Registration of Jews and other human beings

Israel/Palestine
on 84 Comments
Flyer from Donetsk

Flyer from Donetsk

Phil has reported on the recent incident in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk where flyers were distributed in the vicinity of the local synagogue warning Jews to register with the local authorities.  The flyers purportedly were authored by pro-Russian forces seeking to take control of the city, but their authenticity has been doubted from the outset.

It seems certain that there was no actual effort to require registration of the Jews of Donetsk.  The flyers may well have been a hoax perpetrated by pro-Ukrainians trying to make the Russian contingent appear anti-Semitic to counter genuine allegations of anti-Semitism among the new regime in Kiev.

No one knows for sure who is responsible, but condemnations have been pouring in from all corners.  Phil’s post quotes John Kerry’s outrage, which appears to treat the flyers as genuine, and Abe Foxman’s, which expresses skepticism over their origin.  The Chief Rabbi of Donetsk condemned the flyers as a frightening hoax but wants the community to move on.  Most recently, Ukrainian PM Yatsenyuk has weighed in, vowing to bring to justice the “bastards” responsible.  One thing all public figures agree on is that it would be “beyond unacceptable” and “grotesque,” in Kerry’s words, to actually require registration of Jews, thereby establishing a basis for treating Jewish citizens differently from non-Jewish ones.

Contrast this uproar with the recent decision of the Israeli Supreme Court upholding the requirement that Israeli citizens could not identify themselves as having “Israeli” nationality for the country’s population registry.  A group of Israelis had petitioned merely for the option of choosing such a nationality that would not distinguish between Jewish and non-Jewish citizens, and the Court rejected their claim.  Israel will continue to require its citizens to register as Jewish or one of several other non-Jewish categories, just as it has been doing for more than 65 years.

Are the situations comparable?  I think so.  In both cases, there is an attempt to distinguish groups of citizens from each other on the basis of their ancestry or ethnic identity.  Such distinctions can only be meaningful if the different groups are treated differently.  The Ukrainian registration plan, if it had been genuine, would be designed to identify Jews in the population for some sort of special (mis)treatment.  The Israeli insistence on identifying its citizens as Jewish or not has the mirror-image motivation of granting privileges and status to Jews over non-Jews.  In both cases, there is an effort to treat citizens differently, based upon characteristics of birth, in a manner that would be deemed unthinkable in the U.S.

It may be true that there is an emotional reaction to an Eastern European policy that is reminiscent of the first signs of anti-Jewish hostility in the 1930’s – singling Jews out for a nefarious purpose.  But the actual registration of Jews in Ukraine, while deeply troubling, would not be significantly different from Israel’s legal requirement that is deemed an inherent part of its existence as a Jewish State.

There are, of course, two enormous differences between the Ukrainian and Israeli registration requirements.  First, the former is entirely fictional, and in fact eerily similar to the 2006 hoax that Iran’s Jews would be required to wear a yellow star on their clothing.  It seems that any suggestion of virulent anti-Semitism, no matter how implausible or bizarre, and especially if it occurs in an enemy du jour like Iran or Russia/Ukraine, is eagerly believed as confirmation that Jew-hating lurks just underneath the surface.  The second difference is that the Ukraine hoax has ignited an international furor, while Israel’s longstanding policy of differentiating between its citizens barely draws a yawn.

84 Responses

  1. seafoid
    April 23, 2014, 10:09 am

    Poor Zionists. They can discriminate against Palestinians in their Shangri la but it’s not acceptable anywhere else. No security excuses either.

  2. Woody Tanaka
    April 23, 2014, 10:12 am

    Very interesting. It would be a better world if the Israeli registration was condemned as strongly.

    • Hostage
      April 23, 2014, 12:19 pm

      It would be a better world if the Israeli registration was condemned as strongly.

      Certainly not by Secretary Kerry. Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution was employed by the Congress to establish trading and treaty relations with the Indian tribes. The fact that the members were subsequently granted US citizenship did not alter the legal standing of the tribes:

      To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

      link to law.cornell.edu

      Not too far away from the scene of the recent Overland Park shootings, the federal records and tribal trust records of the National Archives and Records Administration and the Bureau of Indian Affairs are maintained by the American Indian Records Repository at Lenexa, Kansas.

      No matter how many DNA tests establish your native American descent or entitlement to share in the settlements from extensive trust litigation, in most cases you won’t be “federally recognized” or able to collect, unless you are descended from someone on the federal government’s Dawes Act registration rolls or have been legally adopted by someone who is.
      link to archives.gov
      link to bia.gov

  3. eljay
    April 23, 2014, 10:21 am

    Another Zio-supremacist mantra: “Do unto others what would be considered anti-Semitic if done unto you. And if people call you out on your unjust and immoral behaviour, accuse them of being anti-Semitic.”

    • Ecru
      April 23, 2014, 3:28 pm

      Yeah as I’ve said in the past – any time Zionists raise the anti-semitic flag these days all I do is laugh. Very very loudly.

      • hophmi
        April 24, 2014, 11:25 am

        “Yeah as I’ve said in the past – any time Zionists raise the anti-semitic flag these days all I do is laugh. Very very loudly.”

        Yes, I surmise that you laugh much like KKK members do when African-Americans talk about discrimination. The company you keep . . .

        • Hostage
          April 24, 2014, 3:55 pm

          Yes, I surmise that you laugh much like KKK members do when African-Americans talk about discrimination. The company you keep . . .

          Endorses equal human rights and equality under the law for African-Americans, Jews, and Palestinians. You are pretending to be Israel’s defense lawyer here and it doesn’t subscribe to either of those principles.

          • Ecru
            April 24, 2014, 6:02 pm

            @ Hostage

            Thanks. :)

          • eljay
            April 25, 2014, 9:09 am

            >> hophmeee: The company you keep . . .
            >> Hostage: Endorses equal human rights and equality under the law for African-Americans, Jews, and Palestinians. You are pretending to be Israel’s defense lawyer here and it doesn’t subscribe to either of those principles.

            Zio-supremacists like hophmeee fancy themselves voices of reason, but all they do – consistently and hypocritically – is argue for or defend past and on-going injustices or inequalities that favour Jews.

  4. lysias
    April 23, 2014, 10:26 am

    I’ve read allegations that the fliers were written in Ukrainian. Now that David Samel has provided a clear image of one of the fliers, it’s quite clear that it’s in Russian, not Ukrainian.

    • David Samel
      April 23, 2014, 12:14 pm

      lysias, I am unable to distinguish one from the other, but thanks for the insight (Adam provided the image). I would have been surprised otherwise, because whoever distributed the flyers wanted it to be believed that Russians or Russian-speaking Ukrainians were behind it.

      • piotr
        April 23, 2014, 10:16 pm

        Actually, the linguistic rights of Russian speakers are one of the main points of contention, and there are not many Ukrainian speakers in Donetsk. So it would be rather weird to have pro-Russian “separatists” to use Ukrainian.

        By the way, Ukrainian alphabet is a bit different, and the notable detail is letter i that Russians do not use (they removed it after October Revolution that got rid of Czar family, kulaks and letter i), while Ukrainians use i with joyful abandon.

  5. Citizen
    April 23, 2014, 10:27 am

    This is a very astute and concisely written insight by David Samel. Looks like even the goys have learned how to use the fear and guilt of anti-semitism to further their own selfish agenda. More crying Shoah Wolf everyday as the sun rises since 1945. In the same vein, the State of Israel is fully engaged in the process of institutionalizing this phenomena: Israel increases institutional moves to separate Israeli Arabs by their religion: link to dailystar.com.lb
    Divide & Conquer mentality at work.
    Look at how fast Obama and Beiden jumped on the subject hoax, although it had already been addressed as a hoax 24 hours before by credible sources.

    We have the old story of the Golem. There’s a difference between the canary in the mine and a chicken hawk, but don’t expect the US mainstream media to sort it out in public. Ditto in spades for Israel. (BTW, anybody notice how Israel has not rubber-stamped the US government and main media’s version of Putin? Look for more of this as Obama tilts toward the East, aligned with his neoCold War policy. And, accordingly, look also to Israel sucking up to China as US grows feeble though its rubber-stamping of Israel, combined with the 1%’s greed. I’m guessing China’s door will be less open than USA’s to the Zionists–how about you?)

    • lysias
      April 23, 2014, 11:01 am

      Given Israel’s failure to get on board with the U.S.’s Ukraine policy, I think this is one case of crying wolf that cannot be blamed on Israel. I continue to suspect the CIA’s hand in this.

    • Citizen
      April 23, 2014, 11:21 am

      Another motive/angle to Israel’s move to more easily (for the potential recruits) obtain more Christian Arab citizens as soldiers in the IDF is a significant number of IDF recruits generally are refusing the obligation of conscription into the IDF: link to imemc.org

  6. pabelmont
    April 23, 2014, 10:31 am

    As piotr reminded us on another thread, Israel paints itself “adorable” and, because it is, as it says, adorable, it cannot be guilty of apartheid (or, I suppose, of anything else of a nasty sort). As piotr rightly implies, it is the magic of being “adorable” that you are not guilty, of anything.

    (Israel doesn’t play “You be frank and I’ll be earnest” — it plays “I’m adorable”.)

    And as Israel is adorable, its odd “nationality” registration rules are not racist (as such rules would be elsewhere), because “racist” does not comport with “adorable”.

    It’s that easy!

  7. lysias
    April 23, 2014, 10:35 am

    I thought that the entity claiming separate existence in Donetsk called itself “Донетская Народная Республика”, i.e., “Donetsk People’s Republic”. Yet this document is entitled “Невасимая Донетская Республика”, i.e., “Independent Republic of Donetsk”.

    • Stephen Shenfield
      April 23, 2014, 7:12 pm

      lysias said: “I thought that the entity claiming separate existence in Donetsk called itself “Донетская Народная Республика”, i.e., “Donetsk People’s Republic”. Yet this document is entitled “Невасимая Донетская Республика”, i.e., “Independent Republic of Donetsk”.”

      Yes, that is the title at the top. But the stamp at the bottom says “Donetsk People’s Republic”! The author was presumably in a rush and did not take the effort to produce a consistent text. That is not the only inconsistency. In the heading and the second paragraph Jews are defined as a “nationality” (i.e., ethnic group) but in the third paragraph they are defined as a religious confession. So it is not clear whether people of Jewish origin who do not profess Judaism are required to register or not.

      • lysias
        April 24, 2014, 3:40 pm

        I see that the first paragraph of the text also speaks of the “Донетская народная республика” (“Donetsk people’s republic”), whereas in the second paragraph it is the “суверенная Донетская республика” (“sovereign republic of Donetsk”).

  8. amigo
    April 23, 2014, 10:41 am

    “The second difference is that the Ukraine hoax has ignited an international furor, while Israel’s longstanding policy of differentiating between its citizens barely draws a yawn.”

    It cannot last.Such injustices never last.It,s going to be one helluva good day when the zionist project comes crashing down around their ears with a very loud bang.

    Cork popping time for me.

    • Citizen
      April 23, 2014, 11:05 am

      @ Amigo
      What I think you’re driving at is in the West, where the Shoah narrative is law, people are gradually (thanks mostly to the internet, which won’t be going away) learning about the (original and on-going) Nabka. But, given the power constellation at present, how many more “facts on the ground ” will there be by the time enough folks awake? It’s that dividing up the pizza while eating it thing, no? I can’t help but think of all the Americans I know on a personal level in my antique existence in the USA who have yet to even know the world “Nabka.” And, of course, their priority is getting a decent job in a near jobless environment where the income gap has grown so that now the US is not in the upper tier of middle-class life style, world-wide. If you want that, go, e.g., to Canada.

      • amigo
        April 23, 2014, 11:49 am

        Citizen,
        agreed there is a large gap between the level of awareness of the history of the P/I conflict of Americans and we in Europe.Down to Media control mostly ,(far less here) and less fear here in discussing the matter openly which inherently requires criticism of Israel.Europeans may not be aware of the word Nakba but are aware that there are two sides to the story and are willing to listen to both sides.After 60 years listening to the Zionist narrative, European ears are ready to listen to the other side , especially now the Suicide Bombings are no longer Israel,s first excuse out on the table.

        As to how long this will take to run it,s course is hard to say but there is a certain exponential factor involved and once the horse is out of the stable, the end will come quickly.

        I may not see it but it will happen.It must. I can only hope .

        • puppies
          April 23, 2014, 1:29 pm

          @amigo – “especially now the Suicide Bombings are no longer Israel,s first excuse out on the table.”
          The suicide bombings were not ever a credible excuse not to listen. The opposite: the fact that there could be so much despair and destitution as to push young people to offer their own life as a weapon is what moved a lot of the Western human herd to start thinking and questioning.
          As for the purely homicidal bombings by salary-collecting, comfortable US/Azrael bombers, that’s also when their kashrut grade started to be perceived as deteriorating.
          The suicide bombings were just one more bad faith excuse of the moment by Zionists, their sponsors and their accomplices.

          • amigo
            April 24, 2014, 6:52 am

            “The suicide bombings were not ever a credible excuse not to listen.”

            puppies , I agree but unfortunately , the suicide bombings served the zionist,s cause so they employed that excuse to the fullest and the average European was easily brought on board by the images.Those images have faded into the background and new ones are emerging such as settler thugs destroying Palestinian trees or Israeli planes dropping WP on Gazan Children.The tide is turning and will continue to unless Israel succeeds in creating a violent response from Palestinians.They sure do their evil best to reach that goal.

    • NickJOCW
      April 24, 2014, 3:43 pm

      Hoax within hoax. Within hoax? link to presstv.ir

      • lysias
        April 24, 2014, 3:59 pm

        If the ADL is really behind the hoax, I wonder how that can be squared with Israel not supporting U.S. policy on Russia/Ukraine?

        • seanmcbride
          April 24, 2014, 8:55 pm

          lysias,

          This story (the alleged role of the ADL in the Ukraine hoax) has been gaining major traction on Twitter. I am surprised that the ADL hasn’t responded yet with a denial and a condemnation of Gordon Duff.

          No supporting documentation, to the best of my knowledge, has been produced to support the charge against the ADL. If this story about the hoax is itself a hoax, is it actionable?

          [Twitter; hoax ADL link to twitter.com ]

        • seanmcbride
          April 24, 2014, 8:57 pm

          lysias,

          If the ADL is really behind the hoax, I wonder how that can be squared with Israel not supporting U.S. policy on Russia/Ukraine?

          On the other hand, the militantly pro-Israel neoconservatives have been ringleading the propaganda campaign against Russia, right?

          Who benefits from the hoax?

        • NickJOCW
          April 25, 2014, 4:18 am

          Israel’s response to the Ukrainian adventure is irrelevant either way whereas the spectre of antisemitism is always useful?

  9. lysias
    April 23, 2014, 11:22 am

    Looks like war is coming closer: oh! oh! oh! what a lovely war!.

    Such ominous developments on the centennial year of 1914!

  10. Shmuel
    April 23, 2014, 11:43 am

    The second difference is that the Ukraine hoax has ignited an international furor, while Israel’s longstanding policy of differentiating between its citizens barely draws a yawn.

    It gets much weirder than that. Somehow, discriminating against Jewish Ukrainians is actually equated with not discriminating against non-Jewish Israelis. The very idea of equality in Israel is treated as “hatred”, seeking Israel’s “destruction” and denying its “right to exist”.

    • David Samel
      April 23, 2014, 12:52 pm

      Very true, Shmuel, just as the end of the Jewish State, even if achieved through non-violent transformation to an egalitarian country, is treated as the end of the Jewish presence in the area, as if Jews simply cannot co-exist with Palestinians unless they are in a position of domination and superiority.

      • hophmi
        April 23, 2014, 2:41 pm

        “as if Jews simply cannot co-exist with Palestinians unless they are in a position of domination and superiority.”

        I cannot imagine what would make Jews in Israel feel that way. I mean, the Palestinians have been so peaceful, and the region has been so friendly to minorities, always treating Jews perfectly in every way.

        • eljay
          April 23, 2014, 2:55 pm

          >> I cannot imagine what would make Jews in Israel feel that way. I mean, the Palestinians have been so peaceful …

          Zio-supremacist ignores Israel’s (and Zio-supremacists’) past and on-going (war) crimes.

          >> … and the region has been so friendly to minorities, always treating Jews perfectly in every way.

          Zio-supremacist looks to Saudi Arabia, Mali and African “hell-holes” to justify his supremacist state’s unjust and immoral behaviour.

          hophmeee is a consistent Zio-supremacist.

        • David Samel
          April 23, 2014, 3:09 pm

          hophmi, Can you imagine what might have made Jews in Europe feel that way at the end of the War? Do you think it would have been a good idea to create a Jewish State in Europe where Jews had privileges over non-Jews and could expel hundreds of thousands to create their super-majority?

          Was the Middle East even remotely as hostile to its Jewish population for centuries? It was the advent of Zionism that provoked more and more hostility. Maybe the Zionist movement should have chosen Connecticut for its Jewish State. The people there no doubt would have been very disposed to accept the idea, don’t you think?

          Whites in South Africa surely felt as threatened, even more so, by the end of apartheid.

          btw, if Palestinians deserve to be punished with inferior rights in the land of their birth for their transgressions of reacting violently to Zionism and mistreatment of Jews and other minorities, do Israelis deserve to be punished for their far greater transgressions of violence and denial of minority rights?

          You are trying to justify a system of ethnic and religious privilege with a little quip. Doesn’t work, hophmi. It’s the 21st century.

          • lysias
            April 23, 2014, 3:35 pm

            Actually, if the Jewish state had been established in East Prussia, that would have been in a place where the indigenous German population had already to a large extent fled by 1945, and from which the remaining Germans were very shortly expelled. There were some Poles and Kashubians as well in East Prussia, but they were both relatively small minorities, and most of the Kashubians, who preferred to regard themselves as German, were also expelled.

        • Ecru
          April 23, 2014, 3:26 pm

          @ Hophmi

          The Palestinians and indigenous Jews tended to get along quite well until European colonists spouting the same type of victimhood/superiority bilge you go in for turned up and started treating them like dirt. Funny that.

          But let’s expand your claim here shall we because it’s very revealing since what you’re basically stating is that Jews, given the history, cannot co-exist with ANYONE unless they’re in a position of domination and (temporal ’cause lord knows it aint moral or spiritual) superiority.

          Which is ironic since that position makes, from a non-Jewish pov, anti-semtitism not just logical but necessary self protection. You sure you want to go down that road Hoppy? Hasn’t worked out too well for your people in the past. Just in case you forgot.

          Now – any more blood libels you want to spread yet?

        • talknic
          April 23, 2014, 3:26 pm

          hophmi “I mean, the Palestinians have been so peaceful “

          Against Israelis usurping them? You’re delusional.

          “..and the region has been so friendly to minorities, always treating Jews perfectly in every way”

          In his lifetime Herlz could have moved to Palestine, attained Palestinian citizenship, bought land and settled anywhere in the Jewish People’s historic homeland. Odd that he didn’t bother.

          Throughout the LoN Mandate for Palestine period and under the Mandate guidelines Jews could move to Palestine, attained Palestinian citizenship, bought land and settled anywhere in the Jewish People’s historic homeland. (Art 7 )

          Meanwhile Palestinian Jews lived in the region in relative peace for over 2,000 years until mass and at times illegal immigration assisted by Zionist colonial project loans made it rather obvious to the locals what the Zionist intention was.

        • Woody Tanaka
          April 23, 2014, 3:38 pm

          “I cannot imagine what would make Jews in Israel feel that way. I mean, the Palestinians have been so peaceful, and the region has been so friendly to minorities, always treating Jews perfectly in every way.”

          I posed this question the other day and none of you Zionists responded, so I’ll pose it again:

          What could possibly be your objection to instituting, in the United States, a country for “White Christians” if we stipulate that Jews and African Americans would suffer exactly that which the Zionists imposed on the Palestinians: First, they would be subject to martial law for a generation and most of their property would be seized by the state, then they would split into two groups – one half would become second-class citizens but subject to discrimination in dozens of different ways, and the other half would be subject to occupation of their land, oppression in every way, restriction on travel, random killings, destruction of their economy and way of life, and that would go on forever, but 47 years at a minimum.

          What possible problem would you have to treating American Jews and African Americans in this fashion?

          Since you seem to be of the opinion that this conflict is totally the fault of the Arab side, and nothing that the Israeli Jews did to the Arabs is the cause of any of the conflict, then why not treat American Jews and African Americans in that same fashion??

        • amigo
          April 24, 2014, 8:13 am

          “I cannot imagine what would make Jews in Israel feel that way. I mean, the Palestinians have been so peaceful, and the region has been so friendly to minorities, always treating Jews perfectly in every way.” hopnee

          Funny aint it how those ungrateful Palestinians stab you in the back after all you have done for them.

          I mean , knocking down their villages and building brand new towns and roads and forests and industrial zones and not requiring them to don a uniform and relieving them of the odious task of living next to or among Jews.Providing them with free demolition services and teaching manners to their children and meting out punishment when necessary.

          Wow, such f—-g ingrates.How do you tolerate such ingratitude.Must be the sweet peace loving Zionist in you that keeps you going.

  11. Philip Weiss
    April 23, 2014, 1:44 pm

    Great post, fascinating parallels. I got in an argument about this yesterday, a friend saying that BDS has the hidden agenda of destroying Israel, or words to that effect. I responded that I was only interested in a political model of equality myself, so I can’t mourn the end of privilege.

  12. brenda
    April 23, 2014, 1:47 pm

    “Contrast this uproar with the recent decision of the Israeli Supreme Court … Israel will continue to require its citizens to register as Jewish or one of several other non-Jewish categories, just as it has been doing for more than 65 years.”

    thank you for this, David Samel. It is a perfect metaphor — perfectly illuminating.

    I liked your way with words enough to look at the author archive. Even though this one didn’t illuminate a MURKY point, because the reader ‘gets it’ right away, already knew it — it is hilarious! I hope Phil sees fit to re-publish it, maybe on a down news cycle when we all need a little cheering up.

    “Worldwide poll finds Iran least popular country; American-Iranian Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) complains of delegitimization” June 3, 2013 David Samel

    • David Samel
      April 23, 2014, 2:20 pm

      Thanks Brenda. I have an unnatural affection for sarcasm, which I sometimes overuse in my posts. My first draft of this one ended that way, with reference to the Israeli Ministry of Irony and Hypocrisy, etc. Adam wisely pushed me to modify it and flesh out the similarity of the registration stories rather than just assume that everyone would agree. Glad you liked the other one, though.

  13. hophmi
    April 23, 2014, 2:40 pm

    “Are the situations comparable?”

    Not remotely.

    “The Israeli insistence on identifying its citizens as Jewish or not has the mirror-image motivation of granting privileges and status to Jews over non-Jews. ”

    Nonsense. The registry, which notes religion, includes Druze and many, many other appellations. The ID cards themselves include no mention of ethnicity. Everyone registers; Israel has a national ID system. Not only Arabs and not only non-Jews. Everyone. That’s the exact opposite of a system where only Jews are asked to register.

    And I would be willing to bet that if Israel did away with this sort of national registry tomorrow, Arabs in Israel would protest that the state was refusing to recognize them as a distinct nationality.

    Plenty of countries use ID cards and keep registries with personal information.

    “But the actual registration of Jews in Ukraine, while deeply troubling, would not be significantly different from Israel’s legal requirement that is deemed an inherent part of its existence as a Jewish State.”

    Really? Are ethnic Arabs in Israel being asked to pay special taxes that no one else is paying? Are they DENIED the right to vote or serve? No.

    • David Samel
      April 23, 2014, 3:50 pm

      hophmi, you seem to suggest that if the flyers had required everyone in Donetsk to register as Jewish or Christian or other, and/or had not demanded payment of a $50 registration fee, it would have been OK with you and John Kerry and Abe Foxman. No it wouldn’t have. The transparent effort to identify the minority Jewish population would have been just as frightening. btw, I don’t believe there is anything in the flyers that suggests that Jews would be deprived of their right to vote or “serve.”

      • hophmi
        April 23, 2014, 4:21 pm

        “hophmi, you seem to suggest that if the flyers had required everyone in Donetsk to register as Jewish or Christian or other, and/or had not demanded payment of a $50 registration fee, it would have been OK with you and John Kerry and Abe Foxman. ”

        I’m saying that a country with a policy of registering all is different from a country with a policy of registering one group only. If the flyer had been distributed to all Donetskians/Ukrainians/whatever they call themselves, and had included religion, I do not think Abe Foxman would be making a big deal out of it.

        “The transparent effort to identify the minority Jewish population would have been just as frightening.”

        Again, assuming that was the point. The point of national registration in Israel is not to identify non-Jews. It’s to identify, period. Israel has a national ID. The ID is used for all sorts of public services available to Jews and non-Jews alike. So your comparison of the two is just highly, highly ridiculous.

        • Citizen
          April 23, 2014, 6:00 pm

          @ hophmi
          You’re so funny. You say, “The (Israel state) ID is used for all sorts of public services available to Jews and non-Jews alike. So, are you advocating the USA should implement the exact same sort of ID? And that SCOTUS should declare there is no American ID, as the Israeli high court said about Iraeli nationality?

        • tree
          April 23, 2014, 7:09 pm

          The point of national registration in Israel is not to identify non-Jews. It’s to identify, period.

          If that were the case, then it would be unnecessary to indicate a religion/ethnicity on the ID card. In the US I have a driver’s license and a passport. Neither one indicates my religion (or lack of same) or my ethnicity. And yet I am still “identified”, by my picture, my height and weight, my place and date of birth, and my fingerprint. The only reason Israel puts a religion/ethnicity on its IDs is because it differentiates in its treatment of its citizens on the basis of religion/ethnicity. Your denial of the obvious is pathetic, hophmi.

          • talknic
            April 23, 2014, 8:22 pm

            Hophmi insists on applying mouth to mouth long after the body has decayed…

            “The point of national registration in Israel is not to identify non-Jews. It’s to identify, period.”

            So why does it identify Jews?

        • Donald
          April 24, 2014, 9:35 am

          Netanyahu and others are demanding that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state. What’s the point, if there is to be no distinction in Israel between its Jewish and non-Jewish citizens?

          • hophmi
            April 24, 2014, 11:24 am

            Citizen: “The (Israel state) ID is used for all sorts of public services available to Jews and non-Jews alike. So, are you advocating the USA should implement the exact same sort of ID?”

            An administrative ID? I’m not a fan of it in the US; it’s a First Amendment problem. But if you’re asserting that ID are not commonly used, you’re simply incorrect; there are dozens of countries that have national ID card systems.

            “If that were the case, then it would be unnecessary to indicate a religion/ethnicity on the ID card.”

            It doesn’t! The ethnicity/religion has not been listed on the Israeli ID card since 2005.

            “The only reason Israel puts a religion/ethnicity on its IDs”

            It doesn’t!

            “Your denial of the obvious is pathetic, hophmi.”

            Your repetition of this falsehood is pathetic.

            “So why does it identify Jews?”

            Why do we identify people by race, national origin, and ethnicity in the census?

            “Netanyahu and others are demanding that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state. What’s the point, if there is to be no distinction in Israel between its Jewish and non-Jewish citizens?”

            LOL. There’s no point, Donald. It’s not like Hamas says in their charter that they want to kill Israelis, rather than Jews. It’s a complete mystery. It’s also a complete mystery why the Palestinians want to be recognized as a national grouping. I mean, what is that about?

            I personally could not care less whether Palestinians recognize reality or not; the reality is that Israel is the Jewish state. But neither am I obtuse; the point is obvious.

          • Donald
            April 24, 2014, 2:07 pm

            “I personally could not care less whether Palestinians recognize reality or not; the reality is that Israel is the Jewish state. But neither am I obtuse; the point is obvious.”

            This is a recent development and if we’re seriously discussing why they do it, it’s a case of making a demand that they know will stick in the throat of Palestinians, hoping to use this as an excuse to blame the Palestinians for the failure of the talks if they predictably refuse to do it. And of course there is also the neverending display of narcissism that the powerful in a given situation always display–they want their victims to bless them. The Palestinians have to endorse the results of their own ethnic cleansing. It’s not that different from the psychology of the Wall Street types who resent the fact that people don’t worship them or regard them with awe. Having the money is not enough–screwing the country over isn’t enough. They also want praise from their victims.

    • Hostage
      April 23, 2014, 6:58 pm

      Nonsense. The registry, which notes religion, includes Druze and many, many other appellations.

      @ Hophmi, you’re being deliberately dishonest. There is no such thing as an “Arab” or “Circassian” religion, the Ministry of Interior registry employs more than 128 “nationalities”.

      The ID cards themselves include no mention of ethnicity.

      Sure they do. The date of birth on Jewish identity cards use the Hebrew calendar.

      • Qualtrough
        April 23, 2014, 10:51 pm

        Hostage, thank you so much for this. Your comment is exactly why the Internet is poison for Zionism. In the past Hopfmi’s letter would have appeared in a newspaper, or what he said would have been a soundbite on the news, and the takeaway by most would be, “Those lying Palestinians, Israeli ID cards don’t identify people by their ethnicity!” Now we can find out within minutes or hours that Hopfmi left out a crucial piece of information. Once again.

        • James North
          April 24, 2014, 8:41 am

          [[Space reserved for hophmi to try and respond to Hostage]]

          • amigo
            April 24, 2014, 9:26 am

            James, in Ireland we do not have “ID” cards and the only time one is asked to disclose one,s religion is when filling in a census form but that is voluntary.

            We do have a Social security number/card but we are not required to state religion to qualify for that.Our Government manages to provide services to all our citizens without knowing their religious background.

            That is what happens in a true democracy but we all know Israel is anything but democratic.

            Hopmi cannot answer Hostage except with more lies and distortions.
            Defending the indefensible is tough work and leads to eventual failure.

        • hophmi
          April 24, 2014, 11:12 am

          “Now we can find out within minutes or hours that Hopfmi left out a crucial piece of information. Once again.”

          Actually, we can find out that Hostage is simply incorrect; there has been no mention of ethnicity on Israeli ID cards since 2005.

          • lysias
            April 24, 2014, 11:37 am

            It would be easy enough to code that information in numbers or the like on the cards, the way Social Security Numbers’ first three digits (up to 1972) indicate which state’s Social Security office issued the card and number. I wonder if something like that is done.

          • talknic
            April 24, 2014, 12:22 pm

            @ hophmi It seems the DoB on Jewish IDs is according to the Hebrew calendar.

          • Hostage
            April 24, 2014, 1:46 pm

            Actually, we can find out that Hostage is simply incorrect; there has been no mention of ethnicity on Israeli ID cards since 2005.

            Yeah right

            The government has countered that the nationality section on ID cards was phased out from 2000 — after the interior ministry, which was run by a religious party at the time, objected to a court order requiring it to identify non-Orthodox Jews as “Jewish” on the cards.

            However, Ornan said any official could instantly tell if he was looking at the card of a Jew or Arab because the date of birth on the IDs of Jews was given according to the Hebrew calendar. In addition, the ID of an Arab, unlike a Jew, included the grandfather’s name.

            “Flash your ID card and whatever government clerk is sitting across from you immediately knows which ‘clan’ you belong to, and can refer you to those best suited to ‘handle your kind,’” Ornan said.

            The distinction between Jewish and Arab nationalities is also shown on interior ministry records used to make important decisions about personal status issues such as marriage, divorce and death, which are dealt with on entirely sectarian terms.

            Only Israelis from the same religious group, for example, are allowed to marry inside Israel — otherwise they are forced to wed abroad — and cemeteries are separated according to religious belonging.

            link to electronicintifada.net

      • hophmi
        April 24, 2014, 11:12 am

        “Hophmi, you’re being deliberately dishonest. There is no such thing as an “Arab” or “Circassian” religion, the Ministry of Interior registry employs more than 128 “nationalities”.”

        Not at all. The state regards Jewish as a nationality, not a religion, just like all of the other nationalities it recognizes.

        “Sure they do. The date of birth on Jewish identity cards use the Hebrew calendar.”

        They do not. You are wrong. There has been no ethnic category on the ID cards since 2005. Everybody’s card includes the Hebrew birth date, not just those of Jews.

        link to en.wikipedia.org

        • talknic
          April 24, 2014, 12:28 pm

          @hophmi “They do not. You are wrong. There has been no ethnic category on the ID cards since 2005. Everybody’s card includes the Hebrew birth date, not just those of Jews. “

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          The bearer’s ethnic identity can nevertheless be inferred by other data - the Hebrew calendar’s date of birth is often used for Jews, and also, each community has its typical first and last names.

          An amendment to the Israeli registration law approved by the Knesset in 2007 determines that a Jew may ask to remove the Hebrew date from his entry, and consequently from his Identity Card.

        • Shmuel
          April 24, 2014, 12:39 pm

          They do not. You are wrong. There has been no ethnic category on the ID cards since 2005. Everybody’s card includes the Hebrew birth date, not just those of Jews.

          As long as we’re citing Wiki, according to Hebrew Wiki the “nationality” article in IDs was restored by then Interior Minister Eli Yishai in 2011 (and appears, of course, in older IDs [like mine], issued before 2002) , and the Hebrew date indeed only appears in the IDs of Jews.

          link to he.wikipedia.org

          link to he.wikipedia.org

        • David Samel
          April 24, 2014, 12:39 pm

          hophmi, the point of my post is that what was feared in Ukraine – the requirement that Jews distinguish themselves in some official manner presumably so that the authorities would be able to subject them to some treatment not suffered by the rest of the population – has been going on Israel since its founding. Israel has always identified its non-Jewish citizens and subjected them to disadvantages, first with martial law until 1966 and since then through official discrimination sanctioned by law. Do you disagree that Israel has a registry of who is not Jewish? Or that non-Jewish citizens do not enjoy all of the rights and privileges of Jews in the Jewish State? You choose to bicker about ID card dates of birth and ethnicity versus religion but avoid the actual point.

          • Shmuel
            April 24, 2014, 12:49 pm

            Do you disagree that Israel has a registry of who is not Jewish?

            The Interior Ministry’s population registry has never stopped keeping a record of the respective “nationalities” of Israel’s citizens, and even the fuss over the IDs had to do with public recognition of non-Orthodox conversions, rather than any sudden democratic compunctions.

          • hophmi
            April 24, 2014, 4:50 pm

            “Do you disagree that Israel has a registry of who is not Jewish?”

            This I do agree with, though it has a registry of everyone.

            “Or that non-Jewish citizens do not enjoy all of the rights and privileges of Jews in the Jewish State?”

            I think these are two different issues. First of all, again, there are many, many recognized groups in Israel, and not all of them would claim discrimination; the Druze, for instance, serve in the Army and are quite happy in general.

            “You choose to bicker about ID card dates of birth and ethnicity versus religion but avoid the actual point.”

            No, I choose to reject the risible notion that a policy of forcing Jews, and only Jews, to register and pay special taxes in the Ukraine, a country where hundreds of thousands of Jews were slaughtered less than 75 years ago, and then made the target of discrimination after that in the Soviet Union, would be the same as Israel’s national ID card and registry, which is simply a method of delivering social services to all, and is little different from the national ID systems in the dozens of other countries that employ them and use the pedigree information for statistical purposes as Israel does.

            “LOL! So now you say the State regards Jewish as a “nationality”, not a religion. ”

            I misspoke. It notes Judaism as national origin, not as a religion. Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. The campaign to jettison Jewish nationality from Israeli citizenship, which is extended to all Israelis, is transparent. It aims to undermine the concept of Israel as a Jewish state. The fact that, as Zofia says, Jews are registered as Jews regardless of their level of religious observance makes clear that Judaism here is referred to as a national grouping, not as a religious grouping.

            “[[space reserved for hophmi to try and dissemble about the comments from Shmuel, Zofia, and others]]”

            “4. No personal attacks. We encourage spirited, passionate debate, but if you have to resort to vicious personal attack, you’re not advancing the discussion. Stay on the issues.” (Unless you want to personally attack hophmi. In that case, this rule will be suspended.)

            “The state’s registration which serves as the basis for the data in the Identity Cards still indicates the ethnicity of each person, and this information is available upon request in certain circumstances determined by the registration law.”

            And we include information about race, ethnicity, and national origin in our census. It’s for statistical purposes.

            “There isn’t a single citation to a third-party verifiable published source in the “Question of ethnicity” subsection of the Israeli identity card article that contradicts anything that I had to say ”

            You claimed that the ID cards mention ethnicity. They do not. You then tried to wiggle out of your mistake by saying that they include the Hebrew birth date. The Israeli national ID does not mention ethnicity. There is also no requirement that the Hebrew date of birth remain on the card (one can have it removed). There isn’t even a requirement to present the card to the police upon request.

            In any event, the original point of this article was to compare a purported (fake) Ukrainian dictat to register Jews and to have them pay a special tax with the Israeli registry system, as if no other country had an ID system that included pedigree information that identified a person by national grouping. The comparison remains nonsensical.

          • Hostage
            April 24, 2014, 10:35 pm

            Israel’s national ID card and registry, which is simply a method of delivering social services to all, and is little different from the national ID systems in the dozens of other countries that employ them and use the pedigree information for statistical purposes as Israel does.

            LoL! There you go again. The CERD reports provide an excellent overview of the separate and completely unequal or non-existent delivery and funding of social services for the Jewish and Arab public sectors, right down to the hundreds of separate rural communal settlements established for Jews on public lands versus none for non-Jewish minorities and separate and unequal funding of education. The concluding observations about Article 3 are based upon evidence of apartheid or prohibited forms of racial discrimination and segregation. Here is the most recent installment: link to www2.ohchr.org

        • Zofia
          April 24, 2014, 12:48 pm

          @Hophmi: but the official stance on what “Jewish nationality” is, is based on halakhic definition of who is a Jew… I know….wikipedia, but now it is sufficient:
          About “Judaism Test”,Law of Return, problems with the definition about who a Jew is: link to en.wikipedia.org
          there: “In the registering of “nationality” on Israeli Teudat Zehut (“identity card”), which is administered by the Ministry of the Interior, a person had to meet the halakhic definition to be registered as a “Jew”. However, in a number of cases the Supreme Court of Israel has ordered the Interior Ministry to register as Reform and Conservative converts as Jews. The right of people who convert in the Diaspora under Reform or Conservative auspices to make aliyah, or immigrate to Israel and claim citizenship as Jews, is detailed in Israeli law. Until recently, Israeli identity cards had an indication of nationality, and the field was left empty for those who immigrated not solely on the basis of being Jewish (i.e. as a child, grandchild or spouse of a Jew only) to indicate that the person may not be a Jew. Many Israeli citizens who are not recognised by the Rabbinate as Jewish have been issued with Israeli identity cards that do not include their Hebrew calendar birth date.
          Lawsuit challenges Israel’s discriminatory citizenship definition: link to electronicintifada.net

          Did you read your own link? or you don’t understand the problem it raises there?
          The state’s registration which serves as the basis for the data in the Identity Cards still indicates the ethnicity of each person, and this information is available upon request in certain circumstances determined by the registration law.
          An amendment to the Israeli registration law approved by the Knesset in 2007 determines that a Jew may ask to remove the Hebrew date from his entry, and consequently from his Identity Card. This is due to errors that often occur in the registration of the Hebrew date because the Hebrew calendar day starts at sunset and not at midnight. The amendment also introduces an explicit definition for the term “a day according to the Hebrew calendar”.

          • James North
            April 24, 2014, 1:19 pm

            [[space reserved for hophmi to try and dissemble about the comments from Shmuel, Zofia, and others]]

          • Bumblebye
            April 24, 2014, 7:53 pm

            @hophmi

            “”[[space reserved for hophmi to try and dissemble about the comments from Shmuel, Zofia, and others]]”

            “4. No personal attacks. We encourage spirited, passionate debate, but if you have to resort to vicious personal attack, you’re not advancing the discussion. Stay on the issues.” (Unless you want to personally attack hophmi. In that case, this rule will be suspended.)”

            How does that equate to a personal attack?! Let alone “vicious”! It’s merely an amusing razzberry, and perfectly apt.

        • Hostage
          April 24, 2014, 2:21 pm

          Not at all. The state regards Jewish as a nationality, not a religion, just like all of the other nationalities it recognizes.

          LOL! So now you say the State regards Jewish as a “nationality”, not a religion. But before you told David that it only registered “religion”

          “The Israeli insistence on identifying its citizens as Jewish or not has the mirror-image motivation of granting privileges and status to Jews over non-Jews. ”

          Nonsense. The registry, which notes religion, includes Druze and many, many other appellations. The ID cards themselves include no mention of ethnicity.

          And your reply was dishonest, in any event, since the article is comparing the compulsory use of a registry, not ID cards, to document ethnicity or nationality. The Interior Ministry has never stopped registering the “le’om” or nationality of each individual.

          They do not. You are wrong. There has been no ethnic category on the ID cards since 2005. Everybody’s card includes the Hebrew birth date, not just those of Jews.

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          That is NOT what the wikipedia article you just cited actually says about that subject:

          The bearer’s ethnic identity can nevertheless be inferred by other data – the Hebrew calendar’s date of birth is often used for Jews, and also, each community has its typical first and last names.

          An amendment to the Israeli registration law approved by the Knesset in 2007 determines that a Jew may ask to remove the Hebrew date from his entry, and consequently from his Identity Card. This is due to errors that often occur in the registration of the Hebrew date because the Hebrew calendar day starts at sunset and not at midnight. The amendment also introduces an explicit definition for the term “a day according to the Hebrew calendar”.

          So you are still being dishonest. There isn’t a single citation to a third-party verifiable published source in the “Question of ethnicity” subsection of the Israeli identity card article that contradicts anything that I had to say or which supports your claim that Arab identity cards employ Hebrew calendar dates. I’ve cited an article from EI which explains that an Israeli official can instantly tell the difference between a Jewish person’s ID card and that of an Arab’s ID card. link to electronicintifada.net

  14. German Lefty
    April 23, 2014, 5:27 pm

    OT: Here’s a recent segment about Israel/Palestine on MSNBC.
    Finding Mideast harmony through dance
    link to msnbc.com
    Ari Melber outed himself as “liberal Zionist”.
    In the documentary, one Jewish girl said, “If my dad sees me with an Arab, he’ll kill me.”

    • RoHa
      April 23, 2014, 9:32 pm

      ‘In the documentary, one Jewish girl said, “If my dad sees me with an Arab, he’ll kill me.”’

      But the Arab would kill her first, wouldn’t he?

      • German Lefty
        April 24, 2014, 4:37 pm

        But the Arab would kill her first, wouldn’t he?

        Fortunately, I know how this statement is meant. Otherwise, I’d be angry now.

  15. lysias
    April 23, 2014, 6:44 pm

    Speaking of propaganda fabrications, NYT Retracts Russian-Photo Scoop .

    • David Samel
      April 23, 2014, 7:22 pm

      Wow, lysias, I have watched in amazement at the Times’s steady stream of articles skewering Russia and Putin on what seemed to be very ambiguous evidence. It was almost as if they were trying to atone for their negligence in questioning the US rush to war a decade ago by being hyper-vigilant against Russia this time, perverted as if that might sound. I briefly watched MSNBC yesterday, and the talking heads were making fun of the denials from Moscow in the face of this incontrovertible photographic proof. Now this subtle, buried retraction or at least pullback from what was previously presented as conclusively established. I’m not suggesting that Moscow is blameless or angelic, but the ease with which our government can manipulate the so-called liberal news media is astonishing.

    • talknic
      April 24, 2014, 9:56 am

      @ lysias “Speaking of propaganda fabrications, NYT Retracts Russian-Photo Scoop”

      Speaking of un-retracted propaganda fabrications link to google.com.au

      Meanwhile link to wp.me (note the date, before dis-engagement)

  16. lysias
    April 24, 2014, 12:25 pm

    Suggestion that Right Sector militants or members of some similar group were involved in distributing these fliers. From the Jerusalem Post story about the rabbi of Donetsk saying that the fliers were a hoax:

    On Monday evening, as Jews left a synagogue after a Passover service, masked men handed out fliers purported to be from pro-Russian separatists who seized the regional authority building in Donetsk and styled themselves as its government.

    • lysias
      April 24, 2014, 4:26 pm

      Yarosh has moved Right Sector headquarters to Dnepropetrovsk. Ukraine’s far-right leader moves HQ to the east, forms new squadron:

      Ukrainian radical neo-fascist Right Sector group has moved its main headquarters from Kiev to Dnepropetrovsk to “closely monitor” the developments in the east, its leader said, announcing the formation of yet another paramilitary squadron in Ukraine.

      “I moved my headquarters to Dnepropetrovsk. The purpose is to prevent the spread of the Kremlin infection,” Ukrainian presidential candidate and Right Sector leader Dmitry Yarosh announced at a press conference in Dnepropetrovsk.

      He says the vital industrial city in Ukraine, Dnepropetrovsk provides a better platform to observe the situation in Donbass where pro-federalization protests are flourishing, after the coup in Kiev.

      Yarosh, placed by Russia on an international most wanted terrorist list, also announced that he started forming a special squad of fighters called “Donbass.”

  17. German Lefty
    April 24, 2014, 4:30 pm

    One thing all public figures agree on is that it would be “beyond unacceptable” and “grotesque,” in Kerry’s words, to actually require registration of Jews, thereby establishing a basis for treating Jewish citizens differently from non-Jewish ones.

    LOL. Perhaps someone needs to tell these public figures that in Germany Jews are registered with the state, just like Catholics and Protestants. Catholics and Protestants pay church tax. Jews pay cultus tax. The state then transfers the collected money to the respective religious community.
    Also, Jewish communities in Germany receive financial support from the state. The amount of money depends on the size of the community. That’s why the communities want to have as many officially registered members as possible.
    Non-religious and/or non-registered Jews don’t officially count as Jews and therefore don’t have to pay cultus tax.

    • German Lefty
      April 24, 2014, 5:02 pm

      Addition: As Jews are registered with the German state, I didn’t find it all that shocking to read that there were flyers which ask Jews to register with the Donetsk Republic. My very first thought was that they probably want Jews to register in order to be able to give them better protection from Ukrainian anti-Semites.

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