New video shows Palestinian youths killed by Israeli army on Nakba Day posed no threat to soldiers

Israel/Palestine
on 171 Comments

Video of the two Palestinians killed last Thursday at an annual Nakba Day protest outside of Ofer prison show the youths did not pose a threat to life to Israeli soldiers. And a photo set reveals one medic was shot in the head while aiding a wounded youth.

The CCTV footage released by Defense of Children International-Palestine captures Nadim Siam Abu Nuwara, 17, standing with a group of youth before he collapsed to the ground. Mohammed Mahmoud Odeh Salameh, 16, was also killed in the demonstration, along with one other protester critically wounded from live-fire. Abu Nuwara is hit at 48 seconds into the video.

NazzalOn Friday after a funeral procession in Ramallah, I rode to an outdoor prayer ceremony with a Palestinian journalist who photographed Abu Nuwara’s final moments, the youth in the video footage. Sitting in the car with Samer Nazzal, 28, from Raya FM, I was shown a series of images where a medic lifting Abu Nuwara is being struck in the head with a rubber bullet. Nazzal circled the rubber bullet to outline it before the moment of impact. In the following picture, the medic is seen cradling his head.

“Yesterday it was really difficult—they [the Israeli Defense Forces] used real bullets from the start. They were aiming to push protesters back they were aiming to kill,” said Nazzal. “It was bizarre because the clashes were normal,” continuing, “I want you to write they weren’t holding Kalashnikov’s or M16s or RPJs, they were just throwing stones from far, far away and never did the stones strike a soldier,” he said.

Nazzal took the pictures while taking cover with other photographers from live-rounds fired by the Israeli army. Nazzal careened from behind a building and saw Abu Nuwara throwing stones, but by the time live-fire struck him, the youths had stopped. “He was so alive and the next minute he was lying on the street and put his hand on his chest.” Nazzal then snapped probably the most circulated photo of Abu Nuwara just before death. He kept photographing as a group of youth and one medic moved to lift Abu Nuwara and carry him to an ambulance. Then Nazzal noticed the medic.

“I saw him holding his head like he had been shot. But after I went back to my office and I saw a rubber bullet in the frame,” said Nazzal. Indeed Nazzal images confirm the Israeli army did fire at the first responder and others who were attempting to transport the lethally injured youth.

The live-rounds used against the Palestinian protesters at the Nakba Day demonstration and the rubber bullet fired at the first responder comes two months after Amnesty International’s report “Trigger Happy: Israel’s use of excessive force in the West Bank” outlined how “reckless force” from the Israeli army and police since 2011. “In all cases examined by Amnesty International, Palestinians killed by Israeli soldiers did not appear to be posing a direct and immediate threat to life,” said the organization.

Since the beginning of 2014, ten Palestinian civilians have been killed by Israeli fire. Last year Israeli forces killed 22 Palestinian civilians in the West Bank, 14 during demonstrations.

171 Responses

  1. Woody Tanaka
    May 20, 2014, 12:24 pm

    This is yet another murder. Plain and simple. Aided and abetted by the most powerful state sponsor of terror and murder: Israel.

  2. MahaneYehude1
    May 20, 2014, 1:28 pm

    @Allison:

    I thought you are an honest journalist and wouldn’t bring this classic Pallywood.

    • Citizen
      May 20, 2014, 2:31 pm

      @ MahaneYehude1

      So, exactly what has been said or implied by Allison in any way that you contest? And your reasoning?

      • Annie Robbins
        May 20, 2014, 5:49 pm

        he has no reasoning, he brings no links to the table. someone tried to post a rebuttal article earlier with an inflammatory headline but whoops! over 1/2 of it had already been redacted by the posts author. but do they change the headline or the premise of the allegation? heck no!

        it’s the ‘throw it against the wall and see what sticks’ technique. and then he complains he can’t speak freely while engaging in hate speech.

        and all of this while children are dying, being murdered for protesting outside a prison where their children, brothers and sisters, and parents are being imprisoned and tortured often with no trial and a 99% ‘conviction’ rate for those subject to the occupation military court.

        it’s just gruesome.

      • iResistDe4iAm
        May 20, 2014, 11:52 pm

        FYI, the conviction rates for Palestinian suspects in Israeli military courts are actually higher (accurate to 2 decimal points):
        * 99.74% for Palestinian adults
        link to haaretz.com
        * 99.88% for Palestinian children
        link to haaretz.com

        Plus, with a 98.77% approval for administrative detention requests (imprisonment without charge or trial), why bother with a trial at all.
        [refer to 1st link above]

        Finally, with summary executions without trial (by snipers, death squads & warplanes in residential areas) on the increase, there won’t be a need for a “legal process” …except to keep the donors happy.

    • Hostage
      May 20, 2014, 2:37 pm

      @Allison:

      I thought you are an honest journalist and wouldn’t bring this classic Pallywood.

      I think your sock puppet account should be closed down. This isn’t a forum for hate speech. Despite the nonsensical statement from the IDF about “tendentious editing”, it is abundantly clear to anyone with professional military training that the use of deadly force was not justified in either of these two cases, no matter what else was happening there that day.

      • Mayhem
        May 21, 2014, 11:14 pm

        From JPost link to jpost.com

        “Responding to the new video, the IDF Spokesperson Unit said, “On Thursday, an illegal and violent disturbance occurred in Beitunia. The
        said video is edited in a tendentious manner and does not reflect the level of violence that occurred at the disturbance.”

        “The military added that an initial check of the incident and interviews of security personnel who dealt with it found that “no live fire” was used. At the same time, the military prosecution has ordered Military Police to launch a limited investigation into the incident.”

        I smell another Muhammad al-Dura in the wings.

      • James North
        May 22, 2014, 9:45 am

        Hasbara Central moves into Phase 2 of its effort to smear the murdered young Palestinians.

      • Shingo
        May 22, 2014, 10:04 am

        The said video is edited in a tendentious manner and does not reflect the level of violence that occurred at the disturbance.”

        There is no editing in the video. It is one continuous feed.

        I smell another Rachel Corrie in the wings.

      • talknic
        May 22, 2014, 10:46 am

        @ Mayhem “I smell another Muhammad al-Dura in the wings”

        Nothing was proven against the Palestinians in the French court case if that’s the ziopoop you’re thinking of wading around in pal

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 22, 2014, 11:04 am

        “I smell another Muhammad al-Dura in the wings.”

        I agree. The I”D”F murdered these youths in cold blood, just like they murdered Muhammad al-Dura in cold blood and will then deny it, just as they deny their blood-thirsty actions in the killing of al-Dura, and in the process commit the real, modern blood libel.

      • adele
        May 22, 2014, 11:27 am

        Thanks for the quote Mayhem, I’m using it now in a separate venue to illustrate how duplicitous and untrustworthy the Israeli Govt is. I dare say, despite your name you do prove to be most useful at times. Cheerio.

        PS: in your reference to the child Muhammed al-Dura, are you implying that once again the Israeli Government is covering up murder by its own occupying forces? Just need it for the record.

    • Woody Tanaka
      May 20, 2014, 3:01 pm

      What a horrible racist thing to say. Damn your parents for not teaching you character or you if you just didn’t listen.

    • Cliff
      May 20, 2014, 3:55 pm

      @Phil Weiss

      You banned Jeff Blankfort but allow a Jewish fundamentalist like KahaneYehude1 to use employ hate-speech like ‘Pallywood’.

      • Kathleen
        May 20, 2014, 11:31 pm

        Good point. Over and over again points the finger with nothing to back it up

      • Kathleen
        May 20, 2014, 11:38 pm

        call your Reps… Let them know we are out here. Cut off all aid to Israel.

      • ziusudra
        May 21, 2014, 8:51 am

        Greetings Cliff,
        ….MW banned…..
        No one pro or contra should be banned. Let it all hang out from all sides.
        I have no problem with any ischcabibel or bubala spreading narcissistic,
        solipsistic, esoteric, fairy tale religious promises of existence to them from God over Mankind.
        ziusudra
        PS I got thrown off Israel Today by Evangelicals because they couldn’t knock me down in a debate.
        Yahude1 & fredman are weak basing their streams on biblical history
        of a Deity remaking creation in their Jewish Image!

      • MahaneYehude1
        May 21, 2014, 11:38 am

        @Ziusudra:

        Yahude1 & fredman are weak basing their streams on biblical history
        of a Deity remaking creation in their Jewish Image!

        Really, Ziusudra? Did you read my comments?

      • Jackdaw
        May 22, 2014, 12:25 am

        Phil, at Hostage’s instigation, also banned Obsidian, .

        Obsidian linked a journal article questioning whether a massacre occurred in 1948 Lydda and Hostage accused Obsidian of ‘Nakba denial’.

      • Shingo
        May 22, 2014, 9:59 am

        Phil, at Hostage’s instigation, also banned Obsidian

        And your evidence of this? That’s right, you have none.

      • Hostage
        May 22, 2014, 11:38 am

        Obsidian linked a journal article questioning whether a massacre occurred in 1948 Lydda and Hostage accused Obsidian of ‘Nakba denial’.

        Yes, that was a blatant case of Nakba denial. I had already pointed out that Obsidian was engaging in Nakba denial and provided a link to the confessions of Jewish militia members who admitted they murdered persons who strayed off the beaten path during the forced march. link to mondoweiss.net

        Obsidian tried to cite a 2005 journal article to disprove the subsequent personal confessions of the Palmach members that were recorded 2012, i.e.

        Obsidian said: Sorry. No massacre at Lydda. See, Myths and Historiography of the 1948 Palestine War Revisited: The Case of Lydda Author(s): Alon Kadish and Avraham SelaSource: Middle East Journal, Vol. 59, No. 4 (Autumn, 2005), pp. 617-634.

        I pointed out “The claim that there was no direct evidence of a massacre in 2005 is irrelevant, since the perpetrators confessed subsequent to the publication of the article. The webpage I cited explains that Yerachmiel Kahanovich was filmed in Kibbutz Degania Alef on July 23, 2012 By Eyal Sivan. link to zochrot.org

        If you have a problem with the comment policy take it up with site operators.

    • eGuard
      May 20, 2014, 4:09 pm

      I’ve had comments thrown out for less. Why not banned?

      • Annie Robbins
        May 20, 2014, 5:52 pm

        i passed it thru moderation hoping he’d get banned for it. if i had my druthers he’d be gone a long time ago. protest! and this was the milder of the two. of course i have not been moderating for hours, perhaps a few others didn’t make the grade either.

    • libra
      May 20, 2014, 4:13 pm

      @Mahane:

      I thought you are an honest potato seller and wouldn’t bring this classic Hasbara.

    • Shingo
      May 20, 2014, 5:10 pm

      I thought you were an honest human being who would do the right thing and stop squatting in someone else’s land after it had been pointed out to you that the land you live in was stolen.

    • Kay24
      May 20, 2014, 5:22 pm

      Since you brought up the word “honest”, perhaps you are so unaccustomed to it, you do not know any different. Here, let me give you the Masters of deception and dishonesty. I am sure you remember this classic by the IDF during the flotilla massacre, it was typical Izzywood:

      • Elisabeth
        May 21, 2014, 1:43 pm

        I followed that story prettly closely (and that is an understatement) at the time, and I never heard of the Navy retracting that “Go back to Auschwits ” audio.
        I am sure it was false (there was also another ridiculous comment in a thick Texan accent if I remember correctly) but whatever the Israel Navy retracted, certainly not this alleged comment.
        If they had done that, would Press TV not have lingered on that much more extensively, instead of just showing a flash of the following, rather vague text:
        Clarification/Correction Regarding Audio transmissions Between Israeli Navy and Flotilla on May 2010
        Posted on 5 June 2010

        That is not much..

      • Kay24
        May 21, 2014, 6:45 pm

        I don’t know if this will help, but I found this article with both tapes, edited and unedited. Professor Jonathan Turley is a credible legal scholar, and will be careful in what he writes.
        link to jonathanturley.org

      • talknic
        May 22, 2014, 11:01 am

        I’ve done a detailed audio analysis of the “Go back to Auschwitz” comment at link to wp.me

        It’s faked, like the dagger photo link to wp.me

    • gamal
      May 20, 2014, 6:01 pm

      “this classic Pallywood.”

      Anyone familiar with M1,” zayek, zayek yaasidi, ya rais, zayek”, will know that “There are victim(s) on (of, in) both(s) side(s)”,

      But none of them are Palestinians, or on the Palestinian “side”, which is “classic Pallywood”, bang bang anti-Zionisms stagger and fall, and no argument was approached in any way.

      Phil probably would have shut down the site, but for the reappearance Of Mooser, what with fatted calf effluvia everywhere, now there’s no chance, the fortunes M1 seem not to be favoring you, have you, perhaps, broken a commandment.

    • just
      May 20, 2014, 6:24 pm

      Take a bow, MY1– you’ve reached new depths. I feel sorry for your kids.

    • Ellen
      May 21, 2014, 7:36 am

      MY are you able to talk away this shocking report on the number of Palestinian refugees killed by Israeli forces?

      link to twitter.com

      It’s always what happens when Colonialism and Occupation goes on.

      Or would you say this is “Pallywood?”

    • Accentitude
      May 22, 2014, 2:03 am

      I see you believe that “honest journalism” can only be defined if it is pro-Zionist. Is that it? Being at the place of an event and documenting through videos and photos, etc…as seen above, is not enough for you.

      Please enlighten us, what about this situation do you claim is “Palywood”? Do you deny that the Nuwara and Abu Thaer families each lost a child on Nakba day due to gunshots? Or is this simply inconvenient to your belief of the Israeli Defense Forces as the “most moral army in the world?”

      As for “Palywood”, this is an incredibly racist term but I’m sure you’re well aware of that and you used it specifically for the reactions it will produce.

    • talknic
      May 22, 2014, 10:50 am

      @ MahaneYehude1 …. I’ve yet to see ANY actual proven Pallywood pal. Perhaps you’d like to show some some examples

      Meanwhile there’s plenty of what has proven to be Israeli propaganda, denial, brutality and out right lies going back 66 years link to talknic.wordpress.com

  3. Zach S
    May 20, 2014, 1:45 pm

    I see no Israeli soldiers in the video or in any of the pictures.

    • eljay
      May 20, 2014, 2:21 pm

      >> I see no Israeli soldiers in the video or in any of the pictures.

      Hmmm…and in videos and pictures of Sderot and Ashkelon, I never see members of Hamas.

      • Kay24
        May 20, 2014, 5:33 pm

        Good point Eljay, good point.

      • Zach S
        May 21, 2014, 8:48 am

        No one is claiming that members of Hamas are in Sderot and Asheklon. In contrast, Allison claimed that this video “proved” that the Israelis killed the two teens. It doesn’t. That’s called “lying,” to those of you paying attention at home.

      • pjdude
        May 21, 2014, 10:02 am

        You do realize most modern rifles have ranges measured in 100’s of yards? No using a rifle to shoot someone is going to be in a picture with their target.

      • eljay
        May 21, 2014, 10:26 am

        >> No one is claiming that members of Hamas are in Sderot and Asheklon.

        Correct. The claim is that members of Hamas are not in photos and videos, just as Israeli soldiers are not in photos and videos. According to your logic, if someone is not in a photo or video, that person cannot have committed the recorded crime.

        It is possible that a Palestinian shot and killed young Palestinian protesters, just as it is possible that an Israeli lobbed rockets at Israeli civilians. But is it probable? In my opinion, it’s not.

      • Zach S
        May 21, 2014, 10:42 am

        @PJdude: Very correct. An IDF soldier may have used a modern rifle to shoot the person in this video. But the video doesn’t prove that. So Allison should amend her article to reflect that.

        @Eljay: I never said that no group “cannot have committed the crimes in question.” That was you. All I said was that this video doesn’t prove that an IDF soldier shot anyone, because it doesn’t. Similar videos of rockets hitting Sderot doesn’t prove that Hamas fired them, because they do not. Do you understand?

      • Shingo
        May 21, 2014, 6:08 pm

        An IDF soldier may have used a modern rifle to shoot the person in this video. But the video doesn’t prove that.

        Only IDF have modern high velocity rifles, so yes it does.

        That was you. All I said was that this video doesn’t prove that an IDF soldier shot anyone, because it doesn’t.

        Of course it does. Only IDF have modern high velocity rifles, and seeing as the victims were unaware of any danger, they clearly were unaware of the presence of IDF snipers targeting them. What’s also true is that there were very few stray bullets being fired in that direction, which suggests the arms were very accurate.

      • eljay
        May 21, 2014, 10:56 am

        >> I never said that no group “cannot have committed the crimes in question.” That was you. All I said was that this video doesn’t prove that an IDF soldier shot anyone, because it doesn’t. Similar videos of rockets hitting Sderot doesn’t prove that Hamas fired them, because they do not. Do you understand?

        The video proves that no IDF soldier was visible when the shootings occurred. I agree completely.

        Circumstances, past history and probability point to the culprit(s) being (an) off-camera Israeli soldier(s). Do you agree?

      • talknic
        May 21, 2014, 12:03 pm

        @ Zach S “An IDF soldier may have used a modern rifle to shoot the person in this video. But the video doesn’t prove that. So Allison should amend her article to reflect that”

        Why? Does the IDF use slingshots and rocks? The IDF have already said the soldiers acted appropriately. Presumably with a modern rifle.

        Keep digging dude… it’s fun to watch

      • Annie Robbins
        May 21, 2014, 6:15 pm

        it is possible that an Israeli lobbed rockets at Israeli civilians. But is it probable? In my opinion, it’s not.

        i agree, however i do think it is probable an israeli has lobbed a rocket at an open field or an empty school and claimed it was carried out by hamas or hezbollah. especially as a provocative measure:

        link to mondoweiss.net

        If social unrest appeared in the news, I would not be surprised to hear about Hezbollah Katyusha rockets falling on Kiryat Shmona the next day. This would immediately shift public discourse back to security. I could not rule out that the Katyushas on Kiryat Shmona were a response to the IDF Air Force provocation of their fighter jets crossing the border deep into Lebanon. I told them that I didn’t have the knowledge, but my intuition as an analyst told me that.

        Everyone was quiet. Everyone was quiet. No one said a thing. And then we broke for a buffet lunch.

        At the buffet, a corpulent man approached me. He said, ‘‘Shalom, my name is XY. I was a media adviser for the minister of defense. This is exactly what we did.’’

      • Hostage
        May 21, 2014, 11:14 am

        No one is claiming that members of Hamas are in Sderot and Asheklon.

        We know for certain that the IDF kills people in Gaza for crimes committed by others, e.g. “Israeli and many international media outlets blamed the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC) terror group for the Eilat attacks mostly based on PM Netanyahu’s unsubstantiated statements. Now the IDF spokesperson is saying that Israel never blamed the PRC. So who is behind the Eilat attacks and why is Israel attacking Gaza?” link to facebook.com See also Escalation in south: IDF takes summer Gaza spin out for 2nd round link to 972mag.com

        We also know for a fact that the government of Israel has a long history of employing Mista’arvim, literally, “Arab-pretenders” to carry-out black flag operations and that it originally had a hand in helping to establish Hamas to foil the attainment of legitimate aims by the PLO.

        Allison claimed that this video “proved” that the Israelis killed the two teens.

        it does, on the basis of eyewitness reports, including the owner of the Palestinian business that provided the CCTV videos. There are also the published remarks of the Israeli Defense Minister, who took credit and said the IDF felt they were in a life threatening situation and acted accordingly. I notice you aren’t hanging out on his website questioning him about that.

      • Zach S
        May 21, 2014, 11:19 am

        Hostage, you seem to be confused. We’re talking about this incident in the video. Not the attack on Eilat three years ago.

        it does, on the basis of eyewitness reports, including the owner of the Palestinian business…

        No. If you use the video in combination with alleged eyewitnesses, then you can (and have) come to a reasonable conclusion. But the video itself is not proof of what Allison said it was, which is why she should change her headline.

      • talknic
        May 21, 2014, 12:13 pm

        @ Zach S “We’re talking about this incident in the video. Not the attack on Eilat three years ago.”

        “e.g.” link to pages.citebite.com

        Know what e.g. means? link to dictionary.reference.com

      • Hostage
        May 21, 2014, 4:08 pm

        Hostage, you seem to be confused. We’re talking about this incident in the video. Not the attack on Eilat three years ago.

        I was replying to your non-response that “No one is claiming that members of Hamas are in Sderot and Asheklon,” when of course we all know that the IDF regularly accuses those groups, sight unseen of firing rockets from Gaza. FYI, after one of those groups publicly accepts responsibility, like Israel’s Defense Minister did in connection with these Nakba day shootings, you’ll find that I accept their word at face value and accuse them of war crimes when they target civilians who are not engaged in hostilities or non-military objectives, e.g. link to mondoweiss.net

      • Hostage
        May 21, 2014, 4:16 pm

        it does, on the basis of eyewitness reports, including the owner of the Palestinian business…

        No. If you use the video in combination with alleged eyewitnesses, then you can (and have) come to a reasonable conclusion. But the video itself is not proof of what Allison said it was, which is why she should change her headline.

        Maybe you are having problems parsing English, but the headline only says the video shows the youths posed no threat to soldiers. The fact that they were killed by the IDF had already been established by Moshe “Bogie” Ya’alon when he said the troops who shot the Palestinians during the Nakba Day protests in the West Bank acted “as appropriate” given that “they were in a situation where their lives were in danger.” and claimed he hadn’t yet seen the video, but that it was faked.

      • Daniel Rich
        May 21, 2014, 6:00 pm

        @ Hostage,

        Again, thank you.

      • Shingo
        May 21, 2014, 5:52 pm

        No one is claiming that members of Hamas are in Sderot and Asheklon.

        Are you going to deny that Hamas fire the rockets that land in Sderot and Asheklon? The fact that bullets from rifles have a much shorter range than rockets proves what exactly?

      • ritzl
        May 21, 2014, 4:33 pm

        Brilliant, eljay. +10

    • Dutch
      May 20, 2014, 2:53 pm

      Surprised? This is the chicken army, man.

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 20, 2014, 3:03 pm

        The I”D”F is no army, and the people in it are no soldiers.

      • Zach S
        May 20, 2014, 3:03 pm

        If there are no Israeli soldiers in the video or any of the pictures, then how can Allison use them as proof that Israeli soldiers killed the people in question, let alone that they were unjustified in doing so?

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 20, 2014, 6:14 pm

        “If there are no Israeli soldiers in the video or any of the pictures, then how can Allison use them as proof that Israeli soldiers killed the people in question,”

        If it’s your position that the I”D”F would let anyone other than an Israeli goon squad member anywhere near Ofer Concentration Camp, then please show your work.

        “let alone that they were unjustified in doing so?”

        Yeah, nice defense: “the I”D”F terrorist didn’t shoot him and if he did, it was in self defense…” Typical excuse making Zionist.

      • Zach S
        May 21, 2014, 8:47 am

        @Woody: I’m glad you agree that there’s nothing in the video to indicate he was shot by the IDF.

        @Blownaway: that’s news to me:

        link to en.wikipedia.org

        @Hostage: Where is the proof that the teenagers who were killed are the same ones who are in this video, or that they were killed in this video?

        @talknic: Because Palestinian terror groups take credit for their bombings.

      • Shingo
        May 21, 2014, 5:56 pm

        I’m glad you agree that there’s nothing in the video to indicate he was shot by the IDF.

        I am sorry you think he said that, clearly he did not.

        link to en.wikipedia.org

        Your link points out that this only took place between 2000 to 2005. And if they were suicide bombers, were are the explosives?

        Because Palestinian terror groups take credit for their bombings.

        So do Jewish terror groups. See Manchem Begin and Yitzak Shamir.

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 21, 2014, 11:00 am

        “@Woody: I’m glad you agree that there’s nothing in the video to indicate he was shot by the IDF.”

        No, I don’t agree, moron. All of the facts demonstrated in the video indicate that he was almost certainly shot by one of the I”D”F terror goons. To suggest otherwise, like you’re doing, is like standing in Auschwitz, looking at the piles of hair and shoes, and denying the holocaust.

      • Hostage
        May 21, 2014, 11:35 am

        @Hostage: Where is the proof that the teenagers who were killed are the same ones who are in this video, or that they were killed in this video?

        Now you are simply raising ridiculous strawman arguments. The Palestinian government, the wire service photographers and correspondents, together with B’Tselem, have swarmed all over the story, the hospital records, and the funerals. We know who the two victims were, the nature of their wounds, and the circumstances in which they were inflicted.

        On Tuesday, Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon said in a statement that the soldiers acted appropriately, as they “were in a situation where their lives were in danger.” link to jta.org

        I notice you are not wasting his bandwidth asking a lot of repugnant, scripted, rhetorical questions and you shouldn’t be wasting our bandwidth here on your thinly disguised hate speech. I’ll repeat: your comment which suggested these shootings were justified (“let alone that they were unjustified in doing so?”) is a blatant example of hate speech in defense of two obvious cases of murder.

      • talknic
        May 21, 2014, 11:49 am

        Zach S “@Woody: I’m glad you agree that there’s nothing in the video to indicate he was shot by the IDF”

        Are you also glad the IDF said the soldiers were endangered and they acted appropriately..

        “@Blownaway: that’s news to me: link to link to en.wikipedia.org
        From Wikipedia link to child-soldiers.org

        “@Hostage: Where is the proof that the teenagers who were killed are the same ones who are in this video, or that they were killed in this video?”
        No need…. the IDF said the soldiers were endangered and they acted appropriately..

        “@talknic: Because Palestinian terror groups take credit for their bombings”

        Who tells us they do?

      • Blownaway
        May 20, 2014, 6:55 pm

        Because Palestinian children don’t have guns to use to kill each other so that they can make appoint you idiot.

      • Kay24
        May 20, 2014, 7:13 pm

        Even the settler terrorists are armed by the zionist government.

      • concernedhuman
        May 20, 2014, 8:34 pm

        What do you think to shoot a person idf need to be at arms distance from the one who is shot?

        That can easily be proved by matching bullets used by idf and the fragments of the bullet that tore their body .

        Look where you coward idf was standing

      • Hostage
        May 20, 2014, 8:52 pm

        If there are no Israeli soldiers in the video or any of the pictures, then how can Allison use them as proof that Israeli soldiers killed the people in question, let alone that they were unjustified in doing so?

        The AP wire service reports and photos said the teenagers were shot by the Israeli border police and they haven’t published any corrections. That “let alone that they were unjustified in doing so?” remark was spoken like a true troglodyte. It would be more than enough in my book to result in a tag-team banning of both you good-for-nothing miscreants.

      • Daniel Rich
        May 21, 2014, 6:08 pm

        @ Hostage,

        Q: It would be more than enough in my book to result in a tag-team banning of both you good-for-nothing miscreants.

        R: As much as I detest what’s being said by said miscreants, I firmly believe in free speech. Think of it like this; what better use than to be able to link and refer to whatever BS they spew here out in the open?

        The truth doesn’t need banning, it only needs itself.

      • Hostage
        May 21, 2014, 7:05 pm

        As much as I detest what’s being said by said miscreants, I firmly believe in free speech.

        I tend to agree, except that Mondoweiss really doesn’t need to publish comments that can be considered criminal, i.e. those that deny, condone, or trivialize the murder of Palestinians. That sort of thing is not protected by the principle of free speech, e.g. Twitter Yields to Pressure in Hate Case in France. link to nytimes.com

        It’s not much of an Ivory Tower issue if you are a Palestinian. The purpose of hate speech is not only to intimidate the targeted minority, it’s intended to generate apathy and help enlist wider public support in breaking down the social barriers that would otherwise protect them. It ensures continued impunity and rallies support for the perpetrators.

        Even the 1st Amendment, which only serves as a limitation on the power of the Congress and the individual states, has never stopped them from regulating hate speech.

      • Hostage
        May 20, 2014, 11:16 pm

        If there are no Israeli soldiers in the video or any of the pictures, then how can Allison use them as proof that Israeli soldiers killed the people in question

        Because:

        Earlier Tuesday, Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon defined the event as “violent, during which Molotov cocktails and stones were thrown at border police officers who felt that their life was threatened, and acted accordingly.”

        He said he had not seen the video, but alleged the images had been manipulated through editing. . . . B’Tselem later obtained the unedited footage, and said there was no indication the images had been tampered with.

        — US to Israel: Investigate killing of Palestinian teens: Following release of footage documenting killing of two Palestinians near Ramallah, US State Department spokesperson says US expects Israel to ‘conduct a thorough and transparent investigation’. — link to ynetnews.com

      • Kathleen
        May 20, 2014, 11:33 pm

        Zach can you see? Those children were not armed and not a threat to anyone.

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 21, 2014, 11:03 am

        “Zach can you see? Those children were not armed and not a threat to anyone.”

        People like Zach don’t care. To them, the Palestinians are subhuman and murdering them in cold blood doesn’t bother them a bit.

      • talknic
        May 21, 2014, 4:23 am

        @ Zach S “If there are no Israeli soldiers in the video or any of the pictures…”

        If there are no Palestinians in the videos, how can you prove the bombing of an Israeli bus, nightclub, pizza parlor etc were not the work of Israeli criminals slaughtering each other and whoever else got in the way? link to google.com.au

      • Ellen
        May 21, 2014, 5:17 am

        Megaphone sent out instructions to Hasbarists to make the case to the public that this video was a staged production. That the killings never happened. Ergo, the motive of Zach’s absurd question.

        Next he is supposed to say that the way he “just dropped” proved acting. Then he is supposed to ask you if you see any blood?

      • just
        May 21, 2014, 4:18 pm

        So nice that you have another target rich environment in which to luxuriate, Zach. I guess that you are now able to move on from denying what really happened to the Palestinian soccer players to denying this atrocity.

      • eGuard
        May 20, 2014, 4:11 pm

        Dutch: the chicken army? Don’t insult the chickens. It’s the coward’s army.

      • Dutch
        May 21, 2014, 6:31 pm

        @ eGuard

        Of course you’re right. But to keep their heroic Gazan campaign in honor – wiping out all these chicken farms – I feel like sometimes memorate this achievement.

      • just
        May 22, 2014, 11:21 am

        wrt chickens:

        “The European Union recently informed Israel’s Agriculture Ministry that it does not recognize the ministry’s veterinary supervision beyond the Green Line and thus refuses to import poultry and eggs from West Bank settlements, the Israeli site Walla reported.

        The restriction on such imports is in line with a footnote within the EU guidelines that went into effect in January, restricting business and trade with Israeli entities located in the West Bank. The EU informed Israel that as a result, poultry imported from settlements would not be recognized as having undergone the required veterinary supervision. ”

        link to haaretz.com

    • Woody Tanaka
      May 20, 2014, 3:02 pm

      “I see no Israeli soldiers in the video or in any of the pictures.”

      Yeah, it’s latest thing from Europe, they’re called “guns” and apparently some of these “guns” can kill someone from more than a few meters away.

      • Kay24
        May 20, 2014, 6:07 pm

        I hate to say it, but some of the snipers, and MANY others, used by the killers in the IDF, are American made, and most probably given as part of the generous aid package we keep sending to these brutal killers.
        link to en.wikipedia.org

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 20, 2014, 6:16 pm

        That’s true. It’s a shame that when an Israeli murders someone over in Palestine, that the US taxpayers are indirect accessories. The AIPACers, Fifth Columnists, I-Firsters, Zionists and cowards in Washington should all be damned for that.

      • Kay24
        May 20, 2014, 6:33 pm

        We give deadly weapons to the brutal occupier, that are used to kill unarmed, and helpless civilians. I am disgusted that our tax money goes to aid and support the killers, and yes, the zionists in American clothing should be damned for it, every time an innocent man, woman, or child, is murdered.
        I guess it is understandable that people dislike us for supporting this evil nation.

      • RoHa
        May 20, 2014, 6:43 pm

        Slightly off-topic, but the Lebanese, Egyptians, Yemenis, Syrians, Jordanians, are used to seeing “Made in the USA” on the remnants of bombs dropped by the Israelis.

        They hate you for your freedom, remember.

      • Kay24
        May 20, 2014, 7:12 pm

        We are complicit in these brutal murders, and the inhumane treatment of these poor people. Whether it is the weapons, training, illegal settlements, or other crimes by Israel, we keep giving them unwavering, and expensive, support. Shame on us.

      • Daniel Rich
        May 21, 2014, 6:15 pm

        @ Kay24,

        Q: I hate to say it, but some of the snipers, and MANY others, used by the killers in the IDF, are American made,…

        R: First of all we they’re marksman/marksmen. Secondly, the weapons maybe American made, not the marksman/marksmen themselves. Although some could have American blood running through their chayal boded veins.

      • Zach S
        May 21, 2014, 8:45 am

        I’m glad that all of you agree that nothing in this video proves the IDF shot the teenager depicted in it.

      • pjdude
        May 21, 2014, 10:06 am

        Untrue it proves it. Unless your telling us that Palestinians are allowed ownership of high powered firmarms

      • Zach S
        May 21, 2014, 10:44 am

        @PJdude: This video proves nothing. It only shows a Palestinian falling over and rolling around on the ground. Concluding from it that he was shot, where he was shot from, who shot him, and that he died from his injuries is entirely supposition.

        @Woody: There is neither hide nor hair of any Israeli in the video.

      • Shingo
        May 21, 2014, 6:05 pm

        It only shows a Palestinian falling over and rolling around on the ground.

        And then dying.

        Concluding from it that he was shot, where he was shot from, who shot him, and that he died from his injuries is entirely supposition.

        No, it’s called cause and effect. The absurdity is that not even the IDF are resorting to your obfuscation.

        There is neither hide nor hair of any Israeli in the video.

        There is neither hide nor hair of any Hamas memeber when rockets fall on Sderot. Your point?

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 21, 2014, 10:32 am

        “I’m glad that all of you agree that nothing in this video proves the IDF shot the teenager depicted in it.”

        False, as usual for you. The evidence in the video and the circumstances in which it occurred establishes, with near certainty, that this teen was murdered by one of the Iraeli uniformed terrorists in the I”D”F.

        Does that establish which of the criminals in uniform did it? No, of course not. However, a competent investigation could easily establish that fact. But in this case, the people who are in power to do such an investigation (1) have no interest in doing it, and/or (2) may have ordered the murder.

        If you were truly interested in establishing that proof, you would call for the Israelis to permit an independent investigator, with full and unfettered access to anything, anywhere, and anyone in Israel and the Occupied Territories, along with the power to obtain even the most highly classified documents, the power to compel witnesses to testify and every other power that the state of Israel possesses. But, of course, you wouldn’t do that, because you don’t give a damn that these people are murdered, that’s why you’re doing your best holocaust denier impression.

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 21, 2014, 11:03 am

        “@Woody: There is neither hide nor hair of any Israeli in the video.”

        Not hide, not hair, just bullets, casually murdering people for sport.

      • Zach S
        May 21, 2014, 12:00 pm

        Not hide, not hair, just bullets, casually murdering people for sport.

        Were you watching some other video?

      • Hostage
        May 21, 2014, 12:10 pm

        I’m glad that all of you agree that nothing in this video proves the IDF shot the teenager depicted in it.

        Once again, you are ignoring the statements made to the press by the owner of the CCTV cameras, who was also an eye witness to the shootings:

        The footage was recorded on the CCTV of businessman Fakher Zayed, who also witnessed the deaths from the balcony above his office and accused soldiers of shooting to kill.

        “I saw about 20 youths burning tyres who then started throwing stones. There were more watching,” he told the Guardian. “There were two groups of soldiers that day. There were soldiers under a vine outside a house to the right of the main road. But the boys were safe from them while they were in front of my office, because the soldiers couldn’t see them.

        “There were other soldiers and vehicles in the parking lot 250 metres away from where the boys were killed, but the boys had pulled back at that point and were no threat to the soldiers.

        “I think there were four or five of them in front of my building. I saw the first guy who was killed walking, but he had no stones. He was crossing the road diagonally when he was shot.

        “I heard four shots of live fire in total. You can tell by the sound,” he said. “In the past, when live fire has been used here they have shot at the legs. This time they were shot in the chest.

        “It was maybe an hour and a half later when the second youth was killed. He was walking away from the soldiers when he was shot.”

        In his hospital bed in Ramallah, after being released from intensive care, Mohammed al-Azi, the third of the teenagers shot that day, said he was unaware of being shot at first. The bullet went through his chest, deflected off his ribs and exited below his shoulder blade.

        Palestinian hospital reports seen by the Guardian say the bullet that killed Salameh entered through the right side of his back, before shattering his heart and exiting via his sternum.

        At the Nuwara family home in Ramallah on Tuesday the teenager’s father, Siam, showed reporters the bloodstained backpack he said his son was wearing when he was shot. He also displayed a bullet which he said had been lodged inside it after passing through the boy’s chest and back.

        link to theguardian.com

      • Shingo
        May 21, 2014, 6:00 pm

        I’m glad that all of you agree that nothing in this video proves the IDF shot the teenager depicted in it.

        I am sorry you are under the delusion that anyone agrees with you. There is no doubt that these videos show the victims were shot by IDF.

    • David Samel
      May 20, 2014, 3:21 pm

      What do you see, Zach? Two guys not engaging in any aggressive behavior being shot to death. You see that, right? What is your point? That because the IDF killers are not in the picture frame, the boys were shot by Palestinians? Or perhaps they didn’t die?

      • Zach S
        May 20, 2014, 3:28 pm

        I see a teenager walking along, then falling. A group of his friends immediately run over, pick him up, and carry him away from the wall towards the direction he was allegedly shot from.

        There was no blood or visible wounds in either this video or pictures released by the Palestinians on the day itself:

        link to 3.bp.blogspot.com

        Maybe he was shot and killed in that video, maybe he wasn’t. But this video doesn’t prove that he was, or that he was shot by an Israeli.

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 20, 2014, 6:10 pm

        “But this video doesn’t prove that he was, or that he was shot by an Israeli.”

        Yeah, it was probably the 3 anti-Semitic Laotians that the ADL discovered, and they simply thought this guy was Jewish…

      • just
        May 20, 2014, 6:28 pm

        heh.

      • ritzl
        May 20, 2014, 6:26 pm

        Frikkin’ amazing. Yet somehow they’re both DEAD from wounds consistent with this unedited footage.

        Collapse, not “fall.” Away from, not “toward” (IDF are clearly seen lined up in the upper left, before the tear gas cloud passes in front of them.). So what does a chest wound from a high-velocity, jacketed round look like at an oblique angle, from a distance, and through a T-shirt? …

        Does your refrigerator light go out when you close the door? Prove it.

        Human children develop object permanence link to en.wikipedia.org at about 9-12 mos. How old are you again?

        I think Zach S’s kinds of comments have to be intentional, manufactured bad-faith. No one is this stupid. But then again, there’s the Darwin Awards. link to darwinawards.com

      • Zach S
        May 21, 2014, 8:44 am

        Ritzl, the claim was that he was shot in the back. He collapses forward. And if you claim he was shot in the chest from a high velocity jacketed round, why was there no sign of injury to the chest in this picture:

        link to 3.bp.blogspot.com

        These are all very little legitimate questions that you must answer to prove your case.

      • Shingo
        May 21, 2014, 5:59 pm

        Ritzl, the claim was that he was shot in the back. He collapses forward. And if you claim he was shot in the chest from a high velocity jacketed round, why was there no sign of injury to the chest in this picture:

        Entry would from high velocity bullets are usually a few millimetres wide. From that distance or angle, it would not be visible.

        Any more stupid questions?

      • Hostage
        May 21, 2014, 12:00 pm

        if you claim he was shot in the chest from a high velocity jacketed round,

        But nobody established that. During the second intifada the IDF used Reuger 10/22 sniper rifles for “crowd control” and supposedly aimed at the legs of demonstrators. But the small caliber standard velocity rounds routinely proved fatal in upper body shots, e.g. link to mondoweiss.net

        It’s an assault with a deadly weapon, and testing conducted by the IDF at Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG) established that fact several years ago.

      • ritzl
        May 21, 2014, 8:00 pm

        Thanks Hostage. I overstated (and shouldn’t have) to refute the point of a lack of a discernable entry wound. The Ruger is much more likely (and makes the same point).

      • jenin
        May 21, 2014, 9:25 am

        Bullet wounds to internal organs often do not cause external bleeding, at least at first. This video shows exactly what it looks like when someone is shot and killed. I am a criminal defense attorney and have watched countless such videos where someone was caught shooting someone on surveillance cameras. So I know

      • Zach S
        May 21, 2014, 10:45 am

        Perhaps they don’t cause external bleeding, but there is usually some form of entry wound is there not? Especially considering the claim that they were shot by some kind of high powered sniper rifle, that presumably deals more damage?

      • Shingo
        May 21, 2014, 6:09 pm

        Perhaps they don’t cause external bleeding, but there is usually some form of entry wound is there not?

        Entry wounds from a high velocity round are typically 5-10 mm wide, which would be invisible from those camera angles and distances. The real damage is visible on the exit side.

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 21, 2014, 11:50 am

        “Perhaps they don’t cause external bleeding, but there is usually some form of entry wound is there not? Especially considering the claim that they were shot by some kind of high powered sniper rifle, that presumably deals more damage?”

        Oh, the old if-reality-doesn’t-look-like-Call of Duty: Black Ops II-then-it-didn’t-really-happen defense…

      • Hostage
        May 21, 2014, 3:16 pm

        Especially considering the claim that they were shot by some kind of high powered sniper rifle, that presumably deals more damage?

        I pointed out above that we may be discussing a subsonic round from a Reuger 10/22 sniper rifle that you could use to hunt squirrels, e.g. link to brownells.com

      • jenin
        May 21, 2014, 12:04 pm

        bullet wounds are far smaller than you think. it’s not like the movies. I would be surprised if you COULD see a wound in a photo like this, and if you COULD see blood, at least within the first few minutes. As an example (one of many), I recently had a client who had been shot in the stomach. There was no visible wound (until he was undressed), no blood that could be seen in the video, and no blood on his clothing.

      • talknic
        May 21, 2014, 12:30 pm

        @ Zach S “I see a teenager walking along, then falling”

        So you can’t see the back pack suddenly change colour at 13:45:10 as though something has hit it, just BEFORE he ‘falls’.

        “There was no blood or visible wounds in either this video or pictures released by the Palestinians on the day itself”

        You need blood to spurt out Nosferatu?

        “Maybe he was shot and killed in that video, maybe he wasn’t. But this video doesn’t prove that he was, or that he was shot by an Israeli.”

        Seems it’s of the SAME INCIDENT in which the IDF say the soldiers acted appropriately. Take your Ziopoop theories and whining to them for spoiling your delirious twaddle

      • The Hasbara Buster
        May 21, 2014, 2:38 pm

        @Zach S

        Maybe he was shot and killed in that video, maybe he wasn’t. But this video doesn’t prove that he was, or that he was shot by an Israeli.

        You don’t seem to get the point of this post, which is that the video proves that the youth was not threatening the Israeli soldiers in any way. The Israeli government suggested he did, but the only video released up to now shows that he didn’t. The post does not purport to prove that the boy was killed by the soldiers because that has not been disputed by anyone.

        Now you come here to present the minoritarian view that the boy may have been killed by others or that no boy at all may have been killed. The place to publish your concern is the websites of the primary sources (news agencies) that reported the story in the first place, all of which disagree with your view.

      • Daniel Rich
        May 21, 2014, 6:21 pm

        @ Zach S,

        According to your logic, all those piles of shoes, suitcases, empty Zyklon B cans, hairs and glasses in Yad Vashem are circumstantial evidence at best, coz I don’t see no hairsplitting Nazis Germans in there either…

    • Bumblebye
      May 20, 2014, 3:23 pm

      Snipers, Zach. Snipers conceal themselves. In this case, it serves their criminal actions as they will probably be celebrated by their fellow criminals in the IOF.

      • Zach S
        May 20, 2014, 3:39 pm

        Please present evidence an Israeli sniper shot these two Palestinians. There was no such evidence presented in the article above, or anywhere else that I can find.

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 20, 2014, 6:20 pm

        “Please present evidence an Israeli sniper shot these two Palestinians. ”

        Sure. They were shot. They were in Israli-occupied Palestine. Israelis regularly shoot and murder Palestinians there. They were shot from distances long enough to not have been noticed before the murder.

      • just
        May 20, 2014, 6:26 pm

        Go ask your IOF buddies– they’re laughing it up at the bar around the corner from you.

      • Bumblebye
        May 20, 2014, 8:27 pm

        link to theguardian.com

        “The footage was recorded on the CCTV of businessman Fakher Zayed, who also witnessed the deaths from the balcony above his office and accused soldiers of shooting to kill.”

        Does eyewitness testimony, watched from his balcony, count?:

        “”There were two groups of soldiers that day. There were soldiers under a vine outside a house to the right of the main road. But the boys were safe from them while they were in front of my office, because the soldiers couldn’t see them.

        “There were other soldiers and vehicles in the parking lot 250 metres away from where the boys were killed, but the boys had pulled back at that point and were no threat to the soldiers.

        “I think there were four or five of them in front of my building. I saw the first guy who was killed walking, but he had no stones. He was crossing the road diagonally when he was shot.

        “I heard four shots of live fire in total. You can tell by the sound,” he said. “In the past, when live fire has been used here they have shot at the legs. This time they were shot in the chest.”

    • Cliff
      May 20, 2014, 3:56 pm

      Zach S is too concerned about the phantom harassment of Jewish students on American campuses to see an actual damn video of Palestinians being murdered.

      You Ziotrolls are all the same. Pathological liars. Inherently dishonest and two-faced.

      • seafoid
        May 21, 2014, 11:00 am

        They are, aren’t they? No systematic violence and if you imply there is you are an anti-Semite.

        It’s worse than 1938 .

    • Bumblebye
      May 21, 2014, 12:48 pm

      SadZach sez:

      “I see no Israeli soldiers in the video or in any of the pictures.”

      Yet we know from the details given, and from widely available reportage including photos and videos, that the area was swarming with heavily armed Israeli forces to ‘control’ the Nakba Day demonstration. We know that the demonstrators were angry youth armed with no more than stones, maybe a bit of petrol to set fire to a few old tyres. Certainly no sophisticated weaponry.

      But SadZach has the gall to insist that just because we cannot see ‘soldiers’ in these videos and a few other pictures, that we should suddenly disbelieve Israeli spox themselves who accepted responsibility for the murders, tho’ they lied about the circumstances.

    • Accentitude
      May 22, 2014, 2:05 am

      The video is surveillance camera footage taken from a surveillance camera mounted above the front door of a store and fixated on the area in front of the store. I know that is a hard concept for you to grasp.

  4. amigo
    May 20, 2014, 2:29 pm

    Everyone should write to Phil/Adam to get this racist zionist apologist Mehane banned from here.

    I for one have had just about enough of his denial and Pallywood suggestions.

    How did that comment get through.

    • Ellen
      May 21, 2014, 3:49 am

      The best Hasbara Central has is a Mehane or Zach. All they can add to the dialogue are insane absurdities and lies motivated by hate. This is the face of what supports modern Zionism. It should not be repressed, but allowed to hang out for the world to see what it is.

      Give ’em more room.

      • Ellen
        May 21, 2014, 5:10 am

        Also Amigo, Hasbara central is currently working full throttle to discredit the IDF murder of these two boys. Their story flying around the internet now is that the entire video was staged and is nothing more than a “Pallywood” production. Zach and Mehane show up here with the same line.

        This is no different than those saying the Holocaust never happened, that the Serbs never really executed 8000 Muslim boys and men over 4 weeks, that there never was a landing on the moon.

        This is how insane the defense of the Zio project has become. They have to just keep on talking.

      • amigo
        May 21, 2014, 11:35 am

        “This is no different than those saying the Holocaust never happened, “Ellen

        Exactly Ellen and Holocaust/Nakba denial are subject to banning.

        These two loathsome apologists are far too cavalier with their attempts to defend Apartheid Israel at any cost.

        I say get them the hell back to Hasbara central and they can start back at square one somewhere else until they are inevitably moved along again.Never allow them to think they are permanent fixtures.

      • seafoid
        May 21, 2014, 11:01 am

        It’s very hard to find a decent Zionist online any more.

      • seafoid
        May 21, 2014, 11:01 am

        They have zero relevant content. They really need fresh material.

    • ToivoS
      May 21, 2014, 4:28 am

      Bad idea amigo. Zach S and Mahani should be allowed to continue to post here. They are continuous proof of the lies of Zionism. It energizes the rest of us.

    • Accentitude
      May 22, 2014, 2:11 am

      I enjoy reading their ridiculous racist comments. Do you know why? Because despite the vast availability of evidence and qualitative and quantitative data available in this information age regarding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, they still manage to stick to their well-rehearsed ADL/AIPAC/ZOA talking points based on no evidence whatsoever. The more that fools like Mehane come to websites such as this and provide their stupid racist comments, the more that they work in favor of raising awareness for the rights of Palestinians by showing how completely unhinged, insane, irrational, and racist Zionist Israelis are. The very fact that they do not see this is amazing. I say let them continue to bark; let them post what they will.

  5. Hostage
    May 20, 2014, 3:44 pm

    The CCTV footage obtained by B’tselem shows there was no tendentious editing involved in the presentation of these two shootings, contrary to the tendentious statement made by the IDF spokesperson. link to 972mag.com

    • Shingo
      May 21, 2014, 5:26 am

      If there had been any editing, there would have to have been a cut in the footage. Seeing as the footage is all from the one camera angle, and no jump cut was visible, clearly there wasn’t any editing.

  6. ritzl
    May 20, 2014, 5:08 pm

    And the circled “rubber” bullet is aimed head-high. Given the snapshot height and the height of the medic’s head, it was also a relatively flat (i.e. close-in; i.e. with enough visual context to make an aiming judgement) trajectory.

    The shooters knew what they were doing.

    Murder.

    Someone should find the relatives of these shooters in the US and/or EU and pay them a visit. Not to harm, but just to ask why their relatives seem so at ease with killing Palestinians. Try to get a sense of what kind of family background enables and allows this ‘Palestinians as sport targets’ mentality.

    • ritzl
      May 21, 2014, 8:17 pm

      The other interesting analysis/forensic possibility from the “rubber” bullet frame is that, given the sun angle in the image, there is a shadow of the bullet somewhere on the ground just below it. Whether it’s discernable or not is for smart people to determine, but if it is discernable it would clock the position of the shooter from the medic’s head.

  7. James North
    May 20, 2014, 5:39 pm

    Hasbara Central is very worried about Allison’s excellent and painful first-hand report. They’ve already sent over 2 people: one of the Mahanes, to threadjack, and Zach S. Who’s next?

    • Kay24
      May 20, 2014, 5:55 pm

      Hasbaracuda central is very worried these days. The Haaretz article on this subject was teeming with the little gnats, all claiming (must be talking point, and buzz words, of the day) that it was a doctored tape. It seems this commenter is doing exactly that.

    • Denis
      May 20, 2014, 7:29 pm

      Who’s next? Well, I’ll take the bait, at the risk of getting lynched by this MW mob. I agree that the images are very upsetting, but no matter how upsetting something is, there’s always room for skepticism.

      A couple of points: There are other reports — the Guardian for instance — that point out that the IDF was only about 200 yards away in a parking lot, probably what the man in the white shirt was referring to. That is not the sort of range you need a sniper. If that kid was shot by an IDF live round, it would have most likely been by an M-16 or some version thereof, which is what the IDF carries. As one with more than my share of experience with combat and M-16’s, I can pretty much guarantee you that a person who is hit in the chest w/ an M-16 round a) does not fall forward toward the shot, b) is very unlikely to put his hand out to catch his fall, and c) leaves copious amounts of blood. A fatal shot to the chest is pretty much going to knock the victim off of his feet and leave a gaping hole. And so the skeptic in me says notes that that was a very unusual fall and that bullet wounds bleed.

      We can see in the film that there were three cameramen at the ready who rushed up to where the young man was lying, so there should be some very clear video footage out there somewhere showing either his chest wound or the exit wound. If anyone has a link to that close-up footage, please post it and we’ll put this issue to rest.

      Second, catching a crystal clear picture of a bullet in mid-flight in ambient light with a standard camera? BS.

      Most digital camera shutter speeds are no faster than 1/4000. With a bullet traveling at 600m/sec, it would travel 150 millimeters in that time — you wouldn’t even see the blur. Those photos of bullets in mid-flight like the ones you see in your NRA monthly magazine are normally taken with the shutters fixed open (or at a very slow speed) and strobe lights with incredibly fast triggers that produce a virtual shutter speed of, like, 1/2,000,000 sec. There may be newer camera gear with digital shutters that fast, but I’ve never heard of any.

      Here’s a discussion on photographing bullets at home using commercially available strobe or flash triggers:
      link to diyphotography.net

      My point is, no news guy with a handheld digital camera is going to catch a bullet in mid-flight. And so that photo with the bullet circled causes me to think in terms of photoshop. If that offends you, well . . . you’ll just have to be offended.

      I agree with you folks that the “pallywood” comments don’t help. OTOH legitimate comments about there being no blood visible are valid. Maybe there’s an explanation. Would love to hear it. That’s what intelligent discussion is about. But skepticism is not hasbara. It’s about some people having a high threshold for being duped and demanding that very serious allegations like these at least comport with common sense.

      But having said all that, just so annie and the others don’t start calling me a GoI shill, here’s a YouTube that talknic made of my analysis of IDF photoshopping the Mavi Marmara debacle that proves my cred as an anti-habarista who thinks the IDF are a bunch of dangerous dicks.

      link to youtube.com

      OK, so let the echo chamber rip . . .

      • SQ Debris
        May 21, 2014, 12:57 pm

        Denis is completely correct. The international community should request that a committee of cinematographers and forensic specialists be invited to the site of intended IDF murders well in advance of the event so that they can position equipment to thoroughly document the crime. That will clear things up. Incidentally, how many photographs are there of the inside of a Nazi gas chamber in operation? In the lack of any photographs of Jews or others actually caught at the moment of death in a gas chamber, can we conclude that no such thing ever happened? Even if there were photos, it’s possible that they might just be faking it. And even if it wasn’t faked, the camera can’t be two places at once, so how could you establish who actually introduced the gas into the chamber? It comes down to solipsism, “the worst of all Bullshit philosphy” (Robert G. Brown 2007-12-17)

        In 1989 I was attempting to film Israeli soldiers shooting kids in the center of Gaza City. You either get the shooter in the shot or you get the victim in the shot. It’s impossible to follow the path of a bullet with a handheld camera, let alone a fixed security camera.

      • talknic
        May 21, 2014, 8:38 pm

        @ SQ Debris “Denis is completely correct”

        Problem. The shot is of what is alleged to be a rubber bullet, which has a far lower velocity 100 m/s link to nature.com

        “In 1989 I was attempting to film Israeli soldiers shooting kids in the center of Gaza City. You either get the shooter in the shot or you get the victim in the shot. It’s impossible to follow the path of a bullet with a handheld camera, let alone a fixed security camera.”

        The shot of the alleged rubber bullet was not taken by a security camera. It was taken in 2014 very likely on modern digital camera well in advance of a camera from 1989. If it was taken by a journalist, very likely on a high quality digital camera, quite capable of capturing the odd frame or two of a blunt rubber bullet @ 100 m/s

      • Hostage
        May 21, 2014, 2:41 pm

        A couple of points: There are other reports — the Guardian for instance — that point out that the IDF was only about 200 yards away in a parking lot, probably what the man in the white shirt was referring to. That is not the sort of range you need a sniper. If that kid was shot by an IDF live round, it would have most likely been by an M-16 or some version thereof, which is what the IDF carries.

        They also carry standard and low velocity .22 caliber sniper rifles, that many people use for hunting rabbits, squirrels and other small animals.

      • eljay
        May 21, 2014, 3:40 pm

        >> Denis @ May 20, 2014 at 7:29 pm

        Good post.

      • tree
        May 21, 2014, 4:34 pm

        Denis, you weren’t reading the article correctly. The photo that purports to show a bullet is described as a RUBBER bullet aimed at the head of one of the medics, NOT a live bullet as was used to kill the teenager.

        Nazzal circled the rubber bullet to outline it before the moment of impact.

        A rubber bullet travels at the speed of 200 feet per second (60 meters per second), well within the capability of a fast camera shutter to record it. At 1/1000 shutter speed it would have traveled approximately 2 and a half inches, or 6 centimeters, entirely within the range of a blurred image as shown in the photo. Its low velocity is one of the reasons it is less lethal than a live round, which as you pointed out travels at much greater speed. If you’d read a little more carefully you wouldn’t have speculated as you did. No photoshop required.

      • Denis
        May 22, 2014, 2:08 am

        tree & talknic
        Thanks for giving this some thought. Good points. I still say no way one is going to freeze even a rubber bullet w/ handheld camera.

        What I’m reading is that IDF uses rubber and plastic bullets that range in muzzle velocity from 75 to 1250 m/s. The older British rubber bullets developed for the Irish Troubles may have been slower. Even at the slower velocity of 75 m/s the bullet would be traveling too fast to freeze. In 1/1000 sec it would travel 7.5 cm, leaving just a long blur of buggered pixels. That bullet is not stretched at all. In fact, that bullet looks like (the other?) holes in the walls.

        People who freeze bullets in mid-air say that if the bullet moves more than a few mm, it’s a blur. They use strobes giving effective shutter speeds of 1/2,000,000. Even if a rubber bullet is 100x slower than a standard 5.56mm, which it isn’t, that would still be a shutter speed of 1/20,000. Don’t think so. Maybe you could catch a blur, but not something as distinct as that image.

        The Nature article talknic links to is quite helpful as it relates to the Palestinian situation. But it points out the rubber bullets are ineffective beyond a range of 50 m. You can see this whole thing unfold from both directions in the YT vid I link to below — no way the IDF was less than 50 m away. They are not even visible and the building isn’t much more than 50 long — you can see hundreds of meters.

        In the vid from camera 02, you can see the whole process of them carrying Nuwara away and there is no indication anyone got hit in the head with anything.

        Here’s something else you might check me on. The Nazzal photos show the young man, Nuwara, on the ground and holding his head off the ground. The video shows him motionless with his head on the ground. Not sure what’s up there.

        And when you look at those vids, try to imagine where Nazzal would have had to have been to get the angle he did. It’s an interesting forensic problem, piecing all the views together.

        Here’s the CCTV that shows the incident from both directions.

      • Accentitude
        May 22, 2014, 2:32 am

        Who says that the kids were killed by a Sniper? Maybe they were killed by Israeli infrantry carrying a standard issue Tar-21 or a Galil assault rifle? Both which are used by the IDF and use distinct rounds. Palestinians have no access to these weapons; PA security forces use the AK-47 & AK-74U, which both use a different size round than the Israeli guns.

        So there is a very easy solution to your argument. The fact is that they were killed, right? We have bodies. They were taken to the Ramallah general hospital and doctors conducted autopsies. The bullets must’ve been extracted from at least one of the victims, the 17yr old. While the 14yr old was shot through the back (reports say that the bullet exited through his chest). So look at the bullets. Match them with guns that fired them. If they came from the Israeli weapons, then the IDF killed those kids.

        As for your other remark: “Second, catching a crystal clear picture of a bullet in mid-flight in ambient light with a standard camera? BS. ”

        It wasn’t a bullet. It was a “rubber bullet”. Maybe projectile is a better name for it since if you compared the two, you’d know that it doesn’t look anything like a bullet. Have you ever held one in your hand? Its heavy. It looks like a steel marble coated in plastic. IDF have been known to cut slits into the outer plastic shell with their knives so that it is more lethal on impact. The circled item in the photo above looks exactly like what a rubber bullet looks like.

  8. Kay24
    May 20, 2014, 7:08 pm

    Haaretz reports that the UN has called for an investigation for these murders, after the video surfaced.
    Will the US veto it in some way?
    link to haaretz.com

    • just
      May 20, 2014, 7:31 pm

      I don’t think that the US can stop it.

      This ain’t the US Congress, after all. It will get a whole lot of knickers in a twist, though.

      tick tock.

    • concernedhuman
      May 20, 2014, 8:44 pm

      UN has called for an investigation?
      I dont get why do we have UN for?Investigation by Israel?
      Israel’s government is the one that wanted this to happen, will it punish its soldier ?
      UN should place international observes on occupied territories or peace keeping forces or at least at such situations.
      Because isreal keeps killing unarmed palestinians and gets away with it .
      UN should appoint a independent team to investigate these crimes .

      • Kay24
        May 20, 2014, 10:45 pm

        Israel will find it harder to get away with it, if the US stopped supporting, protecting, and vetoing any resolution, against it.

    • Accentitude
      May 22, 2014, 2:33 am

      The US isn’t going to veto anything. They requested that Israel conduct a “transparent” investigation. Whatever that means (we are speaking about Israel of course).

  9. biorabbi
    May 20, 2014, 8:37 pm

    This entire incident encapsulates the utter nonsense of the commenters here. A UN investigation. Let’s assume the worst… these boys were murdered in cold blood, without mitigating factors, by the IDF. 2 dead versus 160,000 dead Syrians and no outrage by

    Phil Weiss
    Annie
    Woody et al…

    No, just murky conspiracy theories about Takfiri Jihadists. 160,000 dead humans in Syria, but THESE deaths suddenly warrant a UN investigation and the US cannot stop it. Right. Imagine that: the UN sanctioning Israel. Maybe they’ll link it to racism again. Who gives a rats ass.

    • seafoid
      May 21, 2014, 11:09 am

      How many Israeli murders are acceptable, biorabbi, before the Syrian STFU stats come out?

      Say a Jew is killed anywhere. Can we roll out the Syrian STFU stats ? Or do we start on the anti-Semitism program ?

      Please advise.

    • Woody Tanaka
      May 21, 2014, 11:14 am

      biorabbi,

      F you for suggeting that I have not outraged over the innocent dead in Syria. I don’t know who you think you are, but perhaps you aught to investigate the subject matter and purpose of THIS site, and recognize that people here are discussing the subject matter of the site and discuss other things in other forums.

      “Who gives a rats ass.”

      Yeah, they’re just innocent Palestinians. Not even worth a rat’s ass to you, eh?

    • talknic
      May 21, 2014, 11:26 am

      @ biorabbi “2 dead versus 160,000 dead Syrians and no outrage by

      Phil Weiss
      Annie
      Woody et al…

      Uh huh … link to mondoweiss.net

      ” but THESE deaths suddenly warrant a UN investigation..”

      A civil war as in Syria, is the business of the sovereign state and until a majority opposition emerges and asks for intervention the UN is not in a position to intervene, except where the UN Charter/International Law have been broken. The UN did step in to remove chemical weapons.

      Meanwhile, Israel is acting illegally outside of the extent of its sovereignty, in Palestine, where the UN does have a right and a duty to intervene, it is only prevented from doing so by the precious US UNSC veto vote….

      ” Who gives a rats ass”

      Fine… No need for you to be here pal. Bye o rabbi

    • mikeo
      May 21, 2014, 11:41 am

      2 dead versus 160,000 dead Syrians and no outrage by

      2 dead versus:

      X dead Syrians
      X dead Ukrainians
      X dead Nigerians
      X dead Libyans
      X dead Iraqi’s
      X dead Lebanese
      X dead from the Central African Republic
      X dead from LaLa Land

      What a brilliant argument (They suck!)

      Look anywhere but at Israel and its horrific behaviour.

    • Annie Robbins
      May 21, 2014, 11:57 am

      come to think of it, israel’s hasbaraist have gotten so much mileage outofpointing fingers elsewhere it might behoove one to observe, in the grand scheme of things, how conflict in the region outside israel is used, and has always be used to divert and justify israel’s ongoing crime against humanity which is why it is the longest running conflict in the region, and why palestinian refugees have been refugees longer than any other in the world. so why then, would israel want it any other way? in fact, ine could argue, israel’s complicity in these outside conflicts is willfully intended, and serve the purpose of propping up it’s illegalities and human rights violations.

      as long as the middle east is burning (think neocon leeden’s caldron of fire statement) israel remains ‘safe’ and demands ‘security’. is that how it works, always at the expense of others? it really does look that way. israel is an aggravator state. it thrives off destruction surrounding it as a form of security, it’s sick.

    • Hostage
      May 21, 2014, 2:15 pm

      A UN investigation. Let’s assume the worst… these boys were murdered in cold blood, without mitigating factors, by the IDF. 2 dead versus 160,000 dead Syrians and no outrage by

      Phil Weiss
      Annie
      Woody et al…

      No, your comment shows that you are basically dishonest. There are plenty of us here who help fund Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the International Commission of Jurists, which have in-turn called for the prosecution of any party to any armed conflict who commits a crime subject to the jurisdiction of the ICC. I’ve constantly asked my elected representatives to demand Security Council referrals of the situations in Syria. I’ve even commented about the fact here that the US has blocked potential action in the Security Council, because there is really no legal way under the terms of the Rome Statute to prevent the ICC from taking-up the crimes committed by Israel in the territory of Syria, including the Golan Heights, e,g. :

      The United States agreed to support the French draft after ensuring that Israel would be protected from any possible prosecution at the International Criminal Court related to its occupation of the Golan Heights in Syria, U.N. diplomats said.

      link to reuters.com

      The ICC has ruled that States which choose not to be parties to the treaty cannot use the Court as a political tool “in respect of certain crimes or certain parties to a conflict”. link to icc-cpi.int

      Attempts to improperly shield certain parties from prosecution is actually one of the factors that can trigger ICC jurisdiction. So remember that your outrage over the illegal situation in Syria necessarily must include crimes committed by Israeli officials too.

    • Shingo
      May 21, 2014, 6:02 pm

      No, just murky conspiracy theories about Takfiri Jihadists. 160,000 dead humans in Syria, but THESE deaths suddenly warrant a UN investigation and the US cannot stop it. Right. Imagine that: the UN sanctioning Israel. Maybe they’ll link it to racism again. Who gives a rats ass.

      What point are you trying to make dufus? The US and EU are already sanctioning Syria and arming the opposition. Maybe you might have a point if the US were arming Palestinians.

    • libra
      May 21, 2014, 6:18 pm

      “Don’t wake me up unless the IDF shoots 160,000 Palestinians” says biorabbi.

      • Ellen
        May 21, 2014, 6:34 pm

        If history is a guide it will take something as horrific and unimaginable like that before Zionist Israelis and their brain dead supporters in the US finally recognize the crime.

        For now it is still too easy to demonize and deny.

    • Accentitude
      May 22, 2014, 2:38 am

      All I heard was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah…Syria, blah, blah, blah-bity blah.

      What does Syria have to do with Israel and Palestine? There was a mine disaster in Turkey which resulted in the deaths of 301 people. Are we not allowed to talk about that because a few months ago 6,000 people died in the Philippines during a Typhoon? Are we not allowed to talk about the Boston Bombing because only 3 people were killed whereas in Sandy Hook 20 kids were killed?

      Your logic makes no sense whatsoever.

  10. radii
    May 20, 2014, 8:50 pm

    the serial murder of children (and torture, maiming, and use as human shields) is just par-for-the-course for israel and zionism today

    • seafoid
      May 21, 2014, 8:54 am

      They just kill for fun. it’s part and parcel of Jewish supremacism.

      Shukran ya Walid for this 2007 link

      link to theguardian.com

      “The soldiers described dozens of incidents of extreme violence. One recalled an incident when a Palestinian was shot for no reason and left on the street. ‘We were in a weapons carrier when this guy, around 25, passed by in the street and, just like that, for no reason – he didn’t throw a stone, did nothing – bang, a bullet in the stomach, he shot him in the stomach and the guy is dying on the pavement and we keep going, apathetic. No one gave him a second look,’ he said.

      The soldiers developed a mentality in which they would use physical violence to deter Palestinians from abusing them. One described beating women. ‘With women I have no problem. With women, one threw a clog at me and I kicked her here [pointing to the crotch], I broke everything there. She can’t have children. Next time she won’t throw clogs at me. When one of them [a woman] spat at me, I gave her the rifle butt in the face. She doesn’t have what to spit with any more.'”

  11. charlesfrith
    May 21, 2014, 1:39 am

    Schindler’s list balcony sniper scene.

  12. jon s
    May 21, 2014, 3:50 am

    On the face of it the shootings look totally unjustified.
    There should be an impartial investigation and whoever is responsible should be apprehended, prosecuted and punished, by law.

    • justicewillprevail
      May 21, 2014, 10:10 am

      Impartial investigations do not happen in Israel. And Israel will stick its head in the sand and shout liars at any other impartial investigation. It’s all happened hundreds of times before. The deliberate killing of Palestinians, children and civilians, is fair game for the IOF, who suffer no punishment or sanction. Why would they, when it is part of the overall occupation design? Spare us your faux concern, as if this doesn’t happen routinely, or that israel is ever capable of or interested in ‘impartial’ investigations..

    • eljay
      May 21, 2014, 10:49 am

      >> There should be an impartial investigation and whoever is responsible should be apprehended, prosecuted and punished, by law.

      You’re absolutely right, there should be. But since Saudi Arabia, Mali and African “hell-holes” – Israel’s benchmark countries – don’t always conduct impartial investigations, et cetera, there may not be.

    • seafoid
      May 21, 2014, 11:11 am

      “There should be an impartial investigation and whoever is responsible should be apprehended, prosecuted and punished, by law”

      Israel doesn’t do
      1.impartial
      2. investigation
      3. responsibility
      4. prosecution*
      5. punishment*
      6. law

      * of Jews

      But you know that already. It’s what keeps life on your side of the Gaza fence so fruity.

  13. Kay24
    May 21, 2014, 8:20 am

    B’Tselem reports:

    “B’Tselem obtained medical opinions regarding the entry and exit wounds found in the bodies of all four victims, which are completely consistent with injuries caused by live fire and could not have been caused by rubber-coated metal bullets – especially not when fired at a relatively long range, as was the case here. Also, eyewitness accounts described the sound of live gunfire, which sounds different from rubber-coated bullet fire.

    The army’s open-fire regulations clearly stipulate that live ammunition should not be used against stone-throwers, except in cases of immediate mortal danger. Security camera footage of the incident proves that at no stage were security forces endangered by any of the four victims, or by anyone close to them at the time of the shooting. The footage shows Nadim Nawarah being shot while walking along a street towards the area where Palestinian youngsters were clashing with army forces, and Muhammad Salameh with his back turned in the direction of the security forces that shot him.

    B’Tselem will transfer all the material at its disposal to the Military Police Investigations Unit, demanding an investigation not only into the soldiers’ conduct in the incident, but also into the responsibility of senior officers who were present at the scene for the killing of civilians by lethal force. B’Tselem will also demand an investigation into the military’s highly incorrect version of the incident conveyed to the media.”

    The US has called for Israel to conduct it’s investigation. We do not have to guess how that will end up. The IDF behave like barbarians, and then lie.

  14. pipistro
    May 21, 2014, 8:47 am

    “Please present evidence an Israeli sniper shot…”

    Some say that very few in Hiroshima spotted Enola Gay delivering the bomb. For sure, many more perceived the outcome.

    (You said it right, Ellen, give ‘em more room.)

  15. James North
    May 21, 2014, 11:55 am

    Hasbara Central has been working triple overtime here — lying, distorting, raising false questions, snarking, provoking, threadjacking and so on.

  16. ckg
    May 21, 2014, 2:18 pm

    This reminds of Mohammed al-Dura’s fatal shooting in 2003, where some said the boy’s shooting was faked and that he was alive living with a relative.

    The JPost today has an article today about Avigdor Lieberman’s response to Jen Psaki’s statement. A number of the readers’ comments support the contention that the shootings were faked. They live in a world of denial.

  17. wes
    May 21, 2014, 6:35 pm

    AT 0:48 IN THE VIDEO HE TOOK THE DIVE <SOCCER PLAYER STYLE ARMS IN FRONT TO CATCH HIS FALL.

    more interesting than that is the fat guy with white t shirt to the right looking for him to arrive,you can sense the anticipation.wonder if it is the same guy in the intro

    just saying imho but that does detract from the other brutalities

    shot in the chest,entry and exit wound,and still manages to lift his head up in 2 photos

    rubber bullet circled in red not on same level as medic,s head,and anyway it is a mark on the door

  18. wes
    May 22, 2014, 3:13 am

    ok found the edit….at 0:31 guy with backpack is the same guy at 0:48 walks the same way dressed the same.

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