Kerry wants to imprison West Bank with massive security fence along Jordanian border

Israel/Palestine
on 220 Comments
Kerry (left) and Netanyahu. Photo credit:  Galei Zahal

Kerry (left) and Netanyahu.
Photo credit: Galei Zahal

According to a widely quoted report from Israeli Army Radio (Galei Zahal) on Tuesday, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry will propose most of the security arrangements that Israel desires from any agreement with the Palestinians. It is rumored that on December 31st, Kerry will present a draft proposal to both sides which will outline the U.S. understanding of all outstanding issues to be addressed in any peace agreement. The Kerry draft will also give the U.S. proposals for Israeli military deployments in a future Palestinian state. Sources close to the Palestinian negotiating team say that Kerry and his team have already reserved hotel rooms for his year-end visit.

What is new about the Army Radio report (Hebrew) is that according to the Kerry plan a massive border fence would be built and Israeli surveillance drones would patrol Palestinian airspace.

According to the plan that was written by dozens of American officials, after consultation with former defense officials, a massive fence will be built along the Jordan Valley like the separation fence, thus the Palestinians will be imprisoned between the two fences. [My emphasis and trans., IG] Israeli drones will freely patrol the West Bank, and will be able to follow what is happening there, in order to watch over terror organizations and to gather intelligence.

Kerry will recommend that the Israeli military be solely responsible for guarding the Palestinian border with Jordan during the first years after any agreement. After a time, the Israelis would patrol the border in coordination with the Palestinians. This arrangement, which has been previously reported elsewhere, would last from 10 to 15 years, and would be terminated only if the Israelis agree that the Palestinians are capable of guarding the border unaided. Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has vehemently rejected this proposal, stating that any presence of the Israeli military on Palestinian soil would be an infringement upon Palestinian sovereignty. He has been especially critical of the section giving Israel the sole authority to decide when and if the Palestinians are capable of securing the border, which Abbas fears could lead to Israeli forces remaining in the Jordan Valley indefinitely.

An official close to the Palestinian negotiations described Abbas as “boiling mad” after Kerry first informed him about the American ideas for a long-term Israeli presence in the West Bank. In a highly unusual diplomatic move, Abbas went over the head of the Secretary of State and his envoy Martin Indyk, by writing directly to President Obama to complain about the matter. The U.S. President’s reply is not known.

Abbas also met with Arab League officials in Cairo this week, where he received support for his public stance that no Israeli army personnel should be allowed in the future Palestinian state. The Palestinian President said that when Kerry formally presents his draft proposal he will not respond before showing it to the Arab League and getting its input.

The Israeli reaction to Kerry’s proposals, according to leaks from Israeli officials, is acceptance subject to negotiation. In other words, despite Kerry’s very pro-Israel draft, Netanyahu wants further concessions from the Palestinians or is just using further negotiations to block further discussions of the core issues.

The army radio report elicited much criticism of the Kerry plan from Israeli officials who, amazingly, think that it is too pro-Palestinian. Ze’ev Elkin, the Deputy Foreign Minister, said that Israel demands not only a military presence, but also must retain its Jordan Valley settlements, which is not part of the Kerry plan. Shaul Mofaz, a member of the Knesset and former Chief of the General Staff of the Israeli army, complained that Israel must retain not only a military presence but sovereignty in the Jordan Valley for at least 20 years.

When the negotiations were on the verge of collapse a number of weeks ago, the Palestinians pleaded with Kerry to take an active part in the talks and to put forth American proposals. From what we know now about what Kerry is tabling for discussion, Abbas and his team may regret that they ever asked for U.S. assistance.

On Christmas Day, The New York Times  published an op-ed by a Palestinian academic named Ali Jarbawi, titled “The Coming Intifada.” Mr. Jarbawi makes it clear that the anger and hopelessness that is being felt by Palestinians is directly related to the impasse in the peace talks and the deleterious effects of American pressure on behalf of Israel.  This is especially true because of the Israeli security demands which limit Palestinian territory and sovereignty.  Jarbawi opines that U.S. pressure could force Abbas to sign an agreement which would in effect prolong the occupation, which could then trigger the next intifada.

Hope has always been correlated with the realities of the so-called peace process. When the latter seems promising, hope rises, and when the process stalls, so does the sense of hopefulness. The Palestinians’ strategic mistake was to think that conceding 78 percent of the land of historical Palestine in 1993 would be enough. It didn’t occur to them that Israel wanted to split this remaining land with them, leaving them with — in the best of cases — a state of leftovers.

Israel’s current conditions for a Palestinian state would shatter Palestinians’ basic demands for liberty and independence. The promised Palestinian state will be nothing but a shadow entity completely ruled by Israel. And the price that is being demanded for this state is so exorbitant that the Palestinian Authority cannot sell it, nor can the Palestinians accept it.

These pockets of land would be demilitarized, and Israel would have control over the borders, skies and natural resources. To get this, Palestinians must give up the right of return of diaspora Palestinians, and publicly declare that Israel is a Jewish state. This is a toxic cocktail perfectly mixed to produce a Palestinian uprising against the Israeli occupation, and the Authority as well — if the latter accepts these Israeli demands and yields to American pressure.

About Ira Glunts

Ira Glunts is a retired college librarian who lives in Madison, NY.

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220 Responses

  1. Bumblebye
    December 26, 2013, 9:38 am

    Oh Cr*p. That 10 to 15 years would be used to concentrate Israeli Jewish settlement of the Jordan Valley, ethnically cleansing the last few thousand Palestinians, meaning another period of time creating new ‘facts on the ground’ making withdrawal impossible. Look, says Bibi’s successor, no Palestinians here! Who can we possibly return it to? – and it would be so anti-semitic to make thousands of Jews homeless! The remaining bantustans would become open-air prisons from which it would be increasingly easy to keep international monitors excluded. Exremist shtetlers wet dream – death to Palestine – achieved.

    • Walid
      December 26, 2013, 10:24 am

      “The Palestinian President said that when Kerry formally presents his draft proposal he will not respond before showing it to the Arab League and getting its input.”

      That’s a diplomatic way of passing the buck. The Arab League will huff and puff but at the end of the day will supposedly twist Abbas’ arm to accept these terms of surrender because there is no other option. Abbas would then say that the Arabs made him do it. There’s no business like show business.

      • Taxi
        December 26, 2013, 10:49 am

        The Arab League has already rejected Kerry’s ‘security proposal':
        link to haaretz.com

      • Walid
        December 26, 2013, 12:00 pm

        Taxi, this is part of the script; Abbas met last week with the Arab League and there is nothing new for him to present to the League. The huffing and puffing started last Saturday and there will be more of it in the coming days. Nothing new is really being presented by Kerry at the end of the month. The deal is already made and all these theatrics is to break the news gently to the Palestinian people. Those 400,000 refugees in the camps of Lebanon aren’t going anywhere, not even to the bantustans because these can’t absorb them nor those other ones in Syria and Jordan..

      • Taxi
        December 26, 2013, 12:45 pm

        There isn’t going to be a Kerry deal, Walid. It really is all that simple. The whole thing is a charade, yes, but not one that will lead to a deal. Abbas is probably the weakest politician on the planet – he’s just a corner prop on the American-israeli kabuki theater – he has no speaking lines. But he has to make an appearance because the (peace) show must go on, props and all.

        What’s amazing to me is that there is any interest in these current so-called peace talks. I’m certainly not interested. Cuz I already know it’s pointless to talk to zionists: they want land, not peace. Which is why I always remind people here that the house of cards that is Apartheid-colonial israel will only tumble with bullets and not with words.

        I have no expectations of Abbas and his team. Really now, there’s hardly anything they can do to change their misfortune. Abbas has zero power as the leader of an occupied people because he has renounced the use of force against the occupier. Shackled Palestine needs a young and skilled resistance leader, not an aging statesman.

      • Hostage
        December 26, 2013, 6:11 pm

        Taxi, this is part of the script;

        You’re gonna have a hard time convincing me of that. The Secretary of the Arab League is “Judge Elaraby” from the ICJ Wall case.

        He of all people knows that this proposal includes even more illegal impediments to the exercise of Palestinian right of self-determination in violation of the UN Charter and doesn’t even begin to address the illegal situations outlined in the advisory opinion, or end the occupation in line with the terms of the UN Charter and resolution 242.

      • thetruthhurts
        December 27, 2013, 12:56 am

        taxi-you say israel will only tumble with bullets. what psychotic delusional manifestation has overtaken your thought process that would have you think anything is gonna stop israel. why?
        US is totally behind them. so what’s gonna stop them, UFO’s?

      • Walid
        December 26, 2013, 1:13 pm

        Taxi, a charade it is. But Israel never walks away from any negotiation with Palestinians in which it ever gives up anything or in which it doesn’t come away with a new concession gained. The history of negotiations is a list of the various Palestinian concessions made.

      • seafoid
        December 26, 2013, 1:28 pm

        Yeah walid but they don’t have anything left to concede really. Taxi is right about negotiating with bots. They are so deep down insecure they want everything plus AND they want the world to.love them AND say Bar refeli is sexy AND send more money. I wish them the full range of unintended consequences.

      • Walid
        December 26, 2013, 1:53 pm

        Seafoid, Palestinian negotiators have been so preoccupied with the big picture that they easily gave away what they considered as small concessions. So far Israel has gathered a lot of little ones that are turning out to be actually big and important ones that Palestinians should not have given up. A small example is how they got conned into not advancing their UN or Hague cases in exchange of restarting the talks. This has given Israel an additional 5000 new homes in the territories and a free ride for a couple of years.

        The Israeli negotiating team is dancing circles around the Palestinian one that doesn’t have a clue that the earth is moving under its feet. I still haven’t gotten over the fact that at the Oslo negotiations, they didn’t even have a lawyer present with them while Israel had 2 of their sharpest lawyers there.

      • Taxi
        December 27, 2013, 9:23 am

        thetruthhurts,
        “what psychotic delusional manifestation has overtaken your thought process”

        Erm, it’s called gritty realism, buddy. How else did we get rid of the nazis except by force; or should the resistance have stopped the good (gun) fight if the US were “totally behind them” nazis? Get real! We’re talking about fighting an armed and and evil state here, a state intent on liquidating & subjugating not only the indigenous people it has already brutally colonized, but intent also on stomping on all its neighbors too.

        ‘Live free or die’ – I’m sure you personally loath this slogan, but some people live by it.

        We’re in post 2006 war between hizbollah and israel and I should really be telling you to wake the freak up! Israel is in no position to win in a regional war. This ain’t 1967. And the only person seeing “UFO’s” here is you.

      • Taxi
        December 28, 2013, 11:49 pm

        “Please explain in detail” – sibriak.
        Go figure it out yourself – you’re a big know-it-all boy aren’t you?

        @Walid,
        Thanks for your concern but I feel perfectly safe in south Lebanon because I’m not relying on Lebanese army helicopters – nobody is. I’m relying on hizb anti-aircraft missiles to do the job of shooting down israeli F35 like they’re dizzy sparrows.

        And I wouldn’t be so sure about israel’s ability to “rebuild” after such a military devestation has been heaped upon it. Only Palestine will be rebuilt.

      • Walid
        December 29, 2013, 10:27 am

        Taxi, earplugs weren’t for the helicopter noise. You’re right to feel safe there but it could still get very noisy.

      • Sibiriak
        December 28, 2013, 3:49 am

        Taxi:

        Erm, it’s called gritty realism, buddy. How else did we get rid of the nazis except by force

        That’s not gritty realism, that’s glib fantasy. What military force can defeat the combined forces of Israel and the U.S.? Give it up.

      • Taxi
        December 28, 2013, 9:36 am

        Disgusting cowardice, sibriak!

        Never ever ever ever give up the good fight! You wouldn’t last a minute as an occupied person. You’d immediately surrender or collaborate or something equally reprehensible and weak-minded.

        Buzz off mister surrender! The resistance is already feared, not pitied or dismissed.

        And you think having American military backing guarantees victory, or protection of israel? Didn’t the ’06 war teach you anything?! Israel doesn’t have a chance in hell in a regional missile war. And it freaking knows it.

      • Sibiriak
        December 28, 2013, 11:14 am

        Taxi :

        Never ever ever ever give up the good fight!

        Get off your high horse. I never said give up the fight, or even give up violence. I’m not a pacifist. I said give up the idea that Israel can and can only be defeated militarily.

        I notice you didn’t answer the question: what military force can defeat the combined forces of Israel and the U.S.?

        Israel doesn’t have a chance in hell in a regional missile war.

        Please explain in detail: who fires missiles at Israel with what results for all involved ?

      • Taxi
        December 28, 2013, 1:49 pm

        Sibriak,

        It’s like the ’06 war never happened in your time warp.

        That’s my answer to you.

        The zionist state is NOT invincible, with or without America’s support. And what makes you so sure that America will forever be backing that “shitty little country” anyway?

        And finally, you clearly don’t have a clue about this little thing we call military strategy. Never heard of David and Goliath, deary? You honestly think that a big gun is all you need to win a war? You’re a fool if you do and clearly you do.

        You always get ants in your pants whenever a military defeat of israel is mentioned. How sensitive of you. How… how… the hell why don’t you just stop romanticizing the freaking idf! They’re a bunch of cowardly losers who’ll be eating more dirt sooner or later. The ’06 war has shown us reams of the inevitability of the zionsts’ military defeat. This is a significant fact that you absolutely insist on denying. The firepower concentrated towards israel right now is even more than it was back in ’06; an unprecedented quantity of firepower is aimed at israel presently, and it will keep multiplying till the 12th hour. I give israel a handful of days in the next war, its last war. Well think about it: It’s a small place, with limited targets, and all those thousands upon thousands of missiles heading hither and simultaneously.

        And, Sibriak, I hope this p*sses you off till you’re blue in the face.

      • Sibiriak
        December 28, 2013, 2:17 pm

        Taxi :

        It’s like the ’06 war never happened in your time warp.

        Not at all. Israel is not omnipotent militarily. But then again, Zionism was never threatened with military destruction in ‘o6.

        And what makes you so sure that America will forever be backing that “shitty little country” anyway?

        I never made that claim. Nothing is forever

        And, Sibriak, I hope this p*sses you off till you’re blue in the face.

        I’m not at all angered by your comments. I simply disagree that a solution to Palestinian oppression and suffering is going to be found in the military destruction of Zionist Israel. I respect your opinions though.

      • Walid
        December 28, 2013, 3:18 pm

        Taxi, it won’t be only missiles. No doubt that Lebanon would be again devastated by Israel’s superior air power (Lebanon has about 20 helicopters and a couple of big Cessna’s just donated by the US, all of them unarmed, but what will be different is that it’s promised that the fight would be taken to Israel for the first time and TA will be equally devastated. There really wouldn’t be any winner but Israel is going to have to rebuild for the first time. The Lebanese have gotten used to it after 5 or 6 times. If it happens, you’re going to be in the middle of the fireworks; hope you brought ear plugs and lots of fire water.

      • Citizen
        December 28, 2013, 3:35 pm

        @ Sibiriak

        When the fight over BDS reaches the American Public, and when AIPAC’s influence over the US congress and POTUS reaches the ( impoverished) American public, the gritty realistic response will not be what Zionists want.

      • yrn
        December 29, 2013, 10:41 am

        Taxi

        That’s the best comedy I read in MW for a long time.

        I bet Annie Robbins adores your Military destruction description of Israel.

      • Taxi
        December 29, 2013, 10:53 am

        Walid,

        I actually have earplugs. Expensive ones used by Heavy Metal drummers. Bought them in LA before I came here. They’re still in their box :-)

        And re Saudi and it’s arming of the Lebanese army: they’re gonna have to spend a lot more than 3 billion for the Lebanese army to be on military-ware par with hizbollah. Maybe Saudi thinks it can buy the Lebanese army then turn them against hizbollah, their brothers-in-arms. Fat chance!

        Desperate, desperate day for the house of saud.

        Oh the saudi embassy two days ago, the day of the carbomb assassination, asked all it’s saudi citizens in Lebanon to immediately leave Lebanon.

      • HarryLaw
        December 26, 2013, 11:07 am

        Walid @ “The Palestinian President said that when Kerry formally presents his draft proposal he will not respond before showing it to the Arab League and getting its input.” I don’t think Abbas would need to do that, if the proposals are as reported, they would represent terms of surrender only a fool could accept, but then the Abbas suggestion that US troops could man the Palestinian border with Jordan is equally foolish, they would have to co ordinate with the IDF, in effect take orders from them, these proposals will be DOA, maybe Kerry knows that, but all is not lost, just recently “the PLO chief negotiator Saeb Erakat, commenting on Kerry’s proposals, said that the Palestinian leadership “perhaps” committed a “strategic mistake” by agreeing to the resumption of negotiations with Israel instead of seeking first the membership of international organizations to build on the UN General Assembly’s recognition last year of Palestine as a non-member state”. If true, this Kerry proposal amounts to an insult to the Palestinians intelligence, will it be a wake up call to the Palestinian Leadership, Abbas need not go to the Arab league, he should give Kerry both barrels, to his face.

      • Walid
        December 26, 2013, 12:06 pm

        Too late for a wake-up call, Harry. Abbas has already thrown in the towel about going to the UN even though he keeps threatening to do it. The Israelis are toying with the Palestinian negotiating team. I though that Erekat quit again; is he back on the job now?

      • Sibiriak
        December 26, 2013, 10:26 pm

        Walid, if you are right, and you may well be, the logical conclusion is that the Palestinian leadership should just get it over with and sign on to the Israeli-US plan as soon as politically possible.

      • Walid
        December 29, 2013, 10:44 am

        Taxi, good news to make you feel even safer. Lebanese President announced a $3 billion grant from Saudi Arabia for new military arms for the army to be purchased from France. Good news for Lebanon and France but it sure looks like the Saudis are really pissed-off at the Americans.

      • Citizen
        December 26, 2013, 12:21 pm

        @ HarryLaw

        “Abbas need not go to the Arab league, he should give Kerry both barrels, to his face.”

        He already could have done that. Abbas is just looking to cover his butt, which is why he went to the Arab League, and now says he will do that again.
        IMO, Abbas is just seeking to retain his unelected power. Nothing I’ve read says, in addition to going to the Arab League, he’s gonna request referendum that includes the Palestinian refugee vote.

        The end result of Kerry’s plan is walling in the entire Israeli OT of the Palestinians, turning all of Palestinian land into Gaza. Kerry’s chump change.
        Nobody in US government is willing to put pressure on the Israelis, even though Israel is heavily dependent on the USA in so many ways.

      • yrn
        December 29, 2013, 11:19 am

        Walid

        “Taxi, good news to make you feel even safer. Lebanese President announced a $3 billion grant from Saudi Arabia for new military arms for the army to be purchased from France.”

        That’s the worse news for Taxi and her hezbollah hero’s, she dose not want a strong Lebanon, she wants a weak Lebanon with hezbollah ruling the puppets.
        As for her Lebanon is not the issue, but the destruction of Israel.
        A strong Lebanon will push hezbollah away and that’s something Taxi and Annie Robbins will not accept.

      • Taxi
        December 29, 2013, 12:11 pm

        “A strong Lebanon will push hezbollah away and that’s something Taxi and Annie Robbins will not accept.”

        Oh shut it yrn you colonial imbecile! May hizbollah haunt your criminal squatting days forever more.

        You honestly think that people would believe that you and your Apartheid israel want a “strong Lebanon”? Get out of town!

        And get out of Palestine while you’re at it!

      • Annie Robbins
        December 29, 2013, 1:03 pm

        A strong Lebanon will push hezbollah away

        that’s crazy talk. the lebanese know who drove israel out. they know hezbollah is the only thing standing between the border and israeli aspirations to expand up to the litani and control the water. why on earth would the majority of lebanese reject the kind of security hezbollah provides? besides, the army works in sync w/hezbollah just like they did when they busted all those israeli spies. and cia spies too. where yrn comes up with this fantasy reality is beyond me. but his silliness doesn’t stop at making these assertions, he then doubles down pretending we would not ‘accept’ his fantasy. and it has nothing to do with me accepting it or not, it’s simply untrue and elections confirm that.

      • Walid
        December 29, 2013, 12:17 pm

        yrn, the news should make you even happier than Taxi. With a properly armed army to keep Israel on its side of the fence, there wouldn’t be a further need for Hizbullah and all the hundreds of millions being spent on missiles giving you insomnia could better be spent on providing better services to the people instead. Until those arms arrive, mostly everyone is comfortable having Hizbullah’s missiles keeping Israel on its best behaviour. That’s what Nasrallah keeps repeating.

      • Hostage
        December 26, 2013, 6:17 pm

        US troops could man the Palestinian border with Jordan is equally foolish, they would have to co ordinate with the IDF, in effect take orders from them

        The Multinational Force and Observers (MFO) doesn’t take orders from the IDF. link to mfo.org

      • Taxi
        December 29, 2013, 12:04 pm

        yrn is scared sh*tless of reality. And reality is that israel is NOT forever.

        Much nervous laughter escaping yrn’s mean mouth.

      • bintbiba
        December 26, 2013, 11:19 am

        They constantly are adding insult to injury.
        Vile!! The whole lot of them.

      • seafoid
        December 26, 2013, 11:34 am

        Shoah business, Walid.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 10:44 am

        @thetruthhurts

        taxi-you say israel will only tumble with bullets. what psychotic delusional manifestation has overtaken your thought process that would have you think anything is gonna stop israel. why?
        US is totally behind them. so what’s gonna stop them, UFO’s?

        Someone making sense. Exactly. Until you can name a world power who is willing to take on substantial risk of war to stop Israel no one is stopping them.

      • Sibiriak
        December 28, 2013, 6:01 am

        JeffB:

        Until you can name a world power who is willing to take on substantial risk of war to stop Israel no one is stopping them.

        I agree. You are certainly scoring a lot of minor points here against posters with unrealistic but understandable hopes that some outside force is going to rapidly emerge and stop Israeli expansionism. Not going to happen.

        U.S. opinion will not change quickly enough, if it ever does, in order to turn U.S. policy around. Nor will the system of US campaign finance be significantly altered so as to “take the money out of politics” and neutralize “the Lobby”. Won’t happen. BDS is having some success, and Israel is certainly losing its moral sheen–but its still more of a PR irritant than an actual threat. The intense anti-BDS backlash is not a measure of BDS’s real power, but more of a “slippery slope” thing, not unlike the gun lobby’s over-the-top reaction to the mildest proposals for gun regulation.

        More UN resolutions? Nope. They have no enforcement mechanisms. International Courts? Same problem, aside from political barriers. Needless to say, there is no military force out there to stop Israel. Countries around the world have and continue to commit worse crimes than Israel’s–and they have gotten away with it and continue to get away with it.

        You have made a very strong case–one that I basically agree with–that Israel is on the verge of inflicting a historic defeat on the Palestinians. Israel can and most likely will gobble up the West Bank and “crush” the Palestinian’s national aspirations.

        But what you have not done, and cannot do, is make a case that what Israel is doing is not a grotesque negation of universal human values and international law. You cannot demonstrate that what Israel is doing has any moral legitimacy– except by appealing to the most anachronistic, social-Darwinistic, ultra-nationalistic “morality” of a “Jewish Nation” that supposedly benefits from apartheid, ethnic-cleansing and various other crimes against humanity.

        And even from that Jewish-ultra-nationalist perspective, your argument falls way short: you have shown that the “Jewish Nation” can crush Palestinian national aspirations, but you have NOT shown that is a good thing for Jews that they try to rule over millions and millions of rebellious Palestinians.

        You have not shown that Zionism would not be better off if Israeli leaders agreed to a two-state settlement based on pre-1967 borders (with agreed upon land swaps), Jerusalem as a shared capital, and a largely symbolic “right of return” w/ compensation.

        Perhaps, some argue, Palestinian leaders may reluctantly accept as their “state” an archipelago of shrunken, demilitarized, Israeli surrounded and supervised enclaves –the Israeli end-goal for some time.

        But what if Israel pushes too far, and that slim possibility a settlement vanishes–what then?

        Well, you tell us the Palestinians should act “reasonably “ and accept their total defeat. They should become Israeli citizens and embrace Zionism; they should accept the foundational ideology (myths) of the Israeli state and even one day consider the possibility of converting to Judaism, however far-fetched that might sound.

        You write:

        [JeffB:] I agree that having a permanently disenfranchised minority population is a denial of a western style democracy. But I don’t advocate that. I think the Palestinians will meet Israel 1/2 way and then Israel can get them the rest of the way.

        It is here, precisely that your realism falters, dramatically and decisively. The notion that millions of Palestinians with such a long tradition of resistance to Zionism, with their own fully developed Palestinian identity and Palestinian nationalism —and their own Arab identity as well and backing by a greater Arab world, and their own Muslim identity too, and backing by a greater Muslim world– with their own political organizations and non-governmental social movements, with all their recent victories under the law and in world opinion (despite continual losses “on the ground”), with the recent recognition of their Palestinian state by hundreds of other states, with “the West” and international law fully and steadfastly trumpeting the legal and moral necessity of two states, and so on and so forth—given all this, the notion that the Palestinian people are going to abandon their national aspirations and willingly become Zionists, is pure fantasy—or rather intellectual disingenuousness.

        Your analogy with Russian Christians simply does not hold water. Russian Christians form a tiny minority in Israel, and they were willing immigrants. Palestinians on the other hand would make up a majority or near majority of Israeli citizens and they would not be doing so willingly. There is no sign of the current Israeli-Palestinian Arabs becoming full-fledged Zionists, and no chance that the Palestinian people would.

        Practically every Israeli analyst, left-liberal to hard-right, agrees that Palestinians are a “demographic threat”; none embraces your bizarre theory that millions of Palestinians can be converted to Zionism and made loyal supporters of the Jewish Nation (no “Israeli nation” exists under Israeli law or in Zionist ideology.)

        Certainly, it would take multiple generations at the very minimum for any such transformation of Palestinian consciousness to take place. 50 years? 100 years? So how could these Palestinians be made full Israeli citizens before this near-miraculous Palestinian-conversion-to-Zionism was completed?

        If they were made full citizens with full civil rights, as a near-majority non-Zionist bloc they would be able to cause complete havoc in the functioning of the Zionist state, and as a majority they would be able to change the Basic Laws of the Israeli state.

        Thus, there is no way that Palestinians could ever be given full civil rights in a Zionist Israel for decades and decades—but that means they would be forced to live an apartheid state until the time of their hoped-for conversion to Zionism, and that very experience of apartheid oppression and humiliation would guarantee that no such conversion would ever take place.

        JeffB, you’re a smart guy. You know this notion that Palestinians could be converted to Zionism is laughably absurd. So, why do you make this completely unrealistic argument which is so out of character with the realism you normally adopt?

        Well, obviously you wish, as a matter of polemical strategy (I rule out self-delusion) to avoid having to fully face the consequences of your argument: If Israel crushes all Palestinian national aspirations, Israel will have to abandon all pretense of being a normal Western-style democracy and will become a transparently oppressive/apartheid state lacking any cover from a ongoing sham “peace process”.

        But then again, wait! In other posts, you have already recognized that fact, and you have already admitted that your Palestinian-conversion thesis is illusory:

        [JeffB: From a Jewish perspective it is therapeutic. Jews are getting to see politics from the Tzar’s point of view. Having been exactly where the Palestinians are though I think what they are going through is dreadful.

        The smart thing for them to do would be to do the equivalent of convert to Christianity, that is become loyal Israelis. I DON’T THINK THEY ARE GOING TO.

        So ultimately, if they survive as a people after Palestine, they seem destined to experience history from the Jewish point of view and come to understand why the Jews were so desperate to do what they did in Palestine.

        (emphasis added)

        You say Jews will have to take the Tsar’s perspective politically= they will have to become horrible oppressors ; and you say the Palestinians will have to suffer like the Jews.

        So, let’s be honest—THAT is your realistic assessment and prescription for Israel, not the nonsense about Israel making millions of Palestinians citizens with full civil rights.

        You are a smart guy, and you know that Israeli Zionist policy has always been and always will be directed toward the exact opposite goal: excluding as many Palestinians from citizenship in Israel as possible.

        But you were also smart enough to realize that your prediction and “therapeutic” recommendation that “Jews will become Tsars, and Palestinians become Jews” is simply too morally objectionable, dark and disgusting except to the most extreme Jewish ultra-nationalists, Christian Zionists et al. You realized that you should retreat somewhat, tactically, and try to salvage some liberal-democratic moral sugar-coating by formulating your fantasy-land Palestinian-conversion-to-Zionism notion.

        Thus, your “system” of illiberal Zionist apologetics crashes down under the weight of fundamental self-contradiction, despite it’s many realistic elements and superficial coherence.

        The truth is, when one strips away your risible and self-rejected “Palestinian conversion” thesis, you DO in fact advocate “denial of western-style democracy” for Israel; you do in fact advocate that Israel become an out and out apartheid state, an anachronistic Tsar-like oppressor.

        The truth also is: you can’t have it both ways . You can’t reject
        Liberal Zionism’s indispensable two-state paradigm, yet at the same time try to claim some Liberal Zionism’s liberal-democratic pretensions.

        You can’t reject Liberal Zionism’s lack of realism, yet at the same time try to hang on to some Liberal Zionist arguments for the moral legitimacy of a Jewish State in Palestine.

        You need to come out and fully embrace the implications of your illiberal Zionism–you need to fully embrace the denial of western humanistic values, of western-style liberal democracy; fully embrace your ultra-nationalism; fully embrace the necessity and “therapeutic” value of apartheid and ethnic cleansing.

        Stop the passive-aggressive stuff; stop the self-contradictions and dissembling. Nobody is being fooled! Be a man and embrace your inner Kahane!

      • Ramzi Jaber
        December 28, 2013, 9:48 am

        Sibiriak, you make very good points about realism and romanticism. i myself fluctuate between both due to the pain and humiliation of zionist colonization.

        i just want to add that, for more than 100 years now, the zionists tried to eradicate us. they failed. they will continue in various devious ways. they will fail. we are detrmined. we are robust. we are steadfast. these are not empty slogans but facts on the ground that only get stronger with each additional illegal colony, with each additional illegal arrest, with each roadblock, with each strip search, with each denial of car permit, with each additional criminal murder, with each additional attack on a house, with each destruction of a tree, with each demolition of a house. we are not going anywhere. and apartheid is here and has been here for years except now with the internet it’s becoming known to all. the zionist regime will crumble since it’s illegal and criminal and unjust. it might take time, it will likely take time but we are patient to get our rights.

        when i was growing up, i was content to get back part of palestine (the so-called “west bank”). with what the zionists have done and plotted and continue to do and plot, i now want my right to live anywhere in historic palestine, to go back to my lands and houses in pre-1948 palestine. the jews who want to live peacefully and democratically are most welcome to do so as well in one equal state. heck, i am ok if they want to call it israel as long as all lawful citizens are 100% equal.

        that is what the zionists have done to a VERY moderate palestinian. they toughened his stand and made him feel more attached to what was lost than ever before.

      • Walid
        December 28, 2013, 10:27 am

        ” I am ok if they want to call it Israel as long as all lawful citizens are 100% equal.”

        Ramzi, that’s exactly what Israel offers, as long as 100% of the Palestinians become 100% Judaized and 100% Zionists and all traces of Palestinian culture and language erased from the face of the land.

        I doubt very much you or any Palestinians would go along with that. The example of the Palestinian Christian cleric telling his flock to become good and loyal soldiers in the Zionist army is a very rare exception and truly despicable. On the other hand, your negotiators are now doing worse.

      • MHughes976
        December 28, 2013, 11:07 am

        I really wanted to ask a question following Ramzi’s and Walid’s remarks below, but they don’t seem to have a reply button.
        Is mass Judaisation of Palestinians really part of the Israeli programme? Could this be done with mass conversion to Jewish religion, ie a reversion to the policy of the Hasmoneans? To set such a test for citizenship would seem pretty – can’t think of a word – weird? Regressive? Outrageous?

      • Keith
        December 28, 2013, 4:12 pm

        SIBIRIAK- JeffB says: “Until you can name a world power who is willing to take on substantial risk of war to stop Israel no one is stopping them.”

        Let me begin by saying that I thought that overall your comment to JeffB on 12/28 @ 6:01 am was excellent. Having said that, rather than being unstoppable, I think that Israel is extremely dependent upon empire for military and diplomatic support, without which Israel would have to significantly modify its behavior.

        Sibiriak says: “U.S. opinion will not change quickly enough, if it ever does, in order to turn U.S. policy around. Nor will the system of US campaign finance be significantly altered so as to “take the money out of politics” and neutralize “the Lobby”. Won’t happen.”

        Perhaps not, but I see too little effort in trying to call attention to AIPAC and empire’s role in this whole rotten business. It is my belief that American Jewish Zionists are the primary beneficiaries of Israeli militarism, Zionism the ideological unifier of the disparate Jewish organizations, and of highly successful Zionist power-seeking. As long as it remains a useful tool for the power-seeking activities of Empire Jews (Marc Ellis’ useful term), nothing will change. And while I support BDS, ultimately the fate of the Palestinians will probably be determined more by attitudes and strategies emanating from New York and Washington than from Tel Aviv. Ultimately, the situation in Israel/Palestine cannot be remedied without ending imperial support for Israeli actions.

      • eljay
        December 29, 2013, 12:01 am

        >> Sibiriak @ December 28, 2013 at 6:01 am

        Excellent post!

      • Annie Robbins
        December 29, 2013, 12:29 am

        i agree, really excellent post.

        and what happened to the reply buttons. it’s making it really hard to respond to comments.

      • JeffB
        December 29, 2013, 9:34 am

        @Sibiriak

        Excellent comment! Very long and very meaty. Too meaty in fact to respond to in a single post. So let me author a where we stand comment with a few minor questions and then we work through this over time. Here are the topics as I see them and my “where we stand comments”. Let me know where you want to go from here.

        1) It appears that we agree on the international situation. That’s good.

        2) “What Israel is doing is a grotesque negation of universal human value”.

        I think this comes down to how one determines what a universal human value is. I’d say a universal human value is one that humans agree to practice universally. So for example all human societies have a concept of theft and don’t like. Contrapositively any practice which is frequently argued for and applauded in the abstract by societal leaders cannot be a universal human value.

        My points about the historical process of nation formation is that what Israel is doing is perfectly consistent with that historical process. And moreover, as that process is taking place in other places on the globe those places are going through similar things.

        I find that a pretty definitive argument disproving that Israel is negating a universal human value. I’d suggest if you want to continue down that road we have to first agree about how we would even determine what a universal human value is.

        3) A “grotesque negation of international law”.

        If by international law one means the UN then what Israel is doing is a negation of that. The UN’s position I find ridiculous. I’m not going to argue that Israel’s behavior is consistent with their views on how nations should conduct their affairs. The UN system is designed to prevent threats to world peace. The emergence of new nations is a threat to world peace.

        If on the other hand one means those conventions that have evolved over the millennia and stood the test of time regarding relations between nations and moreover are the practices that nations engage in then this debate ends up looking a lot like the “universal human values” debate. It becomes a question of history.

        4) A good thing for Jews that they try to rule over millions and millions of rebellious Palestinians.You have not shown that Zionism would not be better off if Israeli leaders agreed to a two-state settlement based on pre-1967 borders (with agreed upon land swaps), Jerusalem as a shared capital, and a largely symbolic “right of return” w/ compensation.

        4a) I really see this as two topics. Given the two state structure you are proposing I believe that even if a Palestinian “state” were created along the the lines you suggest Israel is still going to have to convert them into a de-facto colony. Israel simply cannot permit Palestine to go in its natural direction of a hostile client state for Israel’s other enemies on the Arabian peninsula and the broader muslim world. So I’d say the main options are:

        a) Israel can die.
        b) Israel can kill the Palestinians.
        c) Israel can cleanse the nearby area of Palestinians.
        d) Israel can for the short term rule a hostile Palestinian population and long term convert them.
        e) Israel can for the long term rule a hostile Palestinian population via a colonial system.
        f) Israel can terrorize the Palestinian state into reorienting their foreign policy long term (USA and Mexico for example).

        Those are the options under consideration. So our debate would then reduce to (d) vs. (e) vs. (f). Tell me if you agree so far.

        4b) On top of all that, there is a second dimension. I’d disagree that the structure you propose is a best case two state solution for either party. I’d propose some alternatives and slowly work through what the objectives are in terms of Israel’s interests.

        Certainly, it would take multiple generations at the very minimum for any such transformation of Palestinian consciousness to take place. 50 years? 100 years? So how could these Palestinians be made full Israeli citizens before this near-miraculous Palestinian-conversion-to-Zionism was completed?

        There basically are two arguments.
        5a) How do regimes change the idealogical orientation of populations? How does North Korea, Stalin’s Russia, China, America’s conversion of the population away from Communism in Latin America… work? To a great extent I think what you are arguing is that concentrated state terror is not an effective way of changing mass public opinion away from a position that a powerful state finds threatening. And I can point to historical record and examples of its success.

        I guess we can go a couple places depending on exactly what the point of disagreement is. I’m still not clear.
        i) How individual humans form their opinions and how these can be changed i.e. how brainwashing, propaganda… work. In short why anybody believes in anything.

        ii) How powerful states can use these mechanisms to shape public opinion. How states can deliberately change the ideology of their population. How propaganda and brainwashing work.

        iii) How this can be applied on a large scale. How totalitarianism and other such systems of mass influence work.

        5b) Given that Israel can change the ideology of the Palestinian population what’s the optimal time frame? Does it make sense to do it fast or slow?

        If we consider a scale of Zionism from 0 to 100 with 0 being your typical Saudi Arabian and 100 being Netanyahu I’d say the West Bank Palestinians are about a 15. Lets’s say that 70k Israelis working as part of a colonial administration can use mass persuasion techniques raise the Zionism of Palestinians on the West Bank from a 15 to a 40 over 10 years. Doing it that fast is going to involve the entire population going through a process of reeducation center with heavy terror and a complete collapse of social institutions (church, extended family, social structures…) for 2-3 years. It is going to mean a total takeover of Palestinian society at the most intimate levels. It may mean huge chunks of the populations shuffling through “reeducation centers” where they are exposed to even more intense persuasion. And it might mean outright killing a few percent of the population.

        Conversely a more gradual process many of the same steps are done but there is much less resistance thus less need for terror and violence. It is much easier to make sure Islam isn’t passed successfully from generation to generation and then isn’t passed at all, then to erase knowledge of Islam and affection for it from an active practitioner. But such a system might move the Palestinian average by only 0.5 per year.

        Which is better? I’m going to go on the side of long but it is a choice. Recruiting 70k people who are drawn towards totalitarianism from the Israeli population, training them in totalitarian methods of population reorientation, giving them a decade experience with them might have some inadvertent effects on how Israel is internally governed. :) Israel already has some strongly non-democratic tendencies I’m not sure it is in the interests of Israelis to supercharge them. On the other hand Israel does seem to have tremendous patience and the ability to maintain government strategies across administrations.

        I’m going to lean towards the slow approach though if someone wanted to go fast I can see that as a reasonable position. So 3 generations till you have large numbers of converts and lots of intermarriage and 5 till essentially the West Bank is fully Zionized.

        6) and that very experience of apartheid oppression and humiliation would guarantee that no such conversion would ever take place.

        I don’t think that’s true. Most colonial administrations are interested in using the country to get stuff. For example British are in India for cotton, for opium… If they could have gotten the cotton and the opium without the colonization at a lower price they would be happy. Because this is mainly a financial arrangement the colonies need to be run profitably which means there cannot be a tremendous amount of investment in:

        a) The quality of the colonial administration
        b) Winning the loyalty of the population.

        Israel conversely doesn’t want stuff from the West Bank. They would be primarily interested in winning the loyalty of the population. That’s much closer to your typical dictatorship than your typical colonial administration. This dictatorship would have the benefit of being able to operate at a financial loss long term (i.e. the Israeli economy pumping money into the colonial administration). I can’t see how such a government couldn’t easily come to be adored.

        There are dictatorship whose population is loyal. China is a great example. And China does not have nearly the advantages the Israeli colonial administration would have.

        7) You say Jews will have to take the Tsar’s perspective politically= they will have to become horrible oppressors ; and you say the Palestinians will have to suffer like the Jews. So, let’s be honest—THAT is your realistic assessment and prescription for Israel, not the nonsense about Israel making millions of Palestinians citizens with full civil rights.

        Those are two different things.

        What I think should happen. What I’d like to see happen. What I believe in is the gradual conversion of the Palestinians. I think it is considering the alternatives the most humane solution and the solution that is most likely to be seen as morally legitimate long term by Israel’s neighbors. Moreover it answers the hopeless of the Israeli left where they don’t believe there is any alternative to two state solution other than a stint of apartheid and then the end of Zionism.

        On the other hand, what I think is most likely to happen is petty brutality and slow ethnic cleansing. I think Naftali Bennett represents something like the current consensus. Annex area C and tine pieces of area B. Let the Palestinians govern area A as a “state”. Have the conditions deteriorate and they will leave.

        8) But you were also smart enough to realize that your prediction and “therapeutic” recommendation that “Jews will become Tsars, and Palestinians become Jews” is simply too morally objectionable

        There is a long pyschoanalysis in your post. It was funny and well written. But there are a lot of things I’d object to in your mind reading as not being my opinion Virtually every sentence is wrong. It isn’t going to advance our dialogue much if you assume I don’t actually believe what I’m saying.

        For example. I’d say that the Tzar situation is arguably what’s already happened. That’s the situation today in the West Bank. It isn’t a recommendation it is simply a statement about the current status. The question is where things go from here. It was therapeutic for Israel to see the world from the Tzar’s point of view. But that’s happened. Now the question is what do we want to see happen.

        9) –you need to fully embrace the denial of western humanistic values, of western-style liberal democracy; fully embrace your ultra-nationalism;… Be a man and embrace your inner Kahane!

        I’m not actually an “ultra-nationalist”. I’m just a moderate nationalist. I think the Israeli left tends to be too influenced by the European left and thus well below the global norm. I also approve of western-style liberal democracy and the humanism it allows. I don’t secretly disagree with it. I’m just realistic about what it makes it possible.

        The USA is free because not merely because of our values but because of our military providing a shield to the west. We can be free because the CIA is murdering Al-Qaeda in Pakistan. Israel can be free because through violence and terror Hamas and al-Aqsa Martyrs were stopped. I want a democratic Israel. But I know that the only currency that you can pay for land in is blood.

      • American
        December 28, 2013, 10:08 am

        ” Until you can name a world power who is willing to take on substantial risk of war to stop Israel no one is stopping them”…moron

        It wouldnt take a war to stop Israel. Sanctions on and ceasing of any aid to would put Israel belly up in less than a year.
        But as far as ‘risk’ in a war with Israel both the US and Russia could end its existence with one small nuke before Israel could open its first silo door to launch anything.
        The only thing you’ve got for protection is the bought politicians in the governments zionist have infiltrated—-if you lose those you’re done for for all practical purposes.

      • Ramzi Jaber
        December 28, 2013, 11:34 am

        @Walid, the zionists are really not offering 100% EQUALITY. they are not doing it because they know that (with a few exceptions) palestinians – whether christians or moslems – will NEVER be zionists of judaized. so they pretend to offer 100% equality just like they did with pre-1948 palestinians in nassrah (nazareth) and other palestinian towns and villages. zionists were never able and will never be able to erase palestinian culture from palestine. and why they don’t offer true 100% EQUALITY? because zionists know deep down that jewish and democratic does not work and will never work. it’s an oxymoron. so the only thing that will work is a secular state with respect to all three religions. and that is what the zionists are fighting against.

      • Ramzi Jaber
        December 28, 2013, 11:40 am

        @MHughes976, personally, i do not believe that mass judaization of palestinians is an actual zionist program because it is neither realistic nor achievable. the zionists are smart and they know this. their true program is as follows:
        – the judaization of the great al quds (jerusalem) region which includes beit lahem (bethlehem) and other neighboring areas
        – the total colonization of all palestinian hills and the jordan valley
        – the total colonization of all “entry” points into palestine (land, sea, air)
        – the total colonization of all resources particularly water and possible oil reserves

        effectively judaizing what they deem strategic and forcing palestinians to leave due to suffocating colonization and once they control that they effectively control all of palestine.

      • JeffB
        December 28, 2013, 11:16 pm

        @American

        It wouldnt take a war to stop Israel. Sanctions on and ceasing of any aid to would put Israel belly up in less than a year.

        Run the numbers and you tell me how that plays out. Look at the GDP of Israel, the amount of lost aid, the effect of sanctions. Give me your scenario that induces bankruptcy that fast.

        But as far as ‘risk’ in a war with Israel both the US and Russia could end its existence with one small nuke before Israel could open its first silo door to launch anything.

        That’s false and was false since the 1970s. Israel developed a strong 2nd strike capacity during the Carter administration. It has improved substantially since then.

      • JeffB
        December 30, 2013, 10:41 am

        @Ramzi

        replying up a level

        we [the Palestinians] are detrmined. we are robust. we are steadfast. these are not empty slogans but facts on the ground

        I couldn’t disagree with you more about the facts on the ground. I think if you compare the facts on the ground in 2013 to 2003, 1993, 1983, 1973, 1963, 1953, 1943, 1933, 1923, 1913 you see a solid line of a successful colonization program. The Palestinians in 1933 the Palestinians were strong and steadfast. They couldn’t stop the flood of immigrants from Germany in 1935. And they lost the 1936-9 war despite their steadfastness. In 1973 Israel had barely scraped by, Arafat was being hailed and getting his chance to speak at the UN and the second most hostile President to Israel the USA had ever had was getting close to assuming office. But over the next decade the Palestinians get involved in the Lebanese civil war, while Israel got Nasser off their back forever.

        But let’s move beyond the ground. I guess if you believe you are going to win there isn’t much to talk about. Obviously victory is superior to any agreement you are likely to get.

        But let’s assume I hit you in a moment of doubt. During one of those moments assume that Israel offered you full citizenship: voting rights, housing rights, educational subsidies, full participation in the economy on equal terms…. In exchange they demanded full loyalty to the state that means serving in the IDF, sending your children to Zionist schools, adoption of Israeli media… Would you accept?

  2. amigo
    December 26, 2013, 9:40 am

    Israel/USA looking for a fall guy.

    Ah yes, those far reaching offers, or sorry, was that proposals.

    Deja Vu all over again.

    Will it work for the zios one more time ?. Will the time worn slogan ,”Palestinians never miss !!!blah, blah , blah, pull the wool over the worlds eyes.

    I somehow doubt it this time around.

    • Hostage
      December 26, 2013, 6:22 pm

      According to Ma’an:

      Abbas articulated his exact position on the peace agreement, which were as follows:

      – Abbas would accept a Palestinian state with the entirety of East Jerusalem as its capital, with limited land swaps as long as the lands being traded were of equal value.

      – He would accept an incremental withdrawal of Israeli troops from Palestinian land, allowing them up to three years to leave.

      – He would reject the idea of any permanent Israeli military presence in the Jordan Valley, but would welcome an international peacekeeping presence.

      – He would refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

      – He would reject any interim agreement, calling instead for a final solution.

      – He would reject any proposal that required Palestine to be an unarmed state, but said he would not get involved in an “arms race.”

      Sbeih said the Arab League sent Kerry an urgent message that detailed the League’s vision of the peace process.

      link to maannews.net

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 12:47 am

        “Abbas articulated his exact position on the peace agreement, which were as follows:”

        The problem is that Abbas is too reasonable. These positions should be the barely acceptable end product, not his first offering.

  3. Woody Tanaka
    December 26, 2013, 9:59 am

    Is anyone surprised? israeli government is culturally unwilling or unable to act in good faith, ever. And now, because the zios have destroyed the US political system, the “land of the free” will now propose that the Palestinian population be subject to a racist and Orwellian surveillance regime, manned by these same zios who are looking to oppress them forever.

    Remember when, rather than imprisoning people under such oppressive regimes, the US would go to war to free them from oppression such as this??? But then again, none of those evil regimes were, like the israeli evil regime, supported by zionist donors and voters. I guess if the US is going to defeat THIS evil, we will have to start by liberating the USA.

    • American
      December 26, 2013, 11:08 am

      I guess if the US is going to defeat THIS evil, we will have to start by liberating the USA.”….Woody

      Yep.
      Get out your tar, feathers and pitchforks.
      Our government is inhabited by evildoers.
      They dont go away on their own.

    • Citizen
      December 26, 2013, 12:38 pm

      @ Woody Tanaka

      As Snowden pointed out over Xmas, it’s not only the Palestinians who are, will be subjected to a racist and Orwellian surveillance regime, but also Kerry and his fellow Americans. Further, the Israelification of the entire US police system and homeland security system at every level is well under way. Didn’t you see the way they went after OWS? The way the NPD was cross-trained by Israelis? In Philadalphia? In Texas, etc? The Boston freeze of its population to capture what was spotted by a lone individual, not the cops and security guys? The way the annual SWAP thing in US is attended by both US cops and Israeli border patrol? The way ADL brags about how its brought about fantastic cooperation and cross training between the US and Israeli cops? The Palestinians are the guinea pigs; Israel is the practical scientist; the US has looked to Israel ever since 9/11 as to how to handle terrorists and infiltrators. The 1% is totally on board, a government backup for the security forces they already hire to secure their ill-gotten gains comfortably behind their gated communities. More walls are always better, eh?

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 26, 2013, 1:03 pm

        Citizen, I think you are right. I think there is a common headwater that has led some elements in the US to embrace the zionists in Palestine and the oppression of Americans in the US. They must all be fought.

      • American
        December 26, 2013, 1:52 pm

        @ Citizen

        That about describes it.
        I often ask myself often why I even bother to follow US-Isr-I/P every day or week.
        Because I believe the only questions left re Israel & the US and therefore Palestine are:
        Will the majority American public become aware of what you describe?
        What will precipitate or what will the ‘event’ be that brings on their awareness?
        And the last question, what will they do about it?
        I believe whatever the ‘event’ is will determine the American public’s reaction and that there will have to be an event for the truth to come out.
        I also believe Israel and the zionist will eventually create that event or a series of disaster events.
        Because they believe their control over the US is absolute no matter what they do to the US or anyone else.

      • Citizen
        December 26, 2013, 7:13 pm

        @ American

        Yep. More sanctions motorcycle on Iran points the way, with side-car, virtual wedding to Israel’s attack on Iran. Otherwise, or additionally, there’s a myriad of pre textual war options akin to Hitler’s dressing his troops in Polish uniforms and attacking his own troops at the Polish border. Remember what the Israelis did when pretending to be Egyptians? And the whole lead up to the ’67 war? Nobody in the US mainstream media will tell the US public about this Golem on American roller-skates, prepared by AIPAC.

      • Daniel Rich
        December 27, 2013, 2:56 pm

        With a ‘Help Israel’s Victory’ fundraiser well underway the ‘American Israeli Defense Sector’ might soon find a new body to get into its cross hairs.

        With too many ppl being 1 paycheck away from poverty, I don’t think the IP travesty trumps the thought of what next to put on the table. In all honesty, I can’t blame them.

    • Walid
      December 26, 2013, 12:46 pm

      Woody, the Americans aren’t the only ones with their shoulders to Israel’s wheel, the Arab League is there to do its share of the pulling and pushing. The initial meeting between Abbas and the League’s Foreign Ministers to apprise them of the conditions of the offer was 6 days ago and other than a toned-down rejection, the League members have done nothing to express their solidarity with the Palestinian cause. Worse than that, since the Cairo meting of last Saturday, the executive of the Palestinian National Authority or that of Fateh has still to meet to discuss a plan of action to respond to the Israeli-American offer. Unfavourable things are happening to the Palestinians and they are doing nothing about it. Those remarks by Erekat about what Palestinians should have done is smoke and mirrors. What is not being discussed here is Israel wanting the release of Pollard and the recognition by the Palestinians of the Jewishness of Israel that would be the final nail in the coffin of the Palestinians’ RoR.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 26, 2013, 1:15 pm

        Walid, I don’t disagree with you at all. Look at it and see how many members of the Arab League have priorities with the US which they place above any interest those countries might have regarding Palestine. I don’t see this as an accident. Turning a blind eye as the zionists ravage Palestine and destroy the Palestinian people is the price that the zionist Lobby in the US has insisted that the US government quote to those Arab states for the US’s assistance regarding those other priorities. Breaking the back of the Lobby in the US will go a long way towards helping the Palestinians, on many levels.

      • Citizen
        December 26, 2013, 7:26 pm

        “What is not being discussed here is Israel wanting the release of Pollard and the recognition by the Palestinians of the Jewishness of Israel that would be the final nail in the coffin of the Palestinians’ RoR.”

        Yep, I noticed. Also, we’re not told just how much it will cost American taxpayers. And I bet Kerry has also promised Israel full access to that little exclusively US-manned super radar defense alert unit out there in the Israeli desert.

        Kerry’s praised his own plan, devised by high-ranking present/former American military officers, I’ve read, as the best blend of “Security & Sovereignty,” the former for Israel, the latter for Palestine.

      • Sibiriak
        December 26, 2013, 10:47 pm

        Walid:

        …the final nail in the coffin of the Palestinians’ RoR.

        Do you mean the ability of refugees return en masse to the meager territory that would be allotted to the new Palestinian “state”?

      • Walid
        December 27, 2013, 1:14 am

        Yes, Sibiriak, this has been an Israeli objection all along because whatever little land and meager water allocated to it by Israel could not sustain such a large influx of an additional 2 million refugees. Israel’s objection is exactly the same one that the Arabs had about incoming Jews to Palestine in 1948; the fear that such large numbers of incoming refugees could not be contained in such a small area and would eventually overflow into neighbouring countries. At the time, the Arabs had been spooked by the Jews’ open immigration policy and erroneously thought that tens of millions of Jews would flock to Palestine. Isreal ended up having to coerce Arab Jews from other countries into coming to Israel to provide the needed manpower to work the land vacated by the expelled Palestinians.

        As it is now, Israel is giving to the Palestinians on the WB so little of their own water so you can imagine the water situation in the event that an additional 2 million people were to be allowed back into a shrunk WB minus the Valley. It’s a sad reality that the Palestinians are not addressing and that the Palestinian leaders are keeping in the closet.

        Imagine the despair and the reaction of the close to half a million Palestinians in Lebanon’s squalid camps and another half million in Syria’s camps and another million or so in the Jordanian ones once the news is let out that there is no return to anywhere.

        The US Congress in 2004 passed a (non-binding) resolution asserting that the major settlements built over the 67 lines would not be removed, that Israel would not return to the 67 lines, that Palestinian refugees would not be returning to Israel and that Israeli hegemony over Palestinian borders, air space and territorial waters would remain after a pullout from the territories. Although non-binding, the resolution was a good enough moral victory for Israel from which the US would not backtrack. The resolution though mentioned that the wall was to be a temporary barrier, but Israel is known to pick and choose in agreements.

        The resolution on which only Senators Kerry and Lugar and 12 Representatives did not vote:

        link to govtrack.us

        and the Bush letter that formed the basis of the resolution:

        link to georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov

      • Sibiriak
        December 27, 2013, 1:48 am

        @Walid:

        [Sibiriak:] Do you mean the ability of refugees return en masse to the meager territory that would be allotted to the new Palestinian “state”?

        Yes, Sibiriak, this has been an Israeli objection all along because whatever little land and meager water allocated to it by Israel could not sustain such a large influx of an additional 2 million refugees.

        Thank you for spelling that out in detail. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I believe a lot of people think “right of return” refers to the right of refugees (and possibly their descendants) to return to territory which is now in Israel (pre-1967 borders). You, on the other hand, are talking about the ability of refugees to immigrate into a new Palestinian state in territory outside Israeli’s pre-1967 borders.

        The US Congress in 2004 passed a (non-binding) resolution asserting that the major settlements built over the 67 lines would not be removed, that Israel would not return to the 67 lines, that Palestinian refugees would not be returning TO ISRAEL….

        (emphasis added)

        That Palestinian refugees would not, in any significant numbers, be returning to Israel, has long been a given, has it not? The issue you are raising is about immigrating (not necessarily “returning”) to a new Palestinians state, i.e. about that state’s absorptive capacity, not the “right” to immigrate there per se.

        In any case, is it true that the Palestinians refugees/descendants in Lebanon, Syria etc.would actually prefer to immigrate to the new Palestinian state, as opposed to becoming full-citizens in the states were they now reside?

        Isn’t the latter option –full citizenship in Lebanon, Syria etc.–the more realistic one, if not the more desirable one, despite the political difficulties involved?

      • Citizen
        December 27, 2013, 3:47 am

        @ Walid
        Interesting. I’m sure Kerry now knows that Jewish settlers use nearly 600 litres of water each day. Palestinian water use does not even meet the minimum daily standard of 100 litres as recommended by the World Health Organisation. Of course Israel has been totally controlling and taking most of the OT water resources by military occupation orders since 1967. And over the last 13 years has effectively destroyed many Palestinian wells, and continues to do so. IP Water distribution rights are part of Oslo’s “final status” issues never reached; I wonder if Kerry’s plan accounts for this obvious need given how water has always been a major concern for those who live in the region.

      • Dutch
        December 27, 2013, 3:08 pm

        @ sibiriak
        ‘That Palestinian refugees would not, in any significant numbers, be returning to Israel, has long been a given, has it not?’

        No. The right of return for Palestinian refugees is beyond doubt, as pointed out by the Dutch Advisory Council on Int’l Affairs in its report ‘Between Words and Deeds’ (april 2013). http://www.aiv-advies.nl

        I hope we agree on the fact that US Congress’s resolution you mention has no legal status at all.

      • Walid
        December 27, 2013, 3:45 pm

        Sibiriak, sad to say it, especially that I don’t agree at all with it, but nobody wants the Palestinian refugees, and nobody wants to talk about it. Israel wants no part of them and neither do the current host countries of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. Even more painful to admit is that the Palestinians of the West Bank as represented by their current leaders also don’t want to have them returning to the WB. 3 years ago it was revealed in the Palestinian Papers that Erekat had said that diaspora Palestinians would not be voting on a final settlement, and he specifically mentioned those in the camps of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. It’s safe to assume that the final deal would not be including them since they would not get to vote on it. Abbas made a limp retraction of Erakat’s avowal, but this issue is never discussed by the Palestinians.

        They should be naturalized by their current host countries but Israel should be made to pay for it.

      • Walid
        December 27, 2013, 3:57 pm

        Dutch, yes the American resolution is non-binding, but it still gives Israel the moral strength of having the US backing it in its negating of the Palestinians’ RoR and of holding on to their large illegal settlements and any future control over Palestinian borders. And this is all that this resolution was intended to achieve. Immediately after it was passed, Sharon’s adviser, Dov Weisglass bragged that the resolution was enough to put the Palestinians and their cause in formaldehyde. It was thanks to this resolution that the thieving wall construction took off in full force and that stole more land on the West Bank than the amount of land that Israel had given up in its pullout from Gaza. So you are right that the resolution has nothing legal to it, but this has never stopped Israel.

    • bintbiba
      December 26, 2013, 1:08 pm

      Hey Woody T. Glad to see you’re back!
      Best wishes for the New Year…. to one and ALL!!!

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 26, 2013, 1:15 pm

        Thanks, bintbiba. Happy New Year to you too.

    • JeffB
      December 26, 2013, 5:43 pm

      Remember when, rather than imprisoning people under such oppressive regimes, the US would go to war to free them from oppression such as this???

      No I don’t but I’m only in my mid 40s. I certainly remember when the USA was funding all sorts of anti-Communist dictatorships. I certainly remember the USA training death squads. But nope don’t remember the days when the USA went around freeing people all over the planet from from friendly oppressive regimes.

      So what year was that?

      • Cliff
        December 26, 2013, 6:08 pm

        Israel provided assistance to death squads. Guns too. Training too.

        Hopefully you remember that too.

      • JeffB
        December 26, 2013, 8:03 pm

        @Cliff —

        Israel provided assistance to death squads.

        Yes i do remember it Reagan wanted to do something that congress wouldn’t let him. Israel assisted him in this and Reagan became a much stronger supporter of Zionist objectives as a result. Evangelical Christians who had been pro-Contra also became much more pro-Israel. That’s policy was Yitzhak Shamir and Shimon Peres doing their job: finding ways to make Israel useful to the powerful so as to advance their people’s interests.

        So yes I remember it. Israel will stop doing that stuff when it has peace.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 1:10 am

        “Yes i do remember it Reagan wanted to do something that congress wouldn’t let him. Israel assisted him in this ”

        LMAO. Yeah, well if that’s the way you get to sleep at night and still be on the side of a couple low-rent Hitlers like Shamir and Peres. Oh, they were only following (Reagan’s) orders.

        ” Israel will stop doing that stuff when it has peace.”

        LMAO. Yeah, because the Arabs are making this paragon of morality — this light unto nations — act in such evil ways (unless you look at all the evil stuff they do so that this “stuff” appears right up their alley…)

      • talknic
        December 26, 2013, 6:21 pm

        @JeffB “No I don’t but I’m only in my mid 40s……But nope don’t remember the days when the USA went around freeing people all over the planet from from friendly oppressive regimes.

        So what year was that?”

        Remember 1991 Kuwait? You’d have been in your 20’s at the time and living in a cocoon apparently link to google.com.au

        Remember 2001 Afghanistan You’d have been in your late 20’s or early 30’s at the time and still living in a cocoon link to georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov

        Remember 2003 Iraq? You’d have been in your 30’s at the time, still cocooned link to georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov

        Remember 2011 Libya? You’d have been in your 40’s at the time and apparently still living in a cocoon link to google.com.au

        “only in my mid 40s” WOW!! Lay off the ziocaine, it really does screw up ones memory

      • JeffB
        December 26, 2013, 7:12 pm

        Remember 1991 Kuwait? You’d have been in your 20′s at the time and living in a cocoon apparently l

        Kuwait was a war asked for by Saudi Arabia.

        Remember 2001 Afghanistan

        Yes had and were continuing to give assistance to the group that had attacked the United States so we did a regime change operation. That had nothing to do with freeing people. The current government is miserable and the people seem to want miserable governments there.

        Remember 2003 Iraq?

        Our policy in 2003 was regime change. How could the Iraqi regime be seen as friendly?

        Remember 2011 Libya?

        Same.

      • talknic
        December 27, 2013, 7:30 am

        JeffB Your statement

        nope don’t remember the days when the USA went around freeing people all over the planet from from friendly oppressive regimes.

        //Remember 1991 Kuwait?//

        “Kuwait was a war asked for by Saudi Arabia”
        Uh huh. Whatever you’re programmed to say

        THE SITUATION BETWEEN IRAQ AND KUWAIT
        “Letter dated 2 August 1990 from the Permanent Representative of Kuwait to the United Nations addressed to the President of the Security Council (S/21423) link to un.org

        Iraq was a friendly oppressive regime as long as it suited US interests link to www2.gwu.edu

        //Remember 2001 Afghanistan ? //

        ” so we did a regime change operation. That had nothing to do with freeing people”

        GW Bush said otherwise link to georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov and it was also a was a friendly oppressive regime. The US backed the Taliban against Russia, remember? BTW regime change via war contravenes self determination. It was not asked for by an Afghan majority representative.

        “Our policy in 2003 was regime change. How could the Iraqi regime be seen as friendly?”
        It was (ibid) Again regime change via war contravenes self determination. The US was not asked by an Iraqi majority representative

        //Remember 2011 Libya?//

        “Same”

        Not quite. It was also a friendly oppressive regime link to foxnews.com However regime change was eventually asked for by a Libyan majority representative.

      • Citizen
        December 26, 2013, 7:41 pm

        @ talknic
        He probably doesn’t remember when Wilson sent over the doughboys either, or when the US Army reached places like Buchenwald. The Battle of the Bulge? Trivial matters, I know.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 8:27 am

        @talknic

        The US backed the Taliban against Russia, remember?

        No we backed the Mujahideen against the Russians. After we left Afghanistan the Taliban evolved. We were sanctioning the Taliban under Clinton and had a somewhat hostile relationship.

        BTW regime change via war contravenes self determination. It was not asked for by an Afghan majority representative.

        Who cares? They assisted both before and after the fact on an attack on the United States. I, and I suspect about 99% of the American population doesn’t care what the Afghan people wanted they weren’t going to be allowed to keep that government.

        As for Iraq 2003 being friendly. If the United States congress passes a bill indicating the policy of the United States is regime change that’s as hostile as any relationship can get short of a full on authorization to use force to implement the policy which is what happened in 2003. If you can’t see that as not friendly then you are living in a bubble.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 9:48 pm

        @Woody

        The environmental issues which exist in Gaza aren’t the result of stupidity or mismanagement (that’s just racist nonsense on your part), it’s the result of purposeful and calculated zionist planning to destroy the Gaza people. Typical hallmark of the evil and inhumanity of the israeli government.

        The Zionist government is not the one that decided to pull too much water out and grow food. That was the Hamas government. The sun is in a hot cycle right now, is that the fault the Zionist government?

        Oh, spare me the reactionary “I’m so anti-PC” horseshit. You’re the one on record favoring an ethno-religious Apartheid state. No doubt you’d have a much different concept of fault if it were Jews who were suffering the fate of the Palestinians, rather than being their oppressors.

        No I wouldn’t. I try and have objective standards, and then from there root for a team. My standards aren’t biased by who I like more.

        Yeah, it is. It has a moral and legal obligation not to cause the suffering of the Gazan people that it is, especially given the fact that the damages is largely the fault of conscious israeli policy.

        What Israeli policy? Gaza is an independent. Israel has no obligation towards it anymore than it does towards Jordan or Egypt or Mali.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 28, 2013, 12:24 pm

        “The Zionist government is not the one that decided to pull too much water out and grow food. That was the Hamas government. ”

        The zios are the ones who are blockading Gaza preventing them from having normal commerce with the rest of the world and it is the zios who are terrorizing Gazan fishermen in their own waters. If the zios give the Gazans no good choice, it is the zios who are to blame.

        “No I wouldn’t. I try and have objective standards, and then from there root for a team.”

        “root for a team” Wow. Good to see that you’re taking the destruction of people’s lives so seriously. Although why I would expect one of you people to view other people’s suffering as a mere entertainment is beyond me. Such an outlook is well in keeping with your evil ideology.

        “Gaza is an independent. Israel has no obligation towards it anymore than it does towards Jordan or Egypt or Mali.”

        Yawn. Repeating lies don’t turn them true.

      • Sibiriak
        December 26, 2013, 11:37 pm

        JeffB:

        But nope don’t remember the days when the USA went around freeing people all over the planet from from friendly oppressive regimes.

        You’re right– post- WWII (and oftentimes before that) the U.S. has been an capitalist-militarist state imposing its power-elite’s values on the world, not the legendary defender of “freedom and democracy” depicted in propagandistic fables.

        [JeffB]… Reagan became a much stronger supporter of Zionist objectives as a result. Evangelical Christians who had been pro-Contra also became much more pro-Israel. That’s policy was Yitzhak Shamir and Shimon Peres doing their job: finding ways to make Israel useful to the powerful so as to advance their people’s interests.

        A very realistic assessment.

        [JeffB:] Kuwait was a war asked for by Saudi Arabia

        [...] we did a regime change operation [in Afghanistan]. That had nothing to do with freeing people.

        [...]Our policy in 2003 [regarding Iraq] was regime change.

        [...] Remember 2011 Libya? Same.

        More realism.

        [JeffB:] Israel will stop doing that [bad] stuff when it has peace.

        No. Here you abandon realism for fallacious propaganda.
        Israel has always chosen expansion over peace whenever possible.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 11:06 am

        @Sibiriak

        Glad we are agreeing on so much. Nice to not be arguing the obvious.

        [JeffB:] Israel will stop doing that [bad] stuff when it has peace.

        No. Here you abandon realism for fallacious propaganda.
        Israel has always chosen expansion over peace whenever possible.

        I’ll give you a good counter example, expansion into the Sinai. Israel had flirted with this off and on, but ultimately decided that a long term peace with Egypt was worth giving up their ambitions in the Sinai. Many of the very things that caused border strife in the 1950s are now welcomed by both sides in the 2010s. That’s a real fundamental policy shift.

        Now onto the crystal ball. It is my belief that they are fairly close their maximum territorial ambitions.
        I’d say another example is that I can’t think of any Israeli anymore who ever makes claims beyond the Jordan river. Transjordan has been completely dropped from Zionist thought. Obviously the Mediterranean is not a place for expansion. So the only possible border is the northern one where their current border vs. Litani river is in question. Mostly I suspect that unless things keep heating up with Lebanon Israel is likely to settle for their current northern border. And that’s it for borders. There is the problem of Gaza, but I suspect that the Israelis plan to use environmental / ecological destruction to resolve the demographic issue mostly and then take it somewhere around 2030. So I don’t think I’m being unrealistic in saying the current borders are Israel’s final borders.

        Going in the other direction, there is more and more acceptance of those borders. The fish in the Mediterranean have never claimed the land. Lebanon has never claimed territory in Israel’s northern border, though there is one little piece of land Lebanon wants that Israel is holding onto for Syria…. Egypt no longer makes any claims on the Negev and seems to like the current border. Jordan has been fighting hard not to have the West Bank. Syria is a real problem regarding Golan but mostly their fight is symbolic. I’ll grant this one might take one more war. So except for humanitarian concerns regarding the Palestinians (which will get resolved in a century one way or another) who is going to dispute the borders for much longer?

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 1:03 pm

        “There is the problem of Gaza, but I suspect that the Israelis plan to use environmental / ecological destruction to resolve the demographic issue mostly and then take it somewhere around 2030.”

        JeffB: what kind of sociopath are you that you call yourself a zionist and calmly talk about genocide like this — mass murder by destroying the environment?

      • libra
        December 27, 2013, 2:21 pm

        JeffB: I’d say another example is that I can’t think of any Israeli anymore who ever makes claims beyond the Jordan river. Transjordan has been completely dropped from Zionist thought.

        Well Jeff, my advice is to spend a little more time reading and learning at Mondoweiss before publicly airing your ignorance on such matters.

        Listen here from 10.45 to Jewish-American settler Marc Zell, a far more influential and connected Zionist than you’ll ever be, smugly state to Phil Weiss after he asks about Transjordan “right now that isn’t in play… but who knows, one day …”.

      • JeffB
        December 28, 2013, 2:10 pm

        @Peter

        Come on, Jeff, the Gaza Strip gets all of its imports through Israel (other than what is smuggled).

        That’s true. It is at war with Israel an is subject to an Israeli / Egyptian blockade. A blockade is not an occupation.

        The Israeli PM said a couple weeks ago that he was making sure that “we control the material that goes in and out of Gaza.”

        Again that’s a blockade.

        Israel also controls the Gaza Strip’s population registry, contrary to what you say about Israel’s “doing nothing to manage the internals”.

        The population registry is not an internal document. That’s a registry of who is authorized to cross from Israel into Gaza. The USA controls who crosses from the USA into France that doesn’t mean we are occupying France.

        B’Tselem has a page about how Israel controls the Gaza Strip:

        Which lists other things that have nothing to do with an occupation like tax revenue. I have some real question about their interpretation and applicability of those to begin with. It is not Israel’s job to collect a VAT for Hamas that’s Hamas’ job. Saying that Israel should be collecting taxes for Hamas is arguing for, not against, occupation.

      • Citizen
        December 28, 2013, 3:50 pm

        @ JeffB

        The trail of tears happened in the USA in the 19th Century. There’s been two world wars since then, along with the Nuremberg Trial and Geneva prodigy. Yours, is wishful thinking. “Never Again” is now a universal principle. Zionist Israel will lose the hearts and minds of all nations except the self-described Jewish nation state of Israel.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 2:15 pm

        @Woody

        “There is the problem of Gaza, but I suspect that the Israelis plan to use environmental / ecological destruction to resolve the demographic issue mostly and then take it somewhere around 2030.”

        JeffB: what kind of sociopath are you that you call yourself a zionist and calmly talk about genocide like this — mass murder by destroying the environment?

        It is not the Israelis who pulled that much water out of the Gaza aquifer. That was Hamas that demanded food independence for over 1.5m people without remotely enough water to support it.

        Unlike you, I’m not a racist who thinks the white/Jews/europeans (or whatever) are always at fault. I have the same expectations regarding competency of a Palestinians government that I would towards a European government. It was Hamas’ job when they took over Gaza to get a long term adequate food supply. They decided they would rather play the “Zionism isn’t legitimate government” (they agree with you) and to grow food without enough water to sustain their agriculture. As a result they have mostly destroyed their water supply. That’s on them. That’s their choice to fight Israel and not govern their country / territory appropriately.

        Israel is under no obligation to help a hostile government filled with hostile people not feel the consequences of their stupidity and mismanagement. There was not a single geologist in the world who thought they were doing the right thing. What do you think the Arab countries would do to Israel if instead of managing their natural resources effectively they had done something similar?

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 3:14 pm

        JeffB:
        None of that answered the quotation of what kind of sociopath you are.

        “It is not the Israelis who pulled that much water out of the Gaza aquifer.”

        The issue isn’t Gaza’s aquifer. That’s a symptom. The issue is israel’s targeted use of every means at their disposal to inflict harm on innocent people in an attempt to steal their land ethnically cleanse them. The environmental issues which exist in Gaza aren’t the result of stupidity or mismanagement (that’s just racist nonsense on your part), it’s the result of purposeful and calculated zionist planning to destroy the Gaza people. Typical hallmark of the evil and inhumanity of the israeli government.

        “Unlike you, I’m not a racist who thinks the white/Jews/europeans (or whatever) are always at fault. ”

        Oh, spare me the reactionary “I’m so anti-PC” horseshit. You’re the one on record favoring an ethno-religious Apartheid state. No doubt you’d have a much different concept of fault if it were Jews who were suffering the fate of the Palestinians, rather than being their oppressors.

        “Israel is under no obligation to help…”

        Yeah, it is. It has a moral and legal obligation not to cause the suffering of the Gazan people that it is, especially given the fact that the damages is largely the fault of conscious israeli policy.

      • Dutch
        December 27, 2013, 3:21 pm

        @ JeffB
        ‘Israel is under no obligation to help a hostile government filled with hostile people not feel the consequences of their stupidity and mismanagement.’

        The blockade of Gaza has the status of an occupation under international law. So yes, Israel is fully responsible for the welfare of the Gazans, and is obliged to let them return to their homes in Jaffa and other places.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 3:32 pm

        @Dutch

        replying up a level.

        The blockade of Gaza has the status of an occupation under international law. So yes, Israel is fully responsible for the welfare of the Gazans, and is obliged to let them return to their homes in Jaffa and other places.

        Under any sane definition Israel is no longer an occupying power for Gaza: it left, it is doing nothing to manage the internals, it aims for minimal contact… A blockade does not create an occupation, otherwise the UN was occupying Iraq 1990-2003. For that matter Egypt also participates in the blockade, why aren’t they an occupying power?

        The UN’s position on this is just stupid.

      • Citizen
        December 28, 2013, 3:56 pm

        @ JeffB
        Internationally illegal Jewish Israeli settlers take native Palestinian water at at a ratio of 6 to 1. Jews swim in their swimming pools, the native Palestinians don’t have decent drinking water.

      • Citizen
        December 29, 2013, 11:44 pm

        The Israeli government gives the water resources of occupied Palestinian land to Jewish settlers there in the ratio of 6 to -1.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 9:39 pm

        @libra

        Up a level

        Listen here from 10.45 to Jewish-American settler Marc Zell,

        Excellent counter example! Fair enough. But while that certainly disproves none, the fact it ain’t talked about much means it is mostly a dead topic. I think it is fair to say the Jordanian border is safe. And besides no border is ever permanently safe.

      • Peter in SF
        December 28, 2013, 6:18 am

        Under any sane definition Israel is no longer an occupying power for Gaza: it left, it is doing nothing to manage the internals, it aims for minimal contact

        Come on, Jeff, the Gaza Strip gets all of its imports throughIsrael (other than what is smuggled). The Israeli PM said a couple weeks ago that he was making sure that “we control the material that goes in and out of Gaza.
        link to pmo.gov.il
        Israel also controls the Gaza Strip’s population registry, contrary to what you say about Israel’s “doing nothing to manage the internals”.
        B’Tselem has a page about how Israel controls the Gaza Strip:
        link to btselem.org

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 12:18 am

        “No I don’t”

        Oh, I’m not surprised. You’ve demonstrated a rather shaky grasp of history. (And you’re clearly ignorant of this new thing called sarcasm, too.)

        “But nope don’t remember the days when the USA went around freeing people all over the planet from from friendly oppressive regimes.”

        Well, to call the zionist entity “friendly” to the US is a laugh. Murdering the crew of the Liberty and running a spy to steal the most sensitive military secrets and then having the unmitigated gall to connive to get him released, not to mention using various useful idiots, fifth columnists, and traitors to undermine US foreign policy is not the acts of a friendly state.

        But if you knew anything about history you would know that every major and most minor military intervention the US has engaged in since the Mexican War has been premised on freeing people from tyranny. Of course it’s all lies. The US has supported many evil regimes, including the Judeo-fascists occupying Palestine.

      • Sibiriak
        December 27, 2013, 9:22 am

        Woody Tanaka:

        Well, to call the zionist entity “friendly” to the US is a laugh.

        Israel, by and large, has been quite “friendly” with the U.S. power structure, no doubt about it. Of course “the U.S.” is not synonymous with “the US power structure”, although often tacitly assumed to be.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 1:34 pm

        “Israel, by and large, has been quite “friendly” with the U.S. power structure”

        Which is why I did not mention the power structure.

  4. Krauss
    December 26, 2013, 10:38 am

    Gaza 2

    That is their aim.

    A population permantently sealed-in. This is why Netanyahu smiled so much when he met with Kerry last time, because Kerry, post-AIPAC aides moving into his team, has given up on even pretending to be neutral.

    Let’s see if Abbas the collaborationist gives in.
    He can have his own little fiefdom, his own little Bantustan.

  5. seafoid
    December 26, 2013, 11:19 am

    Maybe there was no decent healthy sustainable way to move on from the Shoah. They executed Eichmann but in many ways he was their inspiration.

    • Woody Tanaka
      December 26, 2013, 11:31 am

      “Maybe there was no decent healthy sustainable way to move on from the Shoah.”

      Sure there was: To identify what it was that actually caused it, and not do that. And what ultimately caused it was a people deciding that they did not have to respect the rights of other people.

      • seafoid
        December 26, 2013, 11:36 am

        But Jewish leadership is very poor and has been for some time.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 26, 2013, 12:01 pm

        “But Jewish leadership is very poor and has been for some time.”

        Then that’s the problem, and not a lack of a “decent healthy sustainable way to move on from the Shoah.”

      • seafoid
        December 26, 2013, 12:37 pm

        Judaism is definitely the problem. Completely inept at managing people.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 26, 2013, 12:44 pm

        “Judaism is definitely the problem. Completely inept at managing people.”

        I don’t see that Judaism is a problem at all. That these people happen to be Jews is not particularly relevant in my mind to how they’ve responded to the challenges put to them. If someone hasn’t responded well, it is that person’s issue, not their religion or ethnicity.

      • Citizen
        December 26, 2013, 12:50 pm

        @ Woody
        The Jewish leadership only cares about what it thinks is good for the Jews. It’s short-sighted. That’s how Jewish history is made, along with the rest of world history. Or is it? We all know the Jewish people have survived extinction more than any other group of people, right? America’s had a short life, in comparison. And it doesn’t look like it will last much longer, comparatively speaking. So, what’s the lesson to learn here?

      • American
        December 26, 2013, 1:09 pm

        In my reading of Jewish history, the Jews started off with Rabbi leaders like Bush the younger, who told the tribe they were hated for ‘who they were’ or ‘for their superitory and not for anything ‘they did’…and this belief stuck.
        Which then of course put no restrictions on and relieved them of any moral responsibility in what they did to the other…its all justified…drones and bombs away.
        Keep getting led over the cliff time after time because they wont ‘revolt’ against ‘their own’ in the way less tribal populations do.

      • Citizen
        December 26, 2013, 7:47 pm

        @ Woody
        The biggest problem is nobody with any significant power will focus on fixing the American political campaign funding system. That’s because it’s the source of every congress critter’s power. And there’s it’s product analogy with not fixing the IRS Code.

      • ziusudra
        December 27, 2013, 12:54 am

        Re.: seafoid,
        ……Judaism is definitely the problem…..
        Every mythology & religion hijacked the freedom of its people first.
        . The ancient Egyptians Priests.
        . The Scribe Pharisees.
        . The Priests of the temporal power of Catholocism.
        . The political hijacking of Islam right after the death of Mohammad & its removal to Damascus.
        . The weak, failing thrust of the Protestant Priests in Holland in the 17th C.
        Worldly power was always the basis of spiritual power.
        Mythology or Religion w/o Military enforcement cannot be sustained.
        Today’s Religions, all three, are nothing but Mythologies of other culture’s deeds &/or stories, fantasies or truths to assist Mankind in his survival having matured into ideological concepts where the spiritual substance has disappeared.
        Happy N.Y. & much tks for very your much appreciated Output.
        ziusudra
        PS
        For Spirituality, seek out the Monk not the Priest.
        For Religion donate $ to your Politicians & Military.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 1:07 am

        Citizen,

        you are right. Those who have the power to control the government are those who we need to get out of government, but they’re also powerful enough to block those efforts. It’s going to require the people — the Real American People — to rise up and take their country back.

    • Citizen
      December 28, 2013, 4:03 pm

      @ seafoid
      It’s a Hannah A given that banal evil is doing your Kant moral imperative duty; nobody has done more in this arena than Zionist Israel. Gott is mit uns,

  6. Ramzi Jaber
    December 26, 2013, 11:21 am

    one hopes that this is just zionist propaganda to try to get their way.

    if not, then this is a non-starter. just imagine, the usa completing the illegal zionist prison.

    but what seems to be clear, is that kerry’s/allen’s “security ideas” are biased heavily towards the zionists. again, a non-starter.

    president abbas reportedly wrote to president obama following that infamous “bad” meeting with kerry stating the following:
    – no to the presence of any Israeli soldier in the Jordan Valley
    – no to a demilitarized state
    – no to any deal that does not include all east Jerusalem as capital of Palestine
    – no to recognizing Israel as a Jewish state
    – no to any interim agreement

    let’s hope this is true and that president abbas sticks to it!

    • Woody Tanaka
      December 26, 2013, 11:34 am

      “kerry’s/allen’s “security ideas” are biased heavily towards the zionists.”

      Of course. At this point, it must clear to all that Kerry’s role is to take dictation from Netanyahoo and to spew it out when instructed. He couldn’t be more israel’s puppet if Netanyahoo’s hand was stuck up Kerry’s a**, operating Kerry’s jaws from the inside like Kermit the Frog.

    • JeffB
      December 26, 2013, 5:54 pm

      @Ramzi

      let’s hope this is true and that president abbas sticks to it!

      And then what?
      a) President Abbas refusing negotiations. That doesn’t bother the Americans much.
      b) Bypasses negotiations and goes the UN. Israel responds with a settlement building spree.
      c) Abbas asks for a halt and is told he needs to be reasonable.
      d) The Israelis make proposals. Abbas doesn’t like them so asks for US proposals
      e) The US Secretary of State, former head of the US Senate foreign relations and a former presidential candidate agrees to do this. Writes and puts forward a proposal. Abbas tells him to stick it where the sun don’t shine.

      What do you think happens next that is good for Palestinians?

      • Ramzi Jaber
        December 28, 2013, 9:57 am

        it’s simple really.

        – icc/icj will make the lives of zionists hell. you might argue un has no teeth but you’ll feel the impact.
        – bds will intensify and impact your pockets and lives.
        – us congress will start to lose patience with aipac as they realize they got fooled for years.
        – zionist regime will be known as the only criminal apartheid rule in the 21st century, accelerating the above

        all of this will lead to a 1S1P1V reality – 1 state, 1 person, 1 vote – where all christian, moslem, and jewish citizens will live equally in the democratic State of the Holy Land. zionism, an outdated racist ideology, will be thrown into the dustbin of history once and for all.

        so don’t wish us away. you have been trying to do that for years. we are even stronger and more determined than ever.

        just remember: the impossible remains the impossible until it becomes possible.

      • Citizen
        December 28, 2013, 4:18 pm

        @ JeffB
        You are right, the Americans need to kill their current political campaign finance system, which has turned the USA into a plutocracy. Wanna help get the word out? Or do you love it like Shelly Adelson?

  7. seafoid
    December 26, 2013, 11:25 am

    Don’t call it a jewish state. Call it a jewish state of untreated trauma. Israel has a death wish.

    • Citizen
      December 26, 2013, 1:01 pm

      @ seafoid
      But of course Israel thinks it has an expansive life wish. You’re forgetting that world Goydom is always arrayed against it, and God promised all of Greater Israel to the Jews. If you merely mean to imply that Kerry knows the natives over there are expendables, while the colonialist are not, well, ok. Nothing will change unless Kerry and Obama decide to really question Israel’s basic premise that Israel’s view of its own security needs is justification for any stance it takes on the peace plans, no matter how much innocent Palestinians pay for that. What other country besides Israel , including any long time US ally, gets to never feel the sting of US sticks, and always gets US carrots? Anybody?

      • seafoid
        December 26, 2013, 2:23 pm

        Eventually Americans are going to drop Israel. It is a nice imperial fantasy but in reality Israel is only possible thanks to us military power and cheap oil. The bibi notion that Israel can decide its own future is deluded. Obama isnt going to drop it but a successor will decide it has outlived its usefulness.

      • Citizen
        December 26, 2013, 7:55 pm

        @ seafoid
        Sorry, I don’t see anybody trotted out by any of the political race horse betters as a likely future POTUS that will withstand AIPAC. Your hope must be based on the unintended consequences of a war on Iran.

      • seafoid
        December 27, 2013, 2:39 am

        Long term is very long, Citizen. American politics have been trivialised for ages. The politically declared importance of Israel to life in small town Idaho would be a good example. It is all built around lobby money and the lobby needs stability and the absence of genuine politics to function. Maybe the bots will get another 20 years to completely destroy the credibility of Judaism. But will Israel be feasible when Americans understand climate change and the news reaches the Beltway? No. And will Israel find any regional support? I doubt it.

      • JeffB
        December 26, 2013, 5:58 pm

        @Citizen —

        What other country besides Israel , including any long time US ally, gets to never feel the sting of US sticks, and always gets US carrots?

        England, France, Belgium, Canada, Thailand, most african countries.

      • Citizen
        December 26, 2013, 8:01 pm

        @ JeffB
        And what people does each of these countries belligerently occupy and whose land do they currently take to settle on? And how much each get in unconditional foreign military aid, plus interest? Which one, if any, gets an average of $8.5 Million per day in such aid? And which ones have never fought alongside the US military in a modern war?

      • JeffB
        December 26, 2013, 9:43 pm

        @Citizen

        That wasn’t the question. The question was, “What other country besides Israel , including any long time US ally, gets to never feel the sting of US sticks, and always gets US carrots?” Don’t raise the issues get an answer and then completely change topics. There are other US allies who have taken over countries. There are other US allies who get much more aide (as I’ve pointed out to you), far more than $8.5m.

        As for never fought alongside the US military what heck do you think just happened in the war against Al-Qaeda? Who do you think was active in Kurdish Iraq during our Iraq occupation keeping it a safe haven, especially from Syrian intellegence? What one country provides additional translations services for NSA when we run short of Arabic speakers with security clearance to help in the war against Al-Qaeda? Who do you think right now is working with the MEK so we have a domestic operations base if we need to invade Iran? For that matter who do you think sabotaged their reactors and assassinated their scientists? Who do you think is helping us contain the spread of chemical weapons to Hezbollah from Syria? And for that matter who do you think has fought Hezbollah, which after all killed hundreds of Americans.

        And let’s not even get into the cold war. Damn straight they have fought alongside America.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 1:17 am

        “Damn straight they have fought alongside America.”

        Nonsense. They maybe risked a papercut. That’s not fighting.

      • Citizen
        December 28, 2013, 4:22 pm

        @ JeffB
        I responded to your questions but this blog didn’t deem it fit to allow my response even though it was logical and absent personal attack on the messenger,

  8. amigo
    December 26, 2013, 11:25 am

    Slightly OT but,!!!!

    “The state is claiming that Palestinians who were the recent target of a “price tag” attack are to blame for their misfortune – because they failed to adequately protect their plot of land.” Amira Hass.

    link to haaretz.com

    This not a joke.

    Come on Mahane 1,2 or 3???.Tell us why this is not chutzpah.

    It doesn,t get much crazier than this.

    • Annie Robbins
      December 26, 2013, 11:35 am

      Jews who were the recent target of a “genocide” are to blame for their misfortune – because they failed to adequately protect themselves.

    • MahaneYehude1
      December 26, 2013, 4:00 pm

      @Amigo:

      Why do you call me to explain? I don’t agree with those “price tag” attacks and think the perpetrators are criminals. Try other one.

      • amigo
        December 26, 2013, 5:29 pm

        “Why do you call me to explain? I don’t agree with those “price tag” attacks and think the perpetrators are criminals. Try other one.”mahane 1,2 or 3???.

        Focus Mahane on the statement!!!.

        ““The state” is claiming .

        Got it now??.

        Now reply but this time stay focused on the real issue here.

      • MahaneYehude1
        December 26, 2013, 11:33 pm

        @Amigo;

        Don’t try to educate me. I said I don’t agree with those “price tag” attacks and think the perpetrators are criminals and I think that says all.

      • amigo
        December 28, 2013, 3:48 pm

        “Don’t try to educate me. I said I don’t agree with those “price tag” attacks and think the perpetrators are criminals and I think that says all.” mahane 1,2 or 3???.

        You need educating zio .

        It is the State of Israel which is claiming that the Palestinians are at fault because they did not protect their property from illegal squatter violence.

        Now do you get it numb skull.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 12:05 am

        “““The state” is claiming .

        Got it now??.”

        But how can that be, amigo????? Aren’t we always told that this is a modern, secular democracy?? Surely such a government wouldn’t EXCUSE racist banditry, would it??

        Unless, of course, such claims are lies…

    • Citizen
      December 27, 2013, 4:21 am

      @ JeffB

      RE: “The question was, “What other country besides Israel , including any long time US ally, gets to never feel the sting of US sticks, and always gets US carrots?”

      Yes, and that, my question, was raised in the context of what Israel does to the Palestinian people under the banner of Israel’s security needs. Go back and read my whole comment ending in my question, and answer it instead of sawing it off from its context as if I asked it in a vacuum.

      Do any of the countries you named engage in a brutal and exploiting occupation? No. Do they keep stealing land? No.

      And 1/3 of total US foreign aid goes to Israel and Egypt, most of it military aid; neither is a developing country. Further, while aid to Israel (at $2 for every $1 we give Egypt) is unconditional, aid to Egypt is only on condition Egypt keeps Israel happy as Israel’s border cop. link to vaughns-1-pagers.com

      It’s been well documented often on this blog that Israel is the number one recipient of US foreign aid in all of US history.

      • Citizen
        December 27, 2013, 4:29 am

        Also, please tell me where uniformed IDF troops and uniformed American troops fought side by side in battle against a common enemy, such as during the Cold War, or in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan?
        I didn’t need a reminder list concerning all the nefarious and illegal ways Israel has worked with the US, especially by units like CIA and Mossad. The war on terror is a hoax masking Imperial aims of both US and Israel.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 10:40 am

        @Citizen

        I didn’t need a reminder list concerning all the nefarious and illegal ways Israel has worked with the US, especially by units like CIA

        The CIA is American forces. You may not like them but fighting alongside the CIA is fighting alongside America. America doesn’t need Israel’s help in conventional engagements with a conventional army. What they want Israel for is stuff that USA isn’t better than them at doing or can’t do for political reasons.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 10:37 am

        @Citizen

        It’s been well documented often on this blog that Israel is the number one recipient of US foreign aid in all of US history.

        What is your estimate of the total cost of the Okinawa base? What is your estimate of the total cost of the USA deployment in South Korea? What is your estimate of the total cost of support for West Germany including troops, rebuilding and a massive nuclear support structure?

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 1:53 pm

        “What is your estimate of the total cost of the Okinawa base? What is your estimate of the total cost of the USA deployment in South Korea? What is your estimate of the total cost of support for West Germany including troops, rebuilding and a massive nuclear support structure?”

        And none of which are foreign aid. With the zionist Apartheid state, American taxpayer money gets taken from schools and school lunches, bridges and health care for the elderly and given to a bunch of deadbeats who give us nothing in return. Oh, well, except for murdering the crew of the Liberty, undermining our government and stealing our secrets (and having the gall to ask for the piece of trash to be freed. Both ingrates and tone-deaf.)

      • Citizen
        December 28, 2013, 4:32 pm

        @ JeffB

        Yor are very ignorant, or a terrible propagandist for Israel, the rogue state paid for by goy Dick and Jane Dufus:
        link to ifamericansknew.org

  9. Annie Robbins
    December 26, 2013, 11:49 am

    This arrangement, which has been previously reported elsewhere, would last from 10 to 15 years, and would be terminated only if the Israelis agree

    iow, never. it’s hard to believe the US could ever conceive palestinians would take this proposal seriously. the US should get out of the middle man business. as if israel needs a superpower to reinforce their permanent hold over all of palestine.

    • Walid
      December 26, 2013, 1:04 pm

      Annie, the 10-15 years arrangement being discussed today are referring to it as the “extension” and Palestinians aren’t happy at all about it; they can tell that it has a foul smell about it. The Palestinian negotiators will be having a tough time convincing the Palestinian people to accept the deal. They’ve been fooled enough times in the past and I don’t think this time it will work.

    • Citizen
      December 26, 2013, 1:04 pm

      @ Annie
      Abbas should have just kept hammering at the UN for higher UN status for the Palestinians. Kerry’s got until next April. Hard to imagine by next April, that Abbas won’t pursue UN status power.

    • JeffB
      December 26, 2013, 6:00 pm

      @Annie

      the US should get out of the middle man business.

      The USA would love to get out of the middle man business. But the USA is the only major power that has significant influence over Israel. So when Israel is “bad” the only place to effectually complain is the USA. Thus the USA adjudicates.

      Trust me, you don’t want the USA to get out of the middle and gave Israel a free hand.

      • Citizen
        December 26, 2013, 8:08 pm

        @ JeffB
        Trust me, if the USA keeps its UN SC veto out of the way, Israel’s free hand will quickly feel the backhand of UN and/or Western coalition forces, combined with Arab forces such as descended on Saddam to defend Kawait. BDS will be a given too.

      • JeffB
        December 26, 2013, 9:31 pm

        @Citizen

        You are a smart guy. You can’t really believe that. What Western country do you think is ready to go to war with Israel today but feels constrained from doing so because the Security Council isn’t on board? Come on. You are smarter than that comment.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 12:45 am

        ” What Western country do you think is ready to go to war with Israel today but feels constrained from doing so because the Security Council isn’t on board?”

        Who said anything about going to war? If you don’t think there are plenty of countries in Europe and elsewhere that would be fine with sanctioning that “shitty little country” that’s the cause of so much strife in the world, you’re delusional.

      • Citizen
        December 27, 2013, 4:36 am

        @ JeffB
        If the US quits using its UN SC veto to immunize Israel from accountability, Israel will keep doing what it’s been doing without suffering the consequences .You’re a smart guy, so go count all the UN GA resolutions regarding Israel that the US vetoed in the UN SC.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 10:49 am

        @Citizen

        If the US quits using its UN SC veto to immunize Israel from accountability, Israel will keep doing what it’s been doing without suffering the consequences .You’re a smart guy, so go count all the UN GA resolutions regarding Israel that the US vetoed in the UN SC.

        And then what? Assume the Palestinians have the same international situation as today but I’ll give them any 5, make it 25 “kike’s suck” resolutions passing the security council. OK now what? How does that change things?

        The Palestinians have 194 and the refugees are still living in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon… The Palestinians have 242 and Israel is still developing their settlements. Security council resolutions without a power wiling to enforce mean nothing, nothing. The USA veto is just a sign that they do not desire enforcement.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 26, 2013, 8:14 pm

        trust me, i do want them out. all the way out. we need to dump israel. they need to learn how to get along in the world without depending on US empowerment/protection/money/veto, everything.

      • Hostage
        December 27, 2013, 2:19 pm

        Assume the Palestinians have the same international situation as today but I’ll give them any 5, make it 25 “kike’s suck” resolutions passing the security council. OK now what? How does that change things?

        I guess you didn’t hear the news, but the Security Council isn’t limited to delegating its powers to “coalitions of the willing” to settle boundary and other international disputes. Earlier this year, the United Nations created its first ever offensive combat force – the “Intervention Brigade” to deal with the situation in the the Democratic Republic of Congo.

        So, there could be a Chapter VII resolution authorizing the establishment of a no-fly zone over Palestine and economic sanctions against Israel; a UN intervention brigade in the West Bank and East Jerusalem; direct humanitarian aid shipments to Gaza; and a Security Council referral of the Situation in Israel and Palestine to the ICJ and ICC.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 3:00 pm

        @Hostage

        but the Security Council isn’t limited to delegating its powers to “coalitions of the willing” to settle boundary and other international disputes. Earlier this year, the United Nations created its first ever offensive combat force – the “Intervention Brigade” to deal with the situation in the the Democratic Republic of Congo.

        Well first off this is a coalition of the willing. A bunch of African countries were going in with or without the Security Council so the Security Council decided to authorize it.

        In terms of the makeup of the force it is essentially 1100 troops each from Tanzania, South Africa and Malawi. The IDF is 50x the size and can up to 150x the size easily or 500x the size if Israel is genuinely threatened.

        So you are throwing 3400 3rd world infantry + some minor artillery troops up against a 1st world army that starts with:
        6 infantry brigades
        4 armor brigades
        1 artillery brigade
        the best small air-force in the world with over 700 active aircraft
        plus naval support.

        Let’s start with the basic question. How do they get within 100 miles of Israel alive? I’ll make it easier and give them the ability to magically teleport to anywhere in the country they want. How do you see them lasting an hour once the fighting begins? How does that army deal with Israeli armor? What can they do against air attack with that configuration?

        Heck, Hezbollah would crush the intervention brigade. They probably would beat Hamas, but even Hamas could give them a good fight. How is this even a remotely credible threat?

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 12:44 am

        “The USA would love to get out of the middle man business.”

        Oh, horseshit. The middleman business is all the USA has in today’s world. That’s all being a super power is.

        “But the USA is the only major power that has significant influence over Israel.”

        And the USA is the only power with any desire to cover up for israel’s crimes. Get the USA out of the picture and let international diplomacy and sanctions work.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 9:43 pm

        @Woody

        Not every blockade is an act of war. If it would destroy the power of the zionists in Palestine, it would be a blockade of peace.

        Agreeing with the cause of a blockade doesn’t change its nature from war. War doesn’t become peace because you agree with the cause. Seriously, how can you run around talking about morality when the most basic moral principle: what applies to me applies to others, escapes you.

        If it were up to me, it would be the navies of every nation on the planet.

        No in reality. I understand you would like the dragons of Endore to attack. I was asking for a reasonable sane discussion of a sanction regime that could happen in the real world.

        I’ll move on.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 10:50 am

        @Woody

        Who said anything about going to war? If you don’t think there are plenty of countries in Europe and elsewhere that would be fine with sanctioning that “shitty little country” that’s the cause of so much strife in the world, you’re delusional.

        OK then do the math. Israel’s trade balances are online. You put together whatever sanctions regime you want, assume Israel takes additional costs for displacement and show me how you get over 2% of Israel’s GDP or realistically even to 1% of their GDP.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 2:01 pm

        “OK then do the math. Israel’s trade balances are online. You put together whatever sanctions regime you want, assume Israel takes additional costs for displacement and show me how you get over 2% of Israel’s GDP or realistically even to 1% of their GDP.”

        The sanctions regime I want is total blockade. No israeli product, person or money gets in or out. Wouldn’t take to long for that economy to crumble.

      • JeffB
        December 27, 2013, 2:26 pm

        @Woody

        The sanctions regime I want is total blockade. No israeli product, person or money gets in or out. Wouldn’t take to long for that economy to crumble.

        That’s not a sanctions regime, a blockade is an act of war. A blockade requires a navy. In the case of Israel it is going to require a navy capable of surviving IDF attack. So whose providing those ships?

        Remember your claim “ Who said anything about going to war? If you don’t think there are plenty of countries in Europe and elsewhere that would be fine with sanctioning that “shitty little country” that’s the cause of so much strife in the world, you’re delusional.?” I don’t know any European country that has ever indicated any intention of blockade ever.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 3:00 pm

        JeffB:

        “That’s not a sanctions regime, a blockade is an act of war.”

        Not every blockade is an act of war. If it would destroy the power of the zionists in Palestine, it would be a blockade of peace.

        “A blockade requires a navy. In the case of Israel it is going to require a navy capable of surviving IDF attack. So whose providing those ships? ”

        If it were up to me, it would be the navies of every nation on the planet.

        ” I don’t know any European country that has ever indicated any intention of blockade ever.”

        Stay focused, make up your mind or go away. You want to know what sanctions regime I want? I gave it to you. I never said that any European state would blockade, I said they’d love to sanction it. And you’re a fool if you think otherwise.

  10. BillM
    December 26, 2013, 12:32 pm

    Of course, this is just the initial proposal. It grants Israel everything it wants before even discussing the final border and how many settlers will stay (the short answer: almost all). This is salami slicing by the US, force the Palestinians to agree to the principle of Israel troops and security control before actual negotiations take place.

    Just watch: once this step is done, the next step will be to force the Palestinians to agree to a “Jewish State” and waive the Right of Return before any actual negotiations can take place.

    Kerry, like everyone else, knows these negotiations will fail, the only goal is to get the Palestinians to give up as many points as possible, and then blame them for the failure. ABC is taking the lead on the blame game today:

    link to abcnews.go.com

    • Citizen
      December 26, 2013, 1:10 pm

      @ BillM
      Yes. So we have to wait until next April to have it officially concluded that the Palestinians have lost another opportunity to make peace with the always pliant Israelis who only want to keep doing good in this world. Given this foregone conclusion, anybody want to guess why Kerry is going through the motions other than because he loves his career and thinks the Palestinians just might buckle, that is to say, lots of perks for being in his position that will help him with his life style the rest of his life?

      • BillM
        December 26, 2013, 1:31 pm

        Kerry is going through the motions for a variety of reasons:
        1) It’s peace processing: it keeps the motions going to prevent any explosion while Israel slowly consolidates its position.
        2) It shows American leadership in the Middle East, temporarily releiving international pressure on both the US and Israel.
        3) As I noted above, there is a real drive to get Palestinians to agree to concession. Even with these talks doomed to failure, the concessions can be used as a starting point in future negotiations, and can be shown to the world to argue the Palestinians to really have any right to whatever they’ve waived (sovereignity, return of refugees, actual borders, removal of settlers).
        4) The negotiations need to continue until there is an easy point to blame the Palestinians for their failure.
        5) How can he stop? Now that this is started (and remember in Obama’s Cairo speech he made big claims about what he was going to do), how can Kerry declare failure? Someone else has to make the declaration.

      • Citizen
        December 26, 2013, 8:17 pm

        @ BillM
        Oh, I get it. A way to put Palestinian ambitions at the UN and international courts on hold, and try to bribe Abbas & Friends by offering them raises and offering the unexiled Palestinians a semi-regular loaf of bread and a bit more of their own water. Some lipstick but no pig.

  11. Justpassingby
    December 26, 2013, 1:01 pm

    Such sell out proposals would only possible with a puppet like Abbas in power. Shame on him and shame on Kerry that have ignored reality and international law!

    Step down Abbas for the sake of peace!

    • BillM
      December 26, 2013, 1:33 pm

      For the sake of peace. For the sake of law. For the sake of democracy. For the sake of accountability. For the sake of competence. For an end to corruption. For a simple breath of fresh air.

      There are a thousand reasons Abbas should step down (or be stepped down by the people).

  12. Denis
    December 26, 2013, 2:23 pm

    Ignoring the elephant in this room, ain’t we? It’s called $$$ talks.

    While the discussion on MW so often focuses on the $8M/day the US taxpayer sends to GOI, he/she also sends the PA a good chunk of change — about $110 per West Bank resident per year (vs $460/person/year sent to Israelis). Of course, Abbas and his buddies pocket the lion’s share of what Ma and Pa Ten-forty send them, but, still, pull US tax money out of the PA and it will slide back into the horrible recession that marked the 2nd Intifada. Just look at Hamas, which gets zilch USD.

    And the reason I say it is, Kerry’s position may look absurd from the POV of what is right, or what is fair, or how to solve this mess long-term, but look at the alternative from an economic POV (including Abbas’ personal bank accounts) before concluding it’ll never happen.

    Sure, Abbas said that although the Palestinians need USD, they won’t be pressured by the US economically. Right . . . as if they haven’t been pressured economically by the US for 60 years.

    link to jpost.com

    When the US was in its hopey/changey mode in 2009-2010, there might have been some reason to believe that a guy with Hussein for a middle name would be the person to do the right thing in Palestine. Forget that. Americans are still too far removed from hating the zio-Jews enough to change the politics sufficiently to make a difference. Until that shift happens, nothing will change for the better in Palestine.

    • talknic
      December 26, 2013, 5:42 pm

      @Denis ” Of course, Abbas and his buddies pocket the lion’s share of what Ma and Pa Ten-forty send them …. but look at the alternative from an economic POV (including Abbas’ personal bank accounts) before concluding it’ll never happen”

      The evidence of Abbas’s personal bank accounts if you please, I’d like to have a ‘look’ as you suggest ….. thx

      Otherwise I might end up ‘concluding’ that you’re simply spouting red heifer sh*te!

      For all the nonsense in the past about Arafat’s alleged siphoning off of funds, the final IMF audit found nothing whatsoever to incriminate Arafat

      In total, the Fund estimates, the amounts diverted from the official budget from 1995 until 2000, when the diversions stopped, may have exceeded $898m. IMF officials say $799m was returned to the PA, with the difference accounted for by investment losses………the bulk of the money diverted from the budget – including all the Swiss bank accounts – was either given back or invested in companies that became part of the PIF, an assertion backed by the IMF From the NY Times (SUBSCRIPTION REQUIRED)

      Since becoming transparent, Palestinian funds have been frozen by the US and Israel. Shrewd, yes. Devious, yes. Clever, yes. A thief, no!

      • Denis
        December 26, 2013, 7:04 pm

        t’nic, I know, I know. You are in total denial that any Palestinian would ever filch a dime. After all, they are the victims.

        Just to be clear about your position, are you denying that Abbas has not skimmed any $$$, or are you just trolling?

        You do the research — and just to get you started on the road to reality, simply Google “palestinian authority graft” and you will be rewarded with boat-loads of evidence as to what bunch of crooks the PA bosses are.

        Here is the real headline on the 2003 IMF Afarat investigation:

        IMF audit reveals Arafat diverted $900 million to account under his personal control

        link to electronicintifada.net

        @t’nic: “Otherwise I might end up ‘concluding’ that you’re simply spouting red heifer sh*te!”

        Beg pardon? Are we talking about a red cow, or about red “sh*te”? You’ve lost me.

        You have not addressed my point, which is that Abbas’ goals are not about what is right, but about revenue. Camp David, Oslo, Dayton, . . . all about revenue, not rights. Once the Palestinian people realize that, they will see that their goose is good and cooked. And that ain’t no red heifer sh*t.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 26, 2013, 7:37 pm

        denis, why are you using a 2003 link to rebut talknics 2005 blockquote? yours is outdated. can you at least address his comment with a more timely source? it’s been over 10 years and a different palestinian politician than your big catch (‘elephant in rm’). and here’s talknic’s 05 link unleashed link to ft.com

        or would that be a ‘no’? you don’t have any docs/evidence of abbas’s bank accounts?

        and just to be clear, are you saying kerry’s offer is more a reflection of arafat/abbas/fatah (or palestinian) graft/greed rather than abiding by israel’s will. i’m not quite following your pt.

        After all, they are the victims.

        Just to be clear about your position, are you denying that Abbas has not skimmed any $$$, or are you just trolling?

        is this your charm offensive? talknic is not a troll, he’s a regular (valued) commenter here. he asked you a reasonable question about an allegation you made. just cough it up, if you’ve got anything that is. i’d like to see it too.
        (and that’s not a defense of abbas/fatah/pa, it’s a request for evidence to back up your (elephant) allegation)

        and while your at it, what do they need indyk and ross for if it’s all just about shoving money at the pa? heck we could just ignore israel altogether if this was just about paying abbas off.

      • Denis
        December 27, 2013, 1:52 pm

        annie, predictable as vinegar in a dill pickle jar – when anyone offers the slightest sour comment about the Palestinians you will jump right in. Thanks for being there.

        The Palestinians are victims, as I say. (And I, personally, think you should use upper case in “Palestinians” out of respect.) They are getting beaten up on badly, we all know that. It has to stop, we all hope for that. But the Palestinians are not perfect, or faultless, or beyond criticism, least of all the likes of Abbas and Arafat. The ability to see only black (Israel) and white (Palestine) is one of the mass mental defects that complicates analysis of this entire problem.

        @annie: “denis, why are you using a 2003 link to rebut talknics [sic] 2005 blockquote?”

        annie, do you see a date on taklnic’s [please note punctuation] 2005 blockquote? Did you think I was actually going to buy a NYT subscription in order to read the crap talknic is throwing around in an attempt to divert the point of my comment? Do you think I was going to buy a FT subscription or sign up with them to read yours?

        talknic twisted the conversation into a funk about Arafat . . .whatever. I prefer not to be drawn into some loser pissing-match over whether Abbas and Arafat have skimmed funds from the Palestinians. T’nic refuses to deny that assertion, so we’ll go with it as true. The rest of the world knows it. Here is what the Palestinians themselves think. (Note the date is 7 years AFTER t’nic’s link – I know that’s important to you.)

        Palestinian Public Opinion Poll (44) by PSR Jul10.12

        (3) Domestic Conditions:

        Positive evaluation of conditions in the Gaza Strip stands today at 22% and in the West Bank at 30%

        Belief that there is corruption in public institutions in the Gaza Strip stands at 57% and in the PA institutions in the West Bank at 71%

        34% say there is press freedom in the Gaza Strip and 21% say there is press freedom in the West Bank

        25% say people in the Gaza Strip can these days criticize the authorities without fear and 29% say people in the West Bank can criticize the PA without fear

        Perception of safety and security in the West Bank stands at 55% and in the Gaza Strip at 58%

        Positive evaluation of the performance of Ismail Haniyeh’s government stands at 38% and Fayyad’s at 36%

        Level of satisfaction with the performance of president Abbas stands at 49%

        link to pcpsr.org

        @annie: “and just to be clear, are you saying kerry’s offer is more a reflection of arafat/abbas/fatah (or palestinian) graft/greed rather than abiding by israel’s will. i’m not quite following your pt.”

        annie, if you can handle the NYT and FT, surely you can handle my simple assertions. I am a simple person, I speak simply, sometimes I drool.

        Please go back, have another look at my comment. The elephant I have identified (which, being an elephant and such, it should be quite evident, which is why I use the elephant analogy) is this: What the Palestinian negotiators will or will not accept in these talks is determined by and large by the cash the Palestinians get from the US taxpayer, which is substantial, almost $2Bn in 2008.

        These negotiations have been one rolling, 60 year-long, cluster f&ck for the Palestinian people. Not coincidentally, the “leaders” of the Palestinians have become very wealthy over the last 60 years while the people have suffered economically. Notwithstanding t’nic’s paywall link to NYT, there is still $200M missing from Arafat’s accounts. I mean the dude is almost 10 years dead and they’re still looking for the money he stole.

        Contrary to t’nic’s irrelevant 2005 paywall link, here is one from Oct.2013 regarding a report by the European Court of Auditors. They are making the same point I am making. Excerpts for your benefit and t’nics:

        EU investigators who visited sites in Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank noted “significant shortcomings” in the management of funds sent to Gaza and the West Bank.

        These disturbing revelations followed closely on the heels of a report in Ma’an News on 10 October claiming that the Palestinian Authority’s (PA) anti-corruption commission – established in 2010 – was working to retrieve PLO-owned land registered to individual PLO leaders – according to commission chief Rafiq al-Natsheh.

        Natsheh’s remarks were made after comments by him in the Jordanian newspaper al-Dustour the previous week that PA officials were moving deposits from Jordanian banks to foreign accounts.

        “If suspects accused of stealing public money (are moving funds abroad), that falls within our jurisdiction, We will ask these countries to help us restore the stolen public money, Transferring money anywhere (abroad) will not prevent us from calling suspects to account and restoring that money,”

        According to al-Natsheh, some of the money and property – which was supposed to be have been deposited into public accounts when the PA government was established in 1994 – still remains in private hands.

        In the mean time Abbas, whose term ended 2009, refuses to allow the Palestinian people to hold general elections.

        Now, anyone who tells me these “palestinians” [your spelling, annie] ain’t crooks is full of t’nic’s “red heifer sh*t,” whatever that means – ask him/her. And anyone who says that the Palestinian people have not been getting consistently screwed at these negotiations for 60 years while the Palestinian leaders have gotten filthy rich, is double full.

        Just sayin’.

      • talknic
        December 26, 2013, 8:30 pm

        Denis ” I know, I know. You are in total denial that any Palestinian would ever filch a dime. “

        Er, no. I asked for evidence of your assertions. Which I notice you haven’t been able to provide. Instead you make inane accusations. How clever of you to show readers how ziopoopers operate

        “After all, they are the victims”

        The Palestinians have taken NOTHING of Israels. Israel has illegally acquired non-Israeli territory (UNSC res 242, 476 etc ). So yes, they are the victims.

        “Just to be clear about your position, are you denying that Abbas has not skimmed any $$$, or are you just trolling?”

        Just to be clear, you made an accusation and I asked you to back it up. You haven’t.

        “You do the research”

        For your assertions? Do your own before making accusations

        “..simply Google “palestinian authority graft” and you will be rewarded with boat-loads of evidence as to what bunch of crooks the PA bosses are”

        Evidence or accusations? Accusations are not evidence. Which accusation has any actual evidence?

        “Here is the real headline on the 2003 IMF Afarat investigation:

        IMF audit reveals Arafat diverted $900 million to account under his personal control”

        Yes, “diverted”. Not stolen from the Palestinians, shrewdly invested for the Palestinians. July 07, 2000 Arafat was cleared of wrongdoing by the IMF.

        “Beg pardon? Are we talking about a red cow, or about red “sh*te”? You’ve lost me”

        Uh huh. But then you conclude your worthless post by saying

        “And that ain’t no red heifer sh*t”

        You’re far tooooooooooooo clever

        “You have not addressed my point, which is that Abbas’ goals are not about what is right, but about revenue”

        I was and am still awaiting your evidence. Or would you rather I drivel on as you have, without any?

        Now let’s look at the so called ‘evidence’ you did bring

        MR. NASHASHIBI: No, this money was basically, as I said, in a special account. Most of it has been used to invest in Palestinian assets, both internally and abroad. One of the things that the reform process has done is they have tallied all the Palestinian assets by international auditors. It turns out that the PA was involved in 69 commercial activities, both at home and abroad. The tally of this current level of asset is around US$700 million in terms of at today’s market prices, which probably in ‘99 were US$900 million

        So I would say that the large majority of this money has been invested in assets that today are still within the public domain. link to electronicintifada.net

        Capable hired help at Hasbara central must be really quite hard to come by

      • talknic
        December 27, 2013, 3:21 pm

        @ Denis ” I prefer not to be drawn into some loser pissing-match over whether Abbas and Arafat have skimmed funds from the Palestinians”

        You raised the subject yourself and lost.

        Your own link confirmed the IMF conclusion on Arafat and you have yet to provide any substantiation for your claims about Abbas, you pathetic loser.

        Your subsequent posting quotes of more accusations or what the Palestinian think is not evidence.

        You should be banned, your posts and the reason for your banning left for all to see just how stupid apologists for Israel are and how they operate

      • talknic
        December 27, 2013, 3:51 pm

        @ Denis LOL The NYT Article and the FT article are available with free subscriptions

        Your large plagiarized (un attributed) C&P link to mondoweiss.net is from the settler propaganda news service. link to google.com.au

        Which quotes the Sunday Times. The Sunday Times article is behind a paywall. link to thesundaytimes.co.uk

        Never the less even your illegal settler rag shows only an accusation. No evidence “If the European Court of Auditors Report is confirmed” link to israelnationalnews.com

        One can only wonder who hires haplessly hopeless Hasbara help

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 12:54 am

        “IMF audit reveals Arafat diverted $900 million to account under his personal control”

        Great. Less than four months worth of the yearly haul the israeli Jews steal from American taxpayers every year. (If the zios are going to “whataboutery,” I might as well, too.)

    • Hostage
      December 26, 2013, 6:52 pm

      Of course, Abbas and his buddies pocket the lion’s share of what Ma and Pa Ten-forty send them, but, still, pull US tax money out of the PA and it will slide back into the horrible recession that marked the 2nd Intifada.

      The Congress and the US Code still consider the PLO to be a terror organization. The USA doesn’t give any money to the Palestinians that isn’t earmarked and covered by a written Presidential waiver. Most of it never goes to the Palestinians, it goes directly to USAID West Bank and Gaza. link to usaid.gov

    • Citizen
      December 26, 2013, 8:45 pm

      @ Denis

      Most of the foreign aid to the Palestinians from wherever goes to pay what would otherwise be Israel’s occupation bills. This frees up Israeli money to devote to its citizens, primarily to its Jewish citizens. Similarly, in terms of who benefits the most, military aid to Egypt is a paycheck to it to be Israel’s border guard. And Egypt also gives Israel deep discount on gas, something it doesn’t give its own citizens.

      • ziusudra
        December 27, 2013, 12:16 am

        Greetings Citizen,
        …. most of the foreign aid goes to Israel…..
        yet
        . 30% are at the poverty line!
        . 900K Orthodox neither work nor serve.
        . 410K sardined into Tel Aviv City of 52K Sq. Km
        with a bunker capacity for 30K!
        . unemployed 6.9% at 600K.
        . 500K left since 2005.
        . 176.5K ‘Standing Army’ whereas said numbers are
        lacking in employment of Social Services.
        Happy N.Y., Citizen.
        ziusudra
        PS Oy Weh ist mir. I long for me flat down in Jew Town in
        lower Manhattan. Poconoes of the Jewish Alps, anyone?

  13. amigo
    December 26, 2013, 2:58 pm

    another kick in the groin for Obama from his Masters in TA.

    ” Former UN ambassador Dore Gold to serve as Netanyahu’s foreign policy adviser
    Gold, whose job will focus on Israeli-U.S. relations, has relatively hawkish views and has never expressed support for the two-state solution.”Haaretz

    link to haaretz.com

    • seafoid
      December 26, 2013, 4:07 pm

      For the Bots it is yesha and TINA all the way. They have no Plan B. And they think it will work for them for eternity.

      • amigo
        December 26, 2013, 5:34 pm

        “They have no Plan B. And they think it will work for them for eternity.”seafoid.

        You are spot on.So let them self destruct and we will hope it occurs with the minimum suffering for others.If they or their apologists go down in the process so be it.They have been warned over and over.

  14. talknic
    December 26, 2013, 5:58 pm

    The Palestinians are under no legal obligation what so ever to agree to any conditions that do not have a legal basis.

    Israel’s demands have no legal basis what so ever, it does however have a legal obligation to uphold the Laws and UN Charter under which the Palestinians demand their legal rights.

    The Palestinians are being blackmailed via might is right. Protected only by buying the US UNSC veto vote, the Zionist Movement‘s Jewish state is bent on realizing a Greater Israel at ANY cost and money is now the root of this evil. Israel cannot now, after 65 years building illegal facts on the ground, afford to adhere to the law.

    • Justpassingby
      December 26, 2013, 6:04 pm

      Have the puppet Abbas ever cared about international law?

      • talknic
        December 26, 2013, 8:38 pm

        Justpassingby “Have the puppet Abbas ever cared about international law?”

        It is the basis of Palestinian negotiations. It has been the basis of the Arab negotiations since the 1920’s. There are no UNSC resolutions against the Arabs for being in breach of the UN Charter or International Law on the Question of Palestine.

      • Citizen
        December 26, 2013, 8:57 pm

        @ talknic
        Bush Jr compromised the US salute to the UN charter and international law it so championed back in Nuremberg and its Geneva progeny. He did that by his attack on Iraq.
        PTB are trying to get US to attack Iran as sequel. Original pretext was Saddam had WMD. Now the pretext is Iran has the potential for WMD. The key persuasive influence in both the former and current case is APAIC et al.

        The US has basically delegated both its foreign policy in the Middle East and its domestic security/police corps as to how they operate, to AIPAC-Israel.

      • talknic
        December 26, 2013, 9:45 pm

        @Citizen PNAC Look at the signatories link to en.wikipedia.org

        The rats have abandoned ship BTW link to newamericancentury.org

      • Justpassingby
        December 27, 2013, 8:29 am

        talknic

        If Abbas cared about international law he would go to ICC and not accept Israeli settlement.

      • talknic
        December 27, 2013, 3:59 pm

        @ Justpassingby “If Abbas cared about international law he would go to ICC and not accept Israeli settlement”

        A) He hasn’t accepted any Israeli settlement

        B) link to haaretz.com

      • Justpassingby
        December 28, 2013, 1:51 pm

        talknic

        Lol @ “hasnt”? He has accepted israeli settlement since he became president!
        As I said he could have gone to ICC long time ago but hes a puppet.

    • Sibiriak
      December 26, 2013, 11:14 pm

      talknic:

      The Palestinians are under no legal obligation what so ever to agree to any conditions that do not have a legal basis.

      Likewise, the Palestinians are under no legal obligation to reject any conditions that may not have a legal basis.

      • talknic
        December 27, 2013, 4:27 pm

        @Sibiriak “Likewise, the Palestinians are under no legal obligation to reject any conditions that may not have a legal basis”

        What a convoluted attempt..

        The Palestinians have the legal right to reject conditions and/or demands that do not have a legal basis.

        There is no legal basis on which Israel can demand conditions that have no legal basis.

        Israel can only hope that while the US maintains its precious UNSC veto vote on actions that might be taken against Israel for its contravention of International Law and the UN Charter, the Palestinians will concede to its outrageous demands.

        The Israeli narrative is as usual completely backwards. Israel must negotiate/plea bargain its way out of the illegal mess it has put itself in. It cannot now afford to adhere to the law without being sent bankrupt for decades with egg deservedly all over its face

  15. Susan A
    December 26, 2013, 11:24 pm

    Thanks talknic, it was good to be reminded of the less memorable names of the signatories to PNAC, and even better to see the second link! :)

  16. Walid
    December 27, 2013, 2:49 am

    Massive explosion in downtown Beirut.

  17. Walid
    December 27, 2013, 3:36 am

    Annie, Mohamed Shatah a former pro-US minister and several passers-by were killed by the car-bomb. He was on his way to a scheduled meeting of his political party at Hariri’s downtown house next door to the Magen Avraham Synagogue that are located a couple of blocks from where the explosion occurred. That sure put a damper on the holiday spirit.

    • Annie Robbins
      December 27, 2013, 4:00 am

      yeah, i have been following it now on twitter. they say targeted shatah/chattah convoy, aid to hariri.at least 5 were killed.

  18. mcohen
    December 27, 2013, 6:45 am

    i sometimes wonder about the palbots on this site.the fence gets your attention,why.
    What about the gaza- west bank railway link,no mention of that.
    Fences and walls come and go but a rail link can be important for the south
    Some time ago i posted that gaza and the west bank could have a land bridge ,no one commented
    Now it is a reality.
    A pipe line is being built to the dead sea
    Yet you focus on a fence
    There will never be a final agreement in israel just a series of continous agitations and accomodations
    Ever wonder why no single nation has ever claimed israel for itself

    • Sumud
      December 27, 2013, 11:51 am

      Rail link, land bridge now a reality – more info please, a source?

    • Walid
      December 27, 2013, 12:12 pm

      A rail line going to nowhere that Gazans wouldn’t be allowed to use. You’re dreaming, Cohen and confused about the TA-Eilat fast rail line project.

    • Woody Tanaka
      December 27, 2013, 1:12 pm

      “palbots”

      Always count on mcohen for some naked bigotry…

  19. just
    December 27, 2013, 7:56 am

    Just build more ugly fences– wall Israel in, and leave others alone. Make it the city of Ozreal, complete with a yellow brick road, a wizard, ruby slippers, and a wicked witch or two.

    How is this not illegal??? To confine more millions of indigenous Palestinians? What does the King of Jordan have to say? The IOF will harass, patrol, kill more people forever??? How can Kerry propose this?

  20. NickJOCW
    December 27, 2013, 10:55 am

    An agreement between Israel and the Palestinians is not possible at this time. Kerry must know that and have known it all along. All this flapping hither and yon like a bat in a boudoir has simply bought time. A number of commentators here feel that too but perhaps it was bought for some tangential purpose. On November 11 the UK and Iran each appointed a charge d’affaires. It is not conceivable such an exchange occurred without US influence. Nor is it the sort of thing that just happens on the spur of a moment. We have learned there were extensive discussions with Iran prior to the Geneva sanctions deal, discussions so secret Israel was apparently unaware of them. Such communication is unlikely to have been confined exclusively to the nuclear issue or to have ceased overnight.

    In the event, the deal was one in which Iran ceded very little while gaining the principle of enrichment and maintaining enriched materials, a concession the US had totally opposed for ten years. What did the US get in return? By the end of April we may see Iran having unequivocally fulfilled all its obligations under the interim agreement monitored by the IAEA. There may also be light at the end of the Syrian tunnel, largely as a result of Iranian involvement. Then there is potential for Iran to assist in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan where the US is irrefutably out of its depth . None of this having anything to do with Israel which will simply have continued to be its own worst enemy. Somewhere along that line the US might even follow the UK and look to more formal diplomatic contact with Iran. Meanwhile the BDS movement will be that much closer to its tipping point and the IP situation could look quite different, with Israel in no position to claim Kerry had done anything but work his ass off on their behalf.

    • Walid
      December 27, 2013, 11:39 am

      “There may also be light at the end of the Syrian tunnel, largely as a result of Iranian involvement.”

      Only 2 parties are not happy with that light, Nick, the bombing in Beirut today was possibly a result of this displeasure.

      • NickJOCW
        December 27, 2013, 2:14 pm

        The ‘rehabilitation’ of Iran in the eyes of the US public may be a higher priority right now than the immediate fate of Palestinians. I don’t have a crystal ball* but a scenario such as I outlined would sure take Israel down a peg or two at least in their own minds. It would remind everyone the US has its own games to play.

        *that’s not true, I have a beautiful one, bought in Prague in 1979 but I don’t rely on it.

    • Citizen
      December 27, 2013, 12:10 pm

      Kerry’s the man in the spotlight, trying to solve the Rubik’s cube in his hand. He’s twisted it around enough already to realize sovereign Israel’s security (never enough!) block needs to align with Palestinian sovereignty (freedom, ample ability to defend it) block. He thinks his proposed plan most effectively lines up those key blocks, and will solve the puzzle. The reason it does not, cannot, is that, while, e.g., Abbas could do nothing about OP Cast Lead, Israel does not have that problem, and Obama ignored OP Cast Lead and dismissed the attempted international accounting, the Goldstone Report.

      Obama’s choice for the # 2 slot at the Fed is the dual US-Israeli citizen from Israel who’s preaching US should attack Iran when Israel independently decides it’s time to do so.

  21. just
    December 27, 2013, 2:58 pm

    @ JeffB December 27, 2013 at 2:26 pm
    ” That’s not a sanctions regime, a blockade is an act of war. A blockade requires a navy. In the case of Israel it is going to require a navy capable of surviving IDF attack. So whose providing those ships? ”

    Israel has imposed an impossible and horrible blockade against the Palestinians. An “act of war” in your own words, hypocrite.

    • JeffB
      December 27, 2013, 3:21 pm

      @just

      Israel has imposed an impossible and horrible blockade against the Palestinians. An “act of war” in your own words, hypocrite.

      How am I a hypocrite? I’ve always said that Hamas declared war and Israel responded with a blockade which is an act of war. I’ve never denied that. I’ve also said the proper things for Hamas to do is to request terms of surrender, which obviously implies I agree they are warring.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 27, 2013, 5:11 pm

        ” I’ve always said that Hamas declared war ”

        Hamas didn’t declare war, the zionist Jews who invaded Palestine from Europe and North American declared war.

        “I’ve also said the proper things for Hamas to do is to request terms of surrender”

        LMAO. War’s not over yet.

        “which obviously implies I agree they are warring.”

        Well, good. I’ll remember that the next time an attack on some zio squatter town in launched (if it was good for the US and UK against Dresden and Nagasaki, it should be good for a few firecrackers from Gaza!!) or some bus gets blown up in the Tel Aviv settlement.

  22. NickJOCW
    December 28, 2013, 4:05 am

    Off Topic from St James Piccadilly

    St James’s Church welcomes you to Bethlehem Unwrapped
    23 December – 5 January

    At Christmas, we sing about the “little town of Bethlehem”.  This Christmas, we are hosting a festival celebrating the people of Bethlehem today and drawing attention to the Barrier that affects every aspect of daily life.

    The wall in our courtyard is a replica segment of the wall that surrounds Bethlehem. It is 8 metres tall because the real wall is 8 metres.  It obscures the view of this historic church because that is what has happened to Bethlehem’s holy sites and historic places. .

    link to sjp.org.uk

  23. Kathleen
    December 28, 2013, 12:02 pm

    Israel will not even consider an International force patrolling a border… too big of a chance for the whole world to see how violent and racist the IDForces are. How many times has the U.S. vetoed sending in international peace keepers or observers to guard international borders in this conflict?

    • JeffB
      December 28, 2013, 1:26 pm

      @Kathleen —

      International peace keepers are not international peace makers. They are not armed nor large enough to subdue a hostile army. When the UN is going to send in peace keepers, the UN asks various warring parties if they agree. If they don’t get a “yes” there are no peace keepers.

      The UN can do what the IDF allows them to do.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 28, 2013, 1:45 pm

        The UN can do what the IDF allows them to do.

        what about nato?

      • JeffB
        December 28, 2013, 1:55 pm

        @Annie —

        NATO even NATO x-USA could take Israel. It could be ugly and expensive but they pretty clearly win. So if NATO considered this a priority (that is willing to fight a war) Israelis are finished. Which Israeli would likely cave to reasonable demands and likely go all out against unreasonable demands….

        But how does that help? NATO doesn’t care that much either. NATO x-USA is bitterly divided on Israel constantly but I don’t know any NATO member that is remotely interested in a war with Israel.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 29, 2013, 1:18 am

        i was just making the point, that an International force could patrol the border. it wouldn’t necessarily have to be about what the IDF allows them to do.

        and it wouldn’t mean israel would be ‘finished’ either. not unless you consider an israel where it can’t get its way ‘finished’. you wanna be above all law except of your own making, forever. not sure if that’s in israel’s cards. we’ll see tho, won’t we.

  24. JeffB
    December 28, 2013, 11:12 pm

    @Citizen

    Internationally illegal Jewish Israeli settlers take native Palestinian water at at a ratio of 6 to 1. Jews swim in their swimming pools, the native Palestinians don’t have decent drinking water.

    We were talking Gaza not West Bank. There are no settlers in Gaza, no Israeli swimming pools and no taking water from the settlement. What’s going on there is from the Palestinians.

    • tree
      December 29, 2013, 2:12 am

      We were talking Gaza not West Bank. There are no settlers in Gaza, no Israeli swimming pools and no taking water from the settlement. What’s going on there is from the Palestinians.

      You know, Jeff, your ignorance and your racism are so overwhelming that I’ve mostly decided its a lost cause to try to pull your head out your *ss, but here’s a small attempt at reaching the unreachable.

      Israeli settlers had already done the major damage to Gaza’s water supply prior to their departure. Gaza’s aquifers were already over pumped then, leading to increased salinity due to ocean water entering the aquifers. This was one unspoken reason for Israel’s withdrawal of its settlers in 2007.

      From Sara Roy’s “The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development”, published in 1995:

      The insufficiency and decreased quality of Gaza’s water supply have been exacerbated by Israel’s own, often urgent, need to supplement its own water resources. In accordance with the Israel Water Law of 1959, water was declared to be a public commodity soon after the occupation began. This declaration exceeded the rights of an occupying power under international law….Prevailing Egyptian law was amended with Military Order 158, which required a license for digging new wells. Given Israel’s need to control and use water resources, however, Military Order 158 translated into a prohibition on the development of new water sources by the Arab population only. These restrictions have never applied to the Jewish settlers in the Gaza Strip.

      Government measures regarding water use have assumed several forms in Gaza. First, despite the restrictions imposed on the Arab population, the authorities bored five 20-inch artesian wells in the Strip that draw water from Gaza’s own limited sources for Jewish (including settler) use. Second, Gaza’s most important source of surface water and one that it shares in common with Israel, the Wadi Gaza (Or Nahal Bessor in Hebrew) is diverted wholly for use by Israel. The Wadi Gaza has catchment areas in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel and arguably provides 20 mcm to 30 mcm of water per year. However, Israel impounds this water before it even enters Gaza. Third, part of Gaza’s aquifer -50 mcm to 60 mcm per year- flows from Israel. Although Israel denies it, Palestinian hydrologists claim that Israel intercepts this flow, leaving small quantities for Gaza. Fourth, unofficial reports from foreign development agencies working in the Gaza Strip maintain that in 1985, the (Israeli) government dug between three and five boreholes so close to Israel’s border with Gaza that water drawn from them was being drawn from Gaza’s own reserves instead. Fifth, government sanction of Jewish settlement in Gaza has further limited the amount of water available to the Arab sector. Water use among Jewish settlers in the Gaza Strip prevents Palestinian agriculturalists from making optimal use of available water, a fact that has no doubt played a role in confining farming methods within a decidedly traditional framework.

      Jewish settler water usage in Gaza at the time was 18 times the Palestinian usage there. Israel also installed over 35-40 new wells for the settlers by 1995 and dug them much deeper than the Palestinian wells, adversely affecting those wells by drawing water away from them. Jewish settlers in Gaza, in contrast to their Palestinian neighbors, did not suffer from Israeli government imposed water quotas, and in fact had their water usage subsidized by the government. The town of Khan Younis, in comparison, had only 6 wells supplying its water, and five of them were built during Egyptian rule, leaving exactly one that was allowed to be built by Israel during its lengthy occupation there. Compare that with the 35-40 wells built for Jewish settlers.

      Israel totally diminished and abused Gaza’s water supply during its long occupation, depleting its aquifers and increasing their salinity, and it continues to do so by interfering with water resources that Gaza would normally benefit from without Israel’s craven interference. And of course, in addition, one of the greater pressures on Gaza’s water resources in the large number of people it must sustain. The large number of people living in Gaza is the direct result of Israel’s ethnic cleansing of its Palestinian population. Israel is the primary culprit behind the devastated water situation in Gaza.

      • ritzl
        December 29, 2013, 4:51 am

        Excellent comment, tree. It’s tough to refute these seemingly inexhaustible circular arguments and, I don’t know, helical falsehoods, but great job in this case. Thanks again.

      • JeffB
        December 29, 2013, 11:25 pm

        @tree —

        Most of that sounds rather speculative. Mostly it makes claims about water being intercepted prior to it reaching Gaza. There are UN agencies which monitor water and it ain’t like the UN isn’t blistering hostile to Israel.

        But let’s assume it is true. That’s what Israel does to Syria as well and Syria doesn’t respond by poisoning their own water supply by overtaxing it. There is no good reason that food should continued to be grown in Gaza after 1995 given the water condition. Certainly not food in large quantities. That’s not Israel, that’s Hamas.

  25. Sibiriak
    December 29, 2013, 1:33 pm

    tree :

    Israeli settlers had already done the major damage to Gaza’s water supply prior to their departure. ETC.

    Informative post. Thanks.

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