deserves sympathy among the israeli population: Palestinian citizens of israel who have to daily face the racism of zionism; children who are under the age of majority who have no say in where their parents make them live; those who are otherwise medical incompitent (the mentally handicapped, etc.); and those who are actively working against the israeli state to end the occupation completely, back to the green line, and to bring about a fully fair and equal society in which nothing from the state is premised on the ethnoreligious background of its citizens. Everyone else — those who don the uniform of the idf terrorists, those who vote for these parties who are engaged in the occupation and ethnic cleansing of Palestine, those who favor a special place in the society for those who are Jewish — bear some degree of fault.

        “The Ramallah lynch”

        The word you are looking for is “lynching.” “Lynch” is a verb. “Lynching” is the noun.

        “was a cruel event that even many Palestinians don’t want to recall”

        I wonder whether you and your fellows ever considered how bad YOUR actions are against the Palestinians to drive them to this “cruel event.” I would think that every moral person would say, “if zionism is so evil in its application on the Palestinians that it would cause this ‘cruel event,’ then the only moral response is to abandon zionism.” Interesting that you don’t have that response.

        “the Palestinian Authority ”

        You’re surprised? The PA knows who it answers to.

        “I sure that many Palestinians don’t think like you about the killing of innocent civilians.”

        What innocent civilians? These were soldiers in a war zone who were killed by the people against whom their army has been fighting for generations.

      • Pamela Olson
        November 1, 2013, 2:53 pm

        “the Palestinian Authority erased all the videos taken during this event because אhey were ashamed about it”

        Kind of like, I don’t know, the Israeli soldiers who killed nine unarmed civilians on the Mavi Marmara and then erased all the evidence?

        The gentleman doth project too much.

      • Bumblebye
        November 1, 2013, 4:31 pm

        Mahane
        People here are trying to get you to see that the ‘terrorism’ israelis have ‘suffered’ is the Palestinian REaction to israeli brutality inflicted on them on a daily basis for simply existing! They don’t have courts that can mete out punishment in the form of prison sentences to IDF soldiers, or to politicians and businessmen who steal and build on their lands, do they?! Nor an official army (or weapons, or tanks, or fighter jets) whose actions could be measured against those of the idf when they cause ‘collateral damage’.

        And , yes it is the bed ‘you’ made as israelis. What you have was gained by terrorism in the 1940s. It was gained by state terrorism in 1967. Instead of perhaps creating a bilingual state of all its citizens out of the mandate, israel decided to be an ethnosupremacist state of hatred and loathing of the other. You’ve been reminded upteen times of the acts of sheer evil carried out by your state, as the idf, or as state supported and criminally immunised settlers, but all you can do is point to some of the reactions this may have caused. In the case of the Ramalla killings, well over a decade ago – and most defnitely not ‘innocent civilians’. In Israel, there are precious few of those. You cannot demand that we see some kind of equivalence between the actions of israel or Palestine where there is absolutely none.

      • Cliff
        November 2, 2013, 8:39 am

        @Potato salesman

        You are a concern-troll.

        If you gave a shit about ‘cruel events’ then you’d be spending more of your time criticizing your apartheid Jewish colony.

        The Ramallah ‘lynch’ was an attack on IDF soldiers.

        A real lynching took place inside Israel. Jewish KIDS lynched a Palestinian KID.

        That is what is truly cruel.

        Israel Police: Hundreds watched attempt to lynch Palestinians in Jerusalem, did not interfere
        Four minors, including one girl, arrested in connection with attack at Zion Square in which one victim was seriously injured and three others were slightly hurt.

        link to haaretz.com

  4. seafoid
    October 31, 2013, 2:52 pm

    Jews have the same wiring as everyone else, capable of soaring magnificence and dreadful cruelty and everything in between , with Israel fond of the cruel end of the spectrum.

    Israel would class even the Norwegians as barbarian if it meant more houses for
    their miserable settlers.

  5. seafoid
    October 31, 2013, 2:57 pm

    Settler colonialism always dehumanises the natives. The Aboriginals were no better than dogs, the Irish stupid, the Algerians barbaric and so on. Sad to see the jewish state resort to this sort of thing,

    • Ludwig
      October 31, 2013, 3:50 pm

      Actually Jews are native to Israel.

      • seafoid
        October 31, 2013, 5:08 pm

        Borscht originated in Safed. You can tell the so called Palestinians are alien. They never wear those furry hats. They must have come from poland.

      • Scott
        October 31, 2013, 6:04 pm

        Borscht originated in Safed. You can tell the so called Palestinians are alien. They never wear those furry hats. They must have come from poland.

        Best wry comment of the month!

      • Ludwig
        October 31, 2013, 6:21 pm

        Seafoid,

        I’m not sure what your point is, regardless of where borscht or streimels come from, Jews are native to Israel. Let’s stay on topic here.

      • bintbiba
        October 31, 2013, 7:00 pm

        :-) Touche’, seafoid.

      • talknic
        October 31, 2013, 8:26 pm

        @Ludwig “Actually Jews are native to Israel”

        Some are native to Israel. Some are native to the wider region. All Arabs are native to the region, including some in Israel.

      • RoHa
        October 31, 2013, 8:29 pm

        “Jews are native to Israel.”

        Jews who are born there are native. The rest aren’t. That’s what “native” means.

        If you are talking about the idea of “indigenous people”, Jewish mythology tells us that Jews originated with Abraham and his family, but he wasn’t a native of Palestine. He was an Iraqi.

      • gamal
        October 31, 2013, 8:44 pm

        As are Christians by the same metric and Muslims are all Hijazi’s, Buddhists all Nepali, at least to some extent. Yoga instructors? Om nama shivaaya, Koryu Uchinadi practitioners? Ossu!

        Judaism is following the dismal path of official Islam
        in the grim task of state building, I wouldn’t pray behind any state employed scholar, unless sufficiently drunk and stoned to be in an ecumenical mood and recalling that its one love.

        but what does it mean to be native? its a pretty polysemous term, being a native does not relieve one of the duty to be kind and respectful towards others, you idiot, or submit to the Law.

        Hypocrisy is my guilty pleasure. Life is sweet, if brief and unbearably intense.

      • seafoid
        November 1, 2013, 3:41 am

        “being a native does not relieve one of the duty to be kind and respectful towards others, you idiot, or submit to the Law.”

        Here are 2 ways of looking at the notion of the native

        Christy Moore
        link to youtube.com

        Gurvitz’s take on the bot view

      • gamal
        October 31, 2013, 9:12 pm

        As are Christians by the same metric and Muslims are all Hijazi’s, Buddhists all Nepali, at least to some extent. Yoga instructors? Om Namah Shivaaya, Koryu Uchinadi practitioners? Ossu!

        Judaism is following the dismal path of official Islam
        in the grim task of state building, I wouldn’t pray behind any state employed scholar, unless sufficiently drunk and stoned to be in an ecumenical mood and recalling that its One Love.

        What does it mean to be native? Its a pretty polysemous term, being a native does not relieve one of the duty to be kind and respectful towards others, you idiot, or to submit to the Law.

        Hypocrisy is my guilty pleasure. Life is sweet, if brief and unbearably intense, why compound ones problems by adding proscriptive (sorry thats for TBK who never reads me any way) hatreds to ones own burden and to that of others. As Wittgenstein convincingly points out its unwise to put knots in ones thinking, and I have seen many individuals start something as a game or ruse that eventually blossomed into madness or Wahhabism.

      • eljay
        October 31, 2013, 9:26 pm

        >> Actually Jews are native to Israel.

        To the extent that they were born in Israel, yes. Otherwise, no.

      • ErsatzYisrael
        November 1, 2013, 2:11 am

        Ludwig says:
        October 31, 2013 at 3:50 pm

        “Actually Jews are native to Israel.”

        Define “Jews”.

        Define “native”.

        “Israel” did not exist prior to 1948.

      • thankgodimatheist
        November 2, 2013, 10:59 pm

        Ludwig. The Roma people are indigenous to India. Does that give them the right to invade it if they could and expell the natives? And by this I do not necessarily mean that Jews are indigenous to Palestine except very few. And even if they were entirely that still doesn’t give them the right to come from everywhere after being away for thousands of years to claim a land once belonged to them. Where is this right inscribed anyway?

  6. Keith
    October 31, 2013, 6:42 pm

    “…the killers exultantly bathing their hands in Jewish blood. It was a deeply shocking illustration of the savage hatred of the enemy we had thought we were making peace with: say what you like about Israeli policies, we could not think of a single case where Jews washed their hands in the blood of their enemies.”

    Apparently he “looked” with eyes closed. Putting aside the butchery of the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps carried out by Israel’s Christian mercenaries under Israel’s direction, we have only to look to the Nakba. Ralph Schoenman writes: “The commander of the Haganah, Zvi Ankori, described what happened: ‘I saw cut off genitalia and women’s crushed stomachs….It was direct murder’.” (p33, “The Hidden History of Zionism,” Ralph Schoenman)

    The director of the International Red Cross in Palestine describes what he saw entering Deir Yasin: “The gang (Irgun) was wearing uniforms with helmets. All of them were young, some even adolescents, men and women, armed to the teeth: revolvers, machine-guns, and hand grenades, and also cutlasses in their hands, most of them blood-stained. A beautiful young girl with criminal eyes showed me hers dripping with blood; she displayed it like a trophy.” (p35, “The Hidden History of Zionism,” Ralph Schoenman)

  7. The Hasbara Buster
    October 31, 2013, 10:45 pm

    Lozowick claims:

    “[The] need to account for their actions in a way that shows a decent respect for the opinions of mankind is one of the things that distinguishes the Jews from their enemies, who observe no morality at all in waging war and show no compunction in twisting the truth to their ends.”

    In the Ramallah incident, the Palestinians killed soldiers who were occupying them. That they washed their hands in their blood is completely irrelevant; the sacralization of dead bodies is simply a superstition.

    (In a similar incident, in the Bus 300 affair Israeli soldiers killed two captive Palestinian fighters, crushing their heads with large stones, against the general opinion of mankind that prisoners should not be killed. The murderers were pardoned by the the President of Israel, and thus were not accountable for their action.)

    In the Zion Square lynching, on the other hand, the Jews almost killed an Arab who had done nothing to them. There was no rational motivation for the attack. Unlike the lyinching in Ramallah, where resistance to the occupation was the driving force, in the Zion Square case the driving force was hate.

    • MahaneYehude1
      November 1, 2013, 4:06 am

      @hasbara:

      “…against the general opinion of mankind that prisoners should not be killed”

      So what about the two soldiers in Ramallah? They were captured alive and were killed by beating, not by hot weapon. What is the difference between them and the bus 300 prisoners?

      • Shmuel
        November 1, 2013, 5:17 am

        So what about the two soldiers in Ramallah? They were captured alive and were killed by beating, not by hot weapon. What is the difference between them and the bus 300 prisoners?

        Setting aside the differences between mob violence (Palestinian police actually tried to protect the soldiers) and state violence, not much. That is precisely what Lozowick and most Israeli Jews don’t seem to get.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 1, 2013, 5:31 am

        @Shmuel:

        I don’t understand you (and others here) at all. look what you are doing: For palestinian violence you bring other example of violence from the Israeli side. What about “enough is enough”, Shmuel, or you just going to bring me one more example of brutal Israeli violence? Reading your (plural) comments, it seems to me that you try to justify the Palestinian violence against us, or at least, to underestimate it. “Bus 300″ was evil and “Ramallah lynch” was evil!!! enough with the evil violence and killing of innocent people!!!!

      • Talkback
        November 1, 2013, 5:46 am

        MahaneYehude1 says: “enough with the evil violence and killing of innocent people!!!!”

        So how after more than six decades of “evil violence and killing of innocent people “are you planning to keep a whole people expelled or occupied and steal their land and water?

      • Shmuel
        November 1, 2013, 6:00 am

        MY1,

        The subject of the post was the unfounded Israeli sense of moral superiority over the Palestinians. It is thus entirely relevant to bring examples of Israeli brutality – not to create equivalence where there is absolutely none (and not in Israel’s favour!), but to refute the ridiculous claims that “Arabs are barbarians” and “Jews are not like their enemies”.

        A good first step to stopping the “evil violence and killing of innocent people” would be to let go of your false sense of moral superiority.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 1, 2013, 6:06 am

        @Shmuel: I don’t no what you are talking about. Who said ““Arabs are barbarians” and “Jews are not like their enemies”? To whom do you refer when you say “A good first step to stopping the “evil violence and killing of innocent people” would be to let go of your false sense of moral superiority”?

      • Shmuel
        November 1, 2013, 6:16 am

        Who said ““Arabs are barbarians” and “Jews are not like their enemies”?

        It is the essence of Phil’s observations (including Lozowick’s comments).

        To whom do you refer when you say “A good first step to stopping the “evil violence and killing of innocent people” would be to let go of your false sense of moral superiority”?

        I was referring to you – e.g. link to mondoweiss.net

      • seafoid
        November 1, 2013, 6:18 am

        St Ehud of Barak said Israel was a villa surrounded by a jungle.
        Ovadia Yosef brought in the notion of Palestinians as animals.
        Religious Zionist schools in the OT teach similar stuff.

        Let me know if you want any links, habibi.
        Where did you get the notion that Israel was just an extension of My Little Pony?

      • Shmuel
        November 1, 2013, 6:31 am

        St Ehud of Barak said Israel was a villa surrounded by a jungle.
        Ovadia Yosef brought in the notion of Palestinians as animals.
        Religious Zionist schools in the OT teach similar stuff.

        It’s at the core of the Zionist national narrative: us and them; few and many; good and evil; moral and barbaric etc. No need to go to “religious Zionist schools in the OT”. A secular school in North Tel-Aviv will do.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 1, 2013, 6:39 am

        @Shmuel: “I was referring to you”

        Please, read my comment again (and others) and see what I wrote about our brutal and racist soldier, which I never deny there existence. After that, please, show me the Palestinian “peace now” condemns the Ramallah lynch, for instance, without ‘but you…”. I expect you, after two months I am here, to know me better. I think I know you. Thanks.

        BTW, why many times the commenters that wrote the original comments never bother themselves to answer?

      • Shmuel
        November 1, 2013, 6:42 am

        show me the Palestinian “peace now” condemns the Ramallah lynch

        Claiming moral superiority even while denying that you claim moral superiority. Hopeless.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 1, 2013, 6:47 am

        @Shmuel: “Hopeless”

        Now I agree with you – really hopeless. So let’s continue with your line “You killed, they killed, you killed, they killed”. Git Shabes.

      • seafoid
        November 1, 2013, 8:00 am

        Those 2 people were undercover soldiers sent in to execute someone. I was in Ramallah that day and the Israelis had already started the assassinations. Far too many Jews have died for YESHA.

        And I love the way you bots squeeze the last PR drop out of every interesting conflict death on your side. The Fogels must have a million mentions on line.

        You spin it to assure us that you are so civilised, you reprehensible ethnic cleansers and fellow travelers. Where’s the outrage at today’s home demolitions in East Jerusalem – 15000 people made homeless? Does the murder of one Jewish fingernail justify it all ?

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 1, 2013, 8:27 am

        “Those 2 people were undercover soldiers sent in to execute someone”

        Really?

      • Shmuel
        November 1, 2013, 8:29 am

        So let’s continue with your line “You killed, they killed, you killed, they killed”.

        Not my line — yours. I do not create false equivalences and talk about generic “evil violence” on both sides. When Zionists claim moral superiority and dehumanise Palestinians (and Arabs in general) as a barbaric other, they need to be directed to the nearest mirror.

        Shabbat shalom.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 1, 2013, 8:48 am

        Try at least to read the comments, seafoid, before you reply on them. What the problem to condemn killing innocent people from both sides? Why all of your endless calculations?

        Show me, please, where in my comments you find your accusations against me like “And I love the way you bots squeeze the last PR drop out of every interesting conflict death on your side”. I said and repeat, there are many innocent victims in this conflict, Jews and Palestinians. Each one of them is a whole world, as we say, and there is no place to always distinguish between the victims.

      • seafoid
        November 1, 2013, 9:43 am

        The soldiers were in active service so they were hardly my little pony.
        You and the rest of the bots all have the same tactics. You have zero compassion or understanding where all this is headed.

        Israel is a car crash.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 1, 2013, 11:12 am

        @seafoid: OK, so the “Those 2 people were undercover soldiers sent in to execute someone” was changed to “The soldiers were in active service” – and if yes, does it justify the brutal attack on them after they were captured alive?

        If Israel is a car crash so why do you waste your time here?

      • eljay
        November 1, 2013, 12:07 pm

        Wiki: 2000 Ramallah lynching

        I condemn the barbaric murder of those two soldiers who were being detained by P.A. authorities.

        However, that murder:
        – does not make all Palestinians immoral;
        – does not make all Israelis moral; and
        – does not justify either Israel’s typically excessive response or any of its past and ON-GOING (war) crimes, injustices and immorality.

      • seafoid
        November 1, 2013, 12:24 pm

        I want to watch the collapse in good company.

        Sent in to execute someone is on active service.
        The killings were brutal- would it have been better to blow them up with a “targeted strike” ?

        Israel killed 150 children that year . They were all lovingly murdered by TJS.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 1, 2013, 12:57 pm

        @eljay: I sure it was not so hard to condemn the barbaric murder of those two soldiers and I hope no more condemnations will be needed in the future from both sides of the conflict.

        I agree with you that this specific murder does not make all Palestinians and Israelis immoral or moral. Each event should be judged separately.

      • Annie Robbins
        November 1, 2013, 1:07 pm

        Each event should be judged separately.

        cumulatively there are 10 palestinians who die for every one israeli, or more i lost count. and palestinians are still being systematically driven from their land, and history will not be judging the ethnic cleansing of palestine as a random series of separate events anymore than the each individual death in the holocaust was judged separately. history doesn’t work like that, nor should it. it’s important to see the designs behind the overall actions, especially when they take place over decades. it’s very clear what’s going on here, obviously. you can’t have all the land for a jewish state without the ethnic cleansing. hence, a much larger crime is taking place than the individual acts you’re choosing to judge separately.

      • seafoid
        November 1, 2013, 1:15 pm

        Each event, like they all happen according to a random process .
        The sociopaths who run the show in Israel run a cruel and vindictive system that is built on extreme violence.
        And anyone who works in that system is deeply immoral. “I was only doing my job” didn’t wash at Nuremberg.

      • eljay
        November 1, 2013, 1:15 pm

        >> … I hope no more condemnations will be needed in the future from both sides of the conflict.

        I hope so, too.

        >> I agree with you that this specific murder does not make all Palestinians and Israelis immoral or moral. Each event should be judged separately.

        In some cases, events can be judged separately; in other cases, they cannot.

        By the way, I notice that you failed to address my statement that the murder of the soldiers does not justify either Israel’s typically excessive response or any of its past and ON-GOING (war) crimes, injustices and immorality.

        Surely you agree with this statement as well, yes? If you don’t agree with it, please explain why.

        Thank you.

      • Woody Tanaka
        November 1, 2013, 1:20 pm

        “I agree with you that this specific murder does not make all Palestinians and Israelis immoral or moral. Each event should be judged separately.”

        Interesting that you refused to agree with the primary point that eljay was making:

        “- does not justify either Israel’s typically excessive response or any of its past and ON-GOING (war) crimes, injustices and immorality.”

        You’re a typical zio, MY.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 1, 2013, 1:42 pm

        @Annie: For unknown reason to me, you pretend that you don’t understand me, at good or you distort my arguments, at bad.

        First of all never compare anything to the holocaust!!! Never!!! If I remember correct, it is not your first time and I ask you to stop with it.

        You repeat many time your constant lie about the “Palestinians are still being systematically driven from their land”. I asked in the past, where exactly do you see ethnic cleansing going now? But I never received answer. Demolishing illegal house after several years of discussions in court is not ethnic cleansing although you repeat it million of times. All this ethnic cleansing exists only in your imagination.

        When I say that each event should be judged separately, you know exactly what I mean. No body tries to separate the events from the whole conflict, but I think that there are events from both sides, also from the Palestinian side, that can be regarded as war crimes. The Ramallah lynch was a brutal crime, a symbol of evil that the Palestinians themselves want to forget and I know many who are ashamed of it. It was a mistake by Philip Weiss to revive this ugly symbol.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 1, 2013, 1:50 pm

        @eljay: The explanation is simple: I agree with you about your two first arguments. I can’t agree with the rest because you wrote “Israel” only. I would agree if you change the sentence and include Israeli and Palestinian war crimes. War crimes, Israeli or Palestinian, are evil and should be stop by both sides.

        Shabat Shalom.

      • Shmuel
        November 2, 2013, 6:13 am

        You repeat many time your constant lie about the “Palestinians are still being systematically driven from their land”. I asked in the past, where exactly do you see ethnic cleansing going now? But I never received answer.

        Just because you cannot see what is going on under your nose, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. Bureaucracy and security are the excuses that provide deniability (and self-delusion), yet the policies and processes are unmistakable:

        link to icahdusa.org

      • Sumud
        November 2, 2013, 8:17 am

        You repeat many time your constant lie about the “Palestinians are still being systematically driven from their land”. I asked in the past, where exactly do you see ethnic cleansing going now? But I never received answer.

        Mahaneyehude1 – Shmuel has pointed you to an excellent resource in ICAHD. I suggest you look at this issue in more depth: Jeff Halper’s book “An Israeli in Palestine” is an excellent primer on Israel’s ongoing project of ethnic cleansing through the use of apparently innocuous planning laws.

      • eljay
        November 2, 2013, 8:34 am

        >> … I can’t agree with the rest because you wrote “Israel” only. I would agree if you change the sentence and include Israeli and Palestinian war crimes.

        Your statement is both ridiculous and hypocritical:
        – Ridiculous, because you claim to be unable to condemn certain Israeli actions without having (roughly) corresponding Palestinian actions to condemn simultaneously.
        – Hypocritical, because – and I have no doubt about this – you are capable of condemning certain Palestinian actions without having (roughly) corresponding Israeli actions to condemn simultaneously.

        Moreover, I notice that you chose not to agree with the part of my comment that had no (roughly) corresponding Palestinian actions to condemn: ” … the murder of the soldiers does not justify Israel’s typically excessive response … ”

        I can conclude only that you think the murder of the soldiers did, in fact, justify Israel’s typically excessive response.

      • Donald
        November 2, 2013, 8:43 am

        MY–I agree that both sides commit war crimes and both should stop. (You, at least, go further here than one other liberal Zionist at this site, who accepts my concession that Palestinians are guilty of terrorism, but who dismisses the notion of Israeli war crimes as a propaganda term describing Israeli self defense.) But Annie and Shmuel and others are right about the bigger picture–individual Israeli crimes are part of a long process of making Israel a Jewish state and expanding its territory by expelling Palestinians.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 2, 2013, 10:11 am

        @Donald: Again, thanks for your honesty. You can read million of times in this site that Israel committed and commits war crimes but few, you among them, are brave enough to criticize the Palestinians and state that they committed and commit war crimes against us.

        About the second part of your comment, we still disagree since Israel doesn’t expel Palestinians.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 2, 2013, 10:15 am

        @eljay: Look, I am not a lawyer that smash sentences. If you think you are an honest man (or woman), what do you think about the simple idea that both of us condemn ALL the crimes and violence from both sides, Palestinian and Israeli, and finish with this issue?

      • amigo
        November 2, 2013, 11:32 am

        “First of all never compare anything to the holocaust!!! Never!!! “dictator mehane

        She didn,t.

        Read her post again and this time try using comprehension skills.

        “cumulatively there are 10 palestinians who die for every one israeli, or more i lost count. and palestinians are still being systematically driven from their land, and history will not be judging the ethnic cleansing of palestine as a random series of separate events anymore than the each individual death in the holocaust was judged separately. “Annie.

        Now mehane , show us where she compared the holocaust to anything.

      • Donald
        November 2, 2013, 12:16 pm

        ” you among them, are brave enough to criticize the Palestinians”

        It doesn’t require bravery in the US to do that. It doesn’t even require bravery at a pro-Palestinian website like this one–the majority here are critical of terrorism.

        As for expulsion, the pattern is clear. Make life sufficiently miserable and the Palestinians will leave altogether or (the Israelis hope) scale back their expectations of what they can expect. The Israelis are playing out the clock, to use an American sports idiom (I think). So long as they have the US government in their corner, they can keep taking land, pretend to negotiate and get away with it.

      • Shmuel
        November 2, 2013, 1:23 pm

        MY1,

        False. There is no equality between Jews and Palestinians in planning or before the law.

        Here are a few links to documents that explain how the bureaucracy of ethnic cleansing works.

        Over the past three decades of occupation, Israel has employed in the West Bank a policy of planning, development, and building that severely restricts construction by Palestinians while allocating broad expanses of land to establish and expand Jewish settlements. In this way, Israel has created a situation in which thousands of Palestinians are unable to obtain permits to build on their land, and are compelled to build without a permit because they have no other way to provide shelter for their families.
        link to btselem.org

        Since it is almost impossible for residents to obtain building permits on the basis of existing plans, a large number of residents in search of housing solutions have left the municipal area of Jerusalem (despite the fact that they lose their right to residence in Jerusalem and other social rights ). The vast majority of residents who have remained in Jerusalem are forced to contend with plans that do not allow for development and do not address their residential and other basic needs.
        link to bimkom.org.il

        The land reserves that surround the built-up sections of West Bank towns and villages are often designated as Area C, and Israel does not allow construction or development on these reserves. Israel thereby stifles many Area A and B communities, denying them the opportunity to develop. This is one of the contributing factors to the difficulty in obtaining lots for construction, the steep price hike in the cost of the few available plots, the dearth of open areas, and the total lack of suitable sites for infrastructure and industrial zones. If, for want of an alternative, residents of these areas build homes without permits on nearby land – owned by them but classified “Area C” – they live under the constant shadow of the threat of demolition.
        link to btselem.org

        Palestinians build illegally in Jerusalem for a variety of reasons, primary among them the fact that the ability to build legally is reserved to the few Palestinians fortunate enough to be able to receive a permit.

        Since 1967, the main tool for blocking legal Palestinian construction in East Jerusalem has been planning.  Israeli planning in East Jerusalem has almost invariably been driven by the calculus of national struggle, the goal of which is to maintain a large Israeli majority in the city.  One way Israel has tried to achieve this is by artificially putting a cap on Palestinian development.
        link to ir-amim.org.il

      • Bumblebye
        November 2, 2013, 2:32 pm

        Oh horsefeathers Mahane! So much racist, blinkered drivel in one comment! Your racist “Israeli” laws have been applied to East Jerusalem ILLEGALLY in the first instance. This is because the annexation of EJ was and is illegal. Why should Palestinians living in Palestine be forced to apply to your racist entity for the right to build in their own country?! Only for around 99% of such applications to be turned down, rejected out of hand. Because they are not from people of the right ethnicity! YOU could build illegally, and if there was nothing structurally wrong or hideous about your building, would almost certainly be granted retroactive permission. Instances abound. And even if the court told you to demolish, you wouldn’t, nor would you be forced to – you’re there, send us a piccy showing the gaping hole where Jonathan House used to be (oh, is it still standing – see what i mean?) – just as happens all over the rest of occupied Palestine for the most part. And of course it’s ethnic cleansing – Palestinian owned and built on land is being stolen all the time by the ‘nationals’ of the ‘Jewish State’ who are granted supremacy over non-Jews in both Israel and Palestine by your disgusting governments. Tens of thousands of Palestinian East Jerusalemites have been permanently banished from the city since 1967 – how is that NOT ethnic cleansing?

      • amigo
        November 2, 2013, 3:34 pm

        “If you think you are an honest man (or woman), what do you think about the simple idea that both of us condemn ALL the crimes and violence from both sides, Palestinian and Israeli, and finish with this issue?”mehane 1/2 ?

        No mehane .

        Lets compare.

        There are some 600,000 illegal Israeli squatters in the occupied territories .
        It is a War Crime for the occupying Nation ,Israel in this case to transfer it,s citizens , Israelis, (note only Jews need apply) to the territory it occupies , Palestine.

        That equals circa 100,000 War crimes committed by Israel.I have allowed for an average family size of 6 , but that will vary depending on religious background of said squatters.

        I have not even begun to tap the surface of Israel,s crimes so you had best drop the concept of condemning both sides while trying to suggest the numbers are equal.

        Israel has just announced an additional 5 to 10 thousand War crimes by approving more illegal squats in East Jerusalem.

        Go back to your potatoes mehane.You are simply in self denial and are worse than those zionists who are at least honest about their intentions and attitude to Arabs in general and especially Palestinians.

        You reek of zionist dishonesty.When I see you posting complaints about Israel,s crimes on J POST I will begin to listen to you.

      • eljay
        November 2, 2013, 3:40 pm

        >> @eljay: Look, I am not a lawyer that smash sentences.

        You are being dishonest. Like me, my sentences are very simple and straightforward. My past couple of posts do not require you to be a lawyer and they contain nothing that requires any “smashing”.

        >> If you think you are an honest man (or woman) …

        Honest man, yes.

        >> … what do you think about the simple idea that both of us condemn ALL the crimes and violence from both sides, Palestinian and Israeli, and finish with this issue?

        I think you are being dishonest. Your proposal has nothing to do with my point that the murder of those Israeli soldiers:
        – did not justify Israel’s typically excessive response; and
        – does not justify any of Israel’s past and ON-GOING (war) crimes, injustices and immorality.

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 4, 2013, 7:33 am

        @Amigo:
        How do you call the missile attacks on Israeli civilians from Gaza strip?
        How do you call the missile attacks on Israeli civilians from South Lebanon?
        How do you call the terror attacks on Israeli civilians in our cities and villages?
        How do you call the continuous incitement in the Palestinian media and schools?
        How do you call the fact the hundreds of thousands refugees were left in their miserable situation only to be used as a future obstacle to the Jewish state?

        When you start realize that the Palestinians and several Arab countries also doing war crimes against us, we can continue our discussion.

      • eljay
        November 4, 2013, 7:57 am

        >> How do you call the fact the hundreds of thousands refugees were left in their miserable situation only to be used as a future obstacle to the Jewish state?

        The fact that you deny the right of refugees to return to their homes and lands is bad enough. The fact that you reduce them to mere “obstacles” to the existence of a supremacist “Jewish State” is worse. You are, without a doubt, a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist.

        >> When you start realize that the Palestinians and several Arab countries also doing war crimes against us, we can continue our discussion.

        When will you realize that you refuse to end your occupation and colonization of Palestinian land? That you refuse to withdraw to within your / Partition borders? That you refuse to honour your obligations under international law – including the rightful return of refugees to their homes and lands?

      • amigo
        November 4, 2013, 8:22 am

        @Amigo:
        How do you call the missile attacks on Israeli civilians from Gaza strip?
        How do you call the missile attacks on Israeli civilians from South Lebanon?
        How do you call the terror attacks on Israeli civilians in our cities and villages?
        How do you call the continuous incitement in the Palestinian media and schools?
        How do you call the fact the hundreds of thousands refugees were left in their miserable situation only to be used as a future obstacle to the Jewish state?

        When you start realize that the Palestinians and several Arab countries also doing war crimes against us, we can continue our discussion.mehane.

        My response is:::.

        “MahaneYehude1 November 1, 2013 at 5:31 am

        @Shmuel:

        I don’t understand you (and others here) at all. look what you are doing: For palestinian violence you bring other example of violence from the Israeli side. ”

        Hello.

      • seafoid
        November 4, 2013, 9:13 am

        How do you call the missile attacks on Israeli civilians from Gaza strip?

        Ineffective but loved by the IDF PR team. How many deaths last year? .

        How do you call the missile attacks on Israeli civilians from South Lebanon?
        Which ones? How many deaths last year

        How do you call the terror attacks on Israeli civilians in our cities and villages? Ancient history

        “How do you call the continuous incitement in the Palestinian media and schools”

        Hasbara

        Incitement is when Jews destroy your home or take away your
        father/brother/son to unlimited administrative detention.

      • Bumblebye
        November 4, 2013, 9:34 am

        Mahane
        Q1 Almost invariably a REaction to incursions, bonbings, killings & other incitements by IDF.

        Q2 Ditto

        Q3 Assaults on Israelis would appear to be occurring in SETTLEMENTS, generally stolen land, often after severe provocations by settler thugs. not “our cities and villages” – those are behind the green line.

        Q4 Your children are indoctrinated from infancy to believe that all the land is theirs, that none of the ‘Ayrabs’ belong there, and are continuously encouraged in such lunitic beliefs by none other than your mainstream politicians as well as your media, etc.

        Q5 The millions of refugees in the countries neighboring Israel are the RESPONSIBILITY of Israel, one it has not met for OVER 65 YEARS. Instead of allowing them to return to THEIR towns and villages, your people destroyed them and built ethnically cleansed Jewish only towns and villages over them (where they didn’t plant European pine trees and call them forests). Israel should either invite these people home, or provide adequate compensation.

        Maybe you should go back to selling spuds, You’re proving incapable of overcoming your indoctrination into the Israel cult. You wuz brainwashed, and can’t see it!

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 4, 2013, 12:24 pm

        @Amigo:

        MahaneYehude1 says in November 2, 2013 at 10:15 am:
        @eljay: Look, I am not a lawyer that smash sentences. If you think you are an honest man (or woman), what do you think about the simple idea that both of us condemn ALL the crimes and violence from both sides, Palestinian and Israeli, and finish with this issue?

        Then, Amigo on November 2, 2013 at 3:34 pm, described Israeli war crimes only and denied Palestinians war crimes.

        Is someone here can condemn both Israeli and Palestinians crimes or will you continue your denial?

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 4, 2013, 12:58 pm

        @Bumblebye:

        Q1 and Q2: They were launched on civilians.

        Q3: BS!! Many terror attacks were done all over Israel. Beside, even terror attacks inside the settlements on civilians are also war crimes.

        I don’t justify any killing of civilians, Palestinians and Israelis, so, please, don’t justify them.

        Q4: I had a long debate on this issue in the past, mainly with Walid, so you can read it. You can also watch this documentary of Al-Jazeera.
        link to aljazeera.com

        Q5: Read the following, which is only one small example:
        “The Arab nations do not want to solve the Arab refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore… as a weapon against Israel.” – Alexander Galloway, former director of the refugee agency in Jordan (1952).

        I should not go back to selling spud since I am already a potato seller from Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem, Israel. Come back to me when you realize that war crimes were done by all parties in this conflict. Salamat!!

      • Talkback
        November 4, 2013, 7:32 pm

        MahaneYehude1 says: “Beside, even terror attacks inside the settlements on civilians are also war crimes.”

        Even settlements are war crimes.

        “I don’t justify any killing of civilians, Palestinians and Israelis, so, please, don’t justify them.”

        So how do you want to keep Palestinians from returning? And how do you want to keep them occupied without violence?

        “About the second part of your comment, we still disagree since Israel doesn’t expel Palestinians.”

        It’s at the point of KEEPING them expelled or their residency revoked. Are you nuts?

        “How do you call the fact the hundreds of thousands refugees were left in their miserable situation only to be used as a future obstacle to the Jewish state?”

        That is probably the must disgusting thing you have said so far. It’s your racist Apartheid Junta that keeps them expelled. And they are an obstacle to your racist state as Jews were considered to be an “obstacle” to a volkish German state.

      • Talkback
        November 4, 2013, 7:39 pm

        “MahaneYehude1 says: “BTW, why many times the commenters that wrote the original comments never bother themselves to answer?”

        I could say that you don’t press the reply button under their posting so they probably don’t even know that you wrote them.

      • Bumblebye
        November 4, 2013, 7:57 pm

        Mahane
        You really aren’t very good at juggling the hot hasbara potatoes!
        Since we know what happens to those who use violent resistance to Israel’s occupation and oppression and attempts to annihilate a nation – if they’re in Gaza, they and their families and neighbors get bombed and if they’re in the West Bank the IDF jail them (or a bunch of patsies) without due process (a 99.74% conviction rate makes every single trial 100% suspect) – and we know what happens to any of your lot who kill and maim Palestinians – ie, not much at all, slap on the hand, conviction of IDF i recall who killed a little girl was for wasting bullets – then we here are always going to come down hard on the ‘side’ or ‘party’ which is ALWAYS escaping justice, either in Israel/Palestine or internationally, and whose crimes are thousands of times more than anything the Palestinians have committed! You seem to have no comprehension of the sheer scale, the magnitude of what you and your country have done and are continuing to do!

      • talknic
        November 4, 2013, 8:21 pm

        MahaneYehude1 ” terror attacks inside the settlements on civilians are also war crimes”

        That’s why the GC’s exist to protect all civilians from the possible consequences of occupying another people and their territory.

        What sort of a ghastly government would deliberately encourage their citizens to illegally settle in territories that A) do not belong to the state and B) where they might suffer the violent consequences of of occupying another people and their territory?

        “I don’t justify any killing of civilians”

        YOU DO if you agree to them being encouraged to be in harms way!

      • MahaneYehude1
        November 4, 2013, 11:43 pm

        @Talkback: “could say that you don’t press the reply button under their posting so they probably don’t even know that you wrote them.”

        No, it happens many times even I reply them directly.

  8. MahaneYehude1
    November 1, 2013, 5:43 am

    @Philip Weiss: Honestly, what was the purpose of this post? Thanks.

    • Cliff
      November 1, 2013, 6:30 am

      It means Zionists are hypocrites.

      Westerners value martyrs as much as The Other.

      Westerners value violence as much as they perceive The Other to. See: Obama’s speech about the latest Medal Of Honor winner. ‘[Something something]The enemy asked for his surrender – he responded in kind with a grenade’.

  9. Denis
    November 1, 2013, 1:02 pm

    I would have looked at those red gloves for a month and still never made the connection to the Ramallah incident. But once someone mentions it, it jumps right out at you. Phil’s powers of association are truly nonpareil.

    @Roth: “while horrific, the ‘lynching’ was not actually extraordinary: it is not all that unusual for political militants to defile the bodies of their enemies.”

    This is where we’re going a bit lop-sided here logically. That is a bit of a non sequitur. I think “lynching” is, in fact, extraordinary, while defiling bodies probably is common place. There are two entirely separate issues being conflated.

    Issue 1: Lynching is the killing of the IDF guys by the mob.
    Issue 2: Desecration of the bodies is a separate issue.

    Most of the discussion here is about desecration of bodies were the people were killed not by lynching but in combat. If one is going to justify the Ramallah incident by providing counter-examples of i-Jews doing the same, one would need to cite an instance where crowds of i-Jews lynched a Palestinian or two and then desecrated the bodies. I can’t think of an example of such savagery, but I’ll give Pamela Geller a call. She’s an expert on savagery.

    The only other analogous instance of lynching/desecration I can think of in the Israel context is Palestinian on Palestinian. During “Pillar of Cast Lead” a mob of Palestinians summarily executed two (I think) Palestinians accused of being GoI spies and then dragged their bodies through the streets of Gaza behind motorcycles.

    Desecrating bodies of those killed in combat is a whole different kettle of fish, and as an ex-combat Marine, my lingering impression is that it’s more common than any civilian would ever imagine or want to imagine. That is trophy-taking, while lynching/desecration is a form of terrorism — violence to gain some political objective. Waving your blood-soaked hands to the crowd is a this-is-what’s-gonna’-happen-to-the-IDF sort of statement. Dragging the body of an outed spy through the streets is likewise a warning of consequences for spying. Gratuitous desecration of a fallen enemy is a more personal statement of I’m alive and you’re not, or there but for the grace of my M16 lie I. No connection to lynching-desecration, IMO.

    • Shmuel
      November 1, 2013, 1:49 pm

      Denis,

      There are two separate issues here – killing by mob and blood-soaked hands at the window. I’m not sure which made a greater impression on the Jewish Israeli public, but Phil’s post is about the image, the barbaric image of bloodlust and its impact on public opinion in Israel. It is in fact the lesser of the two, but it sticks in your mind, because of the way we relate to images, of course, but also because of its seemingly gratuitous barbarity – very much like mutilating the body of a dead enemy. Lozowick, for example, refers to the killing, but it is the image that fires his imagination (and his ideological/political conclusions).

      I’ve always wondered why suicide bombings shock Westerners so much more than bombings or other forms of mass killing that don’t involve the perpetrator’s blowing himself up at the same time (zero chances of survival or even subsequent suicide seem more “acceptable”). Oddly enough, I think it’s because we view such actions as particularly “inhuman” or “barbaric”.

      Back to the mob violence for a moment, it happens where there is little recognised authority (or authority is intentionally abdicated or denied). Where there is a strong state that exercises violence on behalf of the dominant group, there is little “need” or chance of mob violence (which also requires a certain dynamic) – although it may occur anyway (as indeed it has in Jerusalem, for example).

      • seafoid
        November 1, 2013, 1:58 pm

        “I’ve always wondered why suicide bombings shock Westerners so much more than bombings or other forms of mass killing that don’t involve the perpetrator’s blowing himself up at the same time (zero chances of survival or even subsequent suicide seem more “acceptable”). Oddly enough, I think it’s because we view such actions as particularly “inhuman” or “barbaric”.”

        Media presentation . Western political murder is never shown in gory detail. You will never see intestines of a dead Palestinian, Iraqi or Lebanese kid on the ground but those bloody hands were everywhere.

        And Israelis believe they are more moral because they never see the results of their army’s madness.

        War is lies and death.

      • eljay
        November 1, 2013, 2:13 pm

        >> I’ve always wondered why suicide bombings shock Westerners so much more than bombings or other forms of mass killing that don’t involve the perpetrator’s blowing himself up at the same time …

        I find it interesting that while suicide bombings shock Westerners, American cinema has no problem glorifying – and audiences have no problem applauding – suicide bombing as long as it’s one (or more) of “us” taking out one (or, preferably, a great many) of “them”.

        The movie “Oblivion” – an overall decent flick, IMO – is the most recent example that comes to mind.

      • Donald
        November 2, 2013, 8:37 am

        “Where there is a strong state that exercises violence on behalf of the dominant group, there is little “need” or chance of mob violence (which also requires a certain dynamic) – although it may occur anyway (as indeed it has in Jerusalem, for example).”

        I coined a phrase for this in its American form–couch potato terrorism. The term hasn’t caught on. It’s not totally accurate as a metaphor anyway, since the support manifests itself not just in watching Faux News and cheering for stupid warmongers, but at the ballot box and in who they give money to.

        Anyway, it frustrates me to hear rightwing Christians in the US talk about Islam as a terrorist religion, when Christian Zionists and rightwing American Christians in general are usually strong supporters of the very worst aspects of US foreign policy. They don’t have to do any killing themselves–they can vote for it.

    • Woody Tanaka
      November 1, 2013, 2:37 pm

      “Most of the discussion here is about desecration of bodies were the people were killed not by lynching but in combat.”

      I don’t see where any technical difference between the two is relevant in this situation. The israelis don’t limit themselves to oppressing uniformed Palestinians; the oppress all of them. The way I see it, the israelis chose to make war on all the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. So when a group of those people — who were made targets against their wishes by israeli fiat — chose to become combatants in that war and capture and execute members of the opposing army, I don’t see how it’s a “lynching” as much as it’s just an extrajudicial killing (which, though lamentable, is par for the course in the israeli’s war on the Palestinians [and the West's so-called "War on Terror" as a whole.])

  10. The Hasbara Buster
    November 1, 2013, 2:04 pm

    Denis:

    If one is going to justify the Ramallah incident by providing counter-examples of i-Jews doing the same, one would need to cite an instance where crowds of i-Jews lynched a Palestinian or two and then desecrated the bodies.

    I’m afraid the asymmetry of the situation makes that impossible. Israeli Jews can –and do– rejoice in the deaths of Palestinians without having to resort to killing them themselves, because they have an army that does it for them. For instance, during operation Cast Lead Jews flocked into Sderot to watch the destruction of Gaza live. There are several videos and stories on the web describing how casually they helped themselves to coffee from espresso machines as they witnessed the Israeli planes bomb the strip. When interviewed, they expressed genocidal wishes.

    On another note, you gotta love these Zionists. They claim to be morally superior, but when someone tries to ascertain whether that’s true or not, they ask them why they expect from Israel what they don’t expect from any other country on earth.

  11. Ecru
    November 1, 2013, 5:06 pm

    The purportedly wild and uncontrollable mob had the presence of mind to confiscate the film from all of the cameramen present, except for an Italian who smuggled out video images of the killers exultantly bathing their hands in Jewish blood. It was a deeply shocking illustration of the savage hatred of the enemy we had thought we were making peace with

    Where else have we seen film being confiscated? Oh yes, on the Flotilla. What savage hatred of the enemy did that film show on the part of the storm troopers sent in to murder innocent people?

    And yet whilst in the Ramalah incident this is presented as bad, a pre-thought out conspiracy, the typical response from the Hasbarites to Israeli goons doing the same thing not only on the Flotilla but anywhere else is “totally ok, where’s the problem?” Just more of that Zionist double standard at play. Again.

  12. talknic
    November 1, 2013, 8:40 pm

    ‘sh*t happens’ both sides in a war in which ZioRighteousness reaches unparalleled lows

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